Monday, November 30, 2015

Col. Paul Tate was at Manson's Inyo arraignment!

Ever had one of those "holy crap" moments when looking at something you've seen many times before because something jumps out at you that you never noticed previously? Well, I recently did! Which brings me to these two photos.

The first was discovered while searching through raw news footage on YouTube (courtesy Backporch Tapes). It's taken from Manson's arraignment in Inyo Co. on December 3, 1969. After checking with people who knew him, we believe that it is Paul Tate against the wall wearing sunglasses (he appears at 0:12):


The second photo for comparison is of Tate at Sharon's funeral:


In Restless Souls, Alisa Statman wrote that Tate was there to see Manson at his LA arraignment on December 9 and locked eyes with the man that may have masterminded his daughter's murder. Some have disputed this as fabrication on Statman's part.

Was Statman mistaken about the location? Was Tate at both? We'll probably never know for sure, but with this photo, (for me, at least) , the top photo proves that Paul Tate was at Manson's Barker Ranch Raid arraignment - before the public was even aware that a Charles Manson existed!








60 comments:

Farflung said...

If the Barker Raid had to do with the destruction of BLM equipment, then it must have been the slowest of news days to attract such an audience, complete with a film crew.

I would assume (assuming here) that a fierce leak about their potential involvement at the Tate's must have occurred.

I served on a jury where the guy stole many cars (5?), and not a single person was ever in the gallery. So what did all those people know about Manson, and when did they know it?

Manson Family Archives said...

It could also mean that Bugliosi totally fabricated yet another cinematic Tate vs. Charlie showdown. Statman also claimed Sandra Good jumped on PJ's back, which is nonsense.

ziggyosterberg said...


There's a better shot of that guy in THIS video at 0:15.

equinox12314 said...

Matt,

I think you are right on the money with this one. If you compare the photos of the man at the arraignment with known photos of Col Tate, both men have the same jaw line. Keep in mind that as a member of US military intelligence, he would be used to disguising himself, and by that I don't mean merely putting on a pair of sunglasses! If you look at the first photo, he appears to have dyed his hair darker and perhaps added on (or grown) longer sideburns. I recall the photo of PJ walking arm in arm with Sharon, and the guy against the wall in the first photo looks like Col Tate.

ziggyosterberg said...


He appears to be chewing gum as well. Was Col Tate known to be a gum chewer? ;)

equinox12314 said...


@ziggyosterberg

ziggy, if it were indeed Col Tate trying to disguise himself subtly, then chewing gum may have been part of the act.

Matt said...

Farflung, the press in attendance was aware that Manson would be arrested for the TLB murders but had agreed to not break the story for another week. Imagine that, a civil relationship between the police and the media. It was surely a different time in history, wasn't it?


ziggyosterberg said...


@equinox12314 - It's more likely Manson's CIA contact, there to insure that "Operation: Divert The Public's Attention Away From The My Lai Massacre" goes according to plan.


equinox12314 said...

ziggyosterberg said...

@equinox12314 - It's more likely Manson's CIA contact, there to insure that "Operation: Divert The Public's Attention Away From The My Lai Massacre" goes according to plan.

LMAO. Nice one ziggy - you are on good form!! I am sure Mr H will be interested!

Suze said...

>>> ziggyosterberg said...
"Operation: Divert The Public's Attention Away From The My Lai Massacre" goes according to plan <<<

I actually had a college professor make that argument. He was very convincing. The establishment finally had its bogeyman and made things like Kent State "necessary".

George Stimson said...

The sideburns seen in Independence could have been grown after Sharon's funeral as part of Tate's "going underground" in his own search for her killer.

AustinAnn74 said...

Col Tate was in intelligence, so he had ways of finding info out that normal citizens wouldn't have access to. He very well could of been tipped off. That looked like him, except for the longer sideburns. I wonder if he went to Watson's trial? I just read Watson's trial transcript, btw, and I cannot get over how much he lied. Also, the judge was completely biased in favor of Watson and kept sustaining every, single thing out of Bugliosi & Stephen Kay's mouth. It was horrible. If Col Tate was in that audience, how he restrained himself is beyond me.

equinox12314 said...

Austin Ann74 said...

"...Also, the judge was completely biased in favor of Watson..."

