Monday, October 17, 2016

Answers or Excuses? A Self-Analysis from Tex Watson


"It is wise to direct your anger towards problems - not people; to focus your energy on answers- not excuses."
        - William Arthur Ward 


"He who is good at making excuses is seldom good at anything else."
        - Benjamin Franklin 


The Following excerpts come from Abounding Love- the website dedicated to the Ministries of Charles D. Watson.....

 
Why the Crimes?  Message From A Former Manson Family Member....

I was 23 years old in August of 1969, when I committed crimes that shocked the nation and sent shock waves around the world. I'm often asked to explain "why" these senseless crimes happened, the difficulty being to answer without justifying them. In an effort to be accountable, that is, responsible for my actions, I offer the following explanation. By no means do these exhaust the reasons, but possibly this will offer a few contributing factors that caused my actions....

OK, so I had never seen this on Tex's website before and I gotta be honest- that opening intrigued me just a bit, so I read it.  I figured that Tex was going to make all the usual nonsensical excuses, and he did. But, he also went a little deeper than just the using religion, and blaming Charlie stuff that you would expect. Today, let us take a look together. Here are a few of the ideas as to why Tex was able to become from a self- analysis written by Tex himself...

Note:All of these quotes were taken from his document. In most cases, I didn't reprint every quote he gave under each Main Idea, but these are the majority of them. Also, all religious quotes added after each Idea were given by Tex himself- that was not my touch. This was the exact format of Tex's document. He listed the specific Idea at top and then put a few quotes or sentences to support the idea under each one. Each supporting quote I selected for the respective Idea is reprinted is in its entirety. These are not parts of paragraphs. This is how he chose to do it...


Tex Did Not Listen To His Parents!    (Honor your father and mother - Ex 20:12a)

I'll never forget my parents standing in the living room begging me not to go to California. I said, " I am 21 and I am going,"  I had never stood up to my parents before in outright rebellion.

The crimes ended up bringing them to their knees, causing devastation, hurt, humiliation and much embarrassment. My siblings were left to hold them up from all the emotional pain, which I so deeply regret."

Tex Says He Suffers From 7 Deadly Sins!  (For the wages of sin is death - Rom 6:23)

It was pride exalting me above the Godly wisdom of my parents. I thought I knew it all. My needs were going to get met one way or another, I never had enough. I was a very lustful person seeking to fulfill my flesh and eyes. Drawn away and enticed by my own desire. Envy was present. longing for benefits enjoyed by others.

My fear of failure caused pent up anger in my heart.

Tex Got Separated From God!   (All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way- (Isa 53:6a)

These sins were the root and effect of my separation from God. I turned from my parents core beliefs and values, shucking off their accountability, thus breaking their hearts.

I was powerless over the effects of my sin, while trying to fill the void in my heart. Unable to control my thoughts and feelings, my life was without restraint, resulting in compulsive behavior.

With the Power of God's love and grace missing in my life, those deadly sins were free to rule, affecting not only myself, but everyone around me.

Tex Made Compulsive Choices!  (Choose this day whom you will serve - Jos.24:15a)

I made one compulsive choice after another beginning at puberty, drinking a beer at 14, and sex at 16 which led to a party life in College.  

Though I worked to save for college, I made foolish choices instead of studying, making the grade and being responsible. I chose to run with the wrong crowd, join a fraternity, have sex, move out West, drop out of College in California, get addicted to drugs and join the Manson Family.

The crimes were simply another impulsive choice while self medicating.

I had a choice to chose life or death. I chose death which brought a curse on a multitude of innocent people. As a result, it has spread to new generations, causing a seed of rebellion to grow.

Tex Lacked Knowledge!  (My people are destroyed because of lack of knowledge - Hos.4:6a)

The crimes were a result of my lack of knowledge. Today, I have the knowledge of the truth that sets one free of deception, the manipulation of others and my own flesh. I believed a lie, resulting in a trail of devastation. 

I was ignorant of so many core things. For instance, the real meaning of love, righteousness, peace and joy; the concept of how thoughts affect emotions, choices of behavior, the wholistic view who I am as a person and the power of right believing, were all things foreign to me.

Tex Was Emotionally Insecure!  (A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways- Jm.1:8)


I became an emotionally insecure person, not accountable to anyone. I was overcome with hurt, frustration, and insecurity. I felt that my significance is based on my importance. It seemed impossible to achieve what was being asked of me. The fear of failure possessed me, causing anger and the eventual murders.

Though my family was reserved when it came to showing affection, I was raised a gentleman. For example I would open the car door for my date. But under the surface I was hurting and fearful, which was the reason for drinking to medicate my pain.

Tex Was Radicalized!  (For as a man thinks in his heart, so is he- Pro.23:7)


When I met up with Manson, I was on a quest for personal significance that I never gained while trying to achieve the goals set for me by my parents. As a young man, I was experiencing an identity crisis. I wanted to matter to someone, to be respected in the eyes of others, to achieve, to earn a sense of value or self-esteem. 

I chose to be loyal to Manson's ideology as a means to attain this goal. I looked at him to bestow on me feelings of significance, instead of returning to my parents dreams in humiliation and failure. I justified violence, never finding my own individual path, nor fulfilling my own goals in life.

I shared a collective belief system with the Manson Family. The ideology seemed feasible as everyone believed it. I experienced a growing commitment to achieve due to group pressure.

Tex was Co-Dependent!  (There is a way that seems right to man, but it's end is the way to death - Pro.14:12)


I was suffering from the debilitating affects of "codependency". I looked for others people approval for a sense of worth and happiness, something that other people could truly not give me. Through peer pressure, I became willing to do anything for the approval of the Family. 

I gave myself to Manson's radical belief's, allowing him to make my decisions. Finally, I became willing to die for him, yielding my life as a sacrifice. I succumbed to his natural charisma, having no identity left of my own. I chose martyrdom behavior, giving my life for foolish beliefs.

Tex Took Drugs! (Don't be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy spirit- Eph.5:18)


It was only 30 days before the murders when I took my first snort of speed, which was the other catalyst. I knew I couldn't carry out Manson's orders without speed., but for two years I already abused marijuana and hallucinogens. 

This allowed my conscious to be overridden so the crimes could be carried out. Still the girls ad I argued whether to go through with it for an hour while driving in the car to the crime scene, but we lost the battle of our minds. Life was not only over for them, but would never be the same for countless others because of my drug use.

On the speed, I became past feeling. But when we returned to the ranch after the crime, I felt my soul had died with the lives I had taken.  





Tex Has Final Words!

