Saturday, October 14, 2017

Tex is Headed to The Best City on Earth!!

 

 

 

My Transfer Down South…

 

I’ve been at Mule Creek for over twenty-four years, so it’s time to move. I have a peace from the Lord about it, and I look forward to the change. Previously, I was at California Men’s Colony for twenty-one years. So now, I’ve been approved for transfer to R. J. Donovan, San Diego.
Through the prison grapevine, I’ve heard the ministry there is excellent with volunteer support from the local body of Christ. I look forward to exhorting the saints, receiving encouragement from them and being part of their outreach to the lost. I believe God has a plan and purpose for me there. I could have moved already or still waiting to go when this is published, Regardless, I’m excited to be closer to those I know in the San Diego area. I’d love to hear how this site is a blessing to you.
“And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.” 
  (From October 2017 Monthly View on Tex Watson Website Abounding love Ministries)


So, Good Ole Tex is getting a better address.  It just so happens that San Diego is my favorite place in the whole world. So, even though I am sure Tex will get no closer to any of them than a sniff in the air, I decided to celebrate the fact that Tex will die in Jail ( barring another move) there by listing my 5 Top places that Tex will never see. Here is a, very fast, little mini St. Circumstance review of some great places if you ever have time to wander just a couple of hours South of the TLB locations to the best City on Earth, and have never been there before...



1. Mission Beach- Belmont Park 

Go on a Friday night. Just follow Mission Blvd all the way to the water. The  Roller coaster will be on your left and you can get a really killer gyro at a little place at the strip mall on the corner. Boot camp gets out each week, and all of the sailors flock to the intersection. Add in the street hustlers, performance and street artists, locals, and homeless bums- and it makes for a real carnival like atmosphere every night at sunset. Then you can go buy a Coors-light at the grocery store and walk up the walkway the mile and half or so to Pacific Beach and hit the bars. A truly amazing walk. The Ocean on your left, little summer rentals bustling with parties on your right, and mountains and stars on the horizon. Its my first stop every time life, or work, takes me to San Diego....

2. Gaslamp District

This is a good way to spend a Saturday night. This is a little neighborhood of "sort-of upscale" Restaurants and bars. I may be a little yuppyish from some in this community. But if you can put on a nice shirt and wear shoes and belt that match- you can catch a great buzz here and have an amazing chance to meet someone to share a drink and laugh with ;)

Around the corner, in walking distance, is a little outdoor shopping mall called Horton Plaza. It is a cool little breezy walk-around shopping area and movies, but more importantly, there is a little courtyard out in front with a trolley stop where you can by weed if you don't have a California medical license. ( unless they finally made it legal out there?)

3. Seaport Village

 Waterfront shops, snacks, tours. It also has a great view of all the Sail boats and marinas if your into the Americas Cup type of thing. There are several quiet ares with picnic tables where you can chill out, smoke a dube and drink some Coors-lights while the boats serenely sail by...


4. Coronado Bridge, and Island

 You really should take the Coronado Bridge over to the Island. You can sit outside at a little bar and have mimosas and omlets with a view of the entire City to gaze at. Huge Navy ships, and crafty little sailboats all fill the bay with color and life. When I was a college puke, we used to get a 12- pack and sneak onto the grounds of the Hotel Del Coronado and watch he rich people mingle and dance at the outdoor ballroom over looking the Ocean. As a hotel and Restaurant Management major, I used to dream of working at a place like that lol. Can you imagine. I never thought someday I would be one of the people out on that courtyard as a guest. My own dreams were once that limited...

5. Old Town

Great little place to get the flavor of Mexico without having to actually cross the border and deal with the hassles of Tijuana. Excellent place for authentic food and drink. Also very cool area to walk around and check out vintage trinkets and clothing. A little out of the way of the beaten path- but aren't the really cool places usually worth a little effort anyway?


As one Saint who Tex Watson will never be exhorting to do anything, I can tell you I wish the tax payers didn't have to spend one nickel sending Tex to a city that I love so much. I do get some solace knowing her will never get to smile or spend one second enjoying any of the wonders this City has to offer. As for the rest of you. I could go on all day about the places in San Diego that make it such a vibrant and unique town, but this is a list of my favorite personal stops. I would love to hear some of your own....

Otherwise, that is the update for today friends. Happy Fall.


                                                          - Your Favorite Saint



 

59 comments:

Matt said...

I’ve heard the ministry there is excellent with volunteer support from the local body of Christ. I look forward to exhorting the saints, receiving encouragement from them and being part of their outreach to the lost.

I dunno, to a Blackbelt Atheist such as myself that sounds just ad weird as "Cease to exist... remain one... die to yourself... Helter Skelter is coming down fast...


Panamint Patty said...

Patty grew up in San Diego and must agree with the Saint

joseph esposito said...

@Matt, NO such thing as an atheist, as for Black Belts...you can get them in the mail now, some for military rank.

grimtraveller said...

joseph esposito said...

NO such thing as an atheist

Oh, but there are those that are atheist, Joe. Used to be that way myself.
I suppose grammatically you're right.


I wonder if this thread will go more in a religious direction, an anti Tex one or a San Diego "Go~go" one.....

penny lane said...

I thought exactly the same thing Matt. Old stabby just replaced one crazy obsession with another..thanks for the tour St...but i live in isolation so San Diego sounds like hell on earth to me...rather like HS..😲

Jenn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jenn said...

I grew up in the north part of the county (Vista), and I still love SD very much.

He HAS been moved there. He's now "living" with Sirhan Sirhan and Eric Menéndez.

beauders said...

Manson and Sirhan Sirhan used to always be housed in cells next to each. Sirhan was always complaining about Manson's singing and guitar playing. Crazy days. Is Juan Corona still alive? Corona, Manson, and Sirhan were always housed together, what a threesome.

beauders said...

