Monday, May 9, 2016

If Leslie Van Houten is Paroled, What Effect Could That Have on The Other TLB Killers?


In April parole was approved for Leslie Van Houten. The decision will now undergo administrative review by the Board of Parole Hearings. If upheld it goes to Gov. Jerry Brown, who has the final word on whether the now-66-year-old Van Houten is released. But what possible effect could this have on the rest of the imprisoned killers - Patricia Krenwinkel, Charles Watson, Bobby Beausoleil, Bruce Davis and even Charles Manson?

One school of thought is that while Leslie Van Houten  wasn't convicted of Sharon Tate’s murder she was part of a collective trial (Tate/LaBianca). Because she was part of a collective trial the ramifications of Van Houten getting a recommendation for parole could have a snowball effect of every victim and next of kin from the collective TLB trials. Why? Because apparently there's a law that opens the doors to all co-defendants. What is sure to happen is that Krenwinkel, Watson and even Manson can now ask for advanced hearings based on "new evidence". The new evidence being that Van Houten was deemed a non-threat to society - if she's a non-threat, then the others are entitled to that as well. In essence they will all probably get a new hearing if Gov. Brown doesn't veto the recommendation of Van Houten’s parole.

We spoke with an attorney versed in California criminal law who gave a differing and multi-faceted view. He said this:
While LVH was initially tried, and convicted, in a trial of which multiple defendants were held, the "collective" crime was also part known as a conspiracy, for which there is no what goes for one, goes for all rule.  Remember, LVH's conviction was overturned, she was retried, for which a mistrial was granted, and then convicted in a third trial, for a crime that the others were not charged with.  The applicable theory of law was the Felony Murder Rule,  for which a murder occurred during the commission of another felony, that being robbery.  That was a different charge than all of the others, so this claim could be countered with that fact.  Different crimes, different defendants, different results.

While this is a novel concept, I do not see it being successful.  I am not aware of any case law directly on point, but it would not prevent someone from attempting to make the claim in a motion.  However, I do not see the courts accepting such a claim.  The remaining inmates would be better off arguing the cost of incarcerating aged inmates versus the cost of being released into society with supervised parole.  As screwed up as that is, sadly many in society would be more willing to accept that argument.

There is no clear indication of what Jerry Brown may do.  He is walking a fine line of political philosophy versus his legacy.  While he denied Bruce Davis, he did not oppose both Schoenfeld Brothers for their role in the infamous Chowchilla kidnappings.  Most Californians opposed those rulings, but he did not hesitate.  These two men, though no one died, were not, and still are not, any less dangerous than convicted members of the Manson family.  However, the third co-conspirator, Fredrick Woods, was denied parole, partly due to his minimizing his responsibility in the crimes, as well as disciplinary problems.  My point here is that even in parole, no two considerations are the same, so much as on stands alone for their crime, they stand alone for parole as well.
Which way will Governor Brown go? Will he block Van Houten's parole, or will he allow it to stand? If he stands aside and allows her to go free - the question remains - what ripple effect could it have?





93 comments:

Robert C said...

If LVH is released I don't think it will have a bearing on the others, either legally or otherwise. I'm guessing Brown will look closely at the parole board's conclusions and also the fact that **compared to the others** her involvement was least offensive. If he denies parole it will be interesting to see what his angle is.

Manson and Watson will likely literally be in for life. Krenwinkel and Beausoleil are outside shots, and Davis may get out next time around if he does a little more 'fessing to Brown's liking.

MamaPoohBear said...

I do hope LVH gets out. Manson, Watson, and Krenwinkel--let them stay in prison for the rest of their lives. Bummer Bob and Bruce Davis--eh, I could go either way on both of those idiots.

Robert Hendrickson said...

At this stage of LVH's incarceration, the primary issue concerning HER parole is supposed to be (by law) the safety and welfare of the "people" society, BUT we all know it is really a matter of whether Jerry Brown gets a good lay the night before HE makes a decision. IE: if HE can't get it UP - SHE goes down.

Matt said...

RH, I can't say that I disagree with you on this one. Brown's protection of his own legacy may weigh mightily here. I don't know if that's bad or good as far as the decision on LVH, but it certainly shouldn't be a consideration.

Suze said...

I agree, MamaPoohBear. Despite what she did being horrific, so many have done much more and served far far less time. Same for Bruce. I have compassion for Krenny but she was there both nights and her crimes are worse, despite her rehabilitation and remorse. BB will never get out of his own way. Watson and CM don't have a prayer... ever.