But I am going to have mine first ;)

If you listen to this jackass long enough you start to realize that he has been working, for a very long time, trying to figure out himself what the hell is wrong with him. Tex had a life that was much like my own and a hundred other guys I know who grew up in a small town. He had a nice family who owned a small business. He was a popular guy, who was good at sports and was able to go to college. He went through puberty like millions of other guys lol having beer and sex after 8'th grade is not unique. He seems to feel that after being a popular high school athlete, and belonging to a fraternity, The Manson family were the ones to make him feel feel pressure to be a certain way? That really doesn't make any sense. He also mentions having to be judged by accomplishments. Tex seems to feel that the rest of the world gets to play by some special rules. Every situation he explains is something that 90% of young men in America go through growing up. Charlie had a background you could make an argument led him down the wrong path. Not Tex. Sorry, I am not buying it. I have read Tex explain his childhood and teen years, in his own words, in two of his books. He paints a picture for me of a upbringing that was... Average to good.

Look, it takes a very special kind of scumbag to stab a woman in the final stages of pregnancy, and do what he did to those people. What kind of animal goes back for more? You would think he would have been, exhausted, in shock, or at least scared out of his mind after the first night. And this wasn't a shooting either. Bang and its over. This was torture by knife. Very personal and difficult way to kill people. It takes more time and you have to be up close and personal. You have to hear the sounds and see the carnage. If you ask any law enforcement person what the statistics are when a person is stabbed so many times so viciously, they will tell you 90% of the time it is a crime of passion or very personal, and the victim most likely knew the attacker. The struggle, the blood, the sounds of desperation, begging, and slow death. Tex did this to strangers, and then the bastard went back out, and did it again.

Tex doesn't seem to understand why himself if you ask me. He gives every sort of reason in the world and hopes that if he throws enough darts, maybe one or two will stick. The truth to me is, there is no understanding what he did. There is something wrong with him. Tex Watson is one of the scariest bastards on the planet. And what makes it worse, is that you never see a guy like this coming. His life was very normal. Charlie was an older, street talking con. If you weren't smart enough to see his jive, then shame on you. But Tex was the guy sitting next to you in math class. The guy on your baseball team. The one you never think twice about. He looks like one of us.

If you read enough of Tex Watson's site you will see one common theme. Forgiveness. He talks about it, and lists quote after quote about it. Even used the word in the title of one of his on-line books. Tex has made his whole life about forgiveness. To me that can never happen. And, even if Tex does deserve some sort of forgiveness, he sure doesn't get to announce that himself. Tex is a curiosity in a box. He is a life-long psychological study. He is not a human being to me. He knows he has nowhere else to turn, and so is trying to attach himself to God in hopes that can save him. I think that he can try as hard as he wants, but I bet not even God wants this deuche-bag around. But that is just my opinion. Even a Saint shouldn't speak for God ;)  In him I will trust.

But as advertised, I will let Tex have the final words...

There is truly no explanation for these senseless crimes. I understand people who say, "I don't want to hear it." I apologize for the deaths and pain I have caused due to my naive choices for which I take complete responsibility. I'm angry myself that something like these crimes could happen. Today, we hear of mass killings on a weekly basis. My heart is deeply saddened each time, seeing the wake of destruction left behind. What can we do? I have no answers other than God's Word, that says,

 "...if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land" (2 Chr. 7:14).

For the past decades, I've tried to make living amends to the lives I took and the futures that I destroyed in the 60s. I've humbled myself to God, surrendering my life to His will and purpose. I've taken authority over my life, allowing God's power, love and grace to heal, rule and reign in all that I do. I know I can't undo the past, but I do know that God's grace is sufficient for us, and His strength is made perfect in our weakness. So let the weak say, "I am strong!" (2 Cor. 12:9,10). 

God bless you all!

- Your Favorite Saint





65 comments:

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Good job, St.
Tex takes the usual steps of a born-again by speaking in Christian prose, but unlike most people, I don't really have a problem with that. It's what he knows. It's better for him to understand his horrendous mistakes from a theological stance than trying to understand them from where he came from before the murders; that of an irresponsible, highly-immoral drug addict. The former is a platform of thought to analyze, the second isn't. If he had not reformed through Christ, what basis would he have to honestly come to terms with his crimes? I don't think sitting around in prison for nearly 50 years is going to provide a remedy of rational thought, largely because it's such an unnatural state of living.
I'm not so cynical of jailhouse conversions that most people seemed to be. It's not my place to ever question another person's relationship with God. If Tex has found peace and salvation, I say good for him. Some people who live their entire life in the free world never find those things.
My main problem with Tex is his assertion that the world is obligated to forgive him his crimes, in a Christian sense. No. In the same way that I am loathe to impart my morality on others, I am under no illusion that I need to wear the morality of others.
So Tex, it's fair game that the world judge your crimes in an earthly manner; the same earthly manner in which you left Sharon and the others to die horribly in pools of blood. Finding peace of mind is a wonderful thing, but you don't get to redefine the terms of your actions because it now wears like an uncomfortable suit. That doesn't fly in either God's world or man's world.

Sam Smith said...

Tex is a good christian man. He is going to heaven. God bless that poor man.

AustinAnn74 said...

You will never be able to convince me that this slob didn't murder more than he was caught for. We are all aware about his involvement with the murder of Shorty, but what about others? This cowardly wretch tries to convince people that he went from being a dusty, barefoot beaver magnet, to a knife/gun-wielding, blood-thirsty mass murderer in the blink of an eye. You mean to tell me, he didn't have a "trial run" first? They weren't robbing people before this time? It seems like people would end up dead, in some way or another (brutally) when any of these vermin were in the general vicinity. Is that coincidence? Watson & Moorehouse were up in the Ukiah area at one time or another, right? Wasn't there a murder there? The girls, three of which were involved in other murders were in Mendocino. Boom. A murder happened. They slithered thru Olancha. Well, gee....Guess what happened? A helpless old man ended up crawling for help, beaten to a pulp by a group of giggling young people. This Watson anus can quote as many Bible passages as he wants. All he is doing is wasting his bad breath. You see, he has to do this, in order to convince himself that he is forgiven. He is probably frightened beyond belief about what's in store for him when he leaves his revolting shell of a body. Yes, maybe some of those murders were coincidences, but you will NEVER convince me that he didn't have some practice before the big night (s). Those are my thoughts on the subject.....Good post, Saint!

mamapoohbear16 said...

Great post, Saint. So Tex wants us to believe that he and the girls had a rational debate on the way to the Tate residence about whether or not to kill? This is the first time this tidbit of information has ever come to light. Its not in the accounts of Sadie, Katie or Tanya.

So, after Tex revs the car out of Spahn Ranch, and Sadie leans out the window and screams, "We're going to get us some fucking piggies," the four of them sat in the car and had a intelligent discussion about killing an unknown number of people.

