Thursday, May 12, 2016

Joel Pugh's Death Abroad and His San Francisco Address

When an American citizen dies outside of the United States a Report of a Death of an American Citizen form is filled out.  This form falls under the purview of the US State Department and is filled out by the American consulate or embassy officials in the country where the American citizen died.

Such a form was generated upon the December 2, 1969 death of Joel Pugh in London England.


A few years ago Simon Wells posted  Joel's activities leading up to  his unfortunate death at his blog.  Wells interviewed friends and family of Joel who gave candid insight about Joel's mental decline.  It goes a long way to debunk the notion that his death was a murder.  It seems fairly clear to me that Joel's death was indeed due to suicide.  It was not another death supposedly at the hands of a Family member, namely in this case, Bruce Davis. 

Joel Pugh's last known address in the US was 27 Carl Street San Francisco CA.  This address is considered to be in Cole Valley in the Haight-Ashbury district according to real estate websites.  The Zillow listing for this property, which is "off market",  says that it is a condo with 1000sf,  --bedrooms and 1 bathroom.  It looks like the home was converted to 2 or 3 condos.  The current market value of this particular condo is $1,022,814.  and it has a rental estimate of $4,395.!!!

Joel's unit is accessed through a gate to the right of the home.  A big thank you to Stoner for getting the pictures for the blog while on a day "trip" to Haight-Ashbury!



I wondered whether or not the Carl Street address was associated with the Family in any way even though there is no evidence that anyone connected to the Family other than Sandy Good knew Joel.  Surprise, surprise!  I found a distant connection to Carl Street.  There is no limit to the degrees of separation or synchronicity when it comes to the Family.

The connection came in the form of a post made by Matt, here at the blog back in October 2014.  Remember Jan Holstrom, the man that threw a flammable liquid on Charlie Manson and set him afire while in Vacaville Prison in 1984?  After Holstrom, a Hare Krishna devotee, was released from prison he first lived in Berkeley at a Hare Krishna temple.  When that temple moved to San Francisco Holstrom moved with them.  Holstrom made the news in 1995 when he stabbed a fellow Krishna. The new temple was located at 84 Carl Street, on the same block, across the street and down a few doors, from Joel Pugh's old home. What are the odds?

The Krishna temple sits between a café and small city park, it is still functioning as an academic center for the group.







78 comments:

orwhut said...

Good work, Deb. I like to guess who wrote a post before I get to the by line and this time, I recognized your style.

DebS said...

Thanks, Whut!!

Manson Mythos said...

Has it ever even been confirmed that Bruce Davis was even in the United Kingdom after the TLB murders? It appears there is absolutely no documented proof of it and the belief is based on speculation (including that of Law Enforcement and the prosecution. Steven Kay always liked to entertain the idea he might have murdered Pugh) and hearsay based on things William Scanlan Murphy was told.

MHN said...

So many "coincidences".

Almost everything is Mansonland serves as proof that "free will" is a myth. It was never Charlie pulling the strings, he was just another puppet, another buzzing fly wiggling his legs while caught on one strand of a giant web. Everything interconnected. We have the illusion of freedom: every decision we think we have made is really already made for us, and none of us can explain the ultimate root cause of any decision we make. We think we are real people in a real world, we don't realise the world is a play someone else has written, and we are just actors playing "ourselves".

Which is why they all now blame Manson for controlling their actions. They have the knowledge that they were controlled but they know that the truth ("the universe created me to do exactly what I have done") would play poorly with the parole board, and indeed with the world. The world is in denial, wedded desperately to the idea that it is free. Easier to say Charlie made them do it.

Charlie probably recognises that the universe is a web against which it is useless to struggle. He probably knows that humans are slaves to a script they cannot edit. He likely believes that this knowledge makes him more free than others. It does not.

I know nothing about Charlie, I'm merely learning to use him as a mirror. I can do that because he is a myth locked away in a labyrinth, a role the universe decreed for him from the start, a role more beguiling than freedom, impervious to penitence or regret. He sees that, I think. There is no freedom.

Robert Hendrickson said...

MICHAEL (MNM) Are YOU smart enough to understand just how CLOSE you are to the REAL truth ?

AND that what you say is all that separates C.M from the rest of us ? There are ONLY "mirrors" and those who stare into them. SO when you stare at a picture of that EVIL Charlie Manson, guess who YOU are really looking at ? Seriously Michael, may I use YOUR 'comment' HERE in a film ?

The ONLY other person who seems to get it is ALIKEN - when HE / SHE said in the previous POST
I am only using this BLOG to promote MY films. Well, Dah, dah, dah ALIKEN, would YOU please tutor the "Col" cause HE is really a nice guy, but HE keeps banging HIS head into that mirror, which is eventually going to BREAK and shatter glass all over innocent others.

