Thursday, September 1, 2016

Beach Boy Mike Love alleges bandmate watched Charles Manson carry out murder

By Nicole Bitette - New York Daily News

 The Beach Boys in 1964. From left, Dennis Wilson, Brian Wilson, Mike Love, Al Jardine and Carl Wilson. (Hulton Archive/Getty Images)

One of the Beach Boys claimed to have witnessed Charles Manson commit a murder.

The group's co-founder Mike Love, 75, revealed in his new memoir "Good Vibrations" that bandmate Dennis Wilson claimed to have witnessed Charles Manson commit a murder in 1969, People reported.

The singer recounted the shocking friendship between convicted killer Manson and Wilson, who allegedly watched the murderer shoot a man right before his eyes, according to a chapter from the book obtained by People.

"I just saw Charlie take his M16 and blow this black cat [man] in half and stuff him down the well," Wilson allegedly told Love.

Charles Manson is escorted to and from Los Angeles Court Dec. 11, 1969 for arraignment on conspiracy murder charges in connection with the slayings of actress Sharon Tate and seven others. (FILE/AP)
The gruesome tale surfaced after Wilson spent some time at Spahn Ranch in the summer of 1969, the property where the Manson and his followers lived. Wilson had shown up to his brother Brian's studio that August appearing "visibly shaken," according to Love.

Manson was a singer-songwriter who knew the Beach Boy's drummer because they ran in a close circle in the L.A. music industry.

A retired Los Angeles County prosecutor who worked on the case denounced the book's claims, noting the Beach Boy's recollection of events don't add up.

"I've prosecuted four Tate-LaBianca murder trials and attended sixty parole hearings [of Manson family members] and I've never heard that story before," Stephen Kay told People. "If it was true, I would have heard it before."

Only one body was ever discovered on the property. Skeletal remains of a ranch hand named Donald "Shorty" Shea was found in 1977.

"I don't remember there actually being a well on the property," Kay told the mag. "And if there was one, I doubt they would have thrown a body down there. They would have buried him like they did Shorty."



The events left Dennis — who notably abused alcohol and drugs over the years — crippled in fear, according to Love.

"Dennis was too frightened to go to the police," Wilson writes. "I think he was just hoping that Manson and his family would disappear."

 Wilson died in 1983 when he was just 39 years old. He was discovered in the waters off Marina del Rey after drunkenly diving in the frigid surf. Love believed his bandmate was never able to rid of his guilt for being so close to the horrific crimes.

"Dennis carried that guilt with him for the last 14 years of his life," Love said.

Manson was convicted of conspiring to commit seven murders in 1971, including that of pregnant actress Sharon Tate and Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. The 81-year-old is serving nine consecutive life sentences at Corcoran State Prison in Corcoran, Ca.


Thanks to Joe Col for the tip!






81 comments:

Robert Hendrickson said...

There is a REAL and important story here regarding music, Manson and surfers who can't surf, BUT let me just say this for now. An M16 rifle is a U.S. "military weapon" used for maiming enemy foot soldiers. The bullet projectials are "full metal" and NOT "expanders" or "hollow points." So unless YOU literally riddle the mid-section of a body with a hundred or more M16 bullets, you cannot blow it in half.

As I remember, hollow points and expanders are even out-lawed by the Geneva convention. So it is more likely that some new college graduate, doing a summer job for the publisher. came up with this cockamamie story.

OR maybe the "Black Cat" was actually a Panther (and I mean one of those four legged things from the jungle).

Suze said...

Some people will say anything to sell a book.

Hi Patty! I'm sporting my new profile pic. LOL.

Panamint Patty said...

One eared Shrek! Woot!

Farflung said...

I would go on to ask, how many have ever seen a well? Be honest, you probably turn on a tap and water has magically appeared. End of thought process.

Wells are typically cased with steel from 3 to 8 inches in diameter, depending upon depth, and the size of pump.

Either way, how would one stuff a body down a hole that size, assuming the pump, electrics, and pipe has been removed. Additionally there would be no concrete plug, or welded steel cap. Please.

Matt said...

So, they had an M16 lying around Tex & the girls went up to Cielo with a Buntline and some knives. Got it.


St Circumstance said...

Im less and less enthusiastic about this book versus Brian's, but that's the issue. Love has always been so jealous of Brian lol. He has to make some fantastic stories to be interesting because everyone wants to hear from Brian who was the genius...

or that's how I feel maybe, but Mike Love always seems so starved for attention

( Disclaimer- Beach Boys are among my top 3 favorite bands- I like all of them)

Manson Mythos said...

Mike Love told Howard Stern the same exact story back in 1992 and I assumed he was either embellishing or just confused about the Crowe incident. Which is what I believe is the case.

