Monday, July 24, 2017

Did Vincent Bugliosi Diss Stephen Kay In Helter Skelter?

The animosity between Manson prosecutors Vincent Bugliosi and Stephen Kay is well known. Kay resented Bugliosi taking the entire credit for convictions in a case in which he felt he was an active co-prosecutor, and later Bugliosi couldn’t stand Key’s embarrassing grandstanding at “Manson Family” parole hearings. But did this mutual animosity result in an immature diss on the part of Bugliosi? Did Bugliosi so resent sharing the “I got Manson!” scalp with anybody that he intentionally minimized the contributions of his fellow-prosecutors (as he did the numerous times when he pointed out that his investigative skills had single-handedly saved the case from the incompetent Keystone Cops of LAPD)? And did he even resort to childishness?

That Bugliosi was disdainful of Kay as a co-prosecutor is evident in his initial mention of his fellow Deputy DA in Helter Skelter when he introduces Kay as a replacement for Aaron Stovitz, who was removed from the case for making inappropriate comments to the media:

“Since I had prepared the case and examined most of the witnesses, Aaron’s removal did not affect this portion of the trial…. Although two young deputy DAs, Donald Musich and Steven Kay, had been assigned to replace Aaron, neither was familiar enough with the case to participate in the trial.” (Helter Skelter, 25th Anniversary edition paperback, page 453)

“Neither was familiar enough with the case to participate in the trial.”  That characterization must have grated on Kay.

Later in the book Bugliosi alludes to Kay’s ineptness as an attorney when he refers to Kay irresponsibly commenting to the press about a statement Charles Manson allegedly made during the penalty phase of the trial about there being bloodletting should he receive a death sentence:

“Both the court clerk and Steve Kay overheard the remark. Kay intemperately rushed out of the courtroom and repeated it to the press.” (Helter Skelter, page 585)

As a result of Kay intemperance, the jury had to be sequestered for the remainder of the penalty phase so as not to be exposed to headlines such as “Manson Death Threat — Warns of Terror if Doomed to Die.”

Clearly, Bugliosi’s characterizations of Kay during the trial are less than flattering. But did Bugliosi go even further? Did he engage in some juvenile dissing to cause even more discomfort to his former partner in criminal prosecution? In looking closer at Bugliosi’s references in Helter Skelter to Kay I noticed something that made me wonder, namely that Bugliosi misrepresents the spelling of Kay’s first name throughout the book.

As a person who has had his surname reworked into nearly countless incorrect variations I’m well aware of the sensitivity of some persons that their names be rendered correctly, both in print and audibly. And certainly Vincent Bugliosi was irked by years of having his last name mispronounced and otherwise mangled. (The childhood taunts of “Buggy! Buggy! Buggy!” must have been intolerable.) And knowing what we know about Bugliosi and his nominal sensitivity (“The ‘g’ is silent.”) we might wonder if he considered the mispronunciation or misspelling of a name to be just another weapon in his human interactional arsenal. Was “The Bug” so affected by the mispronunciation of his name over the years that he felt justified in giving offense in kind to those he didn’t like? Did Bugliosi refer to “Stephen Kay” as “Steven Kay” as a subtle dig against his former courtroom companion?

Looking more into this I noticed that throughout the text of Helter Skelter Bugliosi goes further, not even calling Kay “Steven” (much less “Stephen”), but rather just “Steve” in five out out seven mentions. This strikes me as odd too because often people don’t want to be called by derivatives of their names. For example I know several fellows named “David” but I would never call any of them “Dave.” (How about you, David? Does it bother you when someone calls you “Dave”?)

Was Stephen Kay sensitive about the spelling of his first name? We don’t know. But we do know that the correct spelling is “Stephen” with a “ph” and not “Steven” with a “v”. This is evident not only in court documents from the trial (which Bugliosi would have had to have seen many, many times), but also in the way Kay has spelled his first name at various parole hearings. So we know that his name was spelled differently than the way he preferred in Helter Skelter.  Thus, the questions boil down to: Was the misspelling of Stephen Kay’s first name in HS an honest error, a rare oversight by a person otherwise noted for his attention to detail? Or was it an intentional slight by Vincent Bugliosi against a co-prosecutor whom he resented sharing the “Trial of the Century” limelight with?

Vincent Bugliosi  

Stephen Kay

Stephen Kay’s misspelled first name in the index to Helter Skelter


Stephen Kay spells his name correctly at Patricia Krenwinkel’s 1978 parole hearing. (Thanks to Cielodrive.com for the transcript page rendering!)

Stephen Russell Kay’s name as it is correctly spelled on the first page of one of the scores of volumes of transcripts of the original murder trial 

244 comments:

1 – 200 of 244   Newer›   Newest»
Robert C said...

Well I'll admit I'm not that well versed in the Bugliosi vs. Kay affair but because there are several other possible reasons for name misspellings or formal vs. informal use, I'm less inclined to believe there was any intentional slight or insult involved.

Now in this The Blog of Death [ http://www.blogofdeath.com/2015/06/09/vincent-bugliosi/ ] , shortly after Bugliosi's death, six paragraphs down Kay is reported to say, “I don’t think I’ve ever known anybody to be as hard a worker as Vince,” Stephen R. Kay, a former Los Angeles County deputy district attorney who worked with Bugliosi on the Manson trial, told The Los Angeles TImes. Etc.

It neither shows animosity (beyond profession jousting) nor does using the informal "Vince" seem to be anything other than they were familiar co-workers and perhaps even friends behind the scenes, much as Bugliosi mentioned "Steve' in some of his writings.

The repeated misspelling in Bug's book could have been from someone taking dictation or the publisher/editor or ??? -- even Bugs himself having a brain fart.

Nah, I really can see Vince having that deep of a vendetta unless there's more stuff to back it up (and maybe there is ???).


Zadfrack said...

How does misspelling Stephen diss him?

Amp1776 said...

It's does seem to be buglosi's style. Also can be seen where Mason is accused of being 5'2", and even having a black father is mulled over in the book. Finally buglosi's grave marker serves as his final pompous act.

starviego said...

Bugliosi's book dissed the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. Compared to that, a possible personality conflict amongst the prosecutors is a bit of trivia.

Manson Mythos said...

Bugliosi hated Stephen Kay. Your old friend Ill Bungalow Bill Nelson let that cat out of the bag when he revealed Bugliosi was infuriated that a quote from Kay would accompany his on the cover of one of his books. Kay is hardly mentioned in HS if you notice.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Both of them were and are pompous assholes who loved the sound of their own voices

St Circumstance said...

Bugs was an amazing prosecutor. He also did a great job investigating.

Say what you will of him as a man. He sure had a huge ego... I know he best the milkman and invented a motive blah blah blah...

But he got his man. He put them all away -and it seems he did so for good. Plus, he wrote one of my favorite books.

I think we all owe Bugs a debt of gratitude lol

😉

starship said...

Damn, now I want a pompous grave marker too! Never too early to start thinking about it...

ColScott said...

Saint- Buglisoi committed perjury during a Capital Crime Trial and as such was eligible for the Death Penalty. Fuck him.

George- Bug hated Kay because Kay knew that he lied under oath

simon davis said...

What's the evidence that Bugliosi committed perjury during a Capital Crime Trial? Was it accepted by a jury?

The word "diss" doesn't seem to have reached these shores. Is it short for "dismissed" ?

Logan said...

"...former partner in criminal prosecution"...it gave me a chuckle. Fascinating post as always mr stimson. I can definitely see it being a petty jibe on Bugliosi's part. It's subtle, but seems like a "fuck you" to me.
After all, Bugliosi must've seen kay's name in print for years before he released his book.

ColScott said...

Simon David= you continue to be harder to follow than George Takei on a Vodka Bender. Was what accepted by a Jury? OJ gutted two people and that wasn't accepted by a jury so what is your fucking point you contagious idiot? Bugliosi swore under oath he was not the LA Times leak. He was. Diss is a universal term for disrespected.


Now go finish cleaning that loo.

David said...

ColScott said,

"Saint- Buglisoi committed perjury during a Capital Crime Trial and as such was eligible for the Death Penalty."

There you go again. We've been around and around on this before. Here's the law, again. You are missing the key part, again.

California Penal Code Section 128. Every person who, by willful perjury or subornation of perjury procures the conviction and execution of any innocent person, is punishable by death or life imprisonment without possibility of parole. The penalty shall be determined pursuant to Sections 190.3 and 190.4.

I think George is right and add this:

"Judge Stephen Stothers granted the motion, and on April 16, 1971, he sentenced four of the five defendants— Lynette Fromme, aka Squeaky; Steve Grogan, aka Clem; Catherine Share, aka Gypsy; and Dennis Rice— to ninety days in the County Jail."

Bugliosi, Vincent; Curt Gentry. Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders (p. 552). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.

Bugliosi obviously knew the difference between 'Steven' and 'Stephen' and used it correctly when it wasn't Kay.

George, I've never been hung up on the Dave-David thing. Practically everyone born between 1956 and 1966 is named David. Besides, most of us from that era were called Davy when we were kids because of Fess Parker.

My wife, however, considers a mispronunciation of her name to be precisely what you suggest- lack of respect- and for a time believed my mom purposely did so (which she likely did).

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

David,

Is the key point:

"procures the conviction and execution of any innocent person"?

Also David,

If a person is found not guilty in a capital murder case, and perjury was committed, would it be just a perjury charge against the perjurer?

Thanks

Mario George Nitrini 111
-------
The OJ Simpson Case

brownrice said...

simon davis said...
The word "diss" doesn't seem to have reached these shores. Is it short for "dismissed" ?


Like the Col says, it's shorthand for "disrespected". It's been in common useage in Oztralia amongst young people since at least the 90s... originally used by wanna-be hip-hoppers & rappers, it seems pretty ubiquitous nowadays... perhaps not in the courtroom though :-)

Re: Kay & the Bug, personally I think they deserved one another.

simon davis said...

Checked loo, looks good, but cleaned it anyway.

