Friday, April 14, 2017

You just never know...

Last night Autumn, a friend of the blog was at Souley Vegan in Oakland celebrating her birthday when she realized her b-day present was sitting at the next table eating southern fried tofu. Yep, Clem.

After tofu, his band took the stage.

Hard to reconcile this old fella with the neck-bearded kid in the Hendrickson films & DEATH TO PIGS joking about killing his parents. To everyone else in the restaurant he was just another patron/musician, but to Autumn it was Christmas in April. Who would think that he was once Scramblehead, mixed up in the crime of the century and the only member of the Manson Family convicted of murder to win parole?

Just goes to prove that everyone has a story... even the old lady next to you in line at the grocery store - with or without the neck beard...








112 comments:

St Circumstance said...

Amazing lol. What a surprise for you and Happy Birthday Autumn!!

Clem is such an amazing story to me. The one everyone thought was so crazy turned out to be crazy like a fox.

I hate to give any of them credit for anything but he does have musical talent in my opinion and he seems to have done ok with his second chance. Good for him I guess.

Bobby and Bruce must be wondering how in the hell that happened.

Thanks for these pics. Great stuff.

DebS said...

This is great! Thanks so much Autumn for thinking of us and sending the pictures and video. Happy Birthday!!

Clem may have had the only card that could be played for leniency and that is why Bobby and particularly Bruce still sit in prison. He has done well since his release but still carries the Manson Taint preventing him from sticking with one band.

stoner van houten said...

i drive past that place all the time at work..PG&E has a yard right down the street..im calling them today to find out the name of the band and when there playing next.?...looks like were having ''vegan food'' one night on the mansonblog tour ...LMAO!!!!!!

Suze said...

Deb! Manson's "taint"?!? I'm not going to be able to unthink that now! Ugh...

Panamint Patty said...

Only you, suze. Lol

St Circumstance said...

I gotta say....

I - personally- don't ever want to meet any of them. I wouldn't know what to say. I don't respect them or what they did and I'm not a fan. I don't cheer them or look at them as anyone special.

But to able to sit in a room and just watch one of them perform without having the responsibility of communication must have been surreal and fascinating...

Robert C said...

Ha-ha ... well at least he plays lounge muzak for food ! But I imagine it may have been a little rough in life having to either work for others where questions aren't asked or for oneself with a murder/death sentence rap sheet hanging around.

I agree it's nice to see him almost going the distance and, as far as we know, keeping it all clean and civil. Perhaps that should be noted by the Guv for BD & LVH.

As an aside, looks like an interesting guitar. Can't see well but maybe a Fender Squier (short neck) that's been upgraded to a Stratocaster ? :-)

Nice Find, Autumn.

grimtraveller said...

Robert C said...

as far as we know, keeping it all clean and civil. Perhaps that should be noted by the Guv for BD & LVH

It should be.
Both Bruce and Leslie have always said they were never sure whether their victims were actually dead or not when they took the knife to them so Clem, of those three, remains the one who definitely looked into the whites of the eyes of the victim.
And as such remains the anomaly of Charlie's circle ~ the paradox that shatters both sides of the fence. By remaining clean, productive and crime free {as far as we know} he demonstrates the underpinning of Charlie's group was false ~ that actually, family and straight society were not perhaps such a bad thing after all and that as free as Charlie claims to be in jail, there's nothing like being free on the outside.
But to the winning side {ie, the law, society etc} he also shatters the underpinning thought of many of those that uphold the law who believe that people that commit heinous crimes cannot change for the better and in some cases should be dead.

St Circumstance said...

I don't ever want to meet any of them. I wouldn't know what to say

I would say "do you want to do an interview ?"
I'd spin it to be something along the lines of how we change through the various stages of life, retaining some thoughts, shedding others.

I don't cheer them or look at them as anyone special.

Well, I don't cheer them either but because I'm interested in certain of them, there are loads of questions I'd want to ask.
On my travels, I meet various interesting people. I used to know a receptionist at a place I used to deliver to and there was a time I hadn't seen her for about 5 months and when I saw her next I commented on the fact. It turned out she was on holiday in her country and the country she was from suddenly erupted in civil war and she had to walk across two countries to escape with her 3 young kids while being pursued by soldiers. Another guy that's a night security man used to be a soldier and told me he had killed 9 people in his time. Whether I'd call them special is up for grabs but their stories fascinate me and I asked various searching questions. I'd do the same if I ran into people that we've spent years reading about and commenting on.

Eslespaul said...

Hard to believe it's the guy in those old Manson family documentaries from 1972 . YouTube keeps taking the 72 video down .

David said...

Grim said,

"I would say "do you want to do an interview ?"

Grim, I'm going to have to agree with you. I would love to hear what he would have to say about the second night. If you think about it he is in a fairly unique position of being able to utterly discredit Kasabian or completely corroborate her story. Either way it would silence more then one critic.

St Circumstance said...

My question to both of you is why and then what?

Are you going to believe an old man who is telling you a story while trying to distance himself from something he is ashamed of?

More important. What if he was honest ?

You want to stand next to someone while they tell you what it was like to take the life from another person?

What would you say next?

Cool?

Give him a speech why it was wrong?

What do you say to someone who did what they did?

Besides to say very bad things- I don't know why you need to get THAT CLOSE and personal to Murderers ????

Staring from a safe distance in a safe environment is thrilling enough for me lol

David said...

Saint,

I'd interview him by phone if I could (although I'd prefer to have him under oath-not that that stops anyone from lying).

"Are you going to believe an old man who is telling you a story while trying to distance himself from something he is ashamed of?"

That depends on what he says and how he says it.

"You want to stand next to someone while they tell you what it was like to take the life from another person?
What would you say next?
Cool?
Give him a speech why it was wrong?
What do you say to someone who did what they did? "

Never. And I wouldn't ask that. I wouldn't say much of anything TO him. I'd treat him like a witness on a witness stand. I'd ask him questions, although one of those questions might be 'why'?'

"Besides to say very bad things- I don't know why you need to get THAT CLOSE and personal to Murderers ????"