Considering that Charlie had a nervious breakdown over the Crowe shooting and didn't even want members of his so-called Family to know about it, I seriously doubt he so confidently shot a black guy with an M-16 in front of Dennis Wilson.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Them M16's make a helluva racket in a canyon area. No Tex, you're taking the Buntline. It might take two or three attempts, but it usually fires eventually.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

I have no doubt Dennis felt a tremendous amount of guilt the rest of his life. He had said he knew the real reason for the murders, but would take it to the grave with him.

Fiddy 8 said...

There is no frigid surf in the marina. That's why it's a marina.

Fiddy 8 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beauders said...

Mike Love wants to sell the book and tarnish Dennis Wilson, who he hated, at the same time. The man has been dead since 1985 get over it.

penny lane said...

off topic but manson related....has anyone read American Girls ?

starviego said...

Charlie should sue for libel.

Farflung said...

"The poor cook he caught the fits.

And threw away all my grits.

And then he took up, and ate all of my corn."

Am I the only one vexed by these lyrics since 1966?

I mean a sloop has a first mate AND a cook! Then some passenger laments the loss of grits, which are corn, and how the cook went on to eat all of his corn, but not the corn grits he threw out?

This was one very crowded, and corn polluted sloop. No wonder Dennis jumped off his sloop in December.

Fiddy 8 said...

Farflung, Dennis' yacht was confiscated by his manager, the deal was if Dennis cleaned up he could get his yacht back. When Dennis drowned he was visiting his old neighbors, a quart or two of vodka for breakfast, rock star style, his yacht wasn't there at the time.

Farflung said...

Thanks for the correction Fiddy.

I was careless in my response, probably due to the grits and corn lyrics haunting my very soul.

I mean, why would you put the cook in charge of grits AND corn? It just makes no sense.... Or does it?

Fiddy 8 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert Hendrickson said...

The REAL question is: WHY is there a book on the Beach Boys by Mike Love at all? Do the Boys NEED money, publicity, notoriety, or what. AND why does a book NEED the name Charlie Manson to SELL copies?

Well, the times they have a changed. Because of ALL the music file sharing (pirating) these old time bands actually have to go on the road AGAIN - just to keep-up THEIR upper-middle class way of life STYLES. BUT in order to compete for concert halls or even state fair play dates, these entertainers must NOW stand-out in the crowded field.

AND a guy named Frankie Vallie has set the bar so high (hit play the Jersey Boys and movie by Clint Eastwood) that WITHOUT a "new" song, these old bands are ending up in smoke filled night clubs with empty beer bottles flying about.

So the "book" thing is really about praying for a movie deal, which can put them back on a stage that doesn't creek.

BUT the "new" generation has NO idea WHO the Beach Boys even are, except THEY do know who Charles Manson is. Hense the front cover of People magazine displays the caption "Charlie Manson and the Beach Boys."

AS for Charlie Manson and his M16 rifle, have YOU seen a picture of Mr. Manson's M1 'tank' yet?

JDB1973 said...

Thanks for the credit, Matt. Thought this would be an interesting topic for some here. I'm a long time lurker here, posted rarely. Would just like to thank all of those who have taken the time to share their info on this subject.
As for this article, no doubt it's made up bullshit on Mike's part to sell some books. There was an interview with him in rolling Stone about two months back. The man comes across as an egotistical jerk living off of Brian's talent and vision. My opinion, anyway. And if you've not seen it, I recommend watching Love & Mercy. Fantastic film.

JDB1973 said...

By the way, that JDB1973 is me, Joe Col. Not sure how to change the ID, I must have created that years ago. Thus ...

Matt said...

Joe, at the extreme right hand corner of the blog click on "Sign In". On the next page you'll be able to change your Blogger profile by clicking on the triangle in the top right corner next to your name.

St Circumstance said...

Great Movie Love and Mercy!!

Dreath said...

Sloop John B

Found this on line:

Also known as "I Wanna Go Home" and "John B Sails," the song originated in the Bahamas.

Carl Sandburg collected an early version from John & Evelyn McCutcheon of Treasure Island, West Indies where, according to Sandburg, "time & usage have given this song almost the dignity of a national anthem around Nassau. The weathered ribs of the historic craft lie imbedded in the sand at Governor's Harbor, whence an expedition, especially sent up for the purpose in 1926, extracted a knee of horseflesh & a ring-bolt. These relics are now preserved & built into the Watch Tower".

An interesting theory is that the sloop's bad luck was due to its name. "John B," which, in Afro-Carribean culture, sounds like "jumby" - a West African term referring to the undead creature that has been anglicized to "zombie."

