Sunday, August 28, 2016

Charles Manson's Musical Legacy: A Murderer's Words in 9 Tracks

From Beach Boys to GN'R, how Manson made his way onto other musician's music

By Elisabeth Garber-Paul (Rolling Stone)

Axl Rose, the Beach Boys and Marilyn Manson all reinterpreted Charles Manson's music in their own ways. Central Press/Getty, Dave Benett/Getty, Rolls Press/Popperfoto/Getty, Catherine McGann/Getty
Charles Manson wanted to be bigger than the Beatles. Today his name may be almost as well-known, but his original goal was to achieve that end via a recording contract – not multiple life sentences.

When Manson arrived in Los Angeles in the fall of 1967, he was a career criminal who'd learned guitar in prison and was trying to parlay a vague prison contact into a legitimate deal. Over the next year-and-a-half, he met some people who might have made it happen – Beach Boy Brian Wilson, producer (and Doris Day offspring) Terry Melcher – but between his creepy demeanor and clear lack of talent, Manson wasn't able to get anything off the ground. After his disillusionment with the music scene – and perhaps because of it – Manson, a small-time hippie guru, ordered his followers to murder Sharon Tate, Jay Seabring and four other people on the nights of August 9th and 10th in 1969. They were arrested that fall, and Charles Manson has been a national bogeyman ever since.

Following the murders, there has naturally been an unending stream of Manson-related pop culture, from tell-all books to made-for-TV movies to strange bits on 1990s sketch shows. But what about his non-murderous dream – his music? His voice and words have appeared on more than a few tracks over the years, offering him a place in musical history, courtesy of some morbid artists who found inspiration in his creative output. Here are nine times Charles Manson showed up in other people's music.



Beach Boys, "Never Learn Not To Love" (1968)

The only entry on this list that was recorded before the murders. Since Charles Manson and Dennis Wilson met in early 1968, the drummer had introduced Manson to his friends and even set up a session to record a demo – which would be released in 1970 as Lie: The Love and Terror Cult – but no one was willing to give Manson a deal. Dennis did, however, manage to get one of his songs onto his band's 1969 album 20/20, which was a small coup for Manson. Though the song's lyrics about getting a girl to submit went largely untouched, they changed the original title, "Cease to Exist." Worse, Manson didn't even get a writing credit on the LP. Needless to say, he was not pleased.



The Lemonheads, "Your Home Is Where You're Happy" (1988)

For this track off 1988's Creator, college radio rockers the Lemonheads did a pretty faithful cover of the Manson demo of the same name, keeping the lyrics intact and performing it on acoustic guitar. Manson was listed as a writer on the song and thus was entitled to royalties, though according to Jeff Gunn's 2013 biography Manson, all the profits went to murder victim Voytek Frykowski's son Bartek.



Crispin Glover, "I'll Never Say Never to Always" (1989)

It's perhaps not surprising that child-actor-turned-Hollywood-eccentric Crispin Glover decided to cover the notorious Angelino – the surprise was that he put out an album in the first place. After coming up on sitcoms like Happy Days, Glover had found mainstream success as Marty's dad George McFly in Back to the Future. But by 1989, he was bored with the industry and took a hiatus from acting to make his debut album The Big Problem Does Not Equal the Solution, The Solution Equals Let It Be, which included this Manson-penned track. For his version, Glover layered falsetto, crying babies and distant whistles to make the track even more menacing than the original – yet somehow not even the creepiest song on the album.




Skinny Puppy, "Worlock" (1989)

For this track off its album Rabies, the influential industrial act Skinny Puppy added a clip of Charles Manson singing the Beatles' "Helter Skelter" – the song Manson claimed was a call for him to start an apocalyptic race war – over the Fab Four's guitar intro to their White Album track. Though Cabaret Voltaire had sampled him a few years earlier, this seems to be the first time Manson's voice was fully been incorporated into a song – but it wouldn't be the last.




Nine Inch Nails "Gave Up" video (1992)

Not technically an appearance of Charles Manson, but weird enough to make the cut. In 1992, after the success of 1989's Pretty Hate Machine, NIN founder Trent Reznor moved into Sharon Tate's former home on Cielo Drive in Los Angeles to record his follow-up EP, Broken. For the beginning of the single's video, Reznor decided to splice in shots of the home’s manicured exterior over menacing synth – and like the opening moments of a horror movie, they are used to a surprisingly chilling effect. But Reznor would eventually feel guilty about using the Manson imagery. He recalled to Rolling Stone in 1997 that, after a chance encounter, Sharon Tate's sister asked him point-blank if he was living there to exploit Sharon's death. "I realized for the first time, 'What if it was my sister?'" he said. "I thought, 'Fuck Charlie Manson.' I don't want to be looked at as a guy who supports serial-killer bullshit."




Guns N' Roses, "Look at Your Game, Girl" (1993)

Marilyn Manson would later take credit for Axl Rose's interest in Charles Manson, which led to this macabre addition to the Spaghetti Incident? and by far the most well-known song on this list. Another straightforward cover from Charlie Manson's 1970 album Lie, it's a rather unimpressive track on first listen – a half-assed attempt at seducing a woman via Axl's nasal croon over a vaguely caribbean beat – until you realize that the guy who wrote it led a female-heavy cult.




Marilyn Manson, "My Monkey" (1994)

As if it weren't enough to name himself in an homage to Charlie, Marilyn Manson also repurposed a verse from Charles Manson's "I'm a Mechanical Man" for this track off his 1994 debut Portrait of an American Family, creating an ominous chant about a monkey sent to his death in the country, layering in samples of Charles's real voice for effect. The shock rocker had long wanted to cover the song – he'd discovered it in high school, later saying it was "the beginning of my identification with Manson." When he first met Trent Reznor – who was living on Cielo Drive – Marilyn told his new friend how much he'd like to cut the track at Sharon Tate's old home. While that didn't happen, he was there late one night mixing another American Family track including samples of Charlie's voice. He eventually gave up for the night, and the next morning the samples were gone from the tapes. "There was no real logical or technical explanation for it," he later said in an interview, albeit one punctuated by him doing lines of cocaine. "It was a truly supernatural moment that freaked me out."




Brian Jonestown Massacre, "Arkansas Revisited" (1999)

Though it doesn't exactly feature Manson's words, "Arkansas Revisited" makes the list because of it's a genuinely thoughtful reinterpretation of the song. What began with Manson as "Arkansas" was transformed into something beautiful – and that expresses desires that sound an awful lot like Charlie. As on the original track, the San Francisco psych-folk band with the cult-y name kept the instruments largely acoustic and maintained the original bluesy beat. But instead of Manson's somewhat incoherent rant about squatters in the south and men with droopy beards, singer Anton Newcomb tells the story of a person returning home to Arkansas to kill his parents because of the emotional damage they caused during his childhood.





103 comments:

Robert C said...

I've never completely understood how Manson was able to get close to (or be accepted by) Wilson & Melcher. I'm aware of the 'hitch-hiking girls' connection but it normally wasn't that easy getting close to the bigger music stars and producers of the day. I mean there were thousands of (better) musician wannabes hanging around LA & SF waiting for a break at that time.

ziggyosterberg said...


Gunter glieben glauten globen


"how Manson made his way onto other musician's music"


Notes to self :

1) invent robots to replace Millennials as writers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, drive-thru workers, etc.

2) become richest man in the world.

grimtraveller said...

Robert C said...

I've never completely understood how Manson was able to get close to (or be accepted by) Wilson & Melcher

I guess people like Dennis Wilson didn't meet that many people that were particularly genuine and interesting. Imagine getting home late one night and this guy comes out of your house and kisses your feet. And has semi naked women in your front room. Your curiosity may well trump your anger or fright.

it normally wasn't that easy getting close to the bigger music stars and producers of the day

When you had a troupe full of women who were prepared to cater to someone's every sexual whim with no blowback from the cops, let's just say that difficulties could easily be overcome.