Diane Sawyer, Tom Snyder....they did (unless you are in the Charlie's innocent camp). My take is Clem wanted to be 'close' to Manson. What does he know? What did he hear?

When I was in law school a classmate used to post- back then as in pin to a bulletin board weird semi-law related questions and people would wander past and jot down an answer. Since it is timely one time she posted "who in the Bible would you want to cross examine?' I answered 'Pontius Pilate'.

St Circumstance said...

lol You got me on the last one...

Fair enough :)

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

My question to both of you is why and then what?

Why ? Curiosity.
There are loads of people I would love to have asked certain questions. Many if not most of them are dead now. And funnily enough, the only people I ever bump into that might have been in the public eye are people I'm not particularly interested in. A couple of years ago as I drove through Soho, I saw Jimmy Page from Led Zeppelin. Had I not been driving up a one way street, with traffic behind me {I couldn't stop} I would have asked him for 3 minutes of his time {or offered him a lift !} and asked him a few questions about recording. I would've cracked a joke about Zep nicking Black peoples' music as persuasion that he owed me 3 minutes !
As for "then what ?" I'm one of those strange creatures that thinks that closure is overrated. So I can happily exist with a few answers, knowing that it makes no difference to where my life is going. It's almost art for arts sake.

Are you going to believe an old man who is telling you a story while trying to distance himself from something he is ashamed of?

I don't know. I do know that there are a whole load of things from the main protagonists that I simply do not believe ~ and there are also things that I do believe. I can't say what determines my response in a general way. It really is a case by case thing. Hear what is said and proceed from there.

More important. What if he was honest ?

I would hope he was honest ! I may not like what the honesty reveals but there'd be no point in hearing him out otherwise.

You want to stand next to someone while they tell you what it was like to take the life from another person?

Well, I've done that already. True, it wasn't murder, it was war but it was no less comfortable. In any case, "What was it like to kill Shorty ?" wouldn't be one of my questions.

What would you say next?

For me, the beauty of conversation is that they are unpredictable. Or at least, the ones I get into are. I never know where they are going. Where they start is rarely where they end up. I can sometimes think fast on my feet. I used to do interviews with kids aged anywhere from 7 to 15 for a magazine we used to put out at an adventure playground I used to work at. Last year I was looking at them. I hadn't seen them in 20+ years. I thought they were good. I was certainly able to react at the drop of a hat because you never knew what someone was going to say. I'd find something to respond to Clem with !

What do you say to someone who did what they did?

Well, I don't think I'd take the view that they needed to be told off or were beyond the pale of human understanding or discourse. Much of what I'd say would be dependent on what they said.

I don't know why you need to get THAT CLOSE and personal to Murderers ????

Because they're still people. People that did horrific wrongs nearly half a century ago but have moved away from being those people and well away from the circumstances that fostered those events. People that have time and again spoken of their remorse. And even in the case of Charlie who doesn't think he has anything to be remorseful about, George got pretty close to him at one point over many years and lived to tell the tale !
It's not about need. It's about curiosity. I'd ask Prez Trump and former POTUS Obama, Bush{x2} and Clinton all kinds of questions if I saw them at the airport or in the loo. I'd ask Mike Tyson a thing or two if I saw him changing a tyre by the side of the road.....

grimtraveller said...

David said...

who in the Bible would you want to cross examine?

There are so many but top of my list would be the 12 apostles. 11 of them, I'd start by asking if what they see as today's church is recognizable from what Christ told them to start off. Then I'd have a whole series of questions for Judas ! And I'd love to ask Simon the Zealot about his relationship with Levi the tax collector but that is a whole other ball game.....

If you think about it he is in a fairly unique position of being able to utterly discredit Kasabian or completely corroborate her story

This alone would put Clem in a class of his own. Then there's details of Tex's involvement in the Shorty killing that would be interesting to broach. Questions about Charlie's violence towards the women would be a good one.....the list isn't endless but it would kind of long.

David said...

Grim,

You only get to pick one, not 1. ;-)

David said...

Should have been 11

Gloopine said...

I think clem is the best musician of the three... Manson and Bobby. I have heard that Brooks Poston is very talented also but have not listened to any of his playing. Bobby seems to always come across as an arrogant prick who is way to full of himself and his artistic talents. Manson comes across as totally insecure of his pedestrian musical talents. Just listen to the aborted session when Dennis Wilson was recording him. "Come on man just blow your soul" Charlie had nothing. There is footage of Bobby and Clem playing in some prison band somewhere doing a cover of Simple Man and Clem is clearly the more accomplished guitarist. Bobby is playing a double neck guitar and just hamming it up while Clem is laying down some sweet riffs. It was all about Bobby. Totally inflated ego. Clem comes across as a humble dude trying to make music. Maybe he has true remorse and maybe that is why he is a free man today.

David said...

Gloopine said:

"Just listen to the aborted session when Dennis Wilson was recording him. "Come on man just blow your soul" Charlie had nothing."


Where do I find that? Thanks.

Unknown said...

Really? But you come to a Manson blog???

Robert C said...

As a (bad) musician myself, I've always had a sense that Clem was a *natural* meaning he's musically gifted. In the provided clip there were some 'tells' of that too. Most of us need training -- so did, from what I could tell, Manson, Beausoleil, Poston and Watkins.

St Circumstance said...

I have seen pics of Clem playing with the likes of Steve Miller and Bobby Weir. I was shocked but it's true. He can play...

Brooks and Paul did all a lot of the music in Mr .H documentary. They were pretty good too I thought.

Young Girl is a hauntingly good tune in my estimation.

Gloopine said...

Hi David, you can hear it in the "Cease To Exist" documentary by Ryan Okseberg. And St. I agree. Just heard Young Girl and it is good.

Gloopine said...

That doc is readily available on you tube. Some good stuff in there.

St Circumstance said...

Thanks Gloop :)

I also believe I recall that Clem may have played on Bobby' prison album?

I am away and can't look it up but I could swear I read they at least played together at one time in jail on some project or behind bars concert.

Clem was said the be able to pick up music simply by watching and imitating. He must have had a natural talent. He has been in at least one band since he got out that tours nationally and had a following.

Oh what might have been. So I guess even in his case - in a way- he still pays...