Maybe it was because Tex pitched up at court all dressed up in a blazer and slacks looking like a respectable young guy. LMAO. At least Charlie was honest about how he presented himself in the courtroom.

I too have great admiration for both Col and Doris Tate on how they managed to restrain themselves when encountering Watson, because I wouldn't have been able to do that.

cielodrivecom said...

Everyone knew who Charlie Manson was on December 3rd. Just about every paper in the country reported on his connection to the Tate-LaBianca murders on December 2nd. That is why the media is at this hearing in mass. Many local high school students were also in attendance to witness the proceedings.

Another note, on December 3, 1969, Paul Tate was interviewed at his home in Palos Verdes by Charles Hillinger of the Los Angeles Times.

ziggyosterberg said...


@cielodrivecom - One of the unfortunate side effects of Matt's sex addiction is that he has very little time for research.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Comparing photos is sure funzy-wonzy, but SUZE don't you think it would be "helpful" if you explained to your fellow bloggers what a "college professor" is ?

Like the GREAT minds of JFK and LBJ KNEW that sending thousands of U.S. soldiers "thousands" of miles away to "stem the tide" of "communism" was necessary for the preservation of the U.S., BUT the Communist "take-over" of Cuba in the early 1960s (just 90 miles off America's shores was NOT).

That's why GOD invented Beer, Wine and very "cool" Drugs - so EVERYTHING would finally make SENSE,

Mr. Humphrat said...

Manson Family Archives: it was Squeaky Fromme who is claimed to have jumped on PJ's back on pg 133 toward the bottom in Restless Souls. It says she screamed: "You should know better than anyone that we were just at war! Who are you judging? Follow your own reflection, the guilt you find is yours!"
I wonder if Deb or someone has ever searched LA Times from that time to look for mention of it. That would have had to have made it into a paper. I couldn't find it in the Van Nuys paper on Ancestry.com.

Mr. Humphrat said...

It also claims on the next page that another day he had a physical confrontation in the men's room with Steve Grogan and Bruce Davis and was stopped by deputies.

Matt said...

Cielo, I'm not sure what difference that makes? It's obvious that the press knew and were all around. And just because the article of the PJ interview was in the paper on the 3rd, it doesn't mean that

A) it was a face to face interview

B) that it happened on that day, could have gotten the PJ quote 2 days earlier.

Cielodrive.com said...

I was commenting on these statments...

"the top photo proves that Paul Tate was at Manson's Barker Ranch Raid arraignment - before the public was even aware that a Charles Manson existed!"

"Matt said...
Farflung, the press in attendance was aware that Manson would be arrested for the TLB murders but had agreed to not break the story for another week. Imagine that, a civil relationship between the police and the media. It was surely a different time in history, wasn't it?"

My point was, the story had broken already. Manson's connection to the murders was known to the public.

Regarding the LA Times interview with Paul Tate. I wasn't suggesting it was published on the 3rd. It was published on the 4th and it states that the Paul Tate was "interviewed at his Palos Verdes Peninsula home on Wednesday[3rd].."







Robert Hendrickson said...

RE: 2nd photo - POLANSKI to the Col "WOW you look just like a CIA agent in those Foster Grant sunglasses." Col to POLANSKI: " Quiet kid, I'm undercover now - AND you look just like Austin Powers."

DebS said...

The only thing I could find about Paul Tate being approached by any Family members involves Sandra Good and it was verbal. That's not to say other Family members did not approach Tate, other incidents could have happened and not been reported in the newspaper or I simply could not find it. This is what I found-

Redland Daily Facts July 29, 1970


TATE IGNORES MEMBER OF MANSON FAMILY


Los Angeles(UPI)- Paul Tate, the father of actress Sharon Tate, ignored a member of Charlie Manson's "Family" Tuesday when she spoke entreatingly to him.

Tate had just walked out of the courtroom where Manson and three others were being tried for the murder of his daughter and stepped onto an elevator when cult member Sandra Good ran up and got it.

They stood side by side while the elevator descended. On the ground floor Miss Good spoke to Tate and followed him to a telephone where he began dialing, ignoring her.

She turned away.

"I tried to console him," she said. "But he wouldn't listen. I really feel for him. I know what he's going through. I wonder why he comes here every day."

Jenn said...

