Monday, September 21, 2015

Bruce Davis 2015 Parole Hearing Thoughts!


Just read the transcript (thanks to Cielodrive.com) from Bruce Davis's 2015 parole hearing that happened not even a month ago on August 27th. Wow, what a read it was! It's funny how Bruce Davis reiterated a few things such as:
  • Gary Hinman was, in fact, killed over a ROBBERY (no drug deal or burn mentioned)
  • Danny DeCarlo was not mentioned as riding in the car to take the bums over to Gary's
  • When he came back from Europe, Helter Skelter planning was on everyone's mind, hence the idea not having been pulled out of Vincent Bugliosi's rectum.
  • According to Bruce Davis (again), Shorty Shea was killed in the morning, not evening as Barbara Hoyt keeps insisting. Why did Steven Grogan describe the crime as having happened the exact, same way as Bruce when he went before the parole board too? Why would they lie about the time of day he was killed? Could Barbara have heard someone else screaming? How does she know 100% it was Shorty? There is something else I have never been able to figured out about this screaming thing either. Okay, Ruby Pearl testified that the last time she saw Shorty was at night, when she was leaving Spahn ranch to go home. She also testified that Shorty was very scared and wanted to stay at her house, even though she told him she didn't have enough room. When she was driving off the property, she saw a group of guys surrounding Shorty. My question is this: If Shorty was so scared and didn't even want to stay there that night, why would he have taken them for a ride to the auto parts store in the morning? Would he have gotten in the car with Tex, Bruce & Clem if he was frightened enough to want to stay somewhere else the night before? That makes no sense. That is the ONLY reason I thought Barbara was telling the truth when I first read about what she testified to. Now, I just don't know. 

Brucie also mentioned a few things I had never heard before either, such as:

  • He actually witnessed Manson stabbing Shorty Shea (ah ha! So he did spill blood after all!)
  • He saw Bill Vance standing at the Shea crime scene, along with Tex & Grogan, all three holding BLOODY knives (I thought Bill Vance left with Goldilocks the day after Gary Hinman was killed?)
  • Watson stabbed him the first time, yet Grogan is labeled the actual "killer" of Shea (no sense makes sense)
  • Shorty was sitting up after he had been stabbed and had the strength to ask Manson why he was stabbing him (awful, just awful)
  • Bobby Beausoleil requested the gun from Bruce to use in the robbery of Gary Hinman. Bruce and/or Danny DeCarlo didn't lay it in his hands and instruct him how to use it, like Bobby loves to claim
  • Bruce has been diagnosed with emphysema, yet the parole board commissioner kept insisting he was healthy (the parole board commissioner was being a total smart-ass, btw)
  • Bruce claims that he keeps his chin up, even though he's had his hopes shot down by the governor three damn times (he probably returns to his cell and screams "mutherfuckinshitfuckasscuntdicksonofabitch" into a pillow
  • If released, Bruce will be able to collect social security checks from his ex-wife, much to the annoyance of the Los Angeles ADA that was there to oppose parole
  • Manson, most definitely blabbed constantly about Helter Skelter, but Bruce doesn't really know if Manson believed in it himself. He talked about it as if he had a God complex. (Note: Helter Skelter did NOT come out of Vincent Bugliosi's rectum)
  • Bruce thinks that Manson's motivation was total power & control. (I think it was total power & control AND an endless supply of uh... hair pie)


Might I add, the extremely odd "victim's impact statement" given by Debra Tate. Please note, a victim's impact statement, according to California parole hearing rules is supposed to only focus on how the crime (s) impacted the family members of the victims (not her). Her statement had a few "I's in it and I think one "Me." Note: Before a certain "merkin-breath" starts in on the personal attacks, please note that I very much would like to kick this person in the ovaries.... Continuing.... I am not trying to dis Debra Tate, ladies & gentlemen. This woman, I know has had her share of grief and I know she has been greatly impacted in a cruel, hard way from a terrible crime in which Manson, Watson, Atkins & Krenwinkel were all involved! Not so much Bruce Davis, though. Yes, he was part of "The Family" I know, but so was Barbara Hoyt and you see them sitting together during parole hearings. Crazy, huh? I know Debra was there as a victim's representative & all, but I still think it was weird. I am not sure if she wrote this statement or if she just said it in a spur of the moment situation. If it was spur of the moment, maybe she was nervous. One time I had to say a spur of the moment speech in front of a whole auditorium of people back where I used to work and I was so nervous, I accidentally said the word FART instead of START in my sentence. Maybe this was the same kinda situation. I still think her statement was weird, though. See what I mean:

Coming, sir. Hello. I feel very privileged to be here and be able to talk on behalf of the remaining family members involved in Mr. Davis' heinous crime. I know firsthand how devastating these acts of extreme ugliness in the fashion that our loved ones were taken from us has. It is a fashion which never goes away from your memory and all of this has been concurred by the Hinman family as well as Shorty Shea's divorced wife and child. It causes great pain, strife, fear that has caused me also to lose family members. It is an extreme stress. I personally don't see enough remorse in any of these people and I do look for it. I represent other families and when I see it, I give it. I just don't see it here, the fact that the family members feel that seven years to life but somehow these good Christian people feel entitled to take it to the minimum sentence, which is seven years, is quite offensive, to tell you the truth. It has a low end and a high end and the high end being life. We believe that these people need to pay with life. The American public believes that these people need to pay with their life. The American people believe that these folks need to stay in jail for the rest of their life and they are trusting that that is exactly what is going to happen. It's actually quite a chore to prove that any one or all of these people are not going to receive just that. So it is the collective of the remaining victims' families as well as the rest of the United States and many other countries in the world. And based on that fact, Commissioners, I would implore you to give Mr. Davis an appropriate amount of time equal to his heinous, ugly taking of two viable, useful members of society's life and did nothing and in that way planned and ultimately was a part of, although not in person but in spirit, of the loss of my sister. Thank you very much. 






77 comments:

equinox12314 said...

Hi Ann,

So nice to see you posting. Lots of pertinent points appear in the transcript. It looks like Bruce at least is telling the truth about Gary’s tragic demise. I wonder if Michelangelo Beausoleil (the man with Van Gogh’s ear for music) will give a totally different version, thereby ensuring he will never get the green light from the Board. No one involved in the Hinman murder other than Leonardo da Beausoleil (and Charlie) mentioned a drug burn.

Interesting that Davies places Bill Vance at the scene of Shorty’s murder, which would make BV’s lady somewhat ‘economic with the truth’. A pity Vance didn’t do some time, because whether he wielded a weapon or not, the sheer number of people on the scene would be contributory to Shorty being unable to escape. I am inclined to go with Bruce and Clem on the time of the killing because in 1969, an auto parts store wouldn’t be open late at night (unless that was the case in the US in the 60’s, but it certainly wouldn’t have been open at that time in the UK). It is peculiar that if Shorty intimated to Ruby Pearl that he was frightened, why would he then get into the car with the gang the next day? They may have approached him in a very friendly manner, and therefore Shorty would think he had been over-reacting the previous night.

I can’t think why the Assistant District Attorney would object to Bruce receiving social security payments, because he would need financial help in the event of his release. You can’t live off thin air! Prisoners have to be given some assistance or else they will return to crime to survive. Also, it must have been a medical professional who certified that Bruce has emphysema, which is debilitating. Therefore, why is the Parole Board Commissioner saying he is healthy? OK, Bruce is not terminally ill or anything like that, but his condition would make it less likely that he has the physical capabilities for violent crime.

The references to Helter Skelter may be an attempt by Bruce to pin the blame on Charlie because we have seen similar from both Atkins and Watson, but as you say Ann, Bugliosi didn’t invent it. However, the Bug certainly used it to the max when he had little else to go on.

As for Debra Tate, I assume (hope) that she was talking without a script because her speech doesn’t flow very well. Obviously, she is there at the request of the remaining Hinman and Shea families. However, even if it could be proven with cast iron evidence that the motive for the TLB murders was to spring Bobby out of jail, then it could be argued that Bruce’s role in Hinman was not directly violent. Yes, he held a gun on Gary, but his role was much less than that of Mary Brunner, Susan Atkins, Charlie and BB. Debra is stretching it a bit far to connect Bruce to her own family’s tragedy.

If the Parole Board Commissioner is a 'smart ass' as you say, then Bobby's forthcoming hearing (in person this time) should be entertaining!!

Matt said...

I always look forward to AA's parole transcript book reports. She tends to see things the rest of us miss. Thanks, AustinAnn!

AustinAnn74 said...

I remember back in Jr. High school, I spent the night at a friend's house and her dad was up hacking, spitting up, choking, coughing and writhing in misery from emphysema. He was a cigarette smoker for years before that. I didn't sleep all night long and was deeply disturbed at hearing this poor man suffering. It was like hearing someone being strangled and that sound never left my memory. It made me never want to smoke, though. I wonder if Bruce is already in that stage? If so, I feel nothing, but compassion. It's the most awful thing to witness.

AustinAnn74 said...

No, thank YOU, Matt!

Matt said...

About 30 years ago I went out on a date with a young lady. It went well enough that she invited me in to meet her parents. The house was impressive and in a very nice neighborhood. Before we got out of the car she said, "whatever you do, don't say ANYTHING bad about tobacco."

When we got in the house her dad (who couldn't have been more than 50 or so) was on oxygen and couldn't string together three words without getting out of breath. There was a series of wooden chairs placed strategically every 10 feet or so because apparently he couldn't walk any farther than that without sitting to catch his breath.

The big house on the hill was earned as an executive with P. Lorillard (a huge tobacco conglomerate), hence the warning in the car. The poor bastard was dying but was defensive about tobacco.