Jenn said...

Robert C wrote:

"As an aside, looks like an interesting guitar. Can't see well but maybe a Fender Squier (short neck) that's been upgraded to a Stratocaster ?"

Hi Robert. It's not a Fender at all. I can't zoom in close enough to the headstock to tell what Strat look-a-like it is, but it's not Fender; not even a customized one. Too much different about it. Could be Yamaha, G&L, Edwards, etc. or even "home brewed." Some of the look-a-likes are as good or better than the Fender, in some people's opinion.

St Circumstance said...

Damn Jenn you know much about guitars lol

I remember from a couple of other posts you know a lot about the LA rock scene too.

Gotta love a girl who know her Rock and Roll :)

I wonder what your thoughts are about the level of Clem's musical talent? You have heard a lot of guitarists it appears.

Jenn said...

Ha! Thanks, Saint. It's part of my profession. I'm a conductor and symphonic trombonist by trade, and I also gig as a solo acoustic finger style guitarist, and I dabble in electric guitar, something that I've come to relatively late in life.

About Clem's ability.... From what I've seen and heard, he's "OK". I don't mean to be cruel (like he was), but there are hundreds of players in LA alone who play better. He appears to be at a decent hobbiest level. Certainly not good enough to make a full-time living doing it. Again, I don't mean this as an insult. I'm ALL for everyone playing, enriching their lives, having fun, maybe picking up a few bucks here and there if they want to. I'm just being real!

Best wishes...

Gloopine said...

Jenn that seems to me to be a pretty accurate assessment. There can be a fine line between serious hobbyist and professional. On the prison concert with Bobby his fills are very tasteful as well as the keyboard work. Wish I could remember where I saw it. Bobby's leads are overwrought imho.

St Circumstance said...

Thanks Jenn. I appreciate it. You would certainly know better than I.

:)

Jenn said...

The music business is more crazy than ever. Great, great players piece together a living and don't get rich. Now, you can be a non-great player and make it big if you're a great singer, have the right look, and are part of a famous act. But the best musicians are not getting rich as players. I study with a guy who has Grammy awards both as a soloist and as being the lead guitarist in a VERY famous band in the late 70s/early 80s, fronted by the person who has, many say, made the most money in the history of the business. You've all heard him play either in that band, or later (including currently) as a movie/tv/recordings studio player. He's an incredible player. He's doing fine and is very busy, but is not wealthy and is not a household name. To make it as a full-time player with some teaching on the side is incredibly tough. The business in studios is a fraction of what it was in the Wrecking Crew days, thanks to synths, overseas (where it's cheaper) production, etc. And, artists make a fraction of what they used to from recordings, due to streaming and downloading, both legal and otherwise. It is indeed tough out there.

grimtraveller said...

A kid I used to know wore a T shirt that said "Life's a bitch ~ and then you die !"
And she was only 12.
She wasn't a musician though.....

Coyote said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
brownrice said...

Someone once described the music biz to me as being the "Cinderella of all professions"...
i.e. it all looks very glamorous until about midnight... when the house lights go up, the crowd goes home & you suddenly realise the limo they promised you is actually a pumpkin.

Coyote said...

To those asking about the guitar- I was there the night in question and it is a fender. You can also see it clearly in this older photo. https://68.media.tumblr.com/66b7e3d9079fd550e98ef31036b1dd2b/tumblr_mq5r7bydly1qb2ssvo1_400.jpg

Jenn said...

Ah! I stand corrected, thanks! I've never seen one with a blue headstock. He has also changed out the tuning pegs, the pickups, and the volume and tone knobs. Thanks, Coyote!

HellzBellz said...

@ Gloopine, You can see the Prison play here ;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7AEBzECJcM

HellzBellz said...

A bit Off-Topic maybe....Is it my European Internet Conection , or am I not the only one who is missing the previous post about Manson 1950/1960 buzzy times ?? is it removed ?? if Yeah....Why is that ??

Mr. Humphrat said...

Jenn I believe you would know by your credentials that Clem is just "ok" as a player, but I do know that he was playing in a band when he was outed a few years ago that a co-worker of mine from way back was also in who is a very respected musician in blues. But of course the fact that he was a co-worker of mine confirms what you say about making a living in music. Clem had to have a pretty decent level of musicianship to be in that band is my point.

Gloopine said...

Thanks hellzbellz. And thanks to Autumn for this post.

Robert C said...

Coyote said: **To those asking about the guitar- I was there the night in question and it is a fender. You can also see it clearly in this older photo. https://68.media.tumblr.com/66b7e3d9079fd550e98ef31036b1dd2b/tumblr_mq5r7bydly1qb2ssvo1_400.jpg**

Thanks for that Coyote. I feel better about my guess ;-)

Mr. Humphrat said: ** Clem had to have a pretty decent level of musicianship to be in that band is my point. **

That's my take on it all too. One has to be very good to keep playing in bands and have the right connections.

Mr. Humphrat said...

I try to think about his playing I've seen in videos and I'm not sure I can think of an example that would make me think he was super talented. Maybe someone can refresh my memory. I can definitely believe there would be hundreds better than him in L.A. and the Bay Area, but there are also just a lot of great musicians out there.

DebS said...

HellzBellz it's not your connection. We took the post down, we can't say why at this time. Consider it an Easter mystery!

grimtraveller said...

HellzBellz said...

am I not the only one who is missing the previous post about Manson 1950/1960 ?? is it removed ?

For the last few days, I've been wringing my head trying to work out which post had disappeared ! I thought dementia was setting in at too young an age !!

Mr. Humphrat said...

I can definitely believe there would be hundreds better than him in L.A.

For me great musicianship has never been a requirement for great music. Certainly not since the advent of multitracking.

Gloopine said...

Thanks hellzbellz. And thanks to Autumn for this post.

Gloopine said...

Grim, got to take issue with you on that one. If it is good it is good. No hiding behind multi-tracking.

Robert C said...

**Jenn said: Ah! I stand corrected, thanks! I've never seen one with a blue headstock. He has also changed out the tuning pegs, the pickups, and the volume and tone knobs. Thanks, Coyote!**

My Fender is identical to Clem's in every detail I can see, including knob and pick-up positioning, except mine is black. I'm wondering if they were built by the same person since mine is a custom ?