BTW: On December 1, 1969, LAPD Chief Davis ANNOUNCED to the world THEY cracked the Tate/LaBianca murder Case. Then, the next day J.Pugh is DEAD. Maybe HIS death was the REAL "copycat" motive ????

AustinAnn74 said...

Manson wasn't exactly an upstanding citizen. Just sayin.....

MHN said...

Hey Robert, I'm not smart. I just say what I'm predisposed to say. It's not my job to be smart. I'm just in this world to regurgitate.

Panamint Patty said...

Patty lived in the building immediately to the left of the apartment on Cole St. and never knew it's history!

penny lane said...

Pardon my ignorance but who exactly is pulling these strings and freedom means something different to everyone I would have thought...so who or what freedom are u talking about?

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Using Charlie as a mirror might work to clarify, but only if you adhere to contempt and manipulation....two things Charlie used liberally to achieve whatever it was he was trying to achieve. I think I've kinda understood what Charlie has been saying all these years, but because I do not possess an inner societal rage, I can shake it off as the ravings of someone who could not mentally balance himself.
From March 1967 until fall 1969, Charlie crafted a lifestyle that was doomed to fail; the result of fallable jailhouse logic. He knew he wouldn't remain free for long, so he was just getting his licks in until The Man caught up with him again.
Sometimes I think the only thing he learned for real was that 'rich' people (Hinman, Cielo, LaBiancas) don't keep thousands of dollars of cash in their homes at any given time. He went 0-for-3 on that score.

Robert Hendrickson said...

I think PENNY has a point, even the U.S. Constitution has many different "FREEDOMS" mentioned.

IE: For ME the Freedom / Right to vote is ONLY akin to commenting HERE on this Blog, except 'commenting' HERE is more significant.

Alone in my Army barracks one day, a friend I knew before returned from Vietnam and we were talking.

A young "officer" came in, BUT we paid NO attention to him. So, of course, he started-up on HIS Army rules shit and my friend went crazy on the officer. The officer made it out through the double doors as my friend actually ripped one of the doors OFF its hinges.

I THOUGHT "Free at last, free at last" my friend finally found the ultimate FREEDOM from ALL of societie's CHAINS. Of course, ME crazy TOO, BUT it's kind'a groovy.

MHN said...

Penny. Freedom means something different to everyone? You betcha. That's how the illusion is maintained.

Or rather, for fans of the trite, "that's what freedom means".

Nobody is pulling the strings. We are blindly locked into the inexhaustible flow of a cold, grinding mechanism with a hidden absence of purpose.

Or rather, for fans of the trite, "we all pull the strings as an expression of the collective purpose of the universal mind".

Bleurgh. Prisoners. Dead men walking. There's a party on death row. It's you. You invited me but I'm not sure you exist so I didn't come. Then I read in the papers you do exist, it's me who doesn't. Good job I never turned up.

There is no "now" for Charlie to come to. It's something he made up to persuade his gullible followers that he exists.

He doesn't. If he did exist they would've put him on trial for murder and locked him away for the rest of his life.


Robert C said...

Zelda - I agree

RH - like your posts even though most sound like some weird sandwich.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Thanks ROBERT C. my whole life has been weird, EXCEPT when I was filming the MANSON Family.

THEY were very articulate and made perfect sense to ME. BUT I'm sure THEY thought I was way outta place.

Today you HEAR "normal" folks arguing over which people can use which "bathrooms." AND it'll be the end of the world IF Donald Trump becomes President.

AND I really don't mind IF a woman becomes President - Please someone with TALENT _ Sofia Figra, lady Gaga, Byoncee, even Kim Kardashian, BUT Hilary Clinton ?

ColScott said...

Robert



Let me ask you this- what is the DATE of your copyright claim?

Let me ask you this- what is the DATE of your copyright claim?

Let me ask you this- what is the DATE of your copyright claim?

I DID check the copyright office and could not believe what you found.

So I ask

Robert



Let me ask you this- what is the DATE of your copyright claim?

Let me ask you this- what is the DATE of your copyright claim?

Let me ask you this- what is the DATE of your copyright claim?

Sime's World said...


Nice piece of work that acts as a good companion piece to what has already been documented over here in the UK.

I can't really say any more on the subject of Joel than what is contained on my blog - but suffice to say, there's no obvious link to Pugh and Manson other than the Sandy Good affair that had long since concluded by the time of his death.

The key to understanding the slender connection to Manson that has dogged Joel's passing for nearly fifty years, lies in the twisting of the letter sent to Sandy by one “Joanne”. It was clearly manipulated to suit the large remit of murders ascribed to the “Family” at a time when the prosecution was eager to align every “quirky” killing to Manson’s tribe.

