Monday, September 19, 2016

Charlie, the Black Muslims, and ZEBRA

"Helter Skelter" is the name of the official motive for the Tate/LaBianca murders.  They were supposed to kick off a race war in which Charlie and his Family would eventually emerge on top.  Those who believe in the "Helter Skelter" theory of motive have questioned where he got this bizarre theory.  Researchers have pointed to the Book of Revelation, Scientology, the Process Church of the Final Judgement, and the Beatles' "White Album."






But another probable influence long overlooked is the ideology of the Black Muslims, aka "The Nation of Islam(NOI)." Their apocalyptic outlook was very similar to Manson's:

    ".... the, primary beliefs of the Black Muslims... were that the black man was morally and culturally superior, and was destined to rule the earth. The sect...  preached that the white race was conceived of devils whose time to reign was coming to an end. It encouraged the reclamation of fallen blacks... through the study of their true history, through striving for economic independence, and by preparation for the Battle of Armageddon which they believed would be the final struggle between good and evil, black and white."
   From Zebra: The True Account of 179 Days of Terror in San Francisco, by author Clark Howard


"the black man was.... destined, to rule the earth"
Charlie said the blacks would emerge victorious in the race war.


"..the white race ... time to reign was coming to an end."
Charlie said the karma was turning, and that blacks would rise up.


" ...preparation for the Battle of Armageddon, which they believed would be the final struggle between... black and white."
Exactly as Charlie prophesied, while the Family hid out in those underground caverns in the desert somewhere.

And almost certainly, Charlie would have had contact with the NOI in the prisons.

http://www.earcandymag.com/deathtopigsmansongang-0612.htm
The subject of the Black Muslim is brought up several times by Paul Watkins(Family member), Sandra Good(Family member) and Phil Phillips (Charlie's cell mate at McNeil Island Federal Penitentiary).

In Chapter 10 of the Paul Watkins autobiography, My Life with Charles Manson, Manson is quoted as follows: "The heavy dudes, though, are the [Black] Muslims. ...they'll be the ones who bring the shit down. Yeah, it's gonna come down hard... a full-on war."

Curiously, neither of the two standard books about the Family--Vince Bugliosi's Helter Skelter and Ed Sanders' The Family--mentions the NOI link. An oversight, or did someone not want the obvious connections to be made?





And that might be the end of it; 'it' being no more than a passing resemblance to the apocalyptic beliefs of another cult that Charlie had some slight contact with--one influence among many.  Except for one curious fact.  That (depending on how you look at it)  Helter Skelter actually DID happen, in the form of a nation-wide black-on-white homicide spree known as the ZEBRA killings, in which the suspects or perpetrators were all Black Muslims.

Specifically, Zebra refers to a series of about 20 black-on-white attacks that occurred in San Francisco from October 1973 to April 1974, leaving 15 killed and 8 wounded. It turned out the killers were a cult--the "Death Angels"--operating within the Nation of Islam mosque in San Francisco, involving about eight men. Though only four would go to prison.  Their philosophy was bizarre: to get to heaven they had to kill a certain number of whites--women and children counting for more than men--before they could earn their 'wings.' They also seemed to have been led by charismatic leaders who came out from the main NOI headquarters mosque in Chicago.



What is not well known, however, is that the spree began much earlier, when police started noticing that there were many unsolved crimes with the same MO:  one or more well-dressed and groomed black men attacking whites without any apparent motive.  Exactly how many victims there were is still disputed.

From the book "Zebra: The True Account of 179 Days of Terror in San Francisco" by Clark Howard:

"...determined to calm the fear and put a stop to the killings, Joseph Alioto held a press conference to lay out what he believed he knew about Zebra. ... he laid out a huge collection of speculative intelligence, claiming that more than eighty killings across the state going back to 1971 could be linked to Zebra, and implying that those responsible for all the crimes might be tied to the Nation of Islam."

"This was October of 1973. The California attorney general’s office had already secretly compiled a list of forty-five of those killings which had taken place in the cities of San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley, Long Beach, Signal Hill, Santa Barbara, Palo Alto, Pacifica, San Diego, and Los Angeles; and in the counties of San Mateo, Santa Clara, Los Angeles, Contra Costa, Ventura, and Alameda. All the victims were white. All the known suspects in the killings had been associated with the Black Muslim movement. The killings were even then continuing throughout the state."

http://openjurist.org/710/f2d/868/national-alliance-v-united-states-national-alliance
San Francisco Mayor Joseph L. Alioto's figure of 75 execution-style murders of White persons by Black killers in California since 1971 has been expanded to approximately 400 by adding figures for similar killings with an apparent racial motive in Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio, and Wisconsin. Police officials who added the unsolved killings in the six Midwestern states to those in California went as far back as 1969.

There were enough clues that the spree had been planned for years:

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5288&context=jclc
1965 report on 'Black Muslims and the Police,' pg2of9
The Muslims claim that they will overcome without violence or torture, but there will be complete annihilation of the white man. The tentative date set for this annihilation is 1970.


Some of the other killings thought to be Zebra killings:


EAST BAY

Oakland-Berkeley slashers

https://mindcontrolblackassassins.com/2011/01/19/from-the-gregory-files-black-manchurian-candidates-the-enigma-of-billy-mapp-the-zebra-murders-al-constran/
 Two black men had been randomly shooting and attacking whites with machetes in Oakland and Berkeley beginning September 14, 1970 and lasting a year.  14 separate attacks leave 15 victims dead or wounded.


LOS ANGELES

According to this website,

https://mindcontrolblackassassins.com/2011/01/19/from-the-gregory-files-black-manchurian-candidates-the-enigma-of-billy-mapp-the-zebra-murders-al-constran/

there were at least seven people wounded or killed in the LA area in attacks that fit the Zebra profile, commencing in June of '71 and lasting for one year.


CHICAGO

Eight blacks involved in two mass slayings of family members and others, from August to October of 1972, leaving at least nine victims dead..  They called themselves "De Mau Mau."
The killers were not themselves Muslim, but the group was founded by an ex-bodyguard to Malcolm X, Charles 37X Morris.


OKLAHOMA CITY

June 1973 to October 1974
Radical Black Muslims headquartered in Oklahoma City suspected in a series of black-on-white crimes, including at least six unsolved slayings, three shootings, two abductions and a dozen arson fires. One member arrested and convicted.


SACRAMENTO

April 1974 Sacramento shotgun murders

Four young Black Muslims kill two and wound two in separate attacks.

http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-nation-of-islams-sacramento-murders.html
..both (perps)Lang and Pratt "eventually expressed deep remorse to parole commissioners, telling them the killings around the state were coordinated by Muslim elders."
Pratt told the parole board: "It definitely was a racial crime..... This was constantly taught at the time. We had books on it, little pamphlets. This is what I see now as part of the brainwashing effect."





It is probably not a coincidence that the end of the killing spree more or less coincided with the natural death of the leader of the NOI, Elijah Muhammad, in early 1975.  His son, who succeeded him, quickly told his congregation to cool the anti-white rhetoric.

Certainly what was written about the NOI back in 1932, in the beginning, could just as easily have been written about the Manson Clan in 1969:

Detroit Free Press, 11-24-32
Detectives Wednesday expressed themselves as convinced that the cult had been conceived by a... religious fakir for personal gain and nurtured by a group of zealots whose reason had become unbalanced.   ...  Police believe these men are mad leaders who deluded the cult's members into homicidal tendencies.

Detroit Free Press, 11-28-32
There is a feeling of pity on our part for those who have so grievously been misled.  We offer our co-operation to help them by freeing them of their unfortunate leadership and making impossible a repetition of so horrible a crime*.  ... Detectives and others assigned to the case said that they would continue their investigation until the cult is stamped out.
*referring to a sacrificial murder committed by one of the group.


There were other curious links and similarities with the Black Muslims:

W.C. Fard Muhammad (founder of the NOI in the early 1930s)



http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/mystery-man/Content?oid=2175649
...Fard emphasized contempt for the white race, whom he called “cavemen” or “white devils.”

So was it just coincidence that Charlie wanted his band to hide out in the caves until Helter Skelter was over?

---------

                                                   Elijah Muhammad


Note the parallels in belief and language:

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5288&context=jclc
1965 report on 'Black Muslims and the Police,' pg3of9
--Elijah Muhammad: "We believe that intermarriage or race mixing should be prohibited."
--Malcolm X, on the black Muslim: "He's cleaning up the mess that white men have made."

--------

After the 1932 murder, Fard claimed to be a divine figure in police interviews:

https://2ndphilolog.wordpress.com/nation-of-islam/
Master Fard Muhammad, who is still considered to be “Allah” by modern-day Nation of Islam members, was described as “suffering from delusions that he is a divinity.”

Of course Charlie also liked to imply he was Christ.

------------

Fard preached an end-of-the-world scenario, like Manson:

http://www.conspiracyschool.com/sites/default/files/master_fards_deceptions_and_doctrines.pdf
Only 144,000 people would survive, and all of those would be Muslims of color, the only “true” Muslims.

(Though the NOI probably got this from the Jehovah's Witnesses, whom they have acknowledged as an influence.)

-----------

Another commonality that has intrigued me is the use of the "X" symbol by both groups.

The members of the NOI often dropped their 'slave names' and substituted an X to stand for their original, forgotten African names, for example: Malcolm X, Louis X, Clarence 13X, Joseph X Polite, Charles 37X Morris, etc.

And of course we know that Charlie and his followers burned an X into their foreheads during the trial, to show that they were "Xing"(removing) themselves out of society.

 Charlie X?
murders


Sadie X?











----------

Interview with Paul Crockett on Oct 3, 1969

https://youtu.be/IEVv9nqtZXQ
Part 1, at the 21:00 mark:
"....So, all of these things he(Manson) .... says the black man is getting ready to blow the whole thing open, that he talks to them, that they know him, that they tell him these things...."

 Crockett












Crockett implies that the links between the Black Muslims and Manson was much closer than thought.  Is it evidence that Charlie, in fact, may have had contact with them after his release from prison in the spring of '67?  Or is Charlie just embellishing?

-----------

Here's Mommy, but where's Daddy's pic?

In his book, Vince Bugliosi asks Charlie at one point if he is part black, based on info from records relating to Manson's time at the National Training School for Boys, Washington, D.C. in 1951.

Helter Skelter, Vince Bugliosi, pg555
"Father: unknown. He is alleged to have been a colored cook by the name of Scott, with whom the boy's mother had been promiscuous at the time of pregnancy."

