Friday, August 28, 2015

BOBBY BEAUSOLEIL WHISKED BACK TO CA IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT

From: Bobby BeauSoleil <bobby@bobbybeausoleil.com>
Date: August 24, 2015 at 10:08:19 AM PDT
To: <xxxxxx@xxxxx.com>
Subject: a sudden shift in circumstances

UPDATE

My family, friends, Spiritual Warrior Companions,

A cruel twist of fate has arisen abruptly and without warning. Four amiable transport officers showed up at Oregon State Penitentiary on Monday the 18th, put me in cuffs and leg irons, and packed me off to California via the Interstate 5 express route, with only two brief pee breaks along the way. My kidnappers were pleasant enough to me, and sitting in the front seat of a Chrysler Town and Country SUV afforded me with expansive views of the passing countryside. Crossing the border between states, I was shocked when the lush green of Oregon transitioned within just a few eye blinks to desert chaparral and juniper trees shrouded in smoke and dust. Welcome to California!

One of my escorts told me that the California parole board back initiated my transfer. The people in Oregon, who said they would have been happy to keep me, had no say in the matter as I¹m still under California jurisdiction. During my telephonic parole hearing last February, the chairman of the hearing panel said that he would prefer to see me face to face when he considered my parole. After the aborted hearing someone, apparently rankled that I had been allowed to do my time in the Oregon system (as if to imply that the Penitentiary is like a country club), said to the press that, since my wife was now dead, there was no longer any reason why I should be allowed to remain in Oregon. (Sigh.) So there were some indications that pressures to have me returned to California were being applied. Now we know why the rescheduling of the hearing was delayed.

Around 1:00 A.M. we arrived at our destination, Deuel Vocational Institution, one of my old stomping grounds. Yep, the same prison in Tracy where I recorded the film soundtrack back in the 1970s, where I studied and taught myself how to build electronic musical instruments, where I met Barbara, and where I was stabbed nearly to death in 1982. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that the music room I negotiated for and led the charge to install in a former barbershop in 1974 is still in the same place and still operating as the music room. Pretty much everything else has changed, retrofit with modern gadgetry, and procedures, mostly security oriented, to make it a more modern and less dangerous prison then it was back in the day. Yet all the staff I¹ve encountered so far wear Kevlar vests. Deep down DVI is still the sweltering armpit of the state¹s prison complex, of that I feel confident.

Having been in Oregon for over 21 years, it¹s unlikely I will be running into anyone I know. None of the staff I knew before are still here. I showed up to DVI in the middle of the night, almost unannounced and my records did not come with me. Most all they know at the moment about why I¹m here is what I¹ve told them. They are treating me as a new arrival for now, and once my records arrive they will figure out where they want to put me. It¹s likely I will be on 'reception unit' status for the next 3 or 4 weeks, and then I will be in general population where I can begin to look into what creative and spiritually enriching opportunities may be available.

DVI is too far off the beaten path for visiting with my family and friends. This is the most heart wrenching aspect of this change in my physical circumstances. I will be able to make phone calls as soon as I get my legs under me. The carrier is a different company, but I¹m told the cost is about the same. The device I bought in Oregon that lets me do emails has also been adopted by Calif. Corrections, so regular communications will continue to happen in that way.

It is certain that I will be able to return to producing visual art, quite possibly at a higher level than in Oregon with the more varied range of materials available through the Hobby program. While there will be opportunities to play some music, it¹s likely that there will be few if any opportunities to record new music, as California is more restrictive that way. Recording new music may have to wait until I¹m out of prison. I consider myself blessed that I was able to record quite a lot of music while in Oregon, some yet to be released, including Voodoo Shivaya, an ambitious recording project I worked on for six years. The last of the tracks for this album, along with a surprise retrospective album, is on the near horizon. On the writing front, there is a distinct possibility that I will finally be able to purchase a portable word processor device, as this system has the history of allowing such things to be purchased. Those of you who have been waiting patiently for my book may be reassured to know that my intention to finish this work has never waned.

Have no fear, our community, is of great value. The love at the center of all we do remains unshaken by the unpredictable turbulence we encounter in life.

Bobby





138 comments:

equinox12314 said...

Matt,

A big thanks to you for providing this, and also thanks to the person who made it available to you.

It looks like Debra Tate (whom he carefully does not mention) got her way. It must have been a big shock to Rembrandt Beausoleil's system to be moved back to Cali. It should make his Parole Hearing (when it finally gets a new date) a much more interesting prospect. Doubtlessly Debra will be there. I wonder if Bobby will be so argumentative in person, or perhaps come across as even more arrogant. He could look at it positively, if that is possible, and consider that the Cali Parole Board perhaps felt that the phone hearings were not very practical and meeting in person could them a more accurate impression of him.

Do you notice in the email the emphasis is more of his 'art' and 'music' production possibilities in DVL. I may be wrong, but I never get the impression with this guy that he is truly sorry that he wilfully ended the life of another musician.

equinox12314 said...

"... remains unshaken by the unpredictable turbulence we encounter in life."

Bobby, nothing in your life will ever be as unpredictable or turbulent as that which you unpredictably and turbulently inflicted on Gary Hinman.

ziggyosterberg said...


Is this guy a self-centered, delusional egomaniac or what?

Someone needs to send him a keyboard without the letter "I" on it. His head will probably explode.

Six Miles From Cielo said...

He's narcissistic!

MHN said...

equinox - laughed. out. loud.

Rembrandt Beausoleil...

Producer of Old Mastur(bator)Paintings.

equinox12314 said...


MHN said:

"...Producer of Old Mastur(bator)Paintings."

LMFAO. Nice one Michael, you are on good form these days. He is churning these ghastly paintings out like a production line. It might be trying to raise cash to pay an attorney to fight the 115 violation (just a possibility).

I would love it if his next parole hearing were to be televised. It would be like a comedy - Michelangelo Vs The California Parole Board:)

Suze said...

::: Recording new music may have to wait until I¹m out of prison. :::

Used car salesmen would call that the assumptive close.

What a treat to wake up to. Thanks guys!!!

AustinAnn74 said...

Has anyone at all mentioned to this man that he's NOT a celebrity?

Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Suze said...

4:39am, Matt? Did you oversleep?

Shorty's pistols said...

Bobby got busted by being incredibly stupid. So it's OK if the reasons for his denial are stupid. Bummer definitely was not a member in good standing with the Manson clan. You can tell that because his ego is alive, well and flourishing.

He got his time by murdering a friend. A friend who helped him and even bailed his sorry ass out of jail. That's the ultimate betrayal, so LWOP is the proper fate for old BB. Gary Hinman was NOT a dope dealer, that's more CM and BB bullshit.

Bob better check the huge ego by the door if he hits the mainline. If he doesn't watch that fat mouth of his, he could be the guest of honor at a little shank shank party.

DebS said...

Debra can insinuate herself into Bobby's parole hearing and other incarceration processes by virtue of being a victim's advocate. She is allowed to speak for the families of the victims when appointed by them as a representative. Of course, this is a calculated move by the LA DA's office.

Debra is a victim's survivor with a direct blood connection to a victim in the overall scheme of what is known as the Manson Murders. As such she creates an enormous sympathy factor. Most of here at the blog, the writers as well as our commenters, know that Debra has a moral compass that needs a major amount of recalibration. She is very much like Bobby in that respect, narcissistic and prone to closing her eyes to sex crimes against children.

Bobby has his child spanking fetish and Debra has her sex offender buddy, Don Wilson who was convicted of lewd and lascivious acts against a child under 14, employed as her assistant.

Unfortunately there is not a single mainstream news agency that will pick up on Debra's unsavory choice of associates because she is a victim survivor of the most celebrated crime of the 20th century. It's not nice to pick on the victim survivors so she will continue to be the face of opposition at parole hearings. It gives you an idea of how low the LA DA's office is willing to stoop.

AustinAnn74 said...

Thank you. I get so sick of people blaming Gary for his own torture & murder.

Mr. Humphrat said...

I know a watched pot never boils but it would be a good time for Col.
to elaborate on his tour of the Straight Satan's collection where he
came to the conclusion that Hinman's murder was 100% about drugs.
I agree that BB is a narcissist or appears to be so and I love the
suggestion that they send him a typewriter with the "I" missing.
Still, I do agree to some extend with Dawes's feelings on BB and the
others. And it must be really surreal to be whisked away from your
home of 21 years without warning and sent back to a long ago haunt.

Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matt said...

I have yet to be convinced that Hinman was a drug dealer - at least beyond selling personal amounts to friends to cover his own expenses. That's not the textbook meaning of drug dealer to me. So far, I have seen no positive proof worthy of swaying my opinion.

Hinman though was indeed tortured. Over the course of 3 days he was beaten, sliced, had his face stitched with DENTAL FLOSS (without anesthetic, mind you), stabbed twice and suffocated with a pillow. If that doesn't meet your definition of torture then I guess I won't be able to convince you.


AustinAnn74 said...

Word...

D. LaCalandra said...

Well there is one official police document that names Hinman as a supplier of drugs to The Family from '68. Bugliosi himself, much to my shock, said Hinman supplied them with drugs.

Regardless, dealer or not, it doesn't mean there wasn't some transaction. If I sell a used car, that doesn't make me a cars alesmen nor does selling her cookies every so often at fairs makes your Aunt Tilly a baker. People have very strict and often unrealistic ideas of what a drug dealer is. Maybe from watching too much Scarface.

Anyway, is there hardcore proof that Bill Garreston was a homosexual? rent boy or "boy toy" to Altobelli? None. Highly possible, but that's largely an assumption based on a few small possibilites. But that didn't stop you Ann from openly and boldly proclaiming that to be the case. So enough of the hypocrisy.

