Monday, December 11, 2017

The End of an Era


"Living is what Scares me.... Dying is easy"
- Charles Manson


" Its always our own self that we find at the end of a journey. The sooner we find that self, the better"
- Ella Maillart


Ya know... 

I came into this world in the "Summer Of Love" almost literally. I was born in the Spring of 1967. Not three months from when Charlie Manson walked into the Haight Ashbury District for the very first time. I was too young to be a part of what, I always have believed to be, the most exciting years our nation has ever experienced. At least as far as individual freedoms and hope. I have had to settle for spending my life reading about it to settle my curiosity. It seemed that magically almost overnight, society went from black and white to color. Like that scene in Wizard of Oz when Dorothy first opens the door in Munchkin City. Things just became a whole lot more wide open than people were used to thinking were possible. As I got older, I became more and more curious as to what the counter-culture movement was all about? From what I could find in books, records and radio, all roads seemed to lead to California. From the Beach Boys as a tot, and then the Doors records we used to play in basement I grew up in as a boy, to the Greatful Dead shows I used to trade bootlegs of in High School- I have been infatuated with all things Musical, Hippy, and California for most of my life. This fascination has led me to study many movements and cliques of the late 60's period, where it seems all 3 of these subjects were intertwined, and at their peak. Scientology, The Process Church of Final Judgement, The Hog Farm, The Panthers, The Diggers, the Merry Pranksters, The BEL ( TY Patty) - I have delved into all of them. Same with the rock and roll scene. From the earliest clubs on Sunset Strip, and the musician networking in Laurel Canyon, to the music coming out of the Bay area and the creation of Psychedelic Rock and the Jam-band sound. I read every book and listened to every tale I could find. But the one story that stayed with me the most, and has haunted my dreams, after all these years is the story of Helter Skelter and Charles Manson. It is not really a Hippy story in my opinion to be honest, but that it is how I came across it, so it will always be catalogued in my memory with that period of time...

I have read in many places that two events ended the "Spirit of the 60's". One was the Murder of Meredith Hunter in Livermore California, at the Altamont Raceway, during a free Rolling Stones Concert. The other was the Manson murders of Sharon Tate and her friends, followed by the slayings of Leo and Rosemary Labianca the following night. I would argue that although there was plenty of ugliness, drugs, Hippies and bikers involved in both stories to merit a comparison, only one has truly withstood the test of time, as judged by public interest, to really merit consideration as the turning point in a cultural shift. I am quite sure that while 90% of America no longer remembers the events of the Northern California raceway where one tragedy took place late in 1969, almost everyone who has heard the name Manson raised an eye when the Mastermind of another tragedy in the same year passed away last month in a Bakersfield Hospital.

Today, I take a final look at the life of Charles Manson.....

His Youth: 

I wouldn't wish the childhood of Charles Manson on anyone. At the age most of us are wondering what the difference is between a number two pencil and any other pencil, Charlie was struggling to keep food in his mouth, clothes on his back, and a roof over his head. Boy's schools, and reform programs tossing you back and forth, while you are handed from relative to relative, is not a really an enabling or nurturing environment for success. Charlie was dealt a bad hand for sure. He was stealing and breaking minor laws to get by at a very early age, and in many ways he really had no choice. Charles Manson had a tragic youth. Although there was some love, and a few family members who were showing him some type of example, he was pretty much left to himself by the two people who matter the most in all of our upbringings - Mom and Dad. Living on the run, and moving from one crime to another just to get by was a sure recipe for trouble. Trouble is exactly what young Charlie kept finding. Constantly and consistently, until he was finally through his childhood and teenage years, Charlie would spend a good deal of time in confinement. There was not much promise or hope in the earliest years of Manson. It wasn't until he was a grown man that he would get a real taste of freedom and possibility. But when he got it, Ohhhh what a taste he got....





His Big Break and Opportunity:

In march of 1967, Charlie was released from prison and given permission to go to San Fransisco just in time for what was probably the greatest multi-month psychedelic party in the history of our Country. Charlie was able to find housing and a girlfriend, or two, and to play his music with others who were living free and enjoying the vibes of the times. Imagine the man who had just spent so many years shuffling along in the black and white world of prisons and reform schools walking into all of that visual stimulation. Ahhh, The sounds and the colors of The Haight in summer of 1967. Much like the aforementioned Dorothy, this young man from the poor, rural part of nowhere America, must have felt like he was in some new place very far from anything resembling what he used to call home. And it must have been truly amazing. What an incredible time of peace and love. Charlie had an opportunity to understand the human side of people, and all the good that they are capable of. Sharing and kindness were all around him. Charlie had a chance to make anything he wanted of himself, and the possibilities were limitless. He caught a break coming out to this environment. It was the first of a few good things that would happen to him. He was starting to meet people who would support him, and give him friendship and love. It gave him a chance to start fresh and make something positive with his life if he so chose. What he chose instead was to start to gather a group of people and go in another direction....


His Family:

From Mary and Squeakster who were his first, to Sandy, Patricia, and Nancy who were maybe his most loyal. From Ruth and Diane who were too young to know any better, to Gypsy and Leslie who knew exactly what they were getting into. Charlie had an effect for sure on the Girls. For not the love and dedication of the core group of girls, I say this Family never sticks together and none of the rest of it ever goes down. The girls were the glue and bond that kept the whole thing together. With the men I believe it was different. I believe there were a couple who bought the rap such as Brooks, and maybe Bruce and Tex to an extent. However, I think the guys just went along with whatever the message of the day was, in order to get high and laid. In any case, and for whatever reason you want to pick, Charlie was able to put together a core group of 20 people or so who more or less stayed together on the promise of a daily diet of things all people that age were interested in back in the late 60's. Intoxication and the opposite sex. But again, this gave Charlie both the chance to have an easy life and to enjoy the places and times in which he was very fortunate to be living. Even more, during this period he was able to meet some of the real movers and shakers of the moment in his loved profession- music. From Neil Young to Dennis Wilson, Charlie got a rare opportunity to get on the inside. Maybe he just wasn't good enough, or maybe he just didn't take it seriously enough? Who am I to judge today. In any case, when it didn't happen, instead of looking for another way to make himself happy, he decided to take a turn towards a much darker place. And once he went in that direction, the momentum started picking up at an alarming speed.  To some in his circle, this was a sign it was time to leave. Others believed it to be "cool". Those back then learned it was otherwise so, but there are those who believe that Charlies darkness was "cool" to this day. It wasn't just acid and the 60's that caused normal people to buy into Charlies ideas. Charlie has an extended family which somehow morphed from the kids and young adults of the Spahn and Barker ranches, to a small assorted group of cliques of people who still correspond, speak with, and visit with him to this day. In all his adult life, his ability to draw some in never seemed to diminish. It has always been a challenge for me to understand why some could read, and hear, what those who were in the original Family had to say about what life was like with Charles Manson, that would make them wish to become a part of it, or champion what he said and did? Because what started out as a fun group of people taking acid and making love in the sun, at some point became a hardened group of criminals, who stole, assaulted, and murdered people under the leadership, and in most cases direction of, Charles Manson...