I mean there were thousands of (better) musician wannabes hanging around LA & SF waiting for a break at that time

Which, in a way explains a lot. There was a more sharing attitude in the air at the time. In the same way that in England during the late 50s and through the 60s you had a situation where people of all different classes met and mixed for possibly the first time outside of war and the army, in the USA you had runaways and people from different backgrounds converging on these places that were held in high esteem as places where everyone was cool and love vibes abounded. For a while, it was true but as reality asserted itself, it was unsustainable. However, while it was happening, all kinds of people came into contact with one another. Sex and drugs were handy tools for breaking down background barriers. If one thinks about it, Charlie by may '68 was already fairly adept at moving within the ranks of the middle classes and a bit like with those fabled "good" girls that like "a bit of rough" or with the poor that want some of what the rich folks have, there can be something quite alluring about people from the other side of the tracks.
A similar thing was happening in England with all kinds of people getting alongside the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, Donovan, the Animals and the emerging rock aristocracy. You had the stars giving people private islands, funding their projects, buying them clothes or giving away certain possessions. It was a heady time.

ziggyosterberg said...


^^^^^^Doctor must've ordered Grim to exercise his fingers every night.


I guess people like Dennis Wilson didn't meet that many people that were particularly genuine and interesting.

I'll just assume that you're taking the piss here.


When you had a troupe full of women who were prepared to cater to someone's every sexual whim with no blowback from the cops, let's just say that difficulties could easily be overcome.

If your name was Charles 'Tex' Watson, all that you needed was an old pickup truck and a desire to move in and live rent free in Dennis' mansion. It may have also helped a little that Tex was a drug dealer, wouldn't you say?


Which, in a way explains a lot. There was a more sharing attitude in the air at the time....(snipped for brevity's sake)

Fuckin' ponderous, man. Ponderous. Fuckin' ponderous.


Farflung said...

There were a couple groups of people in the '60s that were sort of treated like exotic pets. That being hippies, and oddly, bikers.

I think the Hollywood types thought associating with them would make them cool, and groovy, or edgy, and dangerous.

Hunter S. Thompson's book on the Hell's Angels best outlines the upper class fascination with the gang. Recall the Rolling Stones hired them as "security" for Altamont, and a patron was stabbed to death. The guy doing the stabbing was found floating in a lake some years later. That's enough danger for the average Walter Mitty, or Percival Dovetonsil.

Having learned some collective lesson, homes are built like a topiary fortress. Green and pretty, but the message is clear - Stay Out!

It's like trying to imagine a time where access to the White House was granted by knocking on the front door. Different time, different awareness.

Robert Hendrickson said...

GEE Wizz, is there "anything" unique this MANSON Family Story does NOT connect with ?

So many avenues this STORY has traveled and so many intersections it has crossed, no wonder the MANSON mystique will NEVER end.

I'll bet NOT many people can even name the still LIVING Beatles, BUT it's NO coincidence "Rolling Stone" has timed a MANSON story with this August's anniversary of the Tate / LaBianca Massacre.

Richard Nixon played the piano WELL and Bill Clinton played the SAX pretty good, BUT nobody has played America quite as well as Mr. Manson has played us ALL.

grimtraveller said...

ziggyosterberg said...

I'll just assume that you're taking the piss here

I wasn't. Between having Hal Blaine doing your drum bits in the studio, being on the road in a different place each night, doing all those TV shows where you smile at the camera and do as you're told, having little creative input in your band's music, seething resentment towards Dad Murray and a marriage going down the pans, I can see why Dennis would possibly have gotten jaded and cynical about people and why Charlie and the Family would have seemed, at least initially, like a tsunami wave of refreshment to his existence.

It may have also helped a little that Tex was a drug dealer, wouldn't you say?

Possibly, but Tex became part of the Family scene after they were ensconced at Dennis' pad. One can assume that Wilson was already well connected drug wise by then.
Dennis Wilson will always have the dubious distinction of being the person that connected the two Charles.....

Fuckin' ponderous, man. Ponderous. Fuckin' ponderous

Is that a complaint or a compliment ? ☺

Robert Hendrickson said...

BTW: FARFLUNG has a "bingo" there. I've encountered both the Manson Family and the Hell's Angels - doesn't get much HIGHER than that. EXCEPT when I was Jr. High school age a drunk kid put a loaded gun to my head and OH what a buzz that cave ME.

Exotic "Pets" FAROUT YOU get an "A." Dennis Wilson must have got a buzz that lasted the rest of his LIFE.

Dreath said...

I think that is right- Manson was an 'outlaw' and outlaws were 'cool'. More then one band during the time began to write songs or cover songs about outlaws. There was a mystique surrounding the 'outlaw' at the time.

I also think we shouldn't lose sight of who Manson was: a con man, whose techniques combined with his charism was very convincing until you figured out who he was and what he was all about. I don't think we should assume his mind games would only work on 19 year old girls.

ziggyosterberg said...


Possibly, but Tex became part of the Family scene after they were ensconced at Dennis' pad. One can assume that Wilson was already well connected drug wise by then.

There's only two reasons why Dennis would let (non-Manson family member) Tex waltz right into his home and give him his own bedroom to live in rent free :

1) He was gay for him

or

2) He was supplying Dennis with drugs

The only other asset that Tex had was auto mechanics. Unlike the people at the ranch, Dennis could afford to have his cars fixed by a real mechanic.

One has to ask - Why was Tex, a man with no music background or abilities, hanging out with Wilson & Jakobson and making numerous visits (Terry Melcher's trial testimony) to Melcher's house (Cielo) with them?

The "Dean Moorehouse coming on to some of the girls" story as the catalyst for why Tex was kicked out of Dennis' seems a little suspect to me. I'm sure that Dennis had other reasons for ditching Tex. Perhaps he (or Jakobson or Melcher) got tired of Tex burning him/them on drug deals. Pure speculation on my part.

I do think that the Melcher/Jakobson/Wilson connection with Tex, and Tex's possible beef with any of them has always been underplayed and hardly examined. Tex's bloodlust/psychosis at Cielo couldn't have been entirely accidental.

Interesting to note that the Jakobson/Altobelli Cielo connection lasted well after the murders. Jakobson's son, Adam, was the listing agent when Altobelli finally put it up for sale in 1988.

Panamint Patty said...

Happy birthday DebS!!

Manson Mythos said...

The three orientals with hatchets that Melcher sent to Spahn had a lot to do with animosity towards Melcher.

Panamint Patty said...

Orientals? Honestly, Wtf Dennis?

Manson Mythos said...

Sure.

Manson Mythos said...

"Sharon Tate and those people died because Terry Melcher broke a contract and sent three orientals with hatches to kill somebody else. He didn't directly do this. What he did was send his mother's man over to put the light's out in another chamber of thought" - Charles Manson

Three orientals/his mother's man = melcher's dad, Rev. Sun Myung Moon, Mike Deasy = Mike Deasy = the korean "man" (Melcher being half Korean, the "man to Melcher is the korean man)

The broken contract is a reference to Melcher pushing off the production of the Family album/movie off on Deasy. What didn't come out in the trial is that Deasy spent a total of 3 days on Sphan. Aside from being a dick, he had a nightmarish acid trip and at one point tried to stab Manson with a pitchfork. Bruce and I guess Tex fucked him up pretty badly and the whole thing left a lot of people at the ranch pissed off.

BTW ....Wilson knew Hinman, as he personally told Bill Murphy. I think he might have told Murphy he met Manson through Hinman.

Panamint Patty said...

Okay patty gets it now it was a direct quote not a slur. Plus it's an interesting comment so patty apologises.

Dreath said...

MM said: "Three orientals/his mother's man = melcher's dad, Rev. Sun Myung Moon, Mike Deasy = Mike Deasy = the korean "man" (Melcher being half Korean, the "man to Melcher is the korean man)."

I assume you mean Sung Myung Moon or Mun Seon-myeong is Melcher's father?

Every source I have seen says Melcher's father was Al Jorden whom Doris Day married at age 18. He was a trombone player and allegedly abused her. She divorced him shortly after Terry's birth.

Melcher was born February 8, 1942. That means Moon had to be where she was in the April-May, 1941 timeframe

"A secular education beckoned, and in 1941 Mr. Moon entered Waseda University in Japan, where he studied electrical engineering. Two years later he returned to Korea and married Sun Kil Choi, who bore him a son.
*****
He embarked on world tours over the next decade and in 1972 settled in the United States, seeing it as the promised land for church growth. ("Rev. Sun Myung Moon, Self-Proclaimed Messiah Who Built Religious Movement, Dies at 92" By Daniel Wakin, NY Times, September 2, 2012.)