Nobody is blaming Hinman for anything.

..and Bobby Beausoleil like it or not is a bit of a minor celebrity, having appeared in of Kenneth Anger's best films and doing the music for Lucifer Rising. There are plenty of people who love those recordings who don't care very much at all for what path Bobby Beausoleil took in his life.

Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matt said...

D. LaCalandra said...

Anyway, is there hardcore proof that Bill Garreston was a homosexual? rent boy or "boy toy" to Altobelli? None. Highly possible, but that's largely an assumption based on a few small possibilites. But that didn't stop you Ann from openly and boldly proclaiming that to be the case. So enough of the hypocrisy.


We covered that in a fairly recent post.

To quote myself again:

"...this is not about gay-bashing, or even speculation for the sake of fulfilling my secret dream of being a tabloid reporter. What it is about is uncovering every rock we can find to make sense of what just doesn't make sense. It is also about uncovering who was at the house previous to the murders and what their relationship was to the victims"

So, what is that "one official police document that names Hinman as a supplier of drugs to The Family"?

Matt said...

Dawes, I was agreeing with you on the drug dealer premise.

I won't try to convince you on the torture definition. I'll agree to disagree.


Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matt said...

And Dawes - the coroner says that the ear/face wound is possibly fatal--isn't that indicative of bleeding to death? So they had to have staunched the bleeding in some manner or he would have bled out. No? And the fact that Coroner failed to mention the dental floss doesn't mean that it didn't exist because they also never mentioned Sharon Tate's baby in the initial autopsy report. Both could have been careless omissions.


D. LaCalandra said...

I think was from the nude hippies arrest in April of '68. Sandy Good got busted with pills and named Hinman as the supplier. Now either there is truth to Hinman suppling drugs or it means they just liked to name Hinman as being a drug supplier despite him not being one. I tent to believe the former.

Matt said...

D. LaCalandra, do you know where we can read that. I'd be interested in doing so.

D. LaCalandra said...

I tried to look but I can't find it. I'm sure somebody else here can dig it up.

Trilby said...

If various hackers under the banner of "Anonymous" can hack and post info from the Ashley Madison site; then why can't a talented blogger post the pics of Debbie Tate "with" Pic Dawson at 10050 Cielo? You know, the ones from her time as "mistress of the house" while Sharon was away? There must have been pics of her fucking John Phillips, too, as he told me about that over a quarter-century ago.

It is time for an investigative journalist to look into her famewhoring and abuse of well-intended laws that the heroic Doris Tate fought so hard for. Debbie was a huge handful to her family as a teenager. Now I'll reveal something else I was told: Sharon found out about all the shenanigans at Cielo in her absence, & was fairly upset with Debbie the week she died. (She also was told that week about the affair Michelle Phillips had with Roman.). Debbie was told not to come to Cielo that Friday night, but it didn't have a damn thing to do with Sharon being too "tired" to see her.

I don't know how that classless cunt ended up in the gracious Tate family. And don't even think of coming after this blog, "Vera". I'll have an affidavit sworn out so fast (re: the facts of the conversation and what I was told) you and Debbie won't even have time to blink.

P.S. Paragraph formatting used to appease my critics.

ColScott said...

Matt
Let's see how long it takes me to respond to some of this nonsensical postings.
Begin
>Equinox- I do not think you have any idea what Bobby feels, what forty seven years in prison means or how BB survives. Sorry you lack empathy for someone. I don't think he will be released (it was originally a death sentence) but I know he feels remorse and is sorry.
>ziggy- he is writing a letter here clearly to friends. Do you normally talk in the third person?
>Six Miles - so you are a shrink? do you do Skype sessions?
> AustinAnn- in some circles he is in fact a celebrity albeit a minor one
>Dawes- based on the law (not my opinion) since he is currently serving a life sentence had he not been a "Manson" guy he should have been out in the 80s
> Shorty- your second sentence shows your lack of intelligence and education and station in life so responding to you is pointless. PS Hinman sold drugs- FACT
>DebS- I believe Orca may attend as a rep of the Hinman's (who never did fuck all to support their drub dealing relative for 4 decades) but cannot speak since this is for family of the victim not morbidly obese mail men. She can however get more TV time for her Save the Whales campaign by appearing
> Austin- stating that someone is a drug dealer means they deserve to die? What reality is that? Robin/Vera is a hag, a shit human,a homophobic piece of shit but she does not deserve to die.
>Dawes- he was a drug dealer. Arguably keeping to tied up all weekend and beating on you IS torture
> Humphrat - did you know that contemporaneously people testified about the drug deal? They did. Not something Bobby invented later.
> D LaCalandra- a smart comment did someone write it for you?
That's twelve minutes I will never have again.
Gotta love anonymous internet squids who think they know shit.
Now if only Max could show up to denigrate Sharon's marriage some more based on a bi polar, wife abusing nutjob my morning will be fulfilled.



DebS said...

DLC What you are referring to is the May 2, 1968 arrest for drugs that occurred on Summit Trail in Topanga. This arrest report came up in my post about Robert Earl Murray earlier this month.

http://www.mansonblog.com/2015/08/robert-earl-murray.html

In the post I linked to the arrest report at Manson's Backporch. Page 4 of that report has Sandy Good stating that the drugs that were found in the bust were obtained from Gary Hinman. While Gary was in a police report as having been a drug supplier that information came from a Family member not from the sheriff's department. As far as I know Gary was never arrested for supplying anyone drugs so the information is not proof of anything.

ColScott said...

Trilby
I have seen those fotos but I don't think you can hack non digital fotos.
How did you learn about Phillips?

ColScott said...

DebS
You want proof? Could you even handle the proof? Tom O'Neill says he found proof of things and where is his magnum opus?

The point you omit Sistah is that the claim is that BOBBY made it up years later. Many people talked about it AT THE TIME. This vastly increases believability

Vera Dreiser said...

Trilby honey, I got no prob with you stating Debra fucked John Phillips, for all I know she did. Vera fucks a lot of people she forgets fucking, sometimes she thinks she even forgets how to fuck. So what the fuck?
And I personally don't care what Debra did with Pic Dawson, if anything, who am I -- who are YOU -- to judge?
While I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that Sharon might have been upset with whatever Debra did at the house, though I find myself quite skeptical, what difference does that make as well?
If true, I might've been upset with my little sis, too.
But what on earth does any of that have to do with what I thought this blog was intended to uncover -- what really happened over two nights in August in 1969?
If you show me that Debra's fucking John P., Pic or Billy Doyle for that matter LED to the murders, then I'm all ears. If not, shut the fuck up, honey, you're wasting all of our time.
Why not discuss what really happened instead of who Debra fucked, or whether her sister, even family, was upset with her -- who cares?!
That's all this blog is good for anymore, judging others.
Judge, judge, judge. If Vera got judged for all the bobby soxers she fucked in her days of chiffon gowns and crinoline they'd put her pussy in shackles.
You millenalials are all pathetic. (Yeah, Vera's judging).
When better answers can be had -- like showing PROOF that PJ Tate chased the bikers back to Spahn. Guess that's not gonnna happen -- and YES, the truth of that, or lack thereof -- is essential to this conversation.
If it happened, why didn't the LAPD follow up? PJ talked to Bob Helder and Frenchie EVERY SINGLE DAY until the arrests were announced.
But Matt allows this myth/bullshit to continue, muddying up the truth of the case more than even his supposed villain, the Bug.
Funny how quick Matt is to debunk and take apart Bug's stories, while allowing a far less credible account like Statman's to go unchallenged.
Perhaps if Bug had agreed to communicate with Matt, this blog would be celebrating HIM and HELTER SKELTER, rather than Statman and Restless Souls.
Now have at it, losers.
And Trilby, spread your goddamed legs and have a good one for Vera, who can't anymore without the damned cobwebs fucking everything up.

Trilby said...

Colonel: From John himself, who was close to someone dear to me. I didn't understand the significance/context fully at the time, until your post about the roll of film.
I have a portable scanner that I'd be glad to send to you. ;)

DebS said...

Col you are more or less correct regarding Debra's involvement with the parole hearings. If a victim's family member is present to speak Debra is relegated to chief hand holder as a victim's advocate. Debra has spoken on the behalf of Gary's family at Bobby's hearings in the past when none of Gary's family members were present.

Vera Dreiser said...

DebS said...
Col you are more or less correct regarding Debra's involvement with the parole hearings. If a victim's family member is present to speak Debra is relegated to chief hand holder as a victim's advocate. Debra has spoken on the behalf of Gary's family at Bobby's hearings in the past when none of Gary's family members were present.

And god bless Debra for that. And if it leads to her getting fucked some more, Vera's all fucking for it. Bring on the Biebs and Wiz Kaleefa (Vera's fantasy three-way).

DebS said...

Col what Tom O'Neill says is not proof of anything for me. Once burned twice shy. Hearsay is hearsay and not admissible in court. People say lots of shit, not all of it is true.

D. LaCalandra said...

So because a Family member said something, it's not proof? The police themselves have to declare it as being so? That's silly. That bust wasn't about Hinman or drugs, so why would they even elaborate on that. You know nearly everything you think about this case is based on what so-called Family members have said. Every other thing you think you know about Hinman is based on what they said, as well as DeCarlo and Springer. I guess it all comes down to whatever you want to believe and the conclusion you already have. Arguments rarely shape conclusion. Sadly people work backwards on that.

In the eyes of the law, "why" doesn't matter. There is no justification for the murder, unless in self defense and that reality is set in the court room, not by the police. Why the issue of drugs never came up is always asked and it's because nobody gave a shit about why anything happened. People were murdered and the question is never why, but who did it.



