Tuesday, July 5, 2016

House of Manson


"Some people ask why people would go into a dark room to be scared. I say they are already scared, and they need to have that fear manipulated and massaged. I think of horror movies as the disturbed dreams of a society"

                         - Wes Craven

Deb, who always is one step ahead, had done a post on this film back when they were casting for this project. It has come to my attention that the project has been completed and shown across the pond, as well as made the festival circuit rounds ( where it won awards at over half a dozen including; Snowdance, Canada International Film Festival, North Hollywood Film Fest, Twin City Film Festival, The California Film Awards, International Euro Film Festival) . With Deb's Blessing, I can now report that Gravitas Ventures will be releasing "House of Manson" in the US onto digital platforms and physical media on August 5, 2016.  What that means exactly- I am still not sure lol. But, I am working on it....

Directed by Brandon Slagle, the Film:

" Follows the life of Charles Manson from childhood to his arrest at Barker Ranch following his involvement in the deaths at the Tate and Labainca residences ( among others) during the summer of 1969 which ultimately led to his trial and sentencing. "

Actually, the movie starts with the raid at barker and then backtracks from the start. Early word is that the cast does a pretty good job . Here is a quick look at a few of the players:

 Ryan Kiser stars as Charles Manson ( He played Charlie previously in a 2009 Short I never saw called "Lie")




Devanny Pinn is Susan Atkins


                                                  (OK, No- It didn't have to be a bikini shot)


Sorry... lol anyway, here are a couple more of Devanny:

                                      

Reid Warner is Tex Watson:




Trish Cook will play Kathleen Maddox:




Suzi Lorraine Is Sharon Tate:



The cast also includes a host of other names you probably wont know such as Serena Lorien, Erin Marie Hogan, Britt Griffith, Chriss Anglin, Julie Rose, and Maxine Wasa. This film was originally released in the UK under the shortened title "Manson". Below is a video URL for the full trailer for your viewing pleasure.

                                                    https://youtu.be/Z3pbuWut0fk

As far as early reviews- a few are in. Now, these aren't exactly Rolling Stone level publications lol But, this is what I could find. There were several themes among the reviews. The look of the cast and the job done by the actors playing Charlie and Susan were mentioned repeatedly. Here are some excerpts...

Dread Central: "Informative, Shocking, Violent, saddening, -Slagle should be applauded for taking on a subject that has been beaten to death and giving it a totally new perspective from the audiences point of view."

Shock till you Drop: "It would be easy to think a film about Charles Manson and his followers would be the perfect opportunity to cannonball into the deep end of the exploitation swimming pool. Yet Branden Slagles', as of yet unreleased in the US, House of Manson chooses to heat up the sauna instead. This isn't a party. Its a slow burn."

"Ryan Kiser delivers a powerful performance as Manson. He manages to carry the larger than life persona of Manson with ease. He never lets it become the cartoon it could easily be. This isn't the insane, wacky, creepy Charlie we have seen behind bars and in interviews for decades. The Manson Kiser brings to the screen is less creepy and more controlled than many portraits that have come before.
 
Starburst:  " Won't offer and new insights or conclusions, but it does produce a different slant on a character whose infamy shows no sign of abating. Slagle's film is of interest though. Built on excellent performances and subtle, almost documentary like direction that draws the viewer in."

Flix Chatter- (3.5/5 stars) "Kiser approached the character (Manson) in a very serious tone and does a fantastic job of  conveying the crazy, yet brilliant way Charles Manson was able to draw followers into his cult. Devanny Pinn co-stars as one of Manson's co-followers Susan Atkins and gives a chilling performance as her screen presence is freaky. Pinn truly becomes Atkins onscreen, as the facial reactions make you think this woman is completely off her rocker. An overall amazing performance by Pinn."

Horror Movies CA ( 5/5 stars): " Kiser just may be the best portrayal of Charles Manson I have ever seen, as I said its a scary thought, but that just goes to show Kiser's acting ability in bringing this devious character to life, and it appears everyone has his chemistry about them as they all deliver. But of all the family members Devanny Pinn delivers this wickedly sadistic portrayal of Susan Atkins. Everything from her smile to her laugh, she brings a whole eeriness to the proceedings as none of her heinous actions seems to have any moral implications to her and Devanny just delivers.

"Its paced well, it captures the essence of the time periods. The violence is horrifically convincing., and the characters just shine through. If you want to see a film about Charles Manson without glorifying his actions, House of Manson is a film you need and I urge you to keep your eyes peeled for this one. Its brooding, dark, and absolutely fascinating."

CineKatz:  "The attention to detail is outstanding and aside from moments that have too much shaky camera work and sound designs of a modern horror film, this one stays true to the look you would see in a movie made in the late 60's or 70's. I don't know what type of film stock was used, but kudos to their cinematographer for getting that aspect correctly. Not only was Slagle good at getting the look of the film down, the casting was dead on too. ( no pun intended)"

"Ryan Kiser is amazing as Charles Manson. He plays him as a real person and not some crazy guy spouting wild shit. Seeing him portrayed this way makes him a bit more scary as you can see just how charming and manipulative he was. Devanny Pinn has some pretty chilling moments that make her seem more lost from reality than to the leader himself." 

Children of Samhain: "The film is told from the perspective of a fly on the wall, and therefor is neither a direct condemnation nor glorification of the man who orchestrated the murder of no less than seven people including a pregnant Sharon Tate. Instead the movie allows the viewer to be seduced by his charms, before being thrown head first into the sheer brutality of his madness."

" If there was ever an award given for casting in Indie films, it would have to go to Alexis Lacono, because not only is every single actor in this film immensely talented, but seemingly everyone is a dead ringer for their real life counterpart. Its truly remarkable. The members of the Manson Family are absolutely amazing".






Here is a bit of what IMDb says:

"Kisers performance has gained accolades for his fresh take on the character, portraying him not as the ranting caricature often seen in low budget film adaptations of the story, but as a flawed, human individual who also happens to be responsible for some of the most heinous acts in US history. Also garnering accolades is Devanny Pinn's ( The Black Dahlia Haunting) chilling portrayal of Susan Atkins who has since died in prison of a brain tumor."


Like I said, not exactly cutting edge sources, but you get the general idea of what people are saying so far. The word of mouth is pretty good. I will have my fingers crossed. I always do. I have seen some really good stuff on this subject ( Robert Hendrickson Manson Documentaries, Manson Family Vacation, Marcy Mary May Marlene) and I have seen some Garbage (Leslie- My Name is Evil, Helter Skelter, any/all TV movies and Documentaries not made by Robert Hendrickson) Based on what I have read and the trailer I have watched- House of Manson shows some promise as far as something new and interesting to watch on the subject.


Its amazing how much new stuff still comes out about the subject. New Books, TV specials, Movies, and even websites lol still pop up consistently after all of these years. Of all the crimes which happened in my adult lifetime- nothing has captured the imagination like this case did for so many with the possible exception of OJ. When I was a kid growing up in NJ a bunch of kids in Long Island New York went in to woods on acid and angel dust and had a satanic ritual and murdered some poor kid. It was savage beating and murder. It involved drugs, hippies and music. It was the biggest news in the world to our area... for about three weeks.

Why is it that Manson and OJ stay with us when others crimes have come and gone which were more vicious and involved more deaths? Scarier people, who have done worse things, and we seem to have chosen these two as the ones to hold on to over the years. I have some ideas as to why:

Location, Location, Location:  Hollywood, Brentwood. An area of wealth and fame that most people are naturally curious about. When the darkness creeps into the brightest of spots we have in our society that makes it extra spooky.

Victims: Beautiful people. In particular Sharon/Nicole-  Beautiful Blonde women getting killed in their own homes, in exclusive neighborhoods, and in savage fashion. Like a car wreck- its hard to turn away.

Villains: Charlie/OJ. Out sized personalities. Two guys who you couldn't keep your eyes off. OJ for his fame and familiarity, and Charlie for his Charisma and Unpredictability.

St. Circumstances of Crimes: Both were so surreal. OJ and the Bronco chase. The Family with the blood writing on the walls- in both cases- the vicious nature of the stabbings. The absolute savage gore at the scenes. Watching the entire cases play out so publicly from the finding of the bodies up through the  verdict at the trials. Water cooler chat for weeks and months on end.

Trial: Two of the most fascinating, and lengthy, trials we had ever seen. in both trials, the cast of characters and lawyers involved only added fuel to the fire. Imagine Charlie with the Dream Team? if the details of the cases themselves weren't interesting enough on their own- both trials lasted months and each day gave fresh new stories and people to be dissected and broken down. From Caito and Faye Resnick and the private sex/drug lives of OJ's group of jet-setting friends, to Brooks Posten testifying he thought Charlie was Christ, and the girls on the corner wearing X's and shaving there heads- you were mesmerized in both cases by the peripheral people in the case and their stories. Attorneys like Schrek and Cochran to Kanarek and Bugliosi. Huge egos and personalities at every turn.

At the end of the day, I don't know really what makes these two cases different. Above is just a few ideas as to why this case seems to stick with us so passionately. what I do know is that the interest doesn't appear to be going anywhere. As long as they keep making new movies, books, TV specials- I will keep checking them out. As always, I will hope for the best. I am not sure what I am really looking for anymore anyway from films like this. Something interesting I guess will suffice. I am not expecting to learn, nor do I expect any of these shows/movies to give me answers to the real questions I have about TLB...

I am waiting for Robert Hendrickson's next project to do that  ;)


Well, that is about it until I watch the Movie myself. Then I can tell you more. In the meantime, let me leave you with what most of you really want. Another bikini pic of Devanny Pinn...





                                                         - Your Favorite Saint


UPDATE:  I was able to watch the first 30 minutes, or so, online before the virus warnings started lol. I hope it didn't cost me a laptop, but I guess we will see. I made it to the point where Charlie seems to be about to find out that he was NOT going to be a music star. It is pretty easy to tell that this is where things were about to change. Up till the point I saw there was very little talk about violence and just a few mentions of  "The Armageddon. They were laying some of the groundwork slowly for the ideas of where Race War might come from, but nothing specific yet. Despite what I read in the reviews, the Susan character hadn't really had much of an impact as of yet. The LULU character was way over acting. That was the first character where I felt it was being way overplayed. The Tex character was ok so far, and there was a decent scene where Charlie has the "Will you Die For Me" conversation with Tex. Those kids of scenes were the first where Charlie starts to show any real sings of menace. The Charlie Character is, so far, just what they said in the reviews-. understated and mellow. A very likeable guy in most regards up to this point. There is a scene between him and his mother when she tells him that Rosalie is gone where you almost feel sorry for him. Kiser has done alright so far. There is another scene where they play the Manson song "Sick City" and it is actually Kiser signing. This was, to me, was the most impressive thing I saw or listened to so far. I think most will agree that he nails Charlies voice if nothing else. Spahn Ranch scenes are realistic and good. The Story is not accurate and they get several of the facts wrong. The filming is decent, but you can tell its an indie budget. Also they play some modern music in the background of a couple of scenes, which I didn't like. You can tell for certain that they are going to use the Music Business as, at least, the reason things started to get dark, but they sort of hinted that H/S was going to become a factor as well, although through the first half hour there was no real mention of it.The beginning is pretty much Charlies trip from poor runaway to becoming immersed in a lifestyle of peace and love. They do show one interesting scene from Charlie's youth where a decent relative gives him some advice that he seems to repeat throughout his life.  So far, on balance, it is a semi- entertaining version of the events leading up the time just prior to the violence starting with decent performances. It is not totally satisfying though as the facts are off, and there is not much new so far. It wasn't too badly acted, or overacted ( Except LULU Character)- but that would probably be coming next as things start to get more serious around them. I can tell you two things for sure. It was interesting enough to warrant me watching the rest, but I don't think this is movie that is going to be very popular in the TLB community. Not accurate enough, and a little too cheesy. on a scale of 1 to 10 Coors-lights I give the first portion  3 1/2 beers so far. Now, with all the serious business coming up- I expect that this can go either way. I can still see this becoming really silly and cheesy, or if Susan's character starts to exert itself like I read- and Charlie and Tex characters are as good when it gets tense as they were at playing it cool- it could work its way up to a 6-pack maybe. I cant see this being a very good or great movie though. However, I still have more than half way to go so,

We will see.....





