Monday, August 31, 2015

Conjugal snuggling.....





Inmate Conjugal visitations or family visitation.... What do y'all think?

Do the majority of our readers side with the inmates on this issue, meaning, is it acceptable for killers, rapists, child molesters, etc. to have overnight visits, including "snuggle time" to their spouses/families while incarcerated?

What about Susan Atkins? Was it okay for her to be able to provocatively pose in the "family units" trailer before being pounded by her mulleted husband?

What about Leslie Van Houten? She seems to be everyone's darling. When she briefly married (and got access to a penis sandwich) was it okay? What about her family outing, so to speak with her parents?

What about mustachioed Tex? He fathered four unfortunate children in the last 35 years. He also got to have camp outs with his parents & siblings. They all did.

Manson, of course, is a different story. They basically locked him up & threw away the key. All & all, I find it deeply disturbing and you can probably guess that I respectfully disagree that they should ever bring it back.

I can completely understand why Mrs. Doris Tate had such a problem with it. Her daughter's killers were able to enjoy small moments of normalcy, and experience earthly pleasures while Sharon and the other victims' lives were over long ago. I couldn't imagine how painful it was to know that. So, should these kinds of inmates have this privilege given back to them, or should they leave it alone? Do you think it was okay for these visits to take place at all?

For this discussion, I am particularly interested in what our readers think about Tex, Leslie, Pat, Bobby and Bruce to have conjugal visits again, if, of course, they married? I know Pat has never had a so-called "conjugal" visit, but she did have access to the family living units with her own family.

By the way, I respect most everyone's opinion on these matters, so I hope you respect mine. I know I annoy a hell of a lot of people on the blog, because I sound like such a hard-ass when it comes to the Manson Family, but that's just how I am. That's how I was raised. I'm Austin Ann, the blogger everyone loves to hate!





193 comments:

equinox12314 said...

I am glad Mrs Tate got the conjugal visits stopped for lifers in California. The State was ending up financially supporting the unfortunate children born as a result of these visits. As you rightly say, Ann, why should these people get pleasures that they denied others. There is also the cost of providing the facilities and extra security to accommodate conjugal visits. If people choose to marry someone who is incarcerated, then they should accept from the outset that the relationship will not include the freedoms and privileges enjoyed by others on the outside.

You make the interesting point that Tex was allowed 'camp outs' in addition to his conjugal visits, but Charlie has never been given these privileges. OK, Charlie hasn't married while incarcerated, but he seems to have been denied any kind of extended family visit. Instead, they would rather allow a seven time murderer to spend time outside the compound with his siblings! Something not fair there.

I remember reading somewhere (can't recall where) that Susan Atkins got into trouble for getting over amorous on a couple of occasions in the general prison visiting room with her husband.

BTW I was disgusted at Whitehouse's hair - yuck!! From the posed photographs, Atkins seemed to be under the misapprehension that she was some sort of sex symbol.

D. LaCalandra said...

All I saw was the title and first picture and knew exactly who posted it. I don't even care one way or the other. But this is a dead issue for them, because conjugal visits including sex are over and done with now.

Now we got somebody discussing Whitehouse's hair. Come on. You guys should try out for Hard Copy or maybe A Current Afair. If we want to live in the 80s when these issues were relevant. Let's get some fresh perspective.

equinox12314 said...

D. LaCalandra said...

"...Let's get some fresh perspective."

Well, go ahead and give us some for a change. Your July 22 effort 'The Murder of Gary Hinman...' was hardly the work of an intellectual heavyweight. Sadly, you had already posted it on TOTLB.

Neither Austin Ann nor myself need a magnanimous approbation from you.

MHN said...

No hate for you in this head, AustinAnn.

The problem I have is that we're addressing this issue with reference to the Family. I believe strongly in justice, but justice isn't justice unless it's applied consistently across the board. So for me, is it right that people who deny a pregnant woman the chance to live, and to enjoy the life of her child, get to enjoy some semblance of family themselves? No, that's not justice. But would someone like BB or LVH still be behind bars for what they did without the notoriety of anything Manson - unlikely, we all agree (though we might disagree on whether people who conspire to enter stranger's homes and stab them to death for no clear reason should ever taste freedom again). So to me it would seem that family visits or other little perks might almost be a compensation for the fact that they're serving longer for their crimes than similar perps with less cultural notoriety. I'm going to stop now before I start getting my perps and my perks muddled.

Matt said...

The Manson Family in heels.

Six Miles From Cielo said...

The fact these people are still living, since the death penalty was over turned, is their perk. I'm glad Doris Tate had the conjugal visits stopped. I can only imagine the pain she felt knowing Tex fathered children. As far as the last photo of Whitehouse and Atkins... if he shaved off the facial hair, had some bangs add some makeup he'd look alot like Atkins

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

How on earth could someone dislike Ann. Really.

It makes me sick that Tex has been allowed to breed. I feel almost as sick knowing somebody WANTED to breed with him, the guy just has a gaping void where his heart & conscience should be- like falling in love with a shark. Or a flesh-eating bacteria. It also seems really weird & hypocritical he had access to conjugal visits but Manson didn't. Is this because of the institution Manson was in or is it related to his conviction & notoriety? There must be some legal justification the prison system used to restrict his 'rights' like that, but if that's the case how on Earth did Tex ever got a pass? Because of his phoney-baloney HAIL JESUS bullshit?

Kevin Marx said...

Equinox said: “I am glad Mrs Tate got the conjugal visits stopped for lifers in California. The State was ending up financially supporting the unfortunate children born as a result of these visits. As you rightly say, Ann, why should these people get pleasures that they denied others. There is also the cost of providing the facilities and extra security to accommodate conjugal visits.”

I agree with all of the above but I also wonder, aside from the obvious “roll in the hay” what was the actual value of these visits in terms of the prisoner and the prison population? Did it reduce sexual frustration, tension, attacks etc? Did they contribute anything positive towards general prison life and what has been the impact, if any, since they were stopped?

Equinox said: “If people choose to marry someone who is incarcerated, then they should accept from the outset that the relationship will not include the freedoms and privileges enjoyed by others on the outside.”

Absolutely, it’s a moot point now, but what about someone who was already married before their spouse got locked up? It must be tough on them, in some ways they are a victim too.

Ann said: “I know I annoy a hell of a lot of people on the blog, because I sound like such a hard-ass”

Definitely not here Ann :)

Suze said...

>>> Vermouth Brilliantine said... How on earth could someone dislike Ann. Really. <<<

Well if your an asshole...


ziggyosterberg said...


Gross and grosser?

Whitehouse, it appears, was going for an Afghan Hound look and Sadie was going for the James Woods in drag look.

@equinox, you're a Led Zep fan, what are the chances that Sadie took a sh*t on the 'Stairway to Heaven'?

Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Panamint Patty said...

So there are still places your family can come and stay with you over night if you are incarcerated. Are those just for non lifers who were married before being convicted? Patty is confused.

AstroCreep said...

Personally, I wish they all spent their commuted death sentences in daily agony but I agree that just because of infamy, some are treated differently than others which doesn't seem right. I love the post because it shows how far we've come, kind of like the post about the news crew finding the murder clothing and the detectives scraping them off the hillside with leaves, dirt, all while using their bare hands.

Also, I'm not sure if it's just me but the reason I dig this blog was because it allowed everyone to converse about things they found interesting about the crimes. It's really an exploration of the crimes, motives, and oddities of everything Manson and Manson family. It seems like recently people are just being dicks for no reason. I don't know Ann, but she's always contributing something useful or interesting and I don't see the need for anyone to be a dick to her.

Robert Hendrickson said...

ANN - a "hard ass" LOL. You betcha she is, BUT why ? Her home, Austin, TEXAS is being invaded. AND when the invasion is over, she will have to pay a "C. visit tax" and a "bag" tax and SHE will have to go to night school to learn another language - just so SHE can understand the TV news weather report.

Last night on "Save My Life" (an actual ER rooom show) they had two people with knife wounds and one with gunshot wouunds) HALF the cases shown.

That is the REAL purpose of OBAMA care, so the hospitals can collect $$$ for the ALL the random violent cases hitting emergency rooms all over the country. OBAMA is preparing for the big "invasion" because otherwise ER's will be shutting down EVERYWHERE.

AND all three violent cases were caused by crazy "strangers"

And YOU guys disuccusing "Helter Skelter" in an intelligent manner in the last post are one day going to get a knock on YOUR door from the FBI thinging YOU know TOO much.

AustinAnn74 said...

The last 5 months or so, it seems like every posting I do, or comment I make is pissing people off. That's okay, I guess. I get annoyed too, sometimes. I've been seriously considering throwing in the towel and leaving the blog, ladies & gentlemen. Not because of the sympathizers, but because I don't have time anymore. It's not fair to people that can dedicate more time to this horrific subject. I am lucky if I get to come on here at all, considering I am a full-time care giver now for my mom, who has terminal cancer. I've missed out on going on the tours the last few years too. If I had more time to dedicate, joined them on the tours and was more of an active participant, I would love to stay, but I just don't know if I want to anymore, because I feel like the majority rules and the "majority" don't like what I have to say, anyway. My posts & comments are always met with a freakin retort. Of course, I have done the same thing, but not every time. Ya dig what I am saying? I am not going to let anyone run me off, but it is getting to the point, where I just don't have time anymore. My daily life is filled with enough turmoil as it is and I don't need to visit the blog and be fighting with anyone on top of everything else. It isn't healthy to do so. Peace out!!