 
His Crimes:

The crimes of Charles Manson are many. From his earliest days he was stealing and breaking minor laws. As he got older the crimes got more serious. Even long before the TLB crimes he was raping, pimping, stealing, forging, and doing all types of  criminal behavior as one would expect from a person who spent more than half of their formative years in confinement of some type. There were dozens of people all over the country who were hurt, robbed, or cheated by Charles Manson before he ever played one note on his guitar. But this blog is mostly about one specific set of crimes, so let me address it one last time clearly and finally. Then the rest of you can battle over it for as long as you wish....

TLB:  I do not know for sure what the real motive for the TLB crimes is. And Neither do you.

I suspect strongly that there is some basic element of all of the the motives we fight over here. I think its possible that some of the girls believed they were trying to get Bobby out of Jail. I think Charlie may have had some personal reason for choosing the locations that we may never know. I think Charlie had personal ways to push each individuals buttons to get what he wanted from each specific individual. I also think, he knew there were limits to how far he could push certain people in his Family. And you know what else I think?

I think that Helter Skelter was probably the button he pushed for at least a couple of them.

Bugs lied and embellished, and used every trick in his book to get his guy and make his story. That is true. But, it is also true that there is more physical, testimonial, and circumstantial evidence to support the Helter Skelter motive than there is any other motive put forth by anyone else. Scream as you may, we have been over this so many times. There was just too much evidence of Helter Skelter to simply ignore it. I think Bugs could have worked out an angle over drug burn, or copy-cat, or music business envy and just as easily involved Charlie and sold books. But he chose Helter Skelter as the starting point to build his case, and novel, on. I think there was a simple reason for that. There was more to back up and justify a Helter Skleter motive than anything else. Does not mean it was the only motive, or the real ultimate motive, But it is fair to say it was around and probably played some part for, at least, some of them. And, I have read and listened to a couple of the people involved say that Helter Skelter was the reason they did it, so I think that the actual murderers reasoning for doing what they did is good enough for me.

I think all of this. I do not know. If you want to insult my mother, beat me up, or call me names- then have one last time at it. The one thing I do feel strongly about is that whatever the real reason for the crimes, Charlie was aware of it, and involved with the crimes in as far as deciding the locations and choosing the participants. I am going to end my time studying this case certain that this is the truth. Charlie was as responsible for TLB as any of the actual killers in that aspect. For ten years now I have been reading books, and watching movies and documentaries. I have visited the locales. I have read or listened to almost every parole hearing any one of them has had. If I am sure of any one thing after all of this time, it is that Manson knew exactly what was going on with both the Tate and Labianca murders, and he and he alone called the shots. Many people give many reasons for why Charlie never tried to put on a normal defense, nor took his parole chances seriously. I think its because in his heart he knows that he couldn't defend himself in this case. Charles Manson accepted what he did, even if none of his supporters ever did or will. Manson was many bad things, but not a hypocrite. He went out of his way in the courtroom to show who was in charge and called the shots, how could he ever admit later on that someone else was the boss? Charlie made his famous speech in court and he didn't try to explain that he wasn't involved, he used his moment in the spotlight to try and make people understand his way of thinking and how it justified what happened. It is a real tragedy to me is that Manson has never shown any remorse or sense of responsibility for any of the people he hurt in any of those years. None of the victims of the crimes he was involved in, nor any of the young lives he ruined when he led young kids into harms way, over and over again. He offered no answers or explanations. He just left us with questions. the greatest among them, of course, being- Why?

Senseless Tragedy. To me that will be the real legacy of Charles Manson. But, there are others...

 Legacies:

I wrote a post about this time last year about what I thought the legacies of Manson would be. It was called "Blurred Lines", and although I am not going to rehash the entire post again here, I did reread it myself. Today, I will just summarize....

Manson will leave behind real family. Children and Grandchildren. I hope they can live life free of the shadow the name represents. They lost family and I am sorry for them all for that.

Manson leaves behind an extended family of friends and supporters. People are mourning his loss and celebrating the life he lived in his memory. They will carry on his causes, defend his name, and make sure his side is heard. I do not get you, but again, am sorry for your loss.

Manson will be the subject of much media and TV. We will continue to get movies, specials, documentaries, and books well into the future. This story blends all the essential ingredients. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, celebrity, the wild west, and of course throw it all into a Hollywood locale- add the perfect Evil Bad Guy and you have the crime story gift that just keeps on giving. There is a great line the movie Gladiator when Proximus tells Commodus to " Win the Crowd. You must give them something they have never seen before, and you will win the crowd." Well, Manson gave us all something we had never seen before alright. And it appears to have won over at least some segment of the population who show no signs that their interest in this subject is slowing down.

Manson leaves behind his music. Covered from many established artists, and available all over the internet, Charlies music will stick around for the curious to seek out, and his loyal base to reminisce to. There are a few versions of a couple of Charlies songs that actually stick with me, although to be honest- I like the music Brooks and Paul did in the Hendrickson documentary better than anything Charlie ever did.

Charlie leaves behind his name. Manson will be a word that represents evil long after my time has come I suspect. It has become ingrained in our societal conscious as a representation of murder and darkness. Frankly, I think Tex is a lot more deserving of that distinction, But, Tex was smart enough to get himself tried separately and keep his mouth shut, and Charlie had a fatal desire to turn his trial into a performance which he personally controlled in front of the jury, press and world. So Manson himself has as much to do with that as anyone. Charlie is mostly responsible, through his own actions, for creating his own myth.


 Finally, Charlie leaves behind all of us. The curious. From the TLB Scholars, to the casual lurkers. Charlie leaves behind questions. What was it really like? Why did they really do it? Who really knew what and when? We could go on and on, and most of you certainly will. Like any fascinating tragedy, we are stuck in perpetual limbo trying to understand the understandable. From giggling children smoking pot and having orgies, to blood stained robots, stabbing innocent people to death, and joking about it. How does that happen? To those people, and in that time and place? It just doesn't make sense. Maybe it's not supposed to. If we really knew the truth, what would we do next? Would that be the end? Does it ever end? Only we can decide the end of our own journey's. And I can only speak for myself in regards to this journey. Mine ends with Charlies and Charlies journey is over. This is where I get off.  In the last couple of years we have lost Manson, Hendrickson, and Bugliosi. with each passing of the major players, the chances of learning more real valuable truth grows greater and greater. I sometimes wonder if this isn't going to end up being Charlies last laugh at all of us. That a community of smart people would spend so much time trying to make sense out of a guy who once said that "No sense makes sense".

I have to imagine that Charlie stopped caring about this as much as we do, a very long time ago. I know that for me the death of Charles Manson is very much the end of an era. For the last ten years, I have been watching and waiting for something relevant to shake up the history of the case. Waiting for Charlie, or someone to say something that would finally shed some light on all of the unknowns. Waiting for someone to finally let us all know who was right and who was wrong. Charlie, most importantly of all, could have ended all of our fighting over motive at any time he wished. Just one coherent conversation or letter. But there is no chance for that now. Charles Manson has passed away. Charlie has had his final say on this subject.

And now I have had mine.....