AustinAnn74 said...

Huh?

Trilby said...

Vera, your last line actually was a classic and cracked me up.

And it's not about "judging", per se. "Judging" has become the new euphemism for "stating facts" or "offering an opinion", & it's a backwards slap with the intent of discouraging open discourse and debate, quite frankly. Hey, when I was 17, I was sleeping with a 36-year old musician. I miss the 70s. I'm talking about Debbie's utter hypocrisy, although I think you already know that. I don't believe for a minute her "crusade" has much to do with Sharon at all. I also don't know what her grief feels like, but I think (opinion) that it's probably like a jumbled snarl of tangled rubber bands. A mixture of missing her sister, probably knowing she was exasperated with her so possibly some guilt?, and I think resentment because her ticket to the future she wanted was gone.

But, again my opinion: Debbie's appearances at the hearings, her recruitment of other family members, etc. are 90% driven by self-aggrandizement. And don't even get me started on Patrick Sequierra (sp.?).

I think Doris and Paul Tate were heroes, as was Patti. And Patti's graciousness and love for her sister shone at the hearings she appeared at. C'mon, they would all have chosen Alisa Statman to represent the family. Not Debbie.

Matt said...

Robin, what exactly is it that makes you so hateful of Statman that you are nothing short of obsessed with her? An obsession that has spanned two fucking decades. An obsession that you seemingly spend your days thinking about. An obsession which caused you to write up a dossier on her (see the Col's post) only to be grabbed by the scruff of your shirt and tossed out of Paul Tate's house when presented with said dossier. Is that the same type of dossier on Nelson that you befriended Stimson for? Don't you have better things in life to do. Like for instance, having a life?

They say that there are three reasons for someone to hate another as much as you hate Statman:
1) They want to be them.

2) They hate themselves.

3) They see them as a threat.

I suspect that your obsession with Statman is all three, but should we tack on because you're jealous of her? Jealous that she leads a full and productive life? Jealous of her relationship with Patti Tate? Jealous that she wrote a book when you can't even write a comprehensible blog post? I mean, really, what the F@#K is it?

You once asked George to help with your dossier on Nelson, but now you badmouth him. Oh wait, he wrote a book. That's right... should have known.




Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trilby said...

... And... just let me make it clear that I don't think there is any doubt that Debbie loved Sharon. Love is a whole big mess of emotions and ups-&-downs, that's just the human condition. Her book of photos of Sharon was a beautiful tribute.

But Sharon, Doris, & Patti Tate's legacy runs the risk of being tarnished by Debra's mugging for the cameras and making a mockery of the hard-won rights of victim's family members to appear at parole hearings. What's next - an appearance by Abigail's second cousin twice-removed? And of course, Debbie by her side for "moral support" (= camera time). Hell, the possibilities are unlimited thanks to ancestry.com! And Barbara Hoyt... Stop. Just stop already.

DebS said...

D. LaCalandra said...
So because a Family member said something, it's not proof? The police themselves have to declare it as being so? That's silly. That bust wasn't about Hinman or drugs, so why would they even elaborate on that. You know nearly everything you think about this case is based on what so-called Family members have said. Every other thing you think you know about Hinman is based on what they said, as well as DeCarlo and Springer. I guess it all comes down to whatever you want to believe and the conclusion you already have. Arguments rarely shape conclusion. Sadly people work backwards on that.

In the eyes of the law, "why" doesn't matter. There is no justification for the murder, unless in self defense and that reality is set in the court room, not by the police. Why the issue of drugs never came up is always asked and it's because nobody gave a shit about why anything happened. People were murdered and the question is never why, but who did it.
--------------------------------------------------------------

WTF are you going on about? If you have paid any attention to my posts you should see that I am a fact based person. You were the one to bring up the arrest which you could not reference because you mis-remembered and confused it with something else and then got all uppity when I found it for you. Sheesh!

ColScott said...

SEE WHY THIS IS SO HARD

> Deb- learn to read PLEASE- I never said Tom learned anything about Hinman's drub dealing FFS. I just said he couldn't handle the truth CAN YOU?
> Robin- yeah, why would it matter that Orca fucked the Mama Cass's drug dealer when she was underage and he was the first suspect in her sister's slaughter.

Matt you CAN ban this cunt's IP you know!

>Trilby- I don't actually HAVE these photos

> D LaCalandra- another intelligent post, your ghost writer is knocking them out of the park today

> Trilby - someone should ask Statman, I think she IS the Tate family designee

Vera Dreiser said...

Yeah, except I ain't Robin for the zillionth time and I think even YOU know that but you're delighted to user it as a smokescreen to enable from not answering my question about Statman's book.
Let that bullshit go (me = Robin) and let us know how Statman answered the question I asked, which you said in that other thread you put to her.
Funny, if it served you purposes, I think we would've heard it by now.
Since I'm not Robin, as George Stimson also believes, and as do so many others, all the bias and hatred you maintain I have against Statman is a figment of your damned stagnant imagination (talk about having too much time on your hands!).
I've issued no criticism against her, only asked her on this site and other sites to back up facts she presented in her book about the crimes and the investigation which she routinely IGNORES. Wonder why, eh?
Find one time I ever personally attacked her about being gay (believe me, back in the day -- and still today, if I could get me some -- Vera has tossed her share of lady part salads and buried her wrinkled little nose in bromski buffets of busty bosoms). You won't be able to find if from Vera. Robin maybe, but not me you tiny little mealy-mouthed man.
All of my criticisms of her -- like you -- are over the goddamed, fucking "facts."

Matt said...

Vera Dreiser said...

Yeah, except I ain't Robin for the zillionth time


Stifle it. That one is no longer being entertained here. Until a couple of days ago I had a teensie bit of doubt, but no more! You are Robin.

Since I'm not Robin, as George Stimson also believes

You can't even tell when you've been baited!


ColScott said...

Robin- you were busted by Matt. 1000%. It's over. "You're not even important anymore"

equinox12314 said...

ColScott said...

"...Equinox- I do not think you have any idea what Bobby feels, what forty seven years in prison means or how BB survives. Sorry you lack empathy for someone. I don't think he will be released (it was originally a death sentence) but I know he feels remorse and is sorry."


@ColScott I can not think, nor can I know, how anyone else (including Bobby) feels. I was making a comment this morning on the post about Bruce's parole when this new post arrived, most unexpectedly courtesy of Matt, regarding Bobby's transfer. I am disappointed that you think that I would lack empathy for someone else, because I am one of the few on this blog who has written respectful messages to you regarding your own circumstances (we in Scotland stand by our own. Period.) I shall endeavour to make my position as clear as possible. If Bobby were incarcerated in the United Kingdom, he would have been out years ago. In Scotland at the moment, he would have done about 12 years out of a life sentence.

Let us not be unduly naive, Bobby, Leslie and Bruce are still languishing in the bowels of a State penitentiary due to the Manson connection. However, he has been returned to California (conveniently) to face the California Parole Board face to face. Now, it may be that the CPB want the opportunity to assess him more accurately than they are able to do on a phone interview with its inherent technical problems. Nevertheless, he has always been subject to the California jurisdiction, and as such, he cannot complain about being returned to that particular State.

I do, not matter what you think, worry about what awaits him in any California State Penitentiary, because from my studies of the Aryan Brotherhood, the Mexican Mafia etc I fear that he may be in danger from the seriously violent groups which dominate in that State. I also believe he may be at risk due to the notoriety of his Manson connection. He is in a particularly vulnerable age group.

Hinman was probably a dealer in his time, but there is no evidence of the Straight Satans/mescaline deal. It is like a robbery which got out of hand and BB was out of his depth mixing with a life long crook/conman like Charlie.

I do not believe that if released, Bobby would harm anyone, and I also apply that to Leslie and Bruce. Over their extremely long sentences, they have well and truly learned their lesson. In the case of Pat, I don't believe she would harm anyone, but her participation over both nights was so repugnant, that I can't see the US letting her walk any time soon. Tex, on the other hand, is to my mind a natural born killer. If you look beyond his benign appearance, he is a psychopath and Charlie tapped in to that.

I have throughout the day been thinking about Bobby's transfer back to Cali, and I don't think (and hope) that it is due to any state jurisdiction bowing down to Debra Tate. She is the sister of one victim; but there were over the period of two nights, seven victims. They simply were not as famous/beautiful as her sister. I would not like to see anyone's future, after 47 years of incarceration, influenced by Debra Tate who at the end of the day has nothing whatsoever to do with the murder of Gary Hinman. Let Hinman's relatives do the talking at BB's next parole hearing.

Perhaps it would be better all round if Bobby's parole hearing be televised for the sake of transparency. It is difficult for us in the UK to comprehend the lengthy prison sentences handed down by the U.S. because we are governed on a supranational level by the European Union, and generally, unless someone is a psycho or has caused a massacre, we are obliged to release them after they have served a determined time sentence.

Vera Dreiser said...

Cut by M'Lady Matt, but restored by Vera(and when I cut the cowardly M'Lady's and Col's shriveled little balls, they WON'T be restored):

Yeah, except I ain't Robin for the zillionth time and I think even YOU know that but you're delighted to user it as a smokescreen to enable from not answering my question about Statman's book.
Let that bullshit go (me = Robin) and let us know how Statman answered the question I asked, which you said in that other thread you put to her.
Funny, if it served you purposes, I think we would've heard it by now.
Since I'm not Robin, as George Stimson also believes, and as do so many others, all the bias and hatred you maintain I have against Statman is a figment of your damned stagnant imagination (talk about having too much time on your hands!).
I've issued no criticism against her, only asked her on this site and other sites to back up facts she presented in her book about the crimes and the investigation which she routinely IGNORES. Wonder why, eh?
Find one time I ever personally attacked her about being gay (believe me, back in the day -- and still today, if I could get me some -- Vera has tossed her share of lady part salads and buried her wrinkled little nose in bromski buffets of busty bosoms). You won't be able to find if from Vera. Robin maybe, but not me you tiny little mealy-mouthed man.
All of my criticisms of her -- like you -- are over the goddamed, fucking "facts."