Matt said...

AstroCreep, there have always been trolls. We tend not to delete anyone unless they use racial & ethnic slurs, try to reveal peoples' private info or are consistently insulting others. Censorship detracts from the free flow of ideas but even our patience can be tested from time to time. A few trolls over the years became too much and we just began deleting on site. It was effective, they stopped commenting.

We can technically ban IP addresses, but they just change locations and try again. Funny how the most vocal critics can't stay away.


Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MHN said...

Hey Ann - a lot of times when I don't comment it's because you've said whatever I would've said, but smarter, snappier, and funnier than I could. I'd hate to see you leave.

Been through something like what you're going through myself, with my father. It's the toughest thing, and if my thoughts carry any weight at all in the universe then there's a blessing waiting somewhere for you to lighten the load, even if only for a moment. Best wishes Ann.

equinox12314 said...

Ann,

Please, please, please do not even think of leaving.

Because I am in the UK, I am often one of the first to comment on new posts here due to time differences, and this morning I couldn't believe the comment that was targeted at you (and also to me). The particular individual involved is under the misapprehension that they are some sort of intellectual heavyweight.

The blog should be about people coming on here to shoot the breeze and sharing their thoughts on the ongoing TLB topics without feeling they are in competition with others.

I know that the majority of us love to read your posts and particularly enjoy your turn of phrase. It's always funny when you get stuck into sorting out Tex or Bobby.

I should like to offer you my sympathy over taking care of another who has a serious illness - I am in the same position myself and find that my participation here is an enjoyable distraction.

PS Ann, if you stand up to bullies like D. LaCalandra, they shrink.

equinox12314 said...

ziggyosterberg said...

"@equinox, you're a Led Zep fan, what are the chances that Sadie took a sh*t on the 'Stairway to Heaven'?"

LMAO Nice one, Ziggy. You know, the strange thing is that Squeaky turned up at a hotel that LZ was staying at. She said that she wanted to speak to Jimmy Page because she had some information to give him to the effect that he was in danger (without saying from whom). One of their management, Danny Goldberg, refused her access and threw away the note she handed him. It was only after she made the news over the Ford assassination attempt that they realised who it was that was trying to make personal contact with them!!



equinox12314 said...

Kevin Marx said..

"...I agree with all of the above but I also wonder, aside from the obvious “roll in the hay” what was the actual value of these visits in terms of the prisoner and the prison population? Did it reduce sexual frustration, tension, attacks etc? Did they contribute anything positive towards general prison life and what has been the impact, if any, since they were stopped?"

Hi Kevin,

First of all, I am not at all acquainted with the California penal system, but I think (think!) that conjugal visits are still allowed for non-lifers (someone please correct me if I am wrong). For the lifers, they should just put bromide in their tea/coffee and that will soon reduce their desires:):) After all, that's what they do to military personnel who are away from home for a long time.


KevinMarx said:

"...but what about someone who was already married before their spouse got locked up? It must be tough on them, in some ways they are a victim too."

Kevin, I too have more time for these people because any one of us could be married to someone who, for whatever reason, ends up incarcerated. However, there still remains the problem of the cost of running family visits and the burden on the taxpayer if one party becomes pregnant. I think that consideration should be given to ensuring that such inmates are placed in penitentiaries which are within reasonable travelling distance from their next of kin to ensure regular family contact. The system that is used here in Scotland with regard to lifers is that there are no conjugal visits in prison, but in the months prior to the end of their sentence, they spend a couple of weeks at home tagged so that they can't escape. It is carefully monitored how they are settling back into their home environment. It's not perfect - no system is under these circumstances.




Matt said...

And we here at MansonBlog are so thorough that we went to the trouble of photographing the poop landing for you.

You can't get shit like that anywhere else!


AustinAnn74 said...

I wouldn't be leaving just because people disagree. That is way off. I'd be leaving, because I don't have a lot of time to give to the blog. I really appreciate the words of encouragement, though. I guess when I have time, I will contribute, like always. Some of the postings I have done were written a long time ago. Others, just recently popped into my head. I have some good outlets from stress too, one being this blog, obviously, going out every now & then with friends and, of course, my workouts at the gym. I could not function without exercise! Not only do I get rid of stress, but it keeps my looking nice. :-) I am also happy, because this Saturday at 3 AM, I became an aunt again. I am VERY happy! Aunt Austin Ann! :-)

equinox12314 said...

Matt said...
And we here at MansonBlog are so thorough that we went to the trouble of photographing the poop landing for you.

You can't get shit like that anywhere else!


Matt, as I've said before many times, this blog goes to great lengths to take you to places other blogs wouldn't dare. The annual tours are a wonderful innovation.

equinox12314 said...

Austin Ann74 said...

"... I am also happy, because this Saturday at 3 AM, I became an aunt again. I am VERY happy! Aunt Austin Ann! :-)"

Congratulations, Ann.

AustinAnn74 said...

"...Not only do I get rid of stress, but it keeps my looking nice. :-)"

Yes, you certainly do. In fact, if Tex or Bobby got released, I am going to point them in your direction:):) I know how much you would like that!

AustinAnn74 said...

Equinox, thank you for the congratulations! No pointing killers/famous-recording artists/syntar players in my directions, ever! :)

ziggyosterberg said...


@equinox - Was that in "Hammer Of The Gods"? Great book, btw. Peter Grant seemed like an interesting character. Wasn't he crying at one point about Danny Goldberg leaving or something? It's been a long time since I read it, but some things stay with you, like the shark incident. ;)

Did you like any of Page's post Zep stuff? I thought The Firm were pretty good and the Outrider album had a few good tunes. I like most of Percy's stuff, but the Honeydrippers were a little too sappy for me.



& LMFAO@ Matt's post. That was a home run.

equinox12314 said...

@Ziggyosterberg,

It may have been covered in 'Hammer of the Gods'. I got the Barney Hoskyns 'Trampled Underfoot' biography which is a eye opener - worth buying.

No I am not keen on his post Zep stuff. I did see Jimmy in concert in Edinburgh when he first toured with The Firm. Let's just say that I think he was 'under the influence' that night - he looked out of it!! I partly went along because I would go to anything that Paul Rodgers is involved with. I also saw Plant in concert when he first went solo - I liked 'Big Log'. He was really good.

Yeah, I think the shark incident certainly stayed with the groupie as well:) I have always wanted to see the Continental Riot House. There's an interview on YouTube with Carmine Appice who I believe was in the room during the incident.

I mentioned in the last post that Page used to own an occult bookshop in Kensington, London called 'Equinox' and that is what I use as my name on here. When I was 15, I travelled to London to go to the shop in the naive belief that Page would be on the premises. As if. He
fell out with Kenneth Anger over the 'Lucifer Rising' soundtrack and Bummer Bob ended up getting the job.

ColScott said...

" Hi. I am butthurt because I type things that may not be true but I believe them so why don't you? I have gut feelings, we all do, because, you know, life. If I post something on the blog and I don't get 150 likes within an hour it makes me feel rotten. I am going to trot out the "I'm a gonna quit" card to see if I get enough people telling me they love me. I mean really folks, isn't TLB all about love? The love that we have in our hearts to do this for people? The love Tex gave to his Christian wife? I gotta go come up with colorful euphemisms for sex now, miss me y'hear?"

AuntAustinAnn

Suze said...

>>> On Monday, March 9, 2015 ColScott said...

"I must say with all sincerity that this post has inspired me and rejuvenated me to a level that I didn't think possible...

"... this article really is sensational because it reminded me of when I was doing original research...

"But I read this excellent presentation and I thought about all the endless conversations and realize that the simple solution is correct (with a slight adjustment Austin Ann)..." <<<



Dude, you're hot and cold.

AstroCreep said...

"Hi. I'm just a guy who likes to run people down on the internet. I'm neither a Colonel or a man of any substance... hence my need to make myself feel better by belittling others online who may be dealing with tough family situations. How dare they post anything about the subject that only I hold all the answers to! Oh, yeah I also pride myself as a class 4 wizard in LARPing circles but that's a whole different blog! Intellects unite and defend me! My need to feel electronic prowess thru my laptop keypad is insatiable! I've been down and out since my mom doesn't make me grilled cheese with the crusts cut off :( anymore"

Col Scott

PS- wow my ovaries ache, I must be ovulating

ColScott said...

Suze- I admit my mistakes. I ended up doing some unexpected original research and realized that I was wrong. There is no doubt.

AstroCreep- there are many ways to cut the Col down, valid, intelligent ways. Too bad you couldn't find them. Your comment is old school already in internet terms, not funny enough and not at all clever.

I do not hold any special knowledge and never have claimed that I did. I had terrible family situations for the last four years, should you be nice to me and help me cross the street? She was belittled for making a stupid, irrelevant post and for then crying out for love in the comments. I don't know about her Family nor should it matter. Did you get a better grade in school when your Dad was out of work or something? Please, before you engage your betters, either be smarter or funnier. Starting with the shait Screen Name

AustinAnn74 said...

Col:

https://youtu.be/Ol8LfD0ErCA

Fiddy 8 said...

There's a lady who's sure all she shitters is gold
And she's crapping on stairway to Saladin
When she gets there she knows, if rest rooms are all closed
With a squat she can shit where she needs to
Ooh, ooh, and she's crapping on stairway to Saladin

AstroCreep said...