Sung Myung Moon entered the US for the first time in 1965. (The Unification Church Studies in Contemporary Religion, Massimo Introvigne, 2000, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, Utah)

Doris Day was recording the song "Made Up My Mind" in April 1941, although it is hard to tell she was likely in New York.

Of course he technically could have been in the US in New York city in April-May 1941 and had a fling with Doris but I find that to be highly unlikely unless you have some further sources.

And, of course these sources could also be wrong.

Manson Mythos said...

You're not understanding "Charlie Speak".

Rev. Moon, Melcher's dad are slang for the Korean "man". Melcher being Korean, Koreans are "the man" to Melcher. Although I am not sure, I suspect Deasy is also half Korean. But regardless, Charlie is talking in riddles and metaphor.

The DA, Bugliosi, Rome, Catholic Church, Italian, Mafioso, etc are also interchangeable to Manson.

Cielodrive.com said...

Melcher Korean?

Panamint Patty said...

Yeah Patty thought he was jewish

Manson Mythos said...

Watch the Bil Scanlan Murphy interview. He reffered to Melcher or Deasy (I now think) as "The blonde haired blue oriental". In the Murphy interview and Ron Reagan Jr. interview he implies Melcher's dad was Korean.

In the Murphy interview, he talks of how we lost the Korean war but never told the public and when they lost the war, they had to give up their sex to the Korean and "Doris Day was the prize".

Al Jorden oesn't look it, but I always thought Melcher DID have asian features. In the end, I have no idea really. But it doesn't change the fact that he was talking about the Deasy incident.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/09/article-2451441-189CC58D00000578-739_306x429.jpg

Dreath said...

MM: ok, that link is to a jpeg of Melcher. Could you put up the article link?

Probably 90% of the people on this blog know 90% more then me about this subject but I am having a hard time with this and trying t learn from all sources.

This is, perhaps, Al Jorden: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/104568022571538302/

He is not to my view Korean, although he does look a bit like Terry, to me.

But let me understand: several Koreans attack Spahn with hatchets, perhaps because session musician, Mike Deasy had a bad acid trip and tried to stick Manson with a pitchfork (if only he had succeeded)? and because of this Manson targeted a house where he knew Melcher was not present.

The reason I don't get this is I don't understand 'Manson-Speak'? or perhaps like all narcissists/sociopaths he can't resist being the center of attention and this quote is just a pile of crap like many of his statements?

And assuming Melcher is Korean and assuming he directly or indirectly sent three Koreans with hatchets to attack the Family does this explain or somehow justify sending people to murder five completely innocent people at a house where he knew Melcher was not present?

Or maybe Harold True got it right: he only knew two places in LA- the former 'True house' and Cielo and passed on the True house, going next door, because he liked Harold and his 'frat party' roommates so he went next door? That does explain his wandering about on night #2.

Or maybe ATWA, because he loves the environment, drove him to act-he recognized there was a gardner at Cielo and one at the LaBianca house and realized they were likely in 1969 using pesticides and herbicides that were bad for the environment and with the run-off he needed to stop it!

Ok, now I am being sarcastic, sorry.

Or maybe his ego, contrary to the notion he had 'lost his ego' drove him and he left prison and walked into a world where he was suddenly 'important'. His 'rap'- his shtick- worked in ways he could never imagine in 1958 when he went in and all these doped up LSD riddled hippies bought his thing. For a while he was a hero, a guru, he was Charlie the Outlaw, the Philosopher and they were actually (stoned to the be-jeezus) listening to his songs and, like us, trying to decipher his cryptic/BS message (I harken back to a scene in Animal House- "There could be a whole universe under my thumb nail? Could I buy some pot from you?").

Then the acid wore off and Melcher- the business man said: this is crap (listen to the songs- they are crap) and he got desperate as he faded into obscurity and all he had left was the Family and a philosophy he likely believed that the BLACK muslims were going to cause a revolution but now no one would listen to Manson the prophet....so..."I'm not telling you what to do but if you do what YOU think is right...I'm with you" led to murder.

And maybe, just maybe he actually believed his own line and saw his music as a way to enlighten the world and THEY dared to ignore him, render him, again, just an irrelevant pimp.

Or maybe he was just a narcissist and a sociopath.

I wander back to Harold True- what was it: tell a bunch a crazies there is no right or wrong and they ought to do whatever they think is right and you have a problem- or words to that effect.

Sorry, rant over.

Manson Mythos said...

The motive did not revolve around Melcher. But that people were mad at Melcher, according to Manson is one reason there was an explosion of violence. He also cited police harrassement at the ranch, getting Bobby out of jail and is something else, we just don't know what that is. When asked if Watson went to Cielo because he knew the lay out, he replied "in part"

Dreath said...

Maybe just maybe the other part is exactly what Harold True said: Manson knew only two locations in LA.

A 'drug burn' or a 'copycat' can work for night number one. But how do you get through night number two with that? Assume everything Kasabian said is a lie- the second night- Rosemary and Leno are murdered by Van Hauten, Krenwinkel and Watson- it seems to me (in my opinion) that night just wipes out these theories. I have read the alternative scenarios and just can't get there.

Then I read Van Hauten talking to her attorneys and I say "ok, check off one for 'all in' on the revolution theory".

She, at least, 'believed'. How did she get there? How did she think it was 'alright' to kill? To copycat? Payback? Then say it. But she never does.... just four months after the events.

Just wondering.

Dreath said...

I think just maybe we give this man too much power when we actually listen to him.

In my corner of the 'beloved profession' I encounter abused 'spouses and significant others' all the time. Many of them describe their decision making in terms not dissimilar to Family members: there is little they would not do for 'them'. They 'fire' me because 'I don't understand'.

Manson was a pimp- an abuser in a classic sense.

Maybe that is all he was.

ziggyosterberg said...


I remember transcribing part of that Ron Reagan interview here a while back (can't for the life of me remember what thread it was), and I'm not sure if I said it, but I thought that the "3 orientals with hatchets" was a metaphor for Susan, Pat and Tex at Cielo, and "his mother's man" who Terry sent, not directly, but through his actions, "to put the light out in another chamber" was a reference to Charlie himself, and the consequences (Cielo) of Terry's actions. Charlie has also claimed to have f-cked Doris Day (maybe he said it just to piss off Terry), so referring to himself as "his mother man" might make a little more sense if you factor that in.

However, if what Dennis says about Deasy at the ranch is correct, then I was waaaaay off.

Back in the day, I used to always set the VCR to record anytime I read or heard that Charlie was going to be interviewed. I remember when he was interviewed by Hard Copy in the early 90's and the interviewer asked him about TV's "Murphy Brown" (Candice Bergen), and Charlie said something like "Who the hell is Murphy Brown?". The next time I saw him interviewed (maybe Ron Reagan?), he threw the name "Murphy Brown" in there at one point during the interview. It harkens back to what Gregg Jakobson said about Manson being an eclectic - a borrower of things or ideas. Reverend Sun Myung Moon might be just another thing that he heard and incorporated into his act for a while.

BTW, Sandra Good was also on the Ron Reagan Jr show with another guest (maybe Bill Nelson?) around the same time that Charlie was interviewed. I haven't seen that episode anywhere since it aired (I wonder if George has a copy of it?). The Fox affiliate which aired the show where I lived was showing it at around 1am, so it was on it's way to being cancelled, and maybe not many people saw that episode.

Manson Mythos said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Manson Mythos said...

"his mother's man" is a symbolic reference to Deasy, not himself.

As for not listening to Manson, he has actually revealed more than his co-defendants. People just dismiss him, as you did.

The problem is the way this case was presented in the media and trial, people are forever under a spell and cannot think about it without putting Charlie front and center. The others were individuals too with their own emotions and interests. I seriously doubt he sent them anywhere to carry out a murder mission and trust they could pull it off. Too risky, considering the ranch was under constant police harassment, he was sweating bulllets about Crowe and Both Bobby and Mary were in jail and could turn over on him with Hinman at any moment. If they got caught, it could have easily traced back to the ranch (at least earlier).

Harold True is a contradiction, because he'll say Charlie didn't order the murders and isn't a killer, but then say he picked the houses. The problem with his theory, is that both Manson and Tex WERE familiar with a lot more places than those two houses.