AustinAnn74 said...

Matt, you are in prime tobacco country, huh? Doesn't Manson have emphysema too?

Matt said...

Well, compared to the rest of the country we are behind the times when it comes to tobacco. NC was among the last states to ban smoking in restaurants and bars. Before then I could only go to non-smoking establishments.

Thankfully tobacco use is way down everywhere in the US. As a lifelong asthma sufferer it couldn't have come fast enough. I'm also very thankful that perfume is now rare.


Suze said...

I'm pretty sure Manson does have emphysema.

Robert Hendrickson said...

WOW - Cigarettes will issue Manson Family KILLERS their FINAL rewards !

NOW I know why Sandra Good was THREATENING Corporate heads to STOP "polluting."

SHE only cared about "protecting" her comrades. The public was just colateral life SAVING to HER.

WARNING: Better NOT ride in a GM hearse - the faulty ignition switches are just lying in wait to KILL you.

AustinAnn74 said...

I hate perfume/cologne too. It gives me a headache, even though I own a bunch of bottles. I don't wear it anymore. There isn't anything like smelling like nice, clean, just-out-of-the-shower soap with shampooed hair. On men, it is especially nice! :-)

Cuntry Trash said...

I don't think anyone really believes Helter Skelter was Vincent's creation, since it was most definitely spoke about. I think people say Vincent pulled Helter Skelter as a PRIME, and SOLE motive for the murders "out of his rectum".

There were obviously so many reasons why the murder went down, and to incite a race war may have not been the prime and sole reason.

And Even Vincent told Bill Curtis during a 40th Anniversary show that he too did not believe that Manson believed in Helter Skelter.

Bruce also once said that Larry Bailey was also there with a bloody knife. He hesitates to speak about him now, calling him an innocent kid at the wrong place at the wrong time - when in reality Bailey became a very VIOLENT antiauthoritarian.

It makes sense that Vance (real name was William Rex Cole) was there with Bailey if Windy Bucklee is being honest about a) Shea beating the snot out of Vance and B) Shea stripping Bailey naked and tying him to a tree naked, facing Santa Susana.

Cuntry Trash said...

PS: the bad air quality in prisons can also cause emphysema, dust and second hand smoke as well as mold and such. But, I am sure Bruce is still a smoker and smoking caused it.

Mr. Humphrat said...

I have so much to say about this great post Ann but I'm not sure where to Fart!

Matt said...

Speaking of which, I once witnessed a co-worker have an allergic reaction... to his own fart. His sinuses closed up and a blood vessel in his eye ruptured. Served him right.

equinox12314 said...

@Cuntry Trash

Refresh my memory please. I am sure that among all the stuff I have read about this case, that Bailey got tied to the tree because he was found to be spying on family members like Juan Flynn who were staying somewhere other than Spahn. I just remember the bare bones of the story and I'd appreciate more detail.

equinox12314 said...

Matt said...

"Matt said...
Speaking of which, I once witnessed a co-worker have an allergic reaction... to his own fart"


@Matt, charcoal lozenges are the answer. They neutralise the pong. Every workplace should have some!!

Sunshine69 said...

No disrespect here but I am seriously sick and tired of Debra being in the midst of every thing (Literally EVERYTHING) pertaining to these cases outside of what involves Sharon. Bruce Davis has nothing to do with what happened on Cielo Drive. Yes he was a part of the madness as a whole but the fact that she's even allowed to speak at his parole hearing is ridiculous. It's time to stop the circus and let the higher ups have a mind of their own. How can a panel be objective and focus on the facts when people in the room (who shouldn't even be present) are reinforcing the fear factor? How does she or Hoyt REALLY know who still poses a threat to society or not? Murderers are given release CONSTANTLY. You know why? Because contrary to popular belief people do change and even more than that, their cases and circumstances aren't constantly thrust into the public's face and shoved down their throats to the point where reality and fiction are indecipherable. I'm not on any Mansonites side here but please.

Dry Martini said...

Since Larry Bailey was mentioned and I'm less familiar with this individual than other Manson morons, I did a little looking around the web and found this interesting read about Larry Giddings AKA Larry Bailey.

Larry Giddings, anti-authoritarian Prisoner of War

Boots said...

F*ck Bruce and his phony baloney god.

Matt said...

@ Sunshine - You have hit on something that many people here have an issue with. See the problem is that parole board rules allow for victims' families to appoint a representative if the don't attend themselves. In this case, DT. It is ridiculous looking in, but perfectly legal.

@ Dry Martini - Yeah, as Cuntry Trash mentioned he has a history of being a violent anti-authoritarian. I don't know how he lived through some of the stunts he pulled.


Matt said...

equinox12314 said...

@Matt, charcoal lozenges are the answer. They neutralise the pong. Every workplace should have some!!


equinox, if not for the instant karma the guy was cruelly dealt he may have gotten a stapler enema!


grimtraveller said...