OJ's case is not a template for how things work. Juries usually get their verdicts right. Hence they continue to be the tribunal of fact of choice in our respective communities, although they are being eroded here. I don't know the American experience in this regard.

If you're unhappy with the use of juries, contact your local elected representative or join a lobby group for change. I am sure they would exist in America. There are a lot of people eager to minimise the use of jury trials. I think reasonable arguments exist for and against juries.

Anyway, so what's the evidence Bugliosi was the LA Times leak then ? Or can you at least point me in its direction ? Was the evidence that he was the LA Times leak accepted by a jury?

I'm not making any point. I'm asking for information that may shed light on Bugliosi's alleged improprieties and misconduct.

I've asked for this before and I think 2 people kindly supplied me with documents and arguments. If I recall they were George Stimson and DebS. No disrespect to George and Deb, I was not persuaded by that material that Bugliosi did much, or anything, wrong (e.g. lied, assaulted people etc.). Don't get me wrong, he may have done such things. It is just that that material did not persuade me. And I've seen nothing else. So I'm asking you for your material. Or anybody else who's listening in. It would be good if we could just avoid the vitriole - I think I get that most here dislike Bugliosi. Fair enough. But I'd just like to see the evidence. Simple as that. No hidden agenda. No hidden meaning.

PS I did read with interest David's blogs, posts, whatever they're called, a little while back and I joined in the discussion. I think David's arguments take the case against Bugliosi further than anything else I've seen. I agree with David that Bugliosi may have had an unfortunate style of interrogation of people that could well lend itself to an interpretation that he did undesirable things in his interviewing of witnesses, and perhaps even in his adducing of evidence in court.

simon davis said...

Oh Brownrice I think you've made your point about me living my life in the a courtroom before. At least Col's comes up with new and fresh put-downs. The two of you should talk about how you'll next have a dig at me !

David said...

MGN111,

That is the key part.

Bugliosi's testimony about the LA Times article, if perjury, might be a felony (could be a misdemeanor) resulting in 2-5 years and hopefully would get him disbarred. But no one was convicted and executed because of it.

Your scenario: perjury results in an acquittal- I don't think that would be any different (a felony) but don't know what, if any, impact that might have on double jeopardy. I would like to think it would be an exception.

And if say Kasabian committed perjury they could pull her immunity and try her for the murders even if no one was executed due to the fortuitous intervention of SCOTUS.

Who knows, that may be why we'll never hear from her again and always heard from her with Bugliosi in the room. I don't know, its a mystery.

David said...

Good post, George, inspired me to do some research.

George Stimson said...

Thank you, David. And your posts have often inspired me to do the same.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

David,

Thanks for the answers.

Wow, so hypothetically, if it can be proven in a court of law Linda Kasabian committed perjury in her testimony in the Charles Manson case, she could have her immunity pulled and be tried for murder?

Mario George Nitrini 111
--------
The OJ Simpson Case

David said...

George,

I think you are on to something with VB. Even his comment about Kay and the conviction on the Shorty trial seems like a back handed compliment.

"Despite the fact that the body of Donald “Shorty” Shea hadn’t been found (and hasn’t to this day), prosecutors Burt Katz, Anthony Manzella, and Steven Kay succeeded in the difficult task of obtaining guilty verdicts against each of the defendants on all of the counts."

Bugliosi, Vincent; Curt Gentry. Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders (p. 556). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.

Notice he lists everyone except the summer intern and Kay last and not by alphabet. And by the way folks getting a conviction with no body is pretty extraordinary even if you think the 'Manson' aura helped.

David said...

MGN111,

Yes, it could happen- the charge would be- conspiracy to commit murder and thus murder, like Manson. The statute of limitations is open ended on that as it relates to murder. Yes, they theoretically could and with her testimony you pretty much have her admitting every one of the elements of the crime....sure.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

David,

Wow, that is really something.
Thanks for that great information and other information that you have provided me.
And, it really is helpful to me with some sitiations in another case you might know of.......

Also,
I hope you don't mind me asking since I do have in some
information (I just fell into it a long time ago and never persued it) in certain situations in
The Charles Manson Saga

What is your opinion of the book
Restless Souls?

Mario George Nitrini 111
-------
The OJ Simpson Case

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Hey Mario your psychiatrist called after reading this blog and wants to 1) increase your Thorazine and 2) wants to know how you got out of your straitjacket

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea

Well,

1. I don't have a psychiatrist
2. I don't take Thorazine
&
3. I've never been in a straitjacket

So Susanatkinsgonorhhea,
How did you come-up with that assessment?

And also Ms. gonorhhea:
ALL of the information that I have in The Charles Manson Saga is
Much-to-Hard for someone like you to comprehend.

Mario George Nitrini
-------
The OJ Simpson Case

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I came up with that assessment after decades of studying human behavoir and occasional run ins with the random schizophrenic and you my friend are.............batshit crazy

cielodrivecom said...

David said

"Notice he lists everyone except the summer intern and Kay last and not by alphabet. And by the way folks getting a conviction with no body is pretty extraordinary even if you think the 'Manson' aura helped."

Vince's hierarchy there is correct though. Kay had little to do with the Shea trials. Katz handled Grogan and Manzella prosecuted Manson. Kay did assist in the Davis trial, but Manzella was the lead prosecutor

David said...

Cielo,

I didn't know that. Thank you.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea

For one thing, I am NOT your friend.

For decades you studied human behavior?
Ha ha......

Ms. gonorhhea:

I came to this blog in all seriousness. I have read many blog-posts by these Great bloggers and commentors. By reading many of these blogs and comments, I have corroborated one situation that I have, that was told to me back in 1981, that I thought this person was bragging.....so to speak. It has to do with an item that
Alisa Statman says in her book
Restless Souls. From what I've read on different blogs and articles, some people basically are calling
Ms. Statman a liar....Not Quite
Ms. Statman is RIGHT-on-the-MONEY, but just doesn't have one item not quite perfect. Not her fault. She got the information from Paul Tate's writings, but it's not his fault either.
Its an item NO ONE wants to address.

There are other items also......

Ms. gonorhhea, for you to make statements that you do, that is very disrespectful.

Mario George Nitrini 111
-------
The OJ Simpson Case

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

What are these "statements" you delusional babbling nutcase?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mario George Nitrini 111 said...


Susanatkinsgonorhhea

This is my last response to you.

You bring Absolutely NOTHING of importance to this blog.

But you did give me a PERFECT idea.
I have read on this blog that you have used the name-handle........
......Dave1971-----
----to comment here.
So, I have come up with the PERFECT name-handle for you:

Mr/Ms "NEUTER-HEAD" gonorhhea

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson case

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Wow Mario you really got me there lol

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ziggyosterberg said...


Vincent T. Bugliosi's grave marker (LINK).

He was "MUCHED LOVED".

Should've paid a little more attention to the husband and father part, Vince.

simon davis said...

Please, enough mockery of the guy's grave stone. No matter how bad he was, it is the ultimate in bad and cowardly taste to mock deceased persons in this way. As an outsider looking in, I sometimes find it incredible the lows to which this blog site descends. Mockery of a person's grave stone, which I've observed going on for several months, constant slandering of the same person without any evidentiary basis, conspiracy theories which range from zany to insane, people absorbed with, and drawing conclusions about, misspellings of names, not to mention what I can only describe as, at least, an idealisation of a person, Steven Grogan, who certainly committed a savage murder and was very fortunate to escape prosecution, or even indictment, for other murders. It is fringe element loony territory, really.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

Bug hated Kay because Kay knew that he lied under oath

More from the Col's "I can say what I want but I can't prove it but I can still say it and keep saying it enough times so eventually it becomes fact" best seller.
Fact: if Stephen Kay knew there were shenanigans between Bill Farr and Vincent Bugliosi he would have testified to such.
He did neither.
I've read on a number of occasions what you've presented on this matter and all I can say is that if you had to stake your life on Bugliosi's guilt according to what Stephen Kay said, Col, it would be "goodnight Vienna and pleased to have known you."
Bugliosi had no time for Kay because his words were instrumental in him being brought up on perjury charges. Charges incidentally, that ultimately went nowhere. You would be hard pushed to convict anyone on the fudge Stephen Kay testified with.
The bottom line is that Stephen Kay could not say that he saw anything concrete between Farr and Bugliosi and as such, can't say he lied under oath. What you believe, what you saw and what you can prove aren't actually always that far[r] apart.
Ask Linda Kasabian.

ziggyosterberg said...


Your sanctimony is muched appreciated, Simon.

Matt said...

To foolishly defend the status quo, sanctimony is the way to go.


Matt said...

^^^ I wanted to expand that into a full stanza but I don't have the energy this morning...

grimtraveller said...

Robert C said...

because there are several other possible reasons for name misspellings or formal vs. informal use, I'm less inclined to believe there was any intentional slight or insult involved

I'm more in sympatico with this view than the one that holds Bugliosi as dissing Stephen Kay by misspelling his name. For starters, it is one of the most common mistakes of name spelling in the English speaking world. I've known tons of Steven/Stephens in my time and it's all Moroccan roll when it comes to spelling them. Even those that spelled the name with a ph were called 'Steve' by a lot of their friends and enemies alike. It's just one of those names like Geoffrey/Jeffrey or Chevonne/Siobhan where there's more than one popular way of spelling the name and unless one goes out of one's way to find out the correct spelling, then one will just take pot luck and fire away. Most of the time there's no need because we tend to know who we are talking about. If you ask me, it stems more from laziness than a desire to diss. My wife is called Cathleen but her big brother and oldest sister still call her Catherine. It's not a pet name or term of endearment, it's laziness that has gone on for over half a century.
Bugliosi, being particularly touchy about people pronouncing the silent G in his name, would be pretty stupid applying a put down to someone by misspelling their name, unless he was aware that Kay was as uptight about his name as he was about Bugliosi being pronounced with the G. I wouldn't mind betting Kay was used to his name being misspelled with a v.
Misspellings weren't confined to Kay anyway. Paul Whitley is frequently down as "Whiteley," I've written him down that way far more than any other. He's nearly always written down that way. He's written that way in Ed Sanders' "The Family," William Zamora's "Trial by your peers" and "Helter Skelter," to name but 3. But Whitley is his name. In Bobby's first trial, he's asked to say who he is and to spell it and that's how he does so;
THE WITNESS: I do.