It's more interesting that Kasabian was familiar with the house before meeting The Family and from there, they made a beeline to Venice. Where True said they used to "score their dope" and ironically she knew somebody they could kill....right near Straight Satans.

I think the "Charlie wanted to be a star" idea is as overblown and silly as Helter Skelter. Charlie clearly did not want to be produced and hated the sterile environment of recording studios. He seemed to invest far more interest and time in trying to move out to Death Valley. But from what I understand, the thing Gregg and Melcher wanted to do was record The Family and do a movie. But that's a little known fact thus people will never consider THEY might have been more mad at Melcher on top of the fact they felt Charlie was dissed. You know, they were humans with their own hopes and dreams too. Bugliosi dehumanized them by calling them "robots" who were slaves to Manson, thus people cannot see them as anything else. This was a great way to not only get Manson, but ward off any suspicion these people may have been thinking for themselves and/or had their own personal motives.

It appears Deasy might have filmed them too. Apparently Fitzgerald subpoenaed Deasy for film and the music recordings.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Maybe, just maybe, what we have here is simply a group of musicians forming a BAND with a lead singer and several "groupies." BUT what separated this BAND from other notable music folks was "young" women who "lived" with the BAND.

Most all other musicians ONLY "fuck'd em and forgot'em, BUT this BAND and their lead singer actually INCLUDED the women in THEIR 'rise' to make some "far-out" music.

AND remember, these were the times when wild "Pigs" roamed the streets thirsting for Negros, Mexicans and "long-hairs." LOOK-OUT Helter Skelter !

St Circumstance said...

Good Stuff Matt- This is a nice summary of the Musical Legacy which really will be one of Charlies less fantastical lasting impressions..

As for my two cents on the rest of it, let me say this..

First, I am not arguing over this anymore with anyone. From now on, I state my opinion and wait for the next post. I decided that I don't have another two seconds in my life ever again to argue or trade barbs with ignorant strangers who really only come here to act like jackasses to other people who feel differently than they do. If you don't agree with me-thats cool. If you feel otherwise- say so. If you need to add personal insults or comments- I feel sorry for you :) But I am over it.

Having said that...


We know who did the crimes at Cielo and why. It has been all out there forever. The people who did it have all they said it, as well as why they did it. Some will argue over the idea that they were really there for a different the reason they thought, or Charlie had some secret motivation. Maybe...

But, the people who did the crimes have told us why they THOUGHT they were doing it. They all have told the same story for over 30 years...

I think this is alot like the recent election in this regard. Trump supporters are like Charlie supporters. They really are. Its so frustrating to try and talk sense or reason with them.

No matter what Charie says or does- They are going to argue for it, or -when it goes bad- that it was someone elses' fault. Finally, when all else fails simply shift the conversation to others faults. (Bugs/ Linda/ Koreans lol- whatever) you simply cannnot point out any of the obvious BS he is peddling. They just don't want to hear it. I am no Clinton fan, but even her supporters have issues with her lies and email situation. Charlie and The Donald can do no wrong to their people as they racistly walk through life screwing, and using, the same people who support them

I have learned that it is useless to try and talk or reason with either, and that it is a waste of time to argue with people who are so completely close minded.

Have a great Holiday weekend- Gotta run...

love and stuff-

Your Favorite Saint

Dreath said...

So......

"Sharon Tate and those people died because Terry Melcher broke a contract and sent three orientals with hatches to kill somebody else. He didn't directly do this. What he did was send his mother's man over to put the light's out in another chamber of thought" - Charles Manson

This means...... Melcher broke a deal he made with someone (but not Manson) and the three 'orientals' are Krenwinkel, Atkins and Tex (but not Linda?) going to Cielo Drive but that also happened because Deasy had tried to stab Manson with a pitchfork and the three wanted revenge for that too or, alternatively, the last sentence means what Melcher did (unintentionally- since his deal breaking caused Cielo) was cause Manson to go to jail because the three did what they did. But this has nothing to do with the motive. Is that right?

Might I ask who interpreted Manson's statement and reached these conclusions? In other words where I might read/listen to that explanation?

MM: I think we will just have to agree to disagree. You appear to be from a school of thought that believes Manson is either innocent or perhaps 'less guilty' and was railroaded. I obviously don't share either view. And like I have said before when a witness places him in the car the second night with the killers from the first night and anyone dies the second night, he goes to jail, forever. Doesn't that simple, voluntary act on his part call into question the idea he was too smart to order the murders (rhetorical question).

Robert Hendrickson said...

RIGHT now a police stand-off is occurring at one of MY neighbor's house (CHRIS BROWN)

What makes this relevant HERE as we discuss the MANSON situation is Chris Brown is always having run-ins with the cops.

Trouble is this time HE will NOT come out of HIS house and the COPS are frothting at mouth.

When the "search warrant" comes one of THEM could make "KILLER" in a day.

Matt said...

Dreath said...

MM: I think we will just have to agree to disagree. You appear to be from a school of thought that believes Manson is either innocent or perhaps 'less guilty' and was railroaded.


Yes, a Manson apologist, 100%

Manson Mythos said...

Schreck even though parts of the book is flawed, is still above and beyond the others.


If you put it against other works of fiction, it may stack up favorably. However we are discussing "True Crime" here, so Schreck must be dismissed out of hand.


Farflung said...

Many a person has felt the need to state... "Ya know, Manson never actually killed anyone".

This brings me to the human trinity of existence: Morality, Legality, and Mentality.

You know who else never actually killed anybody? That's right, Ted Kaczynski. He never shot or stabbed nobody. It was the USPS, or their own curiosity what set off those bombs. Right?

Know about David Cash? He witnessed a 7 year old girl being molested, then killed in a casino bathroom. Apparently he did what all of "us" would do, and that's nothing. No intervention, police, or feeble cry for help.

Morally I hope there's a chair super close to the fires of hell for the likes of Cash, because he did nothing illegal. I do question the mentality of such a cretin, and hope I continue to avoid such a pathetic life form.

ziggyosterberg said...


It would be a pretty boring blog if we all agreed on everything and we all thought that Manson was 100% guilty. WTF would we talk about? Steve Parent's potential as a Radio Shack store manager?

Matt said...

Yes, spirited debate based on facts is fun and educational. But some points of view just dumb-down the conversation.


Robert Hendrickson said...

What may evolve into a REAL legal controversy is playing out NOW.

Apparently CHRIS BROWN, in HIS home, pulled a gun on an UN-invited guest and when SHE left, she complained to the police. He will NOT come out of HIS house and after hours of waiting the COPS still have NOT secured a "search warrant" to GET the gun. Say what ? NOW you can't even PULL a gun on someone in YOUR own house. Bye bye Mr. NRA, we gonn'a get YOUR guns - sooner than later.

AND Mr. C. Brown: wake-up YOU are a "dead walking."

Farflung said...

Robert,

Grab your camera and soundboard.

Cuz me thinks lighting is about to strike twice.

Manson Mythos said...

If you put it against other works of fiction, it may stack up favorably. However we are discussing "True Crime" here, so Schreck must be dismissed out of hand.

But sleazy true crime magazines that call Charlie a "Satanic cult" leader shouldn't? Not to say I don't enjoy these rags or books like "Five to Die". In your opinion what makes Schreck less credible, than say somebody like Ed Sanders who dedicated entire chapter to unrelated cults and even discussed fabricated ones? Schreck only speculated in the 2nd edition of his book that The Process being tied to Manson might have been the result of a Scientology smear campaign and lo' and behold, the press release from them (first mention of the Process with this case) turned up a few years later. So he's a bit ahead of the curve with a lot.

Like his book or not, Schreck deserves a great deal of respect. Charles Manson Superstar is easily the best documentary made thus far. As for a Manson apologist, some of the best research and info came from people you can describe as that. Schreck, Bougas, Aes-Nihil, George Stimson, etc. and they were doing it when few others were.

I wouldn't say Manson is "innocent" Dreath. But railroaded and "less guilty" absolutely.

Manson Mythos said...

Trump supporters are like Charlie supporters. They really are. Its so frustrating to try and talk sense or reason with them.

What a crock. The myth of Manson says he did what? Speak to the anger and animosity of the disenfranchised, put weapons in their hands and go to war and "rise" against the establishment? While appealing to the noble motives that a better world will rise from it's ashes?