"I don't know about this," says Tex."After all, these are innocent people."
"I agree," chimes in Katie. "I learned that killing is wrong when I taught Bible School."
"On the other hand," says Sadie,"I am bored shitless and there is nothing happening at the ranch."
"Good point, Sadie," agrees Tex.
"Whatever," Tanya says, "Just remember, no matter what, I am staying outside. I ain't giving up my cigarette for nobody, not even Charlie. Can't smoke and kill at the same time."
"It's hot as hell tonight," whines Katie. "Lets go there and, like, quickly kill whoever's there, then, God, lets go swimming!"
"Yeah," agrees Sadie.
"Whateves," says Tanya
"I can never refuse you girls," Tex laughs. "We kill, then swim. Last one in's a rotten egg!"

Matt said...

I can't remember where I read it, but I remember reading Watson discussing faith vs. works where salvation is concerned. He is staunchly on the side if faith. In other words he believes that faith in JC alone is all that is required for salvation and eternal life in heaven.

As a seven time convicted killer, I think he HAS to believe that. If for nothing else than to keep himself reasonably sane. I can't imagine the guilt and horror of waking up in prison every day for 47 years and forced to remember what he did. I guess it helps him to believe that his life has some sort of meaning and it wasn't all for naught.


penny lane said...

Thanks Saint ...I love a good Stabby god bothery rant ! Hey Matt..good to see your head :)...sending positive vibes your way:))

Dreath said...

If, indeed, Watson is seeking forgiveness from us all (read 'parole') then he misunderstands the very religion he claims to have embraced for the last 47 years. No one on this earth can forgive Watson.

Forgiveness is not ‘for the benefit of the sinner’. It does not somehow release the sinner from his sins if we forgive them. It is something the one ‘sinned against’ should embrace-

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." Matthew 6:14

Or if you prefer….

“And [Lord] forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.”

The only ones who could benefit from forgiving Watson can’t because he murdered them. The only being who can forgive him waits in his future for those who believe.

In the meantime….

“And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” Mark 12:17

‘Ceasar’ has decided where he belongs.

Thank you, Saint, well done.

Matt said...

Thank you, Penny. I appreciate it.


Mr. Humphrat said...

Ann if you are referring to the mother and grandmother murder in Mendocino county in 68 a previous post by Deb dealt convincingly with that being another murderer, not related to Manson. Or are there other murders up there around that time?
The Olancha one is intriguing for sure as a witness stated Tex was the one she saw there.
MamaPoohBear, that's the first I too have read of there being a one hour debate in the car on the way to Cielo.
Re psychodelics: I heard a brief Brian Wilson interview on NPR on Saturday in which he reiterated "don't do phsychodelics" He's had voices in his head for 50 years and boy he did not want to stay on that subject more than a few seconds. It's very uncomfortable for him to talk about.
Zelda I too am not cynical about jail-house conversions, at least not all of them. I think they can be real, and Tex's could be real. But I do get frustrated by people who couch every thought and experience they've had within a Biblical framework. Ugh.
Off-topic has anyone discussed or read about a new novel called "The Girls", by Emma Cline, based on the Manson girls. I saw some mixed reviews on it.

Suze said...

Mr. Humphrat said...
I do get frustrated by people who couch every thought and experience they've had within a Biblical framework. Ugh.

Meeee too! Ugh...

penny lane said...

yes Mr Hump i have just finished that book...and also American Girls..both manson related...both fiction but I enjoyed them :) I dont mind sending them to u if u want to read them , but not sure how to achieve that ..shame we dont have mansonblog library ....


St Circumstance said...

Hello all. Thanks as always for the compliments. I am stuck in DC this week for work at a stupid convention so it took me a minute to realize this was up.

Tex is just as interesting to me as Charlie. Not nearly as exciting, but as interesting.

He had such a normal upbringing. You can find issues in the background of so many of them, but not Tex. He had the least reason to become so violent and he became the most violent...

It give me chills

mamapoohbear16 said...

One more thing about the discussion the group supposedly had on the way to the Tate residence.

For nearly 50 years, Tex has been playing the victim card himself. "I was under the influence of drugs...I was under the influence of Charlie...I couldn't think for myself."

With that one sentence, he has completely dismissed those excuses. He has, in essence, said, "I was completely coherent enough to have a discussion about whether to go through with the murders. I decided yes, I would."

Lying, murdering rat bastard.

Between being alone in a room with Tex or CHarlie, I would chose CHarlie. Charlie might bore me with his nonsensical rantings, but Tex would kill me within seconds then sweetly ask to be taken out so he wouldn't miss lunchtime.

Mr. Humphrat said...

thanks Penny. I've got too much else to do so the books would probably be wasted on me for now.

Dreath said...

Mamapoohbear said: "With that one sentence, he has completely dismissed those excuses."

You are absolutely correct. I didn't look at that comment from that perspective, thanks.

If that sentence is accurate the crimes that night become premeditated- not just as to say Manson or maybe Watson.

It means they all knew at Spahn or moments later what they were going to do and discussed their choices outside of Manson's influence and agreed to proceed. That sort of undermines anyone saying 'I didn't know what we were going to do' or 'I sort of went into shock when it happened.'......like, say.....Linda Kasabian.

penny lane said...

OMG...The plot really does thicken...lol...but seriously thats really interesting I wonder when Tex first made that "claim"..I mean he couldnt possibly be lying hes been saved and shit.

Dreath said...

No, Penny, he's not telling the truth....(like you didn't know that)......and never will. Of course neither did Kasabian.

St Circumstance said...

Out of habit- I keep checking this pot to see what Mr.H has to say about my work.

It is starting to occur to me that it will be a long time if ever this is the same for me without him. I understand that for the first 75% of my time doing this he was not around...

But once he was he changed this experience for me in a very unique way :)

Robert Hendrickson- Gone but NEVER forgotten!!

Mr. Humphrat said...

I know it's sad to know we won't have RH comments any more. I'm so glad he had that night so recently with those great photos which show how much fun he was having and how much appreciation he got.

Zdena Gaarova said...

He seems to be typical spoiled brat accusing all around except himself. Even a small child knows that punishment for misbehaving come next. He had to know it or he felt from planet of stupidity?

Logan said...

What I don't understand is why he still publicly goes by/associates himself with the nickname "Tex" all these years later...seems like bad publicity to me
...

Logan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grimtraveller said...

Logan said...

