Monday, October 8, 2018

Reflexion by Lynette Fromme; Part Four: pp. 253 - 365

Sorry for the delay in getting this one to you, I've been otherwise distracted. But, the "shit Matt didn't know, piqued his interest or cracked him up" tour continues with the large section of the book dealing with 1969 and Spahn Ranch. This is the last section and the largest so I'll cover it over two posts.

-----------

Bo Rosenberg came to the Family after she stayed with the group of hippies at Spahn in the back house but elected not to go with them when they were gifted by Manson with The Black Bus to go to Oregon.

I love Lynette's description of Watson when meeting him at Dennis' house. Nothing like I've heard before:
I asked Charles about his businesses. "Wigs," he said. He sold hairpieces from a beach house in Malibu. He didn't tell me that he supplemented his income by dealing marijuana and lightweight drugs. I figured the wig business would be cut short. He was so personable he could have sold homes, cars, magazines, or anything but wigs on southern California beaches. He was politely aggressive, interested in girls, and ultra confident, even with the awe shucks guffaw. He wore the thrill of victory like wings on his head. This Hollywood he'd always heard about was the destination of dreams - not that he wanted to be a celebrity. Just being in the same house with one was not much short of meeting God.


Brooks was brought to Spahn by Dean on one of his trips to court in Mendocino. Huh...

Regarding Manson as a mastermind leader:
In less than two years, county prosecutors would indict Charlie as a 'mastermind' and 'dictator,' but Charlie didn't dictate by ordering or making rules. Most of us had had enough rules made by people who didn't follow them. He ruled by example. He still had the sharpest eyes and ears, and the most experience of anyone at the back of The Ranch. In the circle at night, we treated him as a kind of shaman, giving him sound space in exchange for his insights. They emerged not in sermons or elevated speeches, but in extemporary, often musical, response. And when his humor crept up on us, or we were amazed, or enlightened, or thrilled by what he said, he shrugged off personal attachment to the words. Once he said, just reflect thought as it goes by in the air? He could send a dart through the eye of an ego, yet his ability to target disease while leaving healthy thoughts and behaviors strengthened drew people to him. I never considered then that he had a unique and different relationship with each person, and only later did I learn others' interpretations of what he said. What I witnessed of his interactions were fostering discovery of the natural world, and a human unity I'd never seen or experienced. His leadership qualities were an unspoken fact, but, if you asked him, he was just living the time of his life.
She mentions Family member Chuck Grey (never heard of that one).

Lynette denies that she was "assigned" to George, that all the girls cleaned, cooked and kept him company.

When Clem crashed Dennis' Ferrari, Charlie gave him Juanita's camper van to "Go see the Mendocino coast and the redwoods up north." (he didn't go). That made me laugh heartily for reasons unknown. The camper probably looked something like this:


Her description of TJ had me gasping for air:
TJ was a sometimes visitor, older than most of us, balding, and missing front teeth for which he had loose replacements. He had already been through the military (demolitions), marriage and divorce (demolitions). 
Cappy was short for "Capistrano from Santa Susano".

This tidbit about The Fountain interested me:
We visited The Fountain of the World several times before offering our help with their programs and community charities in exchange for a safe place for Mary and Sunstone to stay. Katie soon joined them, specifically to work, and she wound up managing their kitchen.
Regarding The Bug's "LSD mind control":
In the two years I'd seen Charlie take psychedelics, he was the sanest, most stable person in any group. His prosecutor would speculate, and then claim as fact that Charlie issued LSD to each of us, while secretly refraining from taking it so he could program and control us. We took acid separately and together so whoever had the stash "issued" it, and I don't think Charlie's ability to program and control would've been hindered by LSD, but here is what he said: "Spirit is a power that can't be controlled. I don't move it. The two ways to lose it are when I try to use it, and when I fear and fight against it." 
Right after this, she describes a group acid trip on stronger than normal A that they afterwards referred to as "The Freak Out". I howled laughing through every bit of it. I won't ruin it for you. The book was worth every word just for these few pages.

The aforementioned Chuck Grey was arrested for taking an older woman at knifepoint on Santa Susana Pass and raping her. Lynette couldn't wrap her head around it based on "his good looks and access to girls." After being driven away in a squad car he was never seen again.

George Spahn had a wife, still living at the time the Family was on the ranch. She stopped by briefly a few times. George said she didn't want to live on the ranch. I did not know that.