That is exactly what Clinton and Obama did. The difference is, Charles Manson was never proven to have done that and went to death Row, while Clinton went on TV and said "we came, we saw he died" and laughed. A guy who's big dream was to supply fresh water to his people, which that gangster bitch you think is a better alternative to a man who tweets "mean things" bombed the pipes and left more than 50% of them without water.

Matt said...

"I wouldn't say Manson is "innocent" Dreath. But railroaded and "less guilty" absolutely."

Then we actually agree on something. But, because Schreck was better than Sanders really is nothing to brag about. Few here support his non-annotated works of fiction either. MB researchers checked Schreck's work and found that he stretched the truth too much. Publicly available documentation is what speaks. Sanders has never annotated his work so he is dismissed. Simple fact checking debunked key pillars of Schreck's book. Rather than poo poo that, why don't you refute it with public record. That's one thing no one seems willing to do. We're waiting!

Dreath said...

For the benefit of my learning curve and perhaps a research idea maybe some time you could all tell me how you think Manson was railroaded.

Not allowed to represent himself?
Fabricated evidence?
"Coached" and thus lying witnesses?
Ineffective assistance of counsel?

I am honestly curious.

St Circumstance said...

See what I mean... Pointless to argue. I never said I preferred Clinton- I said I was no fan out of her specifically. She has her flaws too. I am not voting actually. I am writing myself in and am on public record here and elsewhere saying so.

It is her supporters who are unique...

But this is why my point is so valid and I have to stop doing this and wasting my time.

Chris Brown stand off is more interesting lol

Actually I didn't even mean you MM- I actually agree with some of the stuff you say- although not most of it. Plus, you do know the case.

there have been others over the years who get personally insulting and make rude comments, and come here only for that. Those were my targets- which is why I am answering you know...

Respect.

but the difference between spirited debate which is fun, and name calling with multiple people for days is not. I like doing this and am sick of people who really go too far and take the fun out of it.

Now I am finished with this subject except to say- Good post Matt- which is how I started :)

Cielodrive.com said...

Robert's film is easily the best. Nothing is even reasonably close

St Circumstance said...

Ok Ill make one last exception to agree with Cielo :) Cause I do!!

ziggyosterberg said...


Robert Hendrickson said...

"these were the times when wild "Pigs" roamed the streets thirsting for Negros"

Insert Kardashian joke here

Manson Mythos said...

I forgot briefly about Robert's film. But Schreck's sure as hell is a great one.

Matt said...

ziggyosterberg said...

Insert Kardashian joke here


... spilled drink!!!



Zelda Formaldehyde said...

I must admit that I'd never seen RH's doc until a year ago. Very well done, I need to grab a copy.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Dreath, I think the Charlie sympathizers particularly like to point to the pre-trial publicity.

ziggyosterberg said...


You've got to admit, Robert Hendrickson really has a way with words. You could insert a Robert quote into any literary classic and it wouldn't seem out of place :

"A Tale of Two Cities" by Charles Dickens

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness. These were the times when wild "Pigs" roamed the streets thirsting for Negros.

"Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad

Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time. “Dennis Wilson must have got a buzz that lasted the rest of his LIFE,” said the Director suddenly. I raised my head. The offing was barred by a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the uttermost ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky— seemed to lead into the heart of an immense darkness.

Dreath said...

Ziggy that is just great! Clap-clap-clap

Farflung said...

Ziggy plus 2,

That's right, I voted twice cuz I lived in Chicago.

ziggyosterberg said...


More Robert Hendrickson literary classics (Russian edition) :

"War and Peace" by Leo Tolstoy

Well, Prince, so Genoa and Lucca are now just family estates of the Buonapartes. But I warn you, if you don't tell me that this means war, if you still try to defend the infamies and horrors perpetrated by that Antichrist- every time I see the image of SATAN, I think of LBJ. I really believe he is Antichrist- I will have nothing more to do with you and you are no longer my friend, no longer my 'faithful slave,' as you call yourself! But how do you do? I see I have frightened you- sit down and tell me all the news.

"Crime and Punishment" by Fyodor Dostoevsky

But that is the beginning of a new story -- the story of the gradual renewal of a man, the story of his gradual regeneration, of his passing from one world into another, of his initiation into a new unknown life. The GROWTH of a catapiller into a butterfly, (or a wasp that only appears to be a butterfly) ? OR the GROWTH of an unauthorized music / movie uploader into a full fledged "pirate." That might be the subject of a new story, but our present story is ended.

Matt said...

ROTFLMFAO!!!

Robert Hendrickson said...

NO more weed-stem "soup" for Ziggy and IF you can't even HOLD on to your drink that's considered more than just a senior moment. And IF the SAINT can write an entire POST without spilling a drop maybe we all need to get on board the "band" wagon.

So YESTERDAY Farflung, I should have had a camera, BUT I did, only it was one of those old fashion obsolete 16mm things with a telephoto zoom lens, which looked like a an actual dangerous weapon.

And with a police helicopter perched right over MY head, NOT a good thing to be pointing a metal object in the direction of a hundred or so COPS, even though it seemed like just another "let's fuck with the Black guy" exercise.


So NOW I realize how Charles Manson progressed to become Public Enemy # 1 and Chris Brown is headed in that very SAME direction. Mr. Brown is now a "marked" man: Public Enemy # 1B

St Circumstance said...

Mr. H lol do you think this might have anything to do with it...

or are they just being prejudiced?


March 2009: Brown is charged with felony assault after an altercation with then-girlfriend Rihanna. The incident leaves her bloody and bruised, and photos of her battered face are leaked to the public

March 2011: He makes headlines for smashing a window and storming out shirtless of the Good Morning America studios, upset that host Robin Roberts asked about Rihanna during his interview

June 2012: Brown and rapper Drake are accused of prompting a bottle-smashing brawl

November 2012: Brown goes back to court for a progress report on his 2009 domestic violence caseand is cleared of a probation violation. In addition, he shocks fans after getting into an extremely vulgar, expletive-laden Twitter exchange with comedian Jenny Johnson. He deletes his Twitter account after their fight, sending out one final tweet calling Johnson a word that rhymes with "witch."

January 2013: He gets into a fight with singer Frank Ocean in a parking lot at Hollywood's Westlake Recording Studios, according to police who were called to the scene. The fight allegedly is sparked because Brown parked his car in Ocean's spot, with rumors circulating that Ocean dissed Rihanna, and that Brown called Ocean gay slurs and threatened to shoot his entourage. In August, a member of Ocean's entourage filed a lawsuit against Brown, saying he suffered a concussion and is seeking damages

May 2013: Brown is charged with a hit-and-run, after allegedly crashing into a car, driving away and refusing to provide his name, driver's license and insurance info. He later turns himself in, spending about an hour in jail. He pleads not guilty and the charges are dropped in August, after Brown reaches a civil compromise with the other driver.

June 2013: A 24-year-old woman accuses Brown of assaulting her after his show at a California nightclub. She alleges that he shoved her to the ground, badly injuring her knee. Brown later tweeted "I didn't do anything," but then deleted the tweet. The accusation was dropped when the nightclub's reps stood by Brown, saying that they never saw him "push or touch anybody."

Oct. 27, 2013: Brown is arrested and charged with felony assault after he and his bodyguard allegedly attacked a fan outside of the W Hotel in Washington, D.C. In the police report of the incident, the victim, a 20-year-old male named Isaac Parker, says he tried to get in a photo that Brown was taking with a female fan, and that Brown punched him in the face in response.


career violent criminals like Chris and Charlie tend to get extra attention and I am glad they do...

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

I can name all the guys in Canned Heat and Spirit, but I have no idea who Chris Brown is. Gonna be keeping it that way.

DebS said...

Manson Mythos said...

Schreck only speculated in the 2nd edition of his book that The Process being tied to Manson might have been the result of a Scientology smear campaign and lo' and behold, the press release from them (first mention of the Process with this case) turned up a few years later. So he's a bit ahead of the curve with a lot.
--------------------------------------------

Ummmm, no. The first mention of a Process connection with this case came as early as January 11 1970 and it was a Scientology spokesperson who made the accusation. As an aside, there is also a Zodiac Killer connection mentioned here, too, so that theory's origins are not attributable to Bill Nelson. Please read the article posted here-

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=1749

Schreck has few original ideas. He would like people to think he's some kind of genius when it comes to this case but he's not. He just recycles other people's ideas and cites them as his own. Sound familiar?