Juan Corona was known as the "Machete Murderer."

Matt said...

I live in the wilderness too, Penny. Never going to a city again!


St Circumstance said...

Tex mentions what he "heard through the prison grapevine" ...

I wonder if the prison grapevine in San Diego is buzzing that Tex Watson is coming?

Do the majority of people in the clink even know who he is or what he did anymore? Maybe in California? I'm not sure a person in a Florida jail today would really care much or understand even if they recognize the name...

But I wonder if it's a big deal in San Dog?

Mr. Humphrat said...

Is Tex part of the Catholic faith, because I don't think of Born Agains referring to saints.

grimtraveller said...

Mr. Humphrat said...

Is Tex part of the Catholic faith, because I don't think of Born Agains referring to saints

Some do.
The new testament usage of the words translated as 'saints' are quite plentiful and show that this idea of a saint as being someone who has lived an exceptionally good or Godly life to be utter rubbish. All followers of Christ are referred to as saints and separating oneself from those aspects of the former life that are seen as being against God's wishes are de rigeur for the Christian. The letters that refer to or are addressed to saints were very much present tense and inclusive of the whole group.
To a large extent it was the Roman Catholic church that helped popularize the notion of the almost superhuman figure of almost unattainable goodness that comes to many of our minds when we think of that word. But a saint is just an ordinary Joe or Josie that has decided to follow Christ and as a result of that is being cleaned up daily by God. It kind of reminds me of the way some of us react when someone uses the term 'musician' despite the fact that many people that don't do it professionally are still musicians.
It shouldn't be overlooked that some of those letters addressed to saints {with synonymous names like 'loved ones,' 'God's people' or even just the people following Christ in a particular city} often contain scathing and withering judgements on the actions and behaviour of some of the very saints being addressed. They cover the good and the bad.
Saints are just ordinary believers in and followers of Christ.

grimtraveller said...

Tex does tend to speak in very archaic language though, language that tells you how old the bible he uses is. Outside of a church meeting, I cannot ever remember hearing anyone use a word like 'exhort' but in a way, given that all of Tex's Christian life has been in the clink, that's kind of understandable.

Mr. Humphrat said...

thanks Grim.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Come to Now.
If not, San Diego is a good second choice.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

"I believe God has a plan and purpose for me there".

Yes, he needs someone to bless Trump's wall.

Lynn said...

I lived in San Diego for a few years. One of my fave spots was Ocean Beach....which was once referred to San Diego's answer to the Haight. It had the longest pier in SoCal, sand sculpture contests, chili cook off and a main street that never changed. One of the best hamburger joints was there, Hoedads....still there today. And the Space Man of Ocean Beach lived there...I have one of his paintings

Lynn said...

If you are in San Diego, a trip to Solana Beach is in order and the Belly Up Tavern. I have seen Timothy Leary, John Cale and local favorites Mojo Nixon and the Beat Farmers. Adored Country Dick....RIP. San Diego had some great local bands.. .I was lucky enough to be on the bill with some of them.

starviego said...

If anybody wants to look up the addresses, SD is also where Sandra Goode is from, and outside of town lived Stephanie Schram's sister, at whose residence Charlie famously prophesized about dead bodies on lawns.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Ah, the Beat Farmers. Saw them a number of times here in Vancouver. Had a ticket to see them on Friday, but Country Dick died Wednesday in Whistler. Always a lot of fun with them .... especially when Dick played his guitar solo on Big River.

David said...

Ok, I'll take this s different direction.

I hope this prison is the one where you go knowing you are going to die there. Sort of like you know who has the best pizza in town. Prisoner A: 'Dude, no one gets parole who gets sent there, man. You're like f-cked.'

It likely doesn't.

We can consider that LVH didn't 'kill' anyone and that the 'girls were battered into submission but everything we dislike about them- wanting to go, going the second night, stab/stab, etc. Watson did without any hesitation and by his own account he ordered others to act.

I hope this move- in prison terms- means 'lights out douche bag'.

Who knows, maybe then he will actually find Christ.

Jenn said...

Beauders, yes, Corona is still alive, still at Corcoran. Age 82 or 83, he's not sure.

Dani_P said...

San Diego is on the top of my 'must visit' list. Being an east coast girl I've never seen much of the west coast. Now with two toddlers sitting on a 6hr plane ride with them makes me cringe to think about lol.

How does one just move from prison to prison? Are they transferred or do they request to be moved?

I agree that religion is just a new obsession. It's just another ideology to follow. Oh, if only you could make a mass murderer tell the truth, even if just for a few hours. The questions he could clear up..

grimtraveller said...

Dani_P said...

I agree that religion is just a new obsession

If that's a reference to Tex, he's been a Christian since 1974 ! He's kept it up for 43 years and in terms of pulling wool over anyone's eyes or engendering sympathy or getting him parole dates, it has gotten him nowhere. It hasn't prevented him from being attacked in jail, it wasn't that that got him marriage, conjugal visits, or 4 kids, it hasn't stopped him from being possibly the most despised figure connected with TLB. Because while even Linda and Bugliosi have their sympathizers and likers, Tex admirers are even rarer than hen's teeth. In short, it's hardly been some buffer against justice. So it's hardly new.
As for 'obsession,' you say that as if that's a bad thing.

How does one just move from prison to prison? Are they transferred or do they request to be moved?

It would appear that the answer to that is 'both.' When Bobby was moved from Oregon a couple of years back, he didn't request it. He doesn't even seem to have known about it until he was on his way.

David said...

I hope this prison is the one where you go knowing you are going to die there

I wouldn't have thought so given that possibility of parole is part of his sentence and his record as an inmate hasn't been particularly concerning.