Charlie denied it, but Bugliosi had asked the wrong question.  In the US back in the '30s, 'colored' could mean anybody who had a darker skin tone, including people from Latin America, the Middle East, Asia, etc.

IF Charlie was of mixed race, he may have played this up to win the confidence of the NOI in the prisons.  Certainly by their own rules Charlie might have qualified as a brother:

https://archive.org/stream/blackmuslimsinam030743mbp/blackmuslimsinam030743mbp_djvu.txt
The Muslims consider all non-whites to be Black Men, whatever their skin color.


There were a couple of behind-the-scenes events that occurred while Charlie was incarcerated at the McNeil Island Federal prison in Washington state from mid-1961 to mid-1966. They very well may have influenced his relationship with the Black Muslims.   The first was that the Bureau of Prisons(BOP) started adapting new tactics in their handling of hard-to-handle inmates.

McNeil Island


http://realcostofprisons.org/materials/Resisting_Living_Death_Gomez.pdf
...the 1961 gathering titled “The Power to Change Behavior: A Symposium Presented by the U.S. Bureau of Prisons” as a key moment in the politicization of institutionalized brainwashing, behavior modification, and torture within the prison regime. The result was a national directive to experiment with these techniques, originally used against American POWs in Korea, on the black Muslim prison population.  ... these techniques constituted a prison-based, Counter Intelligence Program (COINTELPRO)– like set of tactics that included surveillance, infiltration, and disruption. ...
     At the same time(early 60s), there were two formidable forces from the Left struggling against the decrepit conditions and racial violence inside prisons. Black Muslims and writ writers, also known as jailhouse lawyers, helped propel this shift.

Well Charlie liked to associate with the troublemakers, according to his records.  And according to the BOP the two most troublesome groups were the Black Muslims and the jailhouse lawyers--who liked to file a lot of lawsuits against the prisons and helped others file lawsuits.  One of Charlie's close associates at McNeil was Lanier “Red” Ramer, who was transferred to the much tougher prison at Marion, Ill, in 1972 for his 'writ writing.'   The point is that Charlie very well could have been caught up in this covert struggle between the prison administrators and the inmate agitators.   It would have been natural for the guards to try to recruit Charlie as an informant on these groups.  And if they succeeded in getting Charlie to snitch on the NOI in prison, they might have wanted him to do the same outside of prison.*  Is that why the cops and his probation officer ignored Charlie's criminal activities?  I've always suspected that the cops had an informant who was close to the family.  Well maybe it was Charlie himself.

*Though real evidence of any contacts between Charlie and any black person is mostly non-existent after he was released from TI in '67.  But it must also be remembered that Charlie didn't spend all of his time with the family--he reportedly kept up contact with his non-family associates during periodic visits by himself to Hollywood.


The other development was revealed by ex-NOI Malcolm X in this 1965 speech:

https://youtu.be/TFr4GACTGX4
Malcolm X 1965 speech
"I mentioned the conspiracy between the Muslims and the right wing in this country. I know for a fact there is a conspiracy between the Muslim and the Lincoln Rockwell nazi and also the Ku Klux Klan. There is a conspiracy. ... The Ku Klux Klan made a deal, or were trying to make a deal, with Elijah Muhammad(leader of the NOI at that time)...." [Malcolm then explains that the NOI were thereafter free to operate in the south without hindrance from the Klan, and that the Klan was free to operate without interference by the Black Muslims.]

 Malcolm X
 








Charlie was known for his chameleon-like ability to ingratiate himself with any person or group.  Did this hidden peace treaty between the white and black segregationists filter down to the prison system, and did it pave the way for Charlie to get close to elements within the NOI? 


If ever there was a crime that warranted federal involvement, it would have been this interstate crime spree by the Black Muslims.  But in this instance, the FBI was nowhere to be found.  Though there is evidence that the feds knew what they were dealing with:

https://violenceagainstwhites.wordpress.com/zebra/
NOI also murdered whites in Oklahoma City and New York City, and an old San Francisco copper who worked the original Zebra detail told me that at the time he saw a secret FBI memo that reported that a parallel campaign was underway on the East Coast.

The investigation by the San Francisco PD was hindered, it is said, because they had no black undercovers that could have infiltrated the mosque of the NOI in that city.  But this is somewhat disingenuous, as the Black Muslims had been an intensive target of FBI surveillance for many years.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/COINTELPRO/COINTELPRO-FBI.docs.html
From official FBI COINTELPRO documents: A March 4, 1968 communique
sent out by J. Edgar Hoover ... specifically identified Elijah Muhammad and the Nation of Islam as primary targets of COINTELPRO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
Amidst the urban unrest of July–August 1967, the FBI began "COINTELPRO–BLACK HATE", which focused on King and the SCLC as well as .... the Nation of Islam.

                                                        The Director, J. Edgar Hoover



https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/82420.pdf
--pg37of313
On May 3, 1974 Alioto flew off to Washington to share his information on the Death Angels with (U.S.)Attorney General Saxbe ...Saxbe was very cool to Alioto. He treated the mayor as he would any other large city mayor but with little interest in the supposed nation-wide murder plot Alioto had discovered.

SF Mayor Alioto:

What can explain the lack of interest by the Feds?  Fear of being politically incorrect in that racially charged era?  Or did they want to see the violence continue to demonize black political movements?

The  Attorney General of the United States and head of the Justice Department, William B. "Bill" Saxbe


 "When people talk about Zebra, it's usually as a serial killing. That may be technically true, but the most accurate description of what Zebra was is terrorism, plain and simple."
   --Co-author Earl Sanders in "The Zebra Murders"


https://mindcontrolblackassassins.com/2011/01/19/from-the-gregory-files-black-manchurian-candidates-the-enigma-of-billy-mapp-the-zebra-murders-al-constran/
The machete attacks as well as the Zebra Murders were operational (FBI-COINTELPRO-CIA-Project CHAOS) criminal counterintelligence actions... to destroy, disrupt and discredit Black Nationalism and polarize the races...

But if the Zebra killings, with their obvious similarities to Helter Skelter, were part of Operation Chaos, what does that mean for our understanding of Charles Manson's murders?





69 comments:

St Circumstance said...

Very interesting reading. First post I have read from Starviego. Well done!

Robert C said...

My guess ... the media back then, with some political/law enforcement pressure, feared a major white backlash if the Zebra murders were packaged as an organized on-going black racist affair.

It's a good effort by Starviego but I personally think the speculation blends some truth with myth.

starviego said...

Both cults believed in an apocalyptic race war.

Both erupted in violence at roughly the same time.

And both had their genesis in the teachings of that mysterious man from the east who reached Detroit in the '30s.

And they are connected via the prisons. That is the point I am trying to make here. More research is needed. I would especially like to know what Charlie's cellie from McNeil Island--Phil Phillips--had to say about this. He was close enough to Charlie that he allegedly visited him at both Spahn and Barker Ranches.


------------------

A plea for information: I remember coming across a reference to some obscure newspaper article that appeared right after the Tate murders, in which the author floated the theory that the murders were due to black militants. Does anybody know what I am talking about? I am going nuts trying to find that story.

orwhut said...

I'm getting a crush on Charlie's mommie.

Robert Hendrickson said...

I would THINK that even a 'possible' LINK from the word Black Muslim to the Tate / LaBianca Massacre would generate a multitude of comments. BUT then: IF we look at how quickly the public ACCEPTED the "Helter Skelter" song LINK to the famous Beatles - WITHOUT even questioning
"Where did the Beatles get the idea to do a "revolutionary" WHITE album - it ALL seems to make sense.

WE elect and pay YOU to "tell" us what to THINK - so do YOUR job or we'll get someone else to do YOUR job.

Dreath said...

Robert, I would rate the link as highly probable, not possible. But right now I have to see a judge.

brownrice said...

starviego said:
A plea for information: I remember coming across a reference to some obscure newspaper article that appeared right after the Tate murders, in which the author floated the theory that the murders were due to black militants. Does anybody know what I am talking about? I am going nuts trying to find that story.

Mae Brussell referenced an article called "Did Hate Kill Tate?" on her radio show about Charlie back in 1971. In it, the author suggests the Black Panthers were responsible. She points out that it was one of the first articles to appear after the murders and that it was written by Ed Butler- according to Mae, a long-time CIA asset/propagandist. Here's a link to a transcript of the show...

http://www.maebrussell.com/Transcriptions/16.html

...there's also a photocopy of the original article kicking around the net somewhere...

St Circumstance said...

I have quoted from that Radio show as well, but you really don't want to use her as a source, she was way off base. I showed how some of the things she said on this subject on that particular show were just not true. And she was a conspiracy theorist, not a researcher.

For example Starviego- you asked about Tex and the draft. I showed you his explanation and how he mentioned the lawyers who handled his car wreck showed up later after his arrest looking for publicity....

In that same show she mentions high powered Beverly Hills lawyers showing up in Texas after Tex's arrest". She implies that Tex must have had connections to have such representation when he had nothing to his name. But there are usually explanations for her wild ideas.

She is not a reliable source

Dreath said...

Wallace D. Fard founded the Nation of Islam and appointed Elijah Poole (Elijah Muhammad) his successor. Fard arrives in Detroit in 1930 peddling silks to the African-American community and telling them he is Allah's prophet sent by Allah to lead the chosen people in an apocalyptic war against the 'white devils'. By 1932 he had about 8,000- 10,000 followers in Detroit.

On November 21, 1932 one of his followers, James Harris, convinced another follower, John Smith, to sacrifice himself. According to Harris, Smith, when killed would ascend to a higher level of existence and return as an 'avenging angel' to help in the upcoming war. In front of Harris' family Smith was stabbed in the heart at midnight by Harris. When that didn't do the trick Harris bludgeoned Smith to death with a car axle. Arrested, Harris told the tale and implicated Fard as his inspiration. Both men spent some time in a mental institution after their arrests which shows how the criminal justice system thought of these claims in 1932.

Fard was released on condition he leave Detroit forever. He did but returned several months later. Unfortunately for Fard he was identified by truancy officers investigating why NOI children were not attending school and this time, whatever threat was used, worked. Fard disappears from history.

The FBI file suggests Fard opened a restaurant on the west coast. The Detroit Free Press, however, has more information on Fard then the FBI file making one wonder why the FBI guys never spoke to local police.

I believe it is vary probable Manson encountered Fard's ideas at McNeil Island. This was a period where progressive prison officials believed 'bibliotherapy' (reading books) would convince convicts to embrace the American way of life and abandon crime (including NOI literature, Marx, Lenin, Mao).