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

DebS said ..."Schreck has few original ideas. He would like people to think he's some kind of genius when it comes to this case but he's not. He just recycles other people's ideas and cites them as his own. Sound familiar?"

I'm a little behind on some of the literary content on TLB (I'm doing double-time catching up in the past 6 months). Was Schreck the originator of the drug-burn Watson/Kassabian/Frykowski/Folger/Sebring/Rostau conglomerate, or did that originate elsewhere?

Dreath said...

Ziggy- what a comment to wake up to. I second Matt's comment.

Zelda said: "I can name all the guys in Canned Heat and Spirit....."

That too made my morning. The Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus- great stuff.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Dreath, it was interesting reading (though I can't remember where) Spirit's manager, David Briggs telling the story about running Manson off when he was lurking around during Spirit rehearsals at their place in Topanga Canyon. He made it clear that Charlie was nothing but a pain in the ass.

DebS said...

Zelda Formaldehyde said...
DebS said ..."Schreck has few original ideas. He would like people to think he's some kind of genius when it comes to this case but he's not. He just recycles other people's ideas and cites them as his own. Sound familiar?"

I'm a little behind on some of the literary content on TLB (I'm doing double-time catching up in the past 6 months). Was Schreck the originator of the drug-burn Watson/Kassabian/Frykowski/Folger/Sebring/Rostau conglomerate, or did that originate elsewhere?
------------------

The possibility of this theory was mentioned in the SECOND HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION
PROGRESS REPORT
DR 69-059 593

On 9-8-69, investigators received information from Karlene Ann McCaffrey, receptionist for
Sebring, Inc., that Joel J. Rostau, residing at 840 North Larabee Street, apartment 119, had
delivered narcotics to the Tate residence on the night of the homicide. Rostau informed
McCaffrey that he had delivered cocaine and mescaline to the house but that Frykowski and
Sebring wanted some additional narcotics and that he had gone back down the hill but was
unable to locate the other narcotics they requested and therefore he did not return to the Tate
residence. McCaffrey stated that on August 7, 1969, she had talked to Sebring and he had
informed her that he had been burnt on $2,000 worth of bad cocaine. McCaffrey stated that
in her opinion Sebring would do almost anything to get back at the person who had burnt him.
McCaffrey was arrested on 4-13-69, along with Rostau after two armed men had entered
Rostau's apartment at approximately 0600 and tied both Rostau and McCaffrey up and
subsequently shot Rostau in the foot. When Sheriff's investigators arrived at Rostau's
apartment, they conducted a search and found a quantity of marijuana, cocaine and hashish.
The District Attorney refused to file on McCaffrey, but did file Possession of Narcotics for Sale
against Rostau. Rostau is presently out on $5,000 bail awaiting trial in Beverly Hills.
On 9-16-69, investigators Bachhelder and Lee interviewed Rostau at which time he stated he
had only met Jay Sebring once or twice, but he was on friendly terms with Frykowski. Rostau
denied being at the Cielo address prior to the homicide. Investigation is continuing on this subject.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Thanks Deb.
Yes, I've read the first 2 homicide reports before (great reading). Did anyone expound on that between 1969 and Schreck's second book? (unless I'm wrong, I understand the whole drug opera was not included in the first version from 1988). I would like to know if an outside writer put his knackers on the line to make a case for the drug-burn scenario before Schreck. Is it possible or even likely that he just concocted his whole theory based on the homicide report?

St Circumstance said...

Zelda You can read about Charlie in Topanga when Briggs was producing/housing Neil Young and Crazy Horse in the biography Shakey by Jimmy Mcdonough...

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Thanks St ... much-appreciated!

Robert Hendrickson said...

SAINT: that's MY point !!!!

AND it really "ignited" a few weeks ago when CHRIS was making a lot of noise riding an all terrain vehicle in the residential streets around HIS house.

The COPS came to the house and HE would NOT come out THEN either. AFTER that the COPS started buzzing HIS house 2-3 times a day. The message was clear: WE gonna get ya !

Just to show you what a farce YESTERDAY was: There is a Charter "grammar" school right across the street and wouldn't you THINK the COPS would "evacuate" the school, cause hey - there's a crazy BLACK dude barricaded in the house with a "GUN." But NO, everyone here KNEW it was "get the BAD boy" training day.

CHRIS BROWN is the new and updated "Charlie Manson." ONLY this time, the low-life musician wanna'be actually MADE it to the NEW / Re-habbed Beverly Hills.

BTW: Ziggy, I actually laughed out loud. GREAT word play !

DebS said...

Zelda, do you have the 2002 edition of Sanders "The Family"? If so, starting on page 256 and continuing through page 258 Sanders discusses a drug burn theory with various scenarios. On page 258 Sanders writes-

"Robert Beausoleil claimed that Tex Watson and Linda were operating together during those weeks prior to the murders and that the key lies there."

Now, I don't have much faith in the accuracy of Sanders either but it seems that even the addition of Tex and Linda into the mix of a drug burn was not original to Schreck.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Thanks Deb.
I read the original The Family MANY years ago, and have essentially forgotten it's content. I bought a first edition (I wanted to have the chapter on The Process) last week, but haven't got started on it yet (I have to finish Stimson's book first).
Is it worth purchasing a recent edition of The Family? Are there enough additions to warrant it?

DebS said...

Zelda it's only worth getting a recent edition of Sanders book if you can find it cheap! There are quite a few additions to the book though their veracity is iffy.

Manson Mythos said...

@DebS

No, the earliest Mention of th Process came via the a press release put out December 12th, 1969 (yes, that early). You can see it on my old blog.

http://mansonfamilyarchives.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-truth-behind-process-and-link.html

Manson Mythos said...

The press release was put out the 12th, but Deemer made it clear they contacted him before any public mention (which they were most likely behind).

DebS said...

Dennis look at your own documents very closely. The statement signed by Deemer is dated Dec. 17, 1974. Yes, that says Nineteen Seventy Four!

The first page is a press release that was generated by Scientology. Regardless nothing was mentioned in the mainstream press, then about a month after the Dec. 12, 1969 Scientology press release the tabloids picked it up and attempted to link it to Manson, et al.

The press release was actually in response to the Gaul Sharp murders not to Tate LaBianca. Do you have the first and second progress reports for the Gaul Sharp case? If not, I would be happy to email them to you. You will be able to see that all of that Process business morphed from the Gaul Sharp case.

Panamint Patty said...

Patty wants to see the Gaul sharp site on the 2017 tour.

Matt said...

So does Matt. And Marina Habe.

Manson Mythos said...

The Deemer letter is significate only because he mentions Scientology contacted him prior to the release of their Dec. 12, 1969 press release and prior to a Dec. 10th LA Times article. Based on what he writes, it had to be prior to the Gaul/Sharp murders and there is nothing in that press release about that murders. The point of the release was 1. ward off any connection to Manson and 2. implicate The Process and showed "within 24 hours" of the case breaking, they turned over information about them to LAPD.

You said "The first mention of a Process connection with this case came as early as January 11 1970" and I said no, it was a month prior.

HERE is the very first mention of The Process in Mainstream (not tabloid) media and as Deemer says, it was the 10th (BUT remember he said they contact him PRIOR to the 10th and THEY said they turned over info within 24 hours of The Family making the news)

So the point is: Scientology smear champagne.

http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/possible-links-between-tate-scientology-murders-studied/

I know a woman mentioned The Process in regards to Gaul/Sharp. I suspect Scientology was involved in that too. Based on Hubbard's own writings on dealing with opponents of the Church.

Panamint Patty said...

Smear champagne?

St Circumstance said...

Fair Game Policy and they will do much more than smear you lol ;)

Manson Mythos said...

The information in the second Gaul/Sharp linking The Process to the murders was as I remembered it. It came exactly one week after the LA Times articles and the press release. There is no doubt in my mind, the person who gave that information was either in with Scientology or a looney tune influenced by the recent media reports. Which is not a stretch, because the the Process link had to spread like wild fire since books like Satan's Slaves and Inside the Cults all had chapters on The Process and were released in 1970, with information obviously based on media reports.

Manson Mythos said...