THE CLERK: Be seated and state your name, please.

THE WITNESS: Paul J. Whitley, W-h-i-t-l-e-y.

I frequently jump between spelling Bruce's surname as Davies and Davis ~ I have for years done the same with Ray and Dave of the Kinks and jazz legend Miles. Even to this day people do this in pronouncing David Bowie ~ some say Bowie as in Zoe and some say Bowie as in Howie. Spellings, pronounciations and abbreviations sometimes also point to how many of our worlds have become increasingly mixed. Often one can't be sure how to spell a name correctly just by hearing it. In the school I work in there are so many groups of kids with the same names but vastly different ways of spelling those names.

grimtraveller said...

Amp1776 said...

It does seem to be buglosi's style. Also can be seen where Mason is accused of being 5'2", and even having a black father is mulled over in the book

As an aside it's an ironic statement coming from someone who refers to buglosi and mason ! But what's an i and an n between friends ?
People miss the point about the height thing. Charlie was short ~ that is what is being emphasized. That this small guy was such a heavyweight with such a hold and such reach and influence. To someone like me that is over 6ft, 5'2" may as well be 5'6" and vice versa because it adds up to one thing ~ short. The specific height is kind of irrelevant as a put down because whenever you see Charlie, he's a huge presence and if you look at Bugliosi's first recording of a vision of him, he's understandably shocked by how small he was because he'd been hearing tales that would take anyone's breath away.
In a way, speaking of him being 5'2" is near complimentary.
As for his possible Black dad, this was in his official records. If you were writing a book about a guy you'd convicted and part of the reason he was deemed to have instigated murder was in the hope that Black people would eventually take up the gauntlet and do it themselves and his associates told you he didn't think much of Blacks and then you found in his official records that it was rumoured his Dad was Black, you'd keep absolutely quiet about that right ?
That's why few would buy "Rise Pig" by Amp1776 but millions bought "Helter Skelter." Love, hate or be indifferent to Bugliosi and Gentry, they knew how to pack a book with 50+ years worth of talking points.

David said...

Grim said,

"Love, hate or be indifferent to Bugliosi and Gentry, they knew how to pack a book with 50+ years worth of talking points."

I got to take exception with you on this one 'Bugliosi and Gentry' didn't pack this tale with anything. Anyone could have written that book because the story wrote itself.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Bugliosi's book dissed the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. Compared to that, a possible personality conflict amongst the prosecutors is a bit of trivia

Kay is generally quite generous towards Bugliosi when it comes to TLB and he himself doesn't seem to look to take credit. It's different for the Van Houten trials and the subsequent paroles because he was a major mover and shaker there.
But vitriol between colleagues isn't something unusual. I've read so many books and seen so many interviews involving band members, teachers, recording studio staff, politicians, sports team members etc and the surprise is when they all get on famously. Blimey, even the bible has its share of stories of people working or fighting in close proximity not getting on.
Back in 2012, Brian Davis asked Stephen about Bugliosi and his answers or lack thereof were quite revealing:
Brian Davis: What was the relationship between you and Vince like throughout the trial? Was he open to you joining the team? Was he easy to work with? Can you talk about that?
Stephen Kay: Oh he was a very good trial lawyer and he worked very hard. He understood the case very well.
Brian Davis: Did you hang out during the case and discuss it, or were you friends afterwards? What has it been like through the years for you two?
Stephen Kay: No we haven’t really had any type of relationship. I don’t know specifically of anyone at the DA’s office that Vince has had a close relationship to. He’s just a very hard worker and after we finished the Watson case he left the office. That would be at the end of 1971. I’ve only seen him just a couple of times since. He went onto do a number of books and I think he’s made a pile of money.
Brian Davis:(Laughter) Yes, I think you would get no argument about that.

A piece of Kay sniping that I still find hilarious comes from "Five to die" where he says "One day after Vince had scored what he thought was a great point in the trial, he turned to me and whispered, 'Do you know anybody as great as me ?'".
For me, brownrice called it right when he said "Re: Kay & the Bug, personally I think they deserved one another.."

David said

Notice he lists everyone except the summer intern and Kay last and not by alphabet

Ivor Davis described Kay as toiling in Bugliosi's shadow during the trial and wasn't it Charlie who described Kay as the guy that carried Bugliosi's briefcase for him ?

grimtraveller said...

David said...

I got to take exception with you on this one 'Bugliosi and Gentry' didn't pack this tale with anything. Anyone could have written that book because the story wrote itself

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that then because while the events contained within the story obviously come out as they do, it needed them to write an interesting book out of those events.
It's interesting comparing it to its contemporaries of the time. They are not all interesting. Some of them {The Garbage People} are a really hard read. Some of them {The Killing of Sharon Tate} are bloody awful for stories that "wrote themselves."

David said...

Ok, Grim, I wasn't clear. I don't think we are talking about this case because of what they wrote. I think the case provides the talking points with or without HS.

St Circumstance said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
George Stimson said...

"Wasn't it Charlie who described Kay as the guy that carried Bugliosi's briefcase for him ?"

Not his briefcase, his pencils.

ColScott said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColScott said...

Simon Davis, Man with two first names- Bro, Bugliosi was a woman beating, perjuring, disturbed human being who made the world a worse place. I would piss on his grave and not think twice about it. Your lectures are banal and only have a place here because Matt and Patty went down the wrong paths.

Grim

Just because you don't want to accept the facts does not make them not facts. Something your President is quickly learning.

grimtraveller said...

David said...

Ok, Grim, I wasn't clear. I don't think we are talking about this case because of what they wrote. I think the case provides the talking points with or without HS

I'd say yes and no to that. I totally agree with your summation, yet at the same time, would we still be talking about it in the way we do had it not been written ? I don't think so, primarily because of the dissatisfaction so many people have with the book and the conclusions it gave rise to. I don't think it's stating a falsehood to say that probably most interested parties have the book HS as their initial foundation as opposed to memories of the case and an in depth knowledge of it outside of HS.
That may be different for lawyers and journalists, however.

ColScott said...

George Takei on a Vodka Bender

He was surprisingly good in "Supah Ninjas."


simon davis said...

What's the evidence that Bugliosi committed perjury during a Capital Crime Trial?

The only evidence the Col needs is that Daye Shinn and Vincent Bugliosi were charged with it. Everything else from thereon in is largely irrelevant. That it was thrown out means Jack to him. He don't like Vincent T and that's all there is to it. He's guilty, guilty, guilty ! Evidence is for camels. Say what you mean and mean what you say. And say it often enough for good measure.
It's the ISIS way.

ColScott said...

Bugliosi swore under oath he was not the LA Times leak. He was

You have no proof of that. The court had no proof of that. Stephen Kay had no proof of that. No one has any proof of that and Bill Farr refused to name his sources {2 of whom were lawyers in the case ~ one of which was Stephen Kay !}, even up to his death. As was said in the court of appeals "Without the ability to compel petitioner to reveal which of the six attorney officers of the court leaked the Graham statement to him, the court is without power to discipline the two attorneys who did so, both for their violations of the court order and for their misstatement to the court that they were not the source of the leak. Equally significant is the proposition that petitioner tarred six counsel with the same brush. Unless the court compels him to reveal which two of the six violated their professional obligation, four reputations of officers of the court will remain unjustly impaired."
You could not convict anyone on what Stephen Kay said in his testimony/deposition and nobody was convicted on what he testified. It was complete fudge. There was nothing remotely concrete to confirm perjury. Do you think Bugliosi would have escaped conviction if Kay had said "Yes, I saw Bugliosi hand Farr the transcripts or the envelope that I knew contained the transcript" ? He said no such thing because he couldn't. The most he could say was that after delivering the disputed transcripts of Virginia Graham, he left the room and when he came back, Farr and Bugliosi were talking. He also said that on another occasion, Farr asked him to give an envelope to Bugliosi at court and Bugliosi got angry about it. He testified that he did not look in the envelope. So to say he knew Bugliosi lied under oath about leaking stuff to the press is about as sound as saying that he knows Ringo didn't play drums on 21 Beatle songs in 1963 and that Bernard Purdie did.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

Bugliosi was a woman beating, perjuring, disturbed human being who made the world a worse place

Doesn't mean he leaked stuff to Bill Farr though.
Some of our greatest artists, musicians, actors, politicians, doctors, dentists, teachers, cops, soldiers, bus drivers etc fit that description.

I would piss on his grave and not think twice about it

Given his book "Divinity Of Doubt: The God Question," somehow, I don't think he'd be particularly bothered by your urine on his grave, much less whether you think once or twice or even at all. He might have other realities to be dealing with !

Just because you don't want to accept the facts does not make them not facts

Um, just what are the facts regarding the leak to Bill Farr, you know, the guy who went to jail rather than reveal his sources, the same guy who died some 15 or so years later never having told who gave him the documents ?
You can't twist the facts you don't have, invent facts that you wish you had and then have the brass neck and balls to come and lecture on accepting the facts without coming over like a twat in need of a calming holiday somewhere, preferably with a temperate climate.
All this To~ing and fro~ing would be avoided if you presented your story as what you thought as opposed to die hard, implacable, unalterable truth and accepted fact.

Something your President is quickly learning

We don't have a president in Britain. We do have stupid 20mph speed limits in many London boroughs though.

grimtraveller said...

Robert C said...

possible reasons for name misspellings or formal vs. informal use

One could be that whoever typed up the manuscript spelled Stephen Kay's name with a v instead of a ph.
There could be a simple explanation.....or it could be psychologically complex. Who knows !

Manson Mythos said...

Speaking of Kay, his copy of the trial transcript he sent to Charlie ended up in the hands of Mr. James Mason....who has officially returned from exile today:
https://mansonmythos.blogspot.com/2017/07/james-mason-is-back.html

David said...

Why do I care about James Mason? Help me here.

David said...

He was a very cool actor:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000051/

David said...