Not that this explains the 'corn dilemma'.



orwhut said...

St Circumstance said... Love has always been so jealous of Brian lol.


People say the same thing about Paul and John. It seems to be true.

St Circumstance said...

I wish I could hold that note like Brian does at the end of "In my room"

to the dismay of everyone around me I try all the time lol

orwhut said...

Farf,
I get your point and don't think Charlie threw anyone down a well. Concerning well size, I know of 5 wells of at least 30 inches across on approximately 700 acres of farm land. Though two have been filled in in recent years because of liability issues. There are plenty of them around.

Manson Mythos said...

Google "Beach Boys". All of the "in the news" stories about his book are about the Manson revelations (more like fiction). Ironic that as much as they go out of their way to malign Charlie, 47 years later and he is the "selling point" of their memoir. Yet a lot of people are focusing on how much money they supposedly costed Dennis. While the public overlooks they used his music and now they only way they can make a little cash is by evoking his name.

Not a good band by any stretch of the imagination. They went from bubblegum for teenage girls and surfers (which I'm sure was lame by the late 60s) to trying to be as cool as the late 60s' Beatles and falling flat on their faces.

Charlie is actually the lucky one. If everything worked out by the general public's definition, he might have ended up in that "Kokomo" video with them. Personally, I'd rather be in prison and the boogeyman of America than suffer such a fate.

As Rose Tattoo said: "Nice Boys Don't Play Rock N' Roll". This is why the younger generation knows Manson but don't give two shits about Mike Love and his silly yacht outfits.

St Circumstance said...

Not a good band? We have to disagree there. The music was simple early- as was the Beatles. Granted the Beatles developed to a much higher level, and much more talent in George(way under-rated) John and Paul as contributors- than the Beach Boys had in just Brian...

But they were at least a good band no? I love so many of those songs and for a guy growing up in the early 70's in the northeast- they sang about the life I dreamed about. They encapsulated a lifestyle with those songs.

Just stretch your imagination a little bit lol They were a good band.

It seems several imaginations were stretched even if you will not:


The group routinely appears in the upper reaches of ranked lists such as "The Top 1000 Albums of All Time."[341] Many of the group's songs and albums including The Beach Boys Today! (1965), Smiley Smile (1967), Sunflower (1970), and Surf's Up (1971) are featured in several lists devoted to the greatest of all time.[342] The 1966 releases Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations frequently rank among the top of critics' lists of the greatest albums and singles of all time.[342] In 2004, Pet Sounds was preserved in the National Recording Registry by the Library of Congress for being "culturally, historically, and aesthetically significant."[92] Their recordings of "In My Room", "Good Vibrations", "California Girls" and the entire Pet Sounds album have been inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame.[343] On Acclaimed Music, "Good Vibrations" is ranked the third best song of all time, while "God Only Knows" is ranked twenty-first; the group itself is ranked eleven in its 1000 most recommended artists of all time.[342]

In 1966 and 1967, reader polls conducted by the UK magazine NME crowned the Beach Boys as the world's number one vocal group, ahead of the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. In 1974, the Beach Boys were awarded "Band of the Year" by Rolling Stone. On December 30, 1980, the Beach Boys were awarded a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, located at 1500 Vine Street. The group was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1988. Ten years later they were selected for the Vocal Group Hall of Fame. In 2001, the group received a Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award. In 2004, Rolling Stone ranked the Beach Boys number 12 on its list of the 100 Greatest Artists of All Time. Brian Wilson was inducted into the UK Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in November 2006.



Those damn facts lol they will do it every time :)

Sam Smith said...

Love's hair weave must be too tight.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

So now what is probably a short mention of the Manson M16 'incident' becomes the book's selling point? The Manson hype machine is working overtime again.

Fiddy 8 said...

Brian Wilson is among the most gifted composers of the 20th century - from any genre. *God Only Knows* is one of the most beautiful melodies ever written.

JDB1973 said...

I agree, St Circumstance. The early stuff was hit or miss. Being an east coast soul, surfing imagery didn't really do much for me, even being a somewhat frequent visitor to the Jersey shore. But there is no denying the harmonies and vocals of Brian & Carl were quite sublime. God Only Knows is one of the greatest songs of all time, for that alone I'd rank them a great band.
Will agree that Kokomo was absolute shit. John Stamos wasn't saving that one ...
Also, George was by far the coolest Beatle.

Joe Col said...

Thanks for the tip on the name change, Matt

St Circumstance said...

I just got back from Jersey Shore lol. It's nice to meet you Joe - sort of lol :)

St Circumstance said...

I meant sort of meet you lol. I'm still so awkward at this internet stuff.