Hey maybe I got Clem living in the 'hood. If so I could always use guitar lessons with a chance to ask a lot of questions ;-)

StillGrooving said...

who in the Bible would you want to cross examine?

I would pick Mother Mary, and I would ask her if she he really conceived Jesus without sperm.

HellzBellz said...

@StillGrooving... Come on,.. I mean, Youre not questioning the story, are you ??

HellzBellz said...

@ Grimm and Gloopine: MultiTracking does not make a tune sounds ,Good, per definition.If you multi-Track a line wich is outa tune or just sounds Bad, you got it MULTI-Outa Tune, or MULTI-Bad !! What I am saying here is that you ALWAYS need a Good tune/line/base to MultyTrack. MultyTracking is okay,i.e. for Chorus-lines recorded in seperate takes, in different octaves/higher/lower.Then play the tracks synchronised as a whole.Nowadays in the ,DiGi-World, its not nescesary anymore to do so. But I think the word Grimm was looking for is Auto-Tune.... Fiddeling with Pitch i.e. making the Vocalist sound ,In Tune, at the Higher registers. But also THEN you can hear this voice is without a soul..Flat everywhere,Emotionless,Unnatural and so on

grimtraveller said...

HellzBellz said...

I think the word Grimm was looking for is Auto-Tune....

I most certainly was not looking for auto tune. I detest auto tune, even the very notion of using such a £$£"*&^+=([]) fills me with emotions and thoughts I dare not subject the keyboard to.
Of course, I'm a complete contradiction here because I'll use every other effect and method going and I love artifice in music......Funny thing about that, when I've done recording, the one thing I'm very hot on is singers being in tune. Overdub, go line by line, record in different keys at different speeds etc, no problem with any of that. But Each pass has to be in tune.
The irony is though, that there have been some great songs over the last 20 years where auto tune was employed and many of the ones I like, I'm probably not even aware !

Gloopine said...

Grim, got to take issue with you on that one. If it is good it is good. No hiding behind multi-tracking.

Hmmmm. I think I know what you mean but what I meant was multitracking utterly changed both songwriting and the way artists visions were presented. Being able to take your time over a recording meant that all the ideas did not have to be present at the start of recording. Just as an example {there are literally thousands over the last 50 years} when the Beatles began "A day in the life" no one knew there would be all that orchestral stuff on it and even when it was finished, it was a while before the final piano chord was conceived. And two of the players on that piano chord {John & Ringo} weren't good piano players ~ an example of great music by players that weren't great musicians on the instrument they played.
One of the interesting things that came out of the CD revolution was the bonus track and quite often, artists would include the demo of a particular song so we could hear what the song idea was like in genesis. For me, most of the demos I've heard are pretty ropey in terms of playing but the greatness of the song remains. David Bowie for example wasn't a great musician but on demos for stuff like "Quicksand" an "Lady Stardust" you get a great piece of music and a tremendous song. But at the same time, they needed multitracking to elevate them to stratospheric status. For me the studio versions are nearly always better than the live ones.
Many great guitar solos were "put together" from several different attempts, similarly, some of the greatest musicians have released stuff that personally, I find totally boring and bland. It isn't necessary for great musicians to be present for great music to happen. None of the Pistols were great musicians but they knocked out some great music. Etc, etc...

ColScott said...

While it is nice and all to see this this is essentially a ten year old post that Bret did that I then expanded on that led to me getting a threatening letter from Clem's lawyer who worked out of a car.

Here is all that really matters- did Austin go up and say Hi Clem? Or say "Can you sign my playbill 'Scramblehead'?" Or anything close?

Gloopine said...

Hey Grimm going back a few posts I thought your analysis of bebop and Charlie Parker et al was right on. Just saying.

Terrapin said...

Going back a few topics... being musically proficient or technically gifted is the last thing the industry is about. To be successful you just need to play your instrument or sing in a cool way. Clem seems to do that well enough to (seemingly) make a living out of it. Like someone said before he's played with some 'name' artists and i really enjoy his playing on the Mitch Woods dvd. I actually sometimes forget who it is i'm watching

Jenn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jenn said...

Robert C wrote:

"My Fender is identical to Clem's in every detail I can see, including knob and pick-up positioning, except mine is black. I'm wondering if they were built by the same person since mine is a custom ?"

Yours have those non- standard knobs (not the positioning) and PUs (also not the positioning)? Again, I'm no electric expert, and when I do play electric, I'm a Tele and Country Gent person. :-)

Robert C said...

** Jenn said: " Yours have those non- standard knobs (not the positioning) and PUs (also not the positioning)? " **

I really don't understand how you can see well enough from the pics and vid to establish whether or not it has "non-standard" knobs and pickups ? All I can tell is mine looks identical externally to his in all detail I can view. But I know we both have Fender Stratocasters, mine and likely his custom, with sufficient evidence to suggest they are at or virtually identical. Yet I'm more of an acoustic (Gibson, Martin) and electric acoustic (Godin) string player myself :-)

Matt said...

Jenn is an accomplished musician. She has an eye that most others don't. It's like me picking up on the spin on a curveball right out of the pitcher's hand, I guess.


St Circumstance said...

the band Clem was playing with when Brett posted his info was fairly well known.

I read at the time a couple of people left over Clem's addition. I don't know if that is true.

I wonder what or if any pressure a decision like that causes the other guys in the band? Having him in that band was a career killer. You can only get so big before someone starts to dig into your people. When the world finds out your guitarist is a Manson family member....

I dont know lol. Is all publicity always good publicity ?

Matt said...

Not if you are United Airlines...


St Circumstance said...

Lol. Good point

Robert C said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

When the world finds out your guitarist is a Manson family member....
Is all publicity always good publicity ?


That depends on whether the music is any good or popular with the right crowd.

Emily P Strange said...

I always find it hard to believe that Clem isn't in prison. During my brief time with the family (Sept 1970 til a bit after the trial ended) Clem scared the bejeezus out of me. Him and Bruce. One early morning when Clem was with a few of us up at one of the hidy places in the mountains - an old very rundown resort - Clem woke me and had me go with him to bury a machete that was wrapped in a gunny sack out in the woods. I didn't ask anything about it (and really didn't want to know).

