Thursday, October 1, 2015

Frank Retz


One of the biggest recent stories in California has been about the wildfires that were greatly fueled by the fact that the state has experienced four straight years of drought. But, weatherpersons assure us, help in on the way in the form of an El Nino weather effect that will be the greatest since the winter of 1997-98. That would be good news, because the winter of 1997-98 was the second warmest and seventh wettest since 1895. Rainfall totals were the greatest in over a century and 53 California counties were declared to be disaster areas as the torrential rains inflicted over $550 million in damages on the state. There were also 17 storm related deaths, one of which is of particular interest to readers of the MF Blog: the death of Frank Retz, which occurred when his vehicle was engulfed by a bridge collapse at the site of the old Spahn Movie Ranch.

Frank Retz appears in the TLB literature as an agent for the Transcontinental Development Corporation (TDC), an outfit that wanted to buy the properties around Spahn's Ranch (and the ranch itself) in order to build a resort complex for German Americans. Since some people who wanted to develop this complex saw the presence of Charles Manson and his associates at Spahn's Ranch as an impediment towards acquisition of the ranch, efforts were made to have them removed from the property. One of these efforts involved calling the police in to harass the Manson people as often as possible, something that surely stirred up bad feelings. According to Danny DeCarlo, Spahn Ranch ranch hand Shorty Shea was hired by the corporation to keep an eye one the goings on at the back ranch house on the Spahn property. Shea did so, not only creating a lot of tension but also setting himself up to be murdered. Frank Retz started out as an agent for the corporation,and eventually acquired property adjacent to Spahn's Ranch where he established a residence for himself accessible over a bridge built over the creek running in the area behind and down the hill from the movie set structures. 

Retz had more than a passing involvement with the intrigues at Spahn's Ranch. He was familiar with the cast of characters, and they were familiar with him. According to Ed Sanders, Retz once gave a ride to Kittly Lutesinger when she was trying to flee the ranch. Retz was also involved with the encroachment of the German developers. He was the person who hired Shorty Shea in a security capacity to assist in efforts to have Manson and his associates thrown off the ranch. Retz's participation in these activities (he even personally set up the arrest of Manson and Stephanie Schram in one of the outlaw shacks on August 24, 1969) earned him such animus from "the Family" that Manson Prosecutor Stephen Kay later said that Retz was next (after Shea) on the list of those to be murdered in the summer of 1969. 


Frank Retz survived the summer of 1969. But he would not be so lucky in the winter of 1997-98.



From the February 9, 1998 Los Angeles Times:

Chatsworth Man Dies; 2 Escape Crash

Accident: Car plunges into a ravine. Authorities uncertain if bridge was washed away or if it collapsed under vehicle.

February 09, 1998  SCOTT GLOVER, TIMES STAFF WRITER

CHATSWORTH — A World War II German Army captain who emigrated to America after the war and found success as a businessman became a victim early Sunday of the recent series of powerful storms that slammed the Southland. Frank Retz, 84, was killed when the car he was in fell to the bottom of a 60-foot ravine near his secluded home.

Authorities were still investigating Sunday night whether rain waters washed away an earthen bridge that led to Retz's home off Santa Susana Pass Road, or if the weight of the car in which he and his friends were riding caused the bridge to collapse.

The car, which belonged to Andy and Helen Gattuso, plunged to the bottom of the ravine about 1:30 a.m., authorities said. The Gattusos, both in their 60s, managed to crawl out of the overturned vehicle and climb up the edge of the embankment.

But when the couple reached Retz's home, the power was out and the telephone was dead, said Capt. Michael McMaster of the Los Angeles Fire Department.

Authorities were called six hours later when someone on their way to Sunday morning services at the nearby Church at Rocky Peak saw the couple waving their arms for help.

"I looked over and saw them standing there, and they definitely looked like they needed help," said Dan Oran, an usher at the church, who arrived minutes after the parishioner who called 911.

The Gattusos were taken to Granada Hills Community Hospital, where they were treated for minor injuries and released. They were recovering Sunday afternoon in their Northridge home and did not wish to speak with reporters.

Coroner's investigator Erik D. Arbuthnot said it was not immediately clear what caused Retz's death. Despite the fall, there was little obvious trauma to his body, he said.

"He might even have drowned. He might have had a heart attack. We don't know."

McMaster said there was a 3-foot-wide culvert that channeled water from a stream underneath the earthen bridge that led to Retz's home.

Tina Thompson, a neighbor, said the bridge had been "red tagged" as unsafe by city building inspectors because Retz installed the drain himself, then covered it with fill without the proper permits.

"He used to tell me he wasn't going to let the city bureaucracy tell him what he was going to do on his property," she said.

Thompson's account could not be confirmed Sunday.

Retz was remembered as a colorful character by his neighbors, who said he boasted of being the stuntman atop the horse in the TV series, "Zorro," and of once physically assaulting Charles Manson, whom he caught trespassing on his property.

By others, he was recalled alternatively as an affable partyer [sic] and an ill-tempered recluse. Retz apparently spent his last night alive just as he would have liked, said his attorney, John J. Altenburg.

The Gattusos had taken Retz to a dance at the Bavarian Haus club in North Hollywood, Altenburg said, where he often enjoyed spending time with fellow German expatriates.

"He was an 84-year-old man full of vim and vigor," Altenburg said. "He loved to dance and sing. He would sing, totally offbeat, but at the top of his lungs."

Retz was decorated during the war by the German army, Altenburg said. After the war he came to the U.S., where he was in several businesses, including import-export, retail food and discount airline charters.

Retz also had a passion for soccer and horses, and made many friends in the movie business over the years, said Bill Murdock, who knew Retz for 20 years. Retz sometimes rented his ranch--a 64-acre spread in picturesque hills overlooking the San Fernando Valley--to filmmakers.

Nikki Wright, who grew up near Retz's ranch and still lives nearby, said the man had charm.

"We care a lot about him," she said, as she watched firefighters pull Retz's body from the car.

Altenburg conceded that Retz was protective of his property, as indicated by several lawsuits stemming from dog bites, he said.