Dreath said...


Paul McCartney: "It was later...it was Pet Sounds that blew me out of the water. First of all, it was Brian's writing. I love the album so much. I've just bought my kids each a copy of it for their education in life---I figure no one is educated musically 'til they've heard that album. I was into the writing and the songs.

Paul McCartney: "No one is educated musically 'til they've heard Pet Sounds... It is a total, classic record that is unbeatable in many ways."

George Martin: "Without Pet Sounds, Sgt. Pepper wouldn't have happened... Pepper was an attempt to equal Pet Sounds."

grimtraveller said...

Dreath said...

George Martin: "Without Pet Sounds, Sgt. Pepper wouldn't have happened... Pepper was an attempt to equal Pet Sounds."

That's highly debatable and one of those great soundbites that just does not stand up when you examine what big George is actually saying.
Without a doubt "Pet Sounds" was an important mid 60s album and as a bass player Paul McCartney was hugely influenced by Brian Wilson {and equally by Motown's James Jamerson} at the time. But in truth, one of the things that made the music of the 60s so unique was the cross fertilization that went went on both within the UK and USA and across the pond. There was tremendous to~ing and fro~ing of ideas, technology, influences and genres and the Beatles in particular were true masters at assimilating what other artists were doing and sending it out in their utterly idiosyncratic way as well as being wildly original and having 3 crazily gifted writers. If there's any album that can be said to be responsible for 'Pepper' it's "Revolver." But even that's debatable because so much actually went into what eventually became 'Pepper.'
But Harrison & Lennon weren't particularly under the Beach Boys or "Pet Sounds" spell.

Manson Mythos said...

All of the "in the news" stories about his book are about the Manson revelations (more like fiction). Ironic that as much as they go out of their way to malign Charlie, 47 years later and he is the "selling point" of their memoir

I prefer to be realistic. A 60s Beach boy or a Beach Boy biographer could not write a book on their life and music and not mention Charles Manson, any more than anyone writing a book about Charles Manson could leave out the Beach Boys. They used one of his songs and didn't credit him for it ! That fact alone makes the two have a symbiotic relationship. I'm not so sure it's a "selling point" and those to whom it is are more likely to be either be aficionados of the case or people of a certain age in relation to the 60s. Methinks.
Come to think of it, the same argument could be made about the Beatles. A retrospective on them must record the God like status they were accorded and how people all over the USA and UK poured over their lyrics as though they were holy writ. Which must therefore at the very least mention the Family. And any book on Charlie and the Family can't leave out the Beatles and how the Family lived in "the yellow submarine", lived magical mystery tours and absorbed "Helter Skelter." It's more symbiosis than sales.

I assumed he was either embellishing or just confused about the Crowe incident. Which is what I believe is the case

That thought crossed my mind too. Although Love is adamant that Dennis told him he personally witnessed it.

Not a good band by any stretch of the imagination

I think they were a good band once the competition from the UK gave them reason to be and they came up with some lovely stuff. But like many bands, they didn't sustain it beyond a few years and when all is said and done, their vital years don't stretch far.

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

I'm less and less enthusiastic about this book versus Brian's, but that's the issue

I had his supposed autobiography "Wouldn't it be nice" for years and just as I was limbering up to read it, the news broke that he hadn't really had much to do with it and it came out in the years when he was in a bit of a foggy daze. Apparently he himself said that he'd never read it, then I heard that he was working on an autobiog so I chucked it. I've just pre~ordered the new one so it should arrive some time in October.
For some reason, I'm not interested in Mike Love or his book. The only two circumstances I could see myself reading it would be if someone gave it to me for free or if I were in jail because like the years I lived in Nigeria, I'd read anything published. Even women's magazines and tomes on astro analysis.

Suze said...

Some people will say anything to sell a book

I wonder. Isn't it more the case that if one is interested in a person, the interested party will read what that person puts out because one doesn't know exactly everything that will be in it ? That's why I never read serialized stories in newspapers. If I dig someone, I'll get their book {when they write one}. Just them writing would get me to buy it.

Manson Mythos said...

Considering that Charlie had a nervous breakdown over the Crowe shooting and didn't even want members of his so-called Family to know about it..

I guess there are different perspectives on this. In his book, George kind of says the opposite, that actually, what happened that summer stemmed as a direct result of the Family seeing how far Charlie would go for them in shooting Lotsapoppa.


Fiddy 8 said...

Leave it to Grim to say he is the only one who knows what George Martin and Paul McCartney really meant by their own historical quotes.

Fiddy 8 said...

I kinda wish this blog had an ignore feature.

orwhut said...