#Can anyone remember if it was Tex that was challenged during one of his parole hearings about the fact that he'd been in the prison he was at for so long and one of the board members felt that he needed to go to another prison to learn how to adapt to a completely new situation that was out of his comfort zone ? I can't remember where I was reading that {it was a while ago that I did read it unless I was dreaming} and because I can't find it, I wonder now if it was him. Anyone else recall such a happening ?

ColScott said...

San Diego is the ANUS of America- quite simply the most worthless piece of shit people and community in the States

David said...

Grim,

If Watson had found God in 1990 I might buy it. But the timing tells me one messianic figure traded for another. There is nothing about his crimes that in any fashion contains a thread of 'mitigation'. He lied during his trial. He didn't tell the whole truth in his book, post conversion, and there is that one piece that screams 'bullshit': Shorty Shea. How about a little Christian confession. You know: "I really need to get this off my chest." Or is it more Christ-like to hide your involvement in a murder.

CrisPOA said...

Starviego, you said...
"and outside of town lived Stephanie Schram's sister, at whose residence Charlie famously prophesized about dead bodies on lawns"

What prophecy was that? I didn't know about this story ... so Manson was already thinking of dead bodies...
Everytime i learn something "new" about this case it just gets more bizarre

David said...

The Col. has arrived.

ColScott said...

David


The Col is around you. He guides you and lifts you. He is the air that you breathe and you love him. You need him on that wall. Wherever two or more of you are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of you.

The Col hasn't arrived. He never left.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

It used to be that The Col was watching over the people, now ... he's watching the people.

grimtraveller said...

CrisPOA said...

What prophecy was that? I didn't know about this story ... so Manson was already thinking of dead bodies...

According to Bugliosi & Gentry in "Helter Skelter" the day before the Cielo murders, Charlie took Stephanie Schram to her sister's place in San Diego so she could pick up her clothes and guitar. Apparently, while she was getting her clothes together Charlie was chatting with the sister who was a Beatles fan and he supposedly told her how the Beatles had "laid it all out" regarding HS. He also allegedly spoke about the Black uprising that would involve people lying dead on their lawns.
The only place I've ever come across that thus far is actually in the book and I can only assume that Bugliosi or the police got that from Stephanie unless they actually spoke with her sister. I've yet to come across anywhere that Bugliosi elaborated on this story. I've not yet got around to reading Stephanie's trial testimony so I don't know if anything turns up there regarding it.
Interestingly, when Brian Davis interviewed someone purporting to be Stephanie back in 2011 on his then radio programme {co~interviewer was CatsCradle77 who used to have a great little site that unfortunately disappeared last year}, he never asked her about it. He didn't even mention HS. If I met "Stephanie" that would be the first thing I'd ask her other than "y'alright ?"

David said...

Col.

You are, then, Spartacus. And I will follow.

Dani_P said...

Grim,

Obsession doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing, it could actually be the one thing that keeps TeX on the up and up in prison (possibly even the outside world). But I still feel like he was obviously a person who was insecure and looking for something to latch on to, something to guide him and for him to 'follow'. He found that in Charlie and his philosophy and then after the murders quickly went from Charlie to Christianity.

He's spoke about how psychologists and counseling doesn't work for him and they don't get him because they are coming from a secular point of view and he from a Christian viewpoint. It's hard to work on yourself and get to the root of your issues when you can't just sit with yourself without any stringent ideologies. It doesn't have to be a bad thing, maybe that is what he needs, maybe he's a person who thrives on having something or someone to follow. You see it a lot in addicts where they go from drugs/abusive relationships/that 'lifestyle' to religion/AA or whatever it may be. And a lot of people live a productive and fulfilling life that way and that's fine. I just think it shows he has that personality type. He wouldn't be happy just sitting with himself, working on himself and not 'worshipping' or following a certain ideology. I only say this because I can relate. I was never happy or just comfortable with sitting with myself, I needed something to focus on, follow, obsess over. I've come a long way but I still do it with certain things, my brain gets uncomfortable just being still and quiet.

grimtraveller said...

David said...

If Watson had found God in 1990 I might buy it

I'm curious, why is that ?

But the timing tells me one messianic figure traded for another

Without a doubt.
One could add that having followed one messianic figure that helped land him in the shit {with the emphasis being on 'helped' ~ 'caused' would be the wrong word and wouldn't apply}, but turned out to be a fake, he'd be more adept second time around at spotting the real thing.
The reality is that the church worldwide and throughout all its ages has been composed of many different kinds of people including those that were definitely looking for a messiah and those that definitely were not but who, through their interaction with said figure, simply could not deny it. Also included are those that have a hard time following and those for whom to follow is an easier and preferable path.

There is nothing about his crimes that in any fashion contains a thread of 'mitigation'

For me this is a true paradox because the entire mindset of the Family and HS comes under 'mitigating circumstances'. Now, that needs to be explained insofar as it cannot and does not justify or excuse any of Tex's actions and he is fully culpable for those actions and is where he should be. But the circumstances that brought him to that point really are exceptional. I think that applied to Grogan & Atkins and does to Krenwinkel & Van Houten too.
I know many think the paradox route to be a cop out but it really is not. If any saga demonstrated paradoxes galore, it's this one.

grimtraveller said...

David said...

He lied during his trial

Which he readily admits to. In none of the parole hearing transcripts that I've read has he been picked up on that. He came clean on that himself in his book.
According to Col on his site back in 2005, "Charles 'Tex' Watson had a parole hearing on October 1st. However he didn´t show up and stipulated his hearing signed a form that he found himself "unsuitable" for parole for one year....This is the third time that Watson takes this action."
There are examples down the years of him doing the right thing.