145 comments:

orwhut said...

A most enjoyable report, St. The cast is very attractive.

St Circumstance said...

Thank you orwhut :)

I am going to take a minute to go off topic on my own post. I just have to recommend a book to Mr. Hendrickson.

I cant do a post on this book as it is too off topic, but I hope it is o.k to mention it in my own space on my own post...



"Witness to the Revolution" Radical, Resister, Vets, Hippies and the year America lost its mind and found its soul. Author- Clara Bingham.


The electrifying story of the turbulent year when the sixties ended and America teetered on the edge of revolution

As the 1960s drew to a close, the United States was coming apart at the seams. From August 1969 to August 1970, the nation witnessed nine thousand protests and eighty-four acts of arson or bombings at schools across the country. It was the year of the My Lai massacre investigation, the Cambodia invasion, Woodstock, and the Moratorium to End the War. The American death toll in Vietnam was approaching fifty thousand, and the ascendant counterculture was challenging nearly every aspect of American society. Witness to the Revolution, Clara Bingham’s unique oral history of that tumultuous time, unveils anew that moment when America careened to the brink of a civil war at home, as it fought a long, futile war abroad.

Woven together from one hundred original interviews, Witness to the Revolution provides a firsthand narrative of that period of upheaval in the words of those closest to the action—the activists, organizers, radicals, and resisters who manned the barricades of what Students for a Democratic Society leader Tom Hayden called “the Great Refusal.”

We meet Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn of the Weather Underground; Daniel Ellsberg, the former Defense Department employee who released the Pentagon Papers; feminist theorist Robin Morgan; actor and activist Jane Fonda; and many others whose powerful personal stories capture the essence of an era. We witness how the killing of four students at Kent State turned a straitlaced social worker into a hippie, how the civil rights movement gave birth to the women’s movement, and how opposition to the war in Vietnam turned college students into prisoners, veterans into peace marchers, and intellectuals into bombers.

With lessons that can be applied to our time, Witness to the Revolution is more than just a record of the death throes of the Age of Aquarius. Today, when America is once again enmeshed in racial turmoil, extended wars overseas, and distrust of the government, the insights contained in this book are more relevant than ever.

grimtraveller said...

Sounds like it should be read alongside David William's "Searching for God in the sixties," St.

St Circumstance said...

never heard of that, but I will check it out ;)

Farflung said...

Viewpoints appear to be time (age) based, combined with experience.

Those alive during the Manson era are far less likely to become apologists, or fanboys. It was a tear in our social fabric, and a retrograde arc from the Fabulous Fifties. Keep in mind the 50's had Great Britain rationing food for half that decade.

We were fighting a war in Korea (with the same generals from WWII) and losing.

The 60's not only brought Viet Nam, but civil rights, and the "Great Society" programs.

Half a century later Adolf Hitler still has a fan base, so Manson shouldn't be too shocking.

The Great Society has over 100 million people on welfare. Which made every citizen a potential liability to the country. Making the subject of immigration far more complex than the oft quoted Ellis Island days.

Recent news has the UK being scolded for defiantly leaving the EU. The last time the UK stood their ground, they saved the world.

Will history repeat? As it repeats, does it spiral towards the ninth circle of hell? The third circle being gluttony. What's the national obesity rate? Correlation? Who knows.

HellzBellz said...

@ Farflung: I always wanted to ask you about your BloggName, does it represent the meaning of the word Farflung/WideSpread/Far Away/ Remote/ or does it represent the Los Angeles based Band ??
Grtzz H.B.

orwhut said...

O.T.
Restless Souls is available through bookbub as $.99 download. This is probably a one day offer.

http://landers.bookbub.com/covers/?source=gakn356&gclid=CPep2-T23M0CFcYdgQod5loKvw

I do not own stock in or work for bookbub.
Whut

MHN said...

Farflung, do you really think the rulers will allow mere UK citizens to disrupt the ongoing Coudenhove-Kalergi masterplan? By something as old-fashioned as voting? Never. We voted wrong; vote again, slaves.

Skelter Helter is now the only way out of that trap. Some people want to build peace on foundations so offensive that war is the only moral response.

Farflung said...

Hellz,
My nom de plum is only associated with global travels. I don't possess any musical or artistic talents. But wish I did.

MHN,

It's the "mere" UK citizens who stood against (and alone) the Fascist powers last century, which would have produced a very different society.

Don't worry about civil rights, or welfare, because there are forced labor camps to make stuff, and extermination camps to eliminate the dissenting faction.

I still cling to voting leading to a greater good, in the face of short term economic benefit, or peer pressure.

I may be living in a vacuum, in a parallel universe. So don't wake me up, because I need the eggs.

MHN said...

You are not wrong, friend.

They are going to steal what they are not given.

grimtraveller said...

Farflung said...

It's the "mere" UK citizens who stood against (and alone) the Fascist powers last century, which would have produced a very different society

That's a rather, ah, alternative reading of history, n'est pas ? And laced with the delicious irony that the class ravaged nation with the empire that eschewed the democracy it trumpeted is whom you are talking about.

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

never heard of that, but I will check it out

A taster of David R's stuff can be found among these very pages.......
The book itself starts kind of slow. It's like a slog through thick honey. Then the honey gets warm and before you know it, you'll be slicing through the pages and sometimes marvelling at where he's coming from.

Farflung said...

Very true Grim,

But if ever there was a time where the end justified the means, then let's make an alliance of poorly constructed "democracies", vs living under a perfect dictatorship.

At least we have a chance at getting it right next time. Or not.

MHN said...

Talking of, ah, delicious irony: "It's like a slog through thick honey."

Physician heal thyself.

You're right, grim: We were no better than the Nazis. Most people, given a choice between living under Nazi domination or as subjects of the British Empire would've said there was literally no difference. We weren't brave, we were hypocrites. True bravery consists of sitting at a keyboard half a century later and belittling the sacrifice and the guts our country showed then, on the basis that it had a class structure and the remnants of an Empire.

Oh, class ravaged should really be hyphenated, comrade. And it's n'est-ce pas, not n'est-pas. Shame. Would've looked so sophisticated and cosmopolitan had you managed to pull it off.



Zadfrack said...

That's supposed to be Tex?

St Circumstance said...

Yep

Robert Hendrickson said...

PLEASE Saint: tell us all WHY you THINK the turbulent 1960s are OFF topic for a Manson Family Blog ? Especially when YOU apparently THINK a bunch of wannabe actors pretending to be REAL people in a movie called "House of Manson" is relevant / on topic. "LOL"

AND hey - YOU Across the POND Gang - speak English so the rest of us can understand WHY you are NOW grumbling about "giving back" to the GREEKS, who so generously GAVE us THEIR Democracy and Baklava, back in the day.

St Circumstance said...

Well, the Movie does mention Manson... ;)

But Frankly, the book is way more interesting lol- at least than what I have seen so far of the movie.

That book is like reading the cliffnote version of a Mr. H commentary. Its the same subject, but I can actually understand the stories.

St Circumstance said...

You are the most interesting person in the community to me Mr H.

I just wish you would tell me everything you know straight lol

I know that's not happening. But is that because you can't or just choose not to?

grimtraveller said...

MHN said...

Physician heal thyself......Oh, class ravaged should really be hyphenated, comrade. And it's n'est-ce pas, not n'est-pas. Shame. Would've looked so sophisticated and cosmopolitan had you managed to pull it off

My number one fan speaks !
Again........

grimtraveller said...

Farflung said...

But if ever there was a time where the end justified the means......

.....then WW2 was it. I've never denied that or argued against that and I wouldn't. Hitler got what was coming to him and it was a just war. He and his machine had to be stopped.
Some could and have argued that some of the seeds of Hitler's rise can be found in the terms of the treaty of Versailles and the way Germany was brought to its knees but that's a long and convoluted debate that has no easy answers but is interesting to explore.
However, my point still stands. Despite Michael getting his grim knickers in a twist, as is his wont, far from belittling the sacrifice of Brits during the war, I question whether it is accurate to say that Britain stood alone against the fascists and yeah, it is a delicious irony that a nation that had an empire that it had no intention of letting go of in the years 1939 ~ 1945 should be fighting the army of a guy who wanted his own empire because, even more ironically, he admired Britain and was fascinated by how this tiny island had smacked up half the world.
That it is ironic doesn't mean it was wrong.

MHN said...

There was a period when Britain, alone among meaningful powers, was standing alone against Hitler. That's history. It's not alternative. You were wrong.

grimtraveller said...

MHN said...

Physician heal thyself

It comes highly recommended.

Most people, given a choice between living under Nazi domination or as subjects of the British Empire would've said there was literally no difference

There are still plenty of people alive who have very keen and clear memories of living under British rule in India and across Africa and the fact is, some of them see scant difference and some of them don't. For many people, being subjugated in one's own land and being denied basic freedoms wasn't vastly different from what old Adolf had in mind, actually.
The empire was so bleedin' glorious that country after country couldn't wait to get shot of being part of it and be independent. And after WW2 it was always going to be hard to justify having an empire having just fought for 6 years to stop that geezer having one.
Not that Britain didn't try {India, Kenya......}.
Even Ireland showed how wonderful the empire was in the run up to 1919.
Interestingly, last month when Muhammed Ali died, many people brought up the respect they had for him in his stand against the American guv'ment over fighting in Vietnam. At the time {and bassist Willie Dixon of "You shook me" fame had done similar 20+ years earlier during WW2} Ali was very vocal over the fact that as a Black guy in America he was treated like shit and so why should he be fighting some army that hadn't treated him like his own countryfolk, people he didn't even know ?
Comparisons between states and what is "good" and "bad" are pretty convoluted and it would be oh so nice to have a civil discourse about such matters.

We weren't brave, we were hypocrites

Paradoxically, many were both brave and hypocritical.

True bravery consists of sitting at a keyboard half a century later and belittling the sacrifice and the guts our country showed then, on the basis that it had a class structure and the remnants of an Empire

When you speak of sacrifice, you really need to be clear about who the recipients of the sacrifices were. WW2, like most things in life isn't a simple 2+2=4, more like a 2+2 makes 22. It has nuances busting out of every corner. Nuances, paradoxes, ironies and a lot more besides.
And you could hardly call the situation that Britain held in 1939 "the remnants of an empire."

Robert Hendrickson said...

tell us all WHY you THINK the turbulent 1960s are OFF topic for a Manson Family Blog ?

Even the off topic bits and sidetracks are sometimes compelling reading !

Robert Hendrickson said...