Hey guys,
The White Album got Ringo into the Guinness Book of World Records.
http://www.antimusic.com/news/16/September/02Ringo_Starr_Lands_A_Guinness_World_Record.shtml

Fiddy 8 said...

In the year 2525 we will have forgotten about Manson - but will still listen to Brian Wilson's music.

Dreath said...

The full interview with Paul McCartney: http://albumlinernotes.com/Paul_McCartney_Comments.html

Draw your own conclusions.

If you assume Paul was, indeed the 'director' of Sgt. Pepper as he claims and if he was, in fact, influenced to that extent by Pet Sounds then George Martin's comment seems directly in line.

And, of course Brian Wilson seemed willing to also give credit where credit was due: "Rubber Soul blew my mind," Brian Wilson says. "When I heard Rubber Soul, I said, 'That's it. That's all. That's all folks.' I said, 'I'm going to make an album that's really good, I mean really challenge me.' I mean, I love that fucking album, I cherish that album." Pet Sounds followed.

And here is George Martin's interview in full, so you can form your own opinions:

http://www.albumlinernotes.com/George_Martin_Comments.html

And to keep it relevant to this blog....

Without Pet Sounds there is no Sgt. Pepper.

Without Sgt. Pepper there is no White Album.

Without Dennis Wilson there is no Terry Melcher.

Without Terry Melcher there is no 10050 Cielo Drive.

Without the Beach Boys there is no Pet Sounds and no Dennis Wilson.

So clearly there is only one possible explanation for the whole thing....

God only knows the Beach Boys are responsible for the whole thing. Case closed.

Dreath said...

Fiddy 8: you're right and you dropped a Zager and Evans reference!

Fiddy 8 said...

It was all about hitchiking I guess, without hitchiking Manson never meets Dennis. Which reminds me, has anyone ever come forward to say they gave the Waverly crew their hitchike ride back to ranch?

Fiddy 8 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fiddy 8 said...

In his 1984 interview with Playboy, McCartney said:

"I wrote that as a kind of Beach Boys parody. And "Back in the USA" was a Chuck Berry song, so it kinda took off from there. I just liked the idea of Georgia girls and talking about places like the Ukraine as if they were California, you know?..."

ziggyosterberg said...


Zelda Formaldehyde said...

So now what is probably a short mention of the Manson M16 'incident' becomes the book's selling point?

He also has a chapter on his hat collection.


Dreath said...

So clearly there is only one possible explanation for the whole thing....

God only knows the Beach Boys are responsible for the whole thing. Case closed.


We need to build a time machine to go back in time and kill the The Four Freshmen before Brian hears them. It's our only hope.


Fiddy 8 said...

Leave it to Grim to say he is the only one who knows what George Martin and Paul McCartney really meant by their own historical quotes.

Grim is a polymath. He's an expert on pretty much everything.


He doesn't know shit about home recording, though.

Fiddy 8 said...

Back in the USSR, you don't know how lucky you are

Fiddy 8 said...

Dreath, Manson aside, I think the competition between Brian Wilson and Lennon-McCartney is the most interesting competition in rock history...its so frickin incredible how Manson interjected himself in between that and all this happend.

Fiddy 8 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fiddy 8 said...

The Beatles and the Beach Boys had nothing to do with this - it was Glenn Miller and *That Old Black Magic*

penny lane said...

Rose Tattoo.?? as in Angry Anderson..??

Dreath said...

Ziggy said: We need to build a time machine to go back in time and kill the The Four Freshmen before Brian hears them. It's our only hope.

God, I forgot about the Four Freshmen influence! Now I'll have to rework the whole motive bit.

Farflung said...

Orwhut,

You're correct about the existance of large diameter wells. But I inferred from the syntax of the quote, that one would not need to "stuff" a freshly halved corpse down a 30 inch well.

The state keeps vigorous records on wells (oil, water, and gas). Where's the search for the remains in a well that Manson, and Wilson would have access to?

Seems like a very finite search criteria. LA isn't long on water resources, hence the Owens Valley project.

I was just using a little critical thinking, and making a few narrow (to me) assumptions.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Stephen KAY, the Prosecutor says Dennis Wilson was likely given LSD at the Spahn ranch and just THOUGHT he saw Manson shoot a Black Man. I agree, but does that explain the M16? YES, because "M16" and Vietnam War go hand in hand. AND Denis was AVOIDING the draft just like the Laural Canyon musicians crowd.

With halucinagentic drugs Dennis's INNER brain could have been easily tapped. AND Wilson's "experience" could have been during HIS primary indoctrination session. of course, then you get into WHY was it a BLACK man?