- Your Favorite Saint


89 comments:

starviego said...

St Circumstance said:
"with each passing of the major players, the chances of learning more real valuable truth grows greater and greater."

Don't you mean less and less?

Rob King said...

Major yawn.

AustinAnn74 said...

Well said, St, well said.....

Robert C said...

St. C -- If that's truly your farewell speech then I bid you adieu and appreciate all your past input over the years.

I agree with much of what you said but view some of it from a different perch since I was in my late teens and early 20's during that time.

I don't think Charlie's music will survive the ages. ;-)

Charlie's passing is not the end at all for me. There are still plenty of players out there who could tell us more. In fact, since the trial I never considered Charlie to be an articulate or credible source for anything. I also think we still have an interesting bunch of issues to resolve.

But I do understand your position and perhaps readiness to move on.

Cheers.


Toby King said...

thanks for writing that man... its weird reading something like this when your "just getting started".

Monica said...

Saint, I have been waiting a month for you to comment or post. While I respect your decision, why give CM the power to end an era for you? The end of an era should come when there are answers for the souls that were lost. When all nooks and crannies have been scrubbed. I hope you will come back as another screen name. I will miss you.

Peter said...

Now my sails are fillin'
And the wind is willin'
And I'm as good as gone again.

Fiddy 8 said...

It not so much that Manson died - it's that nothing happened 3 days later. :)

Peter said...

It did happen. He smote Barbara Hoyt from the grave.

Fiddy 8 said...

Smote gets in your eyes.

Matt said...

Smote gets in your eyes


Panamint Patty said...

If St actually quits this time Patty will eat her hat.

Peter said...

"Much like the aforementioned Dorothy, this young man from the poor, rural part of nowhere America, must have felt like he was in some new place very far from anything resembling what he used to call home."

"Not in Kansas anymore." Just go with it.

Peter said...

I'll eat Clem's big goofy Panama hat.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Saint Stephen will remain, all he's lost he shall regain,
Seashore washed by the suds and foam,
Been here so long, he's got to calling it home.

grimtraveller said...

St said...

Bugs lied and embellished

Where exactly ? What did he say to convict Charles Manson that was a lie, that is, a deliberate, knowing, calculated untruth ?

Charles Manson accepted what he did, even if none of his supporters ever did or will

Where and when exactly ? Interest in him specifically would have disappeared long ago were that the case. If anything, Charlie was the poster child for denial.

Charlie made his famous speech in court and he didn't try to explain that he wasn't involved

Really ?

"I have killed no one and I have ordered no one to be killed."

"That is not my responsibility. I don't tell people what to do."

"I have got better sense than to break the law....If I break his law, he puts me back in the grave again. I haven't broken his law yet."

"Mr. Bugliosi is a hard-driving prosecutor, with a polished education. Semantics, words. He is a genius. He has got everything that every lawyer would want to have except one thing: a case. He doesn't have a case."

"I don't recall saying to anyone, 'Go get a knife and kill anyone or anything.' In fact it makes me mad when someone kills snakes or dogs or cats or horses. I don't even like to eat meat because that is how much I am against killing."


I think he went to the nth degree to show he wasn't involved. Not least in the fact that he pleaded 'not guilty' and unlike the penalty phase where his co~defendants who had also pleaded not guilty then unravelled and confessed to murder, he didn't.

for me the death of Charles Manson is very much the end of an era. For the last ten years, I have been watching and waiting for something relevant to shake up the history of the case

I'm not even sure what 'the end of an era' really means. Unless Charlie had gone senile and started ranting what had actually happened, it never even occurred to me that matters were ever going to be any different. If you think about it, even with the others that turned away from Charlie, what, of any earth shaking proportions have we learned in the last 35 years that actually make a real difference to the way we view things ? Possibly Bobby and the Satans. Ironically though, nothing changes for Bobby, Charlie, Susan, Bruce or Mary if one accepts Bobby's tale. And the heavyweight alternative theories even turn up in HS.
The case for me is a bit like discussing a famous football match from long ago like the 1966 world cup final. Was Geoff Hurst's 2nd goal actually a goal ? Did the whole of the ball actually cross the whole of the line ?

grimtraveller said...

Rob King said...

Major yawn

I didn't see that coming ! ๐Ÿ˜‰

candy and nuts said...

Nice post Saint๐Ÿ‘

Bobby said...

St.I will always appreciate you giving me all your Manson Documentaries made by Robert Hendrickson. Why anyone would feel the need to reply to your post with negativity I will never understand, I guess there will always be folks that can say two diss words for every complete post. Whatever, you have my respect regardless of your position the various aspects of the case & the time period. Hope to hear from you in the future and thank you again for your kind deeds and your input on the blogs. peace. Bob.

Donna Nelson said...

Very well written, and all encompassing. I happen to agree Saint.

AstroCreep said...

Only the person can answer to his or her own actions or personal motivation. A motive bombshell could fall out of the sky tomorrow, but Charlie isn’t here to answer for himself nor defend himself. At this point, any bombshell in regards to Charlie’s personal motivations, died with him.

Bugliosi had his own personal agenda and motivations too. While he may have had dollar signs in his eyes, or eyeing a position of higher pay and responsibility, I highly doubt that framing a hippie cult leader for murder was one of his personal motivations.

At this point, it doesn’t really matter why Tex did what he did or any of the others for that matter. There are 48 years of Helter Skelter in the history books and in court records. For anyone to think a few statements or some long lost secret tapes magically appear and that would erase 48 years of popular belief or facts, is naive.

I too, believe there are numerous personal motives but only one overarching family motivation. There are too many facts that support the HS motive.

grimtraveller said...

St said...

Bugs lied

The closest I can find to such a happening comes during the penalty phase when Bugliosi says that he was called as a witness and asked by Maxwell Keith if he'd heard the tape that Leslie had made with Marvin Part or talked about what was in it with him and he says he replied he hadn't. A few pages earlier he'd said he hadn't but suspected Leslie had implicated Charlie in the murders and kind of conned her into admitting it. Which is why I suspect Keith had asked the question. It was, after all, one heck of a long shot and it had paid off.
However 9~11 months later, he told Laurence Merrick and Joan Huntingdon that he knew what Leslie and Pat had told their lawyers, saying "before even the trial I knew everything."
Now, in his & Gentry's book he includes info that tell us that Paul Fitzgerald let slip some things to him and that he in turn had provided Paul with some info to help Pat's case {specifically the door that Winifred Chapman washed on the 5th Aug}. We don't know if his answer to Max Keith's question was perjury though, because Leslie had Ira Reiner and Ronald Hughes as lawyers after Part and both repesented her before the actual trial proper. He could have picked up certain bits of info from either that constitute "before even the trial I knew everything."

Tim A. said...

St.,
You are one of my favorite writers/contributors on here. My hope is you'll just take a short hiatus and return soon.

Peter said...

I love that part of the trial. After Bugliosi tricks her into admitting that she told Part that Charlie came back to the car and told them to kill the La Biancas. Leslie says "Mr. Bugliosi, You are an evil man." And then they take a recess.

Dani_P said...