Matt said...

Robin, I'm not going to tell you Alisa's answer. When the time is appropriate, she will make that public. That time will not be dictated by you or I, I'm sure. :)

ColScott said...

Ban the psycho Matt.

Panamint Patty said...

Yes no salad tossing allowed its unhygienic.

Vera Dreiser said...

Better do as Big Daddy says, Matt. Who knows what the repercussions might be if you don't. (More READERS? More TRUTH? More RELEVANCE?).

Kevin Marx said...

Re Hinman torture:

Torture can be psychological as well as physical.

Whatever your opinion on whether Gary was physically tortured, and I can see both sides of that discussion, I don’t think there can be any doubt he was mentally tortured.

After being attacked and having his ear sliced he was then deprived of proper medical help. Whether or not the wound would have been fatal doesn’t matter, in terms of what he thought could happen at the time – he may well have thought he was going to bleed to death. Even if he “knew” the wound wasn’t fatal he would still have been traumatized, and the despair he would have felt, the utter helplessness, surely constitutes mental torture.

Added to this the constant demands for money and you have 48 hours of psychological hell.

Trilby said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trilby said...

Sorry, Colonel, I thought you had been given the pics. Thanks for the correction.

equinox12314 said...

Kevin Marx said...

"... you have 48 hours of psychological hell."

Well said, Kevin. And it is a great pity that Mary Brunner didn't do a day in prison for her complicity, particularly since Gary took her and her kid in when they needed help.

Matt said...

ColScott said...

Ban the psycho Matt.


No way. I had a blast today. I didn't get shit done, but this is entertainment you can't BUY.



Matt said...

And Robin, because I omitted it in my last reply, please please please don't go thinking that anything you say is true or relevant. You come from a place of hate and jealousy, There's no truth or relevance from people who dwell there.


DebS said...

Col You said (in the part to me)
> Deb- learn to read PLEASE- I never said Tom learned anything about Hinman's drub dealing FFS. I just said he couldn't handle the truth CAN YOU?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, I barely understand this cryptic ditty other than the general idea that I've misunderstood you. What does FFS mean? I could probably handle the truth if I knew WTF you are talking about.

Your previous comment-

ColScott said...
DebS
You want proof? Could you even handle the proof? Tom O'Neill says he found proof of things and where is his magnum opus?

The point you omit Sistah is that the claim is that BOBBY made it up years later. Many people talked about it AT THE TIME. This vastly increases believability
----------------------------------------------------------

Bobby has changed his story too many times for me to take him seriously. Hindsight is 20/20. And what you wrote isn't exactly a shining example of a coherent sentence.

Trilby said...

Matt, your last comment was perfectly said.

ziggyosterberg said...


Bobby Beausoleil said.....

"and then I will be in general population where I can begin to look into what creative and spiritually enriching opportunities may be available."

I thought they didn't put celebrities in gen pop?



equinox12314 said...

ziggyosterberg said...

"...I thought they didn't put celebrities in gen pop?"

That is along the lines of something I said to Matt a good while ago - the problem with Bobby is that he doesn't so much think he is an inmate, more a celebrity who just happens to be incarcerated.

He is going to have to be very careful now in a CA penitentiary because the Manson connection is something which still resonates with the population there. At 60+ BB will not have the same physical prowess to fight off any attack like he did when he was a young guy.

I don't think BB would be dangerous if released, but he is going to have to learn to show a bit more humility to the California Parole Board if he wants to get the green light from them.

AustinAnn74 said...

I'm still trying to figure out when & where I stated that people that deal drugs deserve to die. I don't wish anything like that on anyone, man.



equinox12314 said...

Shorty's pistols said...

"Bob better check the huge ego by the door if he hits the mainline. If he doesn't watch that fat mouth of his, he could be the guest of honor at a little shank shank party."

Your post in its entirety was really good, but with reference to the above quote, I thought that BB had fallen foul of the Aryan Brotherhood at one point. No matter what a big mouth egotist he is, I wouldn't wish any gang related violence on anyone, particularly not at his age.

Apart from being a tragedy for the victims and their families, I feel deeply sorry for what these young people ultimately did to themselves (with the exception of Tex who is just a psycho!!)

D. LaCalandra said...

Because when anyone considers the possibility that Hinman was involved in the drug trade, you look at it as saying the victims brought on their own death. If that's the way you see it, then that's a reflection of your own judgements and beliefs. That's not a thought in anyone's mind but your own.

People have a phobia of discussing the victims and their relation/dealings with the killers, because they have that black and white mentality of "Good and "Bad". In their mind, bad people ask for their own death and you judge bad by what people do behind closed doors. The reason a person dies seems to be more shameful of an act than their murder. Isn't that weird?

orwhut said...

So, is a parade or festival planned for California to celebrate having such a distinguished guest back in it's population?

AustinAnn74 said...

Okay, now I am totally confused. Who are you referring to?

Kevin Marx said...

D la Calandra said:

“In their mind, bad people ask for their own death…”

This sentiment echoes the underworld code of revenge and blame. Basically any wrongdoing can be avenged without any guilt being felt by the avenger – as they didn’t “start” it. Maybe that’s why “normal” people are so uncomfortable with it – it’s a brush with the dark side and a different moral code - it shatters our illusion of being on the right side of the road.

It’s like when Charlie talks about “outlaws killing outlaws” – he sees no wrong in it at all, it’s a “game” played by different rules.

IF Gary/Voytek/Jay did rip people off on drug deals they must have known the risks they were taking and that revenge could be taken with interest.

orwhut said...

Ann,
I was referring to Bobby. If you don't think he deserves a parade, just ask him.

D. LaCalandra said...

No. I mean in the mind of society. They cope and handle death and murder with black and white thinking and rationalizing it. When they see a drug dealer or a hooker or a molester get killed, they secret say to themselves it was their fault or deserved it, because that's how their minds work. So when we talk about that side of things, people think that's what we're doing, but it's not. THEY blame people for their own deaths, so they want to lie to themselves and accept lies to live in that fantasty.

That is true they should have known the risks. But some people don't care or they feel something like that can't happen all of the time. It happens every day. It wasn't until only a few years prior to that that people saw how dangerous the drug trade was. Half of the stuff they were dealing in where legal or just made illegal. It wasn't a full blown epidemic yet and that's the law's fault more than anything. Laws create crime.

Max Frost said...

Sorry I didn't fulfill your morning Col., as I just now looked at this post and thread.

Amazing, Col.

Really amazing...

equinox12314 said...

I was taking a look over at Cat's site (I'm not a member) and one of her members 'Jean Harlow' states that Bobby's parole date has been set as 8 December. I checked CieloDrive.com and they are still not showing any firm date, so perhaps someone who is on Bobby's mailing list could confirm.

I don't want to have to read over BB's parole hearing transcripts again, but I seem to recall that one of them said the prisoner was offered the chance to attend the hearing in person, but declined.

With modern technology, over the years, they could have conducted the hearings via something like Skype.

ziggyosterberg said...


@equinox - I was reading the "Bobby Beausoleil’s Parole Hearing Rescheduled" story over at Cielo Drive earlier. Were you 'E.Q.' in the comments section? That guy really knows his stuff. I figured that must be you.



equinox12314 said...

Hi Ziggy,

yes, that was me - thanks for the compliment! I hope you're not the one I got into an argument with on that post - it seemed to be some sort of mad 'Bobby groupie'.

It's the only time I have ever commented over at Cielo. I love that site because it is beautifully constructed and maintained. A first class resource. This MansonFamilyBlog is the only one in which I actively participate - there's always something new coming along from the excellent team here.

Did you notice in BB's email that he refers to the crew that transferred him between prisons (very professionally by all accounts) as his 'kidnappers'? He will never get past the first post until he changes his attitude. At least Pat, Leslie and Bruce make an attempt at humility.

ziggyosterberg said...


E.Q. :) - That definitely wasn't me. lol. It had to be one of Cupid's Angels, or whatever he call his groupies.

Cielo Drive is a great site. As you said, it's a great resource and I like that it's open and accessible. You mentioned Cats site in another post and I think they might have some of the court transcripts and other things, but for whatever reason that stuff is members only, which I am not.

At the risk of ruffling the feathers of Bobby supporters, the tone of that email, as I read it, was very bizarre, almost comically so. I realize that he's an artist, creative-type yadayadayada, but why does he always make such an effort to put himself above everyone and everything? You're in prison. Stop acting like you're f@cking royalty on a holiday.

I think Bruce has played the game much better than Bobby and that he has the better chance of the two of being released, but I doubt that will happen. Governor Brown was able to find reasons for not releasing Bruce, which I think more than anything stemmed from his unwillingness to gamble on the political fallout from releasing a member of the Manson Family. He'd have a much easier time finding reasons to not release Bobby. Bobby hasn't played the game well at all and I don't think that humility is a word that is even in his vocabulary.


Suze said...

Ziggy, I was a member at Cats's site for about a week before I got banned for saying something nice about this site. How silly is that?

AustinAnn74 said...