And yes, years later I tried to Call Bugliosi's office but found out he's retired so I spoke with -- was his name Stephen something? -- who had taken over the case. I told him and his response was to tell me that none of the murders that the family was either convicted of or were suspects in had a machete used. So who knows? It could have just been some sort of test for me to see how I would react.

Anyway - yeah. If I ran into Clem, I would turn around and head the other direction. Most of the other members I can see as having gotten their heads on straight after getting away and years passing. Not Clem. I just can't see it.

(Emily is a pseudonym. I am "Jenny")

Matt said...

I'm Santa Claus. Pleased to make your acquaintance.


Terrapin said...

I'm the Easter Bunny... don't steal my spotlight Santa :)

Robert C said...

I buy it !!!

Mr. Humphrat said...

Thanks for sharing your experience with us Emily. I would think everyone here would be thrilled to read whatever stories you have from that time and afterward.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Wait is this someone already known as a fibber?

David said...

Someone else would have to answer that Mr. Humphrat but I think Detective Deemer would expect "Jenny" to be "Jennie".

Panamint Patty said...

Is she the same nut that's commented on Patty's onjya posts?

grimtraveller said...

Emily P Strange said...

Anyway - yeah. If I ran into Clem, I would turn around and head the other direction. Most of the other members I can see as having gotten their heads on straight after getting away and years passing. Not Clem. I just can't see it

If you were genuinely someone that had some "brief time with the family (Sept 1970 til a bit after the trial ended)" I'd actually have less respect for your opinion than if you were a fake because you'd be condemning a 17 year old to the limits of your 47 year old opinion without any possibility that that creepy 17 year old might have gone through changes. Are you exactly as you were in the period "Sept 1970 til a bit after the trial ended ?"

Matt said...

David said...

Someone else would have to answer that Mr. Humphrat but I think Detective Deemer would expect "Jenny" to be "Jennie".


Bwahahahaha! Thank you for the laugh, David.


grimtraveller said...

HellzBellz said...

MultiTracking does not make a tune sound ,Good, per definition

Yes and no. What it does is give you control of how something turns out. You can take your time putting a song together and you don't have to get the entire band, orchestra and vocalist[s] all in the same room at the same time and start over if everyone puts in a flawless performance but the vocalist gets a word wrong or the bass player drops a bum note. In a live gig, it doesn't matter because by the time you get to the next verse, you've forgotten the mistake of the previous one if you ever noticed it at all. You can record in different studios in different parts of the world or even have people upload their contributions to you from anywhere they are to anywhere you happen to be.
Can you imagine "Bohemian Rhapsody" without multitracking ? No, nor could Queen which is why when they tried to play it live, they had to play the record for the middle section. There are lots of songs that can not exist without multitracking and that helps determine how good the song actually is to the end listener.

DebS said...

Clem may have had the only card that could be played for leniency and that is why Bobby and particularly Bruce still sit in prison
+
St Circumstance said...

Clem is such an amazing story to me. The one everyone thought was so crazy...

Bobby takes the credit for Clem. He said "They convicted him and never found the corpus delicti. I talked to him about it and I said, "Man" ~you know, he's been denying it for years and years, that he had anything to do with it.~ I said, "Man, that's not going to do you any good, you know. You have got people saying that you tortured somebody," and he didn't. And that Shorty Shea had been beheaded, which he hadn't been. I said, "Man, you can carry that and be the tough guy all you want for the next 20 years in prison. Big deal." I said, "If you want to prove that you didn't cut the guy's head off, tell them where the body is. So he did.
He got in touch with the DA through the authorities here. And when he came up, Burton Katz and one of his associates came up here to interview this inmate
."

I think the times had as much to do with it as anything. It was, after all, 8 years between the time Clem showed them where the body was and his actual parole. And I also think his age at the time of the murder and the Judge's words when overruling the jury's death decision, plus some truly lucid, remorseful parole hearings did him good. He also had the advantage of being consistent, not changing his story and seeing that he'd been duped, somewhat.


St Circumstance said...

Please explain to me - if you can/want how a middle aged man like Clem could be considered less a threat back then - much closer to the crimes and still at a full strength age.... than Susan Atkins was as a crippled and dying old lady? Or Lulu would be now??

Under any circumstances. It just doesn't make any sense. He had none of the prison accomplishments the girls do. He did not even a fraction of the time. You can't make any case for his release that shouldn't be able to work for a couple of the others...

Yet he is free as a bird and living a fairly nice life doing what he loves.

Might be a song in there somewhere Clem

:)

Matt said...

No, Patty. Different person.


St Circumstance said...

Sorry. My point Grim Sir ( which I forgot to state lol)

Is that it has to be the Shorty revelation. It's the only thing that separates him from rest. He cooperated when it still mattered.

This is also why I feel hesitation there are other murders those in jail know about. At some point if they thought it would help- wouldn't we know?

David said...

Saint,

Unless they committed them or were 'co-conspirators'.

But I agree with you. I see the 'Shorty Revelation' sort of in the reverse. I'm not sure it showed 'remorse, responsibility, etc.' but I do think not telling the authorities where he was when they clearly knew weighed(s) in keeping them in jail.

St Circumstance said...

Clem is just such a strange story to me I guess. I just think it's amazing the one that even the Family thought was the nut - turned out to be (maybe) the most normal and productive of any of the Family members we are still aware of.

I am aware there could be one or two we lost track of who are doing great. I hope Ruth and Diane are personally.

Robert C said...

First and foremost 'Clem' seems have been successful in keeping himself out of prison since release right up into appreciable old age which is way more than can be said for Manson who was a master recidivist and kept getting caught.

Apparently Clem has managed to sustain some semblance of self control, and even though there are apparently zillions of outstanding musicians wandering around LA and elsewhere looking for their big break it seems he's still picking and strumming in some musical group.

Not that easy not only because of the competition but when he does get outed he may have to go out and find another group to blend into.