What I don't understand is why he still publicly goes by/associates himself with the nickname "Tex" all these years later...seems like bad publicity to me

He doesn't. In his second book Right hand man speaks out he's asked if he'd rather be called Tex or Charles and he says "Charles will be okay. I was only called 'Tex' for the year I was with the Manson Family, then the news media picked it up and it stuck. When people call me that, it's like they're talking to someone else. Not me ! People recognize the name 'Tex' Watson, so the nickname is used only as a testimony."
I think it was George Spahn that first called him the name when he heard him speak. We tend to refer to him as Tex because like he says, it stuck. I think it would have even without there being another Charles in town because it's quite a striking epithet. Also, most people I suspect, just can't bring themselves to call him Charles. It caused enough hassle in the Lotsapoppa incident and when the police were trying to figure out exactly who was involved in the TLB crimes as relayed by Ronnie Howard and Virginia Graham. If Bugliosi is to be believed, it wasn't until December that they found out who had been involved in which murders.
I think Charles Watson was as keen as could be to leave "Tex" Watson as far behind as was humanly possible. Interestingly, at various parole hearings down the years of the other incarcerated killers, both they and LE reps often refer to him as Tex and Charlie as "Manson."

Logan said...

Mea culpa, grim! You make good points. I wrote that only because on my phone, the abounding love website's hyperlink on Google is subtitled "charles 'tex' watson", which struck me as an odd heading.

Dreath said...

Grim quoted: "Charles will be okay. I was only called 'Tex' for the year I was with the Manson Family, then the news media picked it up and it stuck. When people call me that, it's like they're talking to someone else. Not me ! People recognize the name 'Tex' Watson, so the nickname is used only as a testimony."

Why precisely should we care what he feels?

He certainly didn't care about those he murdered. He still doesn't. he doesn't mention them and chooses to forget because 'God' forgave him.

This beast murdered seven people......

Their names are: Steven Parent, Voytek Frykowski, Abigail Folger, Jay Sebring, Leno LaBianca, Rosemary LaBianca and Sharon Tate.

They tried to fight back. They pleaded for their lives. They ran. They cried ......

He didn't care.

He stabbed them...multiple times...dozens of times. Think of that for a moment.

He says: "I was only called 'Tex' for the year I was with the Manson Family."

No, I am afraid, Tex, that is who you are. You are "Tex Watson". You are nothing more then that. You will forever be Tex Watson and you will forever be associated only with the murder of seven innocent people. One hundred years from now you will only be Tex Watson. Nothing else you ever do in your life will ever make you anyone other then.....

'Tex' Watson

That is who you are.

Robert C said...

Posted this in the wrong thread -- my 2 cent take on Tex; I'm guessing there isn't anything Tex could say that wouldn't invite criticism. I find it fairly easy to understand how he went from "mr. normal" to cold blooded killer.

ziggyosterberg said...


A couple of things in his dedication of "Will You Die For Me?" struck me as odd :


"This book is dedicated to my late father and mother, Denton and Elizabeth, who endured so much because of my past foolishness."


1. Dedicates book - where he details murdering people - to his parents.

2. Uses the word "foolishness" to describe his actions (murdering people). Wanted to use "shenanigans" or "tomfoolery", but Chaplain Ray thought that was a tad too flippant.

ziggyosterberg said...


Logan said...

Mea culpa, grim! You make good points. I wrote that only because on my phone, the abounding love website's hyperlink on Google is subtitled "charles 'tex' watson", which struck me as an odd heading.


Yeah, despite evidence to the contrary, he's dropping "Tex" from his name. It's like the mass murderer equivalent to when John Cougar Mellencamp dropped the "Cougar" from his name.

St Circumstance said...

Robert there is quite a bit that Tex says which does not invite criticism from me.

I have said often that as Tex/Susan/Pat/Leslie have gotten older they have become a lot more reasonable/believable to me. I have read all of Tex's books and he does sound honest when he explains different parts of his life. Especially his childhood and teen years....

Which, again, makes it hard for me to understand how he went from what is a totally normal upbringing, in my opinion,to being a cold blooded killer.

Finding it Fairly easy to understand how that happens makes you much smarter than I lol

But you wouldn't be the first or only one in that department. Maybe I should lighten up on the weed lol :)

Mr. Humphrat said...

Tex states "my family was reserved when it came to showing affection" and there's the often alluded to domineering mother which Manson seemed to be well aware of. Then there's this statement on Tex's page: "I was suffering from the debilitating affects of "codependency". I looked for others people approval for a sense of worth and happiness, something that other people could truly not give me." There seems to be a gap between saying Tex had a normal childhood/happy home growing and the above statements. It seems like he attributes his insecurities to sources other than his childhood, when chances are they emerged because he was unprepared to handle the world from the beginning. How different was his childhood from someone like Pat Krenwinkle who had big issues with her father's lack of affection.
In telling his story as a born-again Christian does he soft-sell pains from childhood and family in order to fit his story into the mold of the prodigal son who leaves his good parents and turns to evil things out in the world only to return home (figuritively, in his case, not literally) and find forgiveness from his loving Father (on earth/in heaven)?

St Circumstance said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dreath said...

Ziggy said: " Uses the word "foolishness" to describe his actions (murdering people). Wanted to use "shenanigans" or "tomfoolery", but Chaplain Ray thought that was a tad too flippant."

Nearly every time you comment you make me laugh and keep smiling every time I remember of it afterwards. This one is one of your finest moments.

Matt said...

Mets fans have time to burn right about now.

ziggyosterberg said...


@Dreath - You're too kind. ❤︎ I wish that MHN was still posting. He really was the best. But sadly, I believe that his pork faggot addiction got the better of him.

@Matt - That must be why I recently read Lenny Dykstra's book. The whole book, not just the Mets chapters. Is it the worst book that I've ever read? Can St Circumstance remove a comment faster than you can read it?

Robert C said...

St. C. said : "Which, again, makes it hard for me to understand how he went from what is a totally normal upbringing, in my opinion,to being a cold blooded killer."

I think Tex's upbringing has very little to do with his becoming a murderer. As you and others have mentioned before in so many words, there were (and still are) lots of dysfunctional families out there that did not produced murderers.

Instead I see him as one who sought greater opportunity outside his hometown and hit the 'big city' whereupon he encounters some novel era cultural and social dynamics in progress. Concurrently he finds himself failing at 'success' and in the process losing his self-esteem while gradually medicating his anxiety which ultimately puts him into coincidental contact with Manson. He is then welcomed into the cult, provided with what he wants and becomes malleable and molded much like what drill sergeants do to raw recruits.

In a nutshell, his path was circumstantial with all the key ingredients and timing necessary to covert 'Mr. Clean' into 'Dr. Death'. People will kill for anything that seems justifiable; in war, for their gang and cult, when tempers explode, when little voices in their head says it's ok, etc.

I view Tex's evolving self-assessments over time as not so much playing the blame game but trying to do his own dot connecting. I sense over time he personally finds it frustrating that while he can identify a lot of reasons for his actions, he still doesn't feel completely satisfied as having discovering that ultimate one that nails it.

St Circumstance said...

Wow lol you told me! And you even mentioned Circumstance lol

Well done Sir. Great points

DebS said...

Robert C said...