I am assusming everyone forgot my posting a while back called "Gary Hinman was murdered for money!" I don't entertain Gary Hinman being killed because he screwed Beausoleil over on drugs. I just don't and never will. I'm no researcher, investigator or know-it-all on these murder cases either. I'm just a normal person that happens to have the opinion that Beausoleil is lying about the actual motive. When you think about it, though, the motive really doesn't change the fact that a fellow human being was held hostage in his house with his face cut open like a cantaloupe, which had to have been excruciatingly painful before being stabbed & smothered to death. Who cares what the reasons were. The victim is a skeleton now in a mountain cemetery in Colorado. I'm sure he would of rather been able to live past the age of 36 or whatever age he was when he died. Can we all agree on that, at least? Peace!


equinox12314 said...

Suze,

I look at Cat's site maybe once a week, but as Ziggy says, you have to be a member before she lets you see a lot of the documents!! I am amazed at the reason for you being banned - how childish. Some really nice people who used to be over there must have become browned off with the set up and started their own site 'murders of august 69'.

Matt said...

It's a good forum. Cats has a great collection of documents. Although I was banned once for reasons unknown, I have a membership. I just checked and it's still active. I don't have access to everything but that's ok. I rarely visit other sites any longer, anyway. Like I said a week or so ago, Cielo, here and that's it.


equinox12314 said...

AustinAnn74 said...
I am assusming everyone forgot my posting a while back called "Gary Hinman was murdered for money!"


Ann, your wrong - none of us who are regulars here have forgotten that post! The general consensus was that it was excellent. Hell, even Col Scott congratulated you on it!!

Was there any evidence found at the Hinman residence or his workplace that he was manufacturing the quantity which Bobby claimed? Why weren't the Straight Satans given the two Hinman vehicles as recompense for the alleged quantity of dodgy mescaline? Why didn't Bruce, Mary or Susan mention a botched drug deal at any police interview, court trial or parole hearing?

equinox12314 said...

Matt said...
"...Although I was banned once for reasons unknown"

She found out you and Col Scott were an item and was justifiably shocked:)

Robert Hendrickson said...

So how does Bobby B. actually FIT into the larger "Helter Skelter" picture painted by the Hero ?

Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cielodrive.com said...

If Cats gets her transcripts from the County Court, she pays 56 cent per page. That might not sound like a lot, but it adds up quick. She shares a lot, at no cost to you. She doesn't have to share any of that with you or anyone.

Matt said...

Yes, Cielo that's a fact. That's why it's always the right thing to do to acknowledge where we find documents that we refer to. I saw that they are discussing the BB transfer back to CA and were nice enough to link back to us as to where they found it. It would be great if everyone did that.


Matt said...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEB!

Have a great day, but keep the public disturbances and vandalism to a minimum!


grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

"So how does Bobby B. actually FIT into the larger "Helter Skelter" picture painted by the Hero ?"


He doesn't.

And yet.....
A funny thought occurred to me a few weeks ago. Bobby's actions after killing Gary Hinman have helter skelter written all over them.
Funny, that.
First of all, he puts the panther paw print on the wall at Hinman's house. In one of his last two parole hearings he says he was trying to shift suspicion onto these nameless, faceless "radicals" that he says Hinman used to be involved with at the university. So why use the panther paw print ? Seeing that, the police would hardly be thinking of questioning the Weathermen !
To be fair to him, he went back a few days later to try and wipe it off but for whatever reason, didn't. Which makes it all the stranger that he tells the police that he bought the car he was caught in from a Black man. For the princely sum of $200. Hmmm.....
Then he went on to tell the police that he'd tried to make Gary comfortable because Gary told him that he'd been jumped by three Black guys, one of whom had sliced his ear and that Gary had been alive when he'd last seen him. Hmmmm......
Now, where have we heard the old "blame the black man" tactic before ?

Hmmmm.....

grimtraveller said...

DebS said...

"What does FFS mean?"


For fuck's sake.

Dawes said...

"I don't share the harshness that it appears most of you do with regard to Bobby Beausoleil. He is an admitted, convicted murder and has served a justly-deserved long time for it"


My feelings toward BB are of sorrow. Sorrow for a wasted life that need not have been as it has been. He was so obviously talented but kind of showed that circumstances can overtake good sense and bring out the darker elements that we all have. I think in one July weekend he discovered that maybe he wasn't as in control of life as he wanted everyone to think he was.
I also think that he hasn't done himself many favours in the years subsequent. Whether rightly or wrongly, inmates serving time for murder who house some dream to one day be paroled have to be so careful to not put a foot wrong. I think it's unrealistic {after all, we on the outside aren't always squeaky clean} to try to attain perfection in 46 years in prison but you've also got to not make some of the errors he has and more importantly, learn from the ones you have made.


Dawes said...
"It was not a premeditated murder though, and it was not in line with the brutality and bizarre nature of the murders at the Tate and LaBianca residences"


There I don't agree with you though. Premeditation can take place in 6 months, 6 days, 6 hours, 6 minutes or 6 seconds. As for the brutality, Hinman was pistol whipped on more than one occasion, beaten up, had the side of his face and ear sliced with a sword, stabbed more than once and had three people muffle him with a pillow as he was dying and trying to get some actual air into him as he was bleeding to death. That whole weekend was, as was pointed out earlier, psychological torture and the murder itself was every bit as brutal as what befell the TLB victims. Probably only Steven Parent's was quick ~ but no less brutal.


Dawes said...



"If the crime wasn't attached to the "MANSON" bogeyman narrative, I seriously doubt that Beausoleil would still be in prison to this day"


I agree. That's partly why I feel for BB. One of the most popular soap operas over here is "Eastenders" and when it first began, probably it's leading light was a character known as Dirty Den, the pub landlord, Dennis Watts. As a young man, aged 19 or 20, the guy that played him had been convicted of murdering a German taxi driver. He only did 10 years inside and later ended up as one of Britain's most celebrated actors. When he was cast in a role in a play about the Home Guard during WW2, one newspaper said something like "at least there will be one member of the cast who has actually shot a German !"

grimtraveller said...

Dawes said...

"Gary Hinman.....There are many accounts from various people that suggest this man manufactured and sold drugs and that these dealings were either the main or related reason for the whole incident taking place"


I wouldn't say there are many accounts and the 'various' people are Sandra Good, Charles Manson and Bobby Beausoleil. Oh and Vincent Bugliosi, believe it or not.
Neither was it any great secret that he had had drug problems in the past.
But I think it's stretching it to say that this is why he died. Because Bobby is crystal clear on this; he and Gary had sorted it all out and it was Charlie's appearance and sword slash of Hinman's face that actually sent the whole situation spiraling out of control and ending in murder. It led to Hinman wanting to get proper medical attention for his face which would have brought the police into it at which point Bobby panicked.
There's lots of Bobby's story I don't believe and I don't believe Charlie's end either but I do believe that BB panicked and most of his subsequent actions seem to bear this out. Let's face it, Bobby made the jump from a little illegality {smoking and passing dope} into the big league very speedily and without any preparation.

ziggyosterberg said...


So Matt was banned for "sex paranoia"? Makes sense. But you can't really blame Matt. Matt's kind of a Steve McQueen/John Tesh hybrid, and the ladies (and men) find him irresistible.

I guess banning is a small price to pay for eternal sexiness. It also explains why Suze was banned too. And why Matt, though he has every reason to, has never banned Vera (Robin). Matt just doesn't find Vera (Robin) very bannable. And yes, "ban" is a euphemism for "f@ck".

And Happy 29th to DebS!!!!! All the best, young lady.


equinox12314 said...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DEB S. Have a great day!!

equinox12314 said...

Grimtraveller said:

"...To be fair to him, he went back a few days later to try and wipe it off but for whatever reason, didn't. "


@grimtraveller,

I believe he couldn't get the pawprint wiped off because the California summer heat had well and truly baked the blood into the wall. Bobby just wasn't cut out to be a criminal.

grimtraveller said...

Dawes said...

"The slash wound on the face is noted as possibly fatal- a five-inch cut that obviously would have exposed muscle but was only one-inch in depth. I am sure it hurt like hell"


I'm sure it did !
Think about it for a moment ~ one inch depth on a buttock or very fleshy thigh is deep enough and would hurt in ways I can't imagine. One inch depth on a face and you're talking of agony beyond that which I can't already imagine.



Dawes said...

"I read "possibly" as a very poor term to use in a medical report. It's not the same as saying "definitely/eventually", but it's also not the same as saying "likely". So I don't know. If left untreated it's possible (likely?) Hinman would have died anyway eventually from the slash wound"


Actually, 'possibly' is an honest assessment. If you have unprotected sex with someone that is HIV positive it is possible that you could become infected. Is it definite ? That it's possible means there is a good chance it will happen. If a female of childbearing age in her fertile period has unprotected sex, it is 'possible' she will become pregnant. Is it likely ?
Gary Hinman's sword wound was possibly fatal. It could have killed him. The medical examiner said at trial that had it not received medical attention, it was possible that it would be fatal. He didn't say that about three of Hinman's five wounds. But that wound had not reached the point at which it was a killing wound simply because Bobby's knife got to that point first. There are many, many injuries or illnesses that don't claim a person immediately, which, if left for a sufficient time, will do so. At those points in time before they do, they are 'possibly fatal.'
Imagine you & I are on a caper and I shoot a guy in the stomach and if no one gets medical attention to him within 36 hours he may die but 4 hours later, you shoot him in the head and he dies instantly. Yours is the fatal blow. Mine would have been possibly fatal.


Dawes said...