Thompson, who is Wright's mother, said that Retz told her several times about his role in the "Zorro" series. "Whenever you see Zorro on a horse, it's me," Thompson quoted Retz as saying.

He also told her of the time he attacked Charles Manson, ordering Manson and his followers to get off his land.

Retz's son, Phil, an architect in the Seattle area, didn't want to talk about his father's colorful past.

"He was a good, decent man," he said. "I don't think there's need to say much more."


(Staff writer Allison Cohen contributed to this report.)


One interesting thing about this article is that although there is mention of Charles Manson and his associates being on Retz's land there is no indication that the land was adjacent to Spahn's Movie Ranch. Indeed, there is no mention in the article about Spahn's Ranch at all. Readers would not even know that Retz's death basically occurred at the site of the ranch.


I had a brief encounter with Frank Retz in 1989. At the time I was in Los Angeles for the August 9, 1989 premiere of the Nikolas Schreck film Charles Manson Superstar. On that afternoon of the twentieth anniversary of the Tate-LaBianca murders I, along with several of the people involved in the production of Superstar (and the publication of the book The Manson File) went to the site of Spahn's Ranch and were met there by a Lederhosen and cowboy hat-clad Retz. I stayed pretty much in the background; most of Retz's conversation was with Nikolas Schreck and Nick Bougas. Retz still talked about turning the area into some sort of resort for Germans. He also claimed that he and his soccer team had "kicked Charlie Manson's ass," a contention that was met with smiles and rolled eyes all around. (Three years before our encounter Retz told an interviewer, "I told those druggie Manson people to get out, and when they saw me they would run away because I told them I would beat them up to death.'')



Nikolas Schreck, Frank Retz, and Nick Bougas at the site of Spahn's Movie Ranch in 1989


Left to right: Zeena LaVey, Stanton LaVey (behind Zeena), me, Nick Bougas, Nikolas Schreck, Frank Retz


After Retz's death his secluded residence was ransacked by souvenir hunters. Some of the items so looted eventually found their way to me. 


Business cards and a studio portrait looted from Retz's home after his death


The collapsed bridge was replaced by one that was built to code. The new bridge is the one that's there today.


Building materials on site for the replacement bridge at the former Spahn Ranch


Franks Retz's dream of turning the Spahn Ranch area into a resort aimed at German Americans never came to fruition. Today the area to the south and west of the ranch site is privately owned and maintained and is sometimes rented out for private functions such as weddings. The actual site of Spahn's Ranch itself is a part of the Santa Susana Pass State Historic Park. It will never be developed into anything other than what it naturally becomes.






84 comments:

AustinAnn74 said...

I am so happy that ranch won't be developed, ever!

ziggyosterberg said...


Manson played soccer? I'm pretty sure that I misread that.

Andrea Pirlo looks a lot like Manson, if anyone wants to see what a soccer playing Charlie would look like.

MHN said...

I love that picture of disco legends The Village People standing around at the ranch.

christopher butche said...

Retz giving Lutesinger a lift around July 30 1969 is of enormous interest. Before he took her back to her parents they went to the police (LASO). The series of interviews (lasting until around August 10) helped to establish intelligence for the Spahn ranch raid of August 16.

The knock-on effect of the law of unforeseen consequences was that LASO had arrested Lutesinger's boyfriend for the Hinman murder and would eventually catch up with her to ask her more about the two girls who accompanied him to Hinman's. Which would end up with them interviewing Susan Atkins, who in turn had something to add about some other unsolved murders.

SusanB said...

What a character Mr Retz was. I enjoyed reading about him. "The Retz Ranch"....I hope he finally found it , somewhere.

SusanB said...

I second that ☺

Robert Hendrickson said...

As I say in "Death to Pigs" "Frank Retz" is a KEY player in the "Calamity of Events" that took place in connection with the "The Gang that, save for TEX, couldn't even shoot straight."

Yet, the Prosecutor convinced a JURY that IF one Charles Manson had been Secretary of WAR under Lyndon Johnson, America would have devised a masterful "plan" to eradicate those God-damn Commies, once and for ALL.

Thank God we, at least, have HISTORY to remind us of the TRUTH.

Frank Retz was a Captain in the GERMAN Army during WWII. So that NOW means Frank was a "hero" to the JEWS, just like "Shindler" as the new and improved "King of the Jews" Steven Speilberg has so cleverly informed us all.

BUT to Charles Manson RETZ was a fuck'in NAZI trying to kick Charlie's Family out of their HOME.

So YOU'all who think Manson was a racist - YOU are absolutely CORRECT - HE had a thing AGAINST those NAZI bastards who filmmakers like Mel Brooks have turned into nothing more than images of bumbling comedians.

Try reading the actual Court of Appeals account of the "Shorty Shea" murder case.

AND for those who proclaim that "Helter Skelter" was NOT invented by Bugliosi - YOU are RIGHT - he simply made a COPY of Little Paul's grand illusion and cherpped IT to the JURY just like a trained "parrot."

Cause that's what WE are taught in SCHOOL - to be "trained parrots."

ziggyosterberg said...


MHN said...

I love that picture of disco legends The Village People standing around at the ranch.

---------------------

I laughed my F'n ass off at that one. :-)

MHN said...

But Robert - is there such a thing as a fact? If there is, would you not expect people to parrot it like sheep? Challenging everything only works if there are, in fact, no facts.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Ahhh MICHAEL: "SHEEP" - whether it is more noble to be a SHEEP or whether it is more rewarding to be a FREE thinker ?

On a recent POST a commentor mentioned that HE/SHE knew of "sheep" getting all THEIR "Shit" tangled up in all the wool on their asses.

ME - I'd rather be a FREE thinker, BUT then, who am I to think un-kindly of those who choose to eat their own shit.

We're ALL just trying to 'dream" our way out of the 'supreme' Shit Pile.

christopher butche said...

Mr Hendrickson rather than write..On a recent POST a commentor mentioned that HE/SHE knew of "sheep" getting all THEIR "Shit" tangled up in all the wool on their asses.