P.S. I want to attend a tour so badly, it just never jives with my vacations. Some day, I hope.

Farflung said...

This case has been fragmented by time (I suspect most weren't alive during the crimes, and don't recall the laws), and a dynamic tug-o-war of the laws.

I got a speeding ticket for doing 65 in a 55 zone in Nebraska. Ironically the first state to raise the limit, which led to the new laws. Should I get my money back for a fine which isn't valid now? Or did I receive a speedy trial, and equal treatment (at that time)?

There appears to be a macro dynamic in play regarding parole. The "fair" pendulum has two extremes in its swing. It's not fair that she remain in prison, OR it's not fair, that a person sentenced to death, by a jury of their peers, to ever be released.

Jerry Brown appointed Rose Bird who overturned every death penalty she reviewed, but never admonished any of the judges who must have approved the penalty which she found unjust. She was removed from office via voter outrage.

Next Gov Deukmejian tries to block the parole of Archie Fain, who was also given the death penalty, but a Marin Co judge released him via his ruling. This led to the passage of Prop 89, now known as the governor's parole review. Also lamented as "unfair".

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

If Leslie gets out, the only other who may ride her coattails would be Pat, but with 5 additional murders to her record, it would still take another decade or so.
Bobby has told his story with too many variations to be considered remorseful. Bruce could go either way still. Tex and Charlie are guaranteed filler for body-bags on their leaving day.

ColScott said...

Robert
As per your request, I checked and transcribing interviews does not give you copyright to something that is already in public domain. So your book idea, decades after you made the film, doesn't really work. Sorry pal.

ColScott said...

Listen will the headlines read "Governor Releases Manson Family Killer"? If so then she doesn't get out.

starviego said...

I say release them all. Especially Charlie. He's tan, he's rested, and he's ready.

orwhut said...

Somebody might have killed a pup fish.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/authorities-seek-men-over-damaging-death-valley-binge-010045075.html

Mr. Humphrat said...

That's the worst pic I've ever seen of BB. He's looking old like the others.

Sunshine69 said...

I honestly don't see Leslie getting paroled. You can't separate fact from fiction in this case/era as a whole. It's been so sensationalized and ingrained into people's minds in a thousand fashion's. The crimes are grotesque and inexcusable, yes, but I have a tough time believing that the TLB clan gets a fair shake or honest reviewing.

Panamint Patty said...

Orwhut, Patty saw that pupfish thing and is extremely upset over it. :(

Robert Hendrickson said...

Imagine what Bugliosi THOUGHT when HE heard Paul Wakins mention the words "Helter Skelter" - AFTER they appeared on the LB refrigerator door.

Then imagine what I THOUGHT yesterday - when I saw the words "Public Domain" written in the Col's comment - just AFTER I discovered SOMEONE has up-loaded MY MANSON films onto the Internet Archive with the label "in the PUBLIC DOMAIN." The purpose in doing that is to cause others to download and re-POST my films on other websites like YouTube, etc.

Fortunately, most folks understand that the unauthorized posting of films that others have created "harms" them - kind'a like most folks realize that KILLING people causes great harm to many others.

BUT unfortunately, there are also those who don't have the mental maturity to understand the potential effects of "criminal" activity OR even the effects of publicly claiming falsehoods, BS, etc.

We all know Hilary Clinton is the sweetest, loving, caring for others woman on earth, BUT if I was to say "she is actually a low-down piss-ant whore, just like HER Wild Bill fuck-em suck'em husband, there are actually folks who would take those "words" to heart.

Fortunately for ME, I at least KNOW now, which tree bears the poison fruit - FINALLY !!!

orwhut said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
orwhut said...

It's a sad thing, Panamint Patty.

Logan said...

Leaving vomit, underwear, beer cans & dead pupfish...that is sad.

I doubt that any of them will ever be let out...but idk, times are changing right? Sunshine I agree...TLB and manson have long since been consigned to myth. Are there any modern phenomena you guys think will get made into a myth? I was born in 1994, but I think with cell phones/the Internet it's much harder for that to happen.

Logan said...

http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm?id=187&page=cases


Sort of on that topic, I read this for the first time the other day. Thought it was really interesting. RIP Eileen McNamara!

MHN said...

That's a really interesting question, Logan. I don't know that answer. But it suggests another question that should well and truly piss off many here: if he had been a young man in our era rather than the 60s, would a modern day Manson be something like posturing opinionated gobshite Russell Brand?