Oh, he's a 'National Socialist' = Nazi.

Well, you made me research.

MM,

I admit to being disappointed. While your politics have been rather too far right for anyone who actually can impact the political outcome of this country I actually erroneously (apparently) assumed you recognized that the murder of millions was not ok. I actually read your comments and at times you made me think....gone.

There will be no National Socialist revolution. Your bud is screaming silently to the wind. Those (of us) who can influence events will make sure of that if he had the balls to try.

Exile? Oh give me a break! Exile from what? The 23 people who know he exists?

He's working at a convenience store screaming obscenities at black patrons- Muslims Suck! Jews suck! Blacks suck!.

He's about as relevant as my kitchen table and could be made to disappear forever by my system if they cared to acknowledge his existence.

Exile? Crap. This man is irrelevant- worse he knows it and pretends he matters.

Another Nazi dumb ass who actually thinks his opinions matter outside the 14 people who showed up for his last 'Hitler Goddammit Was Not A Jew! rally.

Sorry to all, I just broke my own rule. Night.

Matt, delete me

brownrice said...

Don't apologise, David. Rules are meant to be broken... at least occasionally.

grimtraveller said...

David said...


Matt, delete me


You can actually delete yourself.....but don't. Don't do a St and delete a damn good post.


brownrice said...

Don't apologise, David. Rules are meant to be broken... at least occasionally

Whether they're meant to be or not is debatable......but it's important that some are from time to time.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Both of them were and are pompous assholes who loved the sound of their own voices

I honestly can't see why this should be regarded as a failing. Why should a person not dig the results of much thought/study/listening that comes forth in the way they present something ? There isn't necessarily a conflict between humility and liking what you come out with.

St Circumstance said...

Bugs was an amazing prosecutor. He also did a great job investigating

I think that sometimes, we overlook the importance of the latter. The subtitle of my 1977 Penguin edition of HS is "An investigation into motive." I think he did a great job investigating and a good job prosecuting. In truth, any prosecutor that nabs a guilty verdict and it's the right verdict has done a good job. Actually, they've done their job.

Manson Mythos said...

Kay is hardly mentioned in HS if you notice

To be honest, he's hardly mentioned because he doesn't play much of a role in the story. Most of the leg work had been done long before he comes into the picture and where he really does figure largely is in the aftermath of Bugliosi's story which is essentially done by 1974. Even Leslie's trials, interesting as they are, are merely a comma on the main tale.

ColScott said,

Buglisoi committed perjury during a Capital Crime Trial and as such was eligible for the Death Penalty

Scotty also said...

Just because you don't want to accept the facts does not make them not facts

Hmmm, speaking of which,
California Penal Code Section 128:
Every person who, by willful perjury or subornation of perjury procures the conviction and execution of any innocent person, is punishable by death or life imprisonment without possibility of parole. The penalty shall be determined pursuant to Sections 190.3 and 190.4.

You know, even when you twist facts or make up facts in your monomanic zeal to discredit Vincent T, you're not even careful enough to give them the appearance of actual facts.
You so remind me of the quote, "Half the lies you tell about me aren't even true !"

Matt said...

David said...

Exile? Oh give me a break! Exile from what? The 23 people who know he exists?


22


Suze said...

IMHO I do believe that Bug resented anyone who might steal even a smidge of the spotlight from him. Gentry was in the courtroom from the beginning. This shows me that he saw dollar signs, so he had to make sure that this was The VB Show. He acted as if this was a difficult prosecution. Really? The defense punted on first down every time with the exception of Irving K who only sought to disrupt and confuse.

Bugliosi wanted no co-hosts, no narrators, no Price is Right models. He let Kay do the difficult grunt work but gave him very little credit. To marginalize him further he dismissed his role and misspelled his name. Well done, Mr S.

St Circumstance said...

Stevie Kay was not one to shy away from stretching the facts in his own self interest either....

As has been pointed out - in all the parole hearings he attended - he said many things that really stretched the limits of reality.

But like Bugs- I give him some extra latitude as long as the mission of locking the animals up and keeping them there is accomplished. And it was...

Besides what are we going to do? Let the killers live and kill Bugs?

Wait don't answer that lol. I think I know what some of you might say 😀

Simon you seem a nice enough guy. But you don't seem to know nearly enough to write a book on this subject honestly. You haven't seemed to be familiar with any of the standard resources or books even ??

Mr . Nitrini of OJ lore - you both baffle and amuse me. I like it when you pop in though.

George - you have learned the fine art of writing posts which engage lol. Good for you. Your a bright guy and a great writer. It was the last thing you needed to figure out and it seems you have. Awesome !

ziggyosterberg said...


St Circumstance said...

"Simon you seem a nice enough guy. But you don't seem to know nearly enough to write a book on this subject honestly. You haven't seemed to be familiar with any of the standard resources or books even ??


You don't want to read a book full of arbitrary observations, and run-on sentences, written by a "lawyer" who doesn't know the difference between libel and slander? (e.g. "I've observed....constant slandering of the same person (Bugliosi) without any evidentiary basis")

St Circumstance said...

Not really lol. But he is very polite and I don't want to be rude. Maybe it's a ruse?

It's just that most average bloggers seem to
have to answer basic questions about the case for him frequently. How can you write a book with such cursory knowledge?

But I'm no expert either. On this case of Simon. Perhaps he is just using his own way to learn varying perspectives and opinions.

?

ziggyosterberg said...


St Circumstance said...

"It's just that most average bloggers seem to have to answer basic questions about the case for him frequently. How can you write a book with such cursory knowledge?"


Maybe he's writing one of those "Complete Idiot's Guide to..." books?

St Circumstance said...

Lol.

Matt said...

Complete Idiot's Guide to... Sanctimony?


Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Kay did and does that at almost every parole hearing ive ever seen footage of, shows you how strong the Helter Skelter fsiry tale has bern sold

Cielodrive.com said...

The deputies that the District Attorney sent to parole hearings were those who were most familiar with the cases

St Circumstance said...

I don't sweat the incarcerated much but it has to suck to listen to Kay and then Sequerwhatever repeat the same BS year after year until that BS becomes accepted as fact by the parole board. Bobby especially seemed to get frustrated by it, but it happened to almost all of them..

Oh well. The one way to make sure that can't happen to you- don't kill anyone.

HellzBellz said...

To Parole Board: Stephen Kay S-T-E-P-H-E-N K-A-Y ..... (Mansons Voice): KAY !! FROM HIS MOTHER !! Manson Parole Hearing in the 90s

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

it has to suck to listen to Kay and then Sequerwhatever repeat the same BS year after year until that BS becomes accepted as fact by the parole board. Bobby especially seemed to get frustrated by it

Bobby is kind of the last person that should be frustrated by BS being repeated so often that it becomes accepted fact. That's what he wants everyone else to do with his tales of the unexpected. Even with his purported story of what "really" happened, it's contradicted by Charlie, not supported by Mary, Susan or Bruce and most tellingly, changed on a number of occasions by Bobby himself.
Frustration, heal thyself.

It's just that most average bloggers seem to have to answer basic questions about the case for him frequently. How can you write a book with such cursory knowledge?

Doesn't it make sense to pick the brains of those that have a better/different command of the case ? Simon's writing from a legal point of view and much of what we discuss and argue about has little to do with legality and when we touch on it, as ColScott, Dave1971 and I have so aptly demonstrated, we often show ourselves to be found wanting.
When Simon pointed out why he legally thought Charlie was guilty, it provided an important balance to all the other stuff that we all combine to come up with.
He gave a slight inkling into where some of his book is coming from and you don't really need to know much of what we know to write it, but it strikes me that one would need to have a fairly in depth knowledge of the court case itself. Of which he seems to have no issues with.
Personally, I'm certainly going to read it and even if it never gets published, I'm going to see if I can get a copy of the manuscript.
As an aside, even the super knowledgeable make elementary {and sometimes populist} errors that show that perhaps their current knowledge is in need of various other parts of the puzzle that different contributors bring.

ColScott said...

Saint

You have hit on the problem. The convicted know it is Bullshit. BUG knew it was bullshit. But unless they follow the "facts" there is no chance for any of them. This is why we fight. Not for grave rubbings or fan selfies with Scramblehead/Adam Gabriel. Not for a justification of Patti Tate's sexuality. Not for Debra's desperate need for attention. Not to keep Alisa calm and collected. We fight because a deranged government official made up the motive for the so called Crime of the Century and now everybody thinks it is real.!

St Circumstance said...

Ok. I understand. I am all for keeping Alisa calm and collected lol

And you too Sir 🍻

grimtraveller said...

Suze said...

Bugliosi wanted no co-hosts, no narrators, no Price is Right models

You know, one of the things that Stovitz and Kay have long been clear on is how hard Bugliosi worked on the case even if neither would count Vincent T as a bosom buddy. He took the case to places and in directions Stovitz disagreed with ~ but secured convictions.
As for Kay, Charlie's comments about him holding the pencils, while funny, are pregnant with insight. And he was the guy who got convicted !

He let Kay do the difficult grunt work but gave him very little credit

What difficult grunt work did Kay do ? Why do no other authors of the pre "Helter Skelter" period {and there are at least 6} bring him even close to the forefront ?

To marginalize him further he dismissed his role and misspelled his name

What role did he dismiss ? How many writers of the myriad of books on the case have tons to say about Stephen Kay ? Come to think of it, where does Stephen Kay ever redress the balance ?
When Levon Helm wrote his autobiography, describing the songs that the Band came up with, he was clear that Robbie Robertson should not have been given major credit for most of them and says that most were band compositions. He redresses the balance. Family Man Barrett does the same thing in regards to his contributions to the songs of Bob Marley and the Wailers. He sued the estate and declared himself to be the band's musical director {and listening to Bob singing those songs with just an acoustic guitar, he's got a point}. Many uncredited writers or scene arrangers have spoken up and pointed out what they contributed to a piece or a film ¬> Harrison Ford did it twice {in "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Raiders of The Lost Ark"}. Much of Aaron Stovitz's role is laid out both by himself, Bugliosi and others, past and present. But where does Stephen Kay do this ? Where does he say "this is the important part I played ?"

