Monday, March 4, 2019

DId PJ Tate suspect Blowback?


 wikipedia:
 "Blowback is a term originating from within the American Intelligence community, denoting the unintended consequences, unwanted side-effects, or suffered repercussions of a covert operation that fall back on those responsible for the aforementioned operations. To the civilians suffering the blowback of covert operations, the effect typically manifests itself as "random" acts of political violence without a discernible, direct cause... "



LtCol Paul James Tate, Sharon's father, was stationed at Ft. Baker, just across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco at the time of the murders.  His military specialty was counter-intelligence  So was he working on behalf of the US effort in Vietnam?  But if so, shouldn't he have been stationed a little bit closer to the scene of the action?  Or if he was  working on behalf of US Operations for NATO, shouldn't he have been stationed in Europe?  What was going on in San Francisco that was of such importance to the US Army?

Well of course the Bay Area was still the capital of the Counterculture at that time, two years after the Summer of Love kicked it into high gear amongst the youth all across the country.  And it is known that the US Army was lending it's intel officers to an all-out effort to fight that social movement.

 Watergate by Fred Emery c.1994
"...the Johnson Administration.... had initiated a program of infiltrating protest groups with U.S. Army intelligence agents."

 Jane Fonda, Heroine For Our Time by Thomas Kiernan, c.1982  pg197
The FBI*, the CIA*, the Army Counterintelligence Corps and other agencies had been turned into a massive combined political police force that infiltrated, spied on and sometimes actually engineered the activities of the "subversives who sought to undermine the American way."
 
*[Referring to the FBI's "Cointelpro" operations and the CIA's "Operation Chaos."]


Their primary tactic was to place informants and 'agents provacateurs' within the anti-war movement and other radical groups of the time.  The undercovers would try to get people involved in these groups to commit crimes, which would then cause them to lose public support. It also enabled the police to go in and crack heads, putting the radicals out of action.  Or they would try to raise tensions between different groups or within one group, to get the activists to expend their energy by fighting each other, instead of fighting The Man.  They even went so far as to target Rock 'n Rollers, merely for being symbols of the movement.

Was PJ Tate involved in this effort?  You have to consider the possibility. Patti Tate has stated that the family would move around every three years as they followed PJ from duty station to duty station.  If so,  PJ would have been in San Francisco during the Summer of Love, at the beginning.  Of course the Bay Area from '67 onwards was a 'target-rich' environment, in terms of counter-cultural elements.   These included the Black Panther Party, the United Prisoner's Union, the Students for a Democratic Society, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, the Diggers, the Merry Pranksters, the Black Muslims, the Aryan Brotherhood, the Church of Satan, and the Process Church of the Final Judgement, among others.



In previous threads I have explored the idea that covert forces--in local, state, and federal law enforcement--were working to manipulate and maneuver the Family into committing the murders, resulting in the demonization of hippies and the counterculture generally.


                                The Hippies  --  Menace to society!


After Charlie was named as a suspect, did Col. Tate remember the Manson name from the files in his office?  Did he hear rumors from his colleagues that Manson was a product of this hidden war against the hippies?  Certainly PJ had a lot of connections and friends from other Federal agencies:

Restless Souls by Alisa Statman and Brie Tate c.2012

pg40
Patti: "Earlier that morning he'd (PJ) gone to Holy Cross with five of his friends from the FBI to set up a protection perimeter for our arrival. Along with providing protection, their other purpose was to look for suspects."

pg73
PJ to Helder: "...I'm confident that my network of connections can accomplish in one day what will take your men a week."

pg74
PJ: " I turned off the television. There were three other men in the family room, all friends from the US Department of Defense, all skilled investigators. After the murders, Guy was the first to offer his assistance. As an FBI agent, he'd spent twenty of his forty-nine years traveling the globe... "

Why did PJ have all these friends from the FBI?  Because he was working with them.  And that work had little to do with Vietnam.


Some people even give PJ credit for breaking the case:

Q: The Autobiography of Quincy Jones by Quincy Jones, c.2001
"....No one knew who did it until Sharon Tate's father, who was in military intelligence, led investigators to a guy named Charles Manson who had dispatched his followers to the Cielo Drive house with orders to "kill the pigs on the hill." "

But if PJ had some bigger role in solving the murders than has been acknowledged, could this be because PJ was just more diligent in his own investigation, or was it that he had inside information on the Mansonoids?

According to PJ, he may have discovered the Manson/Spahn Ranch link on his own, even before the detectives:

Restless Souls by Alisa Statman and Brie Tate c.2012  pg94
PJ surveils Cielo Dr. late at night (Sept./Oct?). Notices two choppers drive up to Cielo and the bikers try to jump the gate before guard dogs chase them off. PJ follows them in his car--they end up at... Spahn Ranch!

I think it's interesting that PJ allegedly went undercover as a hippie in the weeks and months after the crime as part of his own effort to find the killers of his daughter.  But few at the time suspected hippies.  They suspected black militants, dopers, doper dealers, the Hollywood crowd, S & M freaks, even Satanists.  Did PJ know something others didn't?

Sharon Tate and the Manson Murders,  by  Greg King,  c. 2000
 pg262
"...Paul Tate had left his career in military intelligence and devoted himself to a personal search for her killers. He let his army crew cut grow long, grew a beard and submerged himself in the anti-establishment world from which he thought his daughter's killers had come. He had regularly spent long nights wandering through the Haight-Ashbury District and along the Sunset Strip* in Los Angeles in search of clues."

*Two places where Charlie and crew used to hang out at.



-----------

 http://www.mansonblog.com/2016/02/charles-manson.html
Robert Hendrickson:
"I would like to add: It is entirely possible that the Manson Family was infiltrated by the F.B.I.
AND that Helter Skelter was influenced by same. ..  It might also explain WHY Col Tate's hands were TIED."



ADDITION OF LA TIMES ARTICLE PROVIDED BY CIELODRIVE.COM

-------------------------------------------------------







155 comments:

AstroCreep said...

I’m posting this not because of any firsthand knowledge of what PJ Tate may or may not have done, but because I have 20 years of service within the special operations community and I think that gives me insight that others don’t possess.

Counter Intellignece isn’t what people think. It mostly pertains to force protection and isn’t an active (offensive) arm of the military. CI officers and enlisted personnel are not spies, assassins, or covert operatives. They also don’t have the required titles or authorities to operate within the United States, PERIOD. Military intelligence creates products and information for leaders to use for planning a military operation. Counter intelligence provides information on force protection, works with assets who can help counter foreign collection on US military personnel, and manages documents and products that are sensitive... among many other roles and responsibilities.

As an example- if the CIA were comducting an act of sabotage within the counter culture, PJ Tate would have ZERO authority to even be able to look at the documentation, nor would he have been ‘read on’ to the special access program under which these activities are compartmented. That’s not to say that a buddy of his within the FBI might tell him something in private, but to have access to these programs? No way.

As a member of Delta Force for 12 years, I obtained and maintained the highest level of security clearance. I have been provided with highly secretive materials as a means to conduct an offensive operation. That clearance did NOT give me the access to even know who or how that information was collected. Why? Because that’s a special access program which isn’t anything sexy or special, it’s just a way to compartmentalize and limit access to sensitive information.