Kind'a like WHY was it a "WHITE" album? TRUE subliminals mixed with DRUGS can make for VERY dangerous situations. Like every time you SEE a "many words" re-dacted government document, that means - WE don't want YOU to know the "whole" TRUTH.

orwhut said...

Farf,
If Charlie killed anyone with an M16 I'll owe you and him a cup of coffee. If he disposed of him in a well, I'll owe Mike Love one too and I'll throw in a slice of apple pie.

Sime's World said...

I wonder if Mr. Love will reveal his own dalliances with a certain Family member at Dennis' house?

grimtraveller said...

Dreath said...

Draw your own conclusions

I have done. But some folk here don't seem to like that.


ziggyosterberg said...

He doesn't know shit about home recording, though

Not a bean. His total ignorance is semi legendary.

Dreath said...

If you assume Paul was, indeed the 'director' of Sgt. Pepper as he claims

That depends on what he means by "the director." It is true that Harrison was moving off in an Indianesque direction and Lennon later said that he had been looking for a reason to leave the band from '66. But they were still contributing songs and contributing to each others songs and fighting for quality. On the album there are 5 exclusively McCartney songs, 3 Lennon ones, a Harrison one {"Only a Northern song" was recorded for the album but left off} which at the time was the longest Beatle song they'd done and 3 very jointly {J&P} written ones. The album sessions kicked off in '66 with "Strawberry Fields forever" a very Lennon song. This inspired Mac to reply with "Penny Lane," some of which, lyrically, was contributed by Lennon. Instrumentally, the album carried on where "Revolver" left off but had a larger scope {in the songs of all 3 Beatles}. But if you go right back to "A hard days night" and it's 12 string electric guitar, each successive Beatle album {the English, intended versions, not the bastardized Capitol versions} pushed the frontiers in terms of new instruments. The experimentation with known studio techniques and newly made up ones carried on from "Revolver" and indeed, became their way of doing things until after the White album.
Paul McCartney isn't this saccharine balladeer from a bygone age. He was an innovative and important part of the progression of 20th century music. To say that he was the Beatles' musical director is, in my opinion, like saying that it's the butter that makes a sponge cake. I don't think it's pushing it to say that he tried to be. Harrison & Lennon later said in effect, they resisted this.
The Beatles' official biographer Hunter Davies was with them for bits of the writing and recording of Pepper and his descriptions of their sessions show neither Lennon nor Mac were driving the bus alone, but rather, they were a symbiosis. The idea of an alter ego band was definitely McCartney's but as Lennon said, "Pepper is called the first concept album but it doesn't go anywhere. All my contributions to the album have absolutely nothing to do with this idea of Sgt Pepper & his band; but it works coz we said it worked & that's how the album appeared. But it was not as put together as it sounds except for Sgt Pepper introducing Billy Shears and the so called reprise. Every other song could have been on any other album."

if he was, in fact, influenced to that extent by Pet Sounds then George Martin's comment seems directly in line

Paul was heavily influenced by "Pet sounds." And by avant garde artists like AMM, Stockhausen and Cage. And by out there film makers and painters. Two excellent tomes that give a real insight into the influences of the period are Miles' virtually official biography of Paul, "Many years from now" and this superb internet book that really should get published but which I'm glad is free, "Abracadabra: The Making of the Beatles' "Revolver" by Ray Newman.
I never disputed the influence of "Pet Sounds" or it's importance in the Beatles scheme of things. I dispute the phrase/notion "Without Pet Sounds, Sgt. Pepper wouldn't have happened."

grimtraveller said...

Fiddy 8 said...

Leave it to Grim to say he is the only one who knows what George Martin and Paul McCartney really meant by their own historical quotes

Cor blimey, did grimy tabla dare to be so foolhardy as to actually interpret the words of big George and mighty Macca ?

OFF WITH HIS HEAD !!
And let the crows peck at whatever remains.....

grimtraveller said...

Fiddy 8 said...

Leave it to Grim to say he is the only one who knows what George Martin and Paul McCartney really meant by their own historical quotes