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

But unless they follow the "facts" there is no chance for any of them

Yet Beausoleil, Watson, Krenwinkel, Atkins and Van Houten have all come out time and again disputing certain, court accepted "facts."
That ship has sailed. It began sailing at least as far back as 1978 with Bobby and Pat.

We fight because a deranged government official made up the motive for the so called Crime of the Century and now everybody thinks it is real!

All banter aside, exactly what are your objections to the motives that the guilty were convicted on ?
Genuine curiosity.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Oh lets see Grim, that a band of young people being led by a "cult leader" wanted to start a "race war" and then escspe to a bottomless pit in a hole in the desert and then emerge when blackie couldnt handle the pressure of leading do basically the whole premise for the bullshit case against Manson

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol no theyre not, they just rehash the same tired tabloid nonsense that has always surrounded this case

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Thats the point Charlie didnt kill anyone

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Thats the point Charlie didnt kill anyone

ColScott said...

Susan STD Grim is not interested in truth or banter he is basically a troll.

Grim re your first point- you do realize that you proved my point right? The people who have gone against the fact remain in jail. Which is what I said.

cielodrivecom said...

Susan, you'd prefer some new tabloid nonsense?

They rehash the case that was prosecuted, hence the DA sending deputies that prosecuted it. Kay remained at the DAs office until 2004, that's why you saw so much of him. What exactly are you expecting them to present to the parole board? Ridiculous theories about why Rosemary was wearing a dress and Leno parked in the street?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Not to mention the fact that his hero Bugliosi would have gladly watched an innocent man killed in the gas chamber, Vince was a piece of shit and i hope he died a painful horrific death

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

Grim is not interested in truth or banter he is basically a troll

With a daft statement like that, it's pretty obvious you wouldn't know a troll if one approached you on holiday in the forests of Norway !

re your first point- you do realize that you proved my point right? The people who have gone against the fact remain in jail. Which is what I said

What you actually said is somewhat ambiguous. To clarify, apart from Atkins, none of the convicted dispute the Helter skelter part of the "facts" {even Bobby & Bruce} which is what you were talking about; you referred to it as bullshit. But I'll repeat it; there are a number of facts of the case they all dispute but not the one you allude to.
Hence my point.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Oh lets see Grim, that a band of young people being led by a "cult leader" wanted to start a "race war" and then escape to a bottomless pit in a hole in the desert and then emerge when blackie couldnt handle the pressure of leading

None of that came from Bugliosi. All that stuff came from a variety of sources {Springer, Poston, Crocekett, Atkins, Van Houten, Watkins, Jacobson....} some of which were before Bugliosi was even on the case, some of which were before the Barker arrests.
What you've mentioned gave shape to what was presented as circumstantial evidence.

Not to mention the fact that his hero Bugliosi would have gladly watched an innocent man killed in the gas chamber

Now you're just being silly.
You are my real hero though. If only I could touch your shirt collars and lapels.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Tell me whats silly about it Grim, he knew Charlie wasnt present during any of the murders yet as far as he was concerned Charlie was going to die in the gas chamber

St Circumstance said...

I don't believe he thought Charlie was innocent.

It is fair to argue he might have went to
Far. It is fair to say he might have pushed people to fit his motive.

But I also BELIEVE ( I don't know to be fair) that he honestly believed Charlie ordered it and was responsible for putting it together.

If that's true - it doesn't excuse - but it does explain why he went so far and pushed so hard to get Charlie with the others.

I don't believe he thought Charlie was innocent.

David said...

Susan said: "Charlie wasnt present during any of the murders yet as far as he was concerned Charlie was going to die in the gas chamber"

I know you won't but you really ought to rephrase your argument. There are quite a few members of the legal community that would agree with the idea that inchoate crimes are fraught with problems but the DA is charged with enforcing those laws, not challenging them.

Manson was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder which made him guilty of every single murder regardless of whether he was there or not. End of issue. He might also have been convicted of felony murder which leads to the same result. We don't know about that one for sure but we do know he appealed the felony murder instruction and lost. So someone thought it might have played a role.

Perhaps try: there was insufficient evidence to convict Manson of conspiracy or that crime led to an unjust result. Otherwise you are simply wrong.

George Stimson said...

St. Circumstance said,

“It is fair to argue he might have went to
Far. It is fair to say he might have pushed people to fit his motive.

But I also BELIEVE ( I don't know to be fair) that he honestly believed Charlie ordered it and was responsible for putting it together.“

Vincent Bugliosi said,

"I cannot conceive of his believing some of the things he preached about, such as the bottomless pit, the Family growing to 144,000 people, and himself becoming leader of the world. Oh, he was a megalomaniac and would have loved to become leader of the world, but I find it difficult to think he believed those mass murders would actually start a worldwide race war between blacks and whites. My guess is he used Helter Skelter as a vehicle to work his followers into such a lather that they were willing to kill for him. Whether he believed it, I have to guess no." -- from a 1976 Penthouse magazine interview as quoted in Goodbye Helter Skelter, page 226

St Circumstance said...

George I didn't mean I think he believed HS as much as I meant I believe he felt Charlie ordered it or was responsible for it.

That would explain to me why he would go to any length to "get him" with the others. If he really believed Charlie was the mastermind behind it and that if Charlie stayed free it could mean more murder- that might have been enough to justify going to any length to get Charlie in his mind.

But again - doesn't make him right. And - this is just my speculation.

St Circumstance said...

It being the murders ...

George Stimson said...

Well, it a prosecutor later says that the motive he presented for a defendant during a trial — a motive that was necessary to prove intent and thus secure a conviction — wasn’t really a motive, I guess that’s okay?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Nope i think ill keep it the way i said it, thanks

St Circumstance said...

Never said it was ok lol. Just makes me understand his motivation to do it.

I wish he had played by the rules and I have learned over the years not to take him or his book as gospel...

But if he believed Charlie was ultimately responsible for the crimes and he had sufficient evidence to support a motive that could tie him in- it was probably important enough for him to make it stick ( for a variety of reasons including a future book or political
Career) it's a little easier for me to understand why he may have pulled a few tricks.

But I agree it's not in anyone's interest for a DA to lie or cheat.

But I am a believer that whatever the motivation - Charlie did play a role in the planning and execution of the murders, and I'm not sorry Charlie ended up where he is.

St Circumstance said...

Put another way lol

I just think there is a difference between Bugs knowing Charlie was innocent and making some shit up to screw him...

Versus Bugs believing with all his heart Charlie was responsible and doing everything he could to make sure it didn't happen again...

Not better I know. But at least different.

George Stimson said...

Would manufacturing a false motive to secure a conviction be different than manufacturing other false evidence?

St Circumstance said...

Manufacturing a motive would be no good BUT...

Taking exsisting evidence and testimony and tweaking it a little to fit better is not the same as making it up out of blue or manufacturing it out of nothing.

There is enough evidence of HS being a factor to say he didn't completely make it up. I just think he dressed the facts and testimony up a little to make it cleaner for his jurors. Kind of like photo shopping a picture to make it look better. It's not really the truest representation but it's not fake either. It's still the person lol

That probably lay doecnt make sense

St Circumstance said...

Probably doesn't make sense. Sorry typing on phone 🍻

prefeteria said...

Is HEALTER SKELTER in blood on the wall now regarded as false evidence and insignificant? Fake news?

George Stimson said...

Ask Patricia Krenwinkel. She wrote it.

David said...

George said: "Would manufacturing a false motive to secure a conviction be different than manufacturing other false evidence?"

I'm not seeing how the Bugliosi quote up there gets you to this. Bugliosi seems to be talking about whether Manson believed all the strange parts of HS. What am I missing?

prefeteria said...

Is it possible to surmise then that perhaps HS might have been a motive for Krenwinkel but not the others? Without HEALTER SKELTER and WAR it's hearsay. With them you have a motive.

George Stimson said...

David, if Manson didn't actually believe the "strange parts of HS," how could it be his motive?

prefeteria, sure it's possible.

George Stimson said...

You see David, this is why we have to have lunch. This whole subject is much too complicated to discuss in a venue like this. I don't know about you, but I actually do things for most of the day!

grimtraveller said...

George Stimson said...

Well, if a prosecutor later says that the motive he presented for a defendant during a trial — a motive that was necessary to prove intent and thus secure a conviction — wasn’t really a motive, I guess that’s okay?

We often speak as though there was just one motive presented. There wasn't. There were three. And a motive wasn't even necessary for a conviction.

Would manufacturing a false motive to secure a conviction be different than manufacturing other false evidence?

If you knew the motive to be false and the person you were convicting to be innocent, no. It would be a fit up of criminal proportions. If much of the evidence that came to you pointed in a particular direction, what would you be expected to do ? Ignore it ?

Vincent Bugliosi said,

I cannot conceive of his believing some of the things he preached about, such as the bottomless pit

The irony of that inclusion is that according to Charlie's own words at his trial, he did believe in this. You yourself did a really good piece on it in April of last year.

I cannot conceive of his believing some of the things he preached about, such as......himself becoming leader of the world. Oh, he was a megalomaniac and would have loved to become leader of the world

Al Springer, before Bugliosi was even on the case in November 1969, had come to this conclusion. He thought this having only met Charlie a couple of times. Why ?

but I find it difficult to think he believed those mass murders would actually start a worldwide race war between blacks and whites

And that's no different from many of the people that have had an interest in this case from 1970. Even I find it hard to believe that he actually thought the TLB murders would start a worldwide conflict between Black and White factions.
But finding it difficult to believe doesn't mean that presenting evidence that points in that direction equates to a fit up. Bugliosi thought Susan Atkins was a horrendous beast that should die. But he also said she should be let out of jail to die with some dignity.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Nope i think ill keep it the way i said it, thanks

Then any points you make will be falling down hard before they ever have the chance to stand up. Why kill your own argument instead of finding a way to put it that adds something powerful to the discourse ? According to your logic, the likes of Stalin, Amin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Hussein, Bush jnr, Gadaffi, Bin Laden and many crime syndicate bosses carry no responsibility whatsoever for the myriads of bodies that lay in graves because of their orders. They didn't kill anyone either.