"betters" in what exactly? You surely lack class and I'd put my manhood, class, integrity, and character up against your vernacular any day of the week. Forgive my old school nature because unlike you, I haven't been spending the better part of my life crafting and perfecting my vocabulary. I was doing something that enabled you to sit in your tighty whities safely nestled behind your keyboard looking at the world thru your computer screen. What exactly are you covering up with the gruff online persona? Small useless penis? Ive seen many incorrect statements made here at this blog but aside from calling out a douche (you in this instance) I rarely comment. I could care less if you think I'm witty or funny. I don't pretend to be either but please, knock off the pretending to be a real man thing. You're not at all and you should treat everyone here with some respect whether you like their post or not.

MHN said...

Colon Scat:

"I don't know about her Family nor should it matter."

True, very true. Unless... well, unless you're some kind of human being, with empathy, good will to those who haven't forfeited it, that kind of thing. Your capital F kind of gives it away too easily doesn't it. You know more than most about Family matters, and my god how you love reminding everyone here of that. I can never help but laugh at your "have you tiny people remembered nothing I've taken the trouble to teach you down the years!?" posts.

Col, you do realise don't you, that one of the things that marks out those who really are our 'betters' is that they would never, ever, have the vulgarity or the embarrassing crassness to make that claim on their own behalf?

equinox12314 said...

Fiddy 8 said...
There's a lady who's sure all she shitters is gold
And she's crapping on stairway to Saladin
When she gets there she knows, if rest rooms are all closed
With a squat she can shit where she needs to
Ooh, ooh, and she's crapping on stairway to Saladin


LOL - nice one, Fiddy:)

Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mrgroove said...

Ann. Count me as another fan of yours. Please don't leave if you're not overwhelmed by your difficult circumstances.

ziggyosterberg said...


Hmmmmmmmm....should I join in the Col fight.....or should I talk about poop and Led Zeppelin?

equinox12314 said...

ziggyosterberg said...

Hmmmmmmmm....should I join in the Col fight.....or should I talk about poop and Led Zeppelin?

@ziggyosterberg, here's a compromise. When LZ were considering reuniting, Plant didn't want to do it, so they were left looking (unsuccessfully) for a new lead singer. Maybe, Col Scott would fit the bill. He'd look great in a pair of skin tight jeans:)

Fiddy 8 said...

Thanks Equinox, Like Ziggy, I think this blog needs more humor too, so here is a way off-topic joke in honor of Hendrickson:

President Obama has just renamed Mount McKinley as Mount Denali, next he plans to rename California's highest peak Mount Whitney as Mount Blackney.

equinox12314 said...

Fiddy 8 said...

"...President Obama has just renamed Mount McKinley as Mount Denali, next he plans to rename California's highest peak Mount Whitney as Mount Blackney."


Good one, Fiddy. I am sure Mr H will like it.

ziggyosterberg said...


@equinox - I think the Pamela DesBarres book was the first that I heard of Bummer Bob. I think she exaggerated her relationship with Page. I doubt he thought much of her. Her jealousy towards that teen girl Page was dating was embarrassing to read.

Page has made some weird choices. Didn't he also do the score to a Death Wish movie? I saw him on TV one with Puff Daddy doing some sort of Kashmir thing and couldn't change the channel fast enough. And he was on Ellen recently. I actually did watch that on youtube one time, just out of curiosity. And the movie with the Edge and Jack White, the name of which I can't recall, was kind of lame, but Page was definitely the highlight.

I would have liked to have gone to that bookshop, even though he wasn't there, it sounded interesting.

I will check out the book that you mentioned and the Appice interview. Thanks for the recommendations.

@Fiddy 8 - That was great. I'd love to hear Charlie do a version of "Stairway To Saladin". lol

equinox12314 said...

Could one of the American members help me out here. Matt has referenced the Saladin apartment above as the scene of Susan's impromptu call of nature. Under the first photograph, the caption says his 5th floor apt. However, from that photo and the one directly below, the apartment is on the 4th floor. Is it the case in America that you refer to the floor at pavement (sidewalk) level as the first floor, whereas in the UK we call it the ground floor, which to us makes the next level up the first floor?

http://www.mansonblog.com/2012/08/saladin-naders-apartment.html

Matt said...

Col, we all have family issues of some sort. As we grow older we deal with sickness, death and other issues. I've never once heard AustinAnn ask for sympathy. Despite her heartache she shows up once and a while and contributes. Your last post was nearly 11 months ago.

Matt said...

equinox, you are assuming correctly. Here in the US the ground floor is the first floor. Remember, you also drive on the wrong side of the road, so I understand your confusion.

Matt said...

Fiddy. Blackney. Priceless...

Fiddy 8 said...

Yup Equinox, to us the 2nd floor is above the ground floor. By the way, did you realize how CM is very proud of his Scottish heritage?

Panamint Patty said...

So nobody's going to even try and answer Patty's actual question?

Fiddy 8 said...

Thanks Matt, By the way, I wrote that joke today for Mr H, so if it shows up on Kimmel, you know where he stole it from.

ziggyosterberg said...


@Panamint Patty - I'd answer, but I don't know because I've never been to prison.

Ask Matt. He probably knows.

BTW, I like your hoodies. The green is probably my favorite. No wait - the blue. No - the green. Ugh. I can't decide.

ziggyosterberg said...


@equinox - I found some footage of the Col Scott Led Zeppelin audition :

http://i.imgur.com/W61Fz3E.gif

Fiddy 8 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
equinox12314 said...

Fiddy 8 said...

"By the way, did you realize how CM is very proud of his Scottish heritage?"

He is surprisingly knowledgeable about Scotland, but I suppose when you've been locked up as long as he has, you've got plenty of time to read. In fact, that guy Bill Scanlon Murphy, who was the session musician with the Beach Boys and interviewed CM, was Scottish.

equinox12314 said...

ziggyosterberg said...

@equinox - I found some footage of the Col Scott Led Zeppelin audition :

http://i.imgur.com/W61Fz3E.gif


@ziggy - I burst out laughing when I saw that. Very good:)

ColScott said...

AstroCreep - "Bro I went off and killed for OIL show me some respect."- No, you an idjiy.
AustinAnn- Ass shaving is something Matt likes why would I not?
MHN- this is a discussion of 7 brutal murders fuck you and your alleged manners, Esalen is calling you
Matt- What a strange comment. Yes I stopped Blogging 11 months ago because I had nothing more to say and nothing new or interesting to add. What's Ann's excuse with her post I would have deleted in 1990?? As far as family is concerned the poster raised that as an issue and I addressed it.

Fiddy 8 said...

Once I had a love and it was a gas
Soon turned out had to shave my ass
Seemed like the real thing, only to find
Mucho mistrust, love's shaved behind

ziggyosterberg said...


@ColScott - AstroCreep served his country while you were buying "Producer" credits on a string of shitty movies - just like you bought your friendship with Bobby B. Pathetic, really.

Doesn't it bother you that the only reason people tolerate your sorry ass is money? Take away your money and you're just a fat loser with a big mouth.


AstroCreep said...

Col Scott- interesting. I went back and read some posts of yours. The one that caught my attention was the post in which you tell everyone about your wife's 6 chemo treatments and subsequent surgery. You had no issues thanking everyone for their kind words, thoughts and prayers. I guess it suited your need for attention or brought you the comfort you so desperately needed.

Also, I found a picture of you and I'm not sure whether to laugh or say I'm sorry. I can see where the "you're not a real man" comments I made probably hit a nerve. Your face is all pink like maybe someone was slapping you around like a bitch in the shitter... Who knows...

Anyway bro, I understand better why you're bitter. Bad genes are a mother fucker for some people. Maybe you can work off some of that bitterness on a treadmill.

Cielodrive.com said...

http://youtu.be/gpbkcMSlCgw

Boots said...

Offer Tex and Bruce to the male prisoners for their conjugal visit.

Matt said...

When you wake up and the first thing you read are ass shaving lyrics you know it's going to be a strange day.


equinox12314 said...

@Matt,

I don't think when Ann wrote this post that she envisaged the thread would end up the way it has done. However, it has been very entertaining - all we need now is for Vera to turn up!

christopher butche said...

Patty, I'll bite.

For me it depends on what is meant by punishment. I would probably lean toward that it means a loss of liberty by the state removing you from society for a certain period of time.

Personally, I see the loss of liberty as the punishment. Therefore I do not see why prisoners should not have the right to vote or to having children, conjugal visits etc.


MHN said...

MATT - probably the best comment ever seen on the internet, period.

Col Scrote - I get it; because the subject here is 7 brutal murders then you have the right to treat other people like dirt...?

Detailed knowledge of old murder case: 8.5/10 - beats most of the killers
Grasp of logical argument: 1/10 - very weak, needs work
Social skills: 1/10 - you get 1 because you evidently know you have to be nice to Matt if no-one else.
Sense of humour: 2/10 - you're actually not as funny as you constantly advise your antagonists to be, and it may shock to you know Vera is actually a more entertaining read than you are! That must hurt...

Suggested homework: It makes you look terribly weak when you resort to bullying, name-calling and intimidation tactics the moment anyone challenges you on anything. Others here, the lucky ones, might know you in person and see that there is more to you than your perpetually blustering internet persona. Try to understand that if you die friendless and alone, despising the world for not knowing as much as you do about a half century old murder case, then you really won't have amounted to much in the grand scheme of things. Come on Col, let's turn that frown upside down! Hug a stranger today!! Say one nice thing to Vera!!! You can DO it!

Matt said...