I know, whatever was he thinking ?
Oh that's right, he couldn't have been. If he'd been thinking, he would never dare disagree with something that someone as esteemed as big George said. He wouldn't raise his eyebrows at anything Mighty Macca said. He would totally have ignored everything he'd read since '76 from Macca on his life, music, specific songs and albums. If he was thinking. He wouldn't take into account that Macca said of the Sgt Pepper album that it was "our 'Freak Out'" {referring to the Mothers of Invention's 1966 debut}. He'd just ignore that. After all, big George has spoken.
But he wasn't thinking. So because of that, silly boy blue that he is, he'd take on board what all the Beatles have said over a number of years and he might find himself in the same situation as those people that follow the Charles Manson saga, with lots of different things said about the same events, sometimes even from the same people. But he'd be so silly trying to balance all of that and to consider that sometimes, soundbites sound nice but need to be examined and weighed up and tested vigourously before being accepted. Here's a good one to ignore, maybe he should have done that too; it's Beatle Paul talking about Sgt Pepper & big George ¬> "It was a piss off for us because we'd put our heart and soul into it, all this work, and not to detract from George, but it was not good enough that he should get the credit. I mean, this was not George's direction. However much George helped, and he was massive on that album, it was our direction." Later on in the sentence he goes on to say 'when he was doing his TV programme on Pepper he asked me "Do you know what caused Pepper ?" I said "In one word, George, drugs, pot." And George said "No, no. But you weren't on it all the time." "Yes we were." Sgt Pepper was a drug album.'
This, in his official biography, culled from interviews between 1 & 5 years after he told an interviewer in Japan "If records had a director within a band, I sort of directed Pepper."
It's been said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Someone should add a good memory to that. Methinks.

I kinda wish this blog had an ignore feature

A smart cookie like you doesn't need that.

Dreath said...

So clearly there is only one possible explanation for the whole thing....
God only knows the Beach Boys are responsible for the whole thing. Case closed


I read the news today, oh boy ! The case has just been reopened. Brian Wilson has admitted Rubber Soul begat Pet Sounds. So it's the English's fault after all. You missed some important evidence, Dreath ! Whodathunkit ?


Sime's World said...

I've always had a theory that McCartney kept more than close tabs on the Beach Boys during their so called competitive period. While we know he attended a few Beach Boys "Smile" sessions in early 1967, acetates of the group were sent over to London via Derek Taylor. I've always felt that the musical orgasm end of "A Day In The Life" was directly inspired by the arrangement in the "Fire" track (Mrs O'Leary's Cow). Mind you, no one else has made the connection, so perhaps it's just me! x

ziggyosterberg said...


The Mike Love - Howard Stern interview from 1992 that Manson Mythos mentioned. He talks about Manson for a few minutes...Dennis picked Charlie up hitchhiking....."Tex Beausooloo"...yada yada.

ziggyosterberg said...


Dreath said...

God, I forgot about the Four Freshmen influence! Now I'll have to rework the whole motive bit.

Convicted murderer Phil Spector was also a big influence on Brian. I'm starting to see a pattern here. I'm working on a little theory of my own :

Dennis + Manson + Brian + Spector = Carl Wilson was the Zodiac Killer?

Matt said...

I think you are onto something, Ziggy. Someone call John Walsh.


Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Carl was too fat to be the Zodiac Killer; he couldn't run fast enough to catch anyone. Maybe it was David Marks, he had a lot of time in his hands and he was slim.

Dreath said...

Ziggy is correct. I can speak to this as in 2005 while flying from Cincinnati to Paris I sat next to Terry Melcher and he told me this:

Melcher: "Don't you understand? It all comes down to the three Koreans. The gardeners at Cielo, LaBianca and Wilson's were all Koreans. All three were using herbicides and pesticides that harmed the environment. Manson sent his cronies there to avenge a a deal gone bad (his first attempt to join the Beach Boys) and to protect the environment. Polanski even confirmed all this.

In Chinatown the gardner is Korean. You have to understand how Polanski speaks 'Manson speak' through his films. The guy in charge of the water ends up drowned. And remember the glasses?

The Korean gardner in Chinatown finds glasses in the koi pool. There were glasses left at Cielo. Glasses that look a lot like these: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/309904018080796045/

Manson never intended to harm anyone. He thought he was sending representatives to renegotiate his joining the band directly with Brian. He was trying to cut me out of the middle and knew Sharon Tate knew Jay Sebring who cut Sinatra's hair. Sinatra, of course, knew my mom: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/208150813999752070/ and had mob connections that were going to be useful both to shut me up and get Mike Love out of the way. Manson was to replace Love, that's why Love hates him still.

Tex was supposed to set up a meeting between Manson and Brian at Sinatra's house and use Sebring to carry the message.

But it all fell apart because while Sinatra was supposed to be at Cielo that night at the last minute he begged off and went to the other party where everyone else went. Then it all went bad when Tex and the gang went off script. You see they knew if they lost the creative force of their front man that their band Family Jams was going to be a one shot wonder so they killed everyone."

That is exactly what Melcher told me. He said he was saving this for his own book. Oh and he also said Carl is the Zodiac.

Dreath said...

Grim,

Just read all that.

I think you missed my point and headed off somewhere else. I'll try to be clearer next time.