To take a quote from the 1970 Inside the Cults:

"A London based cult called The Process suddenly became a household word". (After TLB)

DebS said...

Fair enough Dennis, that particular article did not come up in my searches at newspapers.com . But it is an article with its roots in the Gaul Sharp case and it's no surprise that Deemer would be contacted by Scientology because the Gaul Sharp case was his, he signed the preliminary investigation reports on that case.

The Gaul Sharp murders occurred Nov. 21, 1969. For sure Scientology was doing damage control, first their members were being question about the Gaul Sharp murders and right on the tails of that the arrests of Manson and company and they knew full well that Manson had studied Scientology under Lanier Ramer while at McNeil Island.

Robert Hendrickson said...

The new "People" magazine issue, out Friday, has excerpts from Mike Love's new book which talks about Manson, the Beach Boys and Melcher. Seems even the famous Beach Boys now NEED a name like Charles Manson to SELL their story. OH, the times they are a change'in.


Fiddy 8 said...

So, I went to a concert last weekend at the park directly across from where Dennis drowned, met some locals and explained it all. Ya know, when you meet new people it's probably best not to bring this shit up.

Fiddy 8 said...

The marina concert sucked, some famous latino dance hall act, but then the next day I saw Red Elvises and it was totally awesome.

Fiddy 8 said...

PS. Randy California did not write Stairway...every musician I know agrees - its just a very familiar step down prgression that Randy, despite my extreme admiration of his music, did not write.

Fiddy 8 said...

PPS. I listened to 12 Dreams every day all through summer of 71. Much too fat and and a little too long!

St Circumstance said...

Brian Wilson and Love both have new books coming out and I am waiting on both...

St Circumstance said...

Here is something from Love's:

One of the Beach Boys claimed to have witnessed Charles Manson commit a murder.

The group's co-founder Mike Love, 75, revealed in his new memoir "Good Vibrations" that bandmate Dennis Wilson claimed to have witnessed Charles Manson commit a murder in 1969, People reported.

The singer recounted the shocking friendship between convicted killer Manson and Wilson, who allegedly watched the murderer shoot a man right before his eyes, according to a chapter from the book obtained by People.

"I just saw Charlie take his M16 and blow this black cat [man] in half and stuff him down the well," Wilson allegedly told Love.

St Circumstance said...

It is probably going to be mostly BS stories lol Love is bitter. Here is a little more:


Did Doris Day save her only son from being massacred by Charles Manson's family?

That's a possibility suggested by Beach Boys frontman Mike Love in his new memoir, "Good Vibrations."

According to Love's book, excerpted in this week's People, Day convinced her son -- record producer Terry Melcher, who famously turned down Manson for a recording contract -- to move out of the Benedict Canyon home where actress Sharon Tate and four others were slain by Manson's followers on Aug. 9, 1969.

The book charts what now seems to be the inexplicable, but six-degrees kind of connection between Day, the perky blond actress and singer who was America's top box office star in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and Manson, a sociopathic ex-con who became one of America's most notorious serial killers.

In his book, Melcher suggests that Day, now 94, convinced her son to move out of Cielo Drive and into a beach house in Malibu owned by her. Love said Melcher had told his mother about Manson and his volatile behavior, as well as his "zombie" followers and his habit of brandishing knives.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Terry and Candace moved out of Cielo "very quickly" at or near the end of 1968. As far as I know, the reason for the abrupt departure has never been explained by any party. What Mike Love claims could conceivably be true.

St Circumstance said...

I read, and heard on some 12 part series about the topic that Doris' Ex or someone had piddled away her fortune and Terry and Candace moved into the beach house to help out financially...

St Circumstance said...

Here Zelda :)


As chronicled by Karina Longworth, in her acclaimed Hollywood history podcast, "You Must Remember This," the music industry in L.A. in the late 1960s was a small world but also in upheaval over changing youth tastes in music. Then in his early 20s, Melcher was tasked by Columbia Records to discover the next big thing.

That's where Manson came in, Longworth describes in her 10-part series "Charles Manson's Hollywood." Manson insinuated himself into a friendship with Dennis Wilson, even getting Wilson to let him and his family members live in his Sunset Boulevard house. Manson managed to convince Wilson and Melcher, for a time anyway, that he was some kind hippie philosopher guru and that he possessed raw musical talent.


Longworth said Melcher had other reasons for moving. He had learned that his late producer stepfather, Marty Melcher, had squandered the vast fortune his mother had made as a movie star and singer. Melcher thought moving into her beach house would help her out financially.

Cielodrive.com said...

That's bullshit. Terry didn't even come out to Spahn and audition Charlie until months after they moved out of Cielo Drive.

Ella jo even said Terry had invited them out to the house on the beach.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Thanks again, St.

Robert Hendrickson said...

YOU ALL, via saying things like: "He's lost his marbles" "He talks in code" "I can't understand his cryptic writings" etc. have made ME think - maybe there is something in MY sub-conscious mind that I am NOT consciously aware of.

IE: I think I know something about Doreen Gaul, partly because of WHERE she was found DEAD and when, BUT there is also something MISSING that prevents such knowledge from being relevant in today's reality.

It's like when Bugliosi said: Paul Watkins KNEW about WHO committed the TATE murders and WHY, but HE didn't KNOW that HE knew. Of course, that sounds absolutely CRAZY, but what IF that sort of craziness really does exist in a time and space somewhere between the conscious and sub-conscious THOUGHT ? Maybe that is what we are dealing with HERE concerning the MANSON case - a mix-up between two mental worlds.

????????????

beauders said...

Deb, would you mind emailing me the two Gaul/Sharp reports? It appears I don't have them. My email is beauders@aol.com, thank you.

grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

YOU ALL, via saying things like: "He's lost his marbles" "He talks in code" "I can't understand his cryptic writings" etc. have made ME think - maybe there is something in MY sub-conscious mind that I am NOT consciously aware of

No, often, you are cryptic. I think that part of the reason that people might particularly notice it is because in other matters like LBJ, the Police, Vietnam, Jesus, Bugliosi and religion, your thoughts are simple to detect and pretty clearly expressed.

Maybe that is what we are dealing with HERE concerning the MANSON case - a mix-up between two mental worlds

I'd say that almost goes without saying. The difference being that those on the more countercultural side of things were more than capable of traversing both worlds, having originally been part of the straight world, while the straight world simply demonized, commercialized or subsumed that which it never properly understood as part of it's house training.

grimtraveller said...

ziggyosterberg said...

There's only two reasons why Dennis would let (non-Manson family member) Tex waltz right into his home and give him his own bedroom to live in rent free:
1) He was gay for him
or
2) He was supplying Dennis with drugs


Well, they're the only two you are considering.

The only other asset that Tex had was auto mechanics. Unlike the people at the ranch, Dennis could afford to have his cars fixed by a real mechanic

One could easily make that point regarding drugs. It seems a bit of a stretch that the drummer of the Beach Boys in 1968 would be in a position where he couldn't get drugs and that the day he ran into Tex, all his problems magically disappeared. Tex describes the drug filled scene the day he met Charlie at the house and it was Dean Moorehouse that took him on his first acid trip which doesn't exactly say much for Tex's "Dennis drug supplying" credentials. As Tex put it about Dennis Wilson's pad; "People came and went, a peculiar mix of young dropouts like me, drug dealers, and people in the entertainment business."

One has to ask - Why was Tex, a man with no music background or abilities, hanging out with Wilson & Jakobson and making numerous visits (Terry Melcher's trial testimony) to Melcher's house (Cielo) with them?

It appears Dennis Wilson may just have been......{shock, horror} generous. It seems there were a number of people living in his place on and off, not just the Family. Tex mentions this in his book as does John Gilmour in "The garbage people." Tex, after picking up Dennis and taking him home and meeting Dean Moorehouse and the Family and getting stoned got an invite to pop by any time and swim in the pool as was the spirit of the times. Once he'd taken up Dennis on the offer once, like many people onto what they see as something good, he had no reason not to continue ! Paul Watkins made the interesting point that Charlie guilt tripped Dennis for a long time, which again isn't unusual. Lots of pop stars were living in that duality of the spirit of the age fuelled sometimes by not a little guilt at their wealth and establishment trappings. Tex again; "It was a strange time in Hollywood. It had become chic to play the hippie game, and the children of the big stars partied with gurus like Dean and Charlie and listened to them and bought drugs from them and took hippie kids to bed and let them drive their expensive cars and crash in their Bel Air mansions."
While I don't see anything suspicious or feel cynical about Dennis Wilson picking up an oddment of nonentities, you're right to observe that while the Manson/Wilson axis has been flogged to death, comparatively little of the Wilson/Watson one has been explored. But maybe it's because that relationship was rather flat beer as opposed to the potent elixir of the primary act.