If PJ had done some time in Vietnam, his role in working with a CIA base chief or case officer might have been different. There, abroad, PJ has different titles and authorities and that puts him on a level playing field with covert operations. It still may not allow him to be read on to special programs, but abroad, he may have worked more closely with intelligence agencies.

So, while I enjoyed reading this, I’d have to call BS on PJ being actively involved with anything on US soil. From what I gather, PJ going out ‘freelancing’ was after he retired and was likely based on information his friends shared with him. And that information wasn’t official.

starviego said...

AstroCreep said...
"CI officers and enlisted personnel are not spies, assassins, or covert operatives. They also don’t have the required titles or authorities to operate within the United States, PERIOD."

Very nice, but that directly contradicts evidence gathered my various Congressional Committees on Intelligence during the 1970s.

AstroCreep said...

In fact, to be even more clear, they have NO operational role and are a part of a unit’s support structure- not its operational wing.

PS- there’s no secret assassin school anywhere in the military

Matt said...

I emailed Alisa Statman for a response. This is what I received in reply:

-------------------------------

Interesting post...You can post this in responses as my response to your email:

First, I wanna say thank you to AstroCreep for serving out country and helping to keep us all safe during his time.

Second, he is correct.

Third, to Starviego, I know this post took a lot of hard work on your part to put the pieces together and there may be some merit to it in further reaches of US covert operations--though I am not aware of them, nor do I believe that PJ Tate was part of them either.

PJ's friends from the DOJ were long time friends, friends who he'd met in the trenches and ranks but had kept in contact over the years as they each elevated in different areas of the DOJ.

While PJ did visit Vietnam, he was never stationed there, unlike Korea, where he was most definitely stationed and wounded in theater when bombs hit his unit. He was near a tank when the tank was hit. He was thrown from the tank and received injuries to his hearing, his neck, shoulders, back, and legs--injuries that would haunt him for the rest of his life. The injuries he received in Korea precluded him from further active duty in the trenches. PJ could have retired at that point but chose to continue his career. By the early 1969, PJ was preparing for retirement and would serve out his time at Ft. Baker.

When I initially asked him what he was doing in intelligence at that time he told me: "You don't want to know because you'd never sleep well again if I told you." But, what he could tell me was that part of what he did there was to train guard dogs to be positioned at our missile silos in the US and with the use of the dogs and intelligence how to insure that the silos would always remain secure.

After PJ passed and I found his taped letters and military presentation notes and tapes, I found that he did so much more that I will not divulge here or anywhere, but can tell you that it's now outdated intelligence, had zero to do with the hippie movement, MKULTRA or anything of it's like, nor anything meaningful to Manson or his friends...Those are things he found later through his investigation.

As a footnote it should be known that PJ did not retire from the military and end his career to investigate Sharon's murder. He was already scheduled for retirement and he simply took leave early in grief and later to do his investigation into Sharon's murder.


-------------------------------


Speculator said...

Two things that have always confused me around the story about PJ - he supposedly grew his hair long from a crew cut and a beard in order to infiltrate the hippies - it would surely take years to grow it so long??!!! Also the bikers who supposedly tried to jump the gate at Cielo at midnight - why were they even there - sightseeing???! At midnight???!! I’d love someone to make sense of those two points

starship said...

Please, just stop it with Restless Souls. Just. Stop.

Vera Dreiser said...

Well, least we now know who "Cindy Lee" is.

Matt said...

We also know who Vera is. She is actually a Transformer.


grimtraveller said...

starship said...

Please, just stop it with Restless Souls. Just. Stop

Can you elaborate ? You've stirred my intrigue.

Vera Dreiser said...

Well, least we now know who "Cindy Lee" is

Can you elaborate ? That's completely over my head and yet too pointed to cast off as "random."

Speculator said...

things that have always confused me around the story about PJ - he supposedly grew his hair long from a crew cut and a beard in order to infiltrate the hippies - it would surely take years to grow it so long

Back in December '69 when Leslie Van Houten was speaking to Marvin Part in private and confessing all, she commented on how she didn't feel sorry for the victims, but she did feel for the victim's families. She said she tried not to think about it as it made her feel bad for them and even cry. When her lawyer asked her why she felt bad, she mentioned the LaBianca's kids finding the bodies. Her reasoning was interesting ~ the kids were her kind of age. Her choice of words {"You know, that seems ugly to me"} is also interesting. She also said "And I heard that Mr. Tate sort of blew his mind, he’d put on a hippie hairdo looking for the people that did it to his daughter. I feel sorry for those people."
I'm just fascinated that by the end of 1969, Leslie Van Houten had "heard" about what Colonel Tate had been doing. It gives one a different perspective on the whole counter-intelligence conspiracies.

grimtraveller said...

Quincy Jones said...

No one knew who did it until Sharon Tate's father, who was in military intelligence, led investigators to a guy named Charles Manson who had dispatched his followers to the Cielo Drive house with orders to "kill the pigs on the hill."

Stick to multi-million selling albums and funky arrangements, Quincy !

Logan said...

Has anyone here read the Underworld USA trilogy by James Ellroy? A fictional but fascinating interpretation of COINTELPRO malfeasance

Speculator said...

Grim - that’s a very good point about Van Houten - how the heck did she hear about that so soon after the murders???!!

cielodrivecom said...

Grim says...
‘I'm just fascinated that by the end of 1969, Leslie Van Houten had "heard" about what Colonel Tate had been doing. It gives one a different perspective on the whole counter-intelligence conspiracies.’

There was an article about it in the Los Angeles Times on 12/4/69

Matt said...

Cielo, if you'll email it to me I'll post it here.

grimtraveller said...

cielodrivecom said...

There was an article about it in the Los Angeles Times on 12/4/69

Thanks CD.C.
Right around the time it was first discovered by those outside the Family that Leslie was involved in some of the murders. In the space of 9 days she goes from being offered immunity to the possibility of a death sentence. Quaint timing.
One often finds that where there appears to be some conspiritorial edge in this case, the actual reality is rather mundane. Star tends to see skullduggery and subterfuge at every turn {which is not to say that there never was any, anywhere} yet more often than not, there are plausible explanations other than the emergence of a secret new world order. 😉

AlisaStatman said...

Dearest Vera:

If I want to comment here I use my real identity--always have because I have zero need to hide behind a moniker like you. Also, unlike you, I'm easily accessible through social media and usually answer any questions addressed to me through email, DM's, etc--such as the case here, with Matt.

And, contrary to Col Scott/Vera, I'm not here lurking, watching, and waiting for something to post on. Matt contacted me via email, asked for thoughts, I gave them. He later told me to check the replies, which I'm now doing.

This site that Matt, Deb and all the others put out has the potential to do so much good, and yet the trolls like Vera ruin it. So many mysteries are solved by armchair detectives on blogs such as this--just look at the case of Sister Catherine Seznik or Steve Hodel's Black Dahlia where real progress is being made to solve these cases.

Sadly, I purposefully stay away from this blog because even on well researched posts with tons of evidence to back it up, (like Deb's), usually gets derailed into useless bashing sessions with the topic of the thread all but forgotten.

Most who post here here are very smart people who have personal helpful experiences such as AstroCreep, or those who've done a ton of research like Deb and Cielodrive that could actually do something to uncover the mysteries of these cases and yet, time and again good posts are derailed in order to bash each other's thoughts or integrity.