"The report says nothing about dental floss though or any other treatment having been applied to the wound"


Part of the reason for this is because part of Hinman's face had been eaten away by maggots. But the examiner could find no evidence of floss. In fairness, he did say he hadn't specifically been looking for any.
But Susan Atkins in her autobiography said "We had decided to try to sew up Gary's face and ear with dental floss although this never materialized."

grimtraveller said...

equinox12314 said...

"I believe he couldn't get the pawprint wiped off because the California summer heat had well and truly baked the blood into the wall"


Yeah, I can believe that. Blood spatters can remain for years.
I was giving him some benefit for changing his mind and trying to get the blood of paw print off but that he then went deeper into his "blame the black man" bit, I find fascinating. I understand he was desperate and seriously flustered. It's just eye opening food for thought that what was going on in his subconscious was the very stuff that the supposed first phase of helter skelter was meant to be; a murder happens, the scene is arranged to reflect the perpetrator as black....



Dawes said....

"if Hinman did not die of the face laceration- or else why the heck would Bobby have stabbed him in the chest twice......"


The answer to this is the same that I'd give to people that ask why Leslie Van Houten should still be in jail for stabbing someone already dead.
Neither of them were qualified medical practitioners.
How could Bobby know whether or not a slice to the face would or wouldn't be fatal ? He was a guitarist and actor on the psychedelic music scene, not a doctor or surgeon. How could Leslie know if her victim was already dead before she started stabbing ? Even Charles Manson made a mistake thinking Lotsapoppa Crowe was dead when he shot him. None of them were doctors.


Dawes said...

"if the slash wound seemed like it was going to be fatal to Hinman, then why would Bobby kill him if Manson would be the one to take the fall?"


You know, it's 46 years since this happened and I've been following the case for 37 years and it was only when I saw the autopsy report a couple of months back that I worked out that Charlie would have been convicted of the Hinman affair regardless, just on the basis of that report. I've never heard one person make that connection though, not on blogs, not any of the authors of books, not anyone from law enforcement. BB obviously didn't think that the sword wound was going to be fatal to Gary Hinman. But that's neither here nor there because it could have been. None of them would know one way or the other. It took a doctor during examination to conclude it was possibly fatal. Bobby couldn't tell just by looking, any more than Charlie at Crowe or Leslie at Mrs LaBianca.

grimtraveller said...

grimtraveller said...

"I do believe that BB panicked and most of his subsequent actions seem to bear this out. Let's face it, Bobby made the jump from a little illegality {smoking and passing dope} into the big league very speedily and without any preparation"


That said, I was surprised, even given her penchant for dramatizing stories or changing them altogether, to read Susan Atkins saying that Bobby was "a leader in the family" and of his need to impress everyone, "he was gripped with the need to prove that he could do anything Charlie could do. He seemed to need to prove it to himself, to Charlie and to all of us. I knew he would kill to prove it."

equinox12314 said...

Grimtraveller said:

"...the supposed first phase of helter skelter was meant to be; a murder happens, the scene is arranged to reflect the perpetrator as black...."

Grimtraveller, I see where you are coming from here - trying to link Bobby to Helter Skelter when he really hasn't been a Family member associated with that particular line of thinking (as opposed to, say, Pat or Leslie who seemed to really believe in it). Could it not be something as simple as a Caucasian blaming their crime on a person of colour? There have been so many instances over decades of innocent people of colour being falsely accused. Particularly prevalent when you have law enforcement with institutionalised racism. Remember when Bobby was stopped at San Luis Obispo, he eventually told the police that Hinman had been beaten up by black people. Manson told Marcus Arneson that if he were stopped with the Hinman vehicle, he was to tell the police that Hinman was black. I am inclined to think that it was good old fashioned racism that reared its ugly head in the Family.

D. LaCalandra said...

The blood on the wall is because of Crowe. Bobby remembered the hassle Charlie had with Crowe and thought if he made it look like the Panthers did it, the cops would crack down on them before they had the chance to raid the Ranch. Also would keep the cops busy or maybe give Charlie a pass for shooting Crowe, who everyone thought was a black panther. A last ditch effort of red harring with no masterplan for a global race war behind it. That Bobby would think of him in such a moment and kill Hinman after he supposedly told him he'd turn him into the police, I think Manson had a strong desire to help him out. Atkins said it was out of fear Bobby would squeal or supposedly he did threaten Manson with turning over if he didn't help him.

Arneson knew Hinman personally, I believe. So Arneson knew that story was bunk.

equinox12314 said...

D.LaCalandra said:

"...The blood on the wall is because of Crowe. Bobby remembered the hassle Charlie had with Crowe and thought if he made it look like the Panthers did it, the cops would crack down on them before they had the chance to raid the Ranch"

Hi D.LaC

Would you give the book/source for this assertion because I would genuinely like to follow it up. I knew what Atkins said about CM's concern re Bobby doing a deal with the DA from her 'The Myth of Helter Skelter' transcript, and that she believed the tragic events were set in motion after Crowe rather than it starting with Hinman.

D. LaCalandra said...

I don't know how much of Atkins book is true. I think it paints a very vivid portrait of what resembles the real atmosphere of the ranch, but. I don't know know how much of her book comes from her. That's mostly conjuncture on my part spread out from years of books, parole hearings, interviews and all that.

Cielodrive.com said...

I wouldn't say Arneson knew Hinman

D. LaCalandra said...

He knew he wasn't black though, right?

I'm still waiting to see a property report for Hinman. Is there one?

grimtraveller said...

equinox12314 said...


"I see where you are coming from here - trying to link Bobby to Helter Skelter when he really hasn't been a Family member associated with that particular line of thinking"


I just found it interesting. I don't believe the Crowe, Hinman or Shea events had anything to do with helter skelter. TLB is another matter. As far as I can see, the murders from the summer of '69 are a combination of the intentional, the unintentional, the out of control and the attempts to wrest back control. No single mode d'emploi fits all the killings.
I do however, think that sometimes people can absorb ideas and principles "by osmosis", maybe not even realizing it, then it comes out when least expected. Bobby as an improvising musician would be particularly adept in this area. If the atmosphere from December '68 on was more of a revolutionary heltery skeltery one and Bobby was tripping with the family at points over the next 7 or 8 months then his post Hinman actions, at least to me, make sense.
Of course, we'll never know but I suspect his subconscious was permeated by the atmosphere and what he had been hearing for months at Spahn and when trouble came, in his freaking out he went into "black blame" mode.
Interesting....



equinox12314 said...

"Could it not be something as simple as a Caucasian blaming their crime on a person of colour?

I am inclined to think that it was good old fashioned racism that reared its ugly head in the Family"


Bobby claims that not only did he not think that way, he actually had disagreements with Charlie over his philosophy. In later years he cited how much that way of thinking was alien to him by emphasizing his love of the blues and Black music in particular and the fact that he was playing in a multi racial band {the Grass Roots} with Arthur Lee before they became Love. Lee actually said that it was him that named Bobby 'Cupid.'

grimtraveller said...

D. LaCalandra said...

"Bobby remembered the hassle Charlie had with Crowe and thought if he made it look like the Panthers did it......also would keep the cops busy or maybe give Charlie a pass for shooting Crowe.....a last ditch effort of red herring.....that Bobby would think of him in such a moment and kill Hinman after he supposedly told him he'd turn him into the police....."


I think that's all rather fanciful. Bobby had just murdered someone. It wasn't war, it wasn't self defence, it wasn't accidental, it wasn't under provocation. I would suggest that the last thing on his mind was getting Charlie off the hook for "killing" Crowe.


D. LaCalandra said...

"I don't know how much of Atkins book is true. I think it paints a very vivid portrait of what resembles the real atmosphere of the ranch"


It's an odd book. It comes across to me as something written by someone who was angry at Charles Manson, Vincent Bugliosi and Linda Kasabian because they are firmly in her sights and they get blasted with buckshot throughout. There's a lot in there that is worthy of consideration and I think she provides a heck of a lot of interesting background information. She also puts things in really astute ways and puts really mind catching spins on things or gives things new twists. For example, explaining the need for guns as being connected with Charlie's ever growing dependence on drugs and the kind of dealers they were now encountering.
The book's major problem is it's author. Susan Atkins simply has credibility issues because she has changed her story a few times too many. She calls the book the myth of Helter Skelter and yet on a number of occasions speaks of Charlie's deceit in using helter skelter and says there were those that believed it and got right into it. Then she says it was the girls that he fed this too, never the men, yet Charles Watson has been on record consistently since at least 1978 saying he believed in it and it was one of the main motives for the killings ~ and he as we know was the chief killer.
She also blames the DA's office for her recanting her grand jury testimony and gets very bitter at Linda for being interviewed more and getting a police guard, never seeming to consider that it was as a direct result of her own actions in recanting that forced this situation in which the prosecution, having lost her when she ran back to Charlie, couldn't afford anything happening to Linda, hence the isolation and other precautions.
She also gets things wrong in her attempts to make Charles Manson look as bad as she possibly can; for example stating that Charlie got her & Mary to go to Hinman's because they were the only ones with kids as at the time Linda hadn't yet joined the family, so they were manipulated that way. But Linda had been there 3 weeks and TLB was only a couple of weeks away....
Overall, it's a good read but there are problems with it.

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

I've been reading George's book lately, so his account of Hinman's murder is still relatively fresh in my mind.

What stuck out to me was his saying that the dental floss stitching thing was an act of charity, Bobby feeling bad for Gary being sliced open and he & the girls trying to make it up to him. He gives the impression that things were cooling down and everything was going to be hunky-dory, Bobby was going to walk away with the cars and everyone would call it squaresies, until Hinman got the notion that he was gonna tell the PIGS what happened. Can't say I blame him.