You can refer to it as 'sheep dags'.

MHN said...

Robert, half of me agrees with you. But half of me thinks that's dangerously close to the mindset that decides to 'identify' as being African American even though you aren't, or 'identifying as' a woman even though you were born male (notice how it's never the other way around?). If we all escape the supreme shit-pile by choosing our own truth, sooner or later people end up shooting-up community colleges, or starting wars against ideologies in the jungles of the east, or breaking into people's homes and stabbing them to death for no reason... or worshiping an executed Jewish radical as part of the everlasting cosmos-creating Godhead - there's no end to the potential craziness :)

Just think what that would do to share prices....

Max Frost said...

I remember El Nino...and I remember that newspaper article...and I was one of the looters...

George, did you ever end up with one of the handbags Retz had custom made with the German resort name and logo?

I did but it has since slipped through the cracks.

Matt said...

In that pic of you, Bougas and the Shrecks, Retz looks like he's auditioning for The Village People.

MHN said...

Matt, they say great minds think alike, but usually with a few hours delay ;)

Robert Hendrickson said...

Yeah right Chris - and have eveyone lable ME as an "Anti - Sheep Dagger."

AND to you guys starting to get IT - Isn't it kind'a crazy that TEX and Bruce end up in prison for life because THEY believed in ALL the Apockoliptic religious boffongue and THEN they become REAL Jesus freaks, preaching the same old stuff in prison. IF I was on the parole board, I would have too take, at least, a dozen tabs of acid just to get on the same playing field. Hey maybe that's what those rosary beads the Pope was passing out were for. They were really some kind of "super" marbles.

Matt said...

MHN said...
Matt, they say great minds think alike, but usually with a few hours delay ;)


My bad, MHN. I was mobile and didn't read the previous comments. For crissakes his mamma dressed him funny that day!



Panamint Patty said...

Interesting that both Zeena and Stanton are in a photo together, they are supposed to have been estranged a long time ago.

MHN said...

Matt - 'For crissakes his mamma dressed him funny that day!'

Don't get all Norman Bates on us, Matt!

chatsworth charlie said...

Max Frost said... "...and I was one of the looters..."

This, from a Man with a Nun Avatar.

Robert Hendrickson said...

hate to bother anyone with this question, BUT the matter of "senseless" KILLING and "sensible" KILLING has always "bothered" ME.

Now, with the matter of the recent "Collage Campus Massacre" and ALL the pundants calling it "senseless" I would like to know HOW it is determined whether ANY murder is "senseless" or "sensible."

It kind'a makes sense to ME that ANY killing would, at least, make sense to the KILLER. LIKE, is there some kind of litmus test for making a KILLING "sensible" VS "senseless" ? Like, was the Vietnam WAR a "sensible" death trip, or was it "senseless" ?

AND if a KILLING is really "senseless" - isn't the KILLER actually INSANE (saneless).

I mean, I don't know - does this make ANY sense to you "sensible" people out there ?


christopher butche said...

Mr Hendrickson, without the US involvement in Vietnam, followed by the subsequent withdrawal, Cambodia would probably not have had the chance to have its own Year Zero Helter Skelter.

MHN said...

Well, Robert, I would guess each of us has a different answer to that one. My own answer, it makes sense to kill people in self defence. It makes sense to kill people who rape or kill children. It makes sense to kill people who use violence and murder to enforce on others the observance of their own religious beliefs. (And the fact that they think there is a higher "sense" behind their own violence? I frankly don't give a damn. I don't see the point of being a free thinker if it involves endless intellectual equivocation about making war against those who would deny any and every freedom to others that you claim for yourself.)

Senseless killing? For example, being so morally up your own ass that you think the best way to demonstrate your superiority to a society that makes war is to break into people's homes and murder them.

So far, so conventional. But I also think we are too soft: I dislike these lethal injections and electric chairs and "surgical strikes". They're too clinical. I think we should give the condemned the chance to go out with some glory. I think we need to bring back the Colosseum. I'd happily pay to sit in a huge stadium and watch Jihadists and child-killers going at each other with swords and knives, the winners to be faced with assorted wild animals.

And our enemies should be dragged through our cities in cages, in triumphal processions.

And our weaselly Presidents, called Emperor. And live up to that title.

You want sense, Robert? I don't know what that is. But let's at least make death spectacular again.

equinox12314 said...

MHN said... 'I dislike these lethal injections and electric chairs and "surgical strikes". They're too clinical. I think we should give the condemned the chance to go out with some glory.'

MHN,

The late US comedian, George Carlin, has some novel suggestions for methods of execution. I suspect his politics are different from yours, but the sketch 'George Carlin Death Penalty' on YouTube is nevertheless funny. I first saw it when a guy on the TOTLB site posted it.

https://youtu.be/qDO6HV6xTmI


BTW The photo on Retz' business card gives him a passing resemblance to Jimmy Durante:)

MHN said...

Robert: "AND if a KILLING is really "senseless" - isn't the KILLER actually INSANE (saneless)."

Now there's an interesting question... One which makes me wonder if there has ever been a literally 'senseless' killing, ever. Surely even the insane individual has a rationale for what they do. They all make 'sense' to someone...

But if individuals choose to live in society rather than in a vacuum, then surely they have to compromise their own sense for the sense that everyone else agrees to abide by, for all its faults and inconsistencies. Even if they are free thinkers.

christopher butche said...

Mr Hendrickson, remember that insane is a legal definition. There is also the legality of killing by lawful execution and unlawful killing by murder.

I'm not sure that an individual has the choice as to whether or not to abide by the laws of the society they find themselves in.

Aleister Crowley's famous dictum 'Do what thou wilt' is often mis-represented as encouraging a no-holds barred way for the individual to behave as they please in all circumstances, but in reality it also carried the caveat that one should not do anything that would interfere with another's right to do as they wilt. ie. very few individuals want to be murdered or sexually abused as children, therefore you cannot do either.

It's a bit like driving a car, we all know that the theory is that your driving should never ever impede another driver. There should never be an occasion when another driver has to slam on the brakes because of your own actions. Follow the rules and everyone gets to make the journey without incident and we all get to die in our beds of old age.