I view Tex's evolving self-assessments over time as not so much playing the blame game but trying to do his own dot connecting. I sense over time he personally finds it frustrating that while he can identify a lot of reasons for his actions, he still doesn't feel completely satisfied as having discovering that ultimate one that nails it.
------------------------

I feel similar about Tex though I lean more towards Tex believing that religion and faith in God is like some sort of magic eraser that will wash his sins away simply because he has found God. He has a, if God can forgive him why the heck can't people understand he has seen the error of his ways and has reformed, attitude. Tex just does not understand that what he did goes well beyond any mortal forgiveness and he deserves nothing in the way of compassion.

Tex comes up for parole in the coming week. He will have a hearing on Thursday, October 27th, 10:30am.

grimtraveller said...

Robert C said...

I view Tex's evolving self-assessments over time as not so much playing the blame game but trying to do his own dot connecting

I agree. I noticed the same thing with Leslie in her recent hearing. Quite a number of people came out and had a pop at her, saying she was making excuses like the forced abortion, the "times," the drugs, her age in terms of being mouldable in the hands of a charismatic con merchant like Charlie, finding that contemplating and being willing to murder was one thing but actually being there with an expectation to do it was another, Tex telling her to "get to it" and stab Rosemary etc.
But I don't see it that way. For decades people have been asking her how she came to be where she ended up and she's had a long time to think about it and she does so. Tex is pretty much the same. Even Charles Manson does this. With Tex, his conversion to Christ makes it all the more poignant as he can see the horror of his life up to the age of 23 through lenses that are far more searing than that of human beings.
I don't think there is any one moment or any fork in the road that determines that Charles Denton Watson becomes Tex, speed crazed knife wielding homicidal maniac.

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

If you listen to this jackass long enough you start to realize that he has been working, for a very long time, trying to figure out himself what the hell is wrong with him

Isn't "jackass" a bit harsh, particularly as what you follow it up with is actually a good thing ?

Tex had a life that was much like my own and a hundred other guys I know who grew up in a small town

Except though, that he is not you nor you him, despite what "I am the walrus" purports in it's opening acid drenched lines. Even identical twins will react differently to the same things, much less people that aren't even related or know each other. Sometimes, we can identify with similar experiences to ours but in reality, that you would have done "X" in "Y" situation doesn't mean everyone or anyone else from a similar place or scenario to you would have.

Every situation he explains is something that 90% of young men in America go through growing up

Yes, but remember, Tex is speaking from a specific viewpoint and that viewpoint has been shaped by his response to a life in Christ and therefore it's unavoidable that he will pitch right and wrong in very particular terms and he'll see some of his actions growing up as being wrong.

Charlie had a background you could make an argument led him down the wrong path. Not Tex. Sorry, I am not buying it. I have read Tex explain his childhood and teen years, in his own words, in two of his books. He paints a picture for me of a upbringing that was... Average to good

In Christian doctrine, none of that matters because the key wheel upon which everything turns is that all human beings are estranged from God and that through Christ God has made a way back to him so things don't have to be as they are.
A cursory glance at the backgrounds of those that have been involved in crime at all levels and of all kinds will reveal that there is no one particular grouping that is exempt. Many people with good upbringings have ended up in jail just as many who had major disadvantages would never have dreamed of doing anything that would land them in the clink.
Upbringing and advantage have little to do with what is wrong with the human race.
Sometimes, we seem to avoid the reality that some people with money and what we'd term "advantages" like to live on the wrong side of the law in the same way that it can be hard to accept that some "good girls" like "a bit of rough"......;guys that are out of their class structure {ie, perceived "lower"} that will treat them like shit but who represent more excitement than their closeted lives currently offer.

Matt said...

Actually, I removed that comment. Saint isn't an admin so he can't. I don't like deleting anyone's comments but when an author puts effort and soul into a post and some old fart who knows less about the subject matter than my gerbil thinks he can dismiss it as verbose then the delete button is easy.

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

He seems to feel that after being a popular high school athlete, and belonging to a fraternity, The Manson family were the ones to make him feel pressure to be a certain way?

Well weren't they ?
Funnily enough, even Charlie alludes to that when, in George's book it's pointed out that having had far greater life experience, it's natural that all these young people would elevate him to a certain status in which what he said would be far more substantial and considered than anything these runaway teenagers and early 20 somethings would come out with.
A number of former Family members either state or allude to the same thing, that there was a group mentality after a while that laid bare what those that wanted to stay had to fall in with. And one had to go with changes as and when they came up.
Frankly, there is nothing at all unusual about that. Virtually every group you will ever come across does that to a greater or lesser extent. It may be subtle and not blatant or it may scream in your face but it's part of the way we operate as human beings. Blimey, political parties thrive on such leaning. Armies can't exist without it, successful sports teams maintain much success that way, churches have mastered that art and social drinkers and drug takers leave most groups trailing behind.....and it starts when we're kids. Look in any nursery or school playground or even among siblings before they ever start school.
I daresay that Tex encountered pressure to be a certain way from a number of sources, not least his actual family, but I can't see why the Family shouldn't be included among them. It's not the same as saying that they made him into a murderer.

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

Tex doesn't seem to understand why himself if you ask me.....

Is that a good thing or a bad thing ?
Come to think of it, how often do any of us truly understand why we do particular things ? We understand that we do them, but the actual why isn't always obvious and the reasons we sometimes pose may not be at all accurate. Why does one like a particular song or person ? You might know what you like about it/them, but not necessarily why.

The truth to me is, there is no understanding what he did

On the other hand, understanding someone that did what he did may not be an impossibility. In that sense, I guess we're sort of fortunate that all the incarcerated killers and some of those they associated with were of the kind that didn't keep their mouths closed so we have heard lots of stuff from them collectively over 47 years.

And what makes it worse, is that you never see a guy like this coming. His life was very normal

Which part ? He felt emasculated at home, he was easily influenced when he left it, he liked drugs and lived on the wrong side of the law for two years before he murdered. He was a criminal before he met Charlie. People that knew him before he went to California have mentioned that when they saw him, he was changing, so I'm not sure how accurate it is to say that you'd never see him coming because he was so normal.
Would one have seen it in any of the Family ?
Bugliosi even made the point about Charlie that there was no sustained history of violence on his record. Few if any would have seen him getting involved in conspiracy to murder back in the days when he was showing those around him the way. Even Susan with all her apparent talk and rough ways, how many saw her coming ? Who saw Pat, who used to look after the kids, coming ?

Charlie was an older, street talking con. If you weren't smart enough to see his jive, then shame on you

That strikes me as something of a contradiction. The point of jive is that you can't see through it.
These things have nothing to do with being smart. I suspect some damn smart people died in Georgetown and Waco. Damn smart people OD on heroin and blast their psyches with crack. Smart people do a lot of daft things !