No one I know who has read this letter in its entirety believes that it could be considered as an admission of a possible murder. Indeed, the only real “crime” is how it was edited and taken wholly out of context and presented as some sort of “proof” of another “Manson” killing. Adding further insult, is that no one from police or law enforcement had the courtesy to contact Joel’s family regarding his state of mental health at the time of his death. As I revealed, the first time that Joel, his friends and family knew of the murder implication was via “Helter Skelter”. That’s pretty sordid.

Regards

Simon Wells

ColScott said...

Fact- BUG used whatever he could to blame Manson for everything

Panamint Patty said...

Nice to hear from you Simon

Matt said...

Thank you, Simon. I couldn't agree more.

DebS said...

Thank you for commenting Simon! You did a great job debunking the Manson et al connection to Joel's death. I'm honored that you think this is a good companion piece to your documentation on the matter!

orwhut said...

Robert Hendrickson said... MICHAEL (MNM) Are YOU smart enough to understand just how CLOSE you are to the REAL truth ?
AND that what you say is all that separates C.M from the rest of us ? There are ONLY "mirrors" and those who stare into them. SO when you stare at a picture of that EVIL Charlie Manson, guess who YOU are really looking at ? Seriously Michael, may I use YOUR 'comment' HERE in a film ?

Robert,
If you use Michael's comment in a film, "PLEASE" , get permission, have permission notorized, and GET A COPYWRIGHT ON EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE COPYWRIGHTED!!!

orwhut said...

Robert,
Never mind. It's entertaining to see you and ColScott go round and round.

ziggyosterberg said...


According to the US Copyright Office, MHN sold his rights to Laurence Merrick in 1976 for a bag of crisps (potato chips).

MHN said...

I love Mr Hendrickson and, as I don't technically exist, there could never be copyright issues between us.

This copyright issue highlights the genuine value of old-fashioned pre-technological forms like oil painting. A one-off object that cannot be piratebayed. A good old fashioned oil painting, or a front door featuring "pig" written in real murder victim's blood. True originals...

Robert Hendrickson said...

The U.S. Copyright Office "claims" in writing that "MANSON" produced and directed by Robert Hendrickson and Laurence Merrick has an original Registration DATE of 1 Sept 72 & an Original Registration Number of PA 104-333.

I sincerely hope this puts a climatic END to this ridiculous discussion.

I understand that it is entirely possible that YOU got MY "MANSON" mixed-up with one of the others.

There can be NO copyright granted for "titles" and thus many studios like to USE that name to confuse the public into buying THEIR "Manson" shit.

Of course, YOU realize with the aforementioned being the LAW, I can USE something like "MANSON the TRANSFORMER" as a tile for my next film. Or TRANSFORMERS join the Manson Family.

Ouch, here comes the legal fees. Fortunately, Stevie can't HEAR the cash register go "caching," caching.

penny lane said...

Wishful thinking Robert I hope this stops the constant baiting and he shuts up about your business ...but im doubtful because I think Col is really Roger the Penguin !

Robert Hendrickson said...

I don't want to spoil the party, BUT how do you prove something "didn't" happen.

IE: IF Charles Manson sent a telepathic message to Bruce Davis in England, ordering HIM to KILL J.Pugh - how do you prove that never happened ? OR why would YOU even THINK that Manson would have to be involved ? Why wouldn't YOU recognize the possibility that a Family member COULD act alone ?
Awh ! Cause Bugliosi would NEVER support ANY idea of murder - without including Manson ?

How did Vincent Bugliosi PROVE Lee Harvey Oswald acted ALONE ?

There usually is some piece of evidence that shows the other side of the coin, BUT if that "side" is NEVER revealed - WHY do WE "assume" it does NOT exist.

When the Secret Service came to MY home in 75 and interviewed ME do you THINK because there is NO record of such an event, it NEVER exited ?

AND how do KNOW that I did NOT reveal what Clem KNEW about such n' such.

Michael PLEASE help me here: Does it EXIST or does it NOT exist - that is the question.

stoner van houten said...

anytime you need photos taken deb in the bay area im your man!!! ...i love going up to the haight ......

MHN said...

Robert, I cannot help with that. It's because I exist. I'm contingent. You probably know more of the answer than I do.

Something that some people call "God" would have to be beyond contingency, beyond accidentals and incdentals, and in the realm of pure absolute. God cannot "exist", that's an error of logic. God can only be all existence. In the same way "infinity" cannot exist, cannot be merely the highest or the longest number, it must be all numbers, the whole of number, including 1. This is why the "name" of "God" was revealed as being "I am". God does not exist: that's our tiny task in the universe. God does not exist, God is existence. God is.

(Or is not, or does not exist, depending on your ideologically contingent vocabulary, it doesn't really matter.)