ColScott: there is no copyright listed for Preston or Watkins as songwriters, nor can I find any copyrighted recordings by Desert Sun, et al.

Farflung said...

Thanks for the feedback Matt and Cielo.

For some reason I thought the Inyo crimes were in a sort of parallel vacuum, where they weren't aware of the significance of inmate Manson. Clearly I have been disabused of that notion.

Robert Hendrickson said...

NEWS Flash: Liongate and the makers of "Gods of Egypt" just publicly apologised for casting the "Black" Egyptians in THEIR new multimillion dollar movie, with WHITE skinned gringos.

BUT how the hell could THEY have KNOWN about BLACK men (muslims) in Egypt, "without" reading that crazy Hendrickson's COMMENTS on www.mansonblog.com OR his websites ?

AND what do WE expect - the President of America - doesn't EVEN know whether HE is BLACK or WHITE.

The judical genius Vincent Bugliosi didn't even KNOW the difference between a BLACK Muslim and a black "gang-banger."

BUT Louie B. Mayer KNEW the difference - one will make you money and the other will lose you money !!!!! Except NOW - the tables have apparently turned upside down.

ColScott said...

OMG Robert just took credit for Egyptian's having black blood. Mind gawn

Jenn said...

ColScott wrote: "Poston- and they would own the copyright under current laws only if they registered it correctly at the time."

Exactly. It appears that they never copyrighted their material.

grimtraveller said...

AustinAnn74 said...

I wonder if he went to Watson's trial? I just read Watson's trial transcript, btw, and I cannot get over how much he lied


Doesn't he just ? He comes across as really dopey in that transcript. He wasn't even a skillful liar and much of the time, he made little, if any sense. But his 1971 "pre~formance" did him no good.
It's an interesting thing though, the Family during the initial trial sought to show the world that they weren't under Charlie's influence and ended up showing pretty much the opposite. While Tex sought to show just how much he was under Charlie's influence and if that transcript is anything to go by, fails just as dismally.

Also, the judge was completely biased in favor of Watson and kept sustaining every, single thing out of Bugliosi & Stephen Kay's mouth


I noticed that he seemed biased at times, but I was looking out for it. I was really surprised at some of the objections he sustained. Sometimes, VB could be prone to some exaggeration and when he spoke of the judge being the biggest obstacle he'd had in securing a conviction, I kind of thought it was one of those. But having read the transcript, maybe it's not such an exaggeration !

grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

BUT how the hell could THEY have KNOWN about BLACK men (muslims) in Egypt, "without" reading that crazy Hendrickson's COMMENTS on www.mansonblog.com ?


When I first saw it being pointed out that Sandra Good had said, back in 1970 that “Islam is rising” my first reaction, my mental reflex action was that she was really talking about Black Muslims. Because as a Black person, I’ve long been used to names of religions being used interchangeably with races. Both Black and White people do it. So for example, ‘Christian’ {and included in that sometimes would be ‘Catholic’} will almost always {when speaking politically or historically} mean ‘White’ as will ‘Babylon.’ ‘Rasta’ pretty much always means ‘Black’ and ‘Hindu’ nearly always means ‘Asians’ {in the UK, people from India, Pakistan, Bangla Desh, Sri Lanka and such are referred to as Asians}. ‘Islam’ or ‘Muslims’ usually meant ‘Black’ or ‘Arab’ and in the last 30 or so years has stretched to include Asians. ‘Sikh’ always meant Asians. When people speak of ‘Judeo~Christian’ they almost exclusively mean ‘White.’
You get used to people speaking in this way when it’s part of the air you’ve breathed for over half a century.
Few people in reality connected ‘The Nation of Islam’ with actual, mainstream Islam as say, practiced by the Arabs or some of the peoples of the Middle east/North Africa. Even the Black Muslims didn’t always. When Malcolm X broke away from the Nation of Islam and went to Mecca and saw Muslims of all colours, he underwent a change arguably more profound than the one that caused him to join the NOI in the first place. After that he really considered himself a Muslim. His autobiography is fascinating.
I suspected that when Sandra Good spoke about Islam, being an American, she really was talking about Black Muslims and that was my main reason for searching out “Death to pigs.” I paid particular attention to the section where Sandra speaks and as I suspected, when she speaks about Islam rising and the kind of justice that will be meted out by them, she really is referring to Black Muslims and more to the point, Black Muslims that are American. She’s not seeing ahead to a situation in which Muslims from, for example Saudi Arabia or Pakistan rise up. And when she speaks of Christians or what she refers to as ‘the Christian thought’ she is referring to White America and those establishment ways that the family and other countercultural groups had rejected. She herself stressed that the church and the State had always been the same, never separated.
Because the Black Muslims took on certain aspects of a religion alien to the status quo of America and because so much establishment rhetoric was couched in Christian terminology as opposed to real demonstrable, loving, giving Christian living, the interchangeable terms ‘Islam’ and ‘Christian’ for ‘Black’ and ‘White’ are kind of easy for me to see, but understandably easy to miss for those not used to seeing things that way.
On pages 472 & 473 of Robert's book, it comes over clearly and the most striking thing about it for me is that what Sandy says fits in with HS. Not them igniting it, the rest of it. She speaks of a uniquely American scenario.