I always looked forward to reading your posts and getting your insight, St. Your contributions will be missed. I'm holding out hope that you'll be pulled back in at some point. I just wanted to say I've appreciated your input and always looked forward to seeing what you had to say.

Brian G said...

Grim said bla bla bla same thing I always say every one is wrong I'm right.I love VB he was right Helter skelter Helter skelter the Marvin Part tape that couldn't possibly be a good lawyer going along with Sadie's story

Cielodrive.com said...

Brian G said..

"Marvin Part tape that couldn't possibly be a good lawyer going along with Sadie's story"

Only problem with your theory is that this wasn't Sadie's story. Sadie didn't go into Helter Skelter like this. Her publish confession and her grand jury testimony were not about Helter Skelter. She was talking about putting fear into Melcher.

What Van Houten talked about with Part was Helter Skelter and she goes into great detail. None of that had been published anywhere at the time.


grimtraveller said...

Brian G said...

Grim said bla bla bla same thing I always say every one is wrong I'm right.I love VB he was right Helter skelter Helter skelter

Please don't embarrass yourself in public like this, Brian. It's most unbecoming.
Counter what I put forth with facts, not folly. If you want to present reasoned arguments and potent speculation that is at least grounded in fact rather than opinionated fantasy, I'm all ears. That's what the overwhelming majority of contributors do and much of the time, they disagree with me. As a result there are good debates and I for one learn lots, am inspired to check out certain books, interviews, sites, documentaries and aspects of law and my understanding grows.
Oh, and by the way, if I happen to think someone is wrong about something, I'll say so, same way others do so with me. I'll also show why I think so and if possible back it up with sources so anyone can check it out themselves if they so desire.

grimtraveller said...

Brian G said...

same thing I always say

Consistency is important when so much misinformation turns up. And if you actually read what people say and take in what they say, you'll find that much of the time, people speak along the same lines they previously did unless they have changed their minds. You, however, are welcome to do a Bob Dylan '63 and keep blowing in the wind.

I love VB he was right

I happen to think on this particular topic he was right for the most part. Learn to deal with it. It's not hard.
And as the main legal opponent of the Family and joint author of a 600+ page tome on the case, of course I'm going to quote him a lot and follow the threads of some of his arguments. I'm not embarrassed, ashamed or apologetic of the fact that I think he did a good job in this case and got it right.

Helter skelter Helter skelter

One day, you're going to have to contend with the possibility that there once existed a man who saw life somewhat differently to others and followed the diktats of his mind and managed to persuade others to see what he saw and like many figures through history, had others killed in pursuit of those beliefs. The possibility.
I have no problem with that possibility and I have my reasons.

the Marvin Part tape that couldn't possibly be a good lawyer going along with Sadie's story

Of course he could have been a good lawyer just going along with Sadie's story.
Do you consider that he could have genuinely thought she was mad seeing as though you present me as closed minded and therefore must be soooo open to all possibilities, even the ones you don't like or want to accept ?
Do you, Mr Reasonable, consider the possibility that Sadie and Leslie might have just happened to think similar things which is why they said these things privately to their lawyers in conversations that no one was ever supposed to hear ? That some of their stories dovetail because they were both part of the same events ?
Of course, it would be a bit strange that Leslie had her doubts that Sadie really believed it all if she were just going along with her. Be a bit strange, if the idea was to go along with Sadie that she would say that the idea was to kill Gary Hinman if he wouldn't go with them. Or that she was grinning about Gary being killed. I don't recall Sadie saying any of that. Or that she was always sharpening knives and couldn't wait to go out and kill again as she always wanted to be in on the murders. Odd that Sadie should say the opposite, that she told Charlie with her eyes that she didn't want to go into the LaBianca's to kill.
Hey, but you're the man with the info to hand.
Try reading it sometime.

brownrice said...

I agree with Saint that Charlie's death signifies some kinda "end of an era" moment. That said, they happen all the time so I don't really see it as a reason for you to bail, Saint. I've enjoyed your contributions over the years, mate... stick around... it wouldn't be the same without ya.

Brian G said...

Well I certainly don't claim to know more than you but I believe Sadie went into Helter Skelter in depth in her "special" trip to meet bug at her lawers office.Even thought Charlie could hear her from Into.You may not believe this but lawyers gossip and drink together. That was Sadie's story and I have no doubt it got back to Part. Leslie herself testified Part put all that story in her head. That's pretty solid sorry

Brian G said...

Also wasn't Sadie telling the entire jail her Helter Skelter story? Do you know how many jail house snitches lined up to report that nonsense? More than we've ever heard about I'm sure.The Helter Skelter story was leaked everywhere and Part admitted he was angle it for an insanity plea. What did Leslie say?It was a bunch of garbage her lawers had her say on the stand she said this.Right from the horses mouth. They all openly mocked this theory until they wanted parole. That's all I got but it holds water

Brian G said...

So we got cops,inmates District Attorneys to lawyers for Sadie,countless informants, family members visiting Sadie and I'm to believe this didn't get back to Marvin Part?Did you notice in her initial police interview not a peep about this philospy.which I find compelling since if she was that sold on Helter Skelter she couldn't have resisted spewing at least some parts of this philosphy.But nope not even a hint.Actually only a select few really preached Helter Skelter and they were all in bed with VB.Again Leslie testified it was BS her lawyer told her to say.And he made no bones about his motive she's insane.She was very clear that was rehearsed for Part at his suggestion.She testified to this with a straight face while obviously on LSD and declared it utterly ridiculous

AustinAnn74 said...

The Helter Skelter argument again? Skip to 0:58:

https://youtu.be/qNCwQBL_-QI

Matt said...

But, AustinAnn the findings of the court are accepted as fact in parole considerations. If an inmate disputes the court findings then they are much less likely to win release. Those remaining incarcerated will never waver from HS. They can't.


AustinAnn74 said...

You think LVH disputes HS privately, within herself? I think she firmly believes that is why she killed. I don't think she believes it now, but back then, I do. I really do. My opinion, of course.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Another one for the road,
from Box of Rain:
Walk out of any doorway
Feel your way like the day before
Maybe you'll find direction
Around some corner where it's been waiting to meet you

grimtraveller said...

Matt said...

the findings of the court are accepted as fact in parole considerations. If an inmate disputes the court findings then they are much less likely to win release

Yet, at the same time, for a number of years now, there has been an attempt to ascertain whether or not there are aspects of the findings that the inmates are at a variance with. The inmates aren't incarcerated because of HS, they're incarcerated because they committed murder. From time to time someone pops up with the idea that the inmates dispute various findings of the court they aren't given a release date. Yet, the fact remains that they have all disputed certain details in the court findings going right back to at least 1978 and in terms of TLB, only Atkins formally didn't go with HS.

Those remaining incarcerated will never waver from HS. They can't

Pat doesn't say she killed because of it.
The reason they can't waver from it is because it was part of the air they breathed at the time.

Brian G said...

You may not believe this but lawyers gossip and drink together

I already made that point regarding Bugliosi and Fitzgerald and possibly also Hughes and Reiner.
I've seen lawyers yakking together before and after cases and sometimes you'd never think they were adversaries ! It doesn't only happen in "LA Law" and "Silk."