During their winter months at Barker Ranch they made the acquaintance of an astrophysicist engineer named Clint Anderson and his wife Stella who lived "on a distant dark hill". Charlie and Clem were fond of them. From (what I assume is) a letter from Clem:
I used to squat on Clint Anderson's kitchen floor while he ran down to me universal laws - celestial concepts that my mind could barely grasp. I was intoxicated with the wine of his wisdom and knowledge. He was gently humble, as if plugged into and talking for the whole magnificant (sp) universe. I walked out of his little desert cottage with the top of my head gone and my brain touching the heavens. One time when I was leaving the Andersons, after bringing them a heap of goodies and supplies, they told me that if ever I feel a touch like a spring breeze on my shoulder, and soft whisperings, to know that it's them in the spirit visiting me. I've felt those feelings several times through the years, and one time found out that Clint had passed. They were magical beings.
Lynette insinuates that in late 1968, Sadie was off: "The radio has been telling me to do things!"

“Karate Dave” is mentioned here and there throughout the book but this bit was interesting to me:
Charlie was driving the three-wheeler around The Valley one night with three of us girls in the back when, at a stoplight, we met Karate Dave on a rust-dusted Indian motorcycle - a nice old bike. Dave wasn't bad looking either. He was atypically clean-cut, blond, and masculine, and he came home with us after a few more stoplights. Charlie called him Karate Dave after learning he had a black belt. 
The problem with Dave was that he wasn't done rebelling against authority figures. He was a military AWOL, and if he can be believed, he'd escaped the police twice after being handcuffed. Charlie told me that in order to respect his peers Dave needed to be beaten at his art and none of our guys was trained in the marshal arts. Charlie said this to him: "Challenge yourself, man, compete with yourself. You got more than twenty acres of hills, caves, and boulders to master. Can you run through here at night without breaking your foot or falling on your face? You can knock people down, but can you pass through a place without leaving a trace that you were there? With-out disturbing a dog or a pebble? Challenge yourself, Man." Dave had a good false ID but he was another person who had to avoid the police.
When Sandy became pregnant by Bobby everyone was surprised because "their relationship wasn't exactly dovey".

On why they left Spahn Ranch for The Yellow Submarine:
Then [George Spahn] told me something that stung, and I didn’t repeat it to anyone. After asking me how we got our money when so many of the men did not have jobs, he let on that he thought Charlie was foolish for giving money away. 
"Was he foolish for giving it to you? I asked."  
He said, "Yes." 
This time I was furious. I yelled, "Well, do you want us to leave"? And he was so stubborn, and so mad, he said yes. 
We took three hours leaving, cleaning, packing, and petting the dogs, and as the 3-wheeler roared out of the drive with the last of us, the wind hit my face and I saw the whole crazy, crooked ranch in the wet bolts of color, and it felt like I had lost my world.
On Little Patty who she describes as a tough east coast girl (and a bit woman on woman lovemaking):
... one day as we were about to pass in the hallway, she approached me with that smile and spoke to me with that voice, and before I understood her intention, she pressed herself into me, tenderly kissing my mouth. I smiled into her eyes, shook my head, and Little Patty graciously understood. Although the guys being fewer, received the attention of more than one woman, and we women were comfortably physically affectionate, none of us who lived together demonstrated a desire for homosexuality. Not to my knowledge.
On the White Album:
We acknowledged the genius that had created the album, but we did not believe that the Beatles were talking to us, unless you included us in the soul of the world. The album was just interesting.
They missed the ranch. George missed them. They agreed to come back to Spahn. George wasn't thrilled about the men, but they worked out a deal anyway. During this period they expected that violence would come to the cities so they began hoarding staples for when the time came where going shopping would become impossible...

Danny DeCarlo appears at this point with his large gun collection. He made ammo himself. This is when the bikers began appearing but none stayed. Just DDD.




62 comments:

Whiterabbit69 said...

This is fascinating. Thank you for sharing. I'm going to have to order a copy of this book. I've been seeing so many people mention it and it seems like a real page-turner.

Orwhut said...

Chuck Grey was taken away by the police and never seen again. That might be a good way to rescue a plant. I wonder if Chuck has a trial or prison record?

brownrice said...

Good post, Matt... once again. Looking forward to your final review. There's no doubt she has her own particular biases and blind spots (as do we all) but her descriptions of the various participants and events in this saga all strike me as far more believable than most other accounts I've ever read. I'd say it's obligatory to read it if you're genuinely interested in this case.