Chris, I'm in agreement. The confinement is the punishment. I heard a Corrections Officer recently say that. He also said that they are not there to increase the punishment my being less than civil to the prisoners. They are just there to keep them confined and make sure no one gets hurt.

Someone here also fairly recently said that it really is horrible to lose your freedom AND your privacy. You can't even use the toilet without either a camera on you or someone standing their watching. Imagine that for 46 years.

BUT, conjugal visits as I understand them are to facilitate familial relationships so that a prisoner has a significant other to return to upon release. Does BB have hope of release? I'm thinking that's pretty slim.



AustinAnn74 said...

California prisoners that do not have convictions for murder, rape, child molestation, etc., including life prioners, even if they are "3 strikes" inmates cannot have overnight family visiting anymore in what they call the family unit trailers. Slim chance they'll bring it back, but who knows, they might. As Manson Family gets older & older, the chances of them ever getting married panocha/verga is very slim.

On a different note, I hope I was able to gather as many "likes" as possible, because I cannot function without knowing complete strangers from the internet approve of me. :) Just kidding.......

equinox12314 said...

Matt said...
Chris, I'm in agreement.


@Matt and Chris,

But who is going to pay for the upkeep of any children born out of these 'family visits'? Here in the UK we have a ludicrously generous benefits system, but I have never had the impression that our American cousins offer the same.

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

The parent on the outside (and their immediate family) could pay, couldn't they?

Matt said...

Women with children who earn poverty wages or no wages at all can certainly get free health care, food and clothing and subsidized living quarters. They live in squalor, but they aren't left out cold and hungry. We also have food banks, donated clothing and other services but most aren't educated enough to take advantage.

I'm not in favor of inmates reproducing on the public dime, but I also don't want to release a man into society who hasn't gotten any in years. I get cranky after 2 days.

equinox12314 said...

Matt said...

"I'm not in favor of inmates reproducing on the public dime, but I also don't want to release a man into society who hasn't gotten any in years. I get cranky after 2 days."

2 days - o.mi.god. This is more information that I can handle:)

Seriously, I didn't know that there was any kind of State support in the US because for many decades, we have had US women travelling to the UK in the late stages of pregnancy and then absconding after the birth to leave the British taxpayer with the bill. We tried to stop this practice, but the wily have found ways round it. Sad, desperate, but true.

MHN said...

Cranky after 2 days..... wow, Matt. I'm going to force my wife to read that comment so she can see how remiss she has been in the performance of her duties.

On the other hand, Steve Parent isn't getting any, ever. So there's that.

MamaPoohBear said...

AustinAnn,

I hope you do continue to post as often as you can. Having been in your position, I know that having an outside interest and outlet is one way to keep your sanity. Your mother is fortunate to have you; you are fortunate to have a way of repaying her for all of her kindness throughout the years

AustinAnn74 said...

I meant prisoners that DO have convictions for that. Sorry.

AustinAnn74 said...

Thanks, Mama. I try, as often as I can. I comment more, because it doesn't take long.

equinox12314 said...

Vermouth Brilliantine said...
The parent on the outside (and their immediate family) could pay, couldn't they?at


Hi Vermouth,

I am not sure if it's a case of could they pay, but would they pay. It is difficult to enforce child support payments at the best of times.

Many years ago in Scotland, we had a notorious killer named Jimmy Boyle who wrote his autobiography, 'A Sense Of Freedom'. Therein, he stated that the worst part of the punishment was having to ask another adult's permission to unlock the door - i.e. not being able to do simple things like walking out of a door onto the street at your own free will. (Obviously, the victim is left without any choice whatsoever - it's a tragedy all round)

Robert Hendrickson said...

ANN: I think I figured it out. YOU post 2 pics of a very sexy looking girl for ALL the deprived men out in webland to droul over. Of course, SHE just happens to be a "mass murderer" who pleasured the Manson Family men with HER wild and wicked charms.

Umfortunatly, most men ,in their entire lifetime, NEVER even get close enough to a woman like that to even smell HER perfume.

Result: Confusion and HATE in the minds of men. Of course, that also explains WHY Mr. Policeman HATED the Family men and especially CHARLIE - to the extent they THREATENED to KILL him.

As far as the issue of providing "fucking" visits with inmates, how come WE must be "for" or "against" such an act of controversay.

ANYONE ever see "Midnight Express" movie ? The un-civilized TURKS compromised the issue with providing a small room with a glass separating the inmate from HIS woman so that HE could beat-off to HER sexiness. NO babies, NO complaining, and less jealousy on the part of those who can't get any.

It even solved the homosexual problem - the inmate could simply ask for a priest.

In America and the rest of the CIVILIZED world WE must wait for an official "judge" to make ALL of our touchy decisions.

Just look at the recent case of the "clerk" who won't issue a marriage license to a same sex couple. WE have to have a "judge" get involved with the matter - cause NO body else in government employ KNOWS how to "fire" someone who can NOT do HER job. Such liberish !

equinox12314 said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

ANYONE ever see "Midnight Express" movie ?

yes, Mr H. And we also saw the scenes of the inmate being beaten on the soles of his feet and the attempted rape of him by one of his captors. To this day, we in the European Union have vetoed Turkey from admittance on the basis (among other factors) on the basis of their history of human rights abuses.

christopher butche said...

I was re-reading The Garbage People the other day, in it Manson reflected on his earlier release (when he was in his teens) and recalled he got a lot of satisfaction from being able to open and close doors without having to ask permission.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Gee, EQ - see what happens when you meld Muslim / Islam and Capitalism together. OK, De La Calandra, I've openned the door for YOU.

ziggyosterberg said...


[to the Turkish court]

Billy Hayes: I just wish for once that you could be in my shoes, Mr. Prosecutor, and then you would know something that you don't know: mercy! That the concept of a society is based on the quality of that mercy; its sense of fair play; its sense of justice! But I guess that's like asking a bear to shit in the toilet.


ziggyosterberg said...


Matt gets cranky
After 2 days
The way Matt likes it
Is the way it is
Matt gets ass
And he shaves his

Get up - (Get on up)
Stay on the scene - (Get on up)
Matt's a sex machine - (Get on up)

AustinAnn74 said...

I never thought Sadie was attractive, but, obviously, what she had going for her was a very nice figure, or physique, but then again, you see some photos of her and she did have a pretty face. Very strange.....Also, James Whitehouse, her husband really seemed to love her a lot. I have seen interviews with him and he always tears up when he talks about her. I really think he thought that he had a shot at getting her out, but then she got cancer and that ruined everything, as it usually does. It makes me feel bad for people like him, who truly love the person that committed such a terrible thing, multiple times, but you have to feel worse for the victims' families.

ColScott said...

> Ziggy> I have never bought a credit on anything so right out of the gate you are painfully wrong. Until about 9 years ago I barely had a pot to piss in. Any money I have I earned by working. Thanks. Also serving one's country does not mean what you think it means, unless invading a nation that did nothing to us and therefore creating ISIS is a service.
>AstroCreep> sorry you don't like how I looked back then or the color of my skin. I've lost 50 pounds since then so maybe you'd like to blow me now? I don't think I would let you but since appearance matters so much to you as an intellectual inferior, LMK okay?
>MHN> I do not think you know what intimidation means. Written words cannot intimidate. I have scorn for the ignorant and no patience for those whose thought processes are stunted like yours. That's all I have. And Matt will tell you that Vera is the devil, so don't take my word for it.
>Ann- I included you in my evening and morning prayers while facing Mecca. I hope you and yours are doing a little better today. Please do post, just make it good next time.

MHN said...

Col Scott. I pray that you are spared ever being forced to see yourself as others see you.

christopher butche said...

Austin ann. Look into who James was engaged to/involved with before Atkins. He had a history of liking incarcerated killers as far as I can recall. Was it Paul Watkins who said Atkin's face appeared to change as you walked across a room? ie homely to beautiful. Tex may have written something similar.

Mr Hendrickson have you read There's a Riot Going On Revolutionary Rock Stars and the Rise and Fall of 60s Counter Culture by Peter Doggett? I heartily recommend it to you as confirming how FBI etc tried to bring down the enemies of the state.

I always imagine the Col to be the TLB version of Hunter S Thompson.

MHN said...

"Written words cannot intimidate"

INTIMIDATE: verb (used with object), intimidated, intimidating.
1. to make timid; fill with fear.
2. to overawe or cow, as through the force of personality or by superior display of wealth, talent, etc.

You have scorn for the ignorant?! Take a look in the mirror pretty boy.

ziggyosterberg said...


@ColScott - I'm not even going to get into the politics of it, but you insult all US servicemen and servicewomen when you call them idiots or "idjiy" and say that they "killed for OIL". But if that's truly how you feel, come out as your REAL SELF with your REAL NAME and say it publicly. Issue a press release even and let everyone in America know how you feel. Put your money where your mouth is and let the chips fall where they may. I'm sure that your business associates will stand behind you. ;)

But beyond all that, your need to constantly insult and demean people and remind them of your supposed intellectual superiority to them is truly sad. Maybe it's time to let go of all that garbage and move on?



ziggyosterberg said...


christopher butche said...

"I always imagine the Col to be the TLB version of Hunter S Thompson."


I prefer to think of him as the TLB version of Eric Cartman.




MHN said...

ziggy. Eric Cartman. Perfect.

Col - please know that from now on very insult or boast you post will be read in the voice of Eric Cartman. Oh what fun. Keep it coming, genius!

AustinAnn74 said...

Col:

L'Chaim! :-)

ColScott said...