Logan said...

I feel like a modern-day Manson really couldn't happen. I mean, there will always be bigots, there will always be predators, there will always be people starting and joining groups and "cults", there will always be human cruelty, suffering, and senseless murder, but I think that American culture and modern life in general has changed so much since the '60s that there really couldn't be a CM today. Kind of like there won't ever be another Sly & the Family Stone...or what have you.
I guess you could say that there will always be musicians, and there will always be horrific wars fought for dubious reasons (Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan)...but the details and mores of culture get changed irrevocably with the passage of time, especially with the omnipresence of the ONE MIND that is the internet.
That article I linked to has big flaws, (she says that the killers were "sober as judges" on the nights of the murders and re-hashes the same yadda-yadda that most lazy Manson articles do), but she brings up some interesting points. What would Manson and the girls have posted on their Instagrams and SnapChats? I think Dennis Wilson would have some embarrassing photos of everybody hanging out and smoking pot that he'd have to take offline...
I feel like the only time you could ever be made for is the time you're in. I don't think anyone can ever know anything else.

Sam Smith said...

The Lord has forgiven Tex. He should go free.

ColScott said...

Robert

Ummm did you just accuse me of uploading your film to the Internet Archive? Fucking classic. I don't even know what that is.

robin torro said...

Are you serious, or a joke?

robin torro said...

Are you serious, or a joke?

ColScott said...

Robin- poor English and double posting makes me wonder who you are asking. I just checked what the Internet Archive is and his film is not there.
On the other hand his film is on Dailymotion at http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3kf3fg
and has been for 4 months. So I truly wonder what he is doing.

ziggyosterberg said...


MHN said....

"would a modern day Manson be something like posturing opinionated gobshite Russell Brand?"

I've never understood his purpose. I know he used to host BOTS (the BBUK aftershow), and they tried to put him in movies/make him into some sort of marketable personality, and he tried to do that trick of marrying a famous chick/celebrity power coupling thing that they all do these days. His career must have fizzled out, because last I saw, he was reduced to spouting off on his YouTube account about whatever the political/social issue of the day was. It's kind of pathetic when these actors/comedians/whatevers try to attach themselves to issues in order to stay relevant and in the public eye.

Why doesn't he just piss of back to BOTS and take back his job from that dancing fool Rylan? (I realize that you probably have no idea what I'm talking about). Rylan Clark (the current host of BOTS) is what Russell Brand would look like if you gave him a spray on tan and a pompadour. They both also have those fake, ultra-white teeth, which must be a requirement for BOTS hosts.

ziggyosterberg said...


@ColScott - I didn't see it at Internet Archive either. It's also on a few other sites and I think it's been on those ones for quite a few years. I can watch it on Kodi (<--- I'm hoping that RH works that into his next spiel), because there's a few sources for streams. It's still that shitty VHS copy, though.

ColScott said...

Ziggy Man- I have a prized crisp DVD version signed by Robert, no VHS version so I resent the implication.

And it is easy- if Robert owns the copyright, the copyright holder can get things down instantly

ziggyosterberg said...


(apologies to grimtraveller for nicking his posting style...)

Logan said...

"What would Manson and the girls have posted on their Instagrams and SnapChats?"

In a way, they were kind of doing that attention whoring thing back in the day, minus the smart phones. There was always kind of a "look at me, aren't I a special snowflake" attitude that they all possesed, and rarely did a word come out of any of their mouths that wasn't stating how special they or Charlie were, and whatever else they said usually consisted of finger pointing or lecturing on how right they were and how wrong everyone else was. This was on display throughout Robert's "Manson" film. Nancy Pitman, in particular, was quite the insufferable little bitch, which is not surprising, since she was nothing more than a spoiled little brat from Malibu.

There was really no shortage of spoiled brats in the Manson crew. Add to that all the ones who passed through, including children of celebrities. I think Nancy was responsible for bringing Angela Lansbury's daughter into the group. It's still funny to think that Angela wrote a letter giving her permission for her daughter to hang out with a group led by an ex-con with a messiah complex.

ziggyosterberg said...


@ColScott - That's one saving grace for Robert in all this, the pirates aren't aware that there are any DVD quality copies of Manson out there, because Robert has been selling it in the dark basically. He's a luddite. I read on one of the other blogs that he won't sell it to customers in certain countries for fear of pirating, which is rather ridiculous.