Of course other people believe that "God" has written a rule book / historical novel, and speaks to them personally as a kind of cosmic self-improvement guru, an invisible Tony Robbins in the ether. They enliven this drab notion by telling themselves that those who doubt it will be zapped forever in a hidden world that we can't see right now. I like that thought. It has its appeal.

So Robert, to answer your question in my own way, the answer is clearly:

No, it does not exist. But yes, it is. Or is not.

(But you do! So.... Exist! The question is, how can you be more than merely contingent? The search for the truth will set you free. Fun isn't it!) Love and peace my friend.

MHN said...

Oh - unless I misunderstood, and you were actually asking me whether your Manson copyright exists?

In which case, you're asking the wrong guy :)

But yes, it does. You said it does!

penny lane said...

What a complete headfuck ...now i have no idea if I exist...:|

MHN said...

Penny - if you proved you are not a robot and were able to post a comment then you exist! Woohoo! :)

penny lane said...

Thank fuck for that I was worried...

MHN said...

It's all part of your programming, robot penny.

penny lane said...

Yes we are hardwired with fear and guilt...well most people are .

ColScott said...

Robert-

There is no PA 104-333. Which entity was the Copyright Claimant? Thanks.

Robert Hendrickson said...

TRUE STORY: About 20 years ago I had a heart attack and when I reached the "light" GOD said "Can I help you" ? I politely asked "where are those mother fuckers LBJ and Hitler, I want to kick THEIR asses."

Then GOD shouted-out: "He's here, quick - lock ALL the gates - He's come to wreck our Heaven."

All dejected, I headed back down all the way to Hell. There I was met by YES, the Devil Himself.
BUT he too was very fearful and quietly whispered to HIS armed guards: "Quick - lock all the gates - He's come to take MY job."

Panamint Patty said...

Classic

ColScott said...

Robert

Also all your 1000 hours of footage when did you copyright that?

Robert C said...

I exist ... therefore I am. [Dark Star]

Where'd ya come from, how much time ya got, where ya going ?

Friends of mine who have already gone before, after deep consultation prior to, always expressed distaste for existential hogwash.

They were focused on reality (as we know it) in our dimensions.

But then ... what is reality ? [Firesign Theater]

Stay on your rails using gut instinct in the 'know', seek out your personal bliss [Campbell]

prefeteria said...

Reality is a sandwich I did not order! [Zippy the Pinhead]

Robert Hendrickson said...

COLSCOTT: Have your PAID helper Go to Yahoo.com and put US Copyright Office into the search block.
Hit enter and the Copyright Office website should appear. IF it does, click-on post 1978 search records. A search block should appear and IF so, type in the word Manson and click-on enter.
A list of entries should appear and look down to # 8 which should read to the right: Manson by Laurence Merrick d.b.a. Merrick International Pictures. Click-on that and whala You should SEE the pot of gold.

Through all of this and YOUR inability to find the subject copyright info YOURSELF, just HOW in the fucking world does Congress and or the U.S. government expect any of the dingos, who post other people's media materials on the internet, find out whether certain materials are copyrighted or NOT ?

Infringers are telling ME that THEY go to the Internet Archive and YouTube for "Public Domain" and Copyright Info. BUT that's like a Black kid going to Mr. Policeman for directions - BANG, BANG.

I'm sorry for being sarcastic but now I realize that some day soon folks will be going on the internet for a blow-job - at Priesto-molesto.com.

Robert C said...

< Reality is a sandwich I did not order! [Zippy the Pinhead] >

Excellent

Fiddy 8 said...

Wonders...can God microwave a burrito so hot that He can't eat it?

christopher butche said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert Hendrickson said...

I fully understand WHY most folks are so frustrated with just the mention of the word COPYRIGHT, which is directly related to the concept of "intellectual property." Maybe that's WHY God eliminated the concept of "intellect" from the TEN Commandants.

Learn and understand the CONCEPT of "intellectual property" and a whole new and improved world of understanding will OPEN up to YOU. BUT of course, that is WHY in grades K-12 YOU will NEVER hear those words mentioned.

In China, during the country's GREAT famine, the "people" NEVER actually knew their HUNGER was felt through-out the entire nation. That is the real power of inflicting ignorance upon a people. Because the people in every village THOUGHT only THEY were affected by a food shortage, the people, as a whole, never even THOUGHT of "revolting."

Just try to imagine HOW the COL could get through school K-12 AND get a college education in filmmaking, BUT not understand even the REAL "concept" of Intellectual Property. I discovered how that was possible in my first Geraldo Rivera Copyright Infringement Case.

Well, look no further than TODAY, if you are keeping up with the NEWS, you are discovering that YOUR "vote" in the US Presidential Primaries is almost meaningless. So, did your "teacher" ever mention THAT in ANY of the grades K-12 ?