David said...

George said: "You see David, this is why we have to have lunch. This whole subject is much too complicated to discuss in a venue like this. I don't know about you, but I actually do things for most of the day!"

I agree with you on all points. And because I'm about to go do one of those things I'll leave it at that.

George Stimson said...

Lunch with you too, Grim!

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

As opposed to your rambling incoherent posts where you repeat yourself use redundant words and make up bullshit as you go along?

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Tell me whats silly about it Grim, he knew Charlie wasnt present during any of the murders

What's silly about it is your assertion that Bugliosi was happy to see an innocent man die even though all the other killers were known and apprehended. Not only happy to see him die, but he went utterly out of his way to make sure the innocent man was found guilty and sentenced to death for no reason at all and then to rub salt into the wound, writes a book that goes a long way towards demonizing the innocent man, even to the extent that it causes the innocent man to further confuse the issue with every passing year with interviews that contradict himself and louche word games that cause him to look ever more guilty.
The other thing that's silly is the way you jettison the law because it's not the way you want the law to be and then build on that shaky and shallow foundation, even though others try to help you not to go down that road. Bugliosi was aware of the law of conspiracy. So whether Charlie was present or not at the murders is as relevant as whether or not he wore leather trousers or jeans both nights.
He specifically made the point of the importance of Charlie's conviction because he wasn't present at either set of murders.

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

As opposed to your rambling incoherent posts

I'll grant you rambling !
If you don't understand what I'm saying, you only have to ask. I don't bite




{anymore...}.


where you repeat yourself

Of course I repeat myself. So do you. Almost everyone that writes a few posts does. It's called emphasis.

use redundant words

Such as ?
Ha ha, I try not to repeat the same old words I used before {there's no satisfying some people !}

and make up bullshit as you go along?

Actually, it's called thinking on my feet. But you'll have to specify the bullshit so I know which bits I'll need to clarify/repeat for you so you can understand the incoherence, thus transforming the arcane into the mesmerizingly clear.
Ho hum, the things I'm prepared to do for gonorrhoea !

ColScott said...

I just realized that Grim is a mentally limited car driver from the UK who has never been to Los Angeles, America or very long out of an asylum. I apologize to him, the other board members and his doctors. If I had known the reason why he spewed such ignorance I would have offered him a sweetie and a lie down.

For those who came in late, I refer as I have in the ONLY Official Tate La Bianca Blog for over a decade to George and the Dragon. Bug inflated Charlie's guilt so he looks like a big hero for getting him.

This is a boring discussion. Why can't we go visit Whitehouse's trailer park and bring back the welcome mat for the fan girls on the site?

J Pinnacle said...

Hi, just a random unrelated question here since this seems to be the most recent thread on the site, but the Cielo Drive Audio Archives interview of Bill Rinehart seems to have mysteriously disappeared off of YouTube. I was curious if anybody has a copy in their archives that they'd be willing to share, as there's a lot of great information on that recording pertaining to Billy Doyle, Vojtek and some of the events at Cielo. Thanks.

ColScott said...

Tom O'Neill goes around doing weird DMCA takedown notices, he got a bunch of my stuff down and Bret's stuff. This blog is all tabloid stuff. Maybe ask Backporch Tapes?

starviego said...

J Pinnacle said...
...Audio Archives interview of Bill Rinehart...

Try here:
https://vimeo.com/user8886187

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Im sure Vince or Vinces "people" had it removed like anything else noteworthy pertaining to the drug angle

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol "Whitehouses trailer park", he really does look like trailer trash with that mullett but what do you expect from a loser who got cuckolded by Atkins

ColScott said...

SusanSTD- no he really does live in a Trailer Park and Patty wants to add the welcome mat (it was a premium from Rheingold) to her fetish collection.

David said...

ColScott said: "This blog is all tabloid stuff."

Thanks

ziggyosterberg said...


ColScott said...

"I just realized that Grim is a mentally limited car driver from the UK"


lorry driver

J Pinnacle said...

Thanks so much starviego!

starviego said...

https://vimeo.com/user8886187
59:10 mark Bill Rinehart
"I've repeated a story that I've heard that Black Panthers did it..."

Where did that story originate?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Oh i believe you, wonder when hes gonna make use of that "Harvard law degree" lol

beauders said...

Hey guys I listed on ebay a whole bunch of Tex Watson testimonials and promptly got banned for a month with them saying they don't allow violent content. Yes Tex is a turd but none of these are violent they are all religious based. Someone was real interested in them and if you're that person contact me at beauders@aol.com and we can finish our transactions.

Manson Mythos said...

I think I was bidding on those and they just vanished.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol fuck Tex and his "religion", if hes such a God fearing soul he should come out and tell everyone how the killings really happened and what the motives really were and also tell the truth about Kasabians REAL part at Cielo, he once told a fellow inmate that he'll remember every last detail about the killings until the day he dies

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
penny lane said...

Ha ha ha...coffee out nose snort...thx Matt

Matt said...

Penny, I'm just Ziggy's straight man.


grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

I just realized that Grim is a mentally limited car driver from the UK who has never been to Los Angeles, America or very long out of an asylum

It's taken you 2 years to work that one out ? That cloak of invisibility must carry more powerful mojo than I bargained for....

I apologize to him

Apology accepted, Colonel !

If I had known the reason why he spewed such ignorance I would have offered him a sweetie

Pineapple chunks or pear drops, I hope. And two please, one for each side.

For those who came in late, I refer as I have in the ONLY Official Tate La Bianca Blog for over a decade to George and the Dragon. Bug inflated Charlie's guilt so he looks like a big hero for getting him

Kind of like the way you inflate Bugliosi's nefarious evildoing so you look like the great defender of truth and justice ?


This is a boring discussion

Well Scotty, when you got nothing, it's almost an inevitable outcome.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Im sure Vince...had it removed like anything else noteworthy pertaining to the drug angle

"Bugliosi from beyond the grave..."

George Stimson said...

Lunch with you too, Grim!

If the Col will treat me to a day in LA, it's a wrap !

prefeteria said...

Is HEALTER SKELTER in blood on the wall now regarded as false evidence and insignificant?

Charlie admits he told the women to leave a sign, something witchy. Pat did so. She wasn't Black and frankly knew sweet FA about Black people, the nuances of their language and how they might operate, which in itself wasn't unusual for someone in the climes of Spahn's Ranch. Charlie's paradigm was her world and therefore was the seed bed from which her signs, whatever they might be, would come. And it was "HEALTER SKELTER" among other things equally significant. Few things would prove to be more significant.

Is it possible to surmise then that perhaps HS might have been a motive for Krenwinkel but not the others?

It really depends upon which others and which of the two nights you have in mind.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

mentally limited....very long out of an asylum....his doctors....spewed such ignorance...a lie down....

Blimey, you really are yesterday's papers....

simon davis said...

At least Col's comes up with new and fresh put-downs

Actually they're neither new nor fresh. Anyone that's read his site can tell you they're old, stale and recycled.

starship said...

Damn, now I want a pompous grave marker too! Never too early to start thinking about it...

If there is an afterlife and everyone meets up with all that have passed before, I wonder what Gary or Sharon or Shorty would say to Vincent T...

Anyway, so what's the evidence Bugliosi was the LA Times leak then ? Or can you at least point me in its direction ?

Notice that this question still has not been answered.
No evidence to twist, Col ?

Matt said...

grimtraveller said...

If there is an afterlife and everyone meets up with all that have passed before, I wonder what Gary or Sharon or Shorty would say to Vincent T...


Very good point. One we don't think of enough.

I wonder if he's run into the milkman yet...



St Circumstance said...

I think they would be very grateful to him personally.

St Circumstance said...

And I will add that had Bugs prosecuted OJ and used similiar tactics to outlawyer the Dream Team and get a conviction-

Ronald and Nicole would be as well.

I'm either case I'm sure they wouldn't care what means he used to get their killers. And I think they would all be thankful he did

😀

ziggyosterberg said...


grimtraveller said...

"Charlie admits he told the women to leave a sign, something witchy. Pat did so. She wasn't Black and frankly knew sweet FA about Black people, the nuances of their language and how they might operate, which in itself wasn't unusual for someone in the climes of Spahn's Ranch. Charlie's paradigm was her world and therefore was the seed bed from which her signs, whatever they might be, would come. And it was "HEALTER SKELTER" among other things equally significant. Few things would prove to be more significant."


Pat was from Inglewood, California (a few miles from Watts). Her mother was from Mobile, Alabama, and Pat lived and went to school there before she met Charlie. She was also later arrested there.

It's highly doubtful that she "knew sweet FA about Black people", or that "Charlie's paradigm was her world". Believe it or not, she lived in a world full of "Black people", and full of prejudice and racism against "Black people", before Charlie ever had her ear.

And the fact that she never even bothered to learn to spell "Helter Skelter" might give you an indication of how serious a student of Manson (or the Beatles) she was.

ziggyosterberg said...


Shit. I just realized that I got trolled by Grim again.

Well done. I fell for it. 😀 (stolen emoji fro St C)

St Circumstance said...

Any time 🍻

Panamint Patty said...

I hate you Don

ziggyosterberg said...


Trump? Join the club. 🍻

St Circumstance said...

You can steal my emogies lol

Trump ? Not a fan lol but they don't like political debate here

starviego said...


grimtraveller said...
Charlie admits he told the women to leave a sign, something witchy. Pat did so.

So it is entirely coincidental that variations of the word "Pig," written in blood, were found at the Hinman, Tate, and LaBianca crime scenes? I believe Charlie told the girls exactly what to do.

Bugliosi, pg331-2(paperback version):
Brooks Posten: "He(Manson) said a group of real blacks would come out of the ghettos and do an atrocious crime... They would do an atrocious murder with stabbing, killing, cutting bodies to pieces, smearing blood on the walls, writing 'pigs' on the walls... in the victim's own blood." ...
Bugliosi: The conversation had occurred in February 1969, at the Gresham Street house.... ...six months before the Tate-LaBianca murders Charles Manson was telling the Family exactly how the murders would occur, complete even to writing "pigs" in the victim's own blood.