The problem with this (and with George's book as a whole- no offence, Mr. H) is that it's based on taking Manson at face value. As in, "everything Manson says is 100% true because He Don't Lie as far as I, Mr. H, can see". So it was interesting seeing others here say that the dental floss thing was part of the Torture that Gary suffered.

I'm sympathetic to Bobby being released, but this letter did come off as grandiose and a little odd. But I write oddly too, this wasn't intended for Us so maybe there's an inside joke or cultural context we're missing out on.

Dawes said...
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Dawes said...
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Dawes said...
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MHN said...

The most important writing on the wall in Cupid's case is not 'political piggy' but 'do what thou wilt'.

equinox12314 said...

Grimtraveller said:

"... and the fact that he was playing in a multi racial band {the Grass Roots} with Arthur Lee before they became Love. Lee actually said that it was him that named Bobby 'Cupid.'"

Hi Grimtraveller,

I remember BB using this line of argument at one of the Parole Hearings in response to Patrick Sequeira questioning him on the racist aspect. However, on YouTube there is a good interview with 'Love' guitarist, Johnny Echols and he is asked about Bobby's tenure with 'Love' and he states categorically that Bobby was not a member of that band, but rather they operated an 'open guitarist' slot in much the same way as bands have an open mike, and that Bobby jammed with them a couple of times. Echols tell the story of Bobby turning up at Echols home with Susan Atkins and that Bobby seemed to be scared of getting away from Charlie. Echols said that Bobby was a good kid and couldn't understand what happened.

Here's the link to the YouTube interview. It's part of the Backporch Collections (Apologies if you have seen it before).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=431byGLv7-E

equinox12314 said...

Dawes said:

"...There are many places in the US that do not allow cameras in the courtroom, including the US Supreme Court. The main reason as I understand it is that judges don’t want to turn their courtrooms into circuses where lawyers/witnesses/defendants ham for the camera and try and sway greater public opinion one way or the other. My opinion is that the prison sentences here have changed in recent decades to be much harsher as incarceration has gone from being part punishment part rehabilitation to 100% punishment."


Dawes,

I was specifically referring to televising his parole hearing, not any trial appearances. Parole hearings for Charlie, Leslie, Bruce, Pat and the late Susan have been broadcast at one time or another.

Here in Scotland, we chose not to televise court trials, because in addition to the factors which you have pointed out above, they were worried that witnesses would either not cooperate, or potentially be at risk from the criminal underworld if they did appear in court.

The sentences in the US far outweigh anything handed out in the UK because we are governed at a supranational level by the European Union (and are signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights) and they tell us that every inmate has to be given a definite date for release. US sentences of 40/50 years and more would be seen to be in contravention of their human rights. That's why any UK citizen who is due to appear in America on serious charges fights the extradition to the US tooth and nail.


It's sad how the US has decreased the rehabilitation element of the incarceration because think of all that human life being wasted. At least training programmes gave the inmate some hope of release, and was better for society in general in the event of the prisoner gaining freedom.

equinox12314 said...

MHN said...
The most important writing on the wall in Cupid's case is not 'political piggy' but 'do what thou wilt'.

Michael,

by pointing out BB writing 'do what thou wilt' at the Russian Embassy was more important, are you implying that Bobby was more influenced by Aleister Crowley than any Family lead belief? I know that Kenneth Anger was a very knowledgeable Crowley scholar, but I am not sure that Bummer Bob really understood Thelema. It's not known to what extent, if at all, BB was involved in any occult rituals. I would be interested to know more. Certainly, during Anger's 'Invocation of My Demon Brother', it is filled with occult based visuals.

BTW Michael, I took my tag on here, 'Equinox', from the name of an occult bookshop in London in the 1970s which was owned by Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin. Jimmy, of course, was working on the soundtrack for 'Lucifer Rising' before a falling out with Ken Anger.


Cielodrive.com said...

Well, Dawnes, you should become a member, it's a great site.

Susan, Mary and Gary got to Gary's close to midnight on Friday. Gary was slashed a couple of hours after.

Dennis, that's correct, Mark knew Gary wasn't black. Mark met Gary in passing a year before.

Robert Hendrickson said...

YES Grimtraveler, BUT at the time ANYONE who had ANY sense of awarness of what the Hell was REALLY going on in America, would likely associate ANYTHING violent with the BLACK revolution that was taking place at the time.

That is what made Bugliosi's "Helter Skelter" (Manson trying to IGNITE a Black / White RACE war) so ridiculus. The Black / White WAR was already ON - and already had grown to the stage where ARMED militant Black Panthers were in the streets. For God's sake, the Black people had ALREADY burnt every major city in the United States.

Whitey might say "Blame the Blacks" BUT Black Panthers would say; "Give US the credit." It's always just a matter of perception !

AND you only have to turn on your TV nightly news TODAY to hear a police department spokesperson describe a BLACK man who shoots a white "police officer," as a "monster" BUT a white cop who shoots a Black man in the back, as an officer who FEARED for HIS life.

AND the cruel joke is: absolutely NOTHING has changed in 50 years, EXCEPT that the cops are NOW armed with "military" weapons - gifted via the US government.

My advise: keep on THINKING while it is still LEGAL to do so. Cause the times they are gonn'a change.

Matt said...

Mr. H, while "thinking" may not be illegal, it's certainly on the way out the door. Ever take notice of the way propaganda is disseminated these days? The DAY after Sandy Hook the NRA began posting memes on fake accounts of Morgan Freeman (the voice of God) blaming the media for somehow giving the shooter celebrity status to take sway their feeble minds from considering easy access to automatic weapons being part of the problem. And JEEZUZ, people fucking bought into it! People don't think for themselves, they allow Facebook memes to dictate what they think.

I'm not on Instagram for a reason. There are no words, just images. There's no thought process involved. I had an interesting conversation with an animal communicator once. She said that pets (especially dogs) who spend a lot of time around people have vocabularies and communicate with words. Pets that spend very little time around people communicate in images. Hence Instagram. Many people are devoid of much human interaction. They live on the computer. A picture may be WORTH a thousand words but a book is better!

We don’t need to worry about thinking becoming illegal. People don’t care about it.

Matt said...

@ Fiddy 8 - As for the comment he would have gone back every day - as an intelligence officer I don't think he would have gone back everyday for fear of blowing the cover, & more important, blowing the investigation/case because he was not a legal law enforcement officer & could have fucked up the case if these were indeed the people behind his daughter's murder.


Kevin Marx said...

Matt said:

"A picture may be WORTH a thousand words but a book is better!"

Absolutely Matt, and even better again is actual dialogue - do you ever think the blog will do a live chat via something like Skype? It could be fun and also remove the issue of misinterpretation and tone.

(By chat I mean voice call not text chat.)

Matt said...

Kevin, we touched on that on Tour in April when we did the chats with George Stimson on YouTube. We enjoyed doing them and I think they were successful for a first try. I hope to do more of those. We'll see.


Kevin Marx said...

Matt - yes I watched those, they were excellent. Funny the thing which I remember most is how much beer St. C was drinking lol.

Fiddy 8 said...

@ Matt- My comment was posted the day after the CNN report, and as I explained in my comment, it was based on based solely on what was aired on CNN. Little did I expect what a can of worms the story would open up on this blog.

equinox12314 said...

Kevin Marx said...
Matt - yes I watched those, they were excellent. Funny the thing which I remember most is how much beer St. C was drinking lol.

@Kevin Marx

that was what I was looking at too! Aww - hope St Circ is doing OK at the moment.

I really enjoyed that YouTube footage - George Stimson isn't quite as scary as I thought he might be, and it was nice to see DebS and Patti too.

grimtraveller said...

Dawes said...

"My main intention in making my original post was to elicit conversation on what people want from Bobby in terms of attitude at this point"


As I've pointed out elsewhere, it seems to me that all the killers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they're confident, they get it. If they're contrite, they get it. If they're repentant, they get it. If they're unrepentant, they get it. If they try to put their youth into context, they get it. If they don't want to talk about 1969, they get it. With both barrels. From someone. My comments re:Bobby were more about his actions.

Dawes said...

"but why are you taking issue with the three accounts linking Gary to drugs?"


I wasn't. I have a lot of time for Bugliosi so the fact that I put his name among those that connect him to drugs {on a TV programme in 2009 he said Hinman "furnished the family with drugs"} tells you I have an open mind on the subject. I already stated that it was no secret that Hinman had had problems with drugs.


Dawes said...

"You quote Susan Atkins as the primary source on the dental floss story at one point too, and so I think it is fair to call into question why her word should have more value on something than the word of three other people"


Ironically, I was supporting you at this point. Matt had made a statement about sewing up someone's face with floss being torture and you were saying you couldn't accept Susan or Mary doing this. I remember Susan during the penalty phase of her trial saying she tried to sew Gary's ear but the girls lied so embarrassingly in that phase that I was curious as to what she had said, if anything, so I looked in her book and there it was. So I quoted it for you.
I have my opinions and a number of conclusions but I try to be balanced and fair. I put in that the medical examiner didn't find evidence of floss ~ but I added that he hadn't been looking for any, which makes a difference when you have a maggot eaten face.
And by the way, I frequently call into question Susan Atkins' statements from 1969 to 2009. In fact, far more than any other person connected with this case. i already did it here when I commented on "The myth of Helter Skelter."

grimtraveller said...

equinox12314 said...