Of course that is WHY we here at the MansonBlog are considered by the masses to be cooks and no god mansonites.

christopher butche said...

Catching up on Rev Jim Jones, his escape from San Francisco to Guyana, then Georgetown to Jonestown. His world was getting smaller and smaller, in the end he was stuck in the jungle and couldn't go to town for fear of arrest.

Any thoughts on Barker Ranch ending up as Manson's Jonestown? Was he grateful the raid took the need to keep going out of his hands? Would the paranoia and isolation ended with revoltionary suicide? He hadn't been out 3 years and his bridges were burning when he wasnt committing arson. Any thoughts on what plan B was if they had to leave Barkers?

Robert C said...

There was no plan B. Everything from the beginning was made up as it unfolded and opportunity presented. Charlie even said so. Ultimately at Barker the Family would need money.

There's no way they could live off the land, even with murdering wild burros. To remain they would have to steal, embezzle, pimp, rob and potentially even murder. They could only amass a little along the way from temporary low income employment, relatives, drugs, fencing and new disciples. They may have skimmed by for a little while with the latter but not for long.

Multiple reports were Chuck was already getting hyper, some denizens had already fled, even Tex, and it likely would have continued that way until real hostilities occurred internally although more likely the poe-leese would get them. Add to this the Chuckster was out of magic and visions, the old ones getting old amongst many acolytes.

I think it would have gotten down to the hardcore ones, maybe about 8, that would have ultimately moved back in closer to an urban area for sustenance had the cops failed to arrive, CM forgiven for perhaps a fuzzy idea.

grimtraveller said...

Fiddy 8 said...

Wonders...can God microwave a burrito so hot that He can't eat it?

Yes !


MHN said...

Of course other people believe that "God" speaks to them personally

Robert Hendrickson said...

Black kid......going to Mr. Policeman.....TRUE STORY:

Some years back, I was in Leicester Square and I perceived God telling me to go and give this policeman a message, it was a partly challenging, partly encouraging message and I was shitting myself and I did not know how to do it or go about it. So I convinced myself that it was just my imagination. Then he and his partner walked off and I was so relieved. But I just kept feeling compelled to go to the copper so I started following him and his partner. I remember, I was wearing new boots and it was December and freezing and my feet hurt and I looked for every excuse to just head to Tottenham court Road STN and go home but then I thought I'd better go and give the message, even if I end up totally embarrassed on a busy packed street. So I stopped the cops and told the one I felt God highlighting the message, expecting, well, I don't really know what I was expecting. But he said to me that he was a Christian and that he'd just that day got news that he'd failed all his exams and was pretty much feeling like shit and questioning where God was after all his faithful belief and what I told him was exactly what he had needed.
I walked away one relieved man !
My feet were still cold and they still hurt till I got home. Never seen him since and that was 1988.
Stuff like that has happened to me so many times over the last 31 years and like Robert asks, how do you prove something "didn't" happen ?
For balances sake, there have also been quite a few times when I thought God was pointing me in a particular direction or saying something and it turns out that he wasn't.
But I would argue till my dying day that God communicates with human beings.

christopher butche said...

Any thoughts on Barker Ranch ending up as Manson's Jonestown? Was he grateful the raid took the need to keep going out of his hands? Would the paranoia and isolation ended with revoltionary suicide? He hadn't been out 3 years and his bridges were burning when he wasnt committing arson. Any thoughts on what plan B was if they had to leave Barkers?

Fascinating prognosis, Captain.
I think that the sands of time were running out for him, which of course is easy to say with all the hindsight that I've been drinking lately. But the net was closing. Even without Kitty Lutesinger, Al Springer and Danny DeCarlo, Samuel Barnett { I can never remember if it's Barnett or Barrett}, his probation officer, testified during the penalty phase of the trial, that around 11 days before Charlie was arrested at Barkers, he'd written a letter which recommended revoking Manson's probation {or parole, I forget which, without Cat's site to be able to check my facts} because of his non compliance with various procedure. Basically, no one knew where he was and he wasn't keeping the officer informed about where he was and what he was doing and with whom. He hadn't spoken with him for months.
When Charlie claims that he told the Family a few times that he didn't want to go back to jail, well, his own actions determined that.

Farflung said...

Spahn's Ranch was, if anything, an amusement park like Corriganville, Knott's Berry Farm, and Disneyland. Each evolving like some sort of Darwinian experiment.

Familys going to Spahn's to rent horses, and experience the Old West town, and see the likes of Grogan leering at their daughters, probably did that exactly ONE time.

Knott's Berry Farm used to have free admission, and parking till (as legend has it) some hippies started squatting on the property and fees were attached to run them off. Disney never let anything pollute his fantasyland, which included employees with facial hair.