He didn't tell the whole truth in his book, post conversion

As we've discussed before, much of what's in his book is culled from other sources. Given that so much of it is stuff that paints him in the worst possible light, I've long been skeptical of how much he actually remembers. You've been instrumental in pointing out how time tends to make for a less reliable account from an eye witness.

and there is that one piece that screams 'bullshit': Shorty Shea. How about a little Christian confession. You know: "I really need to get this off my chest." Or is it more Christ-like to hide your involvement in a murder

Not that long ago, you stated that "anything any witness says should be considered suspect until it is corroborated" and this is the problem with Tex re:Shorty ¬> reliable corroboration doesn't exist. All the statements of the participants came at least 12 years after the event. Manson says he doesn't know that Tex was there, both Davis and Grogan have continually said that they didn't actually see Tex stab Shorty. Not only that, Davis & Grogan's statements contradict each other as Grogan says only he was in the car with Tex & Shorty, while Davis says he was in the car with all 3 which is a belter of a point on which to differentiate with an accomplice. Kitty's 1969 statement regarding Tex's involvement is one that any lawyer could easily shred; Kitty "thought" Tex was "possibly" involved from snippets of gossip she'd heard but was sure about Charlie, Bruce & Clem {who interestingly all got done for the murders and no longer deny involvement}, Danny DeCarlo, who could have been independent corroboration basically had nothing but supposition re: Tex, yet Bruce, Clem & Charlie all told him about it. Funnily, DeCarlo had been startlingly accurate about Tex on Cielo night {coming back with $75} and the male party {"everybody went but Bruce"} that went out on LaBianca night. Mary Brunner could also have provided independent corroboration; she told the police that Tex had told her about Shorty's murder. Whether he said he was involved is not known but it seems to me that no one has ever yet been able to say that "Tex did it." Can we with confidence independent of cynicism ?
When Tex said he went at Steve Parent with a knife, you wouldn't accept his confession because none of the women saw him with a knife. When he confessed to twice shooting Wojiciech Frykowski, you wouldn't accept it because none of the women remembered him actually doing so. It seems like the confessor is damned if he doesn't and damned if he does.

grimtraveller said...

Dani_P said...

I still feel like he was obviously a person who was insecure and looking for something to latch on to, something to guide him and for him to 'follow'

He was insecure in many ways, by his own admission but during the 1960s he wasn't drastically different from millions of young Westerners of his kind of age. Many people followed gurus of one description or another, be they religious, spiritual, political, racial, cultural, musical etc. Quite a few of the movers and shapers of the 1960s found solace in philosophies they later abandoned or stuck with.

He found that in Charlie and his philosophy and then after the murders quickly went from Charlie to Christianity

Tex had a "Christian" upbringing and he departed from that because he wasn't exposed to the reality of Christ, just the form of religion and God as the old man in the sky with the beard kind of deadness. But when he eventually made the move, it wasn't a quick path to Christ. It came 5 years after abandoning Charlie and there was a struggle that I personally can recognize going on through those years. Some of it took the form of his lying throughout his trial.

He's spoke about how psychologists and counseling doesn't work for him and they don't get him because they are coming from a secular point of view and he from a Christian viewpoint

I couldn't agree more with him. I've observed before that there's a certain irony that the very thing that keeps Tex from sinking any further down the slippery scale of humanity has often been the thing that has hugely contributed to various parole boards keeping him in jail. It's the classic "heads, you win ~ tails, I lose." It's obvious to me that they don't really understand what he's talking about much of the time and there's an underlying discomfort with the real way he relates to Christ as being too close to the way he was with Charles Manson. Although people don't say it, after the reality of Charlie, the man with the answers and directions, I suspect there's a preference for the dead, form, "keep it private and personal" religion that Tex had rejected in the first place and which he has found to be so different from real life in Christ, albeit in prison.

It doesn't have to be a bad thing, maybe that is what he needs, maybe he's a person who thrives on having something or someone to follow

I don't know about that in a general sense but in the case of Christ, I'd say it was a damn necessity for Tex to have Jesus to follow.

He wouldn't be happy just sitting with himself, working on himself and not 'worshiping' or following a certain ideology. It's hard to work on yourself and get to the root of your issues when you can't just sit with yourself without any stringent ideologies

Thing is, Christ gets to those parts other beers cannot reach and it is not a comfortable process at all. But one always is armed with the choice with whether or not to go for it and continue with it. Being in Christ means a spiritual relationship with a real person, not just some staid ideology that was coined yesteryear. True, many Christians do treat it that way but that's not the essence of it. There's nothing easy about it which is why I'm inclined to give Tex the benefit of the doubt.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Grim damn fine points on Tex's possible involvement in Shea's murder You are a wealth of information I didn't know any of those details you cited and I'm assuming you're accurate because it seems like you usually are

David said...

Grim said: "I'm curious, why is that ?"

Looking at your comments I think a conversation on that will not be fruitful. We will continue to disagree but here you go:

You are Christian. I respect that. Like the Mason's of old I respect all forms of spirituality and would defend to the death any person's right to believe whatever they believe. I also believe anything I write from this point forward is a waste of finger movements.

I am a Deist.

I'd feel better about 'Don't call me Tex's' conversion if he had spent some twenty years in some secular therapy coming to grips with what inside him, in his emotions, youth, religious upbringing, thoughts and beliefs got him into this before he retreated to precisely what got him into this to begin with. One must initially accept a second coming, Armageddon and the Book of revelations as real, present possibilities to believe a second coming, Armageddon and the Book of Revelations is actually imminent or has occurred. You can semantically change what occurred but Charlie didn't say 'guru' he said Christ. He said Armageddon not World War III. Charlie had a Christian upbringing.

Watson's Christian upbringing had more to do with where he ended up than the notion he abandoned Christ and found him again later. He found Christ in Manson. A Hindu would not.

I'm not sure where I said Frykowski wasn't shot twice. I think I recall saying Atkins couldn't see it but that was a few posts ago. Regardless, the autopsy report answers the ultimate question one way or the other- science.