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

Tex has made his whole life about forgiveness. To me that can never happen

It isn't up to you.
Rosemary LaBianca's daughter forgave him at one point. Many people online have been nothing but insulting about her and calling her actions into question, as though forgiving the guy that murdered your Mum and Stepdad was some easy thing that she did so that people would comment how nice she was.
I'm interested that there are people who believe even God couldn't forgive Charles Watson. God'll forgive anyone that genuinely wants it and is prepared to turn around and assent to living his way.

And, even if Tex does deserve some sort of forgiveness, he sure doesn't get to announce that himself

If you had a concept of how much "sin" is offensive to God and the lengths he went to to help us get out of state that continually gets in the way of any relationship we can have with him, you'd understand why Tex continually "announces" it. It's not that different to finding himself on death row, knowing he deserves to die for what he's done, then, through no effort of his own, receiving a reprieve. It's all the more powerful because a short time later, the death penalty was reintroduced in California. That's the kind of thing you will not forget. And if God gives you a second chance and you value it and you want others to know about it and let them know in a real way that it's available to them, then you will keep singing it from the rafters. You'll sing like a bird that as a 7 {officially} time murderer that deserved death and eternal damnation, you've actually been forgiven by someone who goes on to help you turn your life around. If you're in jail, there'll be a natural bent towards trying to bring that "good news" to other inmates and trying to show them that whatever they've done, they are not beyond God's love and action and that God can actually make something of their pitiful existence.

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

He knows he has nowhere else to turn, and so is trying to attach himself to God in hopes that can save him

It doesn't work that way, mate. It's God's initial offer. It's God's call. It's God's initiative. All Tex had to do was what any Christian did in the first instance and admit that he needed God and accept God's pronouncement of sinfulness in the human being and offer of salvation.

Matt said...

I remember reading Watson discussing faith vs works where salvation is concerned. He is staunchly on the side if faith. In other words he believes that faith in JC alone is all that is required for salvation and eternal life in heaven

People often present "faith in JC alone" as almost a mere mental assent, without being cognizant of what the words that are translated as "faith" and "belief" actually are, let alone their meaning. They are verbs and adjectives in an active sense. Even when the negative form is used, they are in an active sense {eg, "unbelievers"}.
It's a biblical concept all the way through that one shows one's faith in Christ by their actions. So a person "believing" that JC has saved them isn't just thinking this and hey presto, everything is A~OK. There's a whole slew of activity, mental, social and otherwise, that goes into believing in Christ. It doesn't mean for a moment that the believer is suddenly perfected somehow. It takes a lifetime of learning, re~learning and unlearning and sifting. The least of Charles Watson's worries is whether people that don't know him and that hate him don't like the fact that God has forgiven him.

grimtraveller said...

Matt said...

As a seven time convicted killer, I think he HAS to believe that

That's the curious thing Matt. He doesn't. It's actually a lot easier not to "believe" it than it is to believe it. A belief with the requisite action that sustains you in every situation. A belief that, in those times when God seems distant, not interested, slow to act, putting one through the wringer of testing, or to be exposing one's doubts, it is not easy to believe. Almost everything the world about you seems to say or bring out militates against what seems like dumb primitive idiocy but which is the bedrock of what keeps the Christian going. On top of that is one's own personal weakness and the ease with which one can slip back into old ways.
Believing it is living it.

If for nothing else than to keep himself reasonably sane. I can't imagine the guilt and horror of waking up in prison every day for 47 years and forced to remember what he did

I think there are tons of people that have murdered, raped, sexually abused, robbed, cheated, neglected and done all manner of nastiness that feel absolutely no guilt whatsoever. There are and have been and will continue to be loads of soldiers that committed all kinds of atrocities in conflict who will justify it themselves and say "well, it was war. They were the enemy. It was them or us, kill or be killed." We're great at eliminating a sense of wrongdoing on our part.
Watson is often slammed for saying that he had no feeling for his victims and is equally slammed for commenting on how it was God that really took him to depths that he had to go in order to see the horror of what he'd done. That tells me that until God took him to those places, he'd at best scratch the surface then cast off such thoughts. That he even separated himself from the Family, fought extradition all the way and went for a diminished capacity plea is a good indicator that way back when, Charles Watson was looking out for number one.

I guess it helps him to believe that his life has some sort of meaning and it wasn't all for naught

Can't argue with that. But once again, it should be stressed that it's God that turns it that way, not Tex. Without God in his existence, unless his mind caved in under the pressure of guilt, I doubt very much that he'd be sorry in any way and while I'm not saying it wouldn't bother him at all, it's at least arguable that he'd not lose much sleep over it.

grimtraveller said...

Dreath said...

If, indeed, Watson is seeking forgiveness from us all (read 'parole')

I'd be surprised if he would count parole as some kind of societal forgiveness.

No one on this earth can forgive Watson

Not true. Susan LaBerge, Rosemary LaBianca's daughter, forgave him. One person's actions, particularly if murderous, can have an effect that goes beyond only the direct victim[s] or their family so at some point Watson may have had to ask other people for forgiveness. What it doesn't do is absolve him of murder, even if all the family members of all the victims forgave him and in particular, it does not mean that he deserves to get out of jail or should not pay the price of his actions.
Freedom in Christ is experienced in whatever situation the believer finds themselves.

Forgiveness is not ‘for the benefit of the sinner’

Sometimes, it is. If one has to get biblical about it, there are a number of moments in the various narratives of the bible where someone asks for or seeks forgiveness. It is certainly for their benefit. In real now, today, life, when one asks God for forgiveness, there are a series of things happening but ultimately there is some benefit for the sinner.

It does not somehow release the sinner from his sins if we forgive them


That depends on what you mean by "release the sinner from his sins." When Steven was stoned to death, he asked God, as he was dying, not to hold the sin against his killers. Did God go along with that or did he ignore it ? Jesus had done the same thing as he was dying. He was the one that brought the people God's principle and wish on the matter. Come to think of it, Moses asked God to forgive the Israelites when they were ready to stone him {!!} and God did.....So if God wants his followers to be forgiving, their forgiveness to others must carry some weight with him. The principle and therefore the action of forgiveness is obviously important to God.

Charles Watson said...

the girls and I argued whether to go through with it for an hour while driving in the car to the crime scene

Hmmm.....
He says different things in his books. In his first one, he says "I told the girls we were going to the house where Terry Melcher used to live because I knew the place, the layout, and that when we got there we were going to kill everyone we found and get their money......when I pulled up to the big gate at the end of the private drive, directly under a power pole, I told the girls we'd all have to be truly one, truly together to do what we had to do" while in his second one he says their minds were in turmoil but they were silent. Susan Atkins told the grand jury:
Q:Did Tex drive you directly to Terry Melcher's former residence?