The Family perceived themselves as "cool" while constantly isolating themselves. Wilson's home, to a blind man's ranch, to an abandoned, remote, off grid, ranch where they were arrested in less than two months.

How have I managed to go a lifetime with minimal police interaction?

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Ah, that last sentence.
So ironic that people who hated authority and establishment as much as the Family did kept incurring activity assured to keep the Feds doling out the oppression at them. Me, I'm not interested in dealing with cops either, therefore l keep my business clean. But then I'm not a hobo, boxcar or a jug 'o wine.

MHN said...

To paraphrase Hamlet, nothing is God or bad but thinking makes it so.


grimtraveller said...

Manson Mythos said...

Has it ever even been confirmed that Bruce Davis was even in the United Kingdom after the TLB murders? It appears there is absolutely no documented proof of it

These are the references to Bruce being in England in that Nov'69 period and they come from this Daily Mail article from 2009;

"a month before Manson follower Bruce Davis reportedly made his 2nd trip to the UK"

"or with Bruce Davis, one of Charles Manson’s closest associates, who it was alleged happened to be in the London area at the time Joel died"

"Initially, Fowles went to Interpol to confirm whether Davis was in the UK at the time of Pugh’s demise. The enquiry was soon disseminated to police over at Scotland Yard. British police confirmed that Davis’ movements in the UK had been tracked earlier in 69, but couldn't confirm his whereabouts in Dec 69. However, local police believed that Davis had made a return trip to England later that year"

"The local police understand that he has visited our country more recently than April 1969. However, this is not borne out by our official records."

"Stephen Kay, recalled an atmosphere of deep suspicion once news of Joel’s death made its way back to LA. With Pugh’s past association with Sandra Good; the likelihood of Bruce Davis being in UK at the time.."

Not once is there a definitive or even affirmative statement that Bruce Davis was in the UK after Apr'69 when there is definitive proof he was over here up until that date. He is not recorded entering the country or leaving it in that Nov/Dec '69 period.
Those phrases "reportedly," "it was alleged," "but couldn't confirm," "local police believed," "not borne out by our official records" and "the likelihood of" are very patchy phrases that would get thrown out if you went to a Judge seeking a warrant for his arrest. The Judge would say "give me proof, some evidence." As yet, there has been none. As Vincent Bugliosi put it so well, "a belief is not evidence."
Yet this is one of those aspects of the story that Bugliosi got way wrong. While he never actively accused Bruce of murder, the implication is definitely there that Pugh was done away with by the Manson family. His use of a quote of a phrase from a friend in a letter saying something like "I would not want what happened to Joel to happen to me" is purely to add weight to the belief that Pugh was murdered. The statement however, is misquoted and taken way out of context ~ the statement is about going so far into the mind with acid that one ends up killing oneself, because the writer had had suicidal thoughts after tripping on acid. Bugliosi in "Helter Skelter" says that it was an 'unidentified former family member' that wrote the letter that gave rise to the phrase but how could he know ? If the person that wrote the letter was unidentified, how could anyone know who it was, bar Sandy, let alone if they were a former family member ?
In any case she identified herself as 'Joanne.'



grimtraveller said...

Manson Mythos said...

the belief is based on speculation (including that of Law Enforcement and the prosecution. Steven Kay always liked to entertain the idea he might have murdered Pugh) and hearsay based on things William Scanlan Murphy was told

With the death threats to witnesses, potential witnesses like Dennis Wilson and lawyers on both the defence and prosecution, the Family didn't exactly help dissuade from their murderous image.
It's understandable that at some early points in the investigations that the possibility of foul play would come up where Joel Pugh was concerned. After all, two days after Tate, LASO gave LAPD information that could have broken the case there and then. The Tate detectives poo~pooed it when they were told about these strange hippies whose leader Charlie had convinced them he was Christ and the Tate like death of Gary Hinman. 3 months later, the LaBianca detectives ran with the same information and the case broke. After that, the authorities never again ignored any family connected tale. As we see with Joel Pugh, Ronald Hughes, Darwin Scott, Randy Starr and Paul Watkins, LAPD went to the other extreme and suddenly the Family were thought to be responsible for the death or attempted doing away with of anything that moved and then died in the area and sometimes beyond in '69/70.

grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

I don't want to spoil the party, BUT how do you prove something "didn't" happen.

IE: IF Charles Manson sent a telepathic message to Bruce Davis in England, ordering HIM to KILL J.Pugh - how do you prove that never happened ?