So, to the Veras who hang and post here, why don't you all agree once and for all that yes, I'm a POS and then move back to the topic at hand.

Starviego, I'm sorry that you're post got hijacked by "me" because it deserved a more serious discussion.

St Circumstance said...

Hello Alisa!! I still reread Restless Souls and it will always be one of my favorite books. I also appreciate that you did take the time to answer the two emails I ever sent you 😀

Your Favorite Saint

Matt said...

I've uploaded the article sent to me by Cielo to the bottom of the post.


Vera Dreiser said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Panamint Patty said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Vera Dreiser said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Speculator said...

Well, just to try to get this back on track and without offending anyone I hope, the story about the bikers at the gate etc - is that just plain fantasy or any truth to it? And just to note, I don’t claim to have any expertise that others clearly do, but I do have questions that I’d love the experts to try to answer 🤤

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Speculator,

Your quote:
"Well, just to try to get this back on track and without offending anyone I hope, the story about the bikers at the gate etc - is that just plain fantasy or any truth to it?"

LOTS OF TRUTH TO IT.....

Mario George Nitrini 111
-------
The OJ Simpson Case

Speculator said...

Thanks for replying - are you able to expand though - as to why were they there and why were they attempting to access the property? If indeed they were there - I guess there’s no evidence either way other than the notes that Col Tate reportedly left.

starviego said...

Ms. Statman,

Can you tell us how much(percentage-wise) of the PJ Tate/Lt. Helder collaboration made it into your book?

-----------------------

Not only did PJ beat the investigators to Spahn, he uncovered another stunning link, which was never followed up on:

Restless Souls by Alisa Statman and Brie Tate c.2012
pg72
PJ surveils houseboats in San Marin(the Bay Area) as part of his own investigation in mid Sept. of 1969. A car he surveils "belonged to a high-ranking Black Panther..."

"Even more interesting, the investigators link him to Abigail Folger's social work. But by the end of the week, the suspect's airtight alibi dashed everyone's excitement."




/

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Yes Speculator, I can expand.
Ms Alissa Statman hit the
TIP-OF-THE-ICEBERG with the Biker reference in her book (Restless Souls)

First though, I need to ask Matt's permission to post here on his website a DIRECT MESSAGE I sent to
Ex-Hells Angels National President George Christie regarding this Tweet of Mr Christie's

https://mobile.twitter.com/georgeFPC/status/1090636126077870080

I'm extremely uneasy with this situation, but it's gonna come out sooner or later.

Matt?


Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

Milly James said...

Maybe the motorcyclists were looking for a place to turn round?

Speculator said...

Well they certainly found a “dead” end!!

Milly James said...

Touche!

Peter said...

Hit the tip of the iceberg and sank.

But please, PLEASE, Matt grant Mario permission to post whatever rambling screed he sent to the Hells Angels. As if that carried any weight whatsoever.

Milly James said...

How to spot Hells Angels at a bike rally: Look for the Winnebagos.

Speculator said...

Mario - are you able to elaborate any further? If those bikers were really there it was presumably to gain access to someone or something at the property? Given that they were trying to climb the gate their purpose must’ve been nefarious rather than invited? The Police had already gone through the property from top to bottom so I fail to see that they were trying to take anything relating to the crime. So that leaves Altobelli? Or were they just there for kicks? Or maybe not there in the first place.

AlisaStatman said...

Vera: New profile, who dis?

Saint: You're the sweetest.

Starviego: Only one paragraph lifted from the Tate/Helder manuscript.

Peter: Your comment to Mario is exactly what I wrote about trolls ruining this site. Why you gotta troll on a guy who may have something really interesting to add? Why not wait till after Mario presents to see if there's a legit reason to bag on him? And if there is, why not have an adult conversation about it instead of an attack?

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Thank you Ms Alisa Statman for your comment about me.

I want to tell you Ms Statman, it took an INCREDIBLE amount of COURAGE & GUTS on your part to put "The Biker" reference in your book
"Restless Souls."
MANY KUDOS to you Ms Statman.....for your COURAGE.....

Matt, if you're uneasy about me posting my biker reference, I understand. Please take your time. Please just let me know one way or the other. No problem at all for me.

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

starviego said...

AlisaStatman said...
"Only one paragraph lifted from the Tate/Helder manuscript."

I really would like to see that original manuscript in published form. Just sayin'...

Peter said...

Because his innuendo is NEVER supported by any facts. This entire post, while entertaining, is nothing more than rank speculation. It assumes a veneer of credibility by citing sources, but the sources are all unverifiable, including yours. The few statements that are credible don't support the facts that are being asserted or support only immaterial facts in an attempt to bootstrap the relevant but unsupportable ones.

For example. The only relevant fact presented in the first third of the post appears in the opening sentence: Tate was stationed in San Francisco and worked in counterintelligence. Everything that follows is conjecture. Even assuming that the fact that San Francisco was hippie ground-zero, or that the CIA infiltrated various counter culture organizations,none of this gets even close to supporting the conclusion that Tate was involved. Great, he was a spook and he was in San Francisco at the same time as the nascent Manson Family. Tell me something I don't know.

In the second part of the article, we learn the unsurprising fact that Tate had a lot of friends in the same line of work. I would imagine a life-long military intelligence officer would acquire these types of friends in school, military service, and private life.

In the final part we learn from a Quincy Jones throw away line in an otherwise 432 page biography devoted to a completely unrelated topic - the life of the renown jazz composer and NON-military-intelligence-expert - that it was Tate who solved the case. This is then supported by a lot of general hearsay about what Tate purportedly said and did from abook written 10 years after he was already dead. And - just in case that isn't enough to win over even the biggest skeptic - the irrefutable conclusion that Tate was involved in some domestic counterintelligence war on hippies is brought home by the fact that he was looking for hippies on the Sunset Strip. The same Sunset Strip where the Family occasionally hung out !

If Mario has any facts to support his claims about Satan's Slaves at Cielo, I'm all ears. But past experience has taught me not to hold my breath.

Speculator said...

Peter - but isn’t the problem that all the “known” facts have been exhausted and there is little left other than speculation and interpretation of secondary sources and even hearsay, and then an assessment of how trustworthy said sources may ot may not be and/or how logical and/or likely those unverifiable (by facts) interpretations of events may be?

St Circumstance said...

☺️

starviego said...


Peter:

Intelligence operations are by definition not publicized, so any information in that direction must necessarily be circumstantial only. Even speculative. You gotta admit Charlie was like manna from heaven to those who wanted to kill off the hippie movement:

Uncovering the Sixties: the Life and Times of the Underground Press by Abe Peck c.1985
pg227
"...freaks in general were "hypersensitive to the relentless gloating of the cops who, after a five-year-search, finally found a longhaired devil you could love to hate." ... Some undergrounders defended freaks against what San Franisco's Good Times.. called "a public frenzy of hate and fear not only against Manson but also against communes and longhairs in general." "

Speculator said...

By the way I’m not referring to Quincy Jones in that context and I entirely take your point in relation to the footnote entry in his book!

AstroCreep said...

Peter- thank you and amen!