As to Shea: everything you say is otherwise accurate and all of those inconsistencies are why I said what I said. He needn't admit he was involved (except he was) but he could 'confess' to what he knows. 'I was in the saloon when they came back and Clem said....'. He chooses silence. He chose to remain silent as to that murder and after his conversion. Why? The snitch code? Fear of prosecution? No SOL on murder. Doesn't feel like addressing it? Doesn't feel its relevant? Which of these displays the appropriate Christian value or perhaps you could offer an explanation for his silence that does equate with Christ's teachings. I'd like to hear that.

Likely his conversion to Christ unfortunately allows him to recover from his nightmares, rationalize what he did to seven human beings 50 years ago and reach a level of personal peace with committing multiple murders. He also likely things he gets the E ticket out of Hell.

It allows him to feel secure in the fact that some higher power (the one he learned about as a child) has forgiven him even if not the State of California or the victims- secular beings who don't really count.

To me that last one is the key:victims He personally butchered seven people, six in the most horrific way. I apologize for the graphic content but they knew what was happening. They knew they were dying. Despite the multiple wounds it is the blood loss that kills you. You pass over ten minutes. Read Naguchi's testimony. This is not a 'good' way to die. If your Christian God forgives that....and you do.

Then the ten commandments must have footnotes I missed.

And I will remain a Deist.

joseph esposito said...

@grimtraveller, I know I'm a troll on a Manson blog, but for what it's worth, I think you are very enlightened, even tempered, tolerant, long suffering, and eloquent in your testimony for Christ. Some people can't understand a God that would even forgive a heinous person like Tex, and I say to them, Christ would even forgive Hitler, 'if' some people can't understand Grace. btw, Hitler, Castro, Lenin, Gaddafi, Trotsky, Karl Marx, Hillary, Michelle & Barak Obama, Angela Merkel ALL PART JEWISH...@David, we are no longer under Mosaic law, we are under 'grace'...(everyone gets in 'if' they repent)

grimtraveller said...

David said...

I also believe anything I write from this point forward is a waste of finger movements

I don't.
That said, a face to face would be the better option.

We will continue to disagree but here you go:

Yes, that is true of a number of things, but there's quite a bit of what you said here that I actually agree with.

Watson's Christian upbringing had more to do with where he ended up than the notion he abandoned Christ and found him again later

I said something similar to Dani P although it was his upbringing {and what comprised some of it} that I said he'd departed from.

One must initially accept a second coming, Armageddon and the Book of revelations as real, present possibilities to believe a second coming

I'd say yes to the first with a long discussion on the second and third because it's not as straightforward as it sounds in your sentence.

I'm not sure where I said Frykowski wasn't shot twice

You didn't and I wasn't saying you said he wasn't shot twice. In the "Sadie's stroll" post, we were having a conversation about what evidence says and what eyewitnesses say and you were saying you didn't accept Watson had a knife when Parent was killed because no one saw him with one and there is no evidence that he had one, even though he says he had one and used it. So I asked you if you applied the same standard to Tex saying he shot Frykowski twice given that no one could remember him doing so to which you replied "Yes, they are liars, every one of them whether it was by omission, by design, exaggerating their involvement or minimizing it."

Which of these displays the appropriate Christian value or perhaps you could offer an explanation for his silence that does equate with Christ's teachings. I'd like to hear that

If he was involved, I don't believe that he has done the right thing by not coming clean. If I had a relationship with him, I would seriously dig at that matter. I can't justify his silence if he was involved. When asked why he had said nothing about Bill Vance and Larry Jones, Bruce said that he hadn't wanted to wreck Larry's life as he was so young and he couldn't have been used against Vance anyway but since at least '93 he openly has been talking about their involvement. The only thing I can say regarding Tex here is that if he is guilty, he's played a very dangerous hand over the last 43 years but God is incredibly patient, knows what he's doing with those that place themselves in his care and sees the total picture as we simply can't. There are many of us in Christ that hang onto things for years that we should let go of, often demonstrating that our trust in God isn't all it should be....but much of the time, the almighty gets there in the end. The longer it's left, the harder it is but God's love and patience outweighs our fears and getting there in the end is something that God places great importance on.
For the record, I do believe that Tex was involved, too many fingers point in his direction, his name came up more or less right from the start and the words of Bruce, his brother in Christ, take on weight too damning to be ignored.

grimtraveller said...

David said...

Charlie didn't say 'guru' he said Christ

I was just using the term loosely to describe the kind of figures that those looking for answers were attracted to.

He said Armageddon not World War III. Charlie had a Christian upbringing

That phrase "Christian upbringing" carries a couple of different connotations for me and is usually used as synonymous with church going, which is something altogether different in my view. But that's a different chat for a different time.

Read Naguchi's testimony. This is not a 'good' way to die. If your Christian God forgives that....

Yeah, God does forgive, even horrific murder. Forgiveness does come in different spheres though; initially the one asking for forgiveness can't possibly do so for each individual wrong word or act that one would have been involved in up to that point. As maturity takes hold, one has a clearer idea of precisely what one is asking for forgiveness for.

Mr. Humphrat said...

on Tex's possible involvement in Shea's murder....I didn't know any of those details you cited and I'm assuming you're accurate because it seems like you usually are

The sources I got them from are "Helter Skelter," Steve Grogan's parole hearing from 1981 {can be found on ColScott's site}, the last 4 parole hearings of Bruce Davis {on Cielo.com's site} and George's "Goodbye Helter Skelter" {page 191}.

David said...

Joseph said: "@David, we are no longer under Mosaic law, we are under 'grace'...(everyone gets in 'if' they repent)"

I take it from your comment you assumed I was somehow attacking rim's faith. If that is how I came across I humbly apologize to you and Grim.