SAINT: I am tinkering with the idea to make "TWO" 5 hour MANSON mini-series where EACH has the same visual image, BUT each also has it's own sound track.

ONE could be a typical Hendrickson "mental-puzzle" and the other would be the MANSON puzzle
"completed" in a form where even your everyday COP will get it.

I don't ANSWER your "dearest" questions HERE, because I am here to read, listen and THINK about what YOU folks have to say.

BUT here is a relevant THOUGHT: IF Charles Manson actually ignited Helter Skelter in order to cause an END to the Vietnam WAR, he would have been "prosecuted" for TREASON.

MHN said...

As always, when the squid is challenged it pumps out as much ink as it can to cloud the waters.

St Circumstance said...

lol there you go again, lolol

but I admit you have hooked me. I wanna be smart enough to get it, so I will keep trying

:)

MHN said...

For instance: "When you speak of sacrifice, you really need to be clear about who the recipients of the sacrifices were. WW2, like most things in life isn't a simple 2+2=4, more like a 2+2 makes 22. It has nuances busting out of every corner. Nuances, paradoxes, ironies and a lot more besides."

Wow. Maximum number of words used? Check! Yet managed to say literally nothing with them? Check! While conveying an air of patronising authority and subtle thoughtfulness? Check!

I think we hit peak-grim.

My knickers aren't in a twist, I'm just amusing myself, grim. I know of several historians from former colonies who state that despite celebrating and treasuring independence, exposure to British norms and institutions is in retrospect the best thing that happened to their countries, especially when compared to certain neighbouring countries whose colonial history was far more brutal and genocidal than anything Britain ever imposed on its empire, and who are now utter basket cases.

Sometimes, teacher, it's a case of 2 + 2 = 2 + 2

consensusinidem said...


@MHN

Well done for tackling the biggest pedantic know-it-all on the TLB blogs.

Kevin Marx said...

Hey Michael, I always enjoy reading your posts, you're without doubt one of the most intelligent and articulate posters on here.

However I can't agree with your view on the British Empire.

Whatever the benefits of british norms and institutions (and I agree countries did progress in some ways) you have to weigh that against the actual history, which included an incredible amount of brutality and bloodshed. I wonder about the historians who say that it was the best thing that happened to their countries - how many of them really considered the cruelty their ancestors suffered just so they could benefit from British institutions.

It would take an age to discus in detail on here, so I would point you to Richard Gott's fine book "British Empire - Resistance, Repression and Revolt" - which lays bare the truth about Britain's imperial history.

MHN said...

Thanks Kevin, I'd be happy to read it. I'm not a flag-waving patriot by any means, and the only Empire I'm happy to unequivocally defend is the Roman Empire, on the grounds that it absolutely rocked, so we probably don't even disagree too much. In any case, I only emerged from my cave because Farflung had said something I thought interesting (though of course a certain word-vomiter weirdly decided it was all about him, as usual, whereas it was merely a fleeting gesture to brush the post-colonial-studies dandruff from his shoulders on my way out).

St Circumstance said...

Hey by the way...

Any of you guys/gals over in England hear of this Movie when it was playing??

I imagine someone would have said something if they saw it, but was it even something that any of you even were aware was playing?

Thanks!

Robert Hendrickson said...

Very interesting and relevant that MNM would find the Roman Empire at the top of HIS list. In a certain way Manson SAW the Great American Empire also "falling" from its perch upon granite columns stretched all the way to the heavens above.

There is a new PBS program on the history of ISIS and guess what; A guy named (pronounced) Zarcowie started it all with the HELP of the "Bush" team. This Zarcowie character was basicly your typical LOSER, but THEY needed a "link" from Bin Laden to Iraq, in order to SELL an invasion of Iraq.

So here is Zarcowie's profile; As a young kid growing up on the wrong side of the tracks, HE became an "in & out" of trouble kind of guy, ending up in prison. HE eventually tried to join up with Bin Laden's Al Queda terrorist Gang, but it seems HE couldn't make the grade. So HE began his own GANG and when THEY (the Bush Gang) needed a name to show Al Queda was moving in on Iraq, Zarcowie's name came up and wala OUR government made HIM a ROCK Star of the 'terrorist' world.

AND of course, as America's "establishment' promoted Zarcowie to international status, HE ran with it ALL the way - turning HIS Gang into ISIS.

NOW is that relevant here - ORWHUT !

Shorty's pistols said...

Hasn't this flick been kicking around for a few years? Something ($?) must be limiting the ability to be released in the US.

MNH, you are cracking on Grim for being wordy? I remember some of those breeze fests you had with RH. Those exchanges dragged on and on a bit also.

I have much love for Austin Ann and Grim. They both travel an uphill trail on this forum and do it quite well, IMHO. Grim is a reader and plows thru lots of transcripts and the like. He gives his opinions on the content and I appreciate his work, for the most part.

MHN said...

Shorty's Pistols: wordy? What the fuck are you talking about? If you want to know what I find tedious about the guy, how about trying the following: read what I wrote.

MHN said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert Hendrickson said...

Seems some of us get the letters MHN mixed-up, so I'm renaming Michael " 3 letters from across the pond."

TO: 3 letters from across the pond. How come you folks get to "vote" yourselves OFF the reservation and WE get stuck with a system that ONLY pretends to be democratic ?

MHN said...

RH, henceforth known as Former Possessor of the Infamous Marbles: we got to vote, but whether our vote will be honoured is another matter. I have doubts about that. Our federal superstate is still being built (stealthily) and if we hadn't voted to get out now, we might never have had the chance again.

Move to the desert, live out a de facto secession, keep your heads down, do NOT send hit squads into the cities to murder people, and they might just leave you in peace to be master of your own life.

But I wouldn't bet on it.

Kevin Marx said...

@Michael - apologies, it seems I misinterpreted your views. You have now got me thinking about the Roman Empire - there is just not enough hours in the day to research all of this stuff!

orwhut said...

Robert Hendrickson said...
NOW is that relevant here - ORWHUT !

Sounds interesting, Robert.

Dreath said...

Saint, here is an update on the movie from June 2016:

http://www.joblo.com/horror-movies/news/gravitas-ventures-to-release-charles-manson-biopic-house-of-manson-331

"Gravitas Ventures will be releasing HOUSE OF MANSON onto digital platforms and physical media in the United States on August 5th."

Although the female (Atkins?) holding a revolver behind the blond (Sharon Tate?) and guy (Jay Sebring?) in the lead picture is a little 'disconcerting'.

St Circumstance said...

Thanks!!

Farflung said...

What I opined about the British during WWII was genuine and sincere. They literally saved the world.

It would have been far easier for them to align with the NAZIS and rule the planet as an "empire", but the average subject resisted. To their great individual expense.

What exactly is the definition of heroic?

As a Yank, I use the Imperial measurement system, tort laws, and whatever else we can steal from a society with advanced views.

We use the French weight system, the German postal system, and most of the English legal system.

That doesn't mean we couldn't tell who was wrong in 1939, we were just too slow to react.

orwhut said...

If that Manson film, can't remember the name, that has a man playing a woman and more than one person playing the same character can get picked up by Netflix, this one should at least be released in the USA and probably should get an Oscar.

MHN said...

Regardless of what anyone thinks is 'true', when is some filmmaker going to make a Manson movie that goes big on race war, instead of just treating it as a whacked-out nutty drug-fuelled pretext?

I'd love to see the idea given due weight and treated with 'respect'.

It could be part of that fabled 'conversation' the US keeps demanding of itself.

Carthago delenda est

penny lane said...

Umm what the fuck happened in Dallas..??..not getting much news over here .

St Circumstance said...

A non violent protest march was ambushed my- apparently trained- gunman. So far, as of 7:45 am US EST 5 cops killed, 6 cops injured, 1 civilian protester wounded. These were transit cops and marching with the protesters.

No need to worry about the Islamic Terrorists if we are going to kill each other off.

Speaking of the wild 60's - I wonder if any of my esteemed older piers here can tell me if there has ever been a year like this, between the politics, world upheaval, and domestic madness- since those turbulant times?

Matt said...

It's coming down fast...


St Circumstance said...

no shit lol

Robert Hendrickson said...

JACKIE LACY Los Angeles DA says: "...the words "Rise and "Death to Pigs" on the living room wall."

"These words announced the alleged "rising-up" of the African-Americans and their hatred toward the white establishment who were called "pigs."

SOME folks will just NEVER get it - instead THEY get Hillary Clinton.

"So when Charlie gets OUT, the revolution is on."
Manson Girl

OOOEEE ! We better keep HIM locked-up FOREVER.



Shorty's pistols said...

This is a wild year. in '68 I went from 18 to 19, from Pabst to Microdot. It was a real emotional sleigh ride as something big happened every few weeks.

This is just a sample of '68 events and news...

LBJ (RH's favorite whipping boy) announces he won't be back for another term
MLK murdered in Memphis
Russians invade Prague and capture Alexander Dubcek
White Album is released
RFK murdered in Los Angeles
US Olympians display the Black Power salute on victory stand Mexico City
The Big Mac (49 cents) is introduced

Something big or new was jumping off every few week in '68

St Circumstance said...

Yeah, I guess I picked the wrong week to write a review of a mediocre to bad movie which more than likely nobody except me in this community will bother to watch lol

oh well, for my next post, I will go back to making controversial statements nobody else agrees with.

Someone has to live up to the "Lots of idiots in this room" label

;)

Shorty's pistols said...

St, I'll watch that flick to see Devanny Pinn in action, if nothing else.

St Circumstance said...

lol

penny lane said...

Thanks St...scary shit...getting lots of news now and its really sad and hard to process ! Whats next ? CIVIL WAR.??

St Circumstance said...

Yeah... As I was typing that- the coverage was cut to DC as for a bit our Capital was on lock-down as well this morning...


Read and white, blue suede shoes..

Said I'm Uncle Sam how do you do???

Give me five, I's still alive. Aint no luck, I done learned to duck...


:)

St Circumstance said...

Speaking of movies....

I was told about a movie from late 60's called Equinox. I was looking into it and while reading an article abut how the director might have been crazy, or something like that Charlie came into the reading lol:


Equinox, a 1967 California creation with a budget of roughly $6,500, was a horror film that succeeded, curiously enough, with very little night and shadow. A 1967 California creation with a budget of roughly $6,500, Equinox was a horror film that succeeded, curiously enough, with very little night and shadow.

Succeeded? Precisely because this story of four 20-something hikers on a picnic who stumble across a writ of some ancient unleashed evil that has them battling demons for 80 minutes, while an immediate sensation on the midnight movie showing, most significantly went on to influence director Sam Raimi (along with George Lucas and special-effects god Ray Harryhausen). Raimi, of the blockbuster Spider-Man trilogy, debuted with The Evil Dead, a stunner in its own right.

“Raimi got every idea he ever had from Equinox,” Calhoun says. “I mean, the plot’s the same as Evil Dead, and Equinox even has the superimposed spinning clocks and Herb Tarlek and stop-motion!”

A contention not at all denied. “I had seen Equinox at least twice in drive-ins before making Evil Dead,” Tom Sullivan, special-effects and makeup artist for the Evil Dead movies, writes in the liner notes of the Criterion DVD set Backyard Monsters: Equinox and the Triumph of Love.

It even, in a certain crazy way, presaged the Charles Manson murders by showing relatively clean-cut kids in the grips of demonic forces in the sunblasted deserts and hills of Southern California.