AstroCreep said...

Squeaky (the weapon brandishing buzzcut attempted presidential assasin) said....

“In the two years I’d seen Charlie take psychedelics, he was the sanest, most stable person in any group”

Um, sure thing. This coming from the weapon brandishing buzzcut attempted presidential assasin means so much. Thanks Squeaky!

I find contradiction in pretty much every example you’ve selected, Matt. Charlie’s not the ‘mastermind’ but she’s ‘stung’ by Gearge thinking he’s stupid for giving George money. To the point she doesn’t mention it to anyone. Charlie’s not the ‘mastermind’ but he’s the one that challenges Karate Dave to run barefoot thru the ranch at night. Charlie’s not the ‘mastermind’ but it’s he who pays George, not someone else. Etc etc.

And it’s Danny’s fault the weapons show up at the ranch- got it!

Thanks for posting, Matt. I’m not being critical of your post, just have a hard time taking her seriously given her proven track record. This appears to be her validating her life choices. If it wasn’t for a bunch of dead people, it woulda been a swell time, geeee!

DebS said...

Matt said in his post-

George Spahn had a wife, still living at the time the Family was on the ranch. She stopped by briefly a few times. George said she didn't want to live on the ranch. I did not know that.
------

Yes, George and Martha had an amiable separation. She did not want a divorce because she was Catholic. George would make weekly visits with her in the first few years he had Spahn Ranch. She would visit him at the ranch from time to time.

At age 30 George was still single. He bought a farm in Pennsylvania and ran an advertisement for a housekeeper and cook. Martha answered that ad. Martha was widowed with a daughter, Margaret. Her husband had been a race car driver and was killed in a car accident.

George and Martha got along so well that they started having children. It wasn't until after Martha had given birth to three more daughters and then finally a son that they got married. They married in Manhattan, New York June 24 1924. They had 10 children together, the first seven were born in Pennsylvania and the last three in California.

Peter said...

Interesting kind of Catholic.

Doug Smith said...

Martha Virginia Greenholtz Spahn

DebS said...

Yes, Doug. Her previous married last name was Lynn.

Matthew Record said...

I found that in this last chapter of the book that Lynette seemed to distance herself from what the family was doing and was there to care for George. She put herself on the outer rim and seemed to have no idea of the militant change the family had taken and just remained the loving caring flower child. However, in the documentary a couple years later, she is talking about how to use knives and rifles. It just doesn't add up to me. I think she is downplaying her part in the violent spiral the family took. But that being said, I love the way she writes and am reading it for the second time.

Dan S said...

Lbj was the true master mind with G Ford being the shill for the warren commission, legitimizing the murder of JFK and paving the way for the war mongers to murder millions

Whiterabbit69 said...

It's definitely weird. I don't believe for a second that she was oblivious to the downward spiral of the family. Like you said - she was right there after the hell went down and she's sitting there wielding rifles and bayonets & talking about how savage murder is necessary for survival....spewing all that "these children are a reflection of their times and turmoil" diatribe. I can appreciate her contributing her memories though. However skewed or self-serving they potentially may be. On a more understanding note - it could be that after spending so much time away from society - she has tried to reconcile her past in her own mind and maybe she believes everything she's written. I guess only she really knows.

Gorodish said...

Matt wrote :

She mentions Family member Chuck Grey (never heard of that one).

In the Ella Jo Bailey interview on cielodrive.com, at the beginning of the interview, the detective mentions a Chuck Green (or Grey...the audio is rough on this one), and Ella replies "I know him as Chuck Green (or Grey)". Maybe the same guy ?

grimtraveller said...

brownrice said...

There's no doubt she has her own particular biases and blind spots

You're not joking mate !
Squeaky's though seem to stand out beyond the pier though, which gives rise to being forced to contrast with what we already know or have heard.
One that really stands out to me is not her saying that the Family didn't start to refer to the police as pigs until Linda arrived at the ranch, but her throwing in that Bobby was the father of her 2nd kid.
Charlie tried to fight the law with ignorance....and lost.
Pat tried to fight the evidence of her fingerprint with belligerence and ignorance....and lost.
Leslie tried to fight her conviction with spinsanity....and lost.
Tex tried to fight justice with a refusal to acknowledge being sane in responsibility for what he'd done....and lost.
Squeaky tried to sully Linda's name with a natural impossiblilty....and lost.
Sometimes you can fight objective evidence.
But you can't fight biology.

starviego said...