ColScott said...

Patty- Hate is a bad thing. It gives people illnesses. I treated you and Matt and everyone first class for no reason other than I thought you were serious scholars. When we toured I saw no selfies or souvenir collection. Matt was smart and thoughtful, Julie was a doll and everyone involved was in to it.

People change. I met the ludicrous Tom O'Neill back in 2001 and we hung a bunch then he went and doxxed me. Why? No freaking idea. Jollies I guess. I wrote long legal opinion letters for Alisa when her publisher was afraid of her book. She was always skittish but now she is someone I don't talk to for reasons she is well aware of. Max Frost went on tour with Bill Nelson then his psychosis manifested itself and Max got out. I had lunch not long ago with Bo Bushnell that I immensely enjoyed and then 4 months later got emails telling me I was a dick.

You guys changed Patty. You tracked down an unrepentant killer and took snapshots with him. I then found out that you guys collected goddamn souvenirs and grave rubbings. You can hate me all you want but what you really hate is what you have become.

Panamint Patty said...

So full of shit

ColScott said...

Which part Patty? About hate? About Max? About Clem selfies? WHICH PART PATTY?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Is Grogan still retarded with shit for brains or did some time in the old Grey Bar Hotel cure him of that?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Panamint Patty said...

You're just cheesed off that Quentin is making your movie you big turd

grimtraveller said...

ziggyosterberg said...

Pat was from Inglewood, California (a few miles from Watts)

Yes, precisely, a few miles from Watts. A few miles that makes all the difference between what you may know and what you may not have a clue about.

Her mother was from Mobile, Alabama, and Pat lived and went to school there before she met Charlie. She was also later arrested there

She was only in Alabama for about a term before going back to California. Was she hanging with Black people at school ? In the period when she fled there just before her arrest ?

It's highly doubtful that she "knew sweet FA about Black people", or that "Charlie's paradigm was her world"

Charlie's paradigm became the world of most of the people that lived at Spahn, especially those like Pat, Lynne, Susan and Mary that had been with him from the early days.
Going to school with Italians or Rumanians or whoever doesn't give you anywhere close to the kind of in depth knowledge of those peoples' nuances as actually hanging around with them so yeah, Pat knew pretty much sweet FA about Black people and the nuances of much of their language and real expression. She wouldn't have written "Healter Skelter" if she did. That phrase, as various commentators have pointed out, was virtually a Charlie Manson calling card and it's perhaps significant that its existence was never revealed to and in the press. There's a few people that might have linked the Family to those crimes earlier, had that been the case.

Believe it or not, she lived in a world full of "Black people", and full of prejudice and racism against "Black people", before Charlie ever had her ear

Which only served to strengthen the things he had to say about Black people and why it was their turn to be on top.

And the fact that she never even bothered to learn to spell "Helter Skelter" might give you an indication of how serious a student of Manson (or the Beatles) she was

Au contraire monsieur, it actually serves to emphasize the power of Charlie's rhetoric from the very end of '68 through to the summer of '69. She heard the term "Helter skelter" so frequently and absorbed its Mansonian meaning to such an extent that she never bothered to learn to spell it. Charlie was very much of the oral tradition as opposed to the written one.

Shit. I just realized that I got trolled by Grim again

Shouldn't that be "rolled" ? 😀

ziggyosterberg said...


That obviously went over your head, Grim. Have you ever been to Inglewood, California, or Mobile, Alabama? Maybe you should head on over to Google and find out what you can this weekend.

And please do tell us more about the America that you've experienced through books. Your presumptuousness and constant stereotyping amuses me. 😀

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...


So it is entirely coincidental that variations of the word "Pig," written in blood, were found at the Hinman, Tate, and LaBianca crime scenes?

It could well be.
But whether yea or nay, what I find particularly interesting is that you had three different people writing variations of 'pig' in blood on walls. If what Poston said was actually true, that as early as Feb '69 Charlie was prophesying that 'pigs' or suchlike would be written in the victims' blood, then it shows that much of what he was saying was in the air for a few months and people absorbed it and eventually replayed it. For me, more significant than Susan or Pat was Bobby's use of the word in blood and the definite aim of trying to shift the blame to the Black Panthers.

ColScott said...

You tracked down an unrepentant killer and took snapshots with him

Reading a couple of his parole hearings from the late 70s & early 80s I'm not left with the impression he was unrepentant. In 1978 he said "it’s kind of hard for me to talk about this because there are a lot of emotions that I have experienced, guilt and stuff, you know, what I did." CieloDrive.com also notes of Grogan "In prison, Clem transformed from a drugged-out zombie to a mature, remorseful young man."

ColScott said...

GrimFucker- Is Adam has apologized to the LaBianca Family or the Shea Family I am unaware of it


Patty the Stalker- Is he?

grimtraveller said...

ziggyosterberg said...

And please do tell us more about the America that you've experienced through books

Actually, books don't do anywhere near as effective a job as American people themselves.

That obviously went over your head

Hardly surprising with your superior wit and stellar repartee, Zig.

Your presumptuousness and constant stereotyping amuses me

I aim to please, my old Zigster.
Nonetheless, if what Pat wrote at Waverley was representative of her thoughts on Blackspeak, my point remains, stereotypical or not.
Bonsoir.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

fuck Tex and his "religion", if hes such a God fearing soul he should come out and tell everyone how the killings really happened and what the motives really were and also tell the truth about Kasabians REAL part at Cielo

Translation:
"Unless Watson says what I think he should say, I will never believe anything he does say."

Panamint Patty said...

Stalker! Lmfao

ColScott said...

"I wonder where this musician who is also a murderer is playing? Cool. I will buy tickets. Cool. I will bring other people. Cool. I will sit really close to him and swoon. Cool. I will talk with him and take pictures but never let him know how much I love him or even that I know who he really is."


Yeah, Stalker.

Panamint Patty said...

Stalking is a repeated pattern of harassment or abuse. I saw Clem play his guitar once. You're a sad angry little man.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

If Adam has apologized to the LaBianca Family or the Shea Family I am unaware of it

Leaving aside the LaBianca family {look how people freaked when Tex did apologize and Susan LaBerge forgave him}, would it be public knowledge if he had apologized to the Sheas and would he have been allowed to make contact with the family ?
Again, all banter aside, a serious question, how would you respond to a murderer, paroled or incarcerated, that apologized to you for the murder of a loved one ? It's not a trick question. I don't know how I would.
On Grogan's part, 32 years is a long time. Unless I was absolutely sure, I couldn't call him unrepentant, not even in making what I would hope would be a valid point. He sure regretted hooking up with Charlie's world after the fact.

ColScott said...

I am Six Foot Two (not little)

I am loving life (not angry)

I am going to a cool summer party (not sad)

Stalking involves tracking down and contacting people who don't want to be contacted

Thanks and have a nice weekend.

Panamint Patty said...

Weak

ziggyosterberg said...


grimtraveller said...

"Nonetheless, if what Pat wrote at Waverley was representative of her thoughts on Blackspeak, my point remains, stereotypical or not.
Bonsoir.
"


I take it that your Google search didn't go well. Pauvre bebe! 👶

prefeteria said...

Angry Films aside?

Actually I'd say if Mr. Grogan was painting houses in the SF Valley that would be one thing but the man is making public performances. I suppose that if there is an example of prison rehabilitation that he's a good one.

ColScott said...

GrimPuzzler-

"Leaving aside the LaBianca Family"? So basically "if we ignore fifty percent of your argument?" Ummm noooo

Steve Grogan aka Adam Gabriel is an unrepentant scumbag. And not very bright like some drivers we all know

ColScott said...

Preferable- painting houses was some Bug Bullshit. Yeah performing concerts around children when you are a convicted sex offender is a great example. Tool.

prefeteria said...

Concerts around children? What, like Chuckles the Clown? Is he also making balloon sculptures and doing magick tricks for the kiddies?

ColScott said...

Repeat after me - Adam Gabriel is a convicted sex offender who frequently performs in front of children

There is nothing vague about that sentence - your attempt at humor sucks

prefeteria said...

Maybe he also shops in grocery stores where children are present. Your point is absurd. Give me an example of any recent incidents where Mr. Grogan has been accused of or convicted of any crimes. The ones to which you refer were almost 50 years ago.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I find it hilarious that people around here will defend a murderer/child molester like "Scramblehead/Adam Gabriel/Steve Grogan who actually killed someone then kept the lication of his body secret for 8 years but will tell you Charlie who participated in NONE of the murders and was as shocked as anyone else when psycho Tex told him what happened like the second coming of Stalin lol

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

He killed a man and kept the location of his body secret while the mans family suffered not knowing where he was so he could be given a proper burial, Grogan is a piece of shit who should still be behind bars today

Panamint Patty said...

Who's defending him?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Dont bullshit a bullshitter

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

That Bill Rinehart interview is pretty damn interesting, sure makes me look at John and Michelle Phillips in a whole new light, Roman as well, never knew Jay was the real father of Sharons baby until listening to that interview

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Or that it was Frykowski that pounded Billy Doyles butthole, i always thought it was someone else, might explain why the Polish Pervert was found at Cielo with his pants pulled down

David said...

Susan,

Did you happen to notice absolutely none of Rinehart's information was first hand and most was 2-3-4 times removed. In courtrooms we call that hearsay and it is inadmissible because absent certain exceptions it is utterly unreliable and has been proven so for 100's of years... wait....sorry....you don't care. My bad, sorry.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Its all true and public record David

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Frykowski was a bisexual dope dealer and theres no way anyone with half a brain could ignore the reams of evidence and police reports that say its so

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Sure would be interesting to exhume the skeletons and do DNA testing on the baby, dollars to donuts says its Sebrings

David said...

Susan,

You're wrong.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

No im right

cielodrivecom said...