“They made every single connection between cheap, creepy, weird and dangerous work for them,” says poet/singer/confrontationalist Lydia Lunch, whose appearance on Sonic Youth’s “Death Valley ’69” did very much the same thing.

No mistaking, then, that all of these flicks collected around the same fateful set of years during which, it was widely held, the age of peace and love had ended. Vietnam was in full swing, corruption in high places, the aforementioned acid-fueled Manson murders and ball-busting rowdies by way of Hells Angels turned murderous in ’69 at Altamont. Which is precisely where 1973’s Brit import Psychomania (aka The Death Wheelers), the story of a cult of Satan-worshipping bikers who have decided that suicide is the key to eternal life, comes in. Not out-and-out scary, but its overriding, disturbing moral turn did what many slasher films couldn’t.

Dreath said...

Saint Said: Read and white, blue suede shoes..

Said I'm Uncle Sam how do you do???

Give me five, I's still alive. Aint no luck, I done learned to duck...

If Charlie had been a Deadhead, instead of a Beatlemaniac no on would have died.

Sweet blossom come on under the willow
We can have high times if you'll abide
We can discover the wonders of nature
Rolling in the rushes down by the riverside

PS: I'll watch the movie, too.

St Circumstance said...

:)

Robert Hendrickson said...

Because of all the shootings yesterday, a news station had an important Black man on and they asked him: How do we stop all this Cops - Blacks- Killing stuff ?

He responded: "First there has to be a dialogue, but every time there is to be one, something else comes up and it NEVER happens" From the 1950s to the 60s to the 70s, to the present. it NEVER happens, BUT what IF Charles Manson was ALLOWED to speak back in 70 ?

What if HE opened up about the Black / White race WAR and how the Black man would one day be on the top, instead of the bottom ? What IF he explained just who the "PIG" is and WHY it must DIE ?

OR - what if THEY just shut HIM up FOREVER ?

Matt said...

Dreath said...

If Charlie had been a Deadhead, instead of a Beatlemaniac no on would have died.


Dreath, if the total of the human population were deadheads there would be no violence. The prisons would contain only chocolate chip cookie thieves.

Ain't no time to hate, barely time to wait...


St Circumstance said...

Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
Dizzy with eternity.
Paint it with a skin of sky, brush in some clouds and sea
Call it home for you and me.
A peaceful place or so it looks from space
A closer look reveals the human race.
Full of hope, full of grace, is the human face.
But afraid, we may our home to waste.
There's a fear down here we can't forget hasn't got a name just yet
Always awake, always around singing ashes to ashes all fall down.
Now watch as the ball revolves and the nighttime calls
And again the hunt begins and again the bloodwind calls
By and by again, the morning sun will rise
But the darkness never goes from some men's eyes.
It strolls the sidewalks and it rolls the streets
Stalking turf, dividing up meat.
Nightmare spook, piece of heat, you and me, you and me.
Click, flashblade in ghetto night. Rudies looking for a fight.
Rat cat alley roll them bones. Need that cash to feed that jones
And the politicians throwing stones
Singing ashes, ashes all fall down.
Commissars and pin-striped bosses role the dice
Any way they fall guess who gets to pay the price.
Money green or proletarian gray, selling guns instead of food today.
So the kids they dance, they shake their bones
While the politicians throwing stones
Singing ashes, ashes all fall down.
Heartless powers try to tell us what to think
If the spirit's sleeping, then the flesh is ink.
History's page, it is thusly carved in stone
The future's here, we are it, we are on our own.
If the game is lost then we're all the same
No one left to place or take the blame.
We will leave this place an empty stone
Or this shinning ball of bule we can call our home
So the kids they dance, they shake their bones
While the politicians are throwing stones
Singing ashes, ashes all fall down.
Shipping powders back and forth
Singing "black goes south while white comes north"
And the whole world full of petty wars
Singing "I got mine and you got yours."
And the current fashions set the pace.
Lose your step, fall out of grace.
And the radical he rant and rage, Singing "someone got to turn the page"
And the rich man in his summer home,
Singing "Just leave well enough alone"
But his pants are down, his cover's blown
And the politicians are throwing stones
So the kids they dance they shake their bones
Cause its all too clear we're on our own


Singing.... Ashes Ashes all fall down

MHN said...

What, please, is a Deadhead?

Dreath said...

Someone who saw way too many Grateful Dead concerts ( or perhaps not enough).

Matt said...

I saw hundreds. I had a shoe box full of the ticket stubs, but it got lost in a move. I do though have a decent boot leg collection. Don't use them at all any longer since I have the GD channel on XM Radio.



St Circumstance said...

me too love that channel..

MHN said...

Thank you. I take it that's some kind of young person's musical entertainment ensemble?

Matt said...

It was in 1969.


AustinAnn74 said...

I guess they couldn't find someone even in the same league (beauty-wise) that comes close to Sharon Tate......

St Circumstance said...

Hard to do Ann lol She was a one of a kind type of beauty...

MHN said...

Agreed St C, a true one-off.

If I had to cast a Manson movie I'd have Isabel Lucas as Sharon Tate. Noone will ever look quite like her, but I think Isabel has just about enough.

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2011/11/10/babe-of-the-day-isabel-lucas

MHN said...

Austin Ann, I hope you're doing well. Best wishes from London.

St Circumstance said...

Good call MHN That lady is stunning, and there is a semblance...

Dreath said...

RH: What if HE opened up about the Black / White race WAR and how the Black man would one day be on the top, instead of the bottom ? What IF he explained just who the "PIG" is and WHY it must DIE ?

YOU seem to KNOW who the PIG is. Maybe YOU can help US understand THIS one? (sorry, couldn’t resist)

Oh forget that. I know better then that so I’ll try to answer you.

Who is the pig?

Am I a pig if I am white? Bernard Crowe and Rosemary LaBianca don’t fit this one.

Am I a pig if I am rich? Well, unless we define ‘rich’ pretty broadly it seems like only Abigal Folger fits and no matter how broad we make it I just can’t get Bernard Crowe, Gary Hinman or Donald “Shorty” Shea in that box.

Am I a pig because I am part of ‘the establishment’? This doesn’t net any more we still have Bernard Crowe, Shorty and Gary Hinman.

I am a pig because I’m not with you. In other words if you can’t win my heart or my mind I must be the enemy, the same way a couple million people became ‘gooks’ around the same timeframe. It is much easier to kill a ‘pig’ then to kill Sharon Tate and her unborn child.

Why must the pig die?

The term ‘pig’ simply serves to justify the cruelties Manson and his spawn inflicted on innocent victims. They become dehumanized sacrifices for the utopia that will surely follow whatever demented ‘revolution’ he was after. Others at the time held the same belief.

Not once in the history of the world has a revolutionary movement preaching a path to utopia avoided falling into violence either in the attempt to bring about their revolution or in an effort to silence opposition after it has been sucessful. And not one such movement has ever come close to utopia.

Our own revolution promised nothing more then ‘oportunity’ and incidently was led by the 2% of their times. Of course the 2% back then actually believed they owed something back to society for their good fortune.

To quote one of my favorites: “There is a debt of service due from every man to his country, proportioned to the bounties which nature and fortune have measured to him.”

RH: BUT what IF Charles Manson was ALLOWED to speak back in 70 ?

The jury would have taken even less time to convict him.

PS: I'd vote for Isabel Lucas.

St Circumstance said...

lol

St Circumstance said...

I jsut came up with my next epic post...

watched OJ part 1 for the third time tonight and it finally dawned on me.

the whole purpose is to show how racially divided LA was during his time at USC 1967 and 1968. The entire two hours are about the racial anger rising in the black community and how hard OJ tried to stay outside as he was in the "Hollywood White" environment of USC ( Which by the way is right on the doorstep of the worst part of LA lol)

But.... I never realized that another guy across town may also have been paying attention to the rising tensions in the black community and interpreting them in another way?

St Circumstance said...

I swear to God I gotta quit the beer or weed...

I wrote this post and it never even dawned on me that OJ and Charlie were about half hour away from each other in their primes


MHN said...

Possibly the Col might be able to get her onboard for his Manson movie, Ms Lucas having appeared in one of those diabolical Transformy features he inflicts on the world.

Dreath said...


MHN: "diabolical Transformy features he inflicts on the world"- I just had my wine come out the wrong opening.


Saint: A black or black muslim revolt in 19868-69 'on the radar'- black panthers in gunfights with police in LA in (December 1969) being shot asleep in their beds by police in Chicago, I believe (also December 1969) and several years before here's what Malcolm X had to say (note the "X"):

"A revolution is bloody. Revolution is hostile. Revolution knows no compromise. Revolution overturns and destroys everything that gets in its way. And you, sitting around here like a knot on the wall, saying, "I'm going to love these folks no matter how much they hate me." No, you need a revolution. Whoever heard of a revolution where they lock arms, as Reverend Cleage was pointing out beautifully, singing "We Shall Overcome"? Just tell me. You don't do that in a revolution. You don't do any singing; you're too busy swinging."

Gong from A to B to Manson's lunacy is possible. Where I have the problem is the leap to Manson the prophet to ISIS. Its like the underwear gnomes: underwear + *******= profit.

I wonder if given what's going on this week about two dozen seventy year old hippies all packed up all over the country and drove to Death Valley: "Holy F---! Charlie was right! Where's that G-- damn bottomless pit."

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Dreath (at 8:13 pm) good post.
I've always opined that Frykowski lived much more like a Spahner than an elite. It could have easily been he snorting methedrine with Susan behind Charlie's back. A pig could be open to interpretation, based merely on the desperation of his/her opposer at any given time. One bad day on the stock market could un-pig a lot of people real fast.
Or maybe a pig is nothing more than someone who doesn't give me what I want right here, right now.
Frykowski might be a pig when he lives on Cielo, but if Abigail dumps him and he ends up in Chatsworth, he becomes Bill Vance-in-waiting. A fine line, this pig thing is.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Does a movie about Charlie really need someone to portray Sharon? I guess it will be another cheesy portrayal of the Manson-Tate-Hatami get-together.

Jenn said...

Saint: "Speaking of the wild 60's - I wonder if any of my esteemed older piers here can tell me if there has ever been a year like this, between the politics, world upheaval, and domestic madness- since those turbulant times?"

1968 would be a good candidate.

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

Hey guys, not sure if you're aware of this or not but my Antivirus software is giving me Malware warnings whenever I get on the blog! See:

http://i.imgur.com/EZL6AyW.png

Anyone know if this is actually malicious or not?

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

And by the way, holy shit at the comments here. You all are a delight to read again, absolutely worth the potential malware infection. (And that's the highest compliment you can pay in the Information Age!)

For instance, I've been so steeped in my own bullshit lately I never even thought to step back and look at the latest awfulness in Dallas from this blog's cultural perspective. Shit IS coming down fast. It's Helter Skelter all over America right now, and it doesn't look pretty from over here. I'm wishing you all (ALL OF YOU) the best, I really am. Stay safe!

St Circumstance said...

Thanks Jen!!


Vermouth as well :)

Robert Hendrickson said...

YES - current events do seem to be more relevant when considering the Manson case.

AND yes, it does seem quite a stretch to go from a snot-nosed punk-ass KID to an EVIL genius, mastermind of the final Battle of Armageddon, BUT hey, how about going from an out-a-work carpenter to a bully, who physically assaults and throws "PIGS" outta the temple, to the most recognized name in world history - worshiped by gabillions of followers through-out and beyond the plant "Earth."