I have a feeling guitar picking is not his day job, and that he has 'underground' connections.

Just a loose theory ....

Matt said...

Robert, Grogan's wife makes a pretty decent income. He doesn't need to make it rain playing the guitar to pay the bills.


ColScott said...

Again I ask, what is the point of this thread? I bumped into a Manson killer and took a secret snap?

This is something from out of the evil liz days. DO BETTER!

St Circumstance said...

Col with all due respect Sir..

Learning the False identity of Steve Grogan and his current situation and still pictures back then...

And seeing what he looks like last week and watching live video of him playing guitar...

May not have the same initial value, but are nonetheless equally interesting to some people. No??


P.S. I used to write lizard stuff lol You hated it that much???

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

Again I ask, what is the point of this thread? I bumped into a Manson killer and took a secret snap?

Yeah, pretty much.
To you, it's old hat and understandably so because you've been there and done that a decade ago.
That was then but this is now.
You still operate under the delusion that there's a motive for these murders that's been floating in the ether since 1969 that we are in the dark about and that somehow, we on the internet can appropriate it.
Bon chance, mon ami.
But there are some of us that like to discuss a multiplicity of aspects of the case ranging from the spurious and irrelevant to the interesting and important. Those that don't like to really don't have to. Sitting across the way from Steve Grogan in April 2017 is of interest to a site that has spent years discussing a case he played a part in. Minor interest perhaps, but interest nevertheless. How can it not be ?

Robert C said...

'Clem' seems have been successful in keeping himself out of prison since release right up into appreciable old age which is way more than can be said for Manson who was a master recidivist and kept getting caught

A really important point. One of Shreck's major themes is that Charlie was set up for a life in crime due to his family background and that he basically had little choice. But Clem came out of jail with far more of a millstone round his neck than Charlie ever did and has obviously worked at staying straight and being productive, despite having quit school before his time.
I don't think Charlie's background and the things that happened to him in his younger days should be dismissed, they obviously played a large part in shaping him and there are responsible people down the line that I suspect have never accepted the horrific part they played in how he eventually turned out. But choice also counterbalances circumstance ~ for those that allow it.

joseph esposito said...

Brilliant find! I'm Glad that Steve is a good musician and making a living playing lounge music. But I'm also a little disappointed that he's not doing anything esoteric or psychedelic...which he is also capable of. I guess age makes us more mellow, hope he still listens to the family jams and realizes that he was innovative in his crazy days. It seems like he wants to let people know he likes Black people, also disappointing, since the Black Muslims 'are' rising up.

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

Is that it has to be the Shorty revelation. It's the only thing that separates him from rest. He cooperated when it still mattered

But did it matter ? He'd already been convicted of the murder as had Charlie and Bruce and were any of them between '71 and '77 appealing on the grounds that Shorty was still alive ? So what was the co~operation ? If what Bobby said in his '78 parole hearing was true {and it was packed with lies in other places, lies that have killed his credibility since} Clem had been denying it for years. But so what ? He'd been convicted of it. A bit like Charlie actually.
I'm not saying it played no part at all, just that it was in combination with other things.
Funny thing is, Clem's revelations left LE with egg on their faces because really, they'd been the main progenitors of the "Shorty was beheaded and cut in 9 pieces" after DeCarlo's Nov '69 interview. But that doesn't seem to have been mentioned anywhere....

This is also why I feel hesitation there are other murders those in jail know about. At some point if they thought it would help- wouldn't we know?

Not if the person with the info was involved !

David said...

I'm not sure it showed 'remorse, responsibility, etc.'

I think Grogan was remorseful. All of Charlie's jailed cohorts {except Tex who joined in at the 4th stage} went through exactly the same thing. Initial Charlie protection and parroting. Followed by the realization that they'd been duped. Followed by internal anger at that duping. Followed by regret that they'd be in jail for a long time if not life which led to regret at what they'd done which led to telling what had happened but from a point of view that they'd learned through the various strands of rehabilitation {which involved a reconnection of sorts with their pre~ Charlie upbringing} rather than one they'd had in '69 followed by complete denouncement of Charles Manson and the realization that they were caught in that catch 22 of denounce Manson = "we're not taking responsibility" but don't denounce Manson = still in his thought.


but I do think not telling the authorities where he was when they clearly knew weighed(s) in keeping them in jail

But did they know where he was ? The whole point of Clem being the one that buried the body was that no one else knew and the "Shorty beheaded 9 piece" story was believed by most of the Family, kind of the way the Lotsapoppa one was.

Jenn said...

Robert wrote:

"Apparently Clem has managed to sustain some semblance of self control, and even though there are apparently zillions of outstanding musicians wandering around LA and elsewhere looking for their big break it seems he's still picking and strumming in some musical group."

Hey there Robert,
I just want to be clear about what I wrote about his guitar ability. I think that it's totally cool that he is playing in a band. Super great. Everyone who can do so should do so if they want to. I was just pointing out that one doesn't have to be all that good to do it at the level that he is doing it. I was just seeing people overstate his ability. He was playing at a vegan restaurant. It well could have been for $20 each and the tip jar. That's the reality of playing in a restaurant, especially in the daytime. Just being real. :-)

grimtraveller said...

joseph esposito said...

It seems like he wants to let people know he likes Black people, also disappointing, since the Black Muslims 'are' rising up

Why would it be disappointing that he likes Black people and wants people to know this ?

But I'm also a little disappointed that he's not doing anything esoteric or psychedelic...

Perhaps he hates psychedelic rock and his head ceased to be stuck in the mid to late 60s as early as.....the 70s !

joseph esposito said...

Just my attempt at an amusing anecdote Grim, as far as psychedelic music, I still think it's much better than all the affirmative action music of today. That'd be the auto tune, pitch correction & multi tracking you mentioned not just rap music, but any number of singers who sound like they're auditioning for a talent show, Family Jams is innovative & hauntingly beautiful as compared to the over processed music of today.

David said...

Grim said:

"Perhaps he hates psychedelic rock and his head ceased to be stuck in the mid to late 60s as early as.....the 70s !"

Well, his Facebook page says he likes Led Zeppelin and Rihanna, the Soldiers and AC/DC (quite a combo) and his favorite movie is Resident Evil.