That was Sadie's story and I have no doubt it got back to Part

You'd have to at least show something that demonstrates Caballero and Part were buddies hanging together after a hard days work at the office.

Leslie herself testified Part put all that story in her head. That's pretty solid

Leslie also testified that she was present at and involved in the Hinman murder. Is that solid ? Shit can be damn solid but it remains shit.
Fact is, she lied to high heaven during the penalty phase. The object of the exercise was to absolve Charlie and save him from the death penalty and therefore you have Susan confessing that she stabbed Gary Hinman to death, Pat confessing that she carved "WAR" on Leno LaBianca, both of which the real perps have confessed to. Leslie would naturally, having been subtly maneuvered by Bugliosi into admitting she had plumbed Charlie into the role of orchestrator to Part, have to say that either she was lying or that Part had told her what to say. What else could she say ?
Leslie was a believer. Believers don't care about their own welfare in the light of their belief.
That's why she could speak candidly to Part and lie on the stand.
If Part put all that stuff in her head, how did it get into Paul Watkins' head ? How did it get into Brooks Poston's 3 months before Leslie spoke to Part ?

grimtraveller said...

Brian G said...

I believe Sadie went into Helter Skelter in depth in her "special" trip to meet bug at her lawers office

Based on what ?
For her to have gone into it in depth at the start of December '69 with Bugliosi would mean that his entire chapter 4 of his & Gentry's book regarding the search for the motive, is a total farce and lie. That then discredits the entire book. Love him or hate him, at least give him and Gentry credit for being able to write a book that stacks up the drama chronologically !

Also wasn't Sadie telling the entire jail her HS story?

Was she ?

Do you know how many jail house snitches lined up to report that nonsense?

No. You tell us. How many ?

More than we've ever heard about I'm sure

You're sure ? Be careful what you sign...

The HS story was leaked everywhere and Part admitted he was angle it for an insanity plea

The story wasn't leaked everywhere. But Part certainly heard it from Leslie and thought she was off her rocker. Of course he was going for an insanity plea. Being inexperienced as a lawyer but experienced as a tripper, Ronald Hughes might not have gone that route but Marvin Part could not honestly have thought anything other than this 20 year old talking about experiencing crucifixions and Manson as Christ and the other things she mentioned was insane. 48 years on, many reading that interview would think she was insane and he wanted her saying those things on tape so he could get her committed as incompetent to stand trial.

What did Leslie say?It was a bunch of garbage her lawers had her say on the stand she said this.Right from the horses mouth

Have you never heard of people lying on the stand ? In his own trial Charlie did it when he accused the authorities of arresting Bobby for no reason when he knew the reason !
People lie.

They all openly mocked this theory until they wanted parole

Pat gave rise to it by writing it at a murder scene. Leslie & Susan spoke of it when they were away from Charlie's presence and influence. All 3 {and Linda} told non Family people Charlie was behind it in one way or another. And actually, it was when the prison rehabilitationers started working with them and helped bring them back to their senses that they saw the folly of their ways and yes, wanted parole because they could see they had wasted their lives on idiocy and wanted the chance to make good on what had turned out to be empty ~ except that a set of people had died at their hands on that journey into emptiness.

That's all I got but it holds water

So does a holey bucket. For a minute or two.

grimtraveller said...

Brian G said...

Did you notice in her initial police interview not a peep about this philospy.which I find compelling since if she was that sold on Helter Skelter she couldn't have resisted spewing at least some parts of this philosphy.But nope not even a hint

When she spoke to Mike McGann at the end of November '69 she wasn't a murder suspect.
Besides the fact that she was one when she spoke with Part a month later, the cops were out to get their perp. The lawyer was there to protect their client. Interestingly enough, nothing Leslie said to Marvin Part formed any part of the case against her. It was what she said to Dianne Lake that helped sink her.
She really had no reason to open up to the cops. And even then she let little bits of info slip inadvertently, a trait she showed both in talking with Part and on the stand being questioned.
Incidentally, when Susan first spoke with cops she never said anything about HS either.
Leslie's and Susan's musings on HS act as corroborations but they are very different. Leslie's goes to places not even hinted at by Susan.

Peter said...

Leslie Van Houten did not lie on the stand.

When she spelled her name for the court reporter. After that, pretty much everything that came out of her mouth was a lie.

AstroCreep said...

I’m listening to Helter Skelter again in the mornings during my commute into NYC and paying particular attention to the Helter Skelter motive and when, how, and by who it is introduced. Susan blabbed a little about it, but Al Springer, Danny DeCarlo, Poston, Watkins, Altobelli, Hatami (sp?) Jakobson (sp?) all provided the majority of the HS information. Much of this info came before Bugliosi was involved with the case.

These people, although somehow all connected to the case, are from such diverse ends of the spectrum. For them to have corroborated is beyond far fetched.

FACTS support this motive, not opinion or conjecture.

Peter said...

I think you need to distinguish between Helter Skelter the general societal confusion and revenge fantasies against the rich establishment types. And Helter Skelter the race war that didn't seem to start until March of 69. For instance, Poston who is the first to be interviewed by police in October of 69 talks a lot about the Beatles and Revelations and Helter Skelter, but I don't think he ever mentions the race element.

David said...

Mr. Humphrat said:

"Walk out of any doorway
Feel your way like the day before
Maybe you'll find direction
Around some corner where it's been waiting to meet you"

Response:

"If I knew the way I would take you home."

Brian G said...

Well I sent a respectful reply to you stating that I concede to your knowledge of the case far exceeding mine. But I guess the Col is correct and this blog censors certain people. You can't tell me that no one had heard Sadie's story at that point. She had a meeting with her lawyers at there office which is completely unheard of by the way.Her attorney was present,LE,VB etc. Not to mention all the snitches Sadie told her Helter Skelter fantasy to.As well as corrections officers probably gossiping and " family members that were visiting LVH and Sadie. Now trust me lawyers talk to each other. Part absolutely had knowledge of what story Sadie was going with. It's naive to think otherwise.Notice Leslie made absolutely zero mention of this philosphy in her prior police interview.Zilch. if she was that sold on it she wouldnt have been able to resist at least hinting at it. But no not until Part became involved did this story emerge. What did Leslie testify to? It was a bunch of lies Part coached her through for an insanity plea. She said this. Her Leslie. What more do you want? She fired this lawyer over this and Part fought hard to stay on because he had a tape that proved she was insane beyond science fiction. The agenda was clear here and the defendant herself under oath said it was a bunch of BS.So respectfully I disagree that there was no way Leslie had heard this story

Brian G said...