>MHN> one asshat says I am ugly now you call me pretty boy. FACT- It is not hard to be smarter than you
> Ziggy> I am sure you watched AMERICAN SNIPER and thought Bradley was the hero too
> Austin- and if our good fortune never comes here's to whatever comes

ziggyosterberg said...


@ColScott - So I take it this means that you won't be letting Spielberg know what one of his co-producers thinks of members of the US military?

Will you be making any more job offers to Bobby Beausoleil for him to bring to his next parole hearing?


TracyL7291 said...

Don Murphy has a voice that sounds like a cross between Daffy Duck and Cindy Brady. Maybe that's why he's so bitter and hateful.
But surely, if they can give a grown man breasts and a vagina these days they could give you a new voice Mr. Murphy- you know one that makes you sound like a real man and not a cartoon character. :)

Panamint Patty said...

Col Scott IS a cartoon character. Don Murphy however is a kind and generous teddy bear. Believe it or not.

Panamint Patty said...

Make that PANDA bear

MHN said...

Patty - sure, but sadly for this fine blog we only get Col Scott, with his tired barbs, churning them out like some addled old drag queen, the same tedious act every night: I'm cleverer than you, you're so stupid and ignorant compared to me, I'm the smartest guy in the room, why do you even bother writing this crap when it's beneath my intelligence and knowledge blah blah blah....

It's about as entertaining as acid reflux.

Matt said...

MHN said...

..."I'm cleverer than you, you're so stupid and ignorant compared to me, I'm the smartest guy in the room, why do you even bother writing this crap when it's beneath my intelligence and knowledge blah blah blah...."


There are times when I wish "I could explain it". This is one of them. I wish all, of you knew the real person behind ColScott like we do. he's not what you think. Like Patty said, ColScott IS a cartoon character. The real guy isn't (except when Robin shows up) :)





MHN said...

The real irony is that despite being so thoroughly charming when I visit this blog, in real life I like to scream at children in parks and squeeze hamsters until they shit blood.

So Matt, I believe you. Maybe I'll just ignore the "Col" and wait for the day when I get to meet a real-life movie producer who will bowl me over with his suave and affable manner, the lovechild of George Hamilton and Wayne Newton.

And moreover I totally agree with Col re the Meredith Kercher case. But let's not open that can of crap here...

Panamint Patty said...

*snort*

Mr. Humphrat said...

Matt would you say the Col. believes the insults he writes but has a dry sense of humor and is not bitter? Or do you think he is just needling people for fun? Am I on the right track. Thanks for reminding people he's a Teddy Bear Patty and Matt. I'm just happy when he's insulting someone besides me.
I like the last photo of Susan. She radiates happiness and a clear mind.

AstroCreep said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
joseph esposito said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
joseph esposito said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Cali Dreamin 74 said...

Hi. Longtime reader, first time commenting. I cannot compete with some of the above comments, but I thought I would offer my opinion on the conjugal visits, if I may. I really didn't have a problem with the inmates having them as long as they were not having children at the expense of the taxpayers. I know Susan sure did enjoy hers because she frequently mentioned them in her letters in 1991 or 1992. She said they made her feel human, for whatever that is worth. She was the subject of my high school research paper, but We carried on correspondence for several years. In fact, I have a Polaroid somewhere that is very similar to the third picture of her with James.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Cool Cali. thanks. Seems like you'd have a lot to contribute here.

MHN said...

Cali Dreamin - "Longtime reader, first time commenting. I cannot compete with some of the above comments"

That gave me the biggest smile of the morning so far. Yeah, we reached a really high level didn't we? Hehe. I like this sense of humor.

Max Frost said...

Wow - this is getting interesting...

equinox12314 said...

Cali Dreamin 74 said...

"...I really didn't have a problem with the inmates having them as long as they were not having children at the expense of the taxpayers."

Cali I agree heartily with not obliging the taxpayer to fund any offspring. However, in practical terms, you would have to make the women have contraceptive implants and check before the visit that they haven't been removed; or only allow family visits for males who have had vasectomies:):)

Really interested to hear how you developed a friendship with Susan. If there is anything you are able to share with us on here, I am sure we would like to hear more. Why did you choose Susan in particular for your research topic? Did you ever request to visit her in the penitentiary?

Robert Hendrickson said...

The Col has a point about delivering ISIS the keys to the Middle East, BUT it was the YOUR US Presidents Bush and Obama to blame for that, NOT the military, cause they ONLY did what the Commander in Chief ORDERS then to do.

AND the best example of a "Commander's Mistake" is Vietnam. The Vietnam WAR actually DIVIDED the Greatest Nation to ever exist on this Earth.

We've listened to our popular so-called GOOD "leaders" and look where it got us. So maybe it's time to ask CM (the bad guy) about the Nation of Islam and what WE can look forward to.


equinox12314 said...

MHN said...

"...in real life... and squeeze hamsters until they shit blood."

Steady on, Michael, you're starting to sound like you are really Tex:)

Max Frost said...

Robert,

ISIS is just another Frankenstein product of the CIA.

Gotta manufacture FEAR in order to keep the public AFRAID...

As long as the public is afraid, they won't QUESTION or INVESTIGATE what their Government is really doing behind closed doors and after hours.

They REALLY know how to create a co-dependent society, don't they...?

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

Max:

So, did the US intentionally make ISIS? As in, CIA goons sat around with notebooks trying to one-up each other with their Creative ideas for horrific jihadi groups? And the one who thought up ISIS got free Cokes from all the others- as well as the sheer joy of seeing his mutant offspring rape & pillage across the Middle East?

Or unintentionally? As in, ISIS is a kind of red-headed bastard child, the indirect result of US foreign policy and geopolitical meddling... which the US has happily seized on anyway, recognising the brilliant Fear potential? (ISIS is much scarier than al-Qaeda ever was, let's admit it).

Not trying to be a dick (that's the Col's job lololololololol), just want to know what you mean exactly by "CIA Frankenstein product".

ziggyosterberg said...


Most cyber bullies are big pussies in real life, which is probably why they're cyber bullies.

If the man behind ColScott pseudonym had 1% of the intelligence that he claims to have, we wouldn't even be discussing him or his odious internet persona.

In this social media conscious age, calling women cunts, badmouthing the military and buddying up to convicted murderers and their associates who carve swastikas in their foreheads, while working in a business that might frown upon that sort of thing, is not only stupid, but an invitation to become the latest hashtag du jour #HollywoodScumbag who gets publicly crucified for our entertainment.

But have at it, if you must. I'll just sit back and watch.


Matt said...

Welcome to the "comments" Cali. Glad you decided to shed the lurker status.

Cali Dreamin 74 said...

Thanks, Matt. I've always found the conjugal visit issue interesting. I certainly understand why people oppose them, but I also understand the reasoning behind those types of visits. Quality family time. Giving prisoners brief periods of "normal". i used to provide counseling services at a women's shelter and a fair percentage of the women had done prison time, mostly for drugs. Many had children, and it was the children ,I believed, who benefitted the most.

Robert Hendrickson said...

AND the CIA was also involved in starting the Vietnam WAR, so WHO is the REAL "commander in charge." Do they EVER explore that issue in public schools OR college ?

Was The creation of ISIS Intentional, as V.B. asks ?

Because ISIS is NOW causing a "mass migration" out of its territories into Europe and because ISIS may eventualy cause a NEW sort-of Muslim religion, patterned more like the ancient Viking methods of power and control, it is entirely possible that our CIA is intentionally causing the snake to grow another "head" - this time at the end of its tail.

So when I hear the words FEAR an "Muslim" I think of Charlie Manson AND the CIA, but maybe that's just my warped and twisted mind at work.

I mean just look at the Hinman case - it's got more HS evidence (writings / images on the wall) than TLB. So Mr. "B" thought that meant "random" killings, but maybe it meant "random" motives - like what the fuck - nobody's SAFE ! Hense - FEAR, FEAR and more FEAR ! Remember what Paul Watkins said: "Charlie's trip was FEAR."

Actually, the Manson Family KILLINGS have CIA written all over them AND that would make Manson's SILENCE on the subject most SENCEable.

christopher butche said...

Mr Hendrickson, were the CIA just guiding the Manson Family or would you include The Weather Underground and Black Panthers in part of this mission to promote a fear in the USA?

On an aside does Californian prison system ending solitary confinement for notorious gang leaders and others affect Manson?

ziggyosterberg said...


I don't know about you all, but I can't scroll past Matt's James Van Der Beek like visage anymore without being reminded of what a horndog he is.....

Matt said...

Cali, I understand why victims' families would oppose the visits, and who could blame them. But, at the end of the visit the spouse goes home and the inmate stays in hell. Those visits go by quickly, I'd imagine like weekends to us as compared to the work week.

IMHO, if the prisoner has a chance of parole I'd prefer that he go home to a spouse who stayed faithful because of the visits rather than walk out with the Tazmanian Devil dwelling right beneath the surface.


Robert Hendrickson said...

I don't have the answer to your 2 questions, and almost glad of it.

Thanks for the book ref. There are a lot of docs on the 60's playing on NETFLEX you should be interested in, but then TOO much knowledge can be dangerous.

The 60's were OUR 2nd American revolution. AND because the Charlie Manson Life cover blew the Mi Lai Massacre right OFF the News Media's radar, I have to believe, at least, the capture and conviction of the Manson Family "maybe" was orcastrated for that very purpose.

P.S. The string of Manson Family KILLINGS were motivated to produce FEAR - see Inside the Manson Gang.