David said...

Grim said:

"I think Grogan was remorseful."

Not my point. My point was NOT telling the authorities where Shorty was certainly would have had the opposite effect- kept him in jail and, of course, since they were alleged to have dismembered him (untrue) the authorities don't/didn't know the rest were not in on the burial and likely think they still were- see, Davis' latest parole hearing and the beheading issue per the governor.

And Grim you have to denounce Manson to get out. IMO none have them have told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in those hearings although I acknowledge their exaggerations (for Manson)- from Atkins to the Shorty crew- have not done them any favors.

Shorty's pistols said...

What difference did Clem's story make? They already had the conviction so what did they care about finding the body? Having the corpus was HUGE. Very few murder convictions were made in those days without a body. LE was always worried in the back of their minds that a drifter like Shorty would float back into the picture alive and queer things for everybody. Clem's testimony got all kinds of people off the hook.

Clem had juice in his case. Burton Katz, the judge became an advocate for Scramblehead. Clem's brother was in the California State Police and also supported his brother with the Parole board. Clem did make a cogent appeal to the board which seemed sincere with regard to remorse. Each factor added up and resulted in Grogan's parole. Bobby claims credit for advising Clem how to get out? Bobby probably should have asked SG for advice. Something along the line of "Quit being such a cocky, snotty,lying bullshit artist and maybe you'll get cut loose, BAHBBY", would have been apt advice for BB.

Robert C said...

** Jenn said: Hey there Robert, I just want to be clear about what I wrote about his guitar ability .... That's the reality of playing in a restaurant, especially in the daytime. Just being real. :-) **

All cool, Jenn. I fully understand and agree. I suspected it wasn't his sole source of support and then Matt kindly clarified that.

My main point was it's been noted since Spahn days in various sources, mostly in brief, that he was guitar-capable and a quick study. Usually an indication of natural talent. Then listening to that quick vid and watching his hand/finger moves -- looks quite comfortable on the fret board. But not suggesting he's at the pinnacle of that in comparison to others -- I have no way of knowing.

Good friend of mine, outstanding guitarist, returned from LA after trying to break into the music scene saying metaphorically every corner had an outstanding guitarist. That was nearly forty years ago. Pretty much what you're saying. Cheers.

grimtraveller said...

joseph esposito said...

as far as psychedelic music, I still think it's much better than all the affirmative action music of today. That'd be the auto tune, pitch correction & multi tracking

Multitracking is the way records/CDs etc have been made since the late 50s although Les Paul pioneered it as far back as the 40s in his recordings with Mary Ford.

David said...

Not my point

I understood that. Your point was clear. I was just chucking in my own observation that I thought he was remorseful....especially after he got well stabbed up in prison.

you have to denounce Manson to get out

It continually strikes me as catch 22. Whenever any of them denounce him, it seems to be what the parole board are looking for. But in so doing, either the boards that have rejected or the guv'nor point to them not taking responsibility because of their trying to explain Manson's role. It's a catch 22 that currently appears to be hamstringing them where the Guv is concerned. Because if any of them rolled back on the denouncement, all he has to say is that they haven't been honest for years, why trust them now ?

IMO none have them have told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth

I don't think any of them can actually remember "nothing but the truth !"

Shorty's pistols said...

Very few murder convictions were made in those days without a body

Perhaps. But this one was.
It's still surprising that they went ahead without eye witnesses. Such was the power of the name of Manson.

LE was always worried in the back of their minds that a drifter like Shorty would float back into the picture alive and queer things for everybody

Yet they went ahead and prosecuted, convicted and had the guy sentenced to death.
That's worrying !
Well, perhaps not. It wasn't exactly yesterday.

starviego said...

grimtraveller said...
It continually strikes me as catch 22. Whenever any of them denounce him, it seems to be what the parole board are looking for. But in so doing, either the boards that have rejected or the guv'nor point to them not taking responsibility because of their trying to explain Manson's role. It's a catch 22 that currently appears to be hamstringing them where the Guv is concerned. Because if any of them rolled back on the denouncement, all he has to say is that they haven't been honest for years, why trust them now?


The lawyer for Krenwinkel at her July 17, 1978 Parole Hearing said it best:

MR. S. DANA GILBERT, Attorney for Krenny: This, again, goes to my second point. And that is, the State in the form of the prosecution will not let the people forget that they were part of the Manson family. And it doesn’t matter if you try to break away. You will not be allowed, not by Manson, but by the State, by Chief Davis, by the District Attorney’s office, you will not be allowed to forget that you were part of the Manson family. And everything you do is because you’re a part of the Manson family. .... Don’t you think we’ve had enough of this? It’s been almost eight years now.

St Circumstance said...

Keenly stays in clink she was a vicious murderer. She could a member of the partridge family lol

blaming staying in jail after only 8 years on any type of association is a joke in her case.

You can say that about Bobby or Maybe even Lulu today. But not Pat back then. She was a cold blooded killer.

in my opinion.

St Circumstance said...

Kreny stays in clink.
Because she was a vicious murderer
She could have been a member of Partridge

lol. Don't want to delete my comment so let me try again to type on this phone lol

HellzBellz said...

@ Grimm... I know where you heading at. But if ALL the ,Galileos ,Fandangos, Figaroos , ThunderBolds&Lightnings ,are recorded outa tune, combined not in harmony....False... You can Multitrack whatever you want. It still does not sound Good. In fact its ,,Multy-False,, (lol) What I try to say is,MultyTrack cant make a musician.

ColScott said...

Grimmy


I think you MADE my point. Seeing Clem /Adam Gabriel eating Ramen next to you IS cool. Doing nothing about it, asking him no questions is weak sauce.

And I cannot go back and read the posts but the reality is that BOBBY encouraged Clem to offer the location up for CLEMency. The man was still worried that JUST MAYBE Shorty was still alive. Bobby and Clem were in the same prison

St Circumstance said...

Same band for awhile too ;)

grimtraveller said...

HellzBellz said...