Maybe Robert's got the copyrights in the sealed vault with the Gold Star recordings that Squeaky lent to him?



orwhut said...

I once heard that Israel wouldn't sell a jet fighter to a certain ally because they knew the ally would disassemble it, pirate the design, and put their copies on the market. Robert has my admiration for standing up to the pirates even if doing so is futile.

Panamint Patty said...

Whut, Patty agrees completely. It's his fucking movie after all...

ColScott said...

But he is NOT standing up to anything that is the problem. It is fucking Don Quixote time man. He needed to sell the film to a real distributor 20 years ago- they could have fought it better. But you cannot do that without proving you own it.

orwhut said...

Robert's got some serious tenacity. I wish him luck.

penny lane said...

Col this copyright issue seems to enrage you....dare I ask why?

Farflung said...

The spoiled brat syndrome may be a larger element than imagined.

The US was in a collective pivot after WWII, from isolated farming, to suburban manufacture.

1947 produced the first mass produced town on Long Island by Levitt.

Southern California crafted the likes of McDonald's, Taco Bell, Denny's, and Squeaky's favorite; Der Wienerschnitzel. Mass produced food to feed the masses leaving defense factories at the same time.

Now we had a generation who were idle during summer vacation, rather than assisting with the harvest. Yes, idle hands can be the devil's workshop.

The same could manifest today, sans the communes, as demonstrated by that guy in Santa Barbara who went on a shooting, and driving rampage.

Most rehab "boot camps" use keeping inmates busy and fatigued, as a means of control and pseudo-socialization.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Dear COL: Please re-read my comment "carefully." I usually combine TWO or more thoughts in one comment. It is YOUR "sleepless nights" over the words "public domain" and Buglios's with Helter Skelter that strikes ME as relevant here. PLUS - my discovery that criminal "up-loaders" usually POST my films under the "public domain" category. AND THEY usually get the "public domain" excuse OFF the internet (like dah maybe from the MansonBlog - care of the most famous movie producer in the world. Of course, YOU may NOT understand WHY God would create such "stupid" people in HIS own image, but hey, 'dah' is the NEW and IMPROVED catch word for a generation raised on sucking a priest's penis. Like maybe it's in the "cum." Maybe it's the church's "secret sauce."

AND OMG, you and YOUR clone Ziggy can't find my films on the Internet Archive (like dah maybe I had them removed)

I could write a book about the DMCA take-down procedures, BUT the most significant part is that the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals realized that the District Court made a great "error" in gifting eBay with a "safe harbor" excuse in Hendrickson vs eBay. That most ALL attorneys in America don't even KNOW this - should make the public cringe.

WHY don't I make a deal with some great big DVD distributor? So tell us MR. know-it-all - how much $$ money have YOU made OFF DVDs in dealing with DVD distributors (NOT including from your "Transformer" copyrights) YOU do own the "copyrights" to those very valuable movies - RIGHT?

YES, usually "transcriptions" of filmed interviews are NOT copyrightable, BUT if an "interview" is incorporated into a "work-made-for-hire" (Like, if Megan Kelly is an actress interviewing a 'transformer' in "Manson versus the Transformers" Steven Speilberg would likely have a valid copyright in the subject "interview." BUT then, IF Megan Kelly is interviewing Stevie for Fox News AND he lets slip that HE faked a "bad ear" to get out of the military during the Vietnam War, then Fox News can have a valid copyright in the film they shot of that interview, BUT Spielberg holds the rights to HIS words about HIS little secret. Of course, IF Megan happens to ask Steven "How do YOU feel about letting some BLACK man die for you in Vietnam," then FOX News holds the copyright to HER question. BUT "nothing" enters the "public domain," except the idea that Stevie is like dah - a coward.

Robert Hendrickson said...

AND PLEASE understand, the DMCA requires that the copyright owner spend HIS precious TIME monitoring the entire INTERNET, for felonies inflicted upon HIM. But IF a kid steels a shovel out of MY front yard, I can call the cops and THEY will come and possibly SHOOT the little varmit,

Has anyone ever heard of another LAW that protects the 'faciliator' of CRIMES ?

The TIME I have spent dealing with "infringers" and 'facillitaors' and incompetent Judicial Crooks is much more than it would have taken ME to complete MY 5 hour miniseries. SO tell me YOU still don't get, and maybe Matt or some other adult will explain it to YOU.