I’m all for everyone here having a voice. If you choose to show your ass and/or general naivety by posting irrelevant material, then that’s the name you make for yourself. Personally, I don’t click on any of the stuff he posts, none of it has ever been relevant and I learned that after clicking the first time.

As far as leaving no stone unturned, I’m all for that too. Present your theory and support it with facts and information.

Is there a general rule on how hair-brained a theory can be? I mean, martians could have abducted Charlie with top secret Counter Intel assassins onboard the mothership and flown him into the future in an attempt to show him what the earth would look like as a result of no helter skelter- I could probably find some quotes from some UFO kooks to support my theory too.

Peter said...

Restless Souls page 94:
PJ surveils Cielo Dr. late at night (Sept./Oct?). Notices two choppers drive up to Cielo and the bikers try to jump the gate before guard dogs chase them off. PJ follows them in his car--they end up at... Spahn Ranch!

Debra Tate Response:
Pages 92-98 of the book publish an excerpt attributed to my dad’s memoirs of his alleged surveillance on Cielo Drive and other incidents. This does NOT appear in my dad’s unpublished memoirs.

Debra Tate Official Statement Regarding Alisa Statman's Book, available at http://www.sharontate.net/Debra_Tate_Official_Statement_Re_Alisa_Statman_Book_Restless_Souls_3_9_2012_long.html


Peter said...

There's a difference between looking at facts, making reasonable inferences, and drawing a conclusion from them and starting with a conclusion, then cobbling together a "theory" using whatever facts you can dredge up to support it regardless of how tangential or immaterial and to the exclusion of the overwhelming evidence that doesn't.

Granted, I find a lot of the facts you have presented in this and in your previous posts on the subject interesting. I just don't think they support the conclusion.

grimtraveller said...

AlisaStatman said...

Peter: Your comment to Mario is exactly what I wrote about trolls ruining this site

Peter's not a troll.

Why you gotta troll on a guy who may have something really interesting to add?

Because thus far, he hasn't.

Why not wait till after Mario presents to see if there's a legit reason to bag on him?

We've been waiting since the start of 2017. There comes a point where the emperor is walking about with no clothes on and someone has to tell him.
{No offence Mario}.

So many mysteries are solved by armchair detectives on blogs such as this - just look at the case of Sister Catherine Seznik or Steve Hodel's Black Dahlia where real progress is being made to solve these cases

I wasn't aware this was a case in need of solving.

AstroCreep said...

I mean, martians could have abducted Charlie with top secret Counter Intel assassins onboard the mothership and flown him into the future in an attempt to show him what the earth would look like as a result of no helter skelter

That could logically explain his ability to leap ten feet from a seated position behind a table with a pencil {not a pen} in his hand towards Judge Older.
Yeah, aliens.....

starviego said...

Intelligence operations are by definition not publicized

Unless Colonel Tate gives interviews to big newspapers !

so any information in that direction must necessarily be circumstantial only. Even speculative

So basically, it's unlikely to be accurate or relevant. But will make good copy ?

You gotta admit Charlie was like manna from heaven to those who wanted to kill off the hippie movement

As were the Beatles, the Weathermen, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, hippies that wouldn't work, the decline of Haight-Ashbury, Altamont and a whole host of other things.
And even then the movement didn't die.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

No offense taken grimtraveller.
I have my style (for reasons), and that's the way it is for me.

Peter, just because Debra Tate makes
"an official statement," doesn't mean something didn't happen.

AstroCreep, you have your opinion of me, and that's your right. Not a problem for me.

Matt, is Vera actually
ColScott/Don Murphy? And "IF" the 2 are 1?........??????...LMAO......
And also Matt, do I get the go-ahead to post?

Speculator, from what I "HAVE"
It DID happen.

Ms Alisa Statman. Your reference to bikers at Cielo and then back to SPAHN RANCH is just a fraction of what I can add to your book "Restless Souls"

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

Peter said...

"Dont forget to drink your Ovaltine"

Peter said...

https://youtu.be/zdA__2tKoIU

AlisaStatman said...

Peter:

First, Debbie Tate doesn't have both manuscripts, but that wouldn't matter, the information came to me verbally by PJ Tate.

Second, I addressed Debbie and Robin Olson's questions here:

http://www.sharontate7.com/

At the bottom is an offer to take the polygraph--even pay for the polygraph--with the caveat that she would need to take one too...Crickets from her camp.

Third: I'll tell you what, you set the time and place for both of us to take the polygraph (and I believe you might know someone), I'll pay for it, and lets see who actually shows up.

AlisaStatman said...

Oops, sorry, forgot this part:

Peter and Grim, my apologies for insinuating that Peter is a troll, his response just came off troll-ish to me personally because I believe in treating everyone with respect, even if I don't agree.

Points can be made without feeling like an attack.

But again, I do apologize for the call-out.

Peter said...

I'm not really interested in your pissing match with Debra Tate.

That Paul Tate told you he saw bikers at Cielo that he followed back to Spahn, but chose to leave this bombsell out of his two manuscripts, doesn't pass the smell test. He didnt tell hia family and he didn't share this with any of his Intel friends or if he did they've kept it secret for 50 years. Just you?

I don't need a lie detector for that one.

grimtraveller said...

AlisaStatman said...

my apologies for insinuating that Peter is a troll, his response just came off troll-ish to me personally because I believe in treating everyone with respect

I can dig that.
Sometimes there are sarcastic rejoinders between contributors but a lot of the time, there is a history there and other times still, respect, even if sometimes it's seemingly {or actually} grudgingly so. Many fervent and heated disagreements take place but still with respect. The same people fighting one moment will be joining with each other to make a point countering someone else at some other point.

Peter said...

Sorry. But i have to be able to put my fingers in the wound. Theres just too much "i know X becauae Y told me that Z once told him so, but I can't reveal who Y and Z are" stuff around here. A perverse star fucker need to be on the "inside."

James Koch said...

Restless Souls in an amazing book that gives a fair and honest account of this ridiculous tragedy from a point of view that we never hear...

EVERYONE SHOULD READ THIS BOOK!!!

It is not as sexy and provocative as HS and the other Manson books, but to good people- it will make a lot of sense and it will make you feel what it felt like to have go have gone through that from the victims point of view.

Deloris was a hero and so was Paul and the entire Tate family deserves respect and condolences for everything they were put through...

PERIOD!!!



James Koch said...

Oh by the way- thats me lol

-Your Favorite Saint

AlisaStatman said...

Hey Peter? I don't give fuck one whether you believe me or not.

It's not a pissing match with Debbie Tate--you chose to post Debbie Tate's website about me taking a lie detector, I responded with my website repudiating it (which I am entitled to do) with an offer to you or anyone who doesn't believe me to take a polygraph. You don't get to put out crap about me without the defense of my website.

If you're gonna publicly call me a liar on the internet where you get to hide behind a moniker like a spoiled millennial (not all millennials, just the spoiled ones) on Instagram, then at least grow a pair (if you're even a male) and back it up with some real facts, like a lie detector, not your ridiculous sounding personal olfaction, from which you are apparently suffering from a terrible cold.

Have an awesome evening.

AlisaStatman said...

Grim: Cheers.

AlisaStatman said...

James Koch: Thanks for that.

St Circumstance said...

My pleasure and honor ☺️

starviego said...