I suppose you could prove it never happened if Bruce wasn't in England in December '69.......
One major drawback to the theory of Bruce killing Joel Pugh is this; there has never been any evidence or proof offered that Bruce had the slightest inkling who Joel was or had ever met him. There's never been any proof ever offered that Sandy knew that Joel had gone to England and was holing up in a crummy hotel on the side of an open 6 lane highway that leads to Bristol and Wales. If Joel was doing some travelling around Europe and on a whim had gone to London, how would Bruce have known that and how would he know where to find him and how would he know exactly which room to find him in and where the room was located and how would he get past reception ? I've had a good look at the back of the Talgarth hotel and supposing the room at the back that is opposite the train tracks was Joel's room, for Bruce to get in he'd still have to get the windows open. From the outside.
The eagerness to link the Family with deaths all over the gaff seems to have temporarily stripped experienced LE practitioners of logic and straightforward common sense. With Hinman, TLB, Crowe and Shea we know what they were capable of. There's no need to try to make them look worse than that. You couldn't, really.
I would place the Family info about "a hit in England" on exactly the same level as Susan Atkins talk of the murders in the desert, Ed Bailey's talk of having seen Charlie shoot a man in the head with a .45 and that of Shorty's headless body having been chopped into 9 pieces, not to mention the Charlie flying the bus over the Wash or breathing on the bird and bringing it back to life stories.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

To add to Grim's post, you have to simply wonder ... what did Davis/Manson have to gain by Joel's death? He no longer had ties to Sandy, no stake in her trust fund, and was otherwise a sensitive, emotional fellow. Not exactly prime Family material. The Family had fallouts with many other people at this time. Eliminating Joel Pugh doesn't add up on any level.

beauders said...

Hey Grim you forgot Charlie reattaching Clem's penis when he accidentally chopped it off while slicing on a piece of wood.

beauders said...

Didn't Clem also get his penis reattached by Manson when some girl got a little too excited during a blow job and bit it in half? Sounds like Clem was also getting himself into trouble.

beauders said...

Then there was Zane Grey the house who died and Charlie breathed on him and he arose to continue with life. That must have been some strong LSD they were using.

orwhut said...

Does anyone else remember anything about Charlie having spent time with a magician? If I didn't imagine it, my guess is that the bring a bird back to life trick, was accomplished with a dead bird and a live bird (remember,The Prestige) and that Clem had fake penis that he pretended to have cut off once or twice.

christopher butche said...

Did I read in one of Davis recent parole hearings he mentions the London trip. By boat via north Africa and Spain?

I'm content to accept he was on board a SeaOrg vessel. So it's simply a matter of emailing the Church of Scientology for confirmation. They've probably still got the paperwork and will be happy to associate themselves with Manson (again).

christopher butche said...

Apologies for banging on about Jim Jones, but the book i'm reading makes mention that public holidays (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc) the encouraged practice was to spend it with church members not blood family.

We know Manson was keen on breaking family ties, but I'm not overly aware of what was done to prevent memories of holidays past creeping in during holidays.

I don't think i've read anything on if the family celebrated public holidays. Ok so no watches or calendars but was Christmas Day just another day for them? I so much want to know that Charlie decorated the Christmas Tree.

DebS said...

Christopher, Bruce has said in religious orientated publications that he went to Europe and North Africa on a Portuguese freighter. He says that he turned 26 years old aboard the ship which would have been in 1968. Bruce was born October 5, 1942. Here's a link to one of those publications,

http://www.arm.org/index_htm_files/Newsletter2012Fall.pdf

This is an 8 page pdf with Bruce's story beginning on page 3. I have read another older version of this which on Dennis Rice's old Jesus 2 Jesus website, it was a bit longer and without all the bible references. That version said he sailed on the freighter with two friends. Presumably these friends were not connected to Manson et al as I've never heard that anyone from the Family went with him.

The name of the ship was Acores. It's named in this version of the story,

http://jesuspeopleinfo.org/articles/html/bruce%20davis.htm

So, sorry not a Scientology vessel.

Farflung said...

Looks like the Pupfish killers have been caught.

"The men are accused of tresspassing on April 30, spraying gunfire, tossing beer cans, and ...vomiting..."

Wow, felony vomiting, I've been on a few benders in my past, but couldn't even manage an infraction from my hurling.

One of the suspects is Steven Schwinkendorf of Parump. Besides having an unlikely last name, and equally odd hometown, he can add felony vomiting to his, no doubt, impressive resume.

Matt said...

This (justifiably) will be one expensive bender for those guys.

Having been to the Devil's Hole I can tell you that the U.S. National Park Service went to great expense to protect those fish. There is an iron-caged walkway to get close and the viewing platform is also well protected. You have to really be good at aiming your camera between the iron grating to get good pics of the Hole.

So, they had to do some serious damage to make an opening large enough to get an adult through.