Max Frost said...

Patty,

That picture is from like 1887. You know, like from the days when Lucas McCain was teaching Mark how to lasoo a Girl Scout.

CWC,

Yes but it's a windup nun with a very angry look on her face who spits fire when she waddles.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Thanks Guys. That actually makes some sense. Of course, you can see where this all leads to.

Did the Prosecutor, at least, expain to HIS specially selected jurors that Helter Skelter was a "senseless" crime OR a "sensible" crime. I mean, we now have "hate" crimes and also "love" crimes - which helps us decide whether to fry the bastards OR whether to ......... AND how about a poliical-like pole to pre-decide whether we should even be concerned when a cop shoots a black man in the back OR a great movie director rapes a 13 year old girl. AND hey, maybe a pole could have spared the Pope all that embarrassment when HIS employees got caught in those "love AND hate" crimes.

I don't know, just thinking.


Mr. Humphrat said...

George Stimson said: "He also claimed that he and his soccer team had "kicked Charlie Manson's ass," a contention that was met with smiles and rolled eyes all around."

George Stimson (should have) said: "when that lederhosen badass told us how he kicked Manson's butt we all hurried to give him high-fives and toast him with our Pabst Blue Ribbons."

MHN said...

I agree Robert. It's minefield, and mines don't plant themselves, some creep puts them there. I resent the term "hate crime". Crimes and punishments should be clearly defined in law, not subject to political screening. If I kill a man I kill a man. The state shouldn't have the right to increase or decrease my punishment based on our respective races, religious beliefs, or any of that shit. Once you go there you open a can of worms that can never be closed. If a gay man beats up an imam who says gays should be thrown from rooftops, which one has committed the "hate" crime?

starship said...

MHN. The above comment is on point.

starship said...

I actually don't believe in the whole victims rights movement. Now I know that shall get me into a lot of trouble, but all victims lost their ultimate right...to live. And so it is up to the Justice System, which is supposed to be blind to both victim and perp, to punish (or if you listen to Pope Francis, punish and rehabilitate)the perpetrator of the crime.

Once the system does that, the perp should serve out his or her sentence fully, based on all the provisions for the law. So, if someone is sentenced to 20 years to life, and he or she has served his or her time productively, with good behavior which seemingly indicates that he or she most likely will not repeat the crime, then he or she should be granted release.

But then victims families show up and get to influence the system and politics being what they are, often end up keeping the perp in prison.

And that is just unfair. It's moving to goal posts after the game has started.

Matt said...

MHN said...

If I kill a man I kill a man. The state shouldn't have the right to increase or decrease my punishment based on our respective races, religious beliefs, or any of that shit.


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that classifying an act as a hate crime doesn't necessarily increase the penalty, it just means that now it is a federal crime rather than state.


MHN said...

OK Matt, sorry - I know it can increase the sentence here in the UK. Glad to hear that's not the case in the US. What are the consequences of a crime being classed as federal? Ignorant Brit, sorry.

Matt said...

Well, it looks like even if you are conviced at the state level of murder, etc. you can THEN be tried on federal hate crimes charges. So, the penalty is increased due to the additional conviction.

The reasoning:

Penalty-enhancement hate crime laws are traditionally justified on the grounds that, in Chief Justice Rehnquist's words, "this conduct is thought to inflict greater individual and societal harm.... bias-motivated crimes are more likely to provoke retaliatory crimes, inflict distinct emotional harms on their victims, and incite community unrest."





Robert Hendrickson said...

From "Death to Pigs"

"At trial, a Frank Retz "testified" that HE had purchased a portion of the Spahn Ranch in 1967 or 1968 and was negotiating with George Spahn for the remainder of the ranch...... and then proceeded to order the Manson Family off HIS property."

NOW, I can see where RETZ would want to protect HIS property from a bunch of dirty, stinking hippie TRESPASSERS, but can any of us NOT, at least, "sense" Charles Manson's rage over a fuck'in NAZI imigrating to America to ORDER him off HIS property ?

YES - RETZ was just being "sensible" AND in turn maybe Charlie got TOO "sensitive" over the "sensible."

But YOU know what's really freaky: Look at RETZ's truck, with HIM in it - in the GULLY. I't the same GULLY - where on the banks - "Shorty,s" body was dumped.

MY GOD, don't you just love it, when it ALL makes "sense."

Max Frost said...

The whole idea of a hate crime is just a bunch of fascist draconian nonsense.

A crime is a crime is a crime. It matters not what is or isn't in someone's head. Anyone who believes in the idea of classifying something as a hate crime should pack up and move to North Korea or some other...place.

Robert Hendrickson said...

BEAUDERS: A couple of days ago, we got TWO separate DVD orders from Littleton, CO home of (Columbine Massacre) I sensed and made a strong comment to TobyAnn that something was in the air.
Today it was revealed that Chris Mercer lived in TARZANA. It is so spooky that I cannot even imagine how you folks are dealing with this in you area. When the TATE / LaBianca massacre occured, we were all so consumed with the Vietnam WAR, it really didn't affect anyone except the movie folks close to her.

MAX: And it's NOT going to "change" any day soon. Cause it has been going downhill ever since the Vietnam WAR. Back then, there was already talk of "chain linked" camps - where THINKERS like you and me would be caged. So the ONLY real question now is: Which side of the fence will YOU be housed on?

ziggyosterberg said...


Frank Retz's Petition for US Naturalization :


http://i.imgur.com/8e0tuWK.jpg


It says that he was from Homolitz, Yugoslavia (which is now part of Serbia). It also says that he was "Stateless" and the country that he was last a citizen of was Yugoslavia.

He sounds more like an Eastern European refugee than a "decorated" "World War II German Army captain" to me.

MHN said...

Hey Ziggy - interesting discovery. Reminds me of the way the media are full of pictures of beautiful Syrian refugee children right now. Whereas in fact according to the UN, 75% of those streaming into Europe are young fit adult single men, and the majority of them are not fleeing Syria. In any other era we would recognise it for what it was. But the word 'invasion' is apparently racist now.

christopher butche said...