Well I sent a respectful reply to you stating that I concede to your knowledge of the case far exceeding mine. But I guess the Col is correct and this blog censors certain people. You can't tell me that no one had heard Sadie's story at that point. She had a meeting with her lawyers at there office which is completely unheard of by the way.Her attorney was present,LE,VB etc. Not to mention all the snitches Sadie told her Helter Skelter fantasy to.As well as corrections officers probably gossiping and " family members that were visiting LVH and Sadie. Now trust me lawyers talk to each other. Part absolutely had knowledge of what story Sadie was going with. It's naive to think otherwise.Notice Leslie made absolutely zero mention of this philosphy in her prior police interview.Zilch. if she was that sold on it she wouldnt have been able to resist at least hinting at it. But no not until Part became involved did this story emerge. What did Leslie testify to? It was a bunch of lies Part coached her through for an insanity plea. She said this. Her Leslie. What more do you want? She fired this lawyer over this and Part fought hard to stay on because he had a tape that proved she was insane beyond science fiction. The agenda was clear here and the defendant herself under oath said it was a bunch of BS.So respectfully I disagree that there was no way Leslie had heard this story

Matt said...

Brian G said...
I guess the Col is correct and this blog censors certain people.


Brian, you are correct. Certain peoples' comments are not published, even if they are currently behaving. But, that has been a very small handful of people and after multiple warnings. The only real reasons for the death sentence are things like racism, misogyny or unnecessary profanity or general insanity. Other than that, no one's comments have ever been censored in any way.


Peter said...

Brian said ...

What did Leslie testify to? It was a bunch of lies Part coached her through for an insanity plea. She said this. Her Leslie.

Leslie also testified that it was her and not Mary at Gary Himan's house, that it was Lind's idea to get Bobby out of jail with copy-cat killings, that Linda took them to Cielo Drive because she had been burned for $50 in a drug deal by the people living there, and a whole lot of other bullshit "under oath." (as if that meant anything to these people.)

"She fired this lawyer over this"

She fired her lawyer because Squeeky came to visit her in jail and told her “[w]e think that you ought to have another lawyer [Ira Reiner] … We think that you should contact this man to get him as your lawyer, and we have the money, if you know what I mean.” The reason that Leslie gave the court for the substitution was that in a recent interview on the radio, Part had made a comment on the case that inadvertently admitted she was at the scene of the crime. Part told Judge Dell, that Van Houten said, “I’ll do anything that Charlie wants me to do. And if I do something – if I don’t do something that the Family wants me to do, it will be all over with us.” According to Part, “[s]he doesn’t care whether she is tried together or gets the gas chamber, but she just wants to be with the Family. That’s what conflicts.”

The simple fact is that the Family wanted Part out because he had already taken steps to defend Leslie by seeking to have her interviewed by doctors and indicating that he saw "several areas" where her defense would conflict with Manson's.


Peter said...

General Insanity must by Colonel Scott's CO.

Matt said...

Not publicly traded...



David said...

Brian G said: "Notice Leslie made absolutely zero mention of this philosphy in her prior police interview.Zilch."

I wouldn't put much stock in that versus talking to Part. We tell our clients when they first come to see us about the attorney-client privilege if we believe they may be hesitant to say something because of fear it 'gets out'. By contrast Manson had 'groomed' them not to 'snitch' to the police or trust them.

Lawyers gossip: ah.....not as you suggest. Would Part potentially say to Caballero 'I don't know about your gal by mine is bat shit crazy' possibly, 'yes'. But many times what we 'share' about cases 'off the record' is designed to set the stage for what we will be bringing up later or to feel out 'settlement' options. And frequently it is strategic.

So could I see Part say to VB 'You need to know Vince my gal is bat shit crazy. She thinks she has wings and is an elf.' - 'yes'. If VB trusts me from experience he might accept what I say as accurate and then VB might say 'Will you allow my expert to talk to her?' That might lead to some off the record discussions about a deal. 'I'll do that if you......"

But would Part spell out the HS motive or word for word what is on that tape? to VB or Caballero? 'Never'.

Brian G said...

I've always wondered if the intention was to start a race war it would have been done very easily in the late 60s by killing a couple black family's.That would have done it. How do you start a race war by a bunch of whites killing a bunch of whites? LMAO!Very weak. Now if Tex had gutted a pregnant black lady and all her friends and a middle aged couple that were black and carved war in there chest I could very easily see Watts burning again retalations etc.But somehow whites killing whites was supposed to get blacks all worked up? Huh? Thank God Tex's mom called so this race war was no longer important." Hey Charlie about this race war my mom called so we're going to have to just call the whole thing off sorry bud". Yea that makes sense.VB had a job to do and that was to protect the Hollywood elite and probably the folgers.i believe he covered up alot in the sirhan case to but I maybe mistaken.These people knew each other they all ran in the same circles hanging at Casses coincidence? I don't think Polanski was looked at enough.Also which star said no one in LA was surprised by these murders? Why? They all knew the victims were going to be killed in a "race war". Odd

Brian G said...

I've always wondered if the intention was to start a race war it would have been done very easily in the late 60s by killing a couple black family's.That would have done it. How do you start a race war by a bunch of whites killing a bunch of whites? LMAO!Very weak. Now if Tex had gutted a pregnant black lady and all her friends and a middle aged couple that were black and carved war in there chest I could very easily see Watts burning again retalations etc.But somehow whites killing whites was supposed to get blacks all worked up? Huh? Thank God Tex's mom called so this race war was no longer important." Hey Charlie about this race war my mom called so we're going to have to just call the whole thing off sorry bud". Yea that makes sense.VB had a job to do and that was to protect the Hollywood elite and probably the folgers.i believe he covered up alot in the sirhan case to but I maybe mistaken.These people knew each other they all ran in the same circles hanging at Casses coincidence? I don't think Polanski was looked at enough.Also which star said no one in LA was surprised by these murders? Why? They all knew the victims were going to be killed in a "race war". Odd

Brian G said...

Manson may have groomed them but that sure didn't stop Leslie from giving out some very damaging info in that interview so sorry that don't hold water. I have been in trouble before sir so I've also seen a side of the legal system. Does it compare to your degree? Absolutely not. But let me say I have been privy to lawyers sharing info with each other before discovery it happens and you no that. Again Leslie fired this attorney and testified it was all Part. Good for him that was excellent legal representation. Leslie was to dumb to realize

AstroCreep said...

Right- both Danny DeCarlo and Al Springer introduce the race aspect and also the Nazi wish for a supreme race thing. Rommel, the armed dune buggies, the armed overwatch positions, the National Geographic mags they discovered in the bus, (and many other facts) all being supporting evidence of the supreme race/race war thing. Corroborated by taped interviews (Poston/Watkins) that happened long before Bugliosi was involved in the case.

So in all of these degrees of separation with those individuals having contact with the family, this thread is prevalent throughout.

My bigger point is- no other motive theory provided by anyone has all of the supporting evidence that HS does. It’s supported by facts-

Brian G said...

Yes I apologize I hadn't refreshed my browser. That on me. I was wrong

Brian G said...

I hear you. I hear all of you. I just think the majority refuse to budge from the Novel which means fiction. You all may be right but I think it's naive to believe this race war nonsense. Personally. To each there own. I think it's deeper than copy cat. But it's shocking how fast people dismiss Mr. Stimpson a man who has more acsess to the truth than anyone.

Matt said...

No worries, Brian...


Peter said...

Access to the Family DOES NOT equal access to the truth. If anything, it means the opposite.

Brian G said...