A: We sort of got lost on the way. I think we took a wrong turn and ended up somewhere in Mulholland and we went directly there.

Q:What did you discuss in the car, Susan, as you drove to Terry Melcher's former residence? Who said what?

A: Tex did most of the talking. In fact, to my recall, he did all of the talking.

Q:Did Tex tell you why he and you three girls were going to Terry Melcher's former residence?

A:To get all of their money and to kill whoever was there.

I personally don't believe that there was a debate about it although I accept there could have been, particularly given the scene the next night with the 2nd death squad.
Yet I'm not saying he's lying. I think he believes it. But his two books, valuable as they are contain what appear to be a mish mash of repeated stories {found objects} when it comes to details of the two nights of murder.



ziggyosterberg said...


Dear Jesus,

I spent my Saturday night/Sunday morning spamming a blog in support of a psychopath who murdered a pregnant woman + 7 other people. You must be so proud of me right now.

Dreath said...

Grim said: "I'd be surprised if he would count parole as some kind of societal forgiveness."

I believe he wants to get out and that is why he has done everything he has done since he went in- because he is a sociopath- not because he even cares about being forgiven.


Grim said: "Not true. Susan LaBerge, Rosemary LaBianca's daughter, forgave him."

Is true, he didn't kill Rosemary LaBianca's daughter.

Grim said: "When Steven was stoned to death, he asked God, as he was dying, not to hold the sin against his killers."

I think you are making my point and perhaps disagreeing out of habit. "Steven asked God to forgive his killers" insert 'Parent' after 'Steven'. Yes, he could forgive Tex. The problem for Tex is he can't because Tex murdered him.

St Circumstance said...

Grim said:

A lot lol

That's ok with me :) but I take two issues and two only

1. It is for me to say in my opionion he can never be forgiven. I can say as I chose in my opinion. I didn't say he can't be forgiven by anyone else. Just in my opinion. And in my opinion he cannot.

2. I do not think jackass was too harsh at all. I have in the past, and will again in future, use much worse insults when regarding Tex. Considering what he did- jackass is not to harsh at all in my estimation.

But as always Grim- and everyone else- thanks for the thoughts.

Robert C said...

St.C said: "It is for me to say in my opionion he can never be forgiven."

I tend to agree to the extent that no amount of saying "I'm sorry" can make up for what he did even given the mitigating 'circumstances' (lol). For that reason, as far as I'm concerned, he should remain in jail for the duration although I wish there was some way he could pay financially for his extended incarceration.

As an aside I also thought it was an abomination that he was allowed to produce off-spring (no offense to the children who had no choice in the matter).

I don't think we'll ever know for sure if Tex adopted his faith to get out of jail early, or did he do the same but eventually came around to believing his dogma, or was he altruistic from the start. But I do believe what Matt said earlier that it's hard to believe he could live with himself without some means of self medication, and his adopted faith was just about the only path available in prison to do that.

grimtraveller said...

Mr. Humphrat said...

I too am not cynical about jail-house conversions, at least not all of them. I think they can be real, and Tex's could be real

Agreed. It occurred to me a while back that jail is one heck of a place to meet with Christ. The world at large can be perceived as dark enough, but unlike out here, in jail one gets no respite, little opportunity to be alone for a considerable length of time and clear one's head in a, well, 'clean' place. There's all this stuff going on around you all the while and no escape from it.
Tex could well be a fake. After 41 years of saying he's been following Christ and at 70 years old however, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
That doesn't translate to "give him parole" though.

But I do get frustrated by people who couch every thought and experience they've had within a Biblical framework. Ugh

I'm completely with you on that one. It drives me up the wall and has done for a number of years.
But having been there myself, I understand it. I can see it even clearer in the case of someone that had a Christian upbringing, rebelled against it, went down a path of squalor then returned to a Christ leaning way. I find that there's often a subtle difference between those that try to rely on being led by the spirit of God and those that rely on the bible.
The actual biblical writers often wrote in common language, "the language of the market and the playground" as one translator put it but many of the translations of the bible before the 1960s, certainly many of the popular ones that caught on publicly, were translated with such royal flowing language that bore little relevance to the way ordinary people spoke.
I've known tons of people that feel that this is the kind of thing that makes them different as Christians, rather than reflecting God in one's behaviour, particularly in testing times.
With Tex, I guess he tries to show that the biblical writers through their stories, poems and autobiographies had deep insights into the human condition as he presents himself as someone that has long realized the error of his ways. Scripture for him will contain various yardsticks by which he measures himself.

St Circumstance said...

I too miss MHN and Equinox as well. Here is hoping they are well

grimtraveller said...

Robert C said...

no amount of saying "I'm sorry" can make up for what he did even given the mitigating 'circumstances'

That's true.
There again, he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he says he's sorry and regretful, he gets slagged off as a liar/sociopath/fraudster/desperate religious jerkoff. Were he to say he's not at all sorry, he'd get slagged off with a few choice terms.
That a person however, is forgiven by God doesn't mean at all that everyone else should do likewise. Often, why God's forgiveness means so much to the person receiving it is because they know they don't deserve it and there isn't usually a queue of punters lining up to give it !


he should remain in jail for the duration

Unless he comes out as a really old man, I'd be surprised if he doesn't eventually die in jail.

As an aside I also thought it was an abomination that he was allowed to produce off-spring

I think it showed some disturbing cunning on his part. If anything was aimed at getting him an early release date, I'd point at that. In a sense, he said words that are skewed very much in that direction in one of his parole hearings when he was asked why he had children.


I don't think we'll ever know for sure if Tex adopted his faith to get out of jail early

Well if he did, that's worked well !
In one of his earliest parole hearings, Steven Kay said words to the effect that he thought that it was a good thing that Watson did in turning to religion and getting himself together....and that he would be so much more use in jail now !

mamapoohbear16 said...

For nearly 50 years, Tex has been playing the victim card himself. "I was under the influence of drugs...I was under the influence of Charlie...I couldn't think for myself."

That's debatable. Since at least 1978 he's taken full responsibility for what he did. Robert C mentions 'mitigating circumstances' ~ those mitigating circumstances are part of the explanation of how things ended up as they did, not as the sole cause. All of the things he mentions are true {and to some extent are mirrored by Pat, Leslie, Bruce, Clem and the late Susan, not to mention Poston, Watkins, Lake, Wildebush, Hoyt.....}. None of the things he mentions absolves him of responsibility or guilt.

Dreath said...