Gorodish said...
"In the Ella Jo Bailey interview on cielodrive.com, at the beginning of the interview, the detective mentions a Chuck Green "


Another reference to a Chuck Green by Brooks Poston:

cielodrive.com/charles-tex-watson-trial-08-25-71-pm.php#bp
Brooks Poston interview:
A: I went back to Barker's Ranch in the desert. ...
Q: Where did the remainder go?
A: I understand they went to the Spahn's Ranch and that Chuck Green and Clem and someone else was supposed to stay at the Canoga Park house and keep it ...

And Krenny mentions a "Billy Green":

www.cielodrive.com/patricia-krenwinkel-parole-hearing-2016.php
INMATE KRENWINKEL: Billy Green -- he had done time with Manson in TI... ...he(Manson) had to go visit his parole officer in Washington, which we did.... And prior to that, but prior to even leaving with Manson, I talked to Billy Green and he had said..

DebS said...

Chuck Green was the alias of Charles Allen Beard born Dec. 31 1951 in Sacramento CA. His mother's maiden name was Brown. Don't know about a Billy Green.

I suppose that it's possible Lynette simply forgot which color name Beard was using for an alias.

grimtraveller said...

Billy Green is the guy at whose place Pat first met Charlie according to Pat. An old jailmate of Charlie's that happened to be her sister Charlene's friend.

JUSTCONFUSED said...

Long time lurker....thank you for the past and present posts.I definitely want to read this book.And thank you to everyones great posts that have kept me interested in this blog.Outstanding is the only word that comes to mind.

curmudgeon said...

Sandy has two kids? I thought she only had one? If Bobby got her pregnant, what happened to that baby?

Octopussys Garden said...

I think Grim was referring to linda's 2nd child.

Orwhut said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Orwhut said...

It seems to me that Bobby fathered more children by Manson girls than all of the other guys at the ranch combined. Does anyone have an accurate count?

cielodrivecom said...

Curmudgeon, Ivan is Bobby’s son

DebS said...

Orwhut, Bobby fathered a daughter each by Gayle and Kitty and a son by Sandy. Those are the only ones I'm aware of. Gayle had just had her daughter in the San Francisco Bay Area when Bobby was arrested for the Hinman murder. It's the reason he was travelling north.

Mr. Humphrat said...

The arrival of gun practice on Spahn is covered in a few sentences by Squeaky. She was with George and the firing began in the distance and they were wondering what it was. She goes to check and by the time she got back something else had caught her attention so George apparently never found out it was gunfire? I don't know. Odd.

And the one about Charlie giving the van to Dennis in exchange for his wrecked car and saying go take a trip up north is a hoot.

Robert C said...

DebS said: " ... a daughter each by Gayle ... "

Who's Gayle (?) ?

Orwhut said...

Deb,
Thanks! I haven't read the book so maybe I misunderstood Grim when I took him to mean Linda Kasabian clamed Bobby fathered her second child.

Orwhut said...

Robert C.
Gayle is mentioned in Paul Watkin's book. He calls her Gayle Beausolei and I take it they were married.
Here's a reference on Col. Scott's site. http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/2006/06/my-life-with-charles-manson-chapter_21.html
I think there was more detail in an article I read more recently but I can't locate that one.

beauders said...

It's odd that the pregnant Manson women knew which guy got them pregnant, such as Good has always Beausoleil was the father of Ivan and DNA proved it. This leads me to believe that at least certain women were assigned to certain guys.

AustinAnn74 said...

What about her (and Sandra Good) threatening anyone & everyone who testified against stupid Manson? What about her spying on George Spahn's conversations and reporting everything back to Manson? I don't buy this ridiculous account. She is just as delusional as she was back then.

AustinAnn74 said...

Also, what about her mouthing off in the Hendrickson documentary that "snitches will be taken care of?" She wasn't there just caregiving for an elderly man.

Orwhut said...

Hi Austin Ann,
With you and Panamint Patty around, it seems more like old times. Now we need to reactivate the Grump.

grimtraveller said...