NOI developed a following in prisons between 1960-65 which scared the hell out of the government. But religious practice was, until 1964 at the whim of the local warden. Then the floodgates opened.

In 1964 SCOTUS decides Cooper vs. Pate which says convicts have access to courts to pursue their rights- here comes the 1st Amendment.

Imagine Manson in prison circa 1964. 'Black Muslims' are a secret clique. Then suddenly literally there are hundreds 'out of the closet'. And they are preaching Fard's religion: train yourself to be a warrior in the inevitable race war. Take what is ours, the fruits of slave labor and kill the white devils.

I believe I read somewhere that Robert said he has footage of Family members discussing Manson listening to this stuff in prison. It would have been quite a shock. These black men were preaching the apocalypse as a race war and claiming it was 'coming down fast': Helter Skelter anyone?

Then he gets out an there is the BPP and the US Organization- not just carrying guns but engaged in quasi- military training and shooting cops.

Yes, I would say it is highly probable Mr. Fard is the source of Manson's apocalypse- all he had to add was a racist belief 'blackie can't handle it' and some of his bible belt upbringing, stir in a little Scientology and Dale Carnegie and there you go.

In my opinion.

Matt said...

Fard was obviously stark raving mad. I think Elijah Muhammad was too but higher functioning. The prisons are so full of people suffering from mental illnesses that I would imagine it becomes difficult to distinguish.

This Chelsea bomber seems to be off the charts nuts too, but claims ISIS inspiration. When a delusional person thinks they have a higher calling it often proves deadly.


starviego said...

"Mae Brussell referenced an article called "Did Hate Kill Tate?" "

Yes, that's the one! THANK YOU Brownrice!

And thank you Deb for the help in providing sources for this thread.

-----------------

http://xdell.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html
Ed Butler, propagated an op-ed piece in August 1969 titled “[u]Did Hate Kill Tate[/u],” in which he blamed the deaths on the Black Panthers for the crimes. ...Butler had previously recorded Lee Oswald’s declaration for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, an organization in which he was the only member. ...
Mae(Brussell) ... believed that in the months before the public had a face to go with the murders, speculation such as Butler’s tried to condition the public to accept the arrest and conviction of innocent blacks--[b]just in case the authorities continued to protect Manson[/b]. Indeed, this might have been a reality had Susan Atkins not told all to Veronica Howard and Virginia Graham.

Other researchers believe, as do I, that Butler was some kind of intel agent.
So it is curious that long before the LAPD or the Prosecutor could figure it out, the FBI/CIA were pushing the Helter Skelter theory.

Butler allegedly even used the term "Blue Meanies" in the article, so he probably had foreknowledge of that tie-in too.

starviego said...

Dreath,
"I believe I read somewhere that Robert said he has footage of Family members discussing Manson listening to this stuff in prison. It would have been quite a shock. These black men were preaching the apocalypse as a race war and claiming it was 'coming down fast': Helter Skelter anyone? "

Most people probably think that "Helter Skelter" was merely a product of Charlie's paranoid, fevered mind. But I say that Charlie actually HAD IT ON GOOD AUTHORITY that it was going to come down. (and I don't mean no Beatles album)

Robert Hendrickson said...

Charlie's genius was that HE could actually SEE that which was right before HIM.

TODAY, we must wait for THE "TEACHER" to say: "It's OK to SEE that tree NOW."

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

A plea for information: I remember coming across a reference to some obscure newspaper article that appeared right after the Tate murders, in which the author floated the theory that the murders were due to black militants. Does anybody know what I am talking about? I am going nuts trying to find that story

In the 2nd Tate Police investigation report, we find this interesting little jewel, buried among the cubic zirconia;

On 9-8-69, an appointment was made by Kate Saxton, aka Baird, Pegrum, and Marilyn Kirk to
talk with Sergeant Calkins at Parker Center at 1630 hours. Both women arrived at approximately 1900 and were interviewed in room 318. At the beginning of the interview it was noted that Kate Baird had been drinking to the point where she was slurring her words to a noticeable extent.
Kate Baird, with the help of Marilyn Kirk, related the following information: Kate Baird is from England and had been an actress in that country for a number of years. She was married to
a male Negro by the name of Harry Fredericks Patterson Baird, an American, born May 12, 1931, probably in British Guiana. Harry Baird was educated in England and at the present time has no known means of support. According to Kate Saxton, Harry Baird is a close friend of Mohammed Ali and ex-pro football player, Jim Brown. All three of the individuals are active
in a black power movement which encompasses both England and the USA. Kate Saxton states she has received numerous severe beatings from her ex-husband prior to their separation and divorce. She came to the United States and is presently living at 1875 Ocean Way, Laguana Beach, with Marilyn Kirk. She is convinced that the homicides were a means of the black power movement in this country to show their force and strength.
She states she is afraid for her own safety if it becomes known that she has contacted the
police. She has been contacted by a male Caucasian by the name of Otelio DiBolchona,
Reverse Runaway Productions, Inc., 9000 Sunset Boulevard, Hollywood, (no record), and
another male Caucasian by the name of Eldon Shelby Setterholm, DOB 8-20-23, CII 606232,
LA 339159, FBI 309 2709, 777 1/2 South Coast Highway, Laguna Beach. Both these individuals have made indirect threats on Kate Saxton's life. She states that Setterholm is a
drug salesman for the "jet set" in the Hollywood area.
Saxton states that her ex-husband knew about the murders "almost as soon as they happened." He is in England and has phoned her on several occasions requesting all news clippings regarding the multiple murders. Investigation will continue regarding the statements
made by Kate Saxton.


The point has been made every so often how dumb the Family's attempts to pin the guilt tail on the Black donkey were. But in a psychedelic scenario, even specific plans for something were realized in a psychedelic, random way. The spread of LSD use was a perfect example. Some of the early adherents back in the 50s and early 60s were very pointed in whom they felt would best bring it's usage to the masses {artists, creative people like writers, poets, actors and musicians. Though they had no control over the minutiae, by the end of the 60s what they foresaw more or less happened and how ! I suspect 'twas the same with Charlie. Write a few "what could be Black folk phrases" in blood, plant a wallet in a place you've seen Black people go, even better if it's in a woman's rest room for additional spice and then sit back and watch the fun unfold.
Ironically, that's what happened to him in the end. Rarely was the phrase "hoist by his own petard" more appropriate.

Matt said...

Coach Hendrickson, I agree but I don't think it's genius - at least in the literal sense. When I was in college I noticed a difference between the students who memorized the material coming from the professors and accepted it as fact, and the others like myself who memorized the material but accepted some of the material as fact, but discarded that which they didn't necessarily buy into. I think that's what Manson always did, for better or for worse he made his own judgements.


starviego said...

"Harry Baird is a close friend of Mohammed Ali and ex-pro football player, Jim Brown"

WOW! Yet another link. Ali, of course, was part of the NOI from about 1961 to 1975. As a celebrity member, he would have been close to those in power, and would definitely have been in a position to know. This implies that, in the time before Charlie was arrested, the NOI themselves believed Tate/LaBianca was one of 'theirs.'

------------


www.noi.org/noi-history/
Upon the Master’s departure in 1934(referring to the disappearance of Fard), the Honorable Elijah Muhammad labored tirelessly to bring life to his mentally and spiritually dead people until his return to the Master in 1975. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad identified the Master as being the answer to the one that the world had been expecting for the past 2,000 years under the names Messiah, the second coming of Jesus, the Christ, Jehovah, God, and the Son of Man.

If the biblical phrase "Son of Man" was of some importance in the Black Muslim beliefs, that would have been another link between the NOI and Charlie. "Son of Man" - "Man's Son" - "Manson," dig?

The boy wonder said...

Hoist by his own petard indeed, most hexllent phrase.

prefeteria said...

I happened to catch some of Jeffrey Toobin on NPR today discussing his Patty Hearst book. There were passing mentions of Zebra, Zodiac, Manson. Certainly there are parallels among these topics as we have seen.....

Dreath said...

Starviego said: Ali, of course, was part of the NOI from about 1961 to 1975. As a celebrity member, he would have been close to those in power, and would definitely have been in a position to know. This implies that, in the time before Charlie was arrested, the NOI themselves believed Tate/LaBianca was one of 'theirs.'

Ok, you lost me. How does this imply the NOI thought TLB was one of theirs?

This is Harry Baird: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0047872/ He's a pretty low profile black actor from the late 50's and 60's.

His wife was drunk, in fact so drunk her friend Ms.Kirk had to tell her story. She also implicates a fellow named Eldon Setterholm who appears in a comment here: http://www.mansonblog.com/2012/06/devil-in-details-they-play-no-games.html

as being connected to the Brotherhood of Eternal Love (BEL) which is another favorite around here- 'Orange Sunshine' (LSD)...etc.

So now we have the NOI in cahoots with the BEL? Or maybe Ms. Saxton, Baird, Pegrum just had a little substance abuse problem of the 'old school' kind, herself.

I am sorry, I don't see the connection. Just because a guy knows a muslim does not mean he is a muslim (although we may be headed that way).

Panamint Patty said...

A BEL connection? Patty's ears just perked up

starviego said...

2nd Tate Police investigation report
According to Kate Saxton, Harry Baird is a close friend of Mohammed Ali... She is convinced that the homicides were a means of the black power movement in this country to show their force and strength. ..... Saxton states that her ex-husband knew about the murders "almost as soon as they happened."

The interviewer doesn't state it, but it is implied that she got this theory from her husband. IF Baird got this theory from Ali, then we asked how did The Champ know this? The obvious implication is that others high up in the NOI told him this. Which means that the people that counted in the NOI thought(or knew) Tate/LaBianca were the doings of "the black power movement." I doubt they were thinking of the Panthers.

starviego said...


Says the son of Setterholm:

http://weendotnetforum16662.yuku.com/reply/1362019/Charles-Manson#reply-1362019
There was some stupid connection with my dad in this article. He never met Charlie or any of the people involved in the Tate murders. He did know some of the same people in hollywood at the time tho.

Dreath said...

Sorry Patty, no BEL here.

Starviego,

Baird was also a close friend of Micheal Caine (white guy)- Italian Job (June, 1969)- good movie, Zulu (for historical accuracy)- great movie, IMO.

And I haven't found anything that actually corroborates that he was close to or knew either Ali or Jim Brown although by 1964 Brown was an actor- 100 Rifles, 1969- Raquel Welch in a poncho and little else.

Brown's only religious affiliation is as a Baptist as a child (that I can find). Baird appears to be more Brit then US- like Caine....Ah-ha, there it is again, a British connection.