BUT maybe, IF I feel some folks actually deserve the TRUTH, I'll finish "The Legend of Charles Manson" ..... AFTER he dies. Of course then, maybe I will ONLY distribute copies to those on the massive mailing list that I have compiled.

starship said...

Dear Robert,

Please put me on that mailing list.

ColScott said...

Robert- again you continue to have a poor grasp of the Copyright law.
Questions
1- How are you going to finish your alleged "Legend" documentary when you said earlier you want to sell all the footage?
2- Why does it matter if Charlie is alive when it is done? Doesn't make any sense.
3- If you believe the safe harbor thing is a mistake you should probably do something about it- Google, Facebook and Youtube have been built upon this and no court has agreed with you.
4- Are you actually advocating death for shovel thieves?

In the film above the Family I intended to make once upon a time I fully quoted Watkins interview, word for word, about how they all became Charlie. You can say you "own" his words but you do not.

And you continue to not answer the question regarding your supposed copyright. Let me ask you this- what is the DATE of your copyright claim?

Robert Hendrickson said...

MY God, this why you are only a Col and NOT a General.

I can and will "tailor" the narration in the "Legend of C.M" to fit the agenda of the BUYER.

IE: IF they are Republicans they will likely want the "Vietnam War" with its CREATOR "LBJ" played-up as the racist psycho that He was. OR if they are Socialists they will likely want whatever the fuck their agenda is played-up. That's the case with ALL documentaries. Jesus, Col, did you actually THINK AL Gore was Objective in making that "We are all going to melt" documentary.

The buyer can even make his own narration with Joe Biden being the narrator ( he'll be on unemployment in less than a year and likely looking for work.)

Every word in "Manson 1973" that Paul Watkins speaks is copywritten as HE being the original creator, but HE signed over to Merrick International Pictures HIS RIGHTs, and Merrick re-assigned over to me those rights.

I don't KNOW who gives YOU legal advise, but I sure know who they aren't.

OH, Did I forget to tell YOU why the DMCA is also great for Copyright owners - because IF Youtube, Amazon, etc. receive a DMCA compliant NOTICE and they don't remove the infringing related material immediately BEFORE another "view" or DVD is sold, THEY become liable for WILLFUL copyright Infringement and mucho $$$$$$$. Did you also know, that's been my little secret for years and WHY I never appealed the "first impression" DMCA decision.

AND yes siree Col - it's a shame to have to sneak to get to the TRUTH, but that's WHY sneak'in is such cool thing to do. Of course, that's the difference between a REAL attorney and one of those college educated pretend ones.

The boy wonder said...

Your implying god exists.

The boy wonder said...

Your implying god exists.

Manson Mythos said...

I'm looking for one of the posters from the Manson doc. It's the 40x60 one where he is in chains. Also a set of lobby cards.

christopher butche said...

Don't think it counts as modern, but it is post Star Wars, how about Reverend Jim Jones as a mythological figure? On an aside he spent 20 years building up his Helter Skelter, took way more drugs, had way more sex, was way more paranoid than Manson, and had 1000s under his control. Not to mention the Peoples Temple album is better than LIE.

Oddly enough Manson is the go to brand for this sort of thing rather than Jim. Manson couldnt organise feeding and housing 30 or so people whereas Jim had them signing over their houses, pensions and paychecks in their hundreds.

Vaguely of interest is the one guy who was convicted for the murders of the congressmen and associates, and who probably bears some sort of responsibility for the 913 deaths was released way back in the early 2000s. So perhaps its time for LVH to be paroled too.

Matt, Can we have a copyright post for Col and Mr Hendrickson to thrash this out once and for all.

orwhut said...

Robert Hendrickson said...
AND yes siree Col - it's a shame to have to sneak to get to the TRUTH, but that's WHY sneak'in is such cool thing to do. Of course, that's the difference between a REAL attorney and one of those college educated pretend ones.

Just another day in Sneakyville.

Matt said...

I don't have the strength...

Robert C said...

Is it time for a new topic ?

ColScott said...

Robert



Let me ask you this- what is the DATE of your copyright claim?

Let me ask you this- what is the DATE of your copyright claim?

Let me ask you this- what is the DATE of your copyright claim?

and every lawyer went to college somewhere man

Panamint Patty said...

Lol

beauders said...

Jim Jones also got people to feed cyanide to their own children and watch them die horribly painful deaths, whereas, Manson only got his followers to murder supposed strangers.

ALIKEN said...