Dry Martini said...

"Since Larry Bailey was mentioned and I'm less familiar with this individual"


Isn't he the guy that Linda Kasabian testified was said by Charlie to be "the drip from the white man's dick" or something like that because he was of mixed race ? I recall in the transcript, there being major objections to that coming out !

The parole transcript was fascinating. Lots of food for thought. I notice that when the ADA was giving his reasons why Bruce should be denied parole, in discussing the Shea murder, he now includes Charles Watson as part of the cast of murderers even though he wasn't even charged with it. Naughty, naughty !
But I wonder if Tex should ever get parole, if, as soon as he steps out of jail, he'll be met by detectives and arrested for that killing.
I don't know if it's ever happened as a topic but I'd be fascinated to see people's views on whether a co~conspirator or aider & abetter should receive the same sentence as the one that actually kills by their hand or doing.

Sunshine69 said...

Understandable for her to be the spokesperson for the families but I have to agree that it is inappropriate for Debra to repeatedly make this about her and how she perceives things. Changes made, remaining dysfunction and threat etc.

I'm sure this has been brought up numerous times and I hate to make a low blow but...how can this group of inmates (whether it be Watson, Davis, Manson, Krenwinkel) be repeatedly condemned by her for their wrongdoing when she turns a blind eye to the sins of her brother in law and often praises him. He may not have killed but he arguably killed someone's innocence if you're all unfamiliar with his situation after the tragedy. I've said it before and I'll say it again...the genuine fight for justice began with Doris and seemingly ended when Patti and Mr. Tate passed on. I sympathize with Debra for what she has endured. Her pain does not go unnoticed but I feel like she has this almost unlawful advantage and nobody calls her out on it.

This is completely unrelated but something that made my brain scramble- does anyone remember those pics of a breast-bearing Debra in the pool with good old Arnold Schwarzenegger and others? Remembering that he eventually became Governor and had say over the fate of the Manson clan. Could there have also been an unfair advantage there? She seemed awfully chummy and undoubtedly would have rounded people up to crusade in his direction with the letters of opposition. This is likely a whole different discussion but every time I stumble upon those images I can't help but scratch my head.

I'm sorry if I seem to be pitching a smear campaign but it bothers me how everything seems to be in her hands as with a puppeteer.

Matt said...

Sunshine69 said...

I'm sorry if I seem to be pitching a smear campaign but it bothers me how everything seems to be in her hands as with a puppeteer.


Not at all, Sunshine. You are hitting on real issues. We all recognize that DT suffered horrible loss. But, she has no dog in the other fights, like Bruce Davis.

And yes, her defense of RP and her employing a convicted pedophile in her efforts is hypocrisy. Her long ago "friendship" with Schwarzenegger seemed never to be brought up either - I assume for fear of retribution.

I don't blame her as much as I blame a parole board process that seems not to be bound to follow rules or even the law. A person convicted of murder may be what they are, but at least make the parole process fair, lawful and make the board members, witnesses and advocates accountable.



Sunshine69 said...

@ Matt , 🔝 Exactly! I'm glad I'm not alone in my observations.

Dawes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert Hendrickson said...

For KNOWING that the "faulty" ignition switches in GM cars were causing DEATHS (over 100) of innocent people, GM was just fined $700,000,000 BUT NOBODY has been personally prosecuted - and NO jail time.

STILL don't get it ?

Last night on the news they showed a photo of JFK, LBJ and Bobbby (official Vietnam WAR Secretary) McNamara together in thoughtful discussion.

What do YOU think THEY were discussing ?

1) How can WE create jobs for OUR unemployed Black men ?
2) How can WE destroy those EVIL Communists ?
3) What do WE want for lunch ?
4) All of the above.

STILL don't get it ?


grimtraveller said...

I also noticed in the hearing that Barbara Hoyt spoke of the travails that one of Shorty's daughters had gone through, including abuse, drugs and jail. And she both hints at and ascribes it to the Family. But Shorty wasn't involved with his 4 children from his previous two marriages and the one she talks about was coming up for 10 at the time of Shorty's death.
The Family possibly helped to screw up many lives but they can't be held responsible for every person, however remotely connected, whose life went down the pans.

equinox12314 said...

I wanted to say thanks to the owner of cielodrive.com for making the transcript of the parole hearing available to everyone.

I ran through the transcript very quickly and a couple of things spring to mind. I notice that Bruce describes Charlie as being 5ft 4, which may seem a minor point, but Charlie's height has been a point of debate on forums for years.

My other point is that Gary's cousin, Kay Martley, spoke on behalf of the Hinman family, and Barbara Hoyt was speaking on behalf of Shorty's daughter. Therefore, the victims of both of Bruce's crimes were represented. So why was Debra Tate there? She was surplus to requirement. It is patently obvious that the California Parole Board are not putting much weight on anything she says at Bruce's hearings or they wouldn't have approved his parole four times. She will champing at the bit to get to Bobby's parole hearing on 8 December, but again, BB had no direct involvement, if indeed any influence, on what went on at Cielo Drive.

equinox12314 said...

grimtraveller said...