George Christie has this little blurb on Charlie:

http://www.georgechristie.com/blog/this-link-will-take-you-to-exile-on-front-street-untold-stories
As the sixties came to a close, it marked the end of an era. Especially for the outlaw bike world. Out east, a war was brewing between the Outlaws and the Hells Angels over the oldest reason in the world: a women. The Bay Area had Altamont, where a young Hells Angel named Alan Passaro stabbed Meredith Hunter to death, after Hunter pointed a gun at the stage where several Hells Angels sat.

And in Southern California we had maybe the best kept secret of all: Danny DeCarlo from the Straight Satans Motorcycle Club fingered Charlie Manson in the cult murders perpetrated in Los Angeles. It didn’t take long for the local small 1% community to ride into Venice and shut down the Straight Satans.

All those events conspired to create a subtle shift in the outlaw bike world consciousness, even though it wouldn’t become totally evident for years.
The look of your bike and your knowledge of its mechanics became less important than, “How tough is this guy and can he keep his mouth shut?” The carefree nights of endless rides and parties were all but behind us.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Starviego,
Thanks for your comment regarding George Christie.

I will tell EVERYONE this:
From what I have been told, and from what I have, Alisa Statman has it 100% right about Bikers at Cielo and then back to
SPAHN RANCH

Mario George Nitrini 111
--------
The OJ Simpson Case

Peter said...

I don't care about some childish lie detector challenge. I simply don't believe that Paul Tate followed bikers to Spahn Ranch. Whether he lied to you or you made it up makes no difference. There is no evidence of it anywhere, specifically in the manuscript which is the one place it would be.

Back what up with real facts? One doesn't need to prove something of which no record exists didn't happen? I didnt write the book.

Sorry lady, but that's not how it works.


Peter said...

I will tell EVERYONE this:
From what I have been told, and from what I have, Alisa Statman has it 100% right about Bikers at Cielo and then back to
SPAHN RANCH


Well I'm sure glad that's settled.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Well there you go Peter. You FINALLY realize the truth when you say:

"Well I'm sure glad that's settled"

Mario George Nitrini 111
----
The OJ Simpson Case

Peter said...

Stay golden MGN.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Thanks Peter (GOLDEN)

Perhaps now, you may want to address me as:
SUPER GOLDEN MARIO......

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

starviego said...


Charlie early on was making connections with the Satans. Christie admits he was riding with them in the same time period, for what it's worth.

Member of the Family: My Story of Charles Manson, Life Inside His Cult, and the Darkness that Ended the Sixties by Dianne Lake
"Even before we'd left for the desert(in Oct '68), I'd noticed that bikers from a club called the Straight Satans had started showing up at the Spahn Ranch."

I figure that's where they were getting most of their Speed, as the bikers always have a lot of that.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Thanks Starviego for posting this information again about George Christie.

The Straight Satan's MC were not the only "CLUB" showing-up at SPAHN RANCH.

Mario George Nitrini 111
-----
The OJ Simpson Case

Peter said...

I see. So then Paul Tate must have seen them go to Cielo Drive and then followed them back to Spahn before anyone had.made that connection. And then he neglected to include that minor detail in his two manuscriots, didn't tell his family or his fellow military-industeial-counter-intelligence-anti-hippie-operation-Chaos friends,

Good thing he remembered to tell Alias before he died.

Peter said...

Ugh. Riddled with typos.

AlisaStatman said...

Vera: Love you bunches, but I am seriously not Cindy Lee. Perhaps if you come out of the closet he/she will as well. I'm happy to hand over my internet history, and any accounts I have on blogger (one, Alisa Statman). Are you?

Peter: If you'd just asked me nicely I would have explained why it wasn't in either manuscript.

See, that's how life works when you're standing face to face with someone and having a debate. You could have said, "Alisa, with all due respect, as it stands right now, I just don't buy it. Could you elaborate?" At which point, I would have explained.

You're entitled to your opinion but the internet should not give you free reign to just accuse someone of being a liar when you don't know all the facts at hand.

starviego said...

The Biker stuff was interesting, but the really explosive revelation by PJ was the link he discovered between Folger and the BPs.

Peter said...

So what? You're going to punish me by not elaborating? I would only be interested because I'm curious as to what you think you could posaibly say that would somehow adequatwly explain it away.

There are no facts at hand. That's the problem.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Starviego,
Check-it-out
DROOPY, a journal about Satan Slave DROOPY

https://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=148953&page=2&amp=1

Hi-lite
SATAN SLAVES
Manson
Family
Letter

I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

AlisaStatman said...

Peter: And still, you can't bring yourself to be civil and ask nicely.

Peter said...

Alisa. Stopped caring.

Golden Mario. I had to read the whole thread twice because I thought i.must have missed something. That's 15 minutes in not getting back.

Linsycar said...

Man! This shit cracks me up. I'm an outsider and I like to read the interesting factoids but then when I scroll down to read you's people's posts, wow!! Y'all really get all fired up, don't ya? 🤓

Peter said...

Don't play coy with me you little minx.

Peter said...

Who left the door open?

Peter said...

She'll answer but you have to take the polygraph challenge first.

AlisaStatman said...

Vera, Vera, Vera, you loved my book, told me so in personal emails numerous times over the years. Said you couldn't wait for the limited series on it. Why lie and attack now?

starviego said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Peter, perhaps read it a 3rd time....
My 15 minutes is not up yet.

Vera Dreiser,
You say:
"that WHOLE story about the Col chasing bikers to Spahn is made up"
So you have a Crystal Ball where you can see what has happened in the past?

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

Peter said...

We may not be there yet. But you can see it from here

AlisaStatman said...

Linsycar: It is some funny, yet childish shit (sadly).

Starviego: Too late. Again, I'm so sorry your post got hijacked, but I'm going to bed now so perhaps the topic will get back on track.

Peter: Sweet dreams. Sleep tight and don't let the bedbugs bite.

Peter said...

How is this hijacked. This point, whether Tate saw bikers at Cielo and made a connection to the family at Spahn but never revealed that fact is central to his theory.

Peter said...

Maybe you'll dream up an explanation.

ed tom said...

Since Peter won't,I will ask nicely for your cooperation in clearing up why the Biker Scenario is not in Mr Tate's manuscript,are you willing to do that without me having a polygraph. I'm in Scotland but if you cover my expenses I'm willing to come do one.... just kidding.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

George Christie has this little blurb on Charlie:......in Southern California we had maybe the best kept secret of all: Danny DeCarlo from the Straight Satans Motorcycle Club fingered Charlie Manson in the cult murders perpetrated in Los Angeles

This is news ? ��
Maybe someone should have told him about Al "Houdini" Springer.

"Even before we'd left for the desert(in Oct '68), I'd noticed that bikers from a club called the Straight Satans had started showing up at the Spahn Ranch."