MHN it could also be argued that young Syrian men are merely avoiding the draft. Destabilising the Syrian army can be seen as an example of the success of UK/USA policy of ending Assad's regime.

MHN said...

Trouble is, at this rate Assad's regime will not be the only thing ending soon.

grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

" but can any of us NOT, at least, "sense" Charles Manson's rage over a fuck'in NAZI imigrating to America to ORDER him off HIS property ?"


Well, given Charlie said this about Hitler and by extension the Nazis, I don't think it was because of any nazism that he might have been pissed off;

'I think Hitler was a concerned citizen who tried to put some order into the world. People didn't see the reality of what he was saying. They still don't. He was a good man. They told so many lies about that guy. Can you imagine how powerful he must have been to have all that love stand up for him like that ? Look at all the people standing up, raising their hands for him.
When I was a kid, the way they portrayed that guy, man, I always thought he was a tyrant,[that] he was just a terrible person. But in the perspective [of Hitler's reality], you've got to be a terrible person. In other words, you can't be a "good" dictator. Benevolence only goes so far. If you're gonna survive.....you've got to be whatever it takes to survive. You ain't got no choice.'

I wonder if he felt like that about Frank too......

ziggyosterberg said...


@MHN - "For want of a battle the kingdom was lost."

Apparently Europe matters less than deposing middle eastern leaders and gas pipelines.

I guess the only thing that we can be certain of is that European Liberalism will soon be playing chess with the Grim Reaper.


Robert Hendrickson said...

ZIGGY: Great find, BUT quess what: After the WAR, when the NAZI's emigrated here, they created NEW "histories" for themselves. Or if they had scientific skills, IE: rocket tecknology knowledge, the US "government" CREATED new histories for them. Santa Barbara, in the surrounding Hills, just 45 miles up North from the Spahn Ranch, became the nesting grounds for those Nazi's who were smart enough to BRING money (gold) with them.

Didn't you know the infamous Von Braun (rocket sicence) guy was a NAZI.

MICHAEL: I too SEE the video of the Syrian refuges and wondor why the young men are fleeing their country instead of fighting the "bad" guys. AND they are NOT just comeing from Sriya.

GRIM Reaper: I'm sure you realize YOUR Hitler comment is going to strike a nerve in many folks and I understand where you are coming from. AND the fact is most men usually begin their "reign of power" with, at least, good intentions. Must I also mention: JFK, LBJ, CM and even our new messiah - ALL "became" druckards at the open bar that served them endless power !
I'm NOT sticking up for Manson, BUT I did READ the actual Appealate Court Record. BUT then WE all know, the even the Courts make mistakes.

AND of course, WE were the bartenders and barmaids who provided THEM with ALL the power THEY could quzzle down. So WHO is the real Villian here ?

The power addict OR the folks that FEED the power hungry ?

equinox12314 said...

MHN said...

"...In any other era we would recognise it for what it was. "

Yes, an attempt at gaining from the European countries' benefits systems. Why do they travel over umpteen safe, peaceful European countries to make their way to the UK?

Max Frost said...

Robert,

You are absolutely correct. There are indeed FEMA camps (concentration camps) all over the United States...just waiting for the day they are needed to dispose of all the dissenters and people who are still capable of thinking for themselves.

Of course, most Anericans are unaware of this fact because most Americans foolishly believe we have free press and a real media here...rather than the cold reality that all mainstream media is, admittedly, totally controlled by the CIA (Operation Mockingbird) and it is 100% fascist (corporatist) propaganda.

Most Americans have no clue whatsoever who is actually controlling their government and how it's controlled. The foolish democrats actually believe Obama is somehow a good guy and a leader. The foolish Republicans actually believe Bush is somehow a good guy and a leader. They have yet to realize that the two are merely puppets on the same string - and they are one in the same.

stoner van houten said...

great post !!!!

Robert Hendrickson said...

GRIMREAPER: I really wanted to address YOUR post to a greater extent.

FIRST: You provide NO scource for the supposed Manson quote and I question that because Manson does NOT speak with such clearity. Sounds like someone re-wrote HIM.

SECOND: It is actually TRUE that Hitler actually brought Germany out of failure into a new and improved nation.

Of course, LBJ was actually preparing the VIETMAN WAR while HE was also finishing-up HIS great Civil Rights Act, wherein the same BLACK men would be given jobs in the rice paddies of Vietnam. What a guy !!

BUT that's how politics WORK - Good begets Bad !

NOW, here's a perfect example of good old American FRAUD. There's NEW movie out called 99 hours abput the housing collapse and "forecloseure" crisis. The movie portray's the banks as "owning" the subject properties and removing poor homeowners from their HOMES.

The FRAUD is: The "banks" didn't own the properties, the United States government did / does hold the paper to homes. In effect, and in reality, OUR new messiah was actually the one WHO gave the OK to KICK Mr. Black man, Latino family and poor White mans' out of their homes.

The US government, at Obama's demand, as the "underwriter" (Fannie Mae and Freedie Mac) ORDERED the "forcloseure" of the subject properties. ONLY the "undewriter" has the legal authority to take the property.

During the Great Depression of 1929, the US President ORDERED that NO homes be re-poed ! During the Great Depression of 2008, the President ordered: that THEY (the poor) be evicted into the street.