Vera Dreiser said...

Yeah, Don Murphy's a "teddy" or "panda" bear in real life, Patty.
Get real.
Google "Don Murphy" and "douche" or "asshole" and see what kind of assessors of character (Murphy, Stimson, Statman) the moderators of this site are. Would seem all you have to do is be connected to the case AND TALK TO THEM, and you're in like Flynn.
xxoxoxo,
Your Vera

Matt said...

equinox, you conjured her up! Ugh...


Panamint Patty said...

Patty mostly just scrolls past her yammering any more.

Vera Dreiser said...

Panamint Patty said...
Patty mostly just scrolls past her yammering any more.

Yeah, Patty, it shows.
Maybe you should read it. And learn something.

Suze said...

Patty you are missing out on learning here. Learning how to troll people you are jealous of. After all Vera has a rockin blog, has published a best selling TLB book and has made some Academy Award nominated films!

Panamint Patty said...

Word, Suze.

Panamint Patty said...

If anyone is coming to Sacramento on Sept 12 hit Patty up. Tours of the Dorothea Puente house are scheduled between 10 and 2. She will also give you the grand Squeaky tour. :)

equinox12314 said...

Panamint Patty said...
If anyone is coming to Sacramento on Sept 12 hit Patty up.

Patty, do you realise that in the UK, the phrase "hit Patty up" has a completely different meaning from what you intend here. Likewise with the phrase "She will also give you the grand Squeaky tour". Oh. My. God.

This thread has turned out totally differently from what AustinAnn ever intended.

equinox12314 said...

Matt said...
equinox, you conjured her up! Ugh...

Matt,

I've been doing spells from an old Aleister Crowley book that Kenneth Anger used to read:)

Matt said...

equinox, check your email.

Panamint Patty said...

If Patty remembers correctly "knock Patty up" means to come for a visit. Of course on this side of the pond its an invitation to impregnate her...funny...

And yes this post had gone way, way off topic! Lol

equinox12314 said...

Matt,

I've sent an email back.

Patty,

In the UK, it can mean knock at the door and wake someone up. But just like over in the US, it is generally meant as you say .......... You have to watch what you wish for in life .....

HellzBellz said...

@ Patty....And then we dont mean ,,Imprignate by TEST TUBE.......

Owhh and Miss Atkins Jail-Cell was where the Pictures were taken, nice Decorated....
and I found Donald La$uire more suitable to Susan... They made such a sweet couple. In that Marriage Susan Atkins was rehearsing some old skills ,......with a Knife

D. LaCalandra said...

Donald Lasuire was lying. Her being involved with Charlie made sense. Her marrying that guy was sinking to a much lower level and a great example of how lonely and pathetic the girls lives became.

HellzBellz said...

@ D.Lacalandra....

Donald Lasuire was lying....
No Kiddig. For Real ??

Matt said...

Lol Hans!!!

ColScott said...

Robin thrusts her fists against the posts and still insists she sees the ghosts

Max Frost said...

Vermouth,

It's a combination of both.

In case you didn't know, the CIA's objective is NOT protecting America - it's actually quite the opposite.

Matt said...

You can't deny laughter; when it comes, it plops down in your favorite chair and stays as long as it wants.


Vermouth Brilliantine said...

I have no love or trust for the CIA or US government, Max, just wanted to know where you were coming from. I don't think the US is competent enough to invent something like ISIS but it's sure given them a great excuse to keep sticking their hooks into the Middle East.

Can anyone else detect the strong, musky air of sexual tension between Vera and the Col? Imagine what their offspring would look like- Rosemary's Baby, maybe?

equinox12314 said...


Vermouth Brilliantine said...

"Can anyone else detect the strong, musky air of sexual tension between Vera and the Col?"

Yes, Vermouth, and it could end up as a love triangle between the Col, Vera and Matt.

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

I wouldn't be surprised. Matt will always find a way to insert himself (and his pink bits) into any romantic situation.

TracyL7291 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Max Frost said...

Vermouth,

When you say the U.S. isn't competent enough, you are instinctually referring to the visible U.S. Government (I.e., Congress, President, etc.). Yes, those entities are almost entirely incompetent...but they are not the ones running the Country - they only appear to be.

It makes for a great cover when you consider how incompetence tends to rule out culpability.

The CIA, however, is an almost entirely rogue and clandestine agency which has A LOT more to do with running the Country than most people realize. They operate above (and outside of) Congressional oversight, American law, and international law...and the interests they serve have absolutely nothing to do with the safety and security of America.

That being said, they are far more competent than the visible puppets that occupy Congress and the White House - and they will do whatever they have to do to fulfill their covert goals. And I do mean WHATEVER.

A lot of the time, the appearance of uncontrolled chaos is the desired effect.

TracyL7291 said...

If Don Murphy were to reproduce ( although I have doubts that he's even capable of it) his offspring would no doubt look very similar to the picture below. ( minus the nice teeth. )

He not only talks like a cartoon character in real life he also very strongly resembles one.

http://a1.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/023/Purple/10/34/82/mzi.oikoafzd.jpg

MHN said...

Max - please state unambiguously: what is the real aim of the CIA, what do they aim to achieve, and how exactly are they going about it? Please give real concrete answers, answers that are testable against facts on the ground in the real world.

Thanks!

MHN said...

Actually Max, screw that. Way off topic.

Max Frost said...

MHN,

This isn't the time or place for a lengthy history lesson. The answers are out there for anyone who devotes the time to research and learn.

I'll give you a hint as to a big part of it...

The CIA was started by Wall Street bankers and Wall Street lawyers. The CIA controls the drug trade and has been busted a number of times hauling tons of cocaine and heroin into the U.S. on their C-130's. The CIA launders drug money through Wall Street to the tune of 500 billion to a trillion dollars per year.

And that's only the beginning.

Throw in the toppling of foreign governments/leaders through covert operations...installing puppet regimes...local assassinations....controlling the U.S. Media...etc., etc., etc.,

It's a huge can of worms which is easily deciphered and has been brought to light many times. Americans, however, would rather prioritize sports and reality stars than pay attention to silly, unimportant things like this.

MHN said...

TracyL - Don's offspring would be more hideous than that. When he re-produces the results are soul-crushingly disfigured - have you ever seen Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen? There's something you'll spend the rest of your life wishing you could unsee...

Fiddy 8 said...

You don't see any soccer riots in America.

Fiddy 8 said...

OK, Detroit had an NBA riot, but that was after the game, not at the stadium.

Trilby said...

Fun With Paragraphs (Pt. 2)

Max, you're the voice of sanity. So, instead of tiptoeing past the clique of high school boys:

So is this the new McCarthyism, having to swear an oath of allegiance and worship to the military? Shall we have a blacklist of all those who refuse to do so? "Are you now, or have you ever been, a critic of our military-industrial complex?" Some of us don't buy into the brainwashing. But by all means, continue to insistently tell us in every post how many people you've killed to protect our freedom to allow oil companies, Halliburton, et al. to profit, Tex Jr... And thanks for helping to destabilize a country and creating a perfect storm in which ISIS is able to thrive and pose a REAL danger to the world. Yet god forbid anyone have an opinion other than blanket worship. Interesting article on gang members in the military in Radar magazine, 7/07. Are they heroes just because they wore a uniform? My great-uncle, a Bataan survivor, WAS a REAL hero. He was sickened by all the killing and torture. He did it to survive, & because he was drafted to serve his country. He didn't revel in it nor brag about it. He had nightmares the rest of his life. That's the difference between heroes like him and the CIA guys and Tex-es of the world. You ask me who the heroes were: the guys drafted for WWII and Vietnam.

Col. Scott spent a lot of time on a blog that was amazing and entertaining in its day, & continues to be a valuable resource. It's because of TLB elders like him that this blog exists. (Ummm, not elder as in aged. :)

Ann, all best wishes to you and your Mom. It's wonderful that you're there for her.

MHN said...

Max you are right: this isn't the place for a lengthy history lesson. That's why I didn't request one :) I asked only two very simple questions. What is their actual real purpose, and what precisely are they doing to achieve it?

and they will do whatever they have to do to fulfill their covert goals.

What are those covert goals? And how covert can they be if you found out about them? This organisation is, you say, far more ruthless and effective than the public face of US governance, and it has secret goals which it pursues ruthlessly and covertly. And yet you know all about it? And anyone with access to google can go find out all about it? That's a paradox, wouldn't you say?

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

I imagine their covert goals are to eventually turn the world into an unprotesting mass of glassy-eyed exhausted consumers, divorced from national & cultural ties, dazedly travelling from state to state, from low-paid unregulated job to low-paid unregulated job, helping a few relaxed greedy people at the top continue to live relaxed greedy lives in their fortified gated communities. Knocking out Gadaffi, Hussein & al-Assad is a brilliant move since those countries operated relatively independently of the global banking & finance system- so long as ISIS can eventually be cleared out the entire Middle East will eventually be opened up to the kind of free trade, 'investment' & Diversity the West has been enjoying so much over the last 4 or 5 decades.

I wasn't aware I was part of a clique of teenage boys. :( Does this mean there's a clique of teenage girls we can flirt with at Pop Tate's Chocklit Shoppe? I'd much rather just continue flirting with Matt, thanks. Tee hee.

Max Frost said...

Thanks Trilby - great to hear your words.