"...The Family possibly helped to screw up many lives but they can't be held responsible for every person, however remotely connected, whose life went down the pans."

@grimtraveller,

Exactly. Where would their responsibility ever end? When I was skimming through the transcript, I also noticed in Kay Martley's statement that she refers to all the Family victims by name and then refers to 'others'. The Parole Board should have corrected her on that. There may well be other victims, but then again there may not. Until Family members are successfully convicted in a court of law for specific crimes, anything else is speculation.

ColScott said...

I feel bad for Ann, her sexual slang is so from another era it is distracting. And she seems to be of the opinion that a man in prison for 40 years with the slimmest hope of release is telling the truth about anything rather than just stating what she thinks the board wants to hear.



grimtraveller said...

Dawes said...

"For all the talk that keeps cropping up about time supposedly spent planning for Helter Skelter, it sure doesn’t seem to have been planned or executed very well"


It was the 60s, it was dreamed up in the mind of a young man, it was somewhat LSD redolent. There's an interesting parallel from the same era ~ the Beatles record company, Apple, and also, their plan to buy a Greek island that they could all go and live on with their wives, girlfriends, friends, associates, hangers on, drugs and kids. It was truly of the times. It makes for interesting reading.

D. LaCalandra said...

People believe what they want to believe. It's funny when people discredit a source and reference them at the same time when they say something that supports the conclusion they want. We all do it. Charlie was right when he said the only thing that makes reality is death. The murders are the only reality that isn't subjective with this story.

You can say he's telling the truth. Others can say he's telling the board what they want to hear and what he needs to say. Bruce hasn't been granted parole years in a row for being honest, but for following the rules.

AustinAnn74 said...

When did I say/type that I thought Bruce was telling the truth?

Dry Martini said...

I read in the 2014 parole transcript that the attorney mentions Grogan being released decades ago only because he led authorities to Shea's body. And Bruce still sits in prison because he DID NOT KNOW where the body was buried.

ColScott said...

AustinAnn- in your article, did you forget already?

Mr. Humphrat said...

Matt said...
I once witnessed a co-worker have an allergic reaction... to his own fart. His sinuses closed up and a blood vessel in his eye ruptured. Served him right.
that cracks me up!
I finished Restless Souls and was struck by the lack of mention of Debra throughout the book and at the end Brie says the two surviving sister's weren't close. I was left wondering if Debra had been involved in victim's rights or anything related to Sharon's death before Patti died.
Also, all the Tate's kept pointing out that Atkins had never apologized to them and they found her explanation that an apology would be so inadequate to be weak logic, but I can see how a murderer would feel that way-how could they apologize directly to the family without seeming insincere? It seems like if she did apologize to them directly they would reject it anyway.
I was struck by Doris's story of going to the Men's Colony at SLO and BB staring at her seemingly trying to intimidate her from behind the glass separator. I didn't know he'd been part of the Tex and Bruce clique in the chapel.

AustinAnn74 said...

Again, I never said I thought he was telling the truth. I was just pointing out what he said. I have a headache now, thanks, Col.

ziggyosterberg said...


The name of the composition is 'Neon Meate Dream Of An Octafish'......No! It's 'Hair Pie'.

ziggyosterberg said...


So if Bruce was such an avid Manson disciple/acolyte, why did run off to London for six months to work in a mail room for Scientology? Because Manson told him to? Why would a 'cult leader' want one of his followers to go join another cult? And what did Manson stand to gain from 'Operation : Work In A Mailroom'?

And why was Bruce still spouting Scientology dogma ("reactive") during the making of Robert Hendrickson's "Manson" movie in 1970, the year after Gary Hinman/Helter Skelter/Shorty Shea/et al?

Little Brucie Davis. Another convenient "follower" of L. Ron Manson.


equinox12314 said...

ziggyosterberg said...

"...And what did Manson stand to gain from 'Operation : Work In A Mailroom'?"

LMAO - really funny. Bruce, like Tex, would like to make Charlie responsible for THEIR actions. If Charlie was so domineering, why did he let Bruce go for six months to anywhere? Both Bruce and Tex moved freely back and forth from Spahn.

equinox12314 said...

Mr Humphrat said...

"I was struck by Doris's story of going to the Men's Colony at SLO and BB staring at her seemingly trying to intimidate her from behind the glass separator. I didn't know he'd been part of the Tex and Bruce clique in the chapel..."

@Mr Humphrat,

I've got 'Restless Souls' on order. Is there any indication of the year in which this happened? I couldn't see Doris Tate being intimidated by a squirt like BB. The woman had more guts than he could ever imagine. Did BB think it was alright for his chums to slaughter an eight month pregnant woman?