Seems to me he's using you & this site to promote his washed up film.... which isn't worth being called garbage if you ask me.

John Seger said...

Robert?
Just answer him.
When was the copyright date?
No riddles or vietnam war rants.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Matt said: "I don't have the strength"

AND I can't stop laughing.

Here's YOUR choise C. Butch - Either it's Copyright shit or the Col starts FUCKING orcas.

MHN said...

I don't believe this 'Manson' film even exists.

And has anyone actually met this "Robert Hendrickson" person? Is he real? Having read hundreds of his comments here I have to say I doubt it. Any real person carrying those burdens would either spontaneously combust or implode.

And where are his marbles? Another myth. Someone should make a five hour documentary mini-series about him.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Here's the REAL problem ColScott: The ANSWERS to YOUR questions are in the U.S. Copyright Office, which are readily available to ALL who wish to actually inform themselves.

YES, most ALL lawyers are college educated: Just look in the "mirror" - YOU were college taught to be a filmmaker, BUT apparently YOU were out the day the teacher talked about Copyrights and the U.S. Copyright Office. Miss just one day of college and bingo, we got another dingo.

BUT I'm NOT the babysitter for a bunch of liberals who want to grow-up some day to become conservatives. That is like training chickens to become turkeys.

AND that was the whole point of MY delving into YOUR initial mention that MY MANSON material was in the "public domain." Of course, NO intelligent person would give two hoots about what YOU would say, but there are actually many nimrods all around this planet who now take most EVERYTHING said on the internet as TRUE - especially IF it fits THEIR personal agenda of acquiring stuff - WITHOUT paying just compensation.

AND that is precisely what is causing many to POST my films on "pirate" websites AND that "harms" ME. I KNOW you don't get it - YOU think whales are the problem, I get THAT. There's even a famous saying: "A whale of a time." I think LBJ used it to describe the Vietnam War.

THUS, I'm really sorry Mr. College took YOUR hard earned money and didn't teach YOU "the RIGHT stuff." WHY don't YOU ask for YOUR money back ? OR at least attend some NIGHT school class that teaches SOMETHING about the U.S Copyright Office and its PURPOSE.

Asphalt said...

Received this period today. Looks like Debra Tate started it...

https://www.change.org/p/keep-charles-manson-cult-murderer-leslie-van-houten-from-early-prison-release

Asphalt said...

Ha! PETITION

Asphalt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Asphalt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grimtraveller said...

The boy wonder said...

Your implying god exists.

May 11, 2016 at 5:32 PM

Blogger The boy wonder said...

Your implying god exists


You're implying spelling and punctuation do not matter in the midst of a debate involving the merits {or lack thererof} of college education.
Twice.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Imagine what Bugliosi THOUGHT when HE heard Paul Wakins mention the words "Helter Skelter" - AFTER they appeared on the LB refrigerator door

Imagine what Paul Watkins thought when Charlie and Clem told him they'd killed Shorty then divide that by what he thought when he heard "Helter Skelter" was written in blood on the LaBianca fridge.
They don't teach you that kind of equation in college.


ziggyosterberg said...


(apologies to grimtraveller for nicking his posting style...)

I forgot to copyright it.
It's open season on old Grim !

christopher butche said...

I realise its not about the cost but justice, but a quick google gave a California government 2008/9 inmate cost of $47,000 per year. Because its easier to do the math call it $50,000 x say 50 years to keep it simple works out at $2.5 million.

For Leslies three trials in old money it was around $1 million for the first trial and I recall the others were $500,000 a piece.

Add in to that $2.5 million each x Tex, Bobby, Pat, Susan, Bruce, Manson. Not too mention the hundreds of parole hearings and several trials and legal appeals.

It's probably cost the Californian taxpayers over $200 million for Matt to have something to post on his blog to give away for free.

The boy wonder said...

Luckily my degree was art based so my dyslexia didn't get in the way.

ziggyosterberg said...


grimtraveller said...

"I forgot to copyright it.
It's open season on old Grim !"


Well played, good sir.

MHN said...

Never noticed grim correcting grammar or spelling before. Wonder what needled him about that particular error....

If you're going to question the existence of God, make sure your grammar is perfect folks. A great advert for the faith...

penny lane said...

LMAO..yeah MHN that stuck out like dogs balls....Personally I have never needed an imaginary friend...and struggle to understand the millions that do...fear of death perhaps?

Matt said...