Vermouth,

You have hit it pretty well with your statement. The real reason Saddam was toppled and killed (if he was actually killed) was because he was abandoning the petrodollar and shifting to the Euro. The LIE about WMD's was quickly dispelled and then all of the sudden the Iraq invasion became about liberation...and the new Brady Bunch/Disney name for the 'war' was Operation Iraqi Freedom. Go figure. That's extremely laughable except there's really nothing funny about all this.

MHN,

Between what I said and what Trilby and Vermouth said, it's a good place to start.

As far as the patadox, as you call it, there have been investigators and whistleblowers uncovering this information for several decades.

Repeat: research and learn if you really want to know...

Fiddy 8 said...

I only found this blog because I was googling to see if Nelson was still alive, and now i got sucked in.

D. LaCalandra said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fiddy 8 said...

I appreciate ColScott. If for no other reason than he seems to be the only one here who understands there are no graves at Barker's.

MHN said...

Max & Vermouth - thank you both for your answers, I appreciate your time. I am not actually as scornful of these ideas as I might have sounded. I try to keep an open but sceptical mind. Not always easy. I hope Vermouth's two opening words aren't the biggest clue of all :)

christopher butche said...

Two years old, but the link below is for a journalist visiting the PHU at Corcoran, gives a fair idea about Manson's day-to-day existence, and you get to see his watermelons:
http://kalw.org/post/go-inside-prison-houses-charles-manson#stream/0

Mr Hendrickson, I forgot to add in the Yippies. Whilst I am not surprised that FBI would monitor any group it felt were anti-establishment, I was surprised to read about COINTELPRO in that under Hoover they made a definite effort to destablize and put an end to such groups. The book I mentioned has an interesting anecdote that one Black Panther group included up to six FBI informants, none of whom were aware of each other. The upshot being that one probably would suggest an illegal activity whilst the others would report back on it.

The Yippie Chicago 8 trial took place around the same time as the Manson trial and gives an interesting insight into disruptive behaviour and in particular how a judge can deal with it (chaining a defendent to a seat and gagging him). In addition there was a California Black Panther trial in which hostages were taken and the judge killed (by police). So the Manson trial being armed can be seen in context.

As to the Col. He has some tip-top material on his blog, including the Yalkowsky collection downloads, I really can't fault him for his generosity.

Robert Hendrickson said...

The CIA is so secretive that for over 50 years, until it was declassified, NOT even the people who worked there KNEW Area 51 was an exclusive CIA project.

The CIA got it's royal status in America when one man (a Russian
communist) worked on the development of the Atomic Bomb in New Mexico and reported HIS knowledge to HIS real comrades in Russia. This allowed Russia to create an atomic bomb within about 2 years.

This began the REAL cold war and the CIA was given ANYTHING and EVERYTHING it said it needed to PROTECT America from any such calamity from happening again. After it successfully developed the SR 71, the CIA grew into the most powerful organization in the history of mankind.

Thus, the CIA may be just a gang of dirty nasty KILLERS, but it sure is comforting to know THEY are on our side.

Apparently the CIA knows the value of FEAR, not unlike Charles Manson.


MHN said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MHN said...

Robert - but surely if the CIA's modus operandi is to create and nurture fear in the citizen - fear of commies, fear of Islam, fear of hippies etc, then surely a nuclear USSR was an unexpected bonus rather than a calamity?

Max - if ISIS was a creation of the CIA it appears to be backfiring slightly. The flood of immigrants from Syria et al is the first thing in several years that has European countries starting to talk seriously about border control, and restricting the free movement of cheap labor between states that the EU has previously inflicted on us. Is that part of the CIA's master-plan?

Could one not argue that employment has never before in human history been regulated as much as it is now? Would you sooner be a low-paid worker now or a hundred years ago? You could even rephrase VB's description to read that the CIA's ultimate aim is to facilitate free movement of humans so that they can work where they choose, and have disposable income to buy things they can afford, or not, or be entertained, or not, as they choose, while the companies who make things, or provide the services they buy, or not, make - horror! - a profit.

The doubt I have is that it's reminding me of global warming - when the theory first appeared we were given very specific, testable predictions. Almost none of those predictions have come to pass in the envisaged timescale, and real-world data diverges very sharply from predictions made two decades ago: so the predictions are quietly forgotten and the theory has now become so fluid that almost any and every event is - after the event - reported as being a consequence of climate change. That's why I asked for specific, concrete, testable answers. VB's (I mean Vermouth, not Bugliosi!) description of their aims is painted in such broad strokes that a skeptic could merely tweak it and rob it of its sinister import as a description of the way the world already works. Bread and Circuses. Nothing new, no conspiracy necessary.

Similarly with 'fear'. Either there are things in the world which we should fear, or fear is the product of a very subtle plot by the CIA to keep certain elite people wealthy and lazy, and everybody else bovine and compliant. When certain groups who oppose the US prosper it's seen as a CIA plot to use fear to control us (to the extent that we sometimes even claim the CIA created those groups). But when the CIA covertly deposes or destroys those groups it's somehow part of the same grand scheme? Sounds like an untestable, unverifiable, unfalsifiable, fluid theory with potentially unlimited post-hoc application.

CIA deposes Gadaffi and Saddam, sworn terror-sponsoring enemies of the US. CIA then creates ISIS. Why? Fear. Why? What exactly would a citizen be doing differently without this manufactured fear of ISIS? Would he stop spending the money that keeps the elite in their gated communities comfortable? Why? I just don't get how this works. I'm not dismissing it, seriously, I'm just puzzled, thinking aloud, and want to understand how this covert scheme actually works. What would be different in America without it?

Forgive me for asking so many questions. I could go and research this, but it's more personal and interesting to me if I ask you guys, because I'm here often and I respect your ideas.

Max Frost said...

That's where you're wrong, Robert...

The CIA is not on 'our' side.

Vermouth,

Not here.

Max Frost said...

P.s. MHN

You should see the movie THE FALCON AND THE SNOWMAN.

MHN said...

Max, I'll look for it, thanks for the tip :)

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

Max, not sure what "Not here" is referring to? Are we being WATCHED???

And MHN, you made me laugh. You're forgetting that we all make our own reality (this is some deep philosophical shit right here, take notes plz) so if I imagine something it's DEFINITELY true. (I bet Manson would agree with me). Plus I'm always right anyway. And devastatingly good-looking. Matt and I are getting married. Sorry Col.

I didn't say everything was a "CIA plot" though, nor do I personally think ISIS was 'manufactured'. I can see why Max believes what he does though and I agree with him here & there. I think the US is shitting bricks that ISIS is doing what it's doing- the plan was to have puppet 'democracies' in places like Iraq, Syria and Libya, not a transnational revolutionary Islamic movement with the capability to expel US forces and influence from the region. I do broadly believe though that what I stated is happening, is happening- just not that the "CIA" are necessarily the sole group pulling the strings. Up until a few years ago I didn't think that way at all, I was very pro-US and pro-Israel and scoffed at conspiracy theorists. Maybe it is weird and paranoid, but it really feels to me like the West is being broken down and made to submit to a bullshit agenda (has been since at least the 70s & 80s, particularly since Reagan & Thatcher) where cultural ties & centuries of tradition & hard-won labour rights don't matter- what matters is the free flow of capital and labour, and if achieving that lofty goal means creating porous borders, encouraging mass immigration worldwide, convincing people they have no culture (and if they do it's Racist and shameful & should be suppressed), and siphoning away labour rights- well, They (whoever They are) will do it. They are doing it, from my perspective anyway.

The bullshit Europe is being forced to undergo at the moment though is, I think, a step too far. The genie's been let out of the bottle and despite the best efforts of people like Merkel the Europeans are beginning to question the sanity of what they've been forced to accept as Normal. If it's not reined in properly either the far-right or the far-left will rise up again and shake things up, and maybe that's needed.

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

Then again- maybe none of this is being planned. Maybe we're just living in a revolutionary period, economic & technological forces beyond any one person or group's control have created the perfect conditions for mass immigration & globalisation and as a result we're experiencing a big period of upheaval and the way things work Will Change Forever. That's probably more likely than an actual conspiracy! It still sucks the Big One, though, and rather than sit on their hands our corrupt flabby leaders should be doing something to mitigate the worst side-effects of these processes. They're not, though- they're either too scared (ever see Yes, Minister? and you'll know how scared politicians are of "courageous decisions") or their own mates' snouts are in the trough and making a mint from the situation, so why fight it?

Even if that's the case it's still bullshit and I don't understand why the West should let that provoke it into committing hara-kiri through indecision, which seems to be the status quo at the moment.

MHN said...

VB - I agree with most everything you just said. Especially your final sentence, which summed up the whole bottle of shit we've uncorked. I would add 'self-righteousness' to 'indecision'. Well said VB.

Max Frost said...

Vermouth,

Sorry, my 'not here' message was meant for MHN.

But since you mentioned it...YES, we are being watched!

Do you realize that every single phone call, text message, email, etc. is being SPIED ON???

Not so long ago, anyone who claimed that was labeled a 'kook' or 'conspiracy theorist' rather than a 'patriot' or 'hero.'

Edward Snowden proved it to be TRUTH rather than THEORY.

And with that little piece of knowledge, you STILL wanna error on the side of the CIA?

Repeat: research and learn.

Trilby said...

Brilliant summary, Vermouth. I wasn't including you in the clique, but keep flirting with Matt, by all means. :)

Look at what we did with China: Demonized the country and communism - but now that the Wal-Marts and Donald Trumps can profit from China via trade, cheap labor, etc. - hey, everything is okay, they're our FRIEND, & communism - what communism? The hypocrisy is epic. How does anyone not see that this country does have a national religion and it's called capitalism - & the god we're consistently reminded to worship is consumerism. As long as the oligarchs, corporations, & finance sectors have control, it will continue to get worse.