Remember in these reports John Philips was also sure it was 'Pic' Dawson and 'Pig' actually was 'Pic'. In fact, to me it appears that everyone in Hollywood or that was Laurel Canyon, music, connected threw someone under the bus for the murders.

And given the UCLA murders (January 1969), the unexplained murder of 'Franko' Diggs (either December 1968 or January 1969- depending on who you believe) and the 'gas station shootout' in August 1968- all in LA- I'd bet they were, in fact talking about the Panthers. Manson was.....Panther body dumped near UCLA (probably a confusion-combo of the UCLA shooting and Diggs)

By some reports Diggs was shot with a 9mm, stabbed 20+ times and dumped in an alley (or murdered there)- lots of conflicting reports. He was also the 'underground' connection for the LA Panthers, which meant selling dope and buying guns.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Is it NOT totally amazing that within the entire US Homeland Security Organization it is most likely that NOT one member has ever even heard of "Black Muslims" ?

Of course, what can you expect when the next LEADER of the Most Powerful Nation on Earth doesn't even have a clue as to the reality related to "emailing."

I don't MEAN to be politically UGLY here, BUT hey, the famous Manson Prosecutor didn't even send out a squad car to investigate the Black Muslim connection either.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Ya know DREATH - you are getting very close to the target and it makes ME THINK of just how WE all, back in the day, were bombarded with "the Communists are going to take over the world IF we don't stop them." Imagine, we were taught, ONE could be living right next door to us and THEY come out at night (like zombies) and lurk behind every corner.

AND then one day the US President (LBJ) announces "WE finally got some of those evil Commie terrorists out in the open and cornered in Vietnam." BINGO !

The REAL question NOW is: When are the BLACKS (who the cops have declared WAR on) going to merge with the Muslims and begin the "Final Conflict" as Manson was TAUGHT to SEE it?

Robert Hendrickson said...

I hate to get sticky / picky HERE, but STARVIEGO says: "Charlie said the Blacks would emerge victorious in the race war." EXCEPT that is Bugliosi talking - Paul Watkins (the witness) actually said: it was the Black MUSLIMS who would emerge victorious.

AND that is the cause of the relevant ISSUE: Blacks vs Black Muslims.

Of course, IF we were getting ANY of this info from some school teachers, politicians or officers of the Court - who the fuck cares / what the fuck difference does it make. Nothing has changed in 50 short years: If it's BLACK shoot it in the BACK.

Dreath said...

Ah...technically I'm an officer of the court ;-)

Robert Hendrickson said...

Ah DREATH: And technically I'm just a an old man who has lost his marbles.
But YOU have made the WISE choise to climb out of the BAT cave and join the SANITY of the
MANSON Blog.

I choose to relish in the FREEDOM that comes with KNOWING the TRUTH - that MARBELS are merely "establishment implants" in the far recesses of the human BRAIN.

BTW: the Jon Bonet Ramsey 2 hour doc really shined some light on how EXPERTS view EVIDENCE.

Definitely NOT something REAL jurors should have to endure. Of course, IF you (as a defendant) can't AFFORD to pay a professional EVIDENCE expert, YOU can spend the rest of YOUR life in PRISON WAITING for an "officer of the Court" to have mercy on YOU.

Ah... Maybe when a cop shoots YOU in the back - HE's actually GIVING you a taste of "mercy."

ALSO: The DEBATES begin tonight. So watch how relevant the subject of "Blacks vs Black Muslims" relates to "Muslims vs Muslim Terrorists." Usually, ONLY one word separates EVERYTHING including 2 presidential candidates.

starviego said...

From Watkins' court testimony:

"The murders were going to start in rich places like Bel Air and Beverly Hills in the summer of 1969..."
(Shadow Over Santa Susanna, pg 78)

This was allegedly said by Charlie in the spring of that year. Does that mean Charlie already had made exact plans months before Tate/LaBianca? Or was he just repeating what he had been TOLD BY OTHERS?

Robert Hendrickson said...

STAREIGO: It means YOU are THINKING - enough to disqualify YOU from ever being a "juror."


starviego said...


"While the family was still(March '69, at the latest) at the house in Canoga Park(the Gresham St house), Manson began to encourage members of various motorcycle clubs to hang out with the family."
(The Family, pg150)

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/charles-manson-the-incredible-story-of-the-most-dangerous-man-alive-19700625
Manson used to keep DeCarlo around because DeCarlo was the leader of his gang, and in case Manson ever needed any physical protection, there weren't enough men around there to give him protection.

The hardened ex-con needing protection? From what?

The cops? The bikers wouldn't have been much help, and most likely would have only attracted more police attention.

The Black Panthers? They didn't know Charlie, and Charlie didn't know them. This was months before the shooting of Crowe.

The Ranch Hands? The local redneck shitkickers? Unlikely.

I believe Charlie was, for some reason, afraid of the Black Muslims. Was this just his paranoia run rampant, or did he have more concrete reasons?

"Something freaked Manson out in early 1969 enough for him to prepare for the end of Western Civilization."
(The Family, pg147)


Here's my alternative theory as to how Helter Skelter cam about:

The NOI came to Charlie early in '69. While in prison, they had accepted him as one of their own, and had taught him their deepest secrets. But then word gets back that Charlie is now disparaging the master race, and blabbing about the upcoming race war, and their role in it. So they go to Charlie and tell him he must pay the penalty--death*--for betraying them. Heavy threat trip was.

But they give him an out: Charlie will have to kick off the war for his brothers if he wants to save his ass. They don't want just any white devils, they want some of those rich piggies who live up in the hills. They explain that a carful of black men driving through those areas at night would be a cop magnet and hence too risky. But Charlie could pull it off, with the help of some of his white friends. So Charlie goes back and mulls his options.

He's seriously freaked, so he recruits the bikers as security. He may even have gone to the cops, but they aren't interested, having been told from on high not to involve the NOI in anything. Maybe they even remind Charlie that he could be sent back to the Can at any time for all his lawbreaking, so even picking up stakes and disappearing into the night won't help, because even if the Black Muslims couldn't find him, the police sure could, sooner or later. And what do you find in the Can? More Black Muslims. So for Charlie there is no escape. Pressure was. So Charlie starts thinking how he can do the job without doing the job.

He remembers he has loyal followers who would do anything for him. Anything? Anything, with the right psychological conditioning and training. Let the creepy crawls begin, let the weapons training begin, let the knife dances begin. He knows he has until the summer to make it happen.

-----------

*Detroit Free Press, 11-23-32
... statements from several confirmed members of the cult revealed .. that the penalty for divulging any of the cult's secrets to outsiders, is death.

St Circumstance said...

Mae Brussell might be someone you are interested in after all lol

Robert Hendrickson said...

The beauty of the new Jon Benet Ramsey Murder Case Doc is that they "USED" professional EXPERT witnesses to explain the EVIDENCE found in interviews, 3 page RANSOM note, etc.

AND all the experts agreed that: what is NOT said (revealed) but omitted can be a VERY significant clue ( to the point that HER brother is the most likely suspect. AND as I have said repeatedly, WHY is 'Little' Paul Watkins the only WITNESS who mentions that the Black Muslims will WIN the WAR.

SO how about this: The MUSLIMS will "win" the WAR. NOW, to me, that sounds more like IF you are BLACK and you don't want a bullet in your back - become a Muslim - like M. "Ali"

BUT YOU have been TAUGHT to just "VOTE" and all your cares will just disappear.

WELL, if you want to believe the crap the "establishment" has programed in to your computer (brain) - how is that working for you?

Dreath said...

RH said: SO how about this: The MUSLIMS will "win" the WAR. NOW, to me, that sounds more like IF you are BLACK and you don't want a bullet in your back - become a Muslim - like M. "Ali"

I hope we all understand that the rather insane notions of W. D. Fard that form the origins of the NOI and thus the "Black Muslims" being discussed is an utter bastardization of the religion known as Islam (as in Sunni, Shia, etc.).

The term "Black Muslim" as originally presented (as far back as the 1930's) and adopted by the NOI as a self-descriptive term finds its origins around Fard and his apocalyptic vision of what was actually a people of color versus white race war in his mind (he was likely Egyptian and 'Arabian').

I would suspect, Robert, that under Fard's vision Blacks who converted to Islam and 'became Muslims' (if you mean Sunni, Shia, etc.) would also get a bullet in the back. In Fard's fantasy these people would be known as 'unholy' to differentiate them from 'white devils' and would be lumped in with African-American Christians.

This distinction arises from Fard's view of the Bible as the white man's false religion. Those who believed in it (and pure Islam as well) had succumbed to the will of the devil- 'Uncle Tom'.

Watkins testimony, Postons testimony: they die too. Then the 'Black Muslim's' win the war.

St Circumstance said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grimtraveller said...

Starviego said...

Curiously, neither of the two standard books about the Family [Vince Bugliosi's Helter Skelter and Ed Sanders' The Family] mentions the NOI link. An oversight, or did someone not want the obvious connections to be made?

What obvious connection ?
I find much of this "connection" talk to be overlooking the obvious, namely, that it doesn't matter where Charles Manson got the elements that made up Helter Skelter. It really does not. It's interesting in tracing the genesis of it but that's really about it. Neither book goes deep into the NOI because the NOI are not the reason all those people died.
I find so often it gets brought up when someone is trying to hint at something without coming right out and saying it, for whatever reason.
When I first read "Helter Skelter" when I was 15, the very first thing that stood out to me, before I even got to the start of the story was a little publisher's note that said;
Mention of Manson's interpretation of the Beatles' lyrics is critical to the understanding of the workings of Manson's weird mind and to an appreciation of the prosecution case on motivation. It must be emphasized that the hidden meanings found by Manson in these songs were hidden to everyone except Manson. No rational, normal person could possibly find in the words of the lyrics any justification for any of the features of Manson's creed or any of his actions. That they were an influence on Manson is indisputable, but so too is the fact that this was no responsibility of the Beatles
I disagree profoundly with the point about messages within the songs not being seen in certain ways by normal, rational people, but broadly agree that one can't put the responsibility on the Beatles ~ although they do not exactly come out smelling of roses on this either.
But generally speaking, the same is true of the NOI. The fact that part of their message included a violent overthrow of "Whites" does not pitch any responsibility in their direction for the murder of Steven Parent and Abigail Folger. Talking about "obvious connections" is a roundabout way of saying "it's their fault !"

Dreath said...

Grim said: The fact that part of their [NOI's] message included a violent overthrow of "Whites" does not pitch any responsibility in their direction for the murder of Steven Parent and Abigail Folger. Talking about "obvious connections" is a roundabout way of saying "it's their fault !"