ONLY problem is: Is "Pig" the appropriate label here ?

FUNNY - regarding American politics - the Presidential QUESTION will likely boil down to:

WHO is the REAL "Pig'" Donald or Hillary ? AND why must the "pig" die ? Cause 'fried' bacon is the BEST ingredient used by professional cooks to spice-up and otherwise boring meal. So WHY is a tasty meal important: Cause it excites the BIG head, NOT unlike sex does it for the "little" head. AND (2) happy heads - well, that's as good as it gets !

Matt said...

Vermouth, I KNEW it would be Avast. That program is a menace. It throws up false-positives all the time. I'm doing battle with them over one of my servers. I think they will wind up with a class action lawsuit soon.


grimtraveller said...

MHN said...

You're right, grim: We were no better than the Nazis

"Better" doesn't come into it.

class ravaged should really be hyphenated

While I can't say that I learn something new every day, I'm happy to report that learning hasn't stopped. I'll be certain that old hyphen finds it's way in there next time. Mind you, I have no memory of ever having written "class ravaged" before. ☺

And it's n'est-ce pas, not n'est-pas

Hey, I send language up all the time, have done ever since I were a lad and I'd mockingly 'translate' Beatle lyrics into French. I remember telling the kids at school that "Elle aime vous oui, oui oui x3" was the chorus of "She loves you." My teacher pointed out that it was wrong but I didn't care. My way rolled off the tongue better. I'm always messing with language; it's the sound, not the spelling !

Would've looked so sophisticated

I'm about as sophisticated as........an early morning gas boiler explosion.

Robert Hendrickson said...

AND hey - YOU Across the POND Gang - speak English so the rest of us can understand WHY you are NOW grumbling about "giving back" to the GREEKS, who so generously GAVE us THEIR Democracy and Baklava, back in the day

Over the years in the aftermath of elections, there's usually some grizzling by those on the losing side so it's not really that much of a surprise that in something like a referendum, there'll be that, in spades. That said, I've found the entire episode fascinating, more entertaining than the football. I recorded a whole load of debates in the weeks before the vote but my intention was to watch them after the result was in and some of the dust had settled so I could watch them with the knowledge of how specific points and promises made actually have panned out in the aftermath.

TomG said...

Here is what I think. Whatever you say on the Internet, no matter how carefully you crafted the words, to persuade others without being offensive...... the next 14 of 16 responses will be fuck you asshole.

At some point you just say, well, they see things their way. Good luck.

Cielodrive.com said...

So true

TomG said...

I thought you would reply F U. So I am at least ahead. But time is almost always unfriendly.

grimtraveller said...

MHN said...

There was a period when Britain, alone among meaningful powers, was standing alone against Hitler. That's history. It's not alternative. You were wrong

Until the lions have their own storytellers, history will always glorify the hunter.

Aside from the fact that that is not the point that Farflung made nor the point to which I replied, your eagerness to pounce upon points I make prevents you from thinking through the points you use to try to counter my points.
Britain had France standing with them all the way against Germany. They both together declared support to Poland, they both declared war against Hitler on the same day. It is a fact that Australia and New Zealand did so too. With an irony that has to rank among 20th century history's most striking, South Africa did 3 days later. The point is that even when Britain went first, we were not the only ones standing up to Hitler. We were also trying pretty much everything to avoid war. In point of fact, you could even argue that we made things easier for Hitler by the way we shat on Czechoslovakia. We advised them to give in to the Germans !
It is all fascinating history, full of twists, turns and convolutions, so much so that there has long been disagreement among various historians as to exactly when "the war" started and when it ended because there were so many players and scenes of engagement.
In almost all the pre~war shenanigans that demonstrate any moves to stand against Hitler, the French stood with us and Britain, with things like the Munich agreement and the naval treaty we made with the Nazis {which didn't include the French}, needs to be careful about blowing out war trumpet too loud.
Because now, the lions have their own storytellers.....in the interest of balance.

Until the lions have their own storytellers, history will always glorify the hunter

For many people, "Helter Skelter" was/is the first intro into the Manson saga in any major detail. But it is written exclusively from the perspective of the hunter so even though a few nice things get said about the lion and his cubs, essentially the lion is the bad guy. But the books that came out from around 1988 have balanced this topic out big time. In fact, we've heard so much from the lion's camp {and I include in that any ex Family members} that "Helter Skelter" and the tomes before it now have to take their place among all the books, articles, interviews, films and transcripts in order to to have the relevance of their contents justified. And that is not a bad thing.

St Circumstance said...

Tom G trust me. I'll never say FU to you for anything you say on my posts. You must be a happy guy by the way ....

Lulu got her votes. You finally get to cheer for a bit. :)

St Circumstance said...

By the way no matter how many times they say FU to me lol

I still think Charlie belongs where he is
Deb Tate is ok with me
Hester Skelter MAY still be real motive

See I never learn lol :)

MHN said...

And he's back, after 2 days on Wikipedia, cherry-picking and distorting. The man who must must must must absolutely always must have the last word. Even when the conversation has long-since moved on from that subject matter, his carefully researched and highly slanted rebuttal must still be inflicted on all, because grim has to prove himself right, it matters so much.

We all moved on, grim, get over it.

MHN said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
consensusinidem said...



MHN said...

"And he's back, after 2 days on Wikipedia, cherry-picking and distorting. The man who must must must must absolutely always must have the last word. Even when the conversation has long-since moved on from that subject matter, his carefully researched and highly slanted rebuttal must still be inflicted on all, because grim has to prove himself right, it matters so much...."


Beautifully summed up!!!

TomG said...

Dear Mr Saint

Actually, I'm not a happy guy. Lulu has served 45 years in a California correctional Institute for one bad decision in other wise gifted and enlightened life.

Your creeps. Inbred,hostile, nothing to contribute creeps. Otherwise I'm proud to be Amurican.

orwhut said...

I read all of the comments about people being pigs then went to the news and there was the fat news director accused of sexual harassment. Hummm...

grimtraveller said...

TomG said...

Here is what I think. Whatever you say on the Internet, no matter how carefully you crafted the words, to persuade others without being offensive...... the next 14 of 16 responses will be fuck you asshole.

At some point you just say, well, they see things their way


That's only true in some cases. While I've had my fair share of jib from people online, the overwhelming majority have not been in the slightest bit "FU~ish." I've had some seriously heated debates with people who were passionate about defending or putting forth their case and I've no doubt irritated people to Saturn's rings and beyond but they've remained cool.
Sure, I can be sarcastic, it's part of my humour mechanism and I find sarcasm funny. I am essentially a gentleman, both on the road and in Cyberspace. If I cut you up on the Motorway, I'll smile and wave, just to show you there's no animosity involved.......☺
If I disagree with something that someone has said, whether it's a WW2 major league historian or someone that has spoken face to face with Charles Manson or someone that claims to have been Vincent Bugliosi's mistress, I'm going to make my points.
But I refuse to be rude and I have no intention of being offensive. If some are offended by what I may say, I'll happily discuss it but there's little I can do to prevent it, short of being a lurker and not a contributor.

Robert Hendrickson said...

ONE could be a typical Hendrickson "mental-puzzle"

I remember some years ago reading something that Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull said about progressive rock. He was questioning why it had to be accessible to people and I thought it was such a daft point to make because he was adamant it needed to be hard for people to 'get.' If you make music that, because of who you are and what comes out, it has inaccessible aspects to it, then I can live with that. I have lots of stuff like that. But to go out of your way to make it so just to make it unnecessarily hard for the punters seems like playing the martyr to me. Johnny Rotten in his autobiography says a similar thing about the Sex Pistols' first LP, how he had wanted it to be completely unlistenable. Fortunately, Glen Matlock had a hand in writing 10 of the songs and Chris Thomas {the same guy as helped produce parts of the White album and was there for the madcap recording of "Helter Skelter"} knew how to produce records. So it remains both wonderfully and fearfully made, to borrow a biblical quote.

I don't ANSWER your "dearest" questions HERE, because I am here to read, listen and THINK about what YOU folks have to say

That's noble but if you have the kind of information that you sometimes hint at that could edify those of us here that like to read, listen and think, not giving us that info doesn't aid our reading, listening or thinking. Neither would giving us the info mean we would no longer read, listen and think. In fact, it would probably open up new vistas, kind of like the way George's book has done.

BUT here is a relevant THOUGHT: IF Charles Manson actually ignited Helter Skelter in order to cause an END to the Vietnam WAR......

......then it would have been as glorious a failure as the reason that he did try to ignite it {if one goes with that motive}. If all the protests, splits and vets decrying the situation didn't stop the war, murder was hardly going to be a front runner, even where no sense made sense.

St Circumstance said...

Well Tom - she did get some good news at least but I understand it's not completely satisfying.

Anyway all the best :)

grimtraveller said...

MHN said...

As always, when the squid is challenged it pumps out as much ink as it can to cloud the waters

Damn smart creature. Tastes good too.

Maximum number of words used? Check! Yet managed to say literally nothing with them? Check! While conveying an air of patronising authority and subtle thoughtfulness?

I'd probably say the same thing if I didn't understand the point being made and didn't really want to.

I know of several historians from former colonies who state that despite celebrating and treasuring independence, exposure to British norms and institutions is in retrospect the best thing that happened to their countries

That's not unusual. I know of a number of people who feel the same thing. For a long while, my Dad was one. At the same time, I know people that lived through the colonial period and do not feel that way at all. You get that with Iraq. Some people were joyous when Saddam Hussein got toppled and still are. Others still lament the day he got toppled, not because they were supporters, anything but actually, but because the scenario they find themselves in today is worse than it was back then. Does that make the invasion a good thing or a bad thing ?
Even the Children of Israel looked back on the slavery in Egypt that they had cried out to God to rescue them from, with doe eyes, wishing to go back there. People can be like that. God didn't get pissed with them for no reason.

especially when compared to certain neighbouring countries whose colonial history was far more brutal and genocidal than anything Britain ever imposed on its empire

Nigeria didn't even exist before Britain colonized that region and made it a country by cobbling together lots of different peoples that weren't exactly bosom buddies.....
Divide and rule is pretty brutal, although I will say that France's colonial conduct both before and more markedly, after WW2 makes their participation heavily ironic too. They did the right thing against Germany but the irony is crushing.

TomG said...

Some kids in 1969 got high as kites at the same time the US thought they could make capitalists out of Vietnamese. But why talk an idiot out of a bad idea. They will just come back and make a capitalist out of an Iraqi.

grimtraveller said...

Kevin Marx said...

Whatever the benefits of british norms and institutions (and I agree countries did progress in some ways) you have to weigh that against the actual history, which included an incredible amount of brutality and bloodshed

I think it's worth being mindful of the reality that out of something that is not good, some good can actually come. From where I stand, naturally I'd say that God weaves that hand to direct some benefit out of peoples' drastic experiences. That doesn't mean that the original move {for the purposes of this strand of the discussion, colonization} was a good one. It was never intended for the benefit of the indigenous peoples upon whom it was imposed. It's a bit like kidnapping a woman, forcing her to be your doxy but giving her lots of fine clothes, good food and a couple of ladies in waiting and not beating her.
For me, it's a no brainer; one can see how wonderful the British Empire was by all the countries that were prepared to {and did} fight and resist it's continuation where they were concerned.
I can compare it to the Family insofar as for some of the members, good things did eventually come out of a period that was not necessarily flowing with positivity towards the society from which it sprang. People like Pat & Leslie have helped women in jail, even Tex and Bruce have generally positive, Clem has made a real go of his life and the greatest irony yet, was that of Susan actually helping to save the life of an inmate that had slit her wrists in a suicide attempt. Even the ADAs that were trying to prevent them from getting parole frequently commented on the good stuff they were doing inside.
But few in their right mind would say the murders were worth it.