Every GREAT Nation MUST have a "scapegoat." Just like IT MUST have a leader! Otherwise how is anyone going FIND their way into Hell ?

grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

"GRIM Reaper: I'm sure you realize YOUR Hitler comment is going to strike a nerve in many folks and I understand where you are coming from. AND the fact is most men usually begin their "reign of power" with, at least, good intentions"


It wasn't my Hitler comment, it was Charles Manson's, found in George's book. I can see where Charlie was coming from on that and even from Adolf's point of view about what needed to be done but I disagree profoundly that he had good intentions from the start. I don't think he took the gig and then found that he could do things that maybe he hadn't thought of before. He seems to me to have been very systematic about who to get rid of and which lands to take from before he was Chancellor.
I feel the opposite about Charlie, that he reacted as certain things came his way rather than he was plotting the downfall of Mankind from Terminal Island. An improviser, if you will.
But that's neither here nor there. I threw in the Manson comment on Hitler because it struck me as ironic that, in your quote, he would be pissed off at the actions of someone that was being "identified" as a Nazi.

grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

"It is actually TRUE that Hitler actually brought Germany out of failure into a new and improved nation"


Since around 1984 I've pointed out to people that not only did Hitler bring economic prosperity back to Germany from 1933 on {in the process, re~arming and we all know where that led}, but that the allies at the end of "the Great War" {it was only named WW1 after the '39~'45 conflict which then became WW2} held some of the responsibility for the German attitude rising to the fore with such fervour as Hitler and friends were able to find by the way they brought Germany financially and economically to it's knees with, and in the aftermath of the treaty of Versailles.
So our man Adolf was great for Germany. But great for Germany meant impending crisis for far more people than the beneficiaries of the Hitler economics.

Robert Hendrickson said..

"I question that because Manson does NOT speak with such clearity. Sounds like someone re-wrote HIM"


Sometimes he has been known to. Much of the time, I agree with you. I've seen him interviewed before where he's as clear as the British Prime minister. Clearer in fact !
I remember when there was all the kerfuffle surrounding Nuel Emmons book and the criticism that it was Emmons' words, not Charlie's. But I could never see what the fuss was about. In the version I have, he makes it clear that he was writing from his memory and relaying what he was told in a kind of straightforward precis to make it understandable to the common punter. Around that time, I could see why, because some of Charlie's statements in interviews were hard to fathom, to put it mildly.
That said, I've often found Manson to be wonderfully articulate.

Robert Hendrickson said...

GRIMREAPER: You remind me of a guy I saw/heard in the US Army.

We were all at boot camp and at an outdoor location, sitting on bleachers.
We were going into the "gas chamber" , but first the instructor wanted to make sure EVERYONE knew what to do. I was at the bottom of the bleachers and a voice from up top saks a very intelligent question in a perfect "Englishman's" accent.

We were in TEXAS, known for it's distinct ya'll accents, so I turned around to look-up and SEE where this obviously "educated" voice was coming from.

YOU bet, it was a BLACK man and I obviously LEARNED a valuable lesson.

equinox12314 said...

Grim traveller said...

"...I've seen him interviewed before where he's as clear as the British Prime minister. "

@Grimtraveller, I thought he was particularly articulate in the Penny Daniels interview. I think overall, we have to remember Charlie has mental health issues, and has spent considerable time in solitary which must impact on his thought processes.

christopher butche said...

Equinox, only his body is in solitary. His mind is free.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Did I miss something in the post or was Retz angry about your group trespassing on that occasion? Or what was the situation? Did he find you on his property? Was he friendly from the start? He looks friendly in the pics.

SusanB said...

Heres my two cents. Perhaps Manson saw in Retz ( who he may have believed a former Nazi ) a possible kindred spirit who mightve reiterated his own anti Jew/anti black etc ideals. Perhaps Manson thought of Retz as a potential aide to his so called race war and a sympathiser to his other ideals. Perhaps Manson had ideas of incorporating Retz's land with Spahn , therefore increasing his "patch" in the desert so to speak. I think Manson wouldve been somewhat excited to introduce himself to Retz. Being ordered off Retz's land by the man himself mustve felt like a huge psychological slap in the face. I can almost imagine Manson seething as he traipsed back to Spahn.
Like I said, just my two cents....

SusanB said...

I forgot to say that it was Grim traveller that reminded me of Charlies admiration of Hitler. ☺

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

Well, even if he was from Serbia it's possible Retz served with the Germans- they did have Waffen-SS divisions for foreign conscripts. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Volunteer_Corps_%28World_War_II%29

Yugoslavia was broken up into either puppet nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_National_Salvation being one) or some territories were annexed totally by the Reich. I dunno though if this would really have influenced Charlie's feelings. I might be wrong, but I've always gotten the impression his views on politics and history were always pretty vague pre-Trial, that although his racial-socialist 'ideology' existed vaguely before then it wasn't really very concrete and as deeply tied into National Socialist (i.e. ATWA) ideas as it later became.

On a side-note, it still blows my mind to see regular contributions by George made here nowadays. A few weeks back I was digging through an old blog entry and it contained I think one of the first mentions of Mr. S... people visited his blog and were making shocked comments about this disreputable fellow who'd attached himself to Sandy, and his Strange & Terrible political ideas. Now we respect & like him. :)

Btw George I know I am late to the 'party' (& I realise that's a terrible term to use), but I was shocked to hear about the fires & what happened to your property. I realise you're probably loathe to accept charity but if you have a PayPal, I'd be happy to drop a little donation your way if you need one- something like that can be devestating. You should still have my email if you want to take the offer, if not I'm sure Matt can provide it to you. Take care.

Robert Hendrickson said...

DAMN Hump: What a great question. I'm not shy. Like did someone give the old Huck-tune and Cig Heil. Cause that would have broken the ice.

For a time AFTER the Family and George left the Ranch, Retz would come down from HIS perch on the Hill and YELL, when someone would just wonder onto the old movie set site. HE apparently thought HE was master of the entire domain. Kind'a like back home, when the Crouts thought they owned ALL of Europe.

Damn that KARMA - now the Muslims are going to take over Germany.

Hey, did they really pass a LAW to keep ISIS soldiers from mingling with the refugees to get into other countries. I wonder if Obama is going to allow THEM into America.

equinox12314 said...

christopher butche said...
Equinox, only his body is in solitary. His mind is free.

@christopher, I know that Charlie says something along these lines when people raise the topic of his having been in prison for so long. However, I still believe that the time which he has spent in solitary has been detrimental to his mental and physical health. It is to his credit that he has survived everything that has been thrown at him in the US prison system (including acid).

I was thinking about Charlie's media interviews last night, and I would say my favourite is the one with Ron Reagan Jnr. He was very pleasant and respectful to Charlie, and that is what he got back.

ziggyosterberg said...