I guess man has a predisposition to need to believe that death at the end of this life can't be the end - so he grasps at anything that explains away his deepest fears - and gives life deeper meaning. This (in my opinion) is why we lean towards superstition, and on the extremes... religion.

When I die I'll be as conscious as I was before I was born. Zero.

Happy Friday the 13th everyone!

ziggyosterberg said...


Grim also responded to me. He must've been in a low hanging fruit mood.

Or maybe he hit his head really, really hard?

Maybe one of you limeys should check on him?




MHN said...

Ziggy, limeys never check on each other. We just make sure we have a clean suit for the funeral if necessary, and a good eulogy prepared.

ziggyosterberg said...


I miss him already. :(

Goodbye grimtraveller
Though I never knew you at all
You had the grammar to write a thesis
While those around you scrawled

Robert Hendrickson said...

YES C. Butche, so how come ALL these Politicians we PAY good money to, don't have a CLUE ?

Seems to ME Leslie Van Houton presents the perfect example of the NEED for an intermediate institution where "very" low risk prisoners could be housed in a simulated "city" environment.

There would still be a fence around the institution, BUT very few guards and most everything a real city would have. The prisoners could even "build' their own living quarters "Tiny houses", etc.
They could learn to be plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. and maintain the new "city."

TRY and 'escape' and back YOU go to the "main line" to serve out your sentence WITHOUT early parole.

Of course, the prison system was NOT designed to save the taxpayers money, ONLY to feed the Prison Guard unions. AND it was NOT designed to re-habilitate, BUT to PUNISH.

WE can go to the moon and / or destroy the entire planet with the push of a button, BUT we STILL don't know how to deal with the mentally ill, EXCEPT the cops have finally become proficient at gunning down BLACK men and BOYs and "By-polars."

So WHO are we going to BLAME, after Manson is GONE?

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

I never much considered what a belief system had to do with death, I'm more interested in what it can do for you when you're alive.

penny lane said...

Very profound Matt :) ..and i agree but I wonder why some people need it and others dont...

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Yes Mr. Humphrat, Bobby is looking old. He's taking on the visage of a 15th century Spanish explorer. The weathered face of Cortes. There's a lesson here: Never stab a Buddhist to death in his own home.

MHN said...

Zelda, do you ever consider how long religious belief systems would last if men were eternal? I would bet every cent I ever earned that no-one, no-one would reach the age of 5000 still awaiting a Messiah, or believing that their actions are subject to the moral preferences of an entity that hovers beyond our senses. Without death this system just can't keep itself going. Mortality is the cement of every religion. Not fear of death necessarily, but the unavoidable presence of mortality. Without it we would evolve away from these narratives we're hardwired to stitch into our little lives. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I think...

penny lane said...

Nope i dont think your wrong...that sounds very right...imagine a world in which people had such insight?

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

MHN, I don't really consider these things as you've laid them out. They become abstract, and those are not concepts I do well with. In the realm we know, we have a window of 100 years or less to live our life. I like the idea that there are influences we can tap into to make our time as good as it can be, both for ourselves and for others. We play this game knowing God holds the cards and we play the game on His timetable. To aspire to have all the answers seems kind of foolish to me; my hope to understand things is quite modest. It's not my place to pick God's brain.
If someone wants to grant me a 5000-year lifespan and have me play guinea pig, I'd give it a go. I don't have the slightest clue how I'd hold up. I'd hope the writeup about me in the Newest Testament would be very positive, though.

MHN said...

Zelda, I like that answer.

Life is short, indeed. What if it absolutely IS your place to pick God's brain.

This should be on the Tour itinerary next year:

Days 1 through 40 : go to the desert, pick God's brain
Day 41 : cold beer in Lone Pine, crippling existential anguish
Day 42 : Vegas!

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Thanks MHN. One further thought: I'm not comfortable with people who speak very boldly on either side of the God equation. I find it to be arrogant and presumptive. You know, like man willfully trying to exceed his grasp.
As for the tour, I'm in. And we're going to burn the first Michigan Loader we see, too.
Defiance, brother!

MHN said...
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Mike Portillo said...
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grimtraveller said...

Well, that'll teach me to try a little tripartite transatlantic humour !

grimtraveller said...

@boy wonder ¬> My sincere apple urges {apologies}. I didn't realize you had dislexia and I wouldn't have made the jest if I had.
I am suitably and publicly chastened.