On 9-29-69, William Barbour Rinehart (Billy) was brought into Parker Center at 2000 by SIU for interview. After talking with investigators it was evident he was under the influence of some type of narcotic. He admitted he was "high on grass." He talked freely and implicated Mama Cass, Doyle, Harrigan and Charles Tacot in heavy drug traffic on the Sunset Strip. He denied ever being on Cielo Drive or being aware of who the murderers were. His only aim in life, according to him, is to sell songs, smoke grass and sit on a hill and play his guitar. He agreed to a polygraph examination on the following day.
On 9-30-69, at 1000, Lieutenant E. A. Deemer, ran Rinehart with negative results, the subject hyper-ventilated to an extent which made it impossible to run him accurately. An extensive interrogation resulted and Rinehart talked freely to investigators. He admitted selling marijuana, using all types of narcotics numerous times. He feels Mama Cass, John Phillips, Billy Doyle and Harrigan as well as a number of other persons in that crowd could be involved. He could furnish no details. Lieutenant Deemer and investigators have eliminated Rinehart as a principal in this crime. The evidence does not substantiate this individual's statement and it is the investigators' opinion that he is fabricating his story.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Patty slipped up: it's LPfao not LMfao

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

PanamintPatty & David

Trying to discuss ANYTHING with a NEUTER-HEAD is a Lost Cause.....
A NEUTER-HEAD reminds me of a MORON that keeps banging his HEAD against the wall, and then, the reason he stops, is because it feels better when he stops.
But, he
starts again,
stops again,
starts again,
stops again
Ect, Ect, Ect.........
So, The Equation:
MORON + HEAD-BANGING = NEUTER-HEAD.
Plain & Simple.....

PanamintPatty & David,
You are both Excellent & Outstanding Commentors & Blog Posters. Please
Keep-up both of your
Outstanding talents.

St. Circumstance,
Yes, I can be baffling at times, but for legal reasons, because of situations that I have/had in The OJ Simpson Case and Saga, it's the way
IT is/was. So Be IT.......

Amusing? I suppose so.

Me George Stimson:

Looking at Vincent Bugliosi"s misspelling of Stephen Kay's first name in Bugliosi's book "Helter Skelter," it does seem somewhat "out of place," but it could have been an honest error also,
Who Knows????

And as a side note, when I had my encounter with Charles Manson in
January of 1969, he said this phrase to me several times:

"A Revolution is Coming"

Mario George Nitrini 111
---------
The OJ Simpson Case

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

For those people who read this blog, I made a comment on this blog post a few days ago that I do not respond
anymore to:
Susanatkinsgonorhhea aka NEUTER-HEAD.

Mario George Nitrini 111
--------
The OJ Simpson Case

cielodrivecom said...

Of course you do, Dave

grimtraveller said...

ziggyosterberg said...

I take it that your Google search didn't go well

Yeah, disastrous. Yahoo too. Couldn't find anything to make me look smarter than I am.
Gadzooks Zig ! You sure got me there.
Please, accept my humble reverence and even some oblations, most worthy Zigaciousness.

Suze said...

Bug resented anyone who might steal even a smidge of the spotlight from him. Gentry was in the courtroom from the beginning. This shows me that he saw dollar signs, so he had to make sure that this was The VB Show.....Bugliosi wanted no co-hosts, no narrators, no Price is Right models

@ Suze, when he says in his & Gentry's book
"I accompanied Aaron to Younger's office. There was no way Aaron's comment could be called an interview, I argued. It was simply a passing remark. All of us had made many such during the trial. But Younger autocratically declared 'No, I've made up my mind. Stovitz, you're off the case.'
I felt very badly about this. In my opinion it was completely unfair. But in this case there was no appeal."

do you think he was bullshitting about defending Aaron and just cocking a snook at him as if to say "ha ha, I told you it was the crime of the century rather than 'just a murder' and I won, so yah boo sucks !" ?

Zadfrack said...

How does misspelling Stephen diss him?

Does anyone know if Kay himself, even off the record, has ever objected to the way his name is spelled in the book ?
On one of the pages his name appears with that of Steve McQueen and it reminded me of how, in the 70s, 'Steve' was regarded as such a cool name. Well, it was in England.

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I believe him

How could you not !

ColScott said...

GrimPuzzler

Gotta say Scotty, sometimes, I think they're getting better.
Only sometimes though.😀

"Leaving aside the LaBianca Family"? So basically "if we ignore fifty percent of your argument?" Ummm noooo

No, Graham Chapman avatar, leaving aside the LaBianca family because he wasn't charged with those murders and as such, doesn't figure in the angst that they express at parole hearings from when they started attending them.
Anyway, what was my 'argument' ? Even if we include the LaBianca's it's not an argument but a question. If an apology had been forthcoming, would it be public knowledge ? You say if it had been you're not aware of it but let's be blunt here, you're not exactly on the cutting edge of everything connected with what the families of the deceased feel or think. You're that once heralded boxer that didn't know when to lay down their gloves and went out for that one last hurrah.....and became fabled for reasons they would rather not be.

prefeteria said...

I suppose that if there is an example of prison rehabilitation that he's a good one

I agree.
Some people believe that if a person violates the ultimate taboo of taking life, they should either forfeit theirs or at the very least be incarcerated until they die with no chance of parole, regardless, and I get that, I understand it and were it not for some directions my life took, I'd hold to that view myself. I struggle not to sometimes.
But people like Grogan who committed murder at a very young age in exceptional circumstances, then spend 14 years inside and show remorse then come out and {as far as we know} live a clean and productive life demonstrate that not everything in life is as straight down the line as can appear when one first hears the story. While there will be those that say that even Nazi commandants who escaped justice for 50 years kept their noses clean, Grogan has long seemed to me to be the fly in the ointment for both the Family philosophy adherents and the "keep those bastards in jail forever" clan.
Both seem to have in built problems with the idea that someone can change having been through the Family cycle.

ziggyosterberg said...


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Does he have an Off switch?

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

He just goes on and on and on with his bullshit, i think his psychiatrist needs to adjust his meds

ziggyosterberg said...


RE : Bill Rinehart. It was an interesting interview to listen to. A lot of what he said doesn't sound that far-fetched. Warren Beatty and Roman with the twins sounds plausible, for instance.

I liked Deemer's interview style. He reminded me a bit of Johnny Carson. He just let the subject talk, and didn't interrupt the flow. There was a part where Rinehart was saying that it had been 3 years and he still hasn't found out who got Mama Cass pregnant, and Deemer goes "Maybe it was a toilet seat?". LOL

The Stephen Oliver that Rinehart said was a "talented guy" but a "stinkin' actor", was married to Lana Wood (Natalie Wood's sister) for a brief period in the sixties.

Picture of Steve Oliver and Lana Wood on TV show "Peyton Place"

Question for Mario : Lana Wood (NSFW) and Lana Wood (NSFW) - Mario, did you ever pick HER up hitch-hiking? 😀

Stephen Oliver also went by "Steve Oliver" professionally, as an actor. Which brings me back on topic. 🙃

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Jsy Sebrings slave Amos Russell hadcdome interesting things th o say in his interview as well, seems the Sebring residence had a couple of female visitors in the days after the murders, the secretary Karlene and an unidentified skinny blonde who showed up nervous and upset and went up into Sebrings room

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Yeah i liked Deemers style, seems very non judgemental and understood the drug use was just a part of the times, in my opinion a good homicide investigstor should do more listening than talking, set the person at ease and they will give you some gold nuggets you wouldnt get by breathing down their throats, like i said i came away from that believing that Michele and John and also Mama Cass were alot more inbolved in this case then what is known

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Tell that to Sheas family who had to wait 8 years for the nice guy Clem to admit where he was remains were hidden and couldnt hive him a proper burial

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Why dont you tell us all about this supposed meeting with Manson in 69 Mario, im sure everyone here woukd love to hear about it, or is it all bullshit like your "rocky bateman" and my nieces aunts plumbers wifes friends dog groomers doctors secretarys ex husbands best friends uncles co worker knew OJ Simpson fairy tales?

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

No Ziggy, I never picked-up
Lana Wood hitch-hiking.

Mario George Nitrini 111
--------
The OJ Simpson Case

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Google the little piece the LA times did about you on your supposed "connection" to the OJ case, the whole piece basically makes fun of you and makes you sound like a mentally unbalanced homeless lady pushing a shopping cart down the street telling cat stories

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Grim you know absolutely nothing of this country and you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already are on this case by pretending that you do, it seems to be in your psychological makeup to gave to come off as an expert on everything but you know as much about the US as Barack Obama knows about what being a great American is......absolutely nothing

David said...

MGN111 said "No Ziggy, I never picked-up
Lana Wood hitch-hiking."

I did. Twice.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Well David, Lucky You....LOL

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

grimtraveller said...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

pompous assholes who loved the sound of their own voices...your psychiatrist called...wants to increase your Thorazine and know how you got out of your straitjacket...occasional run ins with the random schizophrenic and you my friend are..batshit crazy...you delusional babbling nutcase...Vince was a piece of shit and i hope he died a painful horrific death...incoherent posts where you repeat yourself...he really does look like trailer trash with that mullett...still retarded with shit for brains...i think his psychiatrist needs to adjust his meds...you sound like a mentally unbalanced homeless lady pushing a shopping cart down the street telling cat stories...

Words to live by, Dave.

you know absolutely nothing of this country

Yep, not a thing.

you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already are on this case by pretending that you do

Quite how one can look like a bigger fool than they are is a mystery, but I defer to your expertise on the subject.

it seems to be in your psychological makeup to have to come off as an expert on everything

What I come off as to you and how things actually are may well be planets apart, 71 old buddy.

like i said i came away from that believing that Michele and John and also Mama Cass were a lot more involved in this case than what is known

You came away from it as obsessed with drugs as when you went in ~ boom boom !

but you know as much about the US as Barack Obama knows about what being a great American is......absolutely nothing

And there we have it. It was bubbling under the surface and now it has spewed forth.
Now there's a surprise !

ziggyosterberg said...

Does he have an Off switch?

Can I borrow yours ?

«Oldest ‹Older   1 – 200 of 244   Newer› Newest»