I wonder about the historians who say that it was the best thing that happened to their countries - how many of them really considered the cruelty their ancestors suffered just so they could benefit from British institutions

I asked my Dad about this many, many times and we had some interesting chats about it. In a 'country' like Nigeria, tribalism wrecked the place five years in and between independence in 1960 and 1976 there had been 3 coups, at least 2 assassinations and a civil war. Corruption set in to the extent that you honestly couldn't get anything done without bribery. Even when I lived there in the late 70s/early 80s, you couldn't even go visit your sister at school without bribing the gate man with a cigarette or even half a cigarette. Jobs went to those with deep pockets or who would guarantee a side swiping return on 'monies' and it was in that context, having lived in England for 24 years at the time that my Dad lamented at Britain's exit. But he also remembered how it had been for him in the 40s and 50s as a man with communist leanings and how he had concluded that colonialism was wrong and had to go. I always felt he should have written a book because his journey was incredible in it's scope, sadness and eventual non resolution. He really was caught between a rock and a hard place.

TomG said...

Was the Dallas shooter legally in possession of an assault weapon that killed 5 police officers and wounded for life many others?

He is your Vet. The only ones you esteem more than police. Not even Sandy Hook can be this bad,

How does it feel?

TomG said...

Somewheres Black people got to accept they going to shot once in a while by nervous police. Its a numbers game.

Black people have higher testosterone levels and between you and me, young black males are more violent than white males. Keep that as our secret.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

If the Dallas incident cannot be satisfactorily explained, wait 2 weeks and try again at the next shoot-'em-up. In the current fearful society, everyone will get a chance to test their hypothesis. No shortage of opportunities.

grimtraveller said...

TomG said...

Some kids in 1969 got high as kites

I do think that the drug contribution has been seriously cast to one side and buried in lazy sensationalism by many that have written about or commented on the Manson Family. Drugs certainly played their part.
But it was as a contributor, not a cause.

consensusinidem said...

the biggest pedantic know-it-all on the TLB blogs

Define "biggest." ☺ ☺

MHN said...

I only emerged from my cave because Farflung had said something I thought interesting

So you thought you'd join the conversation. Funny how that works, innit ?

St Circumstance said...

Any of you guys/gals over in England hear of this Movie when it was playing??
I imagine someone would have said something if they saw it, but was it even something that any of you even were aware was playing?


I'm not really a great cinema goer but in my job I drive past or deliver stuff close to quite a few cinemas in central London that tend to put on fringe films rather than the mainstream biggies and I never came across it. I may of course have missed it but there are certain things that are likely to catch my eye and a film with a title like "House of Manson" is one of them, even if it hadn't been about Charlie.
I much prefer books and documentaries to be honest. I never was interested in seeing the 70s "Helter Skelter" but I did see it 3 or 4 years back by chance late one night on one of those stations that one trips into by chance. It was on over two days and I thought it was awful. And the dramatic reconstructions in that 2009 documentary on TLB was almost as bad as were the dramatizations on "Born to kill ?" Actually, now I think about it, biopics aren't my thing at all. I can't think of a single one I've seen that I'd watch again. But your description of this one did sound....promising.

Robert Hendrickson said...

In a certain way Manson SAW the Great American Empire also "falling" from its perch

Perhaps, but not with any great sadness about his noble brow. America was going to fall and it would serve 'em right, if those that listened to him are to be believed. Not only that, but after having been kicked about and shat upon by the great American empire, he'd end up as one of the main benefactors of the state of play that remained.

Shorty's pistols said...

Grim is a reader and plows thru lots of transcripts and the like

I do try to take on board the varying viewpoints surrounding this case and the variety of books, interviews and transcripts have enabled me to come to some conclusions, many of which run against the general TLB positions.
For example, Vincent Bugliosi has never been able to say why the killers picked the LaBianca house. Now, I'm surprised he always said he didn't know why the LaBiancas were killed, naturally it never really turns up in his book other than to talk of some kind of bloodlust {which I would think applied far more to Tex than Charlie}. The trial transcripts yield very little of note. But there are documents out there that enable one to put together a cogent case together for why. Given that Harold True provided one of the major possibilities in his 1970 interview with Bugliosi, it's amazing Bugliosi didn't put it together. Fast forward to Charlie's 2011 interview with Vanity Fair and George's book, then light can be shed. It may be totally wrong but in true Robert Hendrickson fashion, it's something to think about.


grimtraveller said...

consensusinidem said...

tackling the biggest pedantic know-it-all on the TLB blogs

Define "all." ☺☺☺

MHN said...

If you want to know what I find tedious about the guy

Actually folks, Emmers and I aren't really always at loggerheads. We're quite close really.
We live on the same continent....

Robert Hendrickson said...

How come you folks get to "vote" yourselves OFF the reservation and WE get stuck with a system that ONLY pretends to be democratic ?

I guess even parliamentary politicians are people too. Once in a while, something is put up for the people to decide as opposed to the members of parliament that we elect to "carry out stuff on our behalf, as our representatives."
We had a referendum about 4 or 5 years ago on whether the voting system should change from the current "first past the post" system, Wales has had a couple since 1997, Scotland too and Northern Ireland also had one over the Good Friday agreement. Every so often someone pushes for us to have one on capital punishment.
I suspect that generally, governments will put up referendums that they believe they will win but for a long time, I've suspected that our PM was a Euro sceptic on the sly and isn't exactly heartbroken about the result. I have nothing rational to offer in defence of that. That said, when certain political biographies come out years later, sometimes one's eyebrows raise higher than usual when one reads about some of what was really going on that seemed utterly at odds with what seemed to be going on. Even Nelson Mandela's runs counter to the picture presented at the time.

Farflung said...

What I opined about the British during WWII was genuine and sincere

I wasn't maligning your sincerity.

They literally saved the world

That however, is fanciful at best.

It would have been far easier for them to align with the NAZIS

As horrible as it seems, there was some of that. Ask the Czechs.

but the average subject resisted

Prior to the early 1960s and the changes that came with the ending of national service like increased and available travel, university education for the working class, television showing more of the world and people actually being able to own their houses and a number of other things, the average citizen did pretty much as they were told. Just like the colonies of the empire.
An old man I know who grew up in the East End slums told me how he and his school chums used to line up and march on empire day and how some of them had no shoes. There came a time when they began to question whether blind allegiance to Queen/King and country was really such a smart thing. From the mid 60s, the phrase "generation gap" became a pretty common one.
But hey, all I'm saying is that there is more than one way to view some of the statements made about WW2 and I just don't share your view but unlike my thoughts on our PM's Euro slyness, I can back up why.

MHN said...

Regardless of what anyone thinks is 'true', when is some filmmaker going to make a Manson movie that goes big on race war, instead of just treating it as a whacked-out nutty drug-fuelled pretext?
I'd love to see the idea given due weight and treated with 'respect'


I think that's a good point but it's not hard see why it hasn't really happened and that first sentence contains the reason why; what one thinks is true is the central nub of where one goes with Charlie's race war and you can't delve into a race war and stop there without following it to the endgame. And it seems that there are many for whom it is simply not credible.


grimtraveller said...

MHN said..

It could be part of that fabled 'conversation' the US keeps demanding of itself

According to David R. Williams, although they were at opposite ends of the scale in terms of change in America, both Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, as well as writers like James Baldwin and revolutionaries like Stokely Carmichael, asserted that the very innards of White America were racist, regardless of whether they had marched, been arrested, beaten, sprayed and jailed with Black people during the various protests. That put a lot of backs up and shocked people but more tellingly, swathes of Black people the world over believed and still believe it. Most Black people I know believe it or at least don't reject it.
I suspect there are many Black people that won't be satisfied until White people in general concur with that notion of racism and even then there wouldn't be real satisfaction.
With that in mind, could the conversation happen ?

St Circumstance said..

Speaking of the wild 60's - I wonder if any of my esteemed older peers here can tell me if there has ever been a year like this, between the politics, world upheaval, and domestic madness- since those turbulant times?

Sometimes, many currents appear to meet up at a particular time and get dizzy but a bit like with WW2, I find the lead up to be what's really interesting, all those happenings and sub plots that go into the pot that make one wonder how different the eventual Kaboom would have been had such and such not taken place.
From a UK perspective, that late 70s/early 80s period with the guv'ment collapsing here, our first female PM, the Carter administration floundering, Reagan getting in, Russia vs Afghanistan, 4 USSR leaders within 3 years, the olympic boycotts, 3 million unemployed, riots across the country, to name but a few things, was pretty hairy.

consensusinidem said..

the biggest pedantic know-it-all on the TLB blogs

Rather than go into a Halle Berry style acceptance speech, let me just say that it means so much more when an award like this comes from one of my dear fellow bloggers so,
Thank you, very much appreciated...

Shorty's pistols said..

This is just a sample of '68 events....something big or new was jumping off every few week in '68

I started school in January '68. That was trauma right there !

Dreath said...

If Charlie had been a Deadhead, instead of a Beatlemaniac no one would have died

On the other hand, he had his first acid trip at one of the Dead's gigs and we all know where that helped to lead him.....

Robert Hendrickson said...

BUT what IF Charles Manson was ALLOWED to speak back in 70 ?

He was and he did and the transcript is there for all to see. Interestingly, among his many statements is "I've lived in your tomb that you built..and how many other sons do you think you have in there? You have many sons in there, many, many sons in there, most of them are black and they are angry. They are mad, and they are mad at me. I look and I say, 'Why are you mad at me?' He said, 'I am mad at you because of what your father did.'"

What if HE opened up about the Black / White race WAR and how the Black man would one day be on the top, instead of the bottom ? What IF he explained just who the "PIG" is and WHY it must DIE ?

That would have been tantamount to saying "Bugliosi was absolutely right. Gas chamber, here we come." There was absolutely no reason for Charlie to admit to murder, even to warn the larger society. Would you ?
Also, given that he was in the clink, to go about talking about HS and young loves in the desert and hiding in a underground paradise and Blacks taking over and not being able to handle it and the Family ruling the world, in the reality of prison, that was just embarrassing, not to mention dangerous. Who was going to listen to that ? Islam, Jesus and Hare Krishna had some legitimacy in jail. Helter skelter only had legitimacy to the Family.

grimtraveller said...

MHN said...

And he's back.......We all moved on, grim, get over it

I believe you. You moved on so far that you had to come back.
They always come back.......

grimtraveller said...

MHN said...

Even when the conversation has long-since moved on from that subject matter...

When the administrators of this blog declare a topic closed, then it is closed.
In the meantime, ssshhh ! ☺ ☺ ☺☺ ☺ ☺ {You can resist my charms, you know}.

consensusinidem said...

Beautifully summed up!!!

Just like Irving Kanarek's summing up, you know, the ones that were so beautiful, Charlie got 'guilty' and the gas chamber.
Some of us can do without such beauty.