ziggyosterberg said...


@Jenn - If you're using the copyright.gov website, the reason nothing is showing up might be that copyright records prior to 1978 aren't searchable online. You have to go to Washington and search them or pay the office to search & send them to you. I only realized this recently myself. lol.


@ColScott- Robert gets pissed off at me when I talk about this, but if you look at the copyrighting of "Manson" in 1981, followed by the assignment (not by the Author) of various copyrights a few days later to someone else (I wonder who?), things do start to get a little murky.

There's an article HERE with lots of info on the "Manson" movie. It also says that it wasn't copyrighted until 1981, but that may not be the case. Merrick may have copyrighted it in 1972 or 1973.

I'm just impressed that Robert was able to get ahold of the original studio tapes of Manson's Gold Star recording sessions and now owns them, simply because he never gave them back to Squeaky. That takes some serious balls.


Mr. Humphrat said...

Thanks Deb for the research on Col Tate's interactions with the family.
The article of Sandra trying to talk to him reminds me of the video of
the talk show when she talked to Patty, so I can picture her doing that.
You'd have to think if something wacky like Squeaky jumping on Col Tate
happened in the court it would be reported in every paper-still I like
to believe it to be true as it's too good a story.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Good Golly Ms Molly, and I thought someone was finally going to figure out that I might be a CIA operative. I mean, somebody has to admit that the whole Manson Family / Mi Lai Massacre gig was pretty cleverly executed.

BUT clandestine "copyright" manuvers ? NO sex and NO deaths - who's going to buy that ? Wait a minute, didn't Mr. "B" say Merrick was the FIRST of the copyright re-taliation murders ? AND didn't someone here mention that Phil Kaufman was in some sort of "physical" trouble ? AND what about Bugliosi - isn't the wicked witch now DEAD !!

At least the Grim-reaper gets it.

Love ya "Col" but the dark sunglasses ONLY keep you from SEEING the truth.

Robert Hendrickson said...

I don't really know how to respond properly to "help" COL. BUT that's MY "hang-up." YOUR hang-up is YOU don't want people to know just how "KIND and helpful" you can be. I can say: I have "agreement / releases" and I NEVER said I "own" Manson Family music, but that I have the RIGHT to "use" it. Of course I would like to make some extra money OFF the movies - it's un-American to THINK otherwise.

ZIGGY seems to THINK that I should have RETURNED the 1968 "Family Jams" tapes to Squeaky, but had I done that the FBI would have confiscated them and THEY would have ended up in a LAPD vault just like the Watson tapes - only to be enjoyed by Nazi's in a back-room smoking dope and jerking each other OFF.

AND then there's the "bootleggers" who have driven ME crazy for years. To the point, I finally said Fuck-IT
When someone up-loads one of my films to YouTube and my DVD sales go down, I have to do a whole number just to get it removed from YT. All the time I spend doing that, I could have been doing something constructive.

So several years ago when the GREAT depression HIT and I was afraid to even leave the country to attend the Colonge Conference screening of my films in Germany, MY manner of thinking began to change and I dedicated the next 7 years to research and understanding of just HOW such a disaster could happen in the land of the FREE. This, of course, led me to research EVERYTHING. AND then came the CineFamily theater showings in Hollywood where I gained an entirely NEW positive perspective on people and the world.