"I remember BB using this line of argument at one of the Parole Hearings in response to Patrick Sequeira questioning him on the racist aspect"


That's where I got it from. Bobby was adamant that he wasn't a racist, even then.
By the way, I got this "Lee actually said that it was him that named Bobby 'Cupid.'" a little skewiff ¬> it was that Bobby said {in Barney Hoskyn's biog of Arthur Lee} Lee namedthe band 'Love' after his nickname 'Cupid' after Bryan McLean came into the band and he exited.


Robert Hendrickson said...

"The Black / White WAR was already ON - and already had grown to the stage where ARMED militant Black Panthers were in the streets. For God's sake, the Black people had ALREADY burnt every major city in the United States"


It's not the fault of Black America that Charlie may not have felt they were moving fast enough or effectively enough for his purposes.

D. LaCalandra said...

But is it their fault if the seeds for Helter Skelter were planted in his mind while in Terminal Island by the black muslims? Was Helter Skelter (under a different name of course) a real plan for the black muslims that went into effect with the Zebra Killings? He did time with at least one of those guys and record shows he actually talked with them a lot.

grimtraveller said...

Dawes said...

"Re: 'had three people muffle him with a pillow as he was dying and trying to get some actual air into him as he was bleeding to death.'.....where does it say that all three of them suffocated him? I have read that the only person involved in this aspect of the murder was Susan Atkins"


From the police interview with Mary Brunner on 4/12/69

MS. BRUNNER: The gun ? No, that wasn't part of the garbage. That went along with me. I carried the gun out and then we got everything together and got ready to go and Sadie and I went out in the room with the tree and then Bobby stabbed Gary again, apparently.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why do you say that?

MS. BRUNNER: Why did I say what?

SERGEANT WHITELEY: That, he apparently stabbed him again?

MS. BRUNNER: He must have. He was going to finish him off.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you hear something that made you think that?

MS. BRUNNER: We went out and shut the door but then Bobby came out and said, "Okay, let's go," and then Gary started real loud deep breathing, real raspy, loud. He did it a couple times and Bobby went back in through the kitchen window and then we opened the door and put a pillow over Gary's head for awhile. Then he asked me to hold it there so it wouldn't be so loud. Then he called me to the kitchen while I was still doing it and I don't know why he called me.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Let's stop right there. You have all gone out the door and you hear Gary, this gurgling, or he is breathing hard?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: So, Bobby goes through the kitchen window?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Back into the house?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: He opens the door back up to allow you and Sadie to come in?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And, then, he takes the pillow and he puts it over Gary's face and then he asked you to hold it for him?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why?

MS. BRUNNER: And then he called the ranch and asked if somebody would come pick us up and there wasn't anybody that could come and pick us up.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Let's not jump. I want to get to a point here?

MS. BRUNNER: Okay.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why did he want you to hold the pillow over Gary's face?

MS. BRUNNER: Because Gary's breathing was so loud, he was afraid somebody was going to hear it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: You did hold the pillow?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Sadie?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you see Bobby do it?

MS. BRUNNER: He did it first and then he want to make the 'phone call and then he asked me to do it while he made the call and then he called me to the kitchen and I asked Sadie to do it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why did you ask Sadie?

MS. BRUNNER: She was the only one left if Bobby was in the kitchen.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why did you ask Sadie?

MS. BRUNNER: Because he called me in the kitchen.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Gary expire while you were holding the pillow over his face?

MS. BRUNNER: He was still breathing.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: When did he stop?

MS. BRUNNER: He must have stopped when Sadie was holding it, I suppose.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Were you there?

MS. BRUNNER: Some, I walked back in the room and she says something, "It is all over with," or something like that


It wasn't the pillow muffling that killed him, however.
Mary also stated in the interview that she sewed stitches into Gary's face/ear.

Dawes said...
"Re: “Gary Hinman's sword wound was possibly fatal. It could have killed him.” Yes, but it also could not have, and it definitely didn’t even get the chance to find out. The fatal wounds were I daresay surely the ones to the chest"


I've said that all along but we weren't discussing 'fatal', we were discussing 'possibly fatal.'

grimtraveller said...

D. LaCalandra said...

"But is it their fault if the seeds for Helter Skelter were planted in his mind while in Terminal Island by the black muslims ?"


No.

D. LaCalandra said...

Pretty certain Paul Watkins said as much.

You say that like you know for certain. But he has revealed a lot about this and it goes over peoples heads. He even named the Black Muslims as being the ones who started calling people pig's and explained, according to him, why. There is an interesting quote about what the black muslims having cooking "in the sewers". Right around the time the zebra killings started.



Dawes said...
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equinox12314 said...

Dawes said...

"... (especially considering the situation under which Mary was co-operating with law enforcement)."

Dawes, this is what I find so frustrating about the US system of doing deals with the DA's office. Think about how many people in the whole TLB tragedy that escaped justice through doing deals. On the one hand, you could argue that the prosecution needed their cooperation to get convictions, but in the case of someone like Mary Brunner, I believe there was enough to convict Bobby without letting Mary walk. I feel the same way about Linda Kasabian - a prosecutorial mistake giving her blanket immunity. She might have accepted a lesser charge to avoid the death penalty. She even said herself that she should have done some time.

Dawes said...
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grimtraveller said...

Dawes said...

"I think that there should have been enough forensic evidence (even with the methods/limits of the time) to convict most of these people"


Except that forensic evidence short of CCTV proves nothing. It may give huge indications and at that point it starts to become circumstantial evidence. Even DNA proves nothing and an average lawyer knows that.
Example, Tex & Katie's fingerprints were at Cielo Drive. On surfaces that had been washed on the tuesday {Katie} and the friday {Tex} leading up to the murders. Do they prove they murdered anyone ? Pat's lawyer said at trial that it wasn't inconceivable she was there as a friend. Because the presence of a fingerprint proves no particular action. It indicates a whole load but proves only that they were there at some unspecified point.
What forensic evidence could have been used to convict anyone of the LaBianca murders ? None. The Hinman murder ? None. Bobby and Mary's prints would have been at the house because they'd been to the house previously. Bobby had actually lived there.
In many criminal cases, you're not necessarily dealing with witnesses that live on the wrong side of the law. That's why defence lawyers will go out of their way to discredit in whatever way possible for example, a woman that has been raped.
But in TLB, you were dealing with dodgy on the side of the accused, the witnesses, the cops, the DA's office, the press, the lawyers......it was a dodgefest. Also, why would someone with a criminal leaning put themselves at risk testifying for nothing ? No, it makes abundant sense, I'll testify and risk getting my throat slit but I'd like that stolen engine/forged check/marijuana smuggling charge to be dropped. Because what would you rather have running loose ? A woman that forged a check, a drunk that might have stolen an engine or smuggled some ganja or bought a gun using an alias or someone that had shown no restraint, not only in murdering but in the way they murdered ?
Few people come out of TLB smelling sweetly. But then in the reality of life, sometimes you have to use that which you have to use to deal with the more prevalent issue, which many people think murder was and is. Would you risk your life only to have the people for whom you'd risked it then come after you with prosecutions ?

equinox12314 said...

@grimtraveller,

interesting alternative views you have discussed here. Do you know if, and therefore to what extent, plea bargaining is used in England and Wales? If they don't make use of it, why not? I already outlined on the blog the position up here in Scotland, which is that the Crown Office in Edinburgh rejected plea bargaining. In fact, in Scotland you need two independent pieces of evidence to prosecute.

Boots said...

They should reopen Alcatraz just to house that piece of shit.

christopher butche said...

equinox12314
I've had a quick read-up and it appears the England and Wales only have plea bargaining (since 2008) is for serious fraud cases. However the system has always had an informal approach to plea bargaining. In effect, since the mid-2000s when sentencing reduction guidelines were introduced, a guilty plea will automatically result in a one third reduction in sentencing. In addition the earlier the plea the greater the reduction amount. Another mechanism is "fact bargaining" which is a claim for less culpability after a guilty plea has been entered that may result in further reductions.

equinox12314 said...

christopher butche said...


Christopher, thanks for that. I am sure that you appreciate that in Scotland we have a completely different legal system from England and Wales, so I was interested to learn from you what the situation is over the border from ourselves.

grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

"BUT at the time ANYONE who had ANY sense of awareness of what the Hell was REALLY going on in America, would likely associate ANYTHING violent with the BLACK revolution that was taking place at the time"


"Well then, obviously there weren't many people with the kind of awareness that you speak of. How many people did associate the violence of Tate/LaBianca with Black people ? How many Black people were rounded up and questioned about the murders ?


Robert Hendrickson said...

"That is what made Bugliosi's "Helter Skelter" (Manson trying to IGNITE a Black / White RACE war) so ridiculous. The Black / White WAR was already ON - and already had grown to the stage where ARMED militant Black Panthers were in the streets"


It's only ridiculous if one pre~supposes that Manson was so aware of what Black people were doing and feeling. And he obviously wasn't. And if his comments in "Goodbye Helter skelter" are anything to go by, little, where he is in relation to "Black people" has changed.



grimtraveller said...

D. LaCalandra said...

But is it their fault if the seeds for Helter Skelter were planted in his mind while in Terminal Island by the black muslims?

Regardless of where the genesis of Helter skelter sprang from {and I think it goes right back to Charlie being a man of the South with plenty of bits picked up along the way, including Krishna Venta, civil rights, the Black Muslims and acid} the Black Muslims did not formulate a scenario in which they end up in exactly the same situation that Black people were in before emancipation from slavery, which is the endgame of helter skelter.
The sooner we realize that, the sooner we'll stop trivializing helter skelter as a race war. It was a heck of a lot more than that.
Your quote almost implies that the Black Muslims are responsible for what Manson went on to formulate, almost as if filling his head with their talk was a deliberate exercise that had a guaranteed net result at the end of it.