@equinox - The one that I find most interesting is the Bill Murphy interview. I just wish there was a better copy of the full interview somewhere on the net. I've seen better quality bits of it used in other things, but never found a full copy of it that didn't have an annoying buzzing sound throughout.

A couple of the worst ones that I've seen are the interview with the androgynous Israeli where he jumps up and threatens to "smack you in your fuckin' mouth and make you understand what I'm saying to you" and the one where he's clearly drugged up and talking really slow in the prison chapel.

ziggyosterberg said...



"Oops! Looks like Frank's nibbling on the wires. Please try again in a few minutes."

ziggyosterberg said...


Vermouth Brlliantine said

"I might be wrong, but I've always gotten the impression his views on politics and history were always pretty vague pre-Trial, that although his racial-socialist 'ideology' existed vaguely before then it wasn't really very concrete and as deeply tied into National Socialist (i.e. ATWA) ideas as it later became."

I think that you might be right.

Vincent Bugliosi often repeated and wrote in his book, "Helter Skelter", the erroneous Brooks Poston quote that "Manson said that Hitler was a tuned in guy that leveled the karma of the jews"

What Brooks Poston actually said, in his interview with the Inyo County Sheriff, was "he said, Hilter was a tuned in guy like himself. And that he saw the truth and he leveled the karma of a lot of people. Karma is what he calls, uh, sin or something like that. I guess he equates it with sin." (from Cielo Drive.com ) :

http://www.cielodrive.com/updates/paul-crockett-10-3-69-interview-part-one/

Offhand, I can think of at least a few Jewish or Jewish by birth Manson family members - Barbara Rosenberg, Joan Wildebush and Catherine "Gypsy" Share. Irwin "Partee" Friedman's son, John, was one of the kids picked up in the raid on Spahn Ranch. "Partee", a jew by birth, was a lifelong friend of Charlie's and the man in the mask on the "Manson Family Reunion" episode of Geraldo.

I find it odd that a man who dislikes jews would surround himself or associate with jews. Perhaps it was/is a symptom of his schizophrenia or after his arrest and trial he became more resentful/bitter towards them.

George Stimson said...

"Did I miss something in the post or was Retz angry about your group trespassing on that occasion? Or what was the situation? Did he find you on his property? Was he friendly from the start? He looks friendly in the pics."

Mr Humphrat, arrangements had been made for us to meet him there. He was expecting us.

D. LaCalandra said...

In the Brooks Poston Inyo County interview, he stated that Charles Manson said that Hitler was a "tuned in guy who leveled the karma of a lot of people". No mention of jews specifically. But if you ask Steven Kay and Bugliosi, he said "the jews". Catherine Share wasn't only a jew, but also was described as a "true blue" communist and we all know how Hitler felt about them.

grimtraveller said...

SusanB said...

"reminded me of Charlies admiration of Hitler"


Vincent Bugliosi isn't one of my bugbears {I laugh, even as I type that !} but I think one particular dis~service he did to Charles Manson was in drawing parallels between him and Hitler.
The thing with our Adolf is that since 1945 it has been almost impossible to even talk about him without getting peoples' backs up because it seems that he is such an icon of evil that if one says anything 'good' or 'positive' about him, one is taken as some kind of supporter or justifyer and that's unfortunate, to say the least. It also often has meant that if anyone is compared or paralleled with him, that that person being compared must be some paragon of evil.
Comparisons are often just that, comparisons, and more or less can be read into them.
I don't think "admiration" is the always the same as "wanting to be like" or "thinking that what they did was right" because it occurs to me that you could think that someone did the right thing but not admire them at all.
And in terms of parallels, there are some striking ones between Charles Manson and Jesus and Charles Manson and John Lennon.

equinox12314 said...

"I think overall, we have to remember Charlie has mental health issues"


I understand that he was diagnosed in the 50s, early 60s and around 1968 as having some kind of ambulatory schizophrenia but a number of people commenting on this have said that it doesn't carry much weight as a serious mental disorder.
In more recent times {like this last decade}, has there been evidence of Charles Manson being diagnosed with particular mental health disorders and what have those disorders been ? In his last parole hearing, his lawyer {who stated that he'd not even met him !} said he'd not been diagnosed with any severe mental disorders.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Good: "Well, it's a club that brings Germans over, young guys over..."

Robert: "Well, did you know Frank? Was he trying to bug you about buying the ranch a long time ago?"

Brenda: "Well, the thing was, he was trying to swindle George out of the land and we weren't goin' for it. We let George know what was going on between him and whoever was doing it."

Maybe Frank was just a warm and fuzzy guy following a REAL leader in land deals - Bob Hope - who swindled Crash Corrigan out of HIS western town movie set property, down the road in Simi Valley.

REMEMBER what Jesus said: "Know ye the truth and it will drive you crazy."

equinox12314 said...

Grim traveller said...

"...ambulatory schizophrenia but a number of people commenting on this have said that it doesn't carry much weight as a serious mental disorder."

@Grimtraveller From what I can gather, 'ambulatory' seems to be an American term. It appears to be used for those who are non-hospitalised. However, having personally known several schizophrenics, this is a condition which is controlled by serious psychiatric medication, and in the UK at least, the prescription has to be approved by hospital psychiatrists, not General Practitioners. Trust me, it's not safe to leave these sufferers without medication, if only for their own sake!!

I would have thought that the length of solitary confinement which Charlie has been subjected to in the past would have been unlawful under the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution which states that "cruel and unusual punishments [shall not be] inflicted." Charlie was put into a lengthy spell of solitary just a couple of years ago. At his age?? That would be detrimental to anyone's mental health.

In May 2011, this blog posted interviews with Charlie's friend, AC Fisher Aldag. She spoke about his other problems as follows: "He has four or five different learning disabilities: ADHD, dyslexia, and I'm reasonably sure he had fetal alcohol syndrome. So he had difficulties learning. Lynette and Sandra were actually the first people to teach him how to read. He is NOT mentally retarded, but when he was young, he was labeled as such." Keeping anyone with these difficulties in solitary confinement for any length of time is to my mind 'cruel and unnatural'.


equinox12314 said...