This whole "automatic veneration of the military" is a propaganda campaign, pure and simple. Hand-in-hand with the current attempts to militarize police forces. Even as people remind us on every post that they "fought for our freedom to sit and criticize the system, whilst in our briefs or bikinis", our rights are being systematically stripped away bit by bit. Goebbels surely must be proud of his Project Paperclip, etc. descendants: the propaganda has reached the epic proportions of stifling free speech by use of automatic trigger words planted to immediately cause a knee-jerk response. Whoever came up with this b.s. "p.c." concept was an evil genius. And make no mistake about it, there are p.c. trigger words and concepts on the "left"and "right" (two more terms designed to polarize.).

I have a friend who was in the 82nd, then went on to the Border Patrol and now the ATF. Another friend in the ATF who I suspect is now CIA as he can no longer discuss anything & is overseas frequently on assignment. Another lifelong friend is retired Navy, now with the NSA. Clearly we have very different views, but I do respect their choices, courage, & service. Why? Because none of them have EVER bragged about killing people nor have any of them ever denigrated or bullied me for having a dissenting view.

Matt, awesome banner ad for Bernie at the top of the blog! Clearly, the computer cookies (I like to think of them as actual cookies) are doing their job. :) #Bernie2016

Matt said...

Mr. Humphrat said...

Matt would you say the Col. believes the insults he writes but has a dry sense of humor and is not bitter?


Hump, I think he dishes it out and walks away from the computer giggling at how clever he is at stirring. When he returns and sees the push-back he laughs even harder. If you are offended by his comments then you just don't get him. Maybe it's because we are from the same neck of the woods. Half my friends were like that.



Max Frost said...

Oh, I need to add that my 'not here' message had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that we are currently living in Nazi America...

I was simply reiterating what I said earlier about this not being the place for a history lesson.

Matt said...

Trilby, just about anything you search for on Google is cookied and tied to your computer. Then any Google ads you see reflect those searches. The biggies are even sharing the info now. You can like something on FB and boom, it translates to ads you see on MansonBlog. It's irritating, but fascinating to me.



Trilby said...

Actually, I meant to say that the national religions are capitalism and consumerism, and the god worshipped is the Great Almighty Dollar.

Trilby said...

Yeah, the remark was tongue-in-cheek, Sunshine. :) It cracked me up when I saw that. Google knows me better than my ex did, I think. God Bless cookies and algorithms! Some days I wonder if google is the elusive anti-christ. I've been wild for Bernie since Day 1, so no surprise there; but there have been times when I've googled a product and had it show up as a banner ad within minutes on the next site I open up. It's scary.

Trilby said...

But yes, also fascinating to me, too.Sorry, not enough coffee yet.

Matt said...

My wife swears that once she just THOUGHT something and a banner appeared. Lol...

MHN said...

Trilby, your post reminds me of something that has always disturbed me: so many acronyms. Why on earth does the USA have SO MANY government agencies, often with seemingly overlapping briefs? And why do so many of them have what you might call paramilitarised enforcement units? It's really disturbing. It's as though a huge overarching web is being constructed...

MHN said...

Max

But since you mentioned it...YES, we are being watched!

Yep.

Do you realize that every single phone call, text message, email, etc. is being SPIED ON???

Yep.

Not so long ago, anyone who claimed that was labeled a 'kook' or 'conspiracy theorist' rather than a 'patriot' or 'hero.'

Yep.

Edward Snowden proved it to be TRUTH rather than THEORY.

True dat. I'm surprised he hasn't met with an 'accident'.

And with that little piece of knowledge, you STILL wanna err on the side of the CIA?

Nope. Not at all. They are the antithesis of what I believe in, but I just wanted to get your take on things.

Robert Hendrickson said...

The CIA's objective is NOT to put FEAR in the minds of ordinary folks, but maybe some respect for when IT emerges - eventually in time to RULE the world.

Mr. Policeman's JOB is to drown YOU with FEAR 24/7 AND, by God, if YOU don't SEE that, YOU are mentally Bliiiiinnnnddd !

Sorry Max, I miss-spoke, the CIA does NOT take sides - IT has ALL sides covered.

Michael; WE intentionally caused the financial melt-down in Europe because the NEW Euro-dollar was intented to UNIT and over-power our US dollar.

WHY create ISIS and the mass migration IT is causing into Europe ? I don't know YET - but show the WORLD just how powerful America is - could be a start.

VIETNAM actually SHOWED the word that America was THEN willing to become a nasty "aggressor" instead of just a "nice" guy.

AND maybe the POPE is coming to visit America so we can "suffer the little children unto HIM" while they toss those Brinks bags into the back of the Pope-mobile.

OH, that makes me think that ISIS may already be programmed to be the NEW Muslim / Capitalist ruler of a "united" Middle East.

MHN said...

Robert, I'm open to all of those possibilities as being true. Would it not help show the world how nasty and powerful America can be if it actually won a war, decisively and definitively, for the first time since WWII?

And I'd love your take on the Iran deal :)

Marlene Ful said...

Is this during her I found God time.

starship said...

Surely the government isn't reading comments posted on a Manson Blog? Perhaps this is the last frontier of free expression.

Matt said...

I don't know about that, starship. These comments inspired me to read up on Snowden. One thing that jumped out at me was this:

The NSA was shown to be "secretly" tapping into Yahoo and Google data centers to collect information from "hundreds of millions" of account holders worldwide by tapping undersea cables using the MUSCULAR surveillance program.

Blogs like these are part of Google accounts so if the above is accurate then...

Robert Hendrickson said...

MICHAEL: That is what THEY teach you in school, BUT the reality is: the party who "wins" a WAR in a foreign country is NOT always the long term "winner." IE: VIETNAM - had America "won" the WAR and stuck around, it would have been obligated to "clean-up" ALL the "Agent Orange" and "Naplam" contamination. That cost would have been MORE than the cost of the WAR itself. Today, there is STILL a hospital in Vietnam that treats ALL the "defective" babies STILL born of the "contamination."

IF America had knocked-off Suddam Husane and then LEFT, we could have saved ga-billions of $$$ in re-building Iraq.

In the Mexican / American WAR, US troops got all the way to Mexico City and THEN realized - what the fuck are we going to do NOW ? They were SMART thinkers back then and turned around and left.

I'm sure that is WHY we don't invade Mexico and take out the EVIL "Drug "Cartels." Then what - feed, and provide Obamacare for the entire Mexican population ?

A President ignites a WAR and an organation like the CIA is commissioned to clean-up the mess it helped create.

Iran has had a nuclear bomb for years, and IF not, it is so ignorant, it doesn't even have the brains to HIRE someone to develope one for them.

For God's sake, the Indians have one and even the Pakistanis. YOU smash TWO fucking ATOMS and wala.

America got the Gulf of Tonkin WRONG in Vietnam and America got Weapons of mass destruction WRONG in Irag. That's two out of two, so maybe Iran will make America a three time loser.

Trouble is: that only means something like the CIA needs to take over, so at least we have a chance at "one" out of four.

Because the videos of war-torn migrant babies being washed-up on beaches are NOW going viral, I suspect "soccer Mommies" everywhere will soon demand WE send in the Marines and a NEW episode will hit the air waves.

Makes More sense to me: to load-up ALL the violent prisoners in America onto C 130's (armed of course) and deliver them to the door-step of the EVIL Bashard of Syria. AND IF they take Bashard alive, take him to an awaiting "tent" where he meets REAL evil - "TEX" - first hand.

MHN said...

Robert. This is good stuff: sometimes war is so messy that you win by not "winning". It's basically like going nearly all the way with a fine lady, but coitus interrupting before erupting so there's no junk to clear up and no baby draining your life away. You know you won the war and you get to avoid the responsibilities of being the Victor. Maybe WWII and the cost of rebuilding and then defending Europe taught America a valuable lesson. Nation-building is expensive even when you're wanted, and impossible when you're not. Thank you Robert.

AustinAnn74 said...

I'd like to know why I am constantly getting bombarded by Flo from Progressive Auto Insurance. I cannot escape her. Everywhere I go, I see her pointed head, apron & smug face. Now, she pops up on the side of the computer when I get on. She is on YouTube too. I've never thought about changing my auto insurance and have been with "The Hartford" for years, but Flo keeps trying....and trying....and trying.....I really HATE Flo and want to physically attack her. Sorry, I got off the subject at hand.

Kevin Marx said...

MHN said:
"It's basically like going nearly all the way with a fine lady, but coitus interrupting before erupting so there's no junk to clear up and no baby draining your life away."

Michael, you get my vote for analogy of the year :)

Suze said...

AustinAnn, the NSA is obviously monitoring your every move. They want to break you down so they have tapped into your hatred of the white apron/red lipstick combo and want to push you into committing a CIA inspired murder. You are a soft target since you are already obsessed with violent crime.

Max Frost said...

Of course, this stuff used to be talked about a lot more casually and without the 'kook' and 'conspiracy theorist' labels being thrown around.

http://investmentwatchblog.com/remember-when-ron-paul-was-asked-if-the-cia-was-involved-in-drug-trafficking-he-said-i-think-george-bush-is-deep-into-it/

It's amazing - the level of brainwashing and mass mind control these days...