ColScott said...

Ann Baby

You have a headache because your admittedly very intelligent brain is filled with the same bullshit. I understand. I stopped blogging almost a year ago. If you stay the course you end up like Tom O'Neill- unhappy, unwell and with an imaginary book coming out any day now, no really.
FACT- If Orca Tate and Babs Hoyt walked into a Safeway they would consume everything except the paper goods.
FACT- Davis is never ever ever ever getting back with Charlie (T Swiftmania)
FACT- reading Hendrickson's post is bad mental health practice
FACT- We are talking about a 46 year old grotesque killing and you are talking about hair pies. It's Miller time!

Jody Welch said...

Hair pies and farts aside, did the parole board ask Bruce about any of the other unsolved murders the Family is suspected of committing? Or are they not bothering? Miller Time indeed!

ziggyosterberg said...


@equinox - If Harold True had been charged with conspiracy, as True claimed Bugliosi threatened to do, I'm sure that Bug would have told us that Manson sent True to go work in Ethiopia for the Peace Corps on a mission to indoctrinate the natives into Helter Skelter. Thereafter all violence on the continent of Africa is the handiwork of a poop-butt from Kentucky and Helter Skelter becomes a Global Conspiracy!

Makes sense, don't it? Manson sends Davis to London, so he's got Europe covered. Sends True to Ethiopia, so there's Africa. Juan Flynn visits his family in Panama for Christmas, Central America, but lets just say South America because it's close enough. All Bug needs now is a 1 family member each in Asia, Australia and Antarctica and then Helter Skelter is rockin' the globe.

Think of how many more books Bugliosi would have sold worldwide if he could shown that he thwarted Manson's plans for World Domination.

Oh wait. He already did that. My bad.


Mr. Humphrat said...

equinox, near as I can see it was 1989 because the chapter (14) starts in early 1989 with Doris founding Coalition for Victim's Equal Rights and getting lots of letters from all over. One was from an informant at the Men's Colony who'd run afoul of Tex and had dirt on him to convey to her. Then she and a journalist got in to see the informant, Steven Trouse, and in the lobby she sensed someone looking at her, and figured out it was BB. She didn't get intimidated but squared off and stared him down, arched her eyebrow, shook her finger at him and he shook his head and grinned and walked off, and she flipped him off. So yeah he figured out what she was about.

equinox12314 said...

@Mr. Humphrat

Thanks for that. I can't wait for the book to arrive - it will be interesting to read matters from the Tate camp's perspective.

equinox12314 said...

@ziggyosterberg,

HAHAHA. Ziggy, do you know what the grounds were that Vince would have for charging Harold True with conspiracy? The fact that he lived next door to the LaBiancas and knew the Family?

Robert Hendrickson said...

I think most all of us realize that the phrase "Helter Skelter" will keep each and every Manson Family KILLER behind bars FOREVER !

WE tend to look beyond the obvious, BUT the very THOUGHT of a RACE War scares the shit out of any world leader. Many years ago (1970's) the Edinbrough Film Festival in England requested to Screen "MANSON" and we soon discovered that the film was "banned" in the UK, as well as in most of the world. That forced ME to view the whole situation from a new perspective.

Just watch TV in America - cops (the establishment) are gunning down Black men almost every day - cause THEY are taught to be AFRAID of black.

AND they are acting like they are getting prepared for the coming revolution.

AND as Clem said - the blood will be up to the horse's bridle.

equinox12314 said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

"...the Edinbrough Film Festival in England..."

@Robert Hendrickson,

Hi Mr H, did you mean the EDINBURGH Film Festival? If so, I am in no way a Scottish Nationalist, but Edinburgh is in Scotland, not England:):) If you so wished, you could approach the organisers of the Edinburgh Film Festival again to see if they would screen "MANSON". With the current political mood here in Scotland, the fact that the UK has banned it, would mean it is more likely to be screened here!! Seriously, I think the film would be very well received.

MHN said...

RH - as an Englishman I can confirm that the defeated Scots are still officially appended to the UK, which consists of England.

Oh, and various limbs like Whales, Scot-land, and Northern Eyeland - whose economies are based on sheep, shortbread, and Sean Connery.

Suze said...

Michael isn't Scotland known for whiskey? That would make sense to me. Sean Connery loaded on whiskey eye-balling (ahem) a sheep.

MHN said...

Suze - 'known' for whiskey!? Of course you're right - but I didn't want to risk saying anything that might offend our Scottish friend equinox ;)

Matt said...

Good thing I did not have water in my mouth when I read that. I prefer to clean my monitor the old fashioned way!

Robert Hendrickson said...

While having my coffee this morning, I thought about finally revealing the TRUTH - that everything is just an illusion. Demacracy, freedom, liberty, love, hate, prosparity, pain, anger, etc., etc.

But first I read the recent posts AND there it was; the "Col" spouting-off the TRUTH.