I got a story for you. I think you may appreciate.Years ago I was called as a witness. I didn't get on the stand before lunch so at the lunch break I went to a cafe by the courthouse we're I sat and watched the DA my friends attorney and a few other lawyers not involved in the case have lunch. The conversation was eye opening to say the least.They absolutely shared info about the case made several jokes about it and the real shocker for me and I know I'm naive was how they discussed other cases as a group.Like trading baseball cards. "Ok I'll agree to probation for Stevens if you get Mr Scott to agree to a 5year plea.So from my limited experience yes lawyers talk out of class if you will

Cielodrive.com said...

Brian G...

Again, the problem with your theory is that you are relying on what Leslie said during the penalty phase regarding the Part recording. As others have pointed out, much of what Leslie stated at that time were blatant lies.

In the instant case..
Q: In other words, you told him that what you told Mr. Part was not the truth; is that correct?

A: I told him what Sadie had said in the papers, but I put myself where Sadie had put me.

Q: In other words, you stated, or you said, substantially the same as Sadie said; is that right?

A: Identical

She also talks about asking Part for the Grand Jury transcript to read it.

The problem with all of this is, Susan Atkins DID NOT SAY THIS STUFF!!! Read the statements from Howard and Graham, the interview Atkins did with Caballero and Caruso, the Grand Jury and her LA times article....None of this has anything to do with Helter Skelter. Zero mention of the Beatles, race war, death valley, revelations. Dismiss Helter Skelter as the motive for the killings all you want, dismiss the Part tape all you want. But don't tell me all of this came from Atkins. There's no record of her talking about this stuff.


Ronnie Howard LAPD interview 11/25/69

Virginia Graham LAPD interview 11/26/69

Richard Caballero and Paul Caruso interview of Susan Atkins 12/1/69

Grand Jury 12/5/69 & 12/8/69

Susan Atkins Story of 2 Nights of Murder 12/14/69

Peter said...

Well, I'm certainly convinced by that line of reasoning.

David said...

Brian G said: "I see no reason someone George has had some sort of relationship with for decades to mislead him."

Let me understand this, you see no reason why Charles Manson would mislead someone close to him?


[Aside]

Peter,

From the Hinman trial- Kanarek refers to Binder (witness) as 'Mr. Shea' about a dozen times, finally:

"Kanarek: At the time you wrote that check, Mrs. Shea had left Las Vegas; is that correct Mr. Shea?
Witness: I am not Mr. Shea and you are not F. Lee Bailey. My name is Binder."

Peter said...

Poor Irving.

Rick C said...

And thank God that era has ended; if you mean the inclusion of Charles Manson made this world better. What did this man add to anyone or anything of a positive nature? Not a damn thing.

Panamint Patty said...

Manson was Patty's matchmaker in a weird way, so she'll give him that.

Mr. Humphrat said...

David said:
"If I knew the way I would take you home."

response:
Now my sails are fillin' and the wind is willin'
And I'm as good as gone again

I'm still walkin', so I'm sure that I can dance
Just a Saint of Circumstance, just a tiger in a trance
And the rain fallin' down, well, you never know, just don't know
Listen, sure don't know what I going for, but I'm gonna go for it for sure

Brian G said...

Ok so she's a liar. But the Part tape is gospel? She was obviously tripping when she testified and all the questions about her family , boyfriend,commune,beating her adopted sisters and the dealings with Part seemed sincere. She then got hostile talking about the crimes said she was at Hinman an several lies. I think she told the truth about Part. There was really no benefit in lying about that. It's an opinion I don't need to be ridiculed I respect that you think she lied. All good

Brian G said...

Thanks I'm reviewing this information. It's nice to have someone rationally provide material to review.Class act and incredible site you have.By far the most informative site on the subject.Not knocking this site this is the best for blogging bit for research/archives outstanding

grimtraveller said...

Brian G said...

You can't tell me that no one had heard Sadie's story at that point

If you mean the point at which Leslie made the tape, then no one is saying no one had heard her story. The Grand Jury had delivered indictments by then. The 2 nights of murder story was in the papers by then. Was HS as laid out by Leslie in either her Caballero tape, the Grand Jury testimony or the newspaper story ? No, it was not.

She had a meeting with her lawyers at there office which is completely unheard of by the way.Her attorney was present,LE,VB etc

Yeah, with her lawyer. Marvin Part wasn't there. I don't even think he was Leslie's man at the start of December, I think Donald Barnett was.


Not to mention all the snitches Sadie told her HS fantasy to

She spoke of the murders to, principally, Virginia Graham & Ronnie Howard. In '71 Nancy Jordon came out and told Laurence Merrick that Sadie had told her she'd killed Sharon Tate. It appears in Robert Hendrickson's book "Death to pigs" ~ but there was nothing about HS told to her. And neither Graham nor Howard understood HS fully. They picked up snippets but were far more rapt with the tales of murder. Comparing what they picked up from Sadie in their police interviews with Leslie's salvo to Part is like comparing an embryo with an old age pensioner. She mentioned bits and pieces to people in jail like Kit Fletcher and Roseanne Walker but HS ?

As well as corrections officers probably gossiping and family members that were visiting LVH and Sadie

I don't dispute that corrections officers and Police could've been talking among themselves, but the focus was on "bloody hell, Sharon Tate's killer !" not on HS, the significance of which, no one had grasped at that time. Why do you think Bugliosi gets slated for the HS theory if it was common knowledge in '69 ? He even faced opposition for it from his lead prosecutor.

Part absolutely had knowledge of what story Sadie was going with. It's naive to think otherwise

Why would Leslie need Part to fill her head with Sadie's story when she had been there herself ? And did you know that in her tape made with Caballero, she does not mention HS once, except to say that it was written on the fridge.

grimtraveller said...

Brian G said...

But no not until Part became involved did this story emerge

Because there was no need to spill the beans prior to that point. They were told by Charlie not to give up anything to the authorities ~ and Susan didn't. She told her story to some cellmates that she hadn't expected to go to LE with.

What did Leslie testify to? It was a bunch of lies Part coached her through for an insanity plea

You give Part way too much credit for inventing in a couple of sessions what Charlie had taken 18 months to inculcate. What Leslie said chimed with so many different people, including people like Al Springer, Ronnie Howard, Virginia Graham and Greg Jacobson that weren't even in the Family and people like Brooks Poston, Paul Watkins and years later, Juanita Wildbush, who had left the Family.

She said this. Her Leslie

Yes. During the penalty phase when she was lying for Monrovia. She could have gotten Olympic gold with that performance.

What more do you want?

Context.

She fired this lawyer over this and Part fought hard to stay on because he had a tape that proved she was insane beyond science fiction

Let's take this once more.
Marvin Part becomes Leslie's court appointed lawyer.
Part talks to Leslie. In talking to her, she tells him things that are too incredible and he concludes that she should not be standing trial if she genuinely thinks these things because she's gone clear.
He says that he is going to make a tape so that the Judge can hear it and agree that she can't go on trial. Part, having listened and talked to Leslie, knows what sort of questions to ask to elicit the full range of what he considers to be her insane state of mind.
Leslie agrees.
They make the tape. In the tape he makes mention of things they've talked about before.
Leslie is happy to leave things with Part until Squeaky and Gypsy start running Charlie messages to her and the shutters come down. Exactly the same thing happened with Pat. Pat was scared of Charlie and was afraid he'd find and kill her. She was fighting extradition until she was found in Mobile and persuaded to come to LA to engage in a joint defence.
Exactly the same thing happened to Susan. She recanted her testimony. Charlie was effective in bulldozing those 3. It sank them.
Anyway, Leslie fires Part, takes on nothing but Charlie lawyers, lies on the stand....and is still in prison.