Orwhut said...

maybe I misunderstood Grim when I took him to mean Linda Kasabian clamed Bobby fathered her second child

I did rather put it in a confusing way. No, Linda wasn't claiming that Bobby was Angel's Dad. That whole thing about Linda being made pregnant by Bobby was part of the penalty phase campaign to put the hat on Linda as she was meant to be the murdermind with her raison d'être being her feelings towards Bobby, presumably because of the pregnancy. They never could make up their minds if Bobby or Tex was the paramour of Mrs Kasabian !
But what is revealing about Squeaky is that in 2018 she still carries on with that. It tells you oodles about how her mind still works and actually sets the contents of the book in a rather peculiar light as a result.
As a matter of biological fact, none of the guys at Spahn {and Linda claimed to have screwed them all "except Larry"} could have fathered Angel. A child born on March 9th 1970, as Angel was, would have been conceived somewhere between June 12th and June 20th 1969. Linda said she had a normal problem free pregnancy and that Angel could have been a week early. That being the case he would have been due around March 16th. Even if that were the case, he would have been conceived somewhere between June 19th and 27th '69.
Linda didn't even turn up at Spahn until 4th July.
That's what I meant when I said that you can fight objective evidence in a case but you can't fight biology.

Robert C said...

Who's Gayle ?

Gail is the woman that formed the ménage à trois with Bobby and Gypsy that Leslie joined to make a ménage à quatre in the period before her and Gypsy joined the Family at Spahn. Some sources cite Gail as Bobby's wife but it came out in his last parole hearing that his earlier marriage before Barbara had been a jailhouse marriage and he said to Michael Moynihan back in 1999 that it was about 6 months before he met Barbara so it obviously couldn't have been Gail. As Bobby described it, "It was one of those relationships born of desperation, where when you get deeply into it you realize the mistake that you're making, that you can't commit to this person. The marriage was annulled almost before the ink was dry on the marriage license." Back in the 60s Gail did apparently sign a document as Gail Beausoleil {I think it might have been for a car hire or something ~ I can't remember exactly} but her main role in the story is that she was apparently jealous of Gypsy and used to cause arguments with Bobby to get his attention and their bickering became so bad that even though Leslie was in love with Bobby, she quit their situation to join Gypsy at Spahn and the rest is history that she's spent most of her life regretting.

Robert C said...

Thanks Orwhut and Grim for describing Gayle/Gail to me. It's still a little fuzzy but earlier today I tried looking up "Gayle Beausoleil" but didn't get a hit on anything. Anyway, my memory may be bad but I seem to recall that 'power-wagon' still sitting in Ballarat belonged to her ?

Dan S said...

The BB harem dynamic is very interesting. Why would gypsy leave BB for Charlie and/or Spahn?

curmudgeon said...

I had no clue Sandy's son was fathered by Bobby. When was it learned that DNA proved it? Still learning new things.

Orwhut said...

Grim,
Thanks for explaining about Linda and Gail. I'm easily confused and would probably need to make a timeline to better understand it.

Matthew Record said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
EL COYOTE said...

Gail and Bobby's daughter is named Zinda

grimtraveller said...

Dan S said...

The BB harem dynamic is very interesting. Why would gypsy leave BB for Charlie and/or Spahn?

In Gypsy's own words from 1971: "I came back to the ranch by myself because Bobby and Gail were fighting all the time, you know, and I just couldn't take it.
I loved Bobby, you know, but I just couldn't take all that fighting, so I came back to the ranch because I liked the people a whole lot...."

Matt said...

Orwhut said...
Hi Austin Ann,
With you and Panamint Patty around, it seems more like old times. Now we need to reactivate the Grump.


No. No Grump. Nope... nope... nope...


jerseydevil said...

The Fearless Vampire killers on TMC tonight

Dan S said...

Thanks! I wonder if all that domestic disquiet got BB in a stabby mood. Maybe this Gail is the real catalyst for HS

beauders said...

Hey Grim that's a great quote from Share, where is it from? Hendrickson?

Orwhut said...

Matt said...
No. No Grump. Nope... nope... nope...

Sorry about that Matt. I was thinking Grump was grumpy with someone other than you. I dropped another name from my comment because I knew you were peeved with that person.
Whut

grimtraveller said...

beauders said...

that's a great quote from Share, where is it from? Hendrickson?

Believe it or not, it comes from her testimony during the penalty phase of the TLB trial. Although there's questionable stories from all the Family witnesses that were loyal to Charlie at the time, there's also some interesting background information that sprouts up here and there that has more than the ring of truth about it.

AustinAnn74 said...