You are absolutely correct that the origins of HS as the Beatles, Fard's odd pseudo-Islam-apocolypse, NOI or the Bible does not pass responsibility from those who committed murder to these others. No doubt.

And for that reason I don't agree with you that discussing the origins of something "is a roundabout way of saying it is their fault". My research was to try to explain to myself at least where Manson's crazy came from. Could he have actually made all that up?

Frankly, I can't even figure out how you make that jump.

I don't agree with Starviego's theory except to the extent that I do believe Manson heard the Fard-apocolypse in prison and that is the source of his 'war'.

And he wasn't the only one who heard it....

"He [Bunchy Carter] was preaching, like the former Muslim minister that he was, telling us the mythical story of the mad scientist Yacuub, who had “erroneously” saved white people." Elaine Brown. A Taste of Power

That would be Fard's crap, hook, line and sinker that this Black Panther also heard in prison (Soledad) and bought into.

I might also add that personally I feel that dismissing someone else's theories out of hand is not good form. Disagree, sure. Argue, you bet, disprove even better.

"I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught." W. Churchill

grimtraveller said...

Starviego said...

The subject of the Black Muslim is brought up several times by Paul Watkins(Family member), Sandra Good(Family member) and Phil Phillips

As were the Panthers by Clem for example, who in 1970 told Rolling Stone:
"I was in jail with a bunch of Panthers," he says, "and they'd tell me it was coming down. They had this chant, 'Look out, whitey, we're coming to get you.'
"They have this plan, and they will take over because the white man's karma is almost used up. If you read Revelations, Chapter 9, it's there. They are going to open up the bottomless pit, and the only people that will escape are the people that go to the desert. There won't be very many who make it – 144,000, that's all."
So far it's the same story that all the kids in the family tell at one time or another
.
In the same article from 1970, there's an interview with Charlie {a number of subsequent books, including "Goodbye Helter skelter" and the ones by Jeff Guinn and, I suspect, Simon Wells, have drawn quite a bit from that interview over the years} in which he says, in response to the question "Why do you think that this revolution predicted in 'Revolution 9' will be violent ? Why will it be racial ?" ¬> "have you heard of the Muslims ? Have you heard of the Black Panthers ? Englishmen, do you remember cutting off the heads of praying Muslims with the cross sewn onto your battledress? Can you imagine it ?"
Bugliosi notes in HS "The 'true Black race'~ whom Manson identified at various times as the Black Muslims and the Black Panthers...."
There is a lot of interchangeability with terminology in the Family. Black Muslims may be the guys Charlie met in jail, but his talks with the Family were not peppered with "Black Muslims this, Black Muslims that". Blackie was Blackie.....and it was the Panthers Charlie was wary of, even before shooting Lotsapoppa.

Curiously, neither of the two standard books about the Family [Vince Bugliosi's Helter Skelter and Ed Sanders' The Family] mentions the NOI link

It is actually not true to say that HS never mentions the link with the Black Muslims because in the February 1970 section where Bugliosi is describing the part of HS when the paranoid Whites go into the ghettoes and are shooting Black people, it's the Black Muslims that come out to appeal to the Whites and cause the liberals and conservatives to engage in a civil war; it's the Black Muslims that come out and wipe out the remnant of Whites that survive their civil war.
Bugliosi doesn't mention what happened to Charlie in reform school or jail. He doesn't emphasize his marriages or draw the link between his Mum having him put away and children in the Family not being raised by their own parents. He doesn't even mention Sandy's statement that the Father is irrelevant {it was William Zamora, one of the jurors that brought that out}.
As I've pointed out before, HS was a multifaceted concept with many disparate threads leading to the moment of murder ~ but it was Charlie that brought all those threads together in the unique way they came together.
Ironically, through 1970, he doesn't even deny it.

grimtraveller said...

Dreath said...

I don't agree with you that discussing the origins of something "is a roundabout way of saying it is their fault"

It's not a general point, it's a very specific one on this matter in particular.
I think this is an interesting discussion. I've also noticed that over the last year or so, there's been a build up passing almost under the radar of the Black Muslim/Muslim question which is never presented verbatim as a mere "oh, they mentioned it to Charlie in passing and he then internalized it and ran with it." There's often this hint that Bugliosi knew something but deliberately ignored it or the emphasis on Paul Watkins mentioning the Black Muslims, yet never an explanation of how these dudes that are heavy enough to get the White race to so weaken itself that the Black Muslims wipe them out but end up content to be slaves again. A lot of hints, rarely anything concrete.

My research was to try to explain to myself at least where Manson's crazy came from

Likewise.

Could he have actually made all that up ?

Well, he certainly adds his own originality to the NOI mix. Plans to bring down the White establishment and the open talk of it were commonplace in the USA during the early to mid part of the decade. By both Black and White factions. But if you look at HS, each aspect of it was based on something and refashioned as something, the Whites killing Blacks, the White civil war, the Blacks handing over the reigns of power eventually and becoming slaves again.......

Frankly, I can't even figure out how you make that jump

Starviego's alternative theory.

starviego said...


IF the NOI ordered Charlie to kick off Armageddon or else, it brings up the possibility that Cielo Drive might not have been picked merely because it was a location familiar to Charlie. The real reason, imo, may have been to target Abigail Folger. In an era in which most white Angelenos couldn't find Compton or Watts on a map to save their life, she probably knew many down there. But of course you'll tell me it's just another coincidence.

www.mansondirect.com/police-report-tate-1st.html
In the past year, Abigail had been an active participant in Negro social work. She sponsored and attended rallies in the Watts area ...This contention is borne out by several civil rights placards found at the Cielo address.


Since the NOI mosque was located in the black ghetto of LA, it's possible her activities came to the attention of the Black Muslims. It must have been galling to them to have this rich white woman come to their neighborhood to show them how to live. Folger did volunteer work in the ghetto for about six months at most, stopping in late March, 1969, reportedly due to burnout or something like that. Maybe she was threatened to leave the neighborhood. Or did those planning Armageddon put her name on a hit list?

(Of course this theory implies that the planners knew where Folger was living at the time of the LoCielo murders. How would they know? Two words: Winifed Chapman, the maid. You'll remember she politely declined an invitation to spend the night on that bloody night. I'll bet she lived in the ghetto. Did anybody ever check her associates in da 'hood? Of course not.)

OOO-eee-OOOO!

grimtraveller said...

Dreath said...

I might also add that personally I feel that dismissing someone else's theories out of hand is not good form. Disagree, sure. Argue, you bet, disprove even better

I guess one person's dismissal is another person's disagreement.
Again, I was responding to a specific point that asked why two books about a series of murders didn't emphasize a particular link. I happen to think it is because they simply were not important in the story both of those books were attempting to tell.

I do believe Manson heard the Fard-apocolypse in prison and that is the source of his 'war'

I seem to recall recently agreeing with you on this somewhere. All I would add to it is that apocalyptic seeds had been sown in Manson's psyche from when he used to be in Church meetings with his Gran when he was a little lad. I'd say some of the NOI rhetoric somewhere within acted as good fertilizer !

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Helter Skelter actually DID happen, in the form of a nation-wide black-on-white homicide spree known as the ZEBRA killings, in which the suspects or perpetrators were all Black Muslims

Taking your evidence into account, any Black on White killings could be looked upon as Helter Skelter. But Helter skelter was far more than just a 'race war.' It involved a race war but also had as it's components a conservative / liberal civil war, White flight and the growing of the future rulers {and all that entailed}, Black rule, Black failure, Black re~enslavement.....
The funny thing is that when pared down to essentials, what the NOI pushed and what Charlie prophesied were actually vastly different.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

There were other curious links and similarities with the Black Muslims...Fard emphasized contempt for the white race, whom he called “cavemen” or “white devils.”

So was it just coincidence that Charlie wanted his band to hide out in the caves until Helter Skelter was over ?


Yes.

Malcolm X, on the black Muslim: "He's cleaning up the mess that white men have made."

Bear in mind that that is a withering put down of White men. The import is that White men have screwed up not made a mess and left it for their servant to clear up. X is saying that the Black Muslim is doing things properly, "not like those White men that have messed up."

Master Fard Muhammad, who is still considered to be “Allah” by modern-day Nation of Islam members, was described as “suffering from delusions that he is a divinity.”

I've had quite a few occasions over the years where I've had to point out to friends that actually, as Black people, we aren't Gods...

Of course Charlie also liked to imply he was Christ

Well, acid will do that for you, as Vince Taylor, John Lennon and many others could attest.

starviego said...

"Malcolm X, on the black Muslim: "He's cleaning up the mess that white men have made." "

I was referring to the similarity in language to what Charlie was telling his followers. That after the race war was over blackie would have to come out and clean up the white man's mess. (Or words to that effect--I don't know the exact quote.)

Robert Hendrickson said...

I believe I could convince (prove) to an "intelligent" jury that Helter Skelter had MORE to do with the teachings of the NOI in prison than a song title by the Beatles. Of course, "Knights in WHITE Satin" would be harder.

BUT then the issue arises: Why would Charles Manson identify / connect with the TEACHINGS of a Gang of Black Muslim prisoners? MATT, YOU keep quiet.


starviego said...

"Why would Charles Manson identify / connect with the TEACHINGS of a Gang of Black Muslim prisoners?"

If Charlie was in a cell block with many NOI he may have felt getting friendly with them was a necessary survival tactic.

Also the emphasis on adopting the X symbol because they did not know their original family name must have resonated strongly with Charlie as he did not know his own last name as a child; even adopting the name of a man not related to him by blood.

I also suspect, without evidence, that Charlie may have been encouraged to keep up his ties to the Black Muslims by the Prison admin, to develop Charlie as a snitch.

Dreath said...

Grim, your post to me above: you see we do agree with a little clarification.

And no doubt the Fard rhetoric is significantly different then Manson. What is it people say, he borrowed pieces from other ideas.

RH: I have no idea but maybe Matt could tell us.

And a question to anyone: where can I find the comment about the dead Black Panther found on or near UCLA? Thanks.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Elijah Muhammad: "We believe that intermarriage or race mixing should be prohibited."

On the Black side, Elijah Muhammad was by no means the only person that believed that. On the White side, Charles Manson was by no means the only person that believed that. I suspect that during the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s at least {if not still now}, possibly the majority of people on this planet believed it, especially when put the test. It's pretty much a cultural norm among great swathes of every race that I'm aware of.
My point ? Charlie, coming from the south would have been inculcated with that thought long, long before he was in jail and met adherents of the NOI. Even in the "sophisticated" big cities of the northern, eastern and western parts of the USA, racial mixing was frowned upon.