BUT that's what LIFE is all about - searching for something positive among all the negative.
And so, NOW I'm kind'a scared to give-up any part of the MANSON "thing." It's become a part of ME and to a certain extent I feel responsible to preserve and protect that part of HISTORY (Vietnam & the Manson Story) which is MY generation. Otherwise, what's the Fuck'in point. Common sense says; to just sell ALL the stuff off and enjoy LIFE a little bit MORE. BUT isn't common sense just another word for BORING.

chatsworth charlie said...

"AND then there's the "bootleggers" who have driven ME crazy for years. To the point, I finally said Fuck-IT
When someone up-loads one of my films to YouTube and my DVD sales go down, I have to do a whole number just to get it removed from YT. All the time I spend doing that, I could have been doing something constructive."

Mr. H, there are also people who download off Torrents, buy Bootlegs and then like the product so much that they seek out official/upgraded material and fork over the dough.
If it weren't for the Torrent sites, I wouldn't have even known your name.
Your Manson 73 is not exactly easily bought/advertised like others have mentioned
here. (since it isn't on amazon/ebay, etc....)

That is how I became aware of your material and I am sure I am not alone.
And like I said, I ended up buying the material off you anyway.....

chatsworth charlie said...

"BUT isn't common sense just another word for BORING."

There is also another common saying...."Too Late"
Mr. H.Others like myself have mentioned over & over we are grateful for what you have provided footage wise (and those musical moments captured on tape) but that also leaves us wanting for more and if possible BETTER (IE:upgraded sound/visual, packaging, etc..)
I am speaking for myself here but I bet others feel the same and speak out on this topic out of FRUSTRATION because you occasionally tease by mentioning your "Mini-Series" and other comments on what you could do or what you wanted to do with your existing stock and then go on and say "Fuck IT"
That just leads to more frustration and more replies that you are getting when it comes to this topic.
Just remember, if we didn't think you had anything of value and or that it sucked would we all want it????
(that should tell you something)

P.S. My "Too Late" quip simply means that if you no longer around then who the hell will carry the ball?

DebS said...

In other news unrelated to the topic....... Ringo Starr's copy of The White Album goes on the auction block tomorrow. There's a wee bit in a couple of places in the story about Manson. Ringo's copy of the album is #0000001 which was a revelation to most because it was thought that John had the first one.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/ringo-starr-auctions-off-the-first-copy-of-the-beatles-white-album-the-story-of-a-revolutionary-a6756411.html

DebS said...

Chatsworth Charlie just sent me a link to the auction which is apparently live now for online bidding. The bids are already up to $60,000.00!!!

http://www.julienslive.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/163/lot/71120/?url=/view-auctions/catalog/id/163/?page%3D1&sort=4&dir=1

I checked the number on my White Album its A0459523, not exactly a low number......

St Circumstance said...

Lol. I have an old copy. Where do you Check the number?

DebS said...

It's on the front lower left, Saint!

DebS said...

Make that on the right corner. Think I'll have another beer now!!!!

Farflung said...

From the Hinman murder (late July) to the Spahn Raid (mid Aug), then to the most remote (even today, late 2015) of locations at the oddly named Barker "ranch", this group managed to attract the attention of LE. How many run ins with the law has the average person had in the last year, or decade?

Sad to see where a cop's vehicles are stolen (dune buggies at Spahn) and, where some BLM equipment is damaged, the result is swift with immediate arrests. Where a person is murdered, not (it appears) as quick. Oh well.

St Circumstance said...

SWBO 101 is all I see when I open double album on inside of left jacket? No number on bottom left of cover...

Cielodrive.com said...

Saint, sounds like yours isn't early enough to be numbered. Does yours have embossed lettering?

ziggyosterberg said...


That other documentary titled 'Manson' " - the one where Linda Kasabian is interviewed and they re-enact events - was recently added to Netflix in 14 different regions.

Another one called 'Manson's Missing Victims' was added to Netflix in October and is streaming in 15 different regions.

I take it that this is all due to Netflix buying the streaming rights to "Manson Family Vacation".

If anybody knows anyone who owns any Manson documentaries, you might want to let them know that now is a good time to sell the streaming rights to Netflix.

Or, to quote chatsworth charlie, it might soon be "Too Late".

Manson Family Archives said...