The agenda was clear here and the defendant herself under oath said it was a bunch of BS

The defendant under oath pleaded not guilty !
Then said she was involved in a murder she wasn't.
Like I said earlier, people lie.

grimtraveller said...

Brian G said...

I've always wondered if the intention was to start a race war it would have been done very easily in the late 60s by killing a couple black family's. How do you start a race war by a bunch of whites killing a bunch of whites? LMAO!Very weak

There's no logical accounting for what goes on in the mind of another person. Saying "this is how it should have happened" doesn't really go anywhere. It's like saying "how can you think that person is beautiful ?" when you don't.
Fights, and by extension, wars, begin in all manner of ways. Was it daft ? Yes. Was it understandable ? If you think deeply about Charles Manon and the USA, very.

Now if Tex had gutted a pregnant black lady and all her friends and a middle aged couple that were black and carved war in there chest I could very easily see Watts burning again retalations etc. But somehow whites killing whites was supposed to get blacks all worked up?

But you are not the person that had the visions in your mind so you're not really in a position to dictate how everything should have gone.

i believe he covered up alot in the sirhan case to but I maybe mistaken

I have a Penthouse interview that he does on this and I'm happy to send you a copy so you can check that for yourself.

I don't think Polanski was looked at enough

Do you know something hot that we don't ?

Also which star said no one in LA was surprised by these murders? Why?

The fact that celebs weren't surprised by the murders hardly makes their commission to start the process of America's downfall a false one.

grimtraveller said...

Rick C said...

if you mean the inclusion of Charles Manson made this world better. What did this man add to anyone or anything of a positive nature? Not a damn thing

I don't think that's true of him. He did do some positive things. Just not enough or consistently.

Peter said...

I'm not so sure that the fear was that Charlie would some how get to them and harm them as it was that they would be ostracized from the Family.

Peter said...

Also. Something being overlooked is that the psychologolists did listen to the tapes and the court ultimately ruled that Leslie was competent to stand trial.

beauders said...

Manson got DeDe Lansbury off heroin, don't know if it counts for much, but this is something good he did. He also warned girls off the Haight because of the violence, and threw his buddies guns and knives off the Golden Gate Bridge so violence would not come from them.

St Circumstance said...

Hey All. Heading out of town for the Holidays! Just wanted to take one final minute to say goodbye and thanks...

For all of the comments good and bad. Thanks for reading and participating :)

To all of the people who have been so nice to me- I really appreciated the kind words- it meant alot:)

To Patty, Ann, Deb and Dreath for letting me be a part of the blog and a pseudo- member of the family :)

To the Col- meeting you made every second of it all worthwhile. It was the highlight of my experience on this blog and with this community.

Most of all to Matt- You sent me the link and the invitation to, what would become this blog lol, that got it all started. A rare thing online- you have been an amazing friend. Thank you for everything :)


Try not to kill each other over this stuff. It was a sick, disgusting murder that happened a long time ago. Blurring the lines is o.k. as long as you do not cross the line. I hope you all stay on the right side of your line :) And remember, "when you look too long into the abyss- the abyss starts to look back into you"

or something like that lol ( even I always thought those quotes were silly)

Happy Holidays, and New Years!! I hope to you all have an amazing Holiday season and that 2018 is your Year!!

-James



Bobby said...

Wow , St. You didn't start your distinguished carrier here on this site. I think you owe some one else an equal tribute and thanks especially if you are really done. I meant every word of my thanks to you. You need to address another blog and that owner then go enjoy your holidays. Bob

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

This showed up in my youtube recommendations list. Interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1k107Szw_w

Fiddy 8 said...

Rick C said:

::::::::::::::::::And thank God that era has ended; if you mean the inclusion of Charles Manson made this world better. What did this man add to anyone or anything of a positive nature? Not a damn thing.:::::::::::::::

---------------------------------------

Tony Montana said:

::::::::What you lookin' at? You all a bunch of fuckin' assholes. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be. You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fuckin' fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth. Even when I lie. So say good night to the bad guy! Come on. The last time you gonna see a bad guy like this again, let me tell you. Come on. Make way for the bad guy.::::::::::

St Circumstance said...

Hey Bobby. One last final comment for you because I always really liked you. I am on my way out and really can't spend any more time on this but didn't want to ignore you.

Yes this was my first site. This site evolved from Evil Liz and Matt invited me there from the Col site. I wrote my first post called Saints and Demons for Matt. I did contribute on a couple of other sites and appreciate Thelma and Louise, Cats Cradle , LSB3 and the others who let me participate as well. I didn't want to turn my post into a tribute to myself and go crazy so I only mentioned the few relevant people on this site as it has been the only one I have been involved with for several years. I hope that is better and you or no one is offended. Never my intention. I am grateful for all I encountered. The positive people motivated me and the negative people challenged me. It's all good and Im grateful to have had a chance to compare notes with you all. Peace and happy holidays!

David said...

Saint,

I admit I waited to post this until today and don't expect a response.

I, for one, will be very sad to see you go. Unlike my 'evidentiary' posts your posts always had a 'human' or even 'editorial' quality to them. You made me think. You cared less about the technicalities of LVH's parole than whether she SHOULD be paroled, etc.

I can honestly say it was one of your posts- way back there- that caused me to buck up, swallow my fear and send a post to Matt.

In conclusion I will say only this: Well done sir! Well done!

And ...Happy Holidays to you and yours.

Dreath

Doug Smith said...

St

As someone who only recently joined into the active conversation here - but have followed on/off for a few years - thank you for your contributions to this (and other) sites. Also, for being objective and resilient enough to endure for so long.

I too hope to see you pop in on occasion. Most of all though, I want you to do what's best for you - and, to enjoy whatever that may be.

Cheers

Doug

xreles said...

Sorry to see you go Saint. I could always count on you and will remember you most for railing against the Girls & Charlie for “singing and dancing and otherwise acting a fool in court and in the hallways in front of the victims’ families. It always made me nod in approval and laugh.

So take care & here’s a little quote from Charlie about reaching the end of the line for you…




All the songs, have been sung. And all the saints, have been hung. The wars and cries have been wailed. And all the people have been jailed
Charles Manson ~ Eyes of a Dreamer

Fiddy 8 said...

It's all the same song

Fiddy 8 said...
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Fiddy 8 said...
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MacyGrant said...

Things are actually better now, that Manson is dead. They were not allowing him to have any interviewers or contact the press anyway, and now one can enjoy without feeling guilty. I would have never posted here while Manson was still alive.

grimtraveller said...

MacyGrant said...

I would have never posted here while Manson was still alive

Why ?