IF Charlie was of mixed race, he may have played this up to win the confidence of the NOI in the prisons. Certainly by their own rules Charlie might have qualified as a brother

If....may.....might.....

The point is that Charlie very well could have been caught up in this covert struggle between the prison administrators and the inmate agitators. It would have been natural for the guards to try to recruit Charlie as an informant on these groups. And if they succeeded in getting Charlie to snitch on the NOI in prison, they might have wanted him to do the same outside of prison

very well could have......And if.....might have....

Is that why the cops and his probation officer ignored Charlie's criminal activities? I've always suspected that the cops had an informant who was close to the family. Well maybe it was Charlie himself

Charlie was arrested a number of times but there was never anything substantial with which to hold him. It's actually not unusual with criminals, to find that they get picked up for a number of things that never stick, for one reason and another. Then comes that day when.....K E R B L A M M O !! They go "down baby." The sands of time run out.
As for his probation officer, the reality is that he wrote on October 1st '69 or thereabouts, a letter requesting that Charlie's parole/probation {forgive me, I can never remember which. Suffice it to say, his freedom} be revoked. He wrote this because he was not happy with the fact that Manson hung with known felons and wasn't reporting in his activities and whereabouts and couldn't be found, among other things. The significance of this is that the letter was sent off 11 or so days before Charlie was a free citizen for the last time. Charlie's sands of time had run out.

Dreath said...

Thank you Grim

starviego said...

I don't remember the media or anybody else making a big deal out of the fact that Charlie was violating his parole for years and how the murders could have been prevented if only LE had been doing their job. Now you can call it luck, but Charlie was just a little too lucky in this regard, imo.

July 28, 1967 Charlie arrest in Legget, near Ukiah, Mendocino County for interfering with an officer sentenced to three years probation
[so apparently Charlie was on probation AND parole]

April, 1968 Oxnard arrests, Ventura County Charlie arrested with others for possessing phoney IDs

May 2, 1968 Summit Trail house raided Manson arrested with others on pot possession Ruled 'insufficient evidence to prosecute'

March 24, 1969 "Girl from Reseda," 16, raped by Manson at Spahns.
(The Family, pg174) Charlie reportedly arrested

March 30, 1969 Manson arrested for beating up DeCarlo's wife?
(The Family, pg`150)

April '69 Arrests follow raid on 'Helter Skelter Club' at Spahns

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n21/christian-lorentzen/the-way-out-of-a-room-is-not-through-the-door
On 19 April police looking for stolen cars raided the Spahn ranch, arrested several of the Family – though not the absent Manson – and impounded some dune buggies. The arrests didn’t stick


Exactly how many times did Manson meet up with his probation/parole officers, or miss his appointments? Curiously the record seems to be totally absent. Bugliosi barely touched on the issue. I heard of Charlie writing his parole officer requesting permission to join the Beach Boys on tour, but that's about it.


Ex-LASO Deputy Preston Guillory laid it out for all to see, but few understood the import of what he said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-krassner/the-mystery-behind-the-ma_b_255394.html
"It's like Manson had God on his side when all these things are going down, or else somebody was watching every move he made, somebody was controlling from behind the scenes. Somebody saw that no parole hold was placed. ... ..somebody very high up was controlling everything that was going on and was seeing to it that we didn't bust Manson."

Robert Hendrickson said...

GRIM: My relationship with the Family was NOT unlike Charlie's with the NOI.

I suspect that is WHY I understand exactly where Charlie and the NOI are coming from.

SO for ME, I can't understand WHY almost nobody else HEARS the GUN fire and/or SEES the blazing FIRES in the not so distant future.

I can also hear Charlie laughing as HE says: "So what are you gonna do?
Throw ME back in prison? Ha Ha Ha! The FREEDOM of truly NOT giving a shit is got to be the greatest HIGH ever experienced.

Robert Hendrickson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert Hendrickson said...

STARIEGO:
Just made ME THINK. Ronnie Howard was paying OFF her probation officer.
Back in the day it was a common practice. Maybe Manson NEEDED "the money" to PAY off HIS ?

TODAY the Judicial system even has its own UNDERGROUND $$$$ system where "Mr.GREEN" basicly runs the show.

BTW: YOUR "vote" means NOTHING - the BANKS run the REAL show for most of us.


starviego said...


Before his release from TI in '67:

"...in studying Manson's record... I was more than surprised. I was amazed at the number of federal offenses. ... here was Manson, described as "criminally sophisticated," violating the Dyer Act, the Mann Act, stealing from the mails, forging a government check, and so on."
(Bugliosi, pg199)

After TI the pattern is reversed. Manson does not seem to have involved in ANY federal crimes, or was arrested or charged with any federal crimes. It is known that early in the Family's history, they traveled up the coast as far as Seattle and as far east as El Paso, but there is no known contact with ANY law enforcement except in California. The family was already becoming known to the Sheriff in Inyo County in their travels to and from Barker. But there is nothing about any intel from the Nevada side, either from the Clark County Sheriff's Dept or the Las Vegas PD, though the Mansonoids often used the road that ran down to Las Vegas. Apparently no one even attempted to use a stolen credit card on the eastern side of the mountains.

Then there is the arson of the Michigan skip loader. Presumably that would have been destruction of Federal Property (the vehicle apparently belonged to the National Park Service)on Federal Land. But no federal charges!

Somehow, I get the feeling someone was deliberately NOT busting the Family for interstate crimes, which might have demanded the attention of the feds, specifically the FBI.

Curiously, the LA County Sheriff at the time of Tate/LaBianca, Peter Pitchess, began his LE career as an FBI Special Agent, doing 12 years from 1940 to 1952. He then leaves the most prestigious job in police work and does a year in corporate security (sheep dipping?), then joins the LASO as second-in-command, and six years later he is the top dog. No rising through the ranks for Pitchess. One wonders if the career move was 'encouraged' by the Director himself, to place one of his own men in this big local police organization.

I remember a reference that just before his release from TI, Manson was visited by two FBI agents. Was this just SOP, or was this special attention given to a special ex-con?

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

both had their genesis in the teachings of that mysterious man from the east who reached Detroit in the '30s

That's not true at all. To say that Charlie's eventual group had it's genesis in Fard and what he taught is stretching even a good story beyond the limits of fiction.

Robert Hendrickson said...

look at how quickly the public ACCEPTED the "Helter Skelter" song LINK to the famous Beatles

What are you saying here ? That there was no link ? That at the scene of a particularly gruesome murder, words written in blood were found and that one of the phrases just happened to be the title of a song on the Beatles latest album......?
One of the LaBianca detectives made the link almost straight away. He noticed that one their songs on the White album had the refrain of "waiting for this moment to arise," that there was a song with Pigs in the title and that one of the songs was called Helter Skelter. You point out how quickly the public accepted the link {if they did; I don't actually know if they did} ~ well, look how quickly the police rejected the link, so much so that no one can even recall whose idea it was that there was a link !

WITHOUT even questioning "Where did the Beatles get the idea to do a "revolutionary" WHITE album

Was there an idea to do a revolutionary White album ?
The cover was white simply because their previous 4 offerings {Rubber soul, Revolver, Pepper and MMT} were bang in there with druggy psychedelic covers and the band were never keen to repeat themselves. After distorted fish eyed covers and hippy collages, the latter 2 splayed with colour and more colour, plus lengthy titles or catchy puns, what could be more different than a] a plain white cover and b] to not have a title. Just call it "The Beatles." They never called it the white album, it was just a name that caught on from he public, same way that the band Alice Cooper was called that long before Vince Furnier took on the name Alice. But as the lead singer, people just referred to him as Alice Cooper and it stuck.
All the Beatles believed in the notion of revolution but came at it from different angles. For George it was an inner one that we are individually responsible for, for Paul, it was for "someone else" {eg, Blackbird"} to do ~ he'll encourage and support but not be involved and John was on the fence, he sometimes believed in it and sometimes didn't. He didn't know whether he was into the violence of it or not. Ringo liked the idea of the aftermath of it all, where, like an octopus, he could be in his little pad with "no one there to tell us what to do."
Much of the Beatles material deals with aspects of what revolution is in one way or another from 1967 onwards.

grimtraveller said...

Matt said...

Fard was obviously stark raving mad. I think Elijah Muhammad was too but higher functioning

We obviously see this very differently, but I don't think either were mentally ill. They were consumed by anger that hardened into hate, which, in the 30s and 40s was hardly surprising for a people that were supposed to have been "emancipated" from slavery a century earlier yet still found themselves in states where segregation was in force and in general in a country that regarded them in too many instances as toilet roll, that is, lower than shit itself.
When one then looks at emancipatory religious works {like Exodus} and sees how, in them, God uses ordinary people to break apart strong but unjust kingdoms, it's a short step from marking the USA as Babylon and seeing their eventual destruction. History has seen many seemingly impregnable empires fall.
It's a lot more comforting to think of guys like Fard as mad. Cold sweats are the order of the day if they are compos mentis.

starviego said...

Most people probably think that "Helter Skelter" was merely a product of Charlie's paranoid, fevered mind. But I say that Charlie actually HAD IT ON GOOD AUTHORITY that it was going to come down

This is something of a paradox here. According to Gregg Jacobson, Charlie believed in a Black/White ruckus when he first met him in '68. Personally, I don't think there is any doubt he believed that it would all kick off one day. But lots of people did and still do and they believed it long before the 60s too. There had been evidence of it in Africa {eg, Mau Mau in Kenya} during the 50s as various nations pushed for their independence from the British and French. It was heading that way in South Africa when Nelson Mandela was jailed.
There is nothing particularly eye opening about Charles Manson thinking that the Black man was soon going to start smacking up Whitey in America. And being in jail and hearing that kind of talk from Black Muslims and seeing the Panthers getting increasingly hot is born out by what he said during his own trial in 1970, namely:

"You have many sons in there, many, many sons in there, most of them are black and they are angry. They are mad, and they are mad at me.
I look and I say, 'Why are you mad at me ?'
He said, 'I am mad at you because of what your father did
.'"

No, believing a racial conflict was coming down is not unique. What would be unique would be that a] he eventually decided to start it and b] it would be the prelude to what HS really was which was markedly different from anything the NOI was ever saying.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

WOW! Yet another link

All that really demonstrates is that the detectives on the "Tate case" were exploring all kinds of leads and that they all led nowhere in the end. Blimey, even John Phillips of the Mamas and the Papas was looked at, allegedly because Sharon's husband thought it was him as revenge for dooking Phillips' wife some time previously. The police investigations uncovered lots of dirt on a number of people.