So NOW there is one more - (the Col)

BRUCE and the rest of the Manson Family have known the TRUTH for ages.

AND you can't KILL the truth, just imprison IT.

So now what Col ? Make mine a Corona !

equinox12314 said...

MHN said...

"... Of course you're right - but I didn't want to risk saying anything that might offend our Scottish friend equinox ;)"

MHN, I was in fact serious about Mr H submitting "Manson" to the Edinburgh Film Festival again. The final submission date is sometime in November and I truly believe that up here in Scotland we would accept the film for public viewing. The 1970s have been and gone.

equinox12314 said...

Matt said...
Good thing I did not have water in my mouth when I read that. I prefer to clean my monitor the old fashioned way!

@Matt,

it has been abundantly clear to me for some time, Matt, that you are the most perceptive, aware person on this blog. :):)

MHN said...

What is the old-fashioned way of cleaning monitors? "Undocumented American" once a week?

Matt said...

The incorrect way would be from a laughter-based blast of water spray from my nose and mouth caused by picturing Sean Connery swigging Macallan from the bottle while pleasuring Shaun the Sheep!

Robert Hendrickson said...

NEWS FLASH: As HE departed from Cuba, HE said "Remember, if YOU sell your 1951 Chebee for $30,000 to an American car collector, you MUST give GOD (the Catholic church) 10% / $3000 or YOU will go to Hell. And MATT go to Hell for bad jokes."

Matt said...

Tough crowd today.


MHN said...

Matt in those circumstances I think Shaun would be more in need of the whisky than Sean would.

orwhut said...

My cousin's widow used to have a flock of nasty sheep that had sheep poop stuck all around their behinds. I often wondered how anyone could get the hots for one of those things.

christopher butche said...

Suze, whiskey is Irish and whisky is Scottish.

MHN, I post from Wales in a rural region with more sheep than people but with mobile phones and internet culturally we are now up to at least the late 1950s.

Harold True. Wasn't a bench warrant issued for his arrest as a no show prosecution witness toward the end of the guilt phase of TLB trial? I can see him being threatened with a conspiracy charge to urge him to testify.

Watson being charged with Shea. Wouldnt this require evidence plus witness testimony? Is there any? A bit like Grogan being on the TLB grand jury indictment but not being charged when the time came.

Larry Bailey wasnt he involved with the SLA? A robbery or break out in Canada not the Patty Hearst episode?

Personally I am always intrigued that Debra Tate perceives Hoyt as a fellow victim and never as a voluntary member of the Manson family at the time when the killings were happening.

christopher butche said...

Why dont inmate attorneys ever bring up Hoyt being a party to the everyday criminality and antisocial behaviour that is usually presented by the ADAs when painting a less than flattering picture of the lifestyle of the would be parolee?

ziggyosterberg said...


Harold True - from the legendary interview by Judy Hansen.

The part where he talks about Bugliosi and Bugliosi's threat of a conspiracy charge starts at 5:15 and lasts about 45 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZfRsYavQ90


equinox12314 said...

@christopher butche

Yes, there seems to be collective amnesia on the part of the ADAs and DT regarding Barbara's Family membership. Maybe they cut her some slack because of the LSD hamburger episode? DT seems to have forgotten that Babs used to comment regularly on the odious Bill Nelson's site.

Matt said...

christopher butche said...
Personally I am always intrigued that Debra Tate perceives Hoyt as a fellow victim and never as a voluntary member of the Manson family at the time when the killings were happening.


Chris, my hunch is that it is/was for a possible book deal. Every new book on the subject needs that new angle or info. "The victims meet The Manson Family" is what I think that is about. Looks like the publishers aren't biting.



christopher butche said...

ziggy, thanks for the link.

equinox, remember though that the hamburger episode was after Hoyt had agreed to a free vacation to avoid testifying in TLB against her friends. Personally I regard the Honolulu Hamburger episode was over-played in Helter Skelter to add more to the perceived threat of the Family to dish out fatal violence. Everyone bar Ouisch served sentences for that episode. Which it should be remembered went down from attempted murder to eventually preventing (or interfering with) a witness from testifying, cost everyone around about 40 days. Somewhere I've read Grogan felt pressured to cop a plea to head off a threat from the DA regarding going after the girls with young children (ie jailing mothers and separating them from their children).

Matt, wasn't Hoyt going to do a book with Nelson back in the 90s? Hoyt also got a bit excited when van Houten was out and visited Paul Watkins. Watkins swapped sides for the second trial whereas she didn't. I'm always struck that she is so hard on Van Houten when there doesn't appear to be that much between them with regards to time, place and destiny back in the summer of 1969.

equinox12314 said...

@christopher butche

Yes, Christopher, I remember she was subject to subpoena by Bulgiosi. What comes across to me is that Barbara Hoyt has managed to create for herself a central role in the case when, in fact, she was a minor figure in the Family. It's like attention seeking played out on a very public stage.