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

Thanks Matt! I've had problems with Avast being overzealous in the past. Otherwise though it's served me very well. I'll just ignore the warnings... and maybe bring a lawsuit down on YOU if I ever DO get infected! (Just kidding, of course, tee hee)
s, storm's a-comin'!

MHN said...

Wow. Really making yourself look like an asshole now grim. Doesn't Jesus ever tell you to shut the fuck up and stop embarrassing him?

Robert Hendrickson said...

Here's a little homework assignment: Will someone please find where "Pigs" are referred to as the 'rich' people, other than by Vincent Bugliosi.

Me THINKS Mr. "B" might have really put another one over on ALL of us.

consensusinidem said...


MHN said...

Wow. Really making yourself look like an asshole now grim. Doesn't Jesus ever tell you to shut the fuck up and stop embarrassing him?


MHN, he used to be on a site called homerecording.com where he was seen as a joke figure.

orwhut said...

Robert Hendrickson said... Here's a little homework assignment: Will someone please find where "Pigs" are referred to as the 'rich' people, other than by Vincent Bugliosi.

Me THINKS Mr. "B" might have really put another one over on ALL of us.

Robert,
I did a quick search and didn't find anything. You just might be right. HOWEVER, I came up on another couple of the six degrees of Helter Skelter.
Someone named Erich FROMM (not Fromme but, close) said, "Greed is a BOTTOMLESS PITT which exhaust the person in an endless effort to satisfy the need without ever reaching satisfaction."
It'll be interesting to see what the smart kids find when they do their homework.

penny lane said...

Lol...Thanks chaps...I have had a crap day..but after reading all the banter/bickering i feel better. Such an articulate bunch ! PLUS MHN got shussed by Grim...OMG !

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

Didn't the girls sing the 'Piggies' song by the Beatles at one point? Then again, that factoid was from THE FAMILY by Ed Sanders, I'm pretty sure, so that might well be bullshit too.

It's weird seeing so many BLM still refer to the cops as 'pigs,' how that language is still in currency in activist circles. So many of them (and the campus Social Justice Warriors) seem absolutely desperate to reenact the '60s Civil Rights/Counterculture demonstrations since they missed them the first time around. Which isn't to minimise the problems black communities are experiencing, but they're a lot more multifaceted than the media narrative of White Patriarchal Pig Cops = Baddie, Downtrodden African-American = Goodie.

This whole social upheaval thing in the US right now is just WEIRD. You have people coming out and protesting the Establishment screaming about "Racism! Sexism! Homophobia! Bigotry!" while the same Establishment (the government, media, academia & corporations) near-unanimously preaches & enforces the modern virtues of Tolerance, Acceptance, Diversity, Multiculturalism, Political Correctness, Identity Politics... all hangover ideals from that segment of the hippy/counterculture generation who brought them into the Establishment when THEY matured and grew into Yuppies! You've got young millennials protesting a boomer government which AGREES with them and laid the foundations for the millennial values- but they're protesting because that government doesn't agree with them ENOUGH. We need MORE authoritarian censorship of people criticising immigration policies! Fry 'em like bacon!

And on the other hand you have Trump supporters and the rising alt-right, who are opposed to the Establishment- and to me they look like the NEW counterculture, because they're fighting the values pushed by the Establishment, BLM, and SJWs. And this new counterculture is right-wing, conservative, cultural libertarian! The left-wing groups protesting the Establishment go out and do the Establishment's dirty work for it by rioting in the streets and beating the shit out of Trump supporters, and then claim THEY'RE oppressed and riot some more!

Does this make sense to anyone? I think I'm rambling. I need a lie down. Wasn't I talking about pigs? Oink Oink

http://i.imgur.com/Sk8OIjw.jpg

consensusinidem said...


grimtraveller said...


"Just like Irving Kanarek's summing up, you know, the ones that were so beautiful, Charlie got 'guilty' and the gas chamber.
Some of us can do without such beauty."


Irving Kanarek's standard of summing up is totally irrelevant to what MHN said to you.

orwhut said...

The words "bigger piggies" are as close as "Piggies" comes to mentioning rich people. I guess they're the same thing.

Cielodrive.com said...

"MHN, he used to be on a site called homerecording.com where he was seen as a joke figure."

Are you following Grim around, Consensusinidem?

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

I am, but that's only coz he owes me money. Lousy deadbeat.

Cielodrive.com said...

Vermouth, are you Consensusinidem?

Robert Hendrickson said...

ORWHUT: I found ONE reference to Pigs being cops, BUT nothing connecting "pigs" to rich folks.

So where and how did Bugliosi make a "connection" ? I think HE created a connection with
"rich folks of Beverly Hills", which had always been a kind'a joke / sarcasm label.

As I have said before, sometimes it's what you can't FIND that reveals the most significant clues.

NOW I find it VERY interesting / scary that WHITE America is so upset over a few COPS being killed by a "black man" and BLACK America is so upset over a few BLACK people being KILLED by "white" COPS. IF this was to have happened in the 1960s - well maybe YOU could call it racism, BUT today, I THINK it's more like a "revolution." NOW, all WE need is a "bad guy" (Trump) and a new kind of hero (Clinton.) AND a duet by "Taylor Swift & Chris Brown"

BTW: In Helter Skelter, Bugliosi said the Blacks would be NO longer able to "rule" and would hand the reins of power back to Whitey. So WHUT is Obama going to do in January of next year ? Maybe Mr. "B" was the real visionary !

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

Nah, no idea who that is. I'm just foolin' around. :)

And as for Mr. H's comments, we're all fucked if Hillary is the Hero Of Our Story. Jesus wept.

St Circumstance said...

Apparently on his show last night, Sean Hannity was asking a line of questions to protesters at a rally which some felt was trying to push the conversation towards racism where it wasn't existing. He kept asking the black protesters how they felt about the opposition referring to them as "Pigs in blankets", but none of the protesters he kept asking had ever heard the reference.

This morning on Morning Joy on MSNBC, someone accused Sean Hannity of trying to incite "A Racial War".

My how easy we throw that around these days lol

Matt said...

What I have seen happen in my lifetime is the ability to compromise politically slip away with more and more people. On the right hand we have Tea Party types and on the left the Feel The Bern people. Neither side seems willing to compromise on anything.

I agree more philosophically with the Bernie people, but cripes it's over! Hillary won. Get over it! Tea Partyers, it's better to get something than nothing!

The right is more than willing to shut down the government in a temper tantrum while the Bernie people are willing to withhold their vote from the presumptive nominee, even if it means getting Cheez-Doodle Face elected.

Now, this polarization has come to people willing to gun others down rather than to listen to them.

It's getting time for me to take a child and go to the desert...




Robert Hendrickson said...

SAINT: I think you got it backwards, the Protestors were saying "Pigs in a Blanket" referring to the cops.

AND the other day I heard HIM questioning / raising the issue about Black Panthers, Black Muslims and Nation of Islam. MY heart STOPPED and I thought: is HE trying to help ME sell my MANSON stuff ?

I don't want to make light of this VERY serious matter, BUT I think I hear the CHICKENS roosting on MY roof. I've been in the Deep South in the early 1960s and I've even been in the Military Surlpus Store where the infamous SIGN "Our guns come with a Nigger back guarantee" hung.

IF I were a COP - and ( I was almost eliminated by THEM) - in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, I think I would get down before the REAL 'roosting' begins. CM wasn't just rapping about Dixie.


St Circumstance said...

Yeah you are right Mr H. Sorry lol watched it catching my morning pre beach buz :)

Shorty's pistols said...

RH, the term "Pig" referencing rich establishment types predates the Bug and his motive creation by a few years. Pig referring to the establishment was used by the radical left, especially in the leftist underground newspapers of the time. I had heard it used to describe cops before that, but it was used interchangeably by the counter culture by the time Charlie and his crew were at play in '68 & '69.

St Circumstance said...

My uncle used to have a picture hanging in his living room of a cop sitting in a diner buying lunch for a young runaway sitting on the stool next to him with that classic bag tied the stick on the ground between them ..

Under it was the word pig with an acronym

Pride
Integity
Guys

I grew up in a family of cops so I know a lot of the bashing is deserved.

But I also know you can't toss everyone into generalized groups because of their jobs. Their are some really great people out there in law enforcement.

Just like all hippies are not lazy no good bums - or killers lol

Not all cops are the guy in Mr H avatar either.

Thank god for all of us and me in particular lol

:)

St Circumstance said...

Guts not guys lol. This Phone sucks.

St Circumstance said...

Hey I'm not offended when people say that 90 per cent of them are deuchebags because I know from personal experience that 90 of them truly are

:)

ziggyosterberg said...


Grim did some of his best work on home recording.net. "Cassette Tape Repair : Pinky Finger vs Pencil" is Grim at the very top of his game.

grimtraveller said...

MHN said...

Doesn't Jesus ever tell you to shut the fuck up and stop embarrassing him?

He's all heart & ears and willing to answer if you'd care to ask.


Robert Hendrickson said...

Here's a little homework assignment: Will someone please find where "Pigs" are referred to as the 'rich' people, other than by Vincent Bugliosi.
Me THINKS Mr. "B" might have really put another one over on ALL of us


You were making the point at the end of last year that John Lennon had gone on the record {no pun intended} about his use of the word "pig[s]" to refer to the police. In response to this question you asked {So HOW & WHY did the Prosecutor convince a JURY of highly educated men and women to believe that "PIG" instead refers to RICH folks ?}, I gave this reply which I think still holds up:

Well, the Beatles were a treasure trove of creative writers of both similar and divergent opinions. George Harrison says of "Piggies" that it was "social comment. I was stuck for one line in the middle until my mother came up with the lyric 'what they need is a damn good whacking !' [a damn good throttling] which is a nice simple way of saying they need a good hiding. It needed to rhyme with 'backing', 'lacking' and had absolutely nothing to do with American policemen or Californian shagnasties !" {a reference to the Family}.
One can see from Leslie Van Houten in her December '69 interview with Marvin Part saying "and 'Pig' was the white ~ the white businessman who hated his neighbor, couldn’t look at his neighbor with love, who was going to get it in the end" that she's picked up on the Harrison end of the spectrum rather than the Lennon end, that 'pig' referred to straight society and in her estimation, well off white straight society.
'Pig' was a term that had more than one application on both sides of the Atlantic {it could mean sexist, for example}, depending on who was using it. The prosecutor simply needed to bring out what had been obvious to the Family members since 1968.

Something that occurred to me today is this; even if the entire universe used the term 'pig[s]' to refer to the police, why is that in any way important if the Family didn't ? There's this great song by Nazz on the 1969 "Nazz Nazz" LP called "Meridian Leeward" about a pig that becomes a human policeman and it's very clearly an anti cop & establishment song and gives an interesting insight into how the term was used by those in the counterculture of the time.
But though Charlie had long hair and a beard, he still saw himself as apart from much of that scene even though he could flow fairly easily within it. He seems to have often blurred the demarcation lines between symbolic and literal word meanings and used words that were common to others in ways that took his fancy at that given moment. So it makes abundant sense that the way he and the Family used to the words 'pig' or 'piggies' would not only be interchangeable, but different to the way others were using them at the time. Bugliosi simply relayed what came to him from others {like Al Springer} in order to secure his goal ~ a conviction.

penny lane said...

but after reading all the banter/bickering....

For me, it's definitely banter. Sometimes with an unmistakable edge, though.




The boy wonder said...

Time gentleman please, now can you all please drink up and go home.

Matt said...