Ali, of course, was part of the NOI from about 1961 to 1975. As a celebrity member, he would have been close to those in power, and would definitely have been in a position to know

Definitely ? Would you be prepared to stake your life on that ? I wouldn't. I like you too much.

This implies that, in the time before Charlie was arrested, the NOI themselves believed Tate/LaBianca was one of 'theirs.'

Well, lots of people had lots of theories about who was responsible. Tate and LaBianca weren't even widely regarded as being linked. I wouldn't at all be surprised if various factions thought that some that they knew were or might have been involved. But what does that prove ? They all would have turned out to be wrong.

The interviewer doesn't state it, but it is implied that she got this theory from her husband. IF Baird got this theory from Ali, then we asked how did The Champ know this? The obvious implication is that others high up in the NOI told him this. Which means that the people that counted in the NOI thought(or knew) Tate/LaBianca were the doings of "the black power movement."

In some church circles, some of your theorizing would be viewed as evangelastic.......

I doubt they were thinking of the Panthers

I think you need to go and have a good look at the history of the Black Power movement with particular emphasis on those three words....

Robert Hendrickson said...

I don't MEAN to be politically UGLY here, BUT hey, the famous Manson Prosecutor didn't even send out a squad car to investigate the Black Muslim connection either

No, he didn't. And why would he ? They had nothing to do with Leno LaBianca and Jay Sebring being murdered.

The REAL question NOW is: When are the BLACKS (who the cops have declared WAR on) going to merge with the Muslims and begin the "Final Conflict" as Manson was TAUGHT to SEE it?

There it is again, that sense that somehow, there is a tie in between what the NOI said would happen and the TLB murders, a tie in that goes beyond the NOI having a set of teachings. It's almost hinting at, well, some kind of responsibility.

AND that is the cause of the relevant ISSUE: Blacks vs Black Muslims

It's a bit like that word "counterculture." It does not mean one specific, definitive thing. Rather, there was lots of overlap between different groups. The ANC in South Africa was like that, different groups making up the conglomerate as opposed to a single entity. Many Black people will have an affinity with the Black Muslims and some of their stance. But only up to a point.


grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

It means YOU are THINKING - enough to disqualify YOU from ever being a "juror."

That's a bit harsh.
If a perp is found guilty, were the jury, or members of it, thinking ?
If a perp is found not guilty, were the jury, or members of it, thinking ?
When is a juror determined to be thinking or not thinking ? What is it that determines which it is and how does one quantify this ?

starviego said...

This was allegedly said by Charlie in the spring of that year. Does that mean Charlie already had made exact plans months before Tate/LaBianca ?

Regardless of our stance on Charles Manson, this is something we can never know. It really can be argued convincingly either way.

Or was he just repeating what he had been TOLD BY OTHERS ?

If one accepts that his head had been filled with apocalyptic stories since boyhood and this had been brought into sharp focus by the Black Muslims he met in jail, then one could argue that in his sermonizing to the Family, these tales, among many other things, provided a healthy seed bed from which to draw material to keep a group of searching youngsters rapt to attention. It lined up with what was happening in the country, especially when one takes into account the riots across many cities by Black people in the aftermath of Martin Luther King's assassination and the activity hotting up with the Black Panthers during '69.

Dreath said...

where can I find the comment about the dead Black Panther found on or near UCLA?

@Dreath:

I don't know if you've come across this one in your research, but if not, George Stimson does an interesting piece on this subject right here

starviego said...



There is one more curious link that needs exploring--The Case of the Case of Grenades.


Paul Crockett heard Manson describing the arms gathered by the Black Muslims:

https://youtu.be/IEVv9nqtZXQ
Part 1
Interview with Paul Crockett in Oct 3, 1969, at the 21:00 mark:
"....So, all of these things he(Manson) told me about being in jail, where the Black Muslims and this and that and the other that he has heard through other cells speaking of having a case of, uh, grenades. ..."

Then there is this passage from Bugliosi, referring to events 15 months later:

Bugliosi, pg557
1-25-71
"From a source close to the Family, LASO had heard what they initially believed to be an incredible tale. While working at Camp Pendleton Marine Base, one of Manson's followers had stolen a case of hand grenades. These were to be smuggled into court on "Judgement Day" and used to free Manson. Again, we didn't know precisely what the Family meant by Judgement Day. But by this time that at least part of the story was true. A Family member had been working in the arms depot at Pendleton, and after he quit, a case of hand grenades was missing."

So the question is, is there a link between these two different references to the 'case of grenades.' Unfortunately the Family member is never named. How many family members had a regular job, much less one that was 60 miles from Spahn Ranch?



Dreath said...

Thanks Grim

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...


IF the NOI ordered Charlie to kick off Armageddon or else

But what would have been the point of that ? And why did the NOI not continue with the armageddon once Charlie started it off ? Your theory falls flat within it's own conspiracy. If Manson was supposed to start the destruction, why didn't the NOI enact the very thing they supposedly believed in, the thing that they believed had been handed to them by Allah, the thing that put them beyond the law ? Charlie was the one for whom no sense made sense. He was the psychedelicatessen, not the NOI.

The real reason, imo, may have been to target Abigail Folger

"Abigail, pathway to Armageddon !" "Femme Fatale Folger Furthers Final Call !"
I can see the headlines now....

In an era in which most white Angelenos couldn't find Compton or Watts on a map to save their life, she probably knew many down there. But of course you'll tell me it's just another coincidence

That what is just another coincidence ? That she knew people in an area she worked in for quite a while ? Nothing coincidental about that. It would be highly bizarre if she had worked in a Black neighbourhood for 6 months and didn't know anyone there !

Since the NOI mosque was located in the black ghetto of LA, it's possible her activities came to the attention of the Black Muslims

Well, I doubt that she was acting covertly !

It must have been galling to them to have this rich white woman come to their neighborhood to show them how to live

I'm not so sure that social work is about showing people how to live as much as it is about helping people that are in need.
That said, in many western cities, there are a lot of White people that have a problem in understanding why it is that so many Black people seem to be more pissed off with those that are helping than with those that seem to be on the more oppressive wing. It's because in many cases Black people in general, having been disadvantaged for so long simply require fairness and a level playing field, not to be kept in a position of victim in need of help.
Pat, Susan and Leslie discovered this in a profound way once they were in jail and the prison authorities took steps to re~educate them and clean up their heads. One of their chosen methods was to have them taught by Black teachers who would point out to them that actually, HS was pretty insulting to Black people as a whole, implying yet again that they could do nothing for themselves, that it had to be White help that got things moving for them. To a large extent, the Panthers and the NOI and other groups were a severe reaction to that mode of thinking which expressed itself in a variety of ways from those on conservative and liberal wings.

reportedly due to burnout or something like that

Possibly more than any profession, at least here in England, social work claims a huge number that succumb to burnout. I have my criticisms of aspects of the social services but any way the wind blows, it's a pretty thankless task.

Maybe she was threatened to leave the neighborhood. Or did those planning Armageddon put her name on a hit list ?

It's an intriguing thought.
However, the thing about "Armageddon" is that it's not exactly something you plan. That was another thing about HS that was so unique, the idea that seven murders could trigger off events that would cataclysmically bring about the end of civilization as it was then known. Usually, in apocalyptic literature and prophecy, the actual details of exactly how something would begin are pretty vague. Helter skelter appears to have been pretty clear. Lots of other bits of it were vague but it's beginning wasn't, certainly not in the mind of Leslie Van Houten.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Of course this theory implies that the planners knew where Folger was living at the time of the Cielo murders. How would they know ? Two words: Winifred Chapman, the maid

Because she was Black ? That conjours up rather stereotypical visions, that all Blacks are essentially the same, hurt the same, think the same, are angry and bitter about the same things, have more or less all passed through the same set of experiences and all know each other.....

You'll remember she politely declined an invitation to spend the night on that bloody night

You seem inordinately keen to pin this crime on the NOI. Not only that, you seem to be implying that Mrs Chapman was privvy to the fact there was to "be a hit on Folger" that night which would lend one to the conclusion that you feel that she was an accessory to murder and got away scot free. And also a woman with a hard enough stomach to know that she was to alert the world to what was to be found at Cielo that Saturday morning.

I'll bet she lived in the ghetto

You can bet that but you don't know that so your theory of Mrs Chapman as secret NOI stooley falls apart before it even has a chance to build.

IF the NOI ordered Charlie to kick off Armageddon or else

I often use the word 'ironic' on these pages but that statement really fits the description as few else could.

Did anybody ever check her associates in da 'hood? Of course not

Have you ever checked whether she had associates in 'da hood' or ever delved into who she was, her character or anything like that ?
I'll say this about Mrs Chapman ~ unless she was an actress of oscar and bafta winning proportions, you're looking at a woman who was utterly traumatized by what she found on 9th August '69. So much so that she had to be sedated, she turned to drink, she disappeared for a length of time {the police couldn't find her} and Aaron Stovitz told Judge Older about what an awkward woman she was. During her testimony, she frequently found she couldn't handle the pressure and a couple of times, Judge Older really had a go at her. I thought he was bleedin' harsh with her, actually, although I could see his point. She was a little cantankerous !
So, was she the greatest actress never to be nominated for an award ?

starviego said...

"why did the NOI not continue with the armageddon once Charlie started it off?"

Read my original post. They DID, they're called the ZEBRA murders.


"it's possible her activities came to the attention of the Black Muslims"

This source says Leno LaBianca also had contacts with the black community:

The Sharon Tate Murders by Peter Maas
From The Ladies’ Home Journal, April 1970 Edition
"There was also the fact that Gibby Folger had done volunteer welfare work among blacks and might have brought them to the house from time to time. As for LaBianca, the owner of a chain of grocery stores, he was known to blacks since some of his markets were in predominantly black sections of the city"
(Yhough I can't find any hard evidence that LaBianca's stores where in the ghetto. Gateway Markets' four outlets were north of downtown LA, not in the ghetto.)


"the thing about "Armageddon" is that it's not exactly something you plan"

See my post. The NOI had been planning it since 1965, at least, and it was due to kick off in 1970.


"...You seem inordinately keen to pin this crime on the NOI. Not only that, you seem to be implying that Mrs Chapman was privvy to the fact there was to "be a hit on Folger" that night which would lend one to the conclusion that you feel that she was an accessory to murder"

Behind Tex, Sadie, and Krenwinkle was Charlie. Behind Charlie was the NOI, in my theory. Behind the NOI was the CIA, in my theory. I don't think Chapman was 'in on it.' She probably heard talk about Folger's appearance in the ghetto, and may have mentioned that she knew where she lived. Only later did she perhaps suspect that others may have used this info to this own ends.