It is indeed strange why she is so antagonistic towards Leslie - perhaps there was jealousy on BH's part all along because LVH was one of the more attractive of the Manson women. Maybe Hoyt thinks that LVH is the most likely of any of them to gain parole. There seems to be a sentiment that if Bruce cannot get the green light from the Governor, then the chances for the rest of them is slim. But it has to be remembered that the Governor is taking into account that Bruce may have been involved in other killings, whereas that does not appear to be the case with Leslie.

It's strange that the remaining Family members who are on the outside keep a low profile except Ms Hoyt.


@ziggy thanks for the link. I love listening to Harold True - always entertaining:)

christopher butche said...


What baffles me is when during the previous convictions build-up during a parole hearing there will be mention of Grand Theft Auto no charges on Aug 16 1969. This of course refers to the Great Spahn Ranch Raid. And there usually follows comment about theft rings and general misbehaviour, but Hoyt must be sat there knowing full well that she too was picked up in that raid and gave a false name (Barbara Cryer). Similarly to the arson/theft Barker Ranch raids around 10 Oct 69 when she had been out there with the Family.

No one points at her and says "ask her, she was there". The character of the inmate is pulled apart over these matters, but Hoyt is above reproach as she is there as a representative of someone else.

AustinAnn74 said...

Col, you are correct on your analysis....I woke up this morning with the exact, same headache as yesterday afternoon. I didn't even fast. . . . .

Robert Hendrickson said...

EQ: Thanks for the Edinbourgh info - it's an iteresting idea, BUT you and a couple others may be the only ones who ever even heard of MANSON. BTW being Scottish you might solve this bit of triva for me. As a child I spent alot of time at my grandparents home in West Hollywood and next door were the "Scotts." I can still hear the accent. They were such close friends, I was told she was my Aunt Mini.

Anyway, at Christmas time he would set up this very elaborate scene in his front yard - reindeer, snow and all that Christmasy suff. My parents told me HE did this since buying the house in 1930 and that a newspaper picked up the story back then and that started the front yard Christmas decorations craze. So did HE bring this idea from Scotland ?
I still have the image in my head and it was somewhat spactackular.

BWT: On the other side of the "Scotts' was a young Herb Albert and I used to climb the back fence from my grandparents house - accross
Aunt MIni's to Herb'ies and sit on the fence listening to his band practice.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Herb Alpert? That's a pretty fun connection.

equinox12314 said...

@Robert Hendrickson

Hi Mr H,

I am posting below some more detailed information on the Edinburgh International Film Festival, with particular reference to the Documentary Festival which they have been running since 1947. I truly believe "Manson" would be hugely popular with cinema goers of all ages, not just us more mature folks! There is an award for 'Best Documentary' and you would be well in the running for that. The EIFF often features a Q&A session with the film's director. If you were interested in submitting, you could always ask if they would cover your expenses to attend.

On the subject of the Christmas decorations, that is so interesting to think that it was someone from Scotland that started that craze in West Hollywood. It can get out of hand with houses so illuminated over the festive period that you would think it was daylight!

http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk/films/doc-of-the-day

Reflecting our early beginnings in 1947 as a Documentary Festival, ‘Doc of the Day’ initiative will see a special spotlight turned on one documentary feature film every day.
Each ‘Doc of the Day’ title will have special activities organised around its Premiere, including:
• contributions from key guests
• specialist panels
• input from local and national organisations.


EIFF Submissions will open Tuesday 3 November 2015

EIFF seeks to represent the most innovative and adventurous developments in world cinema, to bring worthy filmmakers to local and worldwide attention, and to provide a forum for appreciative and informed discussion of their work.
We are especially interested in films by emerging filmmakers whose work manifests stylistic boldness, strength of form, and the ambition to use the medium in a way that resists cliché.
In 2016 the Festival will be celebrating it's 70th edition. Submissions for the 2016 Festival will open on Tuesday 3 November 2015.

The 70th EIFF will run from 15-26 June 2016.

Follow us on twitter - @edfilmfest / @eiffdelegates for up-to-date information on the Festival.



Beth Fairweather said...

Soooo, you are all for Bruce Davis then?? You think he was innocent, even though numerous people have and continue to testify to his guilt. Just because he didn't participate in the higher profile killings does not make him any less guilty. And I think it's pretty shitty of you to attack Sharon's sister that way. I totally agree with the families that these people - ALL of them who participated in any murders that can be proven - need to be locked up and the key thrown away. You are insulting the murder victims memories by taking up for this piece of shit. Pathetic. And Barbara Hoyt was mainly trying to get away, plus I don't believe she killed anyone so give her an effing break.

Matt said...

Hi Beth, welcome to the blog.

Where exactly in this post do you see that AustinAnn thinks he is innocent???

If you don't understand why Debra Tate isn't very popular then you really haven't done your homework.