@ziggy~O ¬> You'd best copyright that beautiful eulogy if you want to be credited and paid for it's usage at my funeral !
Not that I'll be there....

Mr. Humphrat said...

That's the worst pic I've ever seen of BB. He's looking old like the others

Funny that, it's the only good one I've ever seen of him. I've never really felt that he's photogenic. Even his mugshot after arrest for the Hinman killing, though conveying despair, is kind of lame.

ziggyosterberg said...

Or maybe he hit his head really, really hard?

You know, I haven't hit my head in years. Then a couple of weeks back, I cracked it really hard and then hit it again the same day then the next day cracked it on a shelf.
I won't tell you what I saw or what colour they were, but they weren't stars !

MHN said...

Never noticed grim correcting grammar or spelling before

I'm in SATS mode, Michael !

If you're going to question the existence of God, make sure your grammar is perfect

.....and listen for sounds......¬>>>>>

penny lane said...

Personally I have never needed an imaginary friend

They're more agreeable than the real ones ! ☺ ☺ ☺

christopher butche said...

Reverend Jim Jones.... he spent 20 years building up his Helter Skelter, took way more drugs, had way more sex, was way more paranoid than Manson, and had 1000s under his control. Not to mention the Peoples Temple album is better than LIE

True....but Charlie as a media star got there first and is still alive and has given lots of post apocalyptic interviews ☺ ☺.

Matt said...

I guess man has a predisposition to need to believe that death at the end of this life can't be the end - so he grasps at anything that explains away his deepest fears

While there's a lot in that, belief that God exists doesn't actually solve those problems. It might actually amplify them.

Robert Hendrickson said...

GRIMM: "Humor" was always intended for the masses to comprehend. IE: clumsy man slips on banana peel. BUT you are being sarcastic, which is an intelligent person's way of trying to say: "Hey, I'm just like Joe-six-pack, but I can't get this "bow-tie" off.

Like at the end of "MANSON" Charlie says: I've been up here paying for your sins for 2000 years...
I'm getting tired ..." Most folks would scratch THEIR heads and THINK "This guy is CRAZY" and then THEY become frustrated at the THOUGHT that someone else may actually understand exactly what HE means. AND then the lack of understanding turns to HATE. Which is ONLY cured when THEY realize that of course HE's tired - 2000 years is a long time. AND how much do "sins" COST that it would take 2000 years to pay for THEM ? OMG, the interest rate must have been outrageous or the sales tax was 495%. Fortunately, the myth of the "Lost Marbles" explains Everything.

grimtraveller said...

Sam Smith said...

The Lord has forgiven Tex. He should go free

He also forgave Susan Atkins and the thief that was on the cross with Christ. They didn't "go free." Stephen and James didn't "go free" in the end either. Lots of forgiven people haven't.
Forgiveness from God brings about the kind of freedom that, if you believe it, goes beyond whatever earthly situation one happens to be in. If Tex has been honest about his dealings with God, he's been free for a long time. That doesn't mean he gets a walk regarding his earthly incarceration.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

I'm not comfortable with people who speak very boldly on either side of the God equation. I find it to be arrogant and presumptive

♪I can ♫♪♫be gentle♫ too♫♪♫.....

penny lane said...

Grim i love your posts ..so calm and considered....:)... I on the other hand should not be so flippant with my opinions....if i offended you I apologise.

grimtraveller said...

penny lane said...

if i offended you I apologise

Penny, you didn't. I love good debate and banter. Besides, all is fair in love and war !

Mr. Humphrat said...

That's the worst pic I've ever seen of BB. He's looking old like the others

You know who he reminds me of in this pic ? Mike Belker from "Hill Street Blues."

MHN said...

"If I offended you I apologise"

Oh Penny Lane... those words could be carved on the headstone of the western world. They could be our ironic epitaph.

Those words are the very cause of our decline and death.

Am I blaming you for the death of Western culture, Penny Lane? Would that be fair? Wouldn't that be grossly disproportionate? What the hell, let's go there...

Yes. I blame you. Destroyer!

penny lane said...

Lol....gotta blame someone..and I agree with you to a point , but old habits die hard. I live in a PC nanny state so im programed that way...but being called a Destroyer has an appeal in a weird testosterony kind of way :)

MHN said...

:)

Marlene Ful said...

I dont think that it will change anything for Tex Manson or Pat.The other person that I feel has done his time is Bobby its time for him to be released.

Slenda Brewster said...

I hope she gets out if there is petition 4 it I'll sign