I don't buy this ridiculous account. She is just as delusional as she was back then

You probably won't get many arguments on that, but can one ever write off the entirety of what a person says over this many pages ? For example, she reproduces a poem that she wrote back in the day about how Sadie found them Spahn's Ranch. Now, during her penalty phase debacle, Daye Shinn takes Sadie through her life up until she met Charlie. Some of what she says turns up in her first book {or 2nd depending on how one views the Schiller book} but during the trial, she did say that she asked some guy if he knew of a place where maybe 15 or so people could stay and the guy suggested Spahn's so she checked it out and that's how they got to go there in the first place.
So I wouldn't write off everything she says. There are a number of things that are easily disprovable {Bobby being the father of Linda's child, for example}, there are some things that are a matter of opinion or which conflict with things that others have said, there are some things she seems to turn a blind eye to and some things that she may genuinely not know about or know the answer to and......some things that are true, exactly how she remembers them.

Orwhut said...

It seems to me that Bobby fathered more children by Manson girls than all of the other guys at the ranch combined. Does anyone have an accurate count?

2. Kitty and Sandy.

AstroCreep said...

If it wasn’t for a bunch of dead people, it woulda been a swell time, geeee!

She has really loving and fond memories of Tex. Even during the trial she described him as having a great sense of humour, walking around in a top hat and saying "indeed, indeed !" Although Tex deservedly gets a bad press for his murderous ways back then, I have to say that Squeaky succeeds in bringing more life and personality to him than anywhere I've ever seen. Come to think of it, I've never seen it ! Let's face it, he has always come across rather dourly.


Gorodish said...

grimtraveller wrote :

In Gypsy's own words from 1971: "I came back to the ranch by myself because Bobby and Gail were fighting all the time, you know, and I just couldn't take it.
I loved Bobby, you know, but I just couldn't take all that fighting, so I came back to the ranch because I liked the people a whole lot...."


Indeed, Gypsy....why stay around for all that fighting when you can go to Spahn with the likable people and have Charlie beat the living crap out of you for rolling a conga drum into the creek bed....or watch Charlie whip Snake Lake raw with an extension cord.....or watch Charlie sucker punch Kitty Lutesinger in the face for daring to fall asleep during an Armageddon sermon.....or watch Charlie chase Simi Sherry down the creek bed with a brick and beating her for sexual non-compliance.....why miss out on all that fun and excitement just to stay and listen to Bobby and Gail bicker ?

beauders said...

Gorodish don’t forget Danny DeCarlo and Charlie beat up and raped Danny’s former wife because she wanted her kid back. Charges were filed but she got scared and dropped them. Wish she were on this blog I’m sure she could tell a few nightmare stories about DeCarlo that would change the minds of any of his female admirers if there are any.

Matt said...

Sorry about that Matt. I was thinking Grump was grumpy with someone other than you. I dropped another name from my comment because I knew you were peeved with that person.
Whut


No worries. Whut...

In all these years there are only a handful of commenters we'd rather not disturb at the psych ward.



starviego said...

grimtraveller said...
"... Sadie found them Spahn's Ranch."

Huh? I thought Sandra Goode was the one who did that....

starviego said...

grimtraveller said...
"She has really loving and fond memories of Tex. Even during the trial she described him as having a great sense of humour.."

One would expect that someone who did what Tex did at the murder sites would have a 'dark' or disturbing aspect to his personality that would have been noticed before the murders. Like a history of cruelty to animals, or fire starting, or a really bad temper, or was known for his evil stares and inappropriate comments. But Tex is uniformly described as personable and easy going. He's a real mystery.

Dan S said...

He seems more a cipher than a Arial killer personality. Someone filled him up with ideas and the desire to impress. Charlie called him a mamas boy and lynn said he's interested in the ladies. Now who's his paternal figure that gives him guidance and who condoms the girls? Hmmmm. Gives credence to SOMEONE pulling the strings. I mostly wonder did he dobwhat "mama" wanted or only what he thinks "mama" wanted?

Or is there a puppet master on Lookout Mountain maybe?

Dan S said...

"Serial" not "arial" and "controls" not (lol) "condoms". Sorry got to proof read these things. Swipe text

starviego said...

Has Tex ever been written up in prison for being violent with or threatening other prisoners or guards? No rebel behavior from him in that respect. He seems to have a deep seated need to have the approval of authority figures, which may have made him accept without protests Charlie's orders to go kill.

He's pretty much a "wet noodle" in the ego/backbone department, like most of the other Manson men.

grimtraveller said...

Gorodish said...