Do bear in mind that Dianne's memory for actual dates and days, even back in '69 & '70 was not exactly earth shattering so it's hard to see how one could remember in graphic detail almost 50 years later, days one hadn't even taken note of at the time.

the really explosive revelation by PJ was the link he discovered between Folger and the BPs

I can't for the life of me see what is so explosive about a wealthy, liberal White lady with something of a social conscience that volunteers as a social worker in a Black area and is affected by what she encounters and goes on to support the campaign of a Black candidate running for Mayor....having some kind of "link" to Black Panthers. That's like getting excited that Charlie had a 'link' to the probation services. And what's a "link" ? Almost anything from 'being married their brother' to 'I used to live 2 streets away' constitutes a 'link'. If Pat and Squeaky went to the same school, even though they may never have met then, one could call it a link. Michael Caine 'links' Charlie and Sharon because, according to him, they were once at a party he was at ~ even though they were never there at the same time.

In previous threads I have explored the idea that covert forces in local, state, and federal law enforcement were working to manipulate and maneuver the Family into committing the murders, resulting in the demonization of hippies and the counterculture generally

This is pretty much the wheel on which most of your stuff turns.

I think it's interesting that PJ allegedly went undercover as a hippie in the weeks and months after the crime as part of his own effort to find the killers of his daughter. But few at the time suspected hippies. They suspected black militants, dopers, doper dealers, the Hollywood crowd, S & M freaks, even Satanists. Did PJ know something others didn't?

PJ explains part of his raison d'être in the article ~ drugs were found in the house and in two of the victims and 3 of the police's theories were drug related. The Hollywood scene was fueled by drugs and in 1969 even Hippies associated drugs with Hippies. So who better to begin a secret investigation among than with those solidly connected to the drug world ? A druggie might let something slip that connects. Look at how the actual case itself is a cornucopia of little connections that eventually twine into one almost undo-able knot.

grimtraveller said...

Peter said...

Ugh. Riddled with typos

Your passion for the debate is making you type too fast !

AlisaStatman said...

Peter: If you'd just asked me nicely I would have explained why it wasn't in either manuscript

Well, it's on topic so I'll ask, and nicely too for I'm a gent. Just out of interest, what were PJ's reasons for not putting it down in a book he writing ?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if he had observed some bikers at Cielo and followed them to Spahn. That in itself isn't particularly significant, especially when one considers that the Family was out of Spahn and off to Barker in September. Spahn had been on the police's radar, even though they ignored it, since the Cielo murders and before the LaBiancas were found. Roman Polanski claims Lt Helder was also talking early on about the Hippies from Spahn.
What would be interesting would be knowing what PJ made of what he observed. Did he file it away in his mind with others pieces of information that he may have come across ? Did he view this as something potentially case breaking ?

Mario the Golden said...

I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT

The world would be a much better place if the rest of us did, too.

Linsycar said...

wow!! Y'all really get all fired up, don't ya?

Yeah. It's the stuff good conversations are made of. You'd be surprised how much it gets the creative juices flowing and the ol' grey matter working. It's almost a kind of sport except criminal betting syndicates from the Far East aren't paying any of us huge sums to deliberately concede points and lose arguments.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Matt:
I sent George Christie a very long and detailed Direct Message on my Twitter account to his Twitter account.
I trusted a person that I had talked to on the telephone, had MANY text & DM's with this person regarding sensitive information, and more....
I sent my DM (George Christie's) to this person in the strictness of confidence. This person has LEAKED--out that DM. As far as I know, the DM has not gone public yet.
(I suppose a lesson for me is
who-to-trust.....AND MORE......)
I NEED TO GET THE DM OUT IN CYBERSPACE ASAP.
Matt, if you're uncomfortable about me posting it here on your website, for whatever reasons, not a problem for me.
Please let me know one way or the other.
Thanks

Starviego. Thanks again for posting this:
http://www.georgechristie.com/blog/this-link-will-take-you-to-exile-on-front-street-untold-stories
I've known about it for quite a while.
George Christie names the person in this blog-post I "WORKED" with.

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

AstroCreep said...

Sharing a personal experience that I think may apply in some way-

I have been involved in many significant engagements, ‘Blackhawk Down’ in October of 1993 was one of them. There are inaccuracies portrayed in the book and in the movie because of a story I told to the family of a fallen teammate. The story I told was done so to make the family feel better about what happened to their son and not malicious in any way however, is presented to the public as truth.

These types of things happen with families of victims/deceased. When I told that story to the family in 1993, there was no plan for a book, there was no movie nor did I expect that my private words to a grieving family would be passed along to Mark Bowden, the writer. And because when the book was being written I was assigned to the special mission unit that participated in Blackhawk Down, I was not allowed to talk to Mark. In a million years, I wouldn’t correct the record out of respect to the memory the family has about how their son was killed.

Was I right? I don’t know. I was a young kid at that point with only a few years in the military. I’d never been in that situation and was doing what I felt would help them heal. I’m sure many many things similar to this happened to all of the families involved in this case.

Could PJ have seen bikers and someone told him that his tracking them (to wherever) helped solve the case in order to give him some closure? Possibly. Or something very similar might have happened that has become ‘fact’ in all of our minds. I’d bet on it.

starviego said...

PJ doesn't strike me as the kind of person who needs to make up stuff. So I'm more inclined to believe his account than anything else.

Peter said...

Were not getting PJ's account. We are getting it filtered through someone else. D. Tate says that this passage from Restless Souls THAT THE AUTHOR ATTRIBUTES TO HER FATHER'S MANUSCRIPT does not appear anywhere in the manuscript.

Also, Tate strikes me as a bit of a kook. He was already 47 years old in 1970. The idea that he would grow a beard and infiltrate the hippies seems absurd - Peter Sellers in "I Love You Alice B. Toklas" absurd.

Harold: Oh, my God, I gotta be real. Kiss me. Kiss my eyes. Kiss my neck. Kiss my ankh.
Nancy: You sure?
Harold: Yes. Kiss it. Kiss my ankh. Kiss it now.

Claire Robinson said...

I believed the story about PJ seeing the people at Cielo just because it is common for murderers or people involved in a murder to return to the scene of their crime. Possibly too simple an explanation.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Thanks Matt for posting my latest comment here on your website.
George Christie put a like to my latest tweet
https://mobile.twitter.com/nitrini1950/status/1103734557780586497
George knows what I'm talking about....

Matt
If you have want/need to review my DM to George Christie, no problem. I will email it to you, and we can go from there.
Please let me know.
Thanks.

Mario George Nitrini 111
-----
The OJ Simpson Case

Matt said...

AstroCreep thanks for sharing that, it was very moving. I've heard similar things.

That said, what we read in Restless Souls came not only from conversations - but directly from the copious notes that Paul Tate took during his investigation and are still in existence.


grimtraveller said...

Claire Robinson said...

I believed the story about PJ seeing the people at Cielo just because it is common for murderers or people involved in a murder to return to the scene of their crime. Possibly too simple an explanation

I'm curious, in reality, just how many criminals return to the scene of their crimes.
And Claire, are you saying the bikers were the actual murderers and that Cielo had nothing to do with Waverly or the Family ?
There again, maybe some drunken bikers thought it might be a good night's revelry to nip up to what was now a world famous site {50 years on, people still go there in the dead of night} and have a look or maybe even traipse around the site if they could, maybe even grab a souvenir...Be a great story to tell the bros back in Venice. And then when the dogs barked and whatever else they did, the guys thought, hey, let's go down to that "Hippie" hangout and bang a couple of the broads. They were usually easy pickings.
Possibly too simple an explanation.

Doug Smith said...