My only hope would be that you would give my beliefs the same respect.

David said...

"rim's" replace with "Grim's"

David said...

Grim,
Yes, face to face would be a better option and depending on the degree of insanity in the world I may be in London next summer and would enjoy meeting you.

"Shot Twice": ah, yes, thank you. You have a better memory then me.

Grim said: "The only thing I can say regarding Tex here is that if he is guilty, he's played a very dangerous hand over the last 43 years but God is incredibly patient, knows what he's doing with those that place themselves in his care and sees the total picture as we simply can't."

The only thing I can say is: I am a Deist. There is really nowhere to go with this. We have a different view of God which makes the conversation 'tangential'.

"Guru": Ah, Grim but words matter. I'm a lawyer. Manson said he was Christ and the Devil. Without addressing that we miss one, what I believe, is a key component of what happened. To say 'Guru' diminishes the impact this man had on his 'Christian' followers. A weapon he used both in defining the roles of the women and the men find's it's origins in the Bible. I'm just surprised he didn't make the women wear veils. If he is a 'false prophet' lets call him what he claimed to be. The Christian symbolism is extraordinarily important to understanding what happened, his motive and why it unravelled after the shooting of Bernard Crowe. IMO of course.

"Christian upbringing": we may be having a semantical issue here.

"Yeah, God does forgive, even horrific murder."

Give me the Biblical quote for that (Book, Chapter and Verse is fine. I have one handy [Deist: even if it is missing about 100 other writings because a bunch of political hacks decided what should be in it and by doing so deprived all of us of the ability to exercise our 'free will' on the subject of Christ. Instead in a strange irony there are now multiple churches all in agreement with the Catholic church that only what is in those books is canon. How extraordinarily ironic- political commentary over, sorry.]. I have a distinct recollection from my studies of the Bible that Christ specifically said the 'new covenant' did not change the commandments. I also remember Christ saying murderers go to hell. But It has been some years since I read the Bible except here and there. Please. I'd like to know the source. Is it just the whosoever believes in me.....?

I enjoy you immensely.

joseph esposito said...

@David, No harm No foul. We are all Americans, & British, (Yiddish)...some theologians see a linkage, it's hard to digest, but humans evolved from different tribes and became different, from the originals, and yet we are all still linked. If it's of any consolation, the bible does say, that the Catholic church is "The great whore from Rome" (The whore of Babylon) and it has 'poisoned' the nations...with the cup of it's lewdness" Jesus said: "Never call anyone Father" Mathew:23...I don't mean to offend Catholics, which I myself was one, as my whole family is... as most Italians & Irish are Catholic, and there is some good works done by the church, and some good people as well, unfortunately religion herds people by their tribes, as opposed to the written word, which has to ring a bell with the recipient, understood some people need the structure, but the institution has become political, as many of our institutions have...David, Jesus said: "If you even call someone a 'FOOL' you are subject to hell, something I have to worry about, because I do it often...David I do respect your skepticism, because we'll never know everything until we die, and then...we will know...now back to CHARLES FUCKIN MANSON...

Unknown said...

The Bible calls saved, born again ppl saints. It's automatic when one repents, and becomes a child of God.

Traci H said...

I wasn't impressed? However la Jolla, is breathtaking.

FrankM said...

"Some people can't understand a God that would even forgive a heinous person like Tex..."

I don't think an all forgiving creator is THAT hard to understand - what does cost some people is to understand a god that sanctions the birth of a child suffering from spina bifida or similar. The stock answer is that God moves in a mysterious way his wonders to perform, and who are we to attempt to understand his purpose, but that doesn't work for me.

"Like the Mason's of old I respect all forms of spirituality and would defend to the death any person's right to believe whatever they believe".

Up to a point, Lord Copper. Some Islamic fundamentalists believe that women should not be educated and that apostates should be hunted down and killed. I do not subscribe to either of these points of view.

Atheism doesn't work either for me - the only intellectually honest position to adopt is agnosticism, given that there is no supporting evidence for God's existence or failure to exist. One can, however, view the matter in terms of probability for which evidence may more easily be sought.

À propos of which, in his autobiography Bertrand Russell recounts a WW1 prison experience in which the warder asked him his religion. Russell replied “agnostic.” The warder asked him how to spell it. When Russell did so, the warder wrote it down remarking, “Religions are many, but I suppose they all believe in the same God.” Russell writes that this exchange kept him cheerful for a week.

beauders said...

Yes it was Tex it was the one recorded by Mrs. Tate and Suzan. I believe it was 1994.

Linsycar said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Linsycar said...

Oh for the love of mike!! Ridiculous effort to try to post... no wonder I'm a lurker. I'm a born-again but I sure ain't no Saint. I'm a sinner living in a sin filled world but try better every day to be kind and non judgemental. This site is pretty cool and I read quite a bit of it. Interesting to hear different ideas and to read what the locked up killers are up to.

grimtraveller said...

David said...

I may be in London next summer and would enjoy meeting you

I hope it happens.

"Guru": Ah, Grim but words matter. I'm a lawyer. Manson said he was Christ and the Devil

I agree, words do matter, which is why I explained the way I used 'guru'. Funnily enough, I wasn't so much referring to Charlie as a guru {even though one of the Beach Boys apparently referred to him as a 'scruffy little guru'} as much as demonstrating that many people in that period became dependent on teachers and people that purported to show them the way : it wasn't limited to Tex. I agree with all you said about what Charlie said and how that all played into what happened. Incidentally, I don't know if you've read Nicholas Shreck's huge volume "Myth & Reality of an Outlaw Shaman," but he really treats that aspect of things well. Best part of the book actually, because it deals with a side of Manson rarely taken seriously.