But if ALL the ,Galileos ,Fandangos, Figaroos , ThunderBolds&Lightnings ,are recorded outa tune, combined not in harmony....False... You can Multitrack whatever you want

Agreed. But I wasn't talking about putting together lousy, out of tune tracks. If the tracks, regardless of the voice or instrument are in time and in tune, it doesn't need a great musician to make great music. There's zillions of songs out there that show that.

MultyTrack cant make a musician

I totally agree with you. But it can make a shitty musician or an inadequate musician sound like a good or competent one. Example; someone who can't play piano fluently but can build up the tracks bit by bit, even note by note can, when putting the whole lot together, sound masterful. The end listener doesn't care. All they hear is piano in a song that they like and they may even particularly dig the piano part. That it was 'put together' is neither here nor there at the end of the day.

ColScott said...

Grimmy
I think you MADE my point


I wasn't disagreeing with you.

Seeing Clem /Adam Gabriel eating Ramen next to you IS cool. Doing nothing about it, asking him no questions is weak sauce

I can understand Autumn not badgering Grogan with a series of questions because that may be counterproductive in his life right there and then but paradoxically, I can't say I would not have tried to slip in a question or ten. I guess it's a matter of how one begins one's angle of descent.

BOBBY encouraged Clem to offer the location up for CLEMency

Interesting point. In the hearing where Bobby describes his role in Clem's situation, he should have taken his own advice. He lied quite freely. One only has to compare the 1978 hearing to all the ones that came from 2003 onwards to see this.

The man was still worried that JUST MAYBE Shorty was still alive

I find it an odd reaction that confirmation of Shorty's death should be clemency for one of his murderers. That said, at the time, I think the emotional reactions were weighted towards the actual TLB killings and the way the defendants had behaved during the trial. Bobby screwed himself with his attitude and there was that lingering feeling that Bruce wasn't owning up to full involvement, something the Guv'nor still holds against him.

joseph esposito said...

@David how can I find Clems FB page? What do I google?

Donald Burkhardt said...

Sorry to jump in so late in the thread, but I think people are confusing "multi-tracking" vs. "over-dubs". Multi-track/Multi-tracking simply means the number of tracks or channels available on the recording device. Most common in the early days of rock'n'roll was a 2-track mono machine- the band would record the instruments first on track one, and THEN overdub the vocals and often the instrumental solo on to track 2.The 2 tracks would be mixed into a monophonic signal, which meant no matter if your record player had only 1 or 2 speakers, it would sound the same.
Later when "stereo" became the norm, many record companies mastered the albums using the studio tape "as is"- THAT is why on early stereo releases of The Beatles you hear all the instruments on the left hand side and just the vocals on the right hand side. Stereo at the time was almost a novelty and both John Lennon and George Harrison said that the band would leave the stereo mixing to George Martin until the band became interested in the stereo imaging during the Revolver/Sgt. Pepper sessions.
When The Beatles started using a 4-track recorder in late 1963, they would still use tracks 1 & 2 as before, but would often use track 3 for OVERDUBBING another lead vocal and track 4 to overdub everything from handclaps to "edit pieces"-once again if you listen to their vocals from the "Beatlemania" years 1963-1965" there are numerous examples of them being slightly off.
One of the E.M.I./Abbey Road staff eventually figured out a way to "send out" the signal from track 2 and put it directly(but with a slight delay) onto track 3. This process became known as "Automatic Double Tracking" or "ADT".
I would go on, but if you are a home musician and own any "modern" recording device, this should all be basic knowledge.
While I now use digital "multi-track" work stations, I still have my trusty dusty pair of Reel to Reel recorders. Every now and then I'll "go old school" and use them to record by "bouncing" the music from the yard sale mono machine to the stereo Teac, which is usually good for 4, maybe 5 overdubs before it gets to "muddy"

Donald Burkhardt said...

As a extra thought on the subject, as the studios progressed to 8, 16, 32, etc.,track machines they were able to assign each instrument/vocal it's own track, allowing better separation thus making the mix cleaner.
The tapes were still subject to aging and the sound "bleeding" over to other tracks. That is why some of the initial John Lennon and Queen cds from the 1980's sound like crap and had to be re-mixed and cleaned up.
Rumor has it, Frank Zappa's master tapes were in such bad shape when he jumped on the cd bandwagon that he had to go back and re-record (or, overdub) a lot of parts where the tapes were damaged.

grimtraveller said...

Donald Burkhardt said...

Sorry to jump in so late in the thread, but I think people are confusing "multi-tracking" vs. "over-dubs"

Part of the thrust of my point about good musicians not being a necessary for good music, especially since the advent of multitracking very much included overdubbing. The reality of a song like "Bohemian Rhapsody" is that it was performed with just 4 people. So there was more overdubbing done than the sum of the original basic tracks. Interestingly, the song as we know it isn't how it was originally recorded. They kept adding to it as Freddie Mercury wrote more parts, inspired by what was already recorded. Multitracking {via overdubbing} makes that song. Even if they had a 121 piece choir, full band and tympani players it wouldn't have sounded as it did if only recorded on 2 track.
But as ever, we digress from the topic at hand ~ Steve Grogan's eating habits ! ☺

Coyote said...

Sorry brother. I ran into Clem on my birthday, got excited and took some photos. I sent them to the blog because I wanted to share with someone. Saying I am "weak sauce" because I decided to leave the guy alone and not screw up his gig is not cool. I'm not a Manson blogger... I never claimed to be. Next time I run into something interesting I'll keep it to myself. Peace.

David said...

No Coyote. Next time ignore the Col. and take heart in knowing the rest of us didn't comment like that.

Peace- back

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

"Thanks for coming out tonight, glad to see your pretty faces. We're just going to lean back now and groove one on out ..... hope you sail along with us. This one is for ol' Shorty ....."

David said...

clap-clap-clap

grimtraveller said...

Coyote said...

I'm not a Manson blogger... I never claimed to be. Next time I run into something interesting I'll keep it to myself

On the other hand, we humans being what we are, sharing an opinion or photo or story or meeting or whatever else is bound to invite a variety of comments and as people think differently.......

St Circumstance said...

Kreny stays in clink.
Because she was a vicious murderer


The key word being "was."

Coyote said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
stoner van houten said...

awesome !!