@ziggyosterberg

Yes, the one with Bill Scanlon Murphy is enlightening, but as you say, it is difficult to make out what's being said. Would I be right in saying that Scanlon Murphy was a session musician with the Beach Boys, and therefore close to Dennis Wilson?

The androgynous Israeli was an academic, yes? If we're talking about the same interview, she was lucky there was a pane of glass between them. I loved the interview where Charlie says that he has to go for a s**t, but before leaving, informs the female interviewer that she's a bit overweight!! LOL.

I thought I was the only one that was getting the "Frank nibbling on the wires" message. It's getting more and more difficult to make out what's in the 'prove you're not a robot' pictures, or maybe it's just old age!!

equinox12314 said...

@George Stimson

George, thanks for continuing to provide interesting articles to the blog, particularly in the difficult circumstances in which you and Sandy have found yourselves. So much of what you provide on the site hasn't been seen before.

Robert Hendrickson said...

"There are a startling number of similarities between Manson and Hitler.

Manson like Hitler, had some other aspect to his personaslity, some frightening and tangible power and quality about him that no one as yet has been able to discover."

NOTE: The Prosecutor ONLY needs to mention the last names of these two characters and YOU know who he is talking about. That's POWER - especially in a world with billions of nobody's.

Also NOTE: the word "quality" attributed to Manson and Hitler.

I always seem to be dissing on LBJ and JFK, BUT I also have an arsenal of "qualities" attributable to them.

BUT they, like HITLER, also made a critical mistake - THEY tried to make "yellow" skin communists THEIR scapegoat and HITLER tried to make the "Jews" HIS.

BTW: there is a great film called "Apt Pupil" for those who want to see how NAZI's like Retz hid in America from the Americans.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Thanks George

christopher butche said...

Mr Hendrickson, did you recommend Apt Pupil because it was produced by Don Murphy?

chatsworth charlie said...

OO-EE-OO

Panamint Patty said...

Chats! Xoxo

grimtraveller said...

equinox12314 said...

"In May 2011, this blog posted interviews with Charlie's friend, AC Fisher Aldag"


It was a couple of months back when was looking through past threads that I came across this and became curious about Charlie's mental history. I remember thinking that AC Fisher Aldag used to come up with some really interesting posts although I found it hard to believe that he didn't really learn to read until 1968.
Having mental health issues within my own family and among friends over the years, I guess I'm curious as to where his is purported to be at.

MHN said...

Don Murphy produced Apt Pupil? I remember watching that and laughing myself unconscious. I didn't know Don did comedies too - good for him! McKellen really hammed it up like the screaming old luvvie he is. That casting wouldn't work in a serious film, but for a light comedy like this it was a real hoot. Comedy gold.

D. LaCalandra said...

One of the most idiotic things I've seen Bugliosi do is compare Manson to Hitler on the grounds both loved Children and Animals. Be careful, loving children and animals could get you compared to Hitler if you ever get in trouble with the law I guess.

MHN said...

Bugliosi also betrayed a complete misunderstanding of Nietzsche, as though that great thinker was little more than an intellectual mouthpiece of Nazism.

Nietzsche's sister (along with her husband) was a racist, Jew-hating proto-Nazi. Nietzsche found her position risible and contemptible. As he said in a letter to her, explaining why he could no longer feel affection for her since his work was starting to be associated with her vile racism, "These accursed anti-Semite deformities shall not sully my ideal!!"

Of course he was critical of Judaism as a belief system, and of Christianity too. He saw them as a deformation of the history of human thought and found the elevation of weakness, guilt, and subservience to be a profoundly dangerous shift in human thought from the ideals of the ancient world. But that's not racism, Nietzsche was no Nazi, and Bugliosi was dumb to paint him in those colors just so he could use Nietzsche as another stick with which to beat Manson.

wayward said...

Ambulatory Schizophrenia aka Borderline Personality Disorder
as noted in Kaplan and Saddock's 'Synopsis of Psychiatry' 7th ed.

Robert Hendrickson said...

CHRIS: I actually saw Apt Pupil when it was released many, many years before I even knew DON. And I can see where some would even see it as a comedy. When I first saw Shindler's List, I cringed in my seat. At least the part where the "bad" NAZI is told by Shindler that REAL power is when YOU can KILL someone, but spare their life instead seemed sincere.

For an actor to portray and a director to be able to "DO" the NAZI thing WITHOUT it appearing like a comedy is nothing short of a miracle. The same is true of an actor trying to do Charles Manson and a director trying to re-create the Manson Family story.

BOTH are totally out of the realm of believe-ability in OUR world.

LIKE how do you "DO" the POPE and HIS gang of cock-suckers AND make it believable to those WHO "believe" HE is GOD.

AND how do you "DO" a reflective film about a mentally disadvantaged youth who turns out to be the most mentally "powerful" man in the world, with just a little help from an otherwise nobody Prosecutor.

NOW, Mel Brooks discovered the KEY - just go with the flow, as in "Spring Time For Hitler." BUT you have to understand - IF MEL was doing a film about MUSLIM terrorists invading Europe - HE would likely open with hundreds of turbined camels charging through the tunnel to the UK. Screaming wildly along the way, but stopping cold to bow and pray every 100 feet. Then a cut-away to the Queen in her chambers racing to gather-up her prized possession, stopping ONLY to look in the mirror and straighten her hagger wig.

UNfortunately, TRUE life can be a bitch to re-create, so I give Apt Pupil an A for doing what NO other filmmaker dared even try.

Mr. Humphrat said...

I Apt Pupil must have been the novella included with Stand By Me, Shawshank Redemption and another story in a book of King's I was reading. I got a few pages
into Apt Pupil and the Nazi microwaves a cat and I couldn't read any more.

Jenn said...

I'm confused about where this bridge was. Was it where the, I think, steel bridge is now? The one that often has a closed gate across it?

christopher butche said...

Jenn, there is a youtube video by Stoner van Houten where he visits the site of the crash.