Mario
I've yet to see Matt ask you NOT to post something. And, yet you never do. You just speak of this "mysterious bombshell" you would love to drop. Seems to me that you are free to drop this on this blog.

Please correct me if I'm wrong Matt...

Mario - walk the walk brother...YOU CAN DO IT!

starviego said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
starviego said...

grimtraveller said...
"I can't for the life of me see what is so explosive about a wealthy, liberal White lady with something of a social conscience that volunteers as a social worker in a Black area and is affected by what she encounters and goes on to support the campaign of a Black candidate running for Mayor....having some kind of "link" to Black Panthers. That's like getting excited that Charlie had a 'link' to the probation services. And what's a "link" ?"

As one of the first theories had been that TLB was done by 'black militants,' this should have been seen as an investigative 'lead' that needed to be checked out.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

As one of the first theories had been that TLB was done by 'black militants,' this should have been seen as an investigative 'lead' that needed to be checked out

1] It wasn't one of the first police theories.
2] It was checked out.
3] A link is as important as the linker makes it.
4] It's still not explosive.

starviego said...



I found this interesting comment about how the propaganda war on hippies was also carried out on the TV screen:

https://www.alternet.org/2017/11/he-was-no-hippie-remembering-manson-prison-scientology-and-mind-control/?comments=disqus
Scripted tv back then took shots at the hippies. The most famous waJack Webb and Timothy Leary on Dragnet. In sitcoms being a hippie was either a phase teenagers went thru (Greg Brady) or spaced-out characters good for a few laughs (Jim Ignatowsky). The audience (and the sitcom's stars) are supposed to feel sympathetic and superior to them.

In the dramas, hippies were either political criminals, manic dope addicts or someone walking a path to destruction. Rarely were hippies portrayed in a positive way.

Shows like The Mod Squad tried to portray hippies in a positive way but all you got were hippies with badges who were recruited to bust other hippies because hippie culture was crime ridden.

Even Gomer Pyle U.S.M.C. had a hippie episode. Trusting Gomer sat down with them, broke bread and sang a few lyrics from Blowing in the Wind (they nicknamed him Greensleeves for his green sleeves). They betrayed Gomer by stealing a
military vehicle and repainting it so the message was you can't be nice to hippies.

Matt said...

Peter said...
Were not getting PJ's account. We are getting it filtered through someone else. D. Tate says that this passage from Restless Souls THAT THE AUTHOR ATTRIBUTES TO HER FATHER'S MANUSCRIPT does not appear anywhere in the manuscript.


DT says all kinds of things. Like, "the dress was stolen...". I could name a ton of lies she's told over the decades.

Also, Tate strikes me as a bit of a kook. He was already 47 years old in 1970. The idea that he would grow a beard and infiltrate the hippies seems absurd - Peter Sellers in "I Love You Alice B. Toklas" absurd.

Why? Dean Moorehouse was 49 in 1969. He was present within the Family, dropping acid and boinking his brains out.


starviego said...

"Scripted tv back then took shots at the hippies. The most famous was as Jack Webb and Timothy Leary on Dragnet."

Probably referring to this episode, aired almost two years before TLB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiWIuGU0ziY

Sgt Friday: "Marijuana is the flame, Heroin is the fuse, LSD is the bomb."

Peter said...

"How do you do, fellow Kids."

Robert C said...

Starviego said: "The most famous was as Jack Webb and Timothy Leary on Dragnet."

Timothy Leary ? You mean Harry Morgan ? And yes, there was one episode with a Leary-esque like person.

Star Trek had a very nice episode involving unruly 'free spirits' who came to naught but in the end Kirk praises their 'peace/love' mantra. The show sort of walked the tightrope -- the hippies are altruistic but now need to cast aside their childhood shenanigans and become grown-ups. This was pretty much the attitude with adults in 1969. The fear and subsequent push back was substantial.

Ok .. sorry .. back to Tate.

Claire Robinson said...

I'm not sure Grim. But what I am sure of is you are making fun of me like some insecure little boy. Thanks a lot.

Doug Smith said...

Don't forget Otto's epic monstrosity SKIDOO...lol...

https://youtu.be/sd6OxYZigFU

grimtraveller said...

Claire Robinson said...

I'm not sure Grim. But what I am sure of is you are making fun of me like some insecure little boy

I suspect everyone is insecure about something.
I wasn't making fun of you. I learned, after our last exchange on the Kathleen Maddox thread, that you, internet exchanges/understanding and I were unlikely to become a power trio in the near future.
Your response here confirms it.
You see Claire, I was actually saluting your observation that sometimes, we look for these deep conspiritorial angles and meanings and explanations when sometimes, the answer may well be something very simple, very everyday, rather mundane in the grand scheme of things and actually plausible. Your example of why bikers might be at Cielo was that sometimes, murderers return to the scene of their crime. That does imply that the bikers were the murderers. I was merely asking you to confirm that or otherwise and then I was going to ask you why you thought that. If I were to go on to argue with you about your reply, well, I do that with almost everyone at some point.
As an aside, I am curious just how common it is in reality for murderers to return to the scene of their crimes.
My explanation of why the bikers may have been at Cielo was the one I gave. Nothing mystical or deep, just something some hard drinking bikers may have latched onto. I'm not in the camp that "it definitely didn't happen." I just don't believe it's particularly significant if it did. And thus, our explanations might be seen as too simple. If it was aimed in any particular direction, it would be Starviego's.

Thanks a lot

I aim to please.

Robert C said...

Star Trek had a very nice episode involving unruly 'free spirits' who came to naught but in the end Kirk praises their 'peace/love' mantra

If that was the one about the group that was looking for Eden and led by the insane doctor with the terminal disease, that was one of the best and most thought provoking episodes. Even back in the 80s/90s when I first saw it, they reminded me of the Family, though Dr Sevrin didn't evoke Charlie and the episode apparently came on a good 10 months before Charlie made national news. Back around 2005, I remember commenting on that on a site called "Jumping the shark" as one commenter felt that the final season of the original series was when the show jumped. I disagreed.
Spock was supportive of them throughout and Chekov was only against them because his flame had chosen them over him and the rigidity of the academy.
Because the planet eden was full of acidic and poisonous fruit and surfaces, maybe it was a subliminal message that acid, while promising paradise, will do you in eventually !

starviego said...

I found this interesting comment about how the propaganda war on hippies was also carried out on the TV screen..

Without a doubt there was a propaganda war carried out against the hippies on TV but the vice was also versa, those sympathetic to the counterculture getting into TV and cinema to show that agenda. Think "Magical mystery tour," "The Monkees," "Head," for example.
Although it would be great if art was art and not used for propaganda, the reality is that we're humans and many quarters do use art as propaganda. I've seen it as a male, I've seen it as a person that is Black, I've seen it as a Christian, I've seen it as a Brit and I've seen it wielded against females, Jews, Scots, liberals and conservatives, socialists, you name it. And let's not even get to newspapers and childrens TV....

Robert C said...

Grim said "If that was the one about the group that was looking for Eden and led by the insane doctor with the terminal disease, that was one of the best and most thought provoking episodes."

Yes, that was it. And it was one of the first times the large and growing 'movement' was acknowledged on TV largely because it was too big to ignore. That's when the media decided to over-simplify by calling everything 'hippies' which still lingers to this day.

brownrice said...