I'm sure that Dennis had other reasons for ditching Tex

It seems a whole load of people, both Family connected and not got ditched when the lease was up. It's interesting that Tex reckons Dennis was avoiding him and some of his crowd, not something you'd do if you had been burned. You'd think it would be the other way around !

Tex's bloodlust/psychosis at Cielo couldn't have been entirely accidental

I don't think it was accidental at all but the actual moment was spontaneous. I do think that having been under wraps {like a lot of people that keep it under wraps all their life} for a period, Cielo was his moment to let that progressively cooped up genie out of the bottle. Easy in retrospect but one can almost trace the progression from working the airline to shooting Steve Parent.

grimtraveller said...

Manson Mythos said...

As for not listening to Manson, he has actually revealed more than his co-defendants

That depends on your definition of "revealed" and "more." It's true that some dismiss things he's said in relation to his innocence. "They" might dismiss him a little more to your satisfaction if "they" took on board the various things he has said.
In the end it comes down to whether one believes him or not. Even in a tome like "Goodbye Helter skelter" which is designed wholly to present his view, he lands himself firmly in the shit on each one of the murders he was convicted for, with his own words. He actually even did this at his trial but because the jury was out, there was no point in picking him up on it. I'm not sure anyone noticed it as I've never heard anyone ever mention it.

The problem is the way this case was presented in the media and trial, people are forever under a spell and cannot think about it without putting Charlie front and center

At the risk of running over old, well worn ground, the case simply presented the sum total of what came forth and the simple, inescapable reality and factual history is that even before the guys that put the case together were on it, Charlie was appearing front and centre. He was front and centre to the likes of those that had been there {Kasabian, Atkins}, he was front and centre to those that barely knew him {Springer}, he was front and centre to those that knew him but weren't hard core inner circle {Lutesinger, Poston, DeCarlo}, he was front and centre to those that had never set eyes on him {Howard, Graham, Zabriske}. He was front and centre as evidenced by the bloody words left at the murder sites. From within 3 days of the LaBianca murder Kasabian had fled because of his front and centredness and was telling others {Jeffrey Jacob, Bob Kasabian, Joe Sage} about that front and centredness. Before they jettisoned any hopes they had of survival, while still admitting they loved and thought the world of him, your two fave raves {Atkins & Van Houten} extolled the very front and centredness of which you speak, regarding life, death and TLB. Granted, the media blew "a little local difficulty" worldwide but they saturated what was already in existence and had been in increasing measure since 1967.

The others were individuals too with their own emotions and interests

And that is precisely why the others ended up getting the gas chamber.

grimtraveller said...

Manson Mythos said...

I seriously doubt he sent them anywhere to carry out a murder mission and trust they could pull it off

So if you go along with George Stimson's statement that he "told" them to "do something" to get Bobby out of jail, what do you suppose he had in mind ?
I will say this in regard to the Family and the summer of '69 though. For them it seems that killing wasn't viewed as murder. In later days Sandy & Squeaky espoused the concept of snitches and other enemies being "taken care of" and nasty bits of apples being cut out etc. It doesn't seem that they were talking about being seamstresses and orchard workers.....

If they got caught, it could have easily traced back to the ranch

It seems steps were taken to make sure they weren't caught {false clues like glasses, ditching weapons etc}.
Didn't work though.

Harold True is a contradiction, because he'll say Charlie didn't order the murders and isn't a killer, but then say he picked the houses

I suspect Harold True's "Charlie wasn't a killer" bit stemmed more from his disdain for Vincent Bugliosi than anything else. Also, in truth, he wouldn't have had any reason to declare Charlie as some kind of homicidal maniac because he never knew him as being that. I say exactly the same about the 4 kids I used to know well that became murderers. That I refer to them as murderers simply recognizes facts of reality. That True talks about Charlie picking houses does likewise.

It's more interesting that Kasabian was familiar with the house before meeting The Family

Why is it more interesting ? She had been there once. She brought it out not True and until someone tells us otherwise, not a soul has ever said she was there more than once, except Irving Kanarek who said in an interview with Cats that True was Kasabian's drug dealer.

grimtraveller said...

Manson Mythos said...

I think the "Charlie wanted to be a star" idea is as overblown and silly as Helter Skelter

Yeah, the two matters on which there happens to be evidence from other people as well as circumstantially.
Sometimes, one can take events and glean stuff from them. Back in the mid to late 60s, almost anyone that was involved in making records would have been viewed as a star. Dennis Wilson was a drummer in a band that had a pro session drummer playing the drum parts on the records....but he was still viewed as a star. Being a known working/recording/touring musician or singer made one a star in the eyes of pretty much the rest of the population {whether the artist wanted it or not}, so if you were trying to break into that field, it was because you wanted to get somewhere, for whatever reason. The Beatles, Dylan and the West Coast bands {like Airplane, the Dead, Quicksilver, etc} had shown what could be done with the status of being well known and loved and how the many could be reached. So wanting to be a rock star wasn't a derogatory and debased desire by 1966/67. In fact, by then, probably for the first time in modern history, it was becoming a viable career option for young people with a talent that had previously been tolerated as a hobby.
Charlie recorded demos or had auditions on a number of occasions. There was the studio in Van Nuys, there was the stuff for Gary Stromberg at Universal {unless it was the same event}, there was stuff at Brian Wilson's, there were the two times Terry Melcher came down, one of those with Mike Deasy. Why would you be going to all that hassle if you didn't want to go further with your music ? It's not like today where there is a thriving home recording scene. Back then people didn't go through the thing of recording themselves to see what they sounded like because the equipment was expensive and rare. So there was an endgame in mind when one auditioned or was recorded. The way writers like Jeff Guinn make it seem like Charles Manson's desire to get into the biz and yes, become a rock star, was some kind of character defect, makes no sense to me. It wasn't a negative. I understand that Bugliosi used it circumstantially to demonstrate one of the motives but that was the lack of progress not the desire itself.

Charlie clearly did not want to be produced and hated the sterile environment of recording studios

So did {and do} tons of artists down the years. Many, many artists have found it sterile, especially those whose forté is live performance and spontaneity. I have a friend who often struggled even in a home recording set up in my front room. Getting him to repeat things or cut in or overdub or engage in any studio trickery was for him like selling his Mum. Some players even today hate playing to and resist playing to a click track/metronome. But many of the artists that dislike the studio learn to operate within it, even those rebellious avant garde free jazzers who detested commercialism of any kind.

grimtraveller said...


Manson Mythos said...

from what I understand, the thing Gregg and Melcher wanted to do was record The Family and do a movie. But that's a little known fact thus people will never consider THEY might have been more mad at Melcher on top of the fact they felt Charlie was dissed. You know, they were humans with their own hopes and dreams too

Nice try.
It was Jacobson that felt that Charlie needed to be seen to be appreciated musically by the wider public, hence thoughts of filming the Family lifestyle. Obviously I'm reading the wrong books and transcripts because I've not come across anything ever even hinting that any of the women or Steve Grogan were angling to be stars in the music biz.

This was a great way to not only get Manson, but ward off any suspicion these people may have been thinking for themselves and/or had their own personal motives

One would have to prove that they did have their own motives to murder and show that had they not been in the situation they were, that they would have murdered anyway. Do you honestly believe that they would have ? It's a fascinating talking point but would ultimately become like the north and south circular roads which go around the city of London and never end because they just keep leading on to themselves.
By the way, you don't explain just why it was so important to "get" Manson if he wasn't behind the murders. It makes no sense, if they had the killers bang to rights.
Oh yeah, the killers also put him front and centre.....

Buona Fortuna said...

A lot of people genuinely love Charles' music (and Bobby's) - just for the music and not because of who they are. I think because of your feelings on the case and the people involved you feel that he had no talent, but that's actually only your opinion.