I think law enforcement had their eye on the Family especially close after the Crowe shooting and I'm convinced many in law enforcement knew the killers of the TLB Murders came from Sphan almost immediately after the killings.

My new theory is that Manson knew or at least suspected the cops were standing off him because they wanted to leave him open for an attack so that they can turn what they knew all along was a mundane drug dispute, but they wanted to cover it up with a racial motive and he basically could not get any help whatsoever. Then Beausoleil killed Hinman and tried to cover it up with a racial motive, thinking because he was white, he might get a free pass (because I believe the cops were in LA were covering up drug crimes with racial motives on behalf of the mob and their own dislike for blacks). But he was wrong. No lawyer could help him.

So the idea was to redirect that war to the house of what they thought were two rogue but rich dealers. The people who get away and don't get the Panthers set loose on them. This was to cause fear and paranoia in the mafia, crooked cops, attorneys and drug world of Hollywood. PIG was left more as a tool for an attorney to use to link to Hinman and Watson to "cause confusion" (helter skelter) tried to pin it on the three Canadians. Either way, the cops would have to act fast and somebody would feel the heat to move to get Bobby out or risk a war and covers blows.

Helter Skelter was The Italian Mafia trying to fight against the blacks from rising in the drug underworld and the cops were helping them. Helter Skelter would erupt when the black drug syndicates had enough.

THIS is what I believe now. When Charlie said "You taught them", it's because they did. Look at that case with Superspade and all that nonsense with this crazy murders and people blaming cults and LSD. That was Rome mama.

St Circumstance said...

No lol. Oh well just another copy

mrgroove said...

Saint. SWBO 101 is the catalog number of the U.S. white album.

The first 3 million copies in the US were numbered sequentially on the front cover. The subsequent repressings were not. Ringo's #1 is British. There were mulitple #1's and each Beatle was given a number 1 (all UK) so the story goes. And it was also rumored that Capitol, who distributed Apple Records for the Beatles in the US, pressed multiple # 1's for their top executives.

Austin Ann. Regarding Tex's testimony on the witness stand at his trial. Someone should review and list and address each and every piece of bullshit that comes out of his mouth. Unfortunately, that might be a full time job.

St Circumstance said...

Thanks!

AustinAnn74 said...

Mr. Groove, I am doing just that, but it won't be finished until next year. It's a very long list.

grimtraveller said...

The first part is fairly truthful/consistent with known stories or facts. Then his testimony goes into full time overdrive lie mode when it comes to the murders and beyond, where virtually everything is bullshit. And embarrassing manure at that.

mrgroove said...

AustinAnn. It might be easier and take much less time to compile a list of what Tex said on the stand that might not be bullshit.

Manson Family Archives said...

Polanski said The Family was mentioned as suspects early in the investigation, almost immediately. I'm convinced a lot of people knew from the start and the Spahn raid was a big show done to save face.

DebS said...

Ringo's White Album went for $790,000!

http://www.julienslive.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/163/lot/71120/?url=/view-auctions/catalog/id/163/?page%3D1&sort=4&dir=1

Farflung said...

I don't get it. 790k for a vinyl format owned by the drummer. MP3 versions are all superior and represent the finest of fidelity. So how does such a premium get attached to such an item? Would the same hold true if the premier recording was on a stereo-pak (remember those pioneers?) or 8 track? No one will admit they ever owned an 8 track, or a Ford Pinto.

DebS said...

Farf, I'm not even sure if that price includes the buyers premium! It could have been closer to $1 mil when all was said and done. What would you give for, say, Ringo's copy of Helter Skelter, assuming he had one?

I had a quadraphonic stereo with an 8 track player once upon a time. And I've saved my very first "portable" phone. It must weigh 10 pounds and is as big as a bread box. It's a Motorola "bag" phone!

mrgroove said...

790K was with the premium added. The reason that white album sold for that price was because a) it belonged to a Beatle (only 4 people in the universe could claim that, with some early members cast off not included); b) it was an numbered 1 on the cover (and there were maybe a dozen of those in existence; c) it was as pristine as one may find a 1968 pressed album; d) there are a lot of collectors of rare rock an roll memorabilia and some have very deep pockets and; e) supply and demand.

I never owned an 8 track or a Pinto. I had friends with both and I have no regrets.

grimtraveller said...