My post was not intended to focus on the Beatles and Sgt. Pepper.

It was a response to whether the Beach Boys can be summed up as being a bubblegum band trying to be as cool as the Beatles.

I was trying to point out that at least one of the Beatles didn't feel that way and that Pet Sounds is a bit further back in the chain of musical events chronologically to be written off as trying to copy the Beatles while noting the friendly rivalry.

The rest was an attempt at humor and an effort show how absurd it is to rely upon statements by dead witnesses reported by other witnesses who allegedly heard the dead man's statement. Mike Love needs Manson to get a headline in People and sell his book so he quotes Dennis who can't respond. Free PR. And unfortunately, effective.

Millions of people will read this (including my wife, yesterday) and say 'did you know the Beach Boys saw Manson commit a murder?' (like my wife, yesterday). That concerns me.

Manson Mythos said...

The stuff with the oriental is just him speaking in code/riddles. In that particular interview with Bill Scanlan Murphy he took a certain approach where discussed everything from the point of view of war (Bobby was the Frenchmen)and that no war ever ended and crime is an extension of war. Why the whole thing with Melcher was an extension of the Korean war, I don't know.

I have one of the few snippets of audio where Melcher talks about The Family (Murphy was also the interviewer there) and he oddly spoke somewhat highly of their overall package.

ziggyosterberg said...


Dreath's theory is very convincing.

But now that I've seen a police sketch of the Zodiac Killer, I have a new theory on who the Zodiac Killer was/is :

You can read about it in my new book


PS. Don't mind the question mark. My lawyer (Dreath) advised me to add that, to avoid potential lawsuits.

Dreath said...

Ziggy: my God you are right!

544 page forward- priceless.

You got me again (laughter) thanks!

Robert Hendrickson said...

I kind'a SEE how these great musicians can easily influence one another, so WHY can't folks SEE how easy it was for the Queen's WHITE supremeist "Beatles" to influence Charles Manson with THEIR revolutionary "WHITE" album?

I mean, any historian can tell you, the Brits were always up to making slaves of those who were NOT WHITE and hey would Helter Skelter NOT be the perfect solution to an old inherent problem?

Now, PHIL SPECTOR, that's another unique situation. HE infected the young American "rebels" with "the Wall of Sound." And just LOOK at what that ignited - thank GOD the American "establishment" saw right through HIS "To Know Him is to LOVE Him" BS and locked HIM-up FOREVER.

Robert Hendrickson said...

OMG ! The Koreans ? Daye Shinn ?

Joe Col said...

St Circumstance said ...
I meant sort of meet you lol. I'm still so awkward at this internet stuff.

September 2, 2016 at 5:28 PM

Ha-ha! Pleasure, as well, St Circumstance.
I was in Long Branch last week with my Mrs & kids.That place has changed since I was last there, really cleaned up nice with many shops/restaurants.

beauders said...

Robert "To Know Him Is To Love Him" was written on Spector's fathers gravestone. His father committed suicide. It appears the family had a history of mental illness. Spector is an interesting man, he hung out with Ike Turner while he was beating Tina and locked his wife Ronnie in the castle and would not let her out. I'm sure he learned wife beating tips from Turner as he started beating Ronnie as well. The National Enquirer, in 2009, had an article in it claiming that Manson was stalking Spector in Corcoron. If only.

grimtraveller said...

Dreath said...

Grim, Just read all that.
I think you missed my point and headed off somewhere else. I'll try to be clearer next time


To be honest, it wasn't particularly clear that you were responding to MM as there was no reference to what he'd said and it was 9 posts previous.
And I certainly headed off somewhere else !
I also agree {and agreed} with the point you were making, while my attempts at humour may have crashed and burned somewhere over the Bermuda triangle.
Sometimes, I'll use a person's quote, not because I'm replying to them in particular {I wasn't with you & yours}, but because their quote best encapsulates a point that I want to share something about. I veered off topic to address what George Martin had said as I think it's inconsistent with a number of things both he and the other Beats have said over a near 50 year period. I ran with the point in much the same way that Farflung does with his points about the draft in the Zodiac post.

orwhut said...

Beauders,
Was Manson supposed to be stalking Specter to harm him or to get Spector to further his music career?

Dreath said...

Grim, all is good. It was my mistake and we all 'go off topic' now and again. Frankly, that is what is fun about this blog.

"I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught." W. Churchill

beauders said...

Manson wanted to make music with Spector.

grimtraveller said...

Fiddy 8 said...

In the year 2525 we will have forgotten about Manson - but will still listen to Brian Wilson's music

Well, we still recall Attilla the Hun, Jack the Ripper, Jubal and Beethoven. And that was without the internet.