Give me the Biblical quote for that (Book, Chapter and Verse is fine)

The thing with the new testament is that because it is comprised of a few narratives, a load of letters written to churches or guys that were sorting out problems in specific churches and one apocalyptic work that meant something to its readers but little to succeeding generations, it's simply not written as a set of instructions, but is far more relational. It's no coincidence that Christ didn't leave a set of writings or instructions to be handed down and the first of the gospels appeared long after he was crucified. When fellow believers go on about "the word of God" and new testament scripture I often ask them what do they suppose all those gatherings of people who began the new life in Christ did before unknown persons began writing down their stories ?
All over the NT one can see that forgiveness from sin which led to new life in Christ was the centrepiece ~ this was the message that was brought to people all over that part of the world.
The "whosoever believes in me" is critical mass to the understanding. Jesus also says in a number of different ways what God is after and how he views humanity and the importance of repentance to the process {Luke 15 gives some good examples}. The John 3:16 passage that people love to quote and hold up on banners at sports events is critical {so much so it's quoted again in verse 36 and by others elsewhere in one way or another} but for over 30 years, I've been aware that I've never heard anyone speak about or even quote the two verses that immediately follow it. Verse 17 in particular tells us exactly how God would view Tex. Whether that turns out to be the end result, no one can tell. "Believing" isn't mere mental assent. It's what one's actions and life are that determine whether one actually believes. And that could be constantly shifting over a 40, 50, 60 year period.
I know as a Deist you don't go for this aspect, but suffice it to say for now, having God's presence as a living reality trumps things written down ~ which is mainly what Christ and those that came after him majored on.

grimtraveller said...

David said...

I have a distinct recollection from my studies of the Bible that Christ specifically said the 'new covenant' did not change the commandments

Well, he said to those of his day that he hadn't come to do away with the law ~ equally crucial is the second part of his sentence ~ that he had come to fulfill it. He is the one that the law pointed at. He criticized the religious leaders for not recognizing him because they didn't observe the law in the spirit in which God intended. They essentially did what much of the church has done and continues to do in too many realms ~ turn vibrant, free life into man made rules.
Equally important is that he deliberately bated his critics in their understanding and application of the law and also spoke in riddles to his own disciples. It wasn't until just before he died that he stopped speaking cryptically. From there on, one can chart throughout the rest of the documents that comprise the NT various explanations of things that were hidden or that weren't entirely clear in Jesus' time. For example, in regards to the law {a word that is often interchangeable with 'the commandments'}, Paul many years after Jesus departed speaks of {Romans 3:21-31} and how the law couldn't have applied to most people but how God got around that.

I also remember Christ saying murderers go to hell

He said they were in danger of judgement. He also said that anyone that was even angry with their brother or called them certain nasty names was in danger of judgement. And throughout the new testament, guys like Peter, Paul, James and Jude that were operating at God's behest mentioned all kinds of behaviour that would land someone in an unfavourable position regarding judgement.
There is so much interconnected stuff throughout the NT that addresses your questions and points and one thing I want to avoid is turning a post on Tex going to prison in San Diego into a lengthy thing on the meanings of statements and words from the NT that might turn people off and away. I'm happy to respond privately.
I also recognize that it's impossible to conduct conversations on this case without delving into religion {Eastern, Islamic~esque, Christian} because they are fundamental to not only what went on but the times in which they happened.
I just don't want to delve too deep !

grimtraveller said...

David said...

To say 'Guru' diminishes the impact this man had on his 'Christian' followers. A weapon he used both in defining the roles of the women and the men find's it's origins in the Bible

That's an interesting one and is kind of {sorry.....} paradoxical. If there is one aspect of biblical writing that really has been misrepresented down the centuries, it's the position and role of women. It's scandalous and what is quite fascinating is how both believer and non believer alike have so often trotted out the same misinterpretation.
However, there really aren't many places or eras up to the 1960s that were markedly different. Parts of the world that had no biblical penetration went down the same road.
It should also be pointed out that the women in the Family bought wholesale into Charlie's philosophy. For them their roles represented to a large extent a middle finger to what many perceived as 'christian'. Charlie's schtick regarding females is just as strongly traceable to his Mum trying to get rid of him and eventually succeeding, mixed with the young women feeling that they were freer and more enlightened than their 'christian' parents who they saw as living bloody boring, in some cases, divorced, wrecked lives that they didn't really want any part of.
As ever, it's nuanced.
joseph esposito said...

the bible does say, that the Catholic church is "The great whore from Rome" (The whore of Babylon) and it has 'poisoned' the nations...with the cup of it's lewdness"

One needs to careful there because none of the biblical writers said that. Yes, the whore of Babylon is used as a metaphor for that mindset that sets itself against God and yes, one could read into it that there could be political and religious dimensions, but Rome isn't specifically mentioned, nor is the Roman Catholic church. It didn't exist at the time Revelation was written.
In the beginning the entire church was 'catholic' and arguably still is or should be because all 'catholic' means is 'universal' or 'open to all' or 'broad'.

FrankM said...

what does cost some people is to understand a god that sanctions the birth of a child suffering from spina bifida or similar. The stock answer is that God moves in a mysterious way his wonders to perform, and who are we to attempt to understand his purpose, but that doesn't work for me

The weird thing is that sometimes, God does move in a way that at that time, we just can't fathom. There are enough times throughout the bible where God does explain why certain things befall people, but frustratingly, not every time. The answers aren't always pretty. And in the modern day, God has explained why certain things have happened but the reality has often been that the recipients reject what they've been told.
I think it's daft to not attempt to understand God's purpose though, even if we're often at fault, because that's the way we are made.

joseph esposito said...