Manson Family Archives said...
Polanski said The Family was mentioned as suspects early in the investigation, almost immediately


They weren't exactly mentioned as suspects. Two detectives from LASO approached a couple of LAPD detectives and told them of the similarities between the Cielo and Hinman killings and said that their suspect was connected with these 'hippies' that lived at the ranch that the suspect had given as his address and more than the suspect may have been involved. This was before the LaBiancas had been discovered.



I'm convinced a lot of people knew from the start and the Spahn raid was a big show done to save face


Can you explain that last sentence ? How does the Spahn raid save anyone's face, particularly given that the cops had to let them go because they had an invalid warrant ?

Farflung said...

I don't get it. 790k for a vinyl format owned by the drummer

Whether he was the worst drummer of all time or a drum machine in disguise, fact is, he was the drummer with the Beatles. That's why. If one of Charles Manson's guitars went up for auction, believe me, it would go for a heck of a lot more than one of mine !

MP3 versions are all superior and represent the finest of fidelity

Aside from the fact that that is a hugely debatable point {CD, WAV, ALAC and FLAC all batter MP3 into the ground and don't shave off parts of the music to make for a smaller file}, it rather misses the point. In 1968 you had vinyl records, reel to reel tape and the newly emerging cassette tape. But albums came out as vinyl records. Everything about them was geared to the medium. The studio technology revolved around getting the best sound you could that could be reproduced on a record player. Bass properties benefitted from compressors and limiters that meant that when an LP was played, heavy bass content wouldn't cause the needle to jump off the vinyl. Album art was geared towards a 12 inch square jacket. And despite the improvements that have been made since then, vinyl records still sound amazing to those that grew up with them and have also become accustomed to CD, MP3 and other formats.
That White album is valuable to someone precisely because it's not a clinically, clean MP3 that takes away much of the joy and ritual of holding a sleeve in your hand, reading the notes and admiring the jacket art.

So how does such a premium get attached to such an item?

We're hopelessly human.

Would the same hold true if the premier recording was on a stereo-pak (remember those pioneers?) or 8 track ?

Yeah ! If that was the dominant format of 1968.
Fortunately, it wasn't. I always thought 8 tracks were daft, even back in the mid 70s. I was a record and cassette child !

Farflung said...

Groove and Grim,

Nice perspectives of your audio experiences and viewpoints on value. Supply and demand indeed.

I viewed a car auction where a Ferrari sold for 15 million bucks. I thought a custom car made of rhodium would cost less and set a record as the World's lightest vehicle at the same time. But that same intangible missed me yet again.

I can say I don't miss the static pops of vinyl or the hiss of cassettes. Some things are truly gooder.

Kevin Marx said...

Grim:

The problem with bass and the needle is more to do with keeping the bass in mono when you mix the track. If the bass is in stereo you will get phasing issues and thats what causes the needle to jump.

You're totally right about vinyl it has a warmth and depth which no digital format has yet been able to truly capture. Digital has its obvious huge advantages in terms of size, delivery, storage etc but at the end of the day all digital music files are 1's and 0's and this means they will inevitably sound as you put it "clinical".

The other side of the digital vs vinyl debate is piracy - no-one, or at least very few people, walked into a record shop and stuffed a few albums under their jacket and walked out. However, I bet there is probably not a single person, reading this blog, who hasn't at some stage, downloaded a music file or been "given" a downloaded file from a friend. It's just too easy and because there is no physical product nobody feels like they're "stealing".

Manson Family Archives said...

The raid on the ranch was a show. I believe they were watching The Family the entire time and sending intelligence to a much larger agency and they move with that raid to cover it up that they could have prevented those murders. If they were standing off Manson in hopes that he would attack blacks or blacks would attack him so they could cover-up a mundane drug burn with a racial motive, they could help to come down on both.

Polanski (in regards to Hinman, too):

"Bob Helder was well aware of this, however. He told me, very soon after we first met, of a possible lead involving a bunch of hippies living in the Chatsworth area under a commune leader".

Helder was on the Tate case, which means he met Polanski much sooner than the Hinman connection was made (supposedly) and that is evident in his wording.

Interesting enough, Helder was working with Paul Tate on his book. So maybe there is truth to his seeing bikers.

I've come to the conclusion once and for all that Bugliosi's book almost pure bunk.