Between legal fees, fines, restitution and court-mandated drug and alcohol treatment they won't get out from under this for a very long time... and that's if they don't pull time.

The Nye County sheriff’s office said it has charged Steven Schwinkendorf, 29, Edgar Reyes, 35, and Trenton Sargent, 26, with the killing of an endangered species, destruction of property, trespassing and unlawful possession of a firearm. They face the possibility of fines of up to $50,000 and a year in prison.

Idiots.




DebS said...

Perhaps the vomiting caused some of the destruction of habitat? According to an LA Times article the men were identified via DNA, I'm guessing the vomit comes into play here..... If one or more of them vomited in Devils Hole and caused the pupfish to die then I guess that's where felonious vomiting charge comes from.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-pupfish-charges-20160513-snap-story.html

grimtraveller said...

beauders said...

Hey Grim you forgot Charlie reattaching Clem's penis when he accidentally chopped it off

For a man, some things are best forgotten.

christopher butche said...

Did I read in one of Davis recent parole hearings he mentions the London trip. By boat via north Africa and Spain?

He was talking about his European jaunt which includes the only London trip that he did. Later he says his Europe trip ran from June '68 to April '69.
He got to be talking about it in connection with him and booze. He is very clear about when he was away from the Family, when he was in Europe and how long he was on the run if you piece together his 2014 and 2015 hearings.
Incidentally, in his last parole hearing, though the chronology is a bit fuzzy, Bruce says a couple of things that partly answer a couple of your recent questions; he said that when Charlie was in jail in Independence, Squeaky was kind of holding everything together at Spahn and that there was no plan because of Charlie being out of the way; things were all kind of up in the air. He also says that he stuck around Spahn from some point in October until the end of 1969.

Matt said...

Deb, if they found them via DNA then they (or he) had prior felonies to get his DNA on file. That complicates matters. That guy will likely see some jail time on top of the massive debt he just incurred. What a dumbass...


Farflung said...

Pupfish fascinated me as an elementary school student. So improbable, a fish in the desert, in a body of water exposed by a crack in a monolith. A food source maintained by a shelf, sunlight, and a species of algae, with an equally tenuous grasp on life.

Truly an example of what made Darwin's theory so true.

Then three morons ride up on an ATV, and prove that Darwin was wrong.

Time for some chlorine in the human gene pool.

MHN said...

Well said Farf.

Robert C said...

" .... if they found them via DNA then they (or he) had prior felonies to get his DNA on file"

Can't they just get the dna from the vomit and compare to that from the person(s) ?

IMHO, the punishment is not enough. I've been hearing for decades about yahoos like this and they always seem to get off easy. I was thinking firing squad at dawn but it would be more fun to tie them by the ankles and lower them head first into Devils Hole but then that would be polluting too. Well I'll think of something more sadistic soon. ;-)



Robert C said...

Oops ... I mis-read Matt. Understand what you mean now.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Well this explains a lot.

A NEW professional POLL of the past worst and best U.S Presidents put LBJ at # 1 (the best)

HE ignited the White vs Yellow race war (Vietnam)

So maybe Charles Manson should get "best" American for, at least, trying to ignite the Black vs White race war (Helter Skelter)

BUT HE did END our beloved Vietnam War, so maybe we should call it a wash.

Robert Hendrickson said...

OBAMA just announced to a graduating class that: "Ignorance is NOT a virtue."

OK, so in 4 years of college, did they teach YOU how to pay OFF the $75,000 student loan on a social workers salary?

Instead, HE could have said it's a "virtue" to spend the next 4 years reading the MansonBlog for FREE and at least YOU would then KNOW more about the important Facts of LIFE, and NOT owe $75,000 to HIM.

OR in short HE could have just said: Don't be "ignorant" when CON-artists like HIM offer to lend YOU money so YOU can PAY guys like HIM to teach YOU to be less IGNORANT.

Four years of 'college' and YOU don't know how to research a "work" on the Copyright Office website! So what's the REAL difference between getting drunk and disturbing the pup-fish in the desert and getting drunk and disturbing the girls at a fraternity party ?

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Farflung said...
One of the suspects is Steven Schwinkendorf of Parump. Besides having an unlikely last name, and equally odd hometown, he can add felony vomiting to his, no doubt, impressive resume.


Clem lives. Once a Scramblehead....

Matt said...

What are you in for?
Peeing.
I got a ticket once for shitting.
Where'd you do it?
No, not me.
My horse, in a hotel lobby.
Oh.


--Harry and Tonto
(one of the greatest B movies ever)

ColScott said...

Robert

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/18/items/catalogofc19723261213libr/catalogofc19723261213libr.pdf There is no mention of the original copyright. Why?

ColScott said...

Harry and Tonto was a major studio release not a B movie.

Please be accurate in your postings going forward.