Indeed, Gypsy....why stay around for all that fighting when.....etc....why miss out on all that fun and excitement just to stay and listen to Bobby and Gail bicker ?

That's one of those things that needs, I guess, to be put into context. At the time she joined, it was '68 and all the things you mentioned were from '69. On top of that, she's told the story a few times, that Charlie told Clem to drive her around, tied to a truck, if she tried to defect, during the trial period, which, along with her connection with Kenneth Como, actually puts her involvement with the Hawthorne shootout into place. It doesn't absolve her, but it does go toward explaining certain matters. And then on top of that is the vision that Family women like Squeaky, Sandy, Cappy, Kitty {almost especially Kitty}, Gypsy, Ouisch, Mary, Susan, Leslie and Pat had of Charlie and their time with him, particularly when in the years to come {and even in that period} Squeaky, Sandy, Kitty, Gypsy and Pat would be open about his violence towards them or threats towards their children. It is interesting to me that Sandy and Squeaky both publicly attest to Charlie's violence towards them {Sandy in a newspaper article which I can't, for the life of me, remember where I saw it ~ it was a few years ago; Squeaky testifying in court during the TLB trial}, yet in both cases they placed themselves as being at fault. It's like some of the women just didn't see what, for example, the guys were seeing ~ Charlie clouting women.

starviego said...

grimtraveller said...
"... Sadie found them Spahn's Ranch."

Huh? I thought Sandra Goode was the one who did that


That had always been the rumour on the wire. In the Emmons book, "Charlie" says that Spahn came through Sandy but on the stand, Susan says it came through her and this is supported by Squeaky in her book and by George Stimson in "Goodbye Helter Skelter" so on the balance of probabilities, I think Atkins can get this one !

One would expect that someone who did what Tex did at the murder sites would have a 'dark' or disturbing aspect to his personality that would have been noticed before the murders. Like a history of cruelty to animals, or fire starting, or a really bad temper, or was known for his evil stares and inappropriate comments. But Tex is uniformly described as personable and easy going. He's a real mystery

While that is sometimes the case, it isn't always. Pat doesn't seem to have had people worrying about any dark side. Quite the opposite, actually. Two people I knew well that went on to commit murder were two of the three funniest kids I ever worked with. They really were hilarious and could keep a room full of people in stitches and neither showed any signs that murder was part of their future. On the other hand, another kid I worked with that murdered, when I heard about it, I wasn't at all surprised. Not that I consciously thought he'd kill, just that when he did, I wasn't in shock at all. I recently found a piece I'd written back in 1991 in which I'd refered to this particular kid as "the knifeman" and thinking about it, it was the last time I ever saw him before I heard the news.

Tim A. said...

Dan S. said, "who condoms the girls..."

Dan, I read that in all seriousness thinking I had never heard that phrase before. Then when you wrote that it was really "who controls the girls" Well, that was pretty funny!

beauders said...

I would say meth played a big part in Watson's killings. He was a con artist before Manson with all his dodgy drug dealings.

Robert C said...

beauders said: " I would say meth played a big part in Watson's killings. He was a con artist before Manson with all his dodgy drug dealings. "

I don't think 'meth' was available in the late 60's unless it was called something else.

Wasn't 'meth' a coined term in the late 90's and 00's ?

brownrice said...

Robert C said...
I don't think 'meth' was available in the late 60's unless it was called something else.
Wasn't 'meth' a coined term in the late 90's and 00's ?


It was called "speed" or "crystal methedrine" and it flooded into the Haight Ashbury sometime in '67. People would eat it or snort it or shoot it... though no-one was smoking it in a base pipe at the time. It had been available from pharmacies on prescription since the '50s. Lenny Bruce was addicted to it as was Neal Cassady in his later years. The wiser freaks started saying "Speed kills". Robert Crumb had a cartoon based around that theme.

Robert C said...

I definitely (more than) remember 'speed' back then but just never heard it called meth. I recall 'speed' as any number of chemicals that would get you buzzed rather than a single source. It was never considered in my circles as something dangerous (when reasonably applied) like potentially heroin, opium, cocaine or any number of things ingested via needle. But that was then, and meth seems to be something atrocious now, not even being remotely in the same category as the old 'speed'. But then I'm not a chemist.

Robert C said...

Hard to believe Crumb is still around and in France. Sold off a lot of his old artwork to fund things. Sadly lost his only son (age 49) in a car accident in '17.

brownrice said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jack straw said...

As always....superb