"Mrs Chapman ~ ... she disappeared for a length of time {the police couldn't find her}"

So did Marina Oswald, after her husband's name had become known, care of the CIA. Who was responsible for arranging Chapman's disappearance?

starviego said...

The Sharon Tate Murders by Peter Maas
From The Ladies’ Home Journal, April 1970 Edition
One of the first police theories was that black-power militants, out to terrorize the white community, were responsible for the killings.

So even the police, early on, thought that 'black-power militants' were behind HS? Wow, Bugliosi never mentioned that. More and more, I think someone reached out and told the DA that pursuing that angle would risk a sensitive national security operation being exposed.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

"why did the NOI not continue with the armageddon once Charlie started it off ?"

Read my original post. They DID, they're called the ZEBRA murders


Over 4 years later ? Is God that sloppy ?

This source says Leno LaBianca also had contacts with the black community

Why would the owner of a chain of stores necessarily be known in places where the chain had stores ? Besides which, you pointed out that none of the stores were in "the ghetto." So trying to establish that link is a non starter.

See my post

Believe me, I have. My points and questions are because of the post.

The NOI had been planning it since 1965, at least, and it was due to kick off in 1970

It didn't kick off in 1970 did it ? And if the NOI had been planning it for at least 5 years, why didn't it start when it should, carry on as it meant to go on and achieve it's aims ? Why did it stop after a few months ?

Who was responsible for arranging Chapman's disappearance ?

Trauma. Pressure.

One of the first police theories was that black-power militants, out to terrorize the white community, were responsible for the killings

Not according to their first report. There were 5 theories, three of which were drug related, one was a burglary and the other was a hit.

So even the police, early on, thought that 'black-power militants' were behind HS? Wow, Bugliosi never mentioned that

Bugliosi never mentioned it like he didn't mention a number of other things, namely, they were not important to the story he was telling in his book, nor did it matter in the trial because the correct suspects were all in custody.
But your statement is wholly incorrect. The police did not think Black power militants were behind HS. That is a fantasy on your part. In the 2nd Tate report, we learn that an English lush who couldn't even speak said her Black ex husband had shown an inordinate amount of interest in the case etc. The Tate detectives explored just about every avenue possible ~ but rejected the real lead two days after the murders. Doesn't even come up in LaBianca. The cops put in thousands of hours checking leads. Doesn't mean they thought they were onto something. You're trying to shoe horn 7 into 4½.

starviego said...

WINIFRED CHAPMAN'S MYSTERIOUS DISAPPEARANCE


ON Oct 10, 1969, Winifred Chapman dropped from sight, reappearing nearly four weeks later on November 6th. She allegedly told police she was tired of being pestered by the news media so she left. There are a number of unanswered questions about this event:


--Where did she go? Who was she staying with?

https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=278695
SHARON TATE MAID FOUND ALIVE, WELL
Thursday, November 6th, 1969
"The maid... has been living in virtual seclusion in the Los Angeles area for nearly four weeks, police revealed Wedesday.

The location is never revealed. She must have been well hidden, as the police tried to locate her.


--How was she found? Who discovered her? Did she reappear voluntarily or did police locate her?

http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/sharon-tate-maid-found-alive-well/
Winifred Chapman, reported missing Oct. 10. A police spokesman said she was found alive and well at an undisclosed location in Southern California Wednesday night.


--Why did she leave her ID and money behind?

http://www.mansondirect.com/police-report-tate-2nd.html
SECOND HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION PROGRESS REPORT
On 10-13-69, Mrs. Mamie White reported one of the tenants in her apartment house at 1163 East 46th Street missing. Winifred Chapman... is the missing person Mrs. White reported. She left without her purse or identification which was in a wallet. Mrs. White last saw Winifred Chapman on 10-10-69, in the hallway of the apartment house.

This sounds more like a kidnapping than a voluntary dropping-out-of-sight!


Why didn't she contact family members or the police to reassure them of her safety? Why did she fear for her life?

https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=278695
SHARON TATE MAID FOUND ALIVE, WELL
Thursday, November 6th, 1969
Her landlady.. told police the woman seemed "terribly upset" during the weeks before she disappeared. ....a sister in Denver had expressed concern about her, saying Mrs. Chapman "feared for her life."

Two months had passed after the murders when she went missing. Was she "terribly upset" the whole time, or just in "the weeks" before? If it's the latter, then it suggests something other than her memories were bothering her. And she "feared for her life" beforehand? Was she threat-tripped by the Family? Or maybe someone else.


There is this odd comment from someone who claimed to know her:

http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/sharon-tate-maid-found-alive-well/
comment
"Shortly after the murders she disappeared, and we now know she was in protective custody."

If true, that definitely is more suggestive of a real threat rather than merely pesky reporters. And why would the police keep this a secret, and engage in a charade of trying to find her? Maybe reporters would have asked why this witness, out of all the others, had been threatened and needed protection. This was of course long before cops had identified incriminating fingerprints on that door at the Tate house, and the significance of Chapman's washing down of the doors the day before.

My theory:

Chapman may have realized that she inadvertently given Abigail Folger's location to the wrong people, people who might be described as 'black militants.' Then she hears rumors that 'black militants' may be behind the killings. She may even have tipped her suspicions to the cops. So the 'militants' come to her home in the ghetto and threat trip her. The cops or FBI hears about it, realizes the death of this witness will complicate things immensely, so they swoop in and hold her for a month, to give them time to convince the 'militants' they will not be on the suspect list.

Definitely a kidnapping, though.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

She allegedly told police she was tired of being pestered by the news media so she left

Most conspiracy theorists cannot bear simple answers to simple questions !
Remember this; Winifred Chapman was an ordinary, quiet living Black woman. She wasn't a Hollywood starlet or an heiress or a member of the rock aristocracy or a police detective or politician, all of whom were beginning to gain some experience of being in the papers or magazines. She was a housekeeper. She cooked and cleaned for a living. She suddenly found herself thrust into a nightmare in which she found 3 dead people and loads of blood and had no idea if the killer[s] was still around. She wasn't some 20 year old. She was a middle aged woman. She had to be taken to hospital because she was too hysterical to talk to the cops. That fact alone renders all of her subsequent actions completely understandable ~ if you happen to have any insight into human beings and how we can react under extreme stress. You won't ever see it if your schtick is to surrender everything to your theories.

There are a number of unanswered questions about this event

There are unanswered questions about every event there has ever been since the creation of the world.

Where did she go? Who was she staying with?

Granted, a couple of unanswered questions. Mrs Chapman was a lot smarter than you give her credit for if 47 years later we are still none the wiser !

https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=278695

I'm trying not to be judgemental but when I saw that, let's just say that a number of things slotted into place.
On an unrelated note, I remember David Icke when he was younger. He was a BBC sports reporter and he was damn good. Prior to that, he'd been a goalkeeper with Coventry City but couldn't play football any more.

Why did she leave her ID and money behind?

People do things under extreme stress. Soldiers who have seen death and war may dive to the ground when someone across the street waves at them because they cannot be sure a grenade is not being lobbed at them. Earlier, I said that there were certain professions in which it's people were used to reporters and photographers. Looking at them in the 60s, even they often appear stiff and uncomfortable. How much more would a woman that doesn't want her picture plastered all over the papers react to the kind of media hounding that was becoming par for the course by 1969, especially in the aftermath of this case that not only grabbed the public then, but still does now. One can assume Mrs C knew where she was going to be. Maybe she didn't need or want her ID or money, just to get away. It happens. Pat Krenwinkel after all, left her paycheck behind to go on a whim with Charlie. In fact, look how many people just went with Charlie on a whim. It happens.

This sounds more like a kidnapping than a voluntary dropping-out-of-sight!

If you want it to, it can sound like an elephant on roller skates or a nervous breakdown.

Why didn't she contact family members or the police to reassure them of her safety?

They may have been part of the problem. If family and police don't know where you are, no chance of any leaks.

grimtraveller said...

Why did she fear for her life?

Oh I don't know, maybe the small matter of a savage slaughter and a killer that was on the loose. No one knew the reason for the murders at the time. So Mrs C had no way of knowing whether or not it was someone she had seen at the house that she could identify and who therefore might be looking to silence her.
People react in different ways to stress. Rosemary LaBianca's daughter had a nervous breakdown in the aftermath of her Mum's murder. One of the defence lawyers went on a drunken episode and was arrested for drunken driving when Ronald Hughes disappeared. And not everyone wants their name or picture in the papers. In that 2nd Tate investigation report, Pan Am requested they be left out of the limelight when it came to light they'd flown some sensitive information from their chief pilot in New York about a suspect named Daniel Stanland.

"Shortly after the murders she disappeared, and we now know she was in protective custody."

I note that in the article this comes from, nothing whatsoever is said about her being in protective custody. I also note that you ask the person making the comment to back up what she says. But here you rely on an unsubstantiated claim by an unknown person that could be anyone to inform your theory....
Is this Marie Davis person Black ? Did she live "in the ghetto ?" Would Black people living in the ghettos of LA have a live in nanny ? Was this her new job ? The lady that reported her missing doesn't give the impression Mrs C was now a live in nanny. It's not mentioned at all. If she was a live in nanny, at which points did the Black militants find her ? Where did she live while working at Cielo ?

starviego said...

I have adduced evidence that Folger and LaBianca MAY have been known or had connections in the black community. And now the same may have been true for Gary Hinman:

http://www.mansonblog.com/search/label/Mary%20Brunner
When Bobby was stopped by the highway patrol in San Luis Obispo, he told the officer that he had bought the (Hinman)car from a "negro" for $200. Later on, during the interrogation, he then said that "negroes" had attacked Gary. Later on, during Bobby's 2010 parole hearing he told the board that the reason he put blame on black people is because he wanted to blame the murder on some of the "radical" people that Gary Hinman was involved with at UCLA. He also told the board that Gary was involved with black people that were radicals, and that he (Gary) was into radical philosophies, etc.

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And yet another curious early reference to the 'black militant' theory shortly after the murders:

Interview with Roman Polanski:
http://www.cielodrive.com/archive/a-tragic-trip-to-the-house-on-the-hill/
All week long he had tried to put some of the pieces together. He heard the Hollywood gossip: that the killers were devil-worshippers, that it was a Mau-Mau type slaughter.