@Grim, I feel guilty for trolling this conversation away from Manson blog. HOWEVER..(yes I took the bait)...sorry, I'm going to have to agree with David, to the extent that 'the rules' do matter, some are for practicality, (Tapeworms in pork)..some are personal opinions, (Paul saying he felt MEN should wear their hair short)and there 'are' rules that are commands from God through the Apostles...GENDER EQUALITY 'IS' WRONG! God does not give wo-MEN the same authority as a MAN! Wives are to OBEY their husbands. They are to dress modest, and are not to draw attention to themselves. They are not to be in the instructor role, and are not to usurp authority over MEN. Jesus said: "I will turn wo-MEN MALE, so they may enter heaven, for all wo-MEN who become MALE, will enter heaven" Sorry Grim, but God gives MAN dominion over wo-MEN. That means we are stewards, Patriarchy is necessary, for the survival of the tribe.

grimtraveller said...

FrankM said...

Some Islamic fundamentalists believe that women should not be educated and that apostates should be hunted down and killed. I do not subscribe to either of these points of view

The point wasn't about agreeing with someone's beliefs, just their freedom to believe what they want. I don't like some things I hear. But by all means, people must believe them if they wish. In the UK at the moment, we seem to be going through this thing of invoking the thought and belief police. Not only are people trampling on other's views and beliefs, there seems to be this kind of "you are deficient for even thinking or believing these things. This isn't the kind of view we want in this country." Now, it may actually be that some of those folk are deficient for having such thoughts but to say they shouldn't believe what they want to is for me a bridge too far.
Also, just because I uphold your freedom to think or believe what you want doesn't mean I want to hear it. Nor does it mean I won't challenge it if I do. Nor does it mean I respect the actual view.

the only intellectually honest position to adopt is agnosticism, given that there is no supporting evidence for God's existence or failure to exist

I actually have a certain sympatico with this view but would add that that is why God doesn't require our intellect and intelligence but our faith, which is essentially trust. I could tell you of 32 years worth of stories of how God has impacted my life. Not things in my imagination, not things I'd make up etc. But I could never prove any of it to someone that wasn't there at the time or someone that wasn't open to such things {even then I couldn't really prove, only explain why/how}. And it might be asking too much or wholly unreasonable to say "take my word for this." Even when fellow believers tell me of certain things, I weigh them up and don't just accept what I've been told {how do I know it's not coincidence ? Or exaggeration ? Or trying to look good etc} and others have done this with me {and I'm glad they did, ultimately}. And sometimes I conclude, sorry, this wasn't God and other times I conclude it was.
Evidence can mean different things to different people's situations.

grimtraveller said...

joseph esposito said...

'the rules' do matter, some are for practicality, (Tapeworms in pork)

No one said the rules didn't matter.
And if you look at the reasons God gives the Israelites for not eating pork, it has nothing to do with tapeworms or practical considerations. Cook it properly and there'll be no worms. I've never had tapeworms and I've been eating pork since I grew teeth. And if you feel God doesn't do things for reasons only God can fathom, read Paul's argument in Romans 9. God does some things because God chooses to do them and doesn't tell us.

some are personal opinions, (Paul saying he felt MEN should wear their hair short)

Some of what was taught as Godly command in fact was the opinion of the apostle and quite a bit that came from the apostle as a command from God has been almost routinely ignored.

and there 'are' rules that are commands from God through the Apostles

You'll get no argument from me there. But as an exercise, actually count how many actually are direct or even indirect commands and how much is apostolic advice. Advice you may not feel applies.
You may be surprised.

grimtraveller said...

joseph esposito said...

GENDER EQUALITY 'IS' WRONG! God does not give wo-MEN the same authority as a MAN! Wives are to OBEY their husbands

This demonstrates what I was saying to David earlier about the NT, where you have 27 documents comprising of 5 narratives, one apocalyptic prophecy {itself containing 7 letters} and 21 letters written to different people in vastly differing situations over many years. Each letter and therefore the contents of those letters is set within a different context. There is some overlap {for example, the letters to Timothy & Titus address the same set of crises} but for every "wives are to obey their husbands" there's a "the husband is not in charge of his own body ~ the wife is." For every "the woman is to remain silent" there is a "whenever you meet, everybody is to bring something ~ a teaching, a song, a prophecy, an interpretation and all for the common good." For every Paul telling the Colossian women to submit to their husbands, there's the same Paul telling the Ephesian husbands and wives to submit to each other because they love Christ.
I could go on. Suffice it to say, these and more, tell me that there is a context to everything you read in the NT and the simple reality is certainly most fellow believers I have come across never read in context. So much is read only as command, even when it's clearly not. That's how you end up stating there is no gender equality.
You want to know what God says about gender equality ? It's there right at the start of Genesis. God made man the species, in his image. And the way that the image of the creator of the universe is expressed on this earth is via male and female. Not male. Unless there is female, there is no image of God.


They are to dress modest, and are not to draw attention to themselves

That's right. It doesn't mean they were inferior, rather, that that which made them beautiful was what was inside, not outward, as is said on more than one occasion by more than one writer. Concentrate on being a beautiful person not a person who conforms to the current arbitrary version of beauty.

They are not to be in the instructor role, and are not to usurp authority over MEN

There were female apostles and women with important roles mentioned in Paul's letters. To understand the bit about the instructors, you need to understand what was happening in Ephesus and Crete {which you'll get some insight from if you look at Paul's farewell & warning to the Ephesians in Acts 20}, why Tim & Titus were sent to those places and how it was being dealt with by the time of the letter in Revelation.

Jesus said: "I will turn wo-MEN MALE, so they may enter heaven, for all wo-MEN who become MALE, will enter heaven"

I really hope that's an attempt at some humour !

I didn't want to get into one of these chats, I really didn't. Joseph, if you want to chat further, e-mail through one of the blog admin. I don't mind it being passed on.
The irony of all that you've been saying is that much of it has no application to someone in a men's jail !