I think you are making my point and perhaps disagreeing out of habit

That was an almost Bugliosi and Kanarek moment.....
I wasn't making your point, rather, I was demonstrating {perhaps not well} that there are more dimensions to forgiveness than the purely individualistic one that you brought. The bible passages you used are by no means the only ones on the subject and only show one aspect of it. As many people have found over the years, proof texting by it's very nature is heavily slanted rather than an attempt at balance. We find it hard to handle paradoxes. Yet they exist.
Disagreeing out of habit, I regard as idiotic. There are quite a few places where I've agreed with you and quite a few places where I don't and quite a few places where I've picked up something interesting and ultimately valuable from something you've said, regardless of whether I agreed with it or not. On two of the points you made about forgiveness in the absolute way you put them {namely; "No one on this earth can forgive Watson" and "Forgiveness is not ‘for the benefit of the sinner’"}, there's no habitual reflex ~ I fundamentally disagree with you

grimtraveller said...

Logan said...

I wrote that only because on my phone, the abounding love website's hyperlink on Google is subtitled "charles 'tex' watson", which struck me as an odd heading

I wasn't having a go at you, Logan. What you said struck a chord with me because I recall a few places reading him downplaying the name 'Tex' and for the purposes of balance, thought it only fair to quote what he had actually said in one of his books. On his website, he is down as "the former Tex Watson" and in his second book he explains why.

Matt said...

grimtraveller said...

Can't argue with that. But once again, it should be stressed that it's God that turns it that way, not Tex


If you believe in bullshit like that.


Dreath said...

Matt: well said.

joseph esposito said...

Saint makes posts with the skill of a prosecutor, he is well read and lays out a good argument. Grim is also highly intelligent & well read, I would add to that, wise and charismatic as well. My post debate analysis: Saint should be called 'Grim' and Grim should be called 'Saint'... Grim... I'm going to petition God to make a place in heaven for Robert Hendrickson, and then finish smoking my bowl. Peace Brother...

grimtraveller said...

Dreath said...

Why precisely should we care what he feels?

I didn't ask you to care about what he feels. I was replying to Logan's point. We {and those that knew him in the Family} universally refer to him by a name he ceased using in 1969. Some people reading these pages at some future point may wonder about it.
That said, I am interested in what this particular set of murderers think and feel about what they did, how they got to be there in the first place, how they've coped with it for 4+ decades and how they're dealing with it now.
But that's me.

He certainly didn't care about those he murdered

And he's said that repeatedly.

He still doesn't. He doesn't mention them

That's an interesting one. He has mentioned them, but as he killed them, there's not much he can honestly say. On the other hand, he mentions their family members whose lives he devastated. Pat, Leslie and Susan when she was alive did that. In reality though, not knowing the people whose lives he ruined, beyond apologizing, what can he say ? On a number of occasions, members of the victims' families have demonstrated that they're not interested in anything he {or for that matter, the others} has to say. If an apology is forthcoming, it's ignored. If it's not forthcoming, then it's seized upon.
Them's the breaks for a murderer.

and chooses to forget because 'God' forgave him

That forgiveness enables him to get on with living, knowing there's nothing on earth he can do to make amends for murder.
When Susan Atkins helped save the life of a fellow inmate, that didn't make amends for her direct involvement in the deaths of Wogiciech Frykowski and Sharon Tate. But it's a good thing she was on hand to do something to save someone that was about to die.

This beast murdered seven people......
They tried to fight back. They pleaded for their lives. They ran. They cried ......
He didn't care.
He stabbed them...multiple times...dozens of times. Think of that for a moment


And he didn't get away with it.

He says: "I was only called 'Tex' for the year I was with the Manson Family."
No, I am afraid, Tex, that is who you are. You are "Tex Watson". You are nothing more then that. You will forever be Tex Watson and you will forever be associated only with the murder of seven innocent people. One hundred years from now you will only be Tex Watson. Nothing else you ever do in your life will ever make you anyone other than.....
'Tex' Watson
That is who you are


Well, we see that differently. I think that in many instances, a person can move on from terrible things that they have done. They may spend the rest of their days paying that penalty and as I've pointed out on a number of occasions, Tex can't cry if he dies in jail. He can't say that the system has not treated him fairly.

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

Robert there is quite a bit that Tex says which does not invite criticism from me.
I have said often that as Tex/Susan/Pat/Leslie have gotten older they have become a lot more reasonable/believable to me. I have read all of Tex's books and he does sound honest when he explains different parts of his life. Especially his childhood and teen years....
Which, again, makes it hard for me to understand how he went from what is a totally normal upbringing, in my opinion,to being a cold blooded killer


With some people, if they go on to commit murder, it may not come as a surprise whereas there are others for whom it will come as a surprise. I've known kids who went on to commit murder and rape. In some instances, I wasn't at all surprised. In some, I was. Especially the ones that were really good company and were truly hilarious and kept us in stitches for many a year. Two of them in particular were deep, funny and had so much to offer the world and could have done so much with their lives. And now one of them is doing a life sentence while the other is dead, shot in the commission of a robbery, having murdered.
In truth, even those with good, solid upbringings can be attracted by life on the wrong side of the law. After all, it's pretty exciting and doesn't appear to be so humdrum. There is the risk that having started on that road, an escalation to heavier, weightier matters in the underworld becomes inevitable. As far as I'm aware, I've known 6 murderers {off the top of my head} and none of them began their criminal lives by committing a murder. None of them killed in self defence either.

grimtraveller said...

Robert C said...

People will kill for anything that seems justifiable

Rarely was truer word said.

DebS said...

He has a, if God can forgive him why the heck can't people understand he has seen the error of his ways and has reformed, attitude

If he does have that viewpoint, then he's been naive for a long time. Few people congratulate someone that trusts in God's forgiveness, murderer or otherwise ! And why should they ?

St Circumstance said...

Grim said:

A lot lol


I know......
You tend to come up with some really grand subjects that get the old brain working and invite lots of discussion and comment of varying shades.

It is for me to say in my opinion he can never be forgiven. I can say as I chose in my opinion. I didn't say he can't be forgiven by anyone else. Just in my opinion. And in my opinion he cannot

Sure, but it just struck me as an odd opinion given that at least one other human being {Suzan LaBerge} had forgiven him. Had it been that he didn't deserve it or should never have been granted it or should never be forgiven or that whoever did forgive him was a twat, I can dig that. But can't ? If someone already has then that opinion is of no consequence.

Matt said...

If you believe in bullshit like that

Some of the sweetest vegetables we'll ever eat were grown in bullshit.

joseph esposito said...

My post debate analysis: Saint should be called 'Grim' and Grim should be called 'Saint'...

I've never found St to be grim at all. Quite the opposite, actually.
St Circumstance would make a great name for a band or album.

St Circumstance said...

Saint Circumstance is a great Greatful Dead song lol ;)

Dreath said...

Except I keep wanting to call you Saint Stephen

St Circumstance said...

Lol

Matt said...

Wherever he goes the people all complain...

grimtraveller said...

I know how he feels ! ☺