You sit there a-crying, crying in your beer
You think you got troubles, my friend listen here
Don't tell me your troubles, I've got enough of my own
Be thankful you're living, drink up and go home
I'm fresh out of prison, six years in the pen
Lost my wife and family, no one to call friend
Don't tell me your troubles, I've got enough of my own
Be thankful you're living, drink up and go home

grimtraveller said...

consensusinidem said...

Irving Kanarek's standard of summing up is totally irrelevant to what MHN said to you

Not if I make a connection with it, mate. And I did.

orwhut said...

The words "bigger piggies" are as close as "Piggies" comes to mentioning rich people. I guess they're the same thing

"Piggies" wasn't specifically about rich people per se because by the time Harrison wrote it, he himself was rich and the Beatles in any case were a little more subtle than that. In the song though, he conflates straight society {which could have included the working class} with the establishment who, though rich like him, were the "wrong" kind of rich and were seen as those that just wanted to keep the status quo going that he wanted to see change. His feelings in the song are markedly different to Charlie's appropriation of the song's spirit.
It's one thing for a millionaire 25 year old to sing that the establishment need to change their ways. It's another thing altogether if a man who says he ate out of garbage cans to stay out of jail decides that they're going to change their ways.

Cielodrive.com said...

Are you following Grim around, Consensusinidem?

I was a regular contributor to Homerecording.com from the end of 2009 to the end of 2014. For the most part, I had a grand old time, lots of banter and learned some interesting things. We used to have some fearsome debates that went on for weeks ! I had tons of contact with loads of people over the years and I can't for the life of me remember Con. Perhaps they went by a different name that I would remember if they said what it was.

ziggyosterberg said...

Grim did some of his best work on home recording.net. "Cassette Tape Repair : Pinky Finger vs Pencil" is Grim at the very top of his game

Ah, heady times.
While I don't recall that specific thread, I probably said 'bic pen' or some such !

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

Nah, no idea who that is. I'm just foolin' around. :)

In that case, I'm keeping the money !

St Circumstance said...

This morning on Morning Joy on MSNBC, someone accused Sean Hannity of trying to incite "A Racial War"

I've long thought this was an interesting line from Bugliosi & Gentry's book ; "That Manson foresaw a war between the blacks and the whites was not fantastic. Many people believe that such a war may someday occur." I remember seeing a film called "The Spook that sat by the door" that even addressed a similar theme. The film was from '73 but it was from a book that Sam Greenlee wrote in '69. That notion had been gathering ground in the USA for a long time so Charles Manson wasn't unique in that respect. His uniqueness on the subject lay along lines that much of the present day TLBers have pretty much rejected.


Farflung said...

Apparently the Dallas shooter wrote "RB" on a wall in blood while trying to trigger a race war. Of course he used the latest Youtube shootings as a Strawman-Aunt Sally.

The Louisiana death involved a former felon, and sex offender, to which many call irrelevant. Really?

The law of unintended consequences may be in play. Louisiana has a specific law about certain felonies, and gun possession which could land one in prison for seven and a half years... Hard labor.

The suspect knows they are a felon, knows they are an RSO, knows they have a gun in their pocket, and knows the consequence of virtually any police interaction.

The sex offender felon law, combined with the 1968 gun control law has paradoxically created a formula for instant escalation.

What expectations would one have of a person, who knows they are facing years of hard labor in Angola prison?

1. Go peacfully and comply with police.

2. Run Forrest RUN!!!

3. Resist, resist, resist.

4. Fight, grab the gun and toss it or use it (technically it doesn't matter cuz you are going to jail, or a morgue).

Well is this just how everyone hoped these laws would work out? Perhaps some more laws should be legislated to buttress the laws which facilitate situations which places the crook into a desperate situation, which has many viewing him as having done "nothing wrong".

From 1968 to present, a complex weave of causal associations has to be analyzed, or a simplistic solution will be suggested, which may amplify the next event(s).

Robert Hendrickson said...

YES Farflung and in California we have the 3 strikes law which can put YOU back in prison FOREVER. Case in point: Leandro Andrea 50 years for shoplifting $170 worth of Disney video cassettes. U.S. Supreme Court UPHELD.

IF he was in the Middle East, the worst he would get is his HANDS chopped OFF.

In Los Angeles we have MANY traffic stops that end in 100 mile an hour car chases, but they have become the BEST entertainment on our local TV.

AND of course, nationally, the BLACK situation knocked Hillary Clinton's " incompetency" issue right OFF the radar. I guess Black Lives really do matter, especially IF you need votes.

justice_4_all2010 said...

I watched this new movie bout Manson and will say it is a better portrayal of old Charlie than other flicks that show him as a lunatic. He is charming and probably so many followed him. Highly unlikely anyone would follow him if he acted as the nut portrayed in other films... They do have some facts wrong but all in all a flick worth seeing, if only to see how Manson appeared to many before the crimes.

justice_4_all2010 said...

BTW...the link to watch this new Manson movie is @ cielodrive dot com under the Van Houten parole thread

grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

Here's a little homework assignment: Will someone please find where "Pigs" are referred to as the 'rich' people, other than by Vincent Bugliosi

'Pigs' aren't necessarily referred to as rich people specifically. Initially, Charles Manson used the term in much the same way as the counterculture did, to refer to the police. In his interview with the Sheriff a week before the Barker arrests, Brooks Poston says that Charlie referred to the police as pigs. He also, during February 1970, said the same thing to Bugliosi. There are other references from other people to the police being called pigs by Charlie, so we can see that he obviously used the term meaning them.
But there are also examples of a different usage of 'pigs'/'piggies' stemming from November '69 ~ February '70. For example, when speaking to the Police in his long November interview {before Bugliosi and Stovitz were even assigned the case} Danny DeCarlo says that the morning after Cielo, Clem told him "we got 5 piggies." Later on when talking about the Hinman murder, he says Bobby told him that he told Gary that he was a pig and that society no longer needed him. Juan Flynn testified that on the night of the LaBianca murders, Sadie had told him that they were going out "to get some fucking pigs." A month prior to this, Charlie had said to him & Bruce that he was going to have to show the Black man how to get HS going "by killing a whole bunch of those fucking pigs."
Clearly none of these references were to the police.
It would appear that at some point after hearing the White album, Charlie had adopted George Harrison's terminology for the establishment {and by extension, anyone that supported it} "piggies," and used it interchangeably with when he meant cops. Gregg Jakobson clearly understood 'piggies' to refer to "anyone who belonged to the establishment." Leslie Van Houten's understanding of 'pig' is also crucially important here as is Susan Atkins' reasons for writing it at the Tate house. To the Grand jury she says she was reminded of what had been written at the Hinman house. With Pat writing "death to pigs" at the LaBiancas' I think one is onto a surefire loser if one is going to try to interpret any of the writings in blood as messages to the police about the police.
I can't prove this because I have no access to papers or magazines of the time, but one of the first times 'pigs' becomes conflated or synonymous with the rich specifically where TLB is concerned, doesn't appear to have come from the Family and certainly not Bugliosi; it seems to have come from Bernadine Dorhn in December '69 at an early Weatherman convention when she stated "offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives and then eating a meal in the same room, far out ! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson." Her husband later said her comments were taken out of context but for our purposes, it doesn't matter. It's the what was said, not the what was meant.
To be fair, because messages had been written in blood at 3 houses, Bugliosi needed to know if any of the words used had any meaning for the Family and in particular Charlie. In a roundabout way, Charlie's instruction to leave a sign rebounded on him big time {and Tex & Pat not wearing gloves !}.

grimtraveller said...

A little more on how 'pig[s]' was used: Juan Flynn said that it referred to anyone that went along with or propped up the establishment, but he testified this in court so one could easily say that he was influenced by Bugliosi. However, on 26 and 28th November '69 when Leslie Van Houten was interviewed by Mike McGann, this little bit of dialogue takes place:

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) you know. It was just a term that was used.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah. But, of — of course the middle class person, I know they’re called pigs, but not ~ in addition to the police, didn’t they?

I mean, they just didn’t just (Unintelligible) they called middle class America pigs, didn’t they?

Wasn’t that Charlie’s definition?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum, hum, sort of, but...

SERGEANT McGANN: That puts a lot of people under the name of pigs.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Probably just ~ ah ~ the whole entire population of the United States.

SERGEANT McGANN: It didn’t include you ~ you guys up there, apparently. You came from probably a middle class family, didn’t you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uhhum, lower middle class, but —

SERGEANT McGANN: So that included you too, really,and your parents.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

Once again, it can be seen that the word had a wide application as understood by the Family and it speaks to the heart of Pat's intent in writing "death to pigs" and Susan's writing 'pig' at Cielo. It also acts as an interesting background prodding for Bobby at Hinman's house. He could have chosen a hundred other things to write; he happened to choose a word that had a particular part to play in what the Family stood for.


Robert Hendrickson said...

Here's a little homework assignment:

Have I passed the assignment sir ?

grimtraveller said...

justice_4_all2010 said...

a better portrayal of old Charlie than other flicks that show him as a lunatic. He is charming and probably so many followed him. Highly unlikely anyone would follow him if he acted as the nut portrayed in other films...

An interesting point. But I wonder.......
I wonder because a number of people, including the Family murderers, have described the way Charlie was and would act, long before there was a helter skelter or murder or the other things in the wind that signalled their eventual demise. All of his co~defendants have spoken of his abusive way with them and the flashes of temper mixed with the tenderness {as have other ex Family members} and despite it all, they followed his motions and stayed for varying lengths of time. I kind of suspect that in the countercultural acid era, someone who displayed some of what you refer to as the nut would actually be seen in quite a positive light, different, in the same kind of way that someone like John the Baptist who lived out in the desert, wore weird clothes, ate odd food and shouted at people was nonetheless something of a legendary figure that attracted followers.

Robert Hendrickson said...

find where "Pigs" are referred to as the 'rich' people, other than by Vincent Bugliosi.
Me THINKS Mr. "B" might have really put another one over on ALL of us


Susan Atkins before the grand jury in December '69:

Q: Susan, did Charlie oftentimes use the word pig, or, pigs?

A: Yes.

Q: How about helter~skelter?

A: Yes.

Q: Did he use the words pigs and helter~skelter very very frequently?

A: Well, Charlie talks a lot.

Q: I am concerned about these two words, pigs and helter~skelter.

A: I know of ~ in some of the songs he wrote helter~skelter was in them and he'd talk about helter~skelter. We all talked about helter~skelter.

Q: You say "we," are you speaking of the Family?

A: Yes.

Q: And that includes Tex?

A: Yes.

Q: So the words pigs and helter~skelter were common vocabulary; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: In what context would you and the other members of your Family use the words pig and pigs or helter~skelter?

A: Context? Would you...

Q: How would the words pigs and helter~skelter come up in your conversation?

A: They'd just come up. All conversations were spontaneous.

Q: What did the word pig or pigs mean to you and your Family?

A: You must understand that all words had no meanings to us and that helter~skelter was explained to me.

Q: By whom?

A: Charlie. I don't even like to say Charlie, I'd like to say the words came from his mouth that helter~skelter was to be the last war on the face of the earth. It would be all the wars that have ever been fought built one on top of the other, something that no man could conceive of in his imagination. You can't conceive of what it would be like to see every man judge himself and then take it out on every other man all over the face of the earth. And pig was a word used to describe the establishment.

Q: Today's establishment?

A: Today's establishment....