Doug Smith said...
Don't forget Otto's epic monstrosity SKIDOO...lol...

Ahhh... Skidoo... truly one of the most ill-conceived Hollywood productions ever :-)

Someone should've pointed out to Otto that Jackie Gleason fans don't particularly like hippies or acid... and that the last thing acid-heads would wanna see is Jackie Gleason tripping (enough to give ANYone a bum trip).

Though admittedly Groucho Marx smoking a joint with the acid-cook at the end of the movie was kinda cool.

Matthew Record said...

Off topic....There was a new blog last week that was black type with black lettering and really hard to read. After me and someone else commented on how hard it was to read, it was removed. I figured it was removed just to change the background. However, it never came back. From what I could read, it seemed like a very interesting topic and read. Wondering if it will come back.

Matt said...

Matthew Record said...
Off topic....There was a new blog last week that was black type with black lettering and really hard to read... Wondering if it will come back.


It will not.


Matt said...

Mario, email me whatever letter you have. I'll see about posting it.


Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Thanks Matt.
It's a fairly long Direct Message I sent to George Christie on my Twitter account. It's pretty detailed. After reading it many times, I'm not comfortable at all putting it out in CyberSpace right now.
I can tell you it had to do with certain situations that were going on at SPAHN RANCH when The Charles Manson Family were there that were told to me.
George Christie's replies back to me were positive. One, VERY TELLING.

I want to thank you Matt for your consideration. I'm not trying to be difficult. It's very serious....

Mario George Nitrini 111
-------
The OJ Simpson Case

Milly James said...

Hi Mario, perhaps you could send Matt an edited version?

grimtraveller said...

Oh Mario, you're gold, 24 carat !
8 times you talk about this thing you want to post including telling us how you must get it into cyberspace ASAP.
Oh well, on with the show.....

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Ms Milly.
There is no edited version with my Direct Message to George Christie.
I didn't explain myself thoroughly to Matt.

I apologized to George Christie first. Then I basically give an explanation to George of how I got involved with
"The Group," what I "DID," Ect, ect.....a little in-between....and then go on to tell George some of what was told to me about SPAHN RANCH when the Manson Family was there, and then some other items.

I'm not quite sure how to handle this situation. If it gets LEAKED--OUT by another person, oh well, I'll have to deal with it.

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

grimtraveller.
There have been some other situations that have transpired that I have had to take into consideration. I changed my mind.

Grim,
THIS IS NO SHOW FOR ME.....

Mario George Nitrini 111
-----
The OJ Simpson Case

Peter said...

https://youtu.be/XWGuzwj4DSs

Doug Smith said...

No effin kidding

AstroCreep said...

Personally, I feel that Mario ‘I can hardly contain this really amazing secret with the world just like the OJ non-bombshell I wasted my time reading about’ Nitrini should be banished from commenting. A large portion of this thread has been devoted to his credibility and/or lack there of. And he clearly wasted all of our collective time by even engaging with his garbage. While I don’t think he’s malicious, I think he’s proven himself not credible and if he wants us to engage with him, he should be allowed to post something and we can engage there, not in the comment section on another thread. It’s not productive, doesn’t help the blog’s credibility, and is a detraction from the people here that have thought provoking ideas and opinions.

grimtraveller said...

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

There have been some other situations that have transpired that I have had to take into consideration. I changed my mind

I understand.
Perhaps you'll also understand why you are simply not taken seriously.
You may feel it's ignorant, you may feel it's unfair. But if you were to empathize and put yourself in someone else's position, then you should get why you might be regarded as a pair of reading glasses without lenses.

Peter said...

Tate strikes me as a bit of a kook. He was already 47 years old in 1970. The idea that he would grow a beard and infiltrate the hippies seems absurd

That's kind of harsh. The man had just lost his daughter to a savage murder and murderer[s]. He was an army man and obviously felt that there was some direct action he could take. Many people who have been victims or close to victims of crimes of all descriptions will tell you that they feel helpless and vulnerable but if they could, would do something direct to somehow redress the balance. Unlike Liam Neeson they won't always have an idea of what they'd do, just something. A few weeks back, my younger son had his bike nicked while out doing his paper round. As he needs a bike for his job, we later went out to get another one but as we walked to the shop, I was seriously hoping I'd see someone riding his bike. I actively looked at every person on a bike that went past me ! I have no idea what I would have done if I'd seen someone on his bike, or even if I would have done anything ~ but I wanted to see someone on it.
Now, that's just a minor episode. Imagine that your pregnant daughter has just been gutted like a fish and with less decor and consideration. And you have a military background, exacerbated by having been in intelligence. It's perfectly understandable, given what you know about your daughter and some of the people she hung with, that you'd want to try and do something. When you consider people like Timothy Leary, Tuli Kupferberg, John Coltrane, Dianne Lake's dad and a host of others that weren't exactly in their teens and early 20s that were experimenting with psychedelics, trying to infiltrate the arena of longhairs and the drug oriented makes abundant sense even if it was almost inevitable that it would come to nothing.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Matt, I have sent you an email. If you're comfortable posting
my Direct Message to George Christie,
GO AHEAD.....
it's your call now. It's been a
VERY difficult decision for me to make.
Your call Matt.

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

Robert C said...

Totally agree. Mr. Nitrini the Magnificent/Golden is a total maverick/quack who has played this blog like a harp to placate his obvious limitations. At this point I believe he has zero information of interest about the Spahn Ranch or anything else related to the MF.

chris hannel said...

I have a question about the Hinman murder. So when Manson and Bruce Davis left they took Gary's Fiat station wagon, when Bobby Sadie and Mary left they took the VW Bus. What happened to the car that Manson and Bruce drove up in before taking the Fiat?

Doug Smith said...

Perhaps...uh...Mario took it back to the ranch?

grimtraveller said...

chris hannel said...

I have a question about the Hinman murder. So when Manson and Bruce Davis left they took Gary's Fiat station wagon, when Bobby Sadie and Mary left they took the VW Bus. What happened to the car that Manson and Bruce drove up in before taking the Fiat?

Either Bruce or Charlie drove the Fiat back. The one that didn't drove the car that they arrived in.

Gorodish said...

chris hannel wrote :

have a question about the Hinman murder. So when Manson and Bruce Davis left they took Gary's Fiat station wagon, when Bobby Sadie and Mary left they took the VW Bus. What happened to the car that Manson and Bruce drove up in before taking the Fiat?

Manson and Bruce left in separate cars. I believe they came in the Johnny Swartz deathmobile, the '59 Fairlane. When they left, Manson drove the Fairlane and Davis the Fiat back to Spahn.

chris hannel said...

That answers the question. Thanks.

starviego said...

Another version has it that Danny DeCarlo drove them down, and he took the vehicle back to the ranch.

chris hannel said...

Is there any way to view ALL of Sadie's parole transcripts from 1978 to 2009? Cielodrive.com only has a few. And is it possible to view Her 2008 compassionate release hearing transcript?

starviego said...

I don't believe that information is publicly available.

grimtraveller said...

Doug Smith said...

Perhaps...uh...Mario took it back to the ranch?

Don't you mean BACK to the SPAHN RANCH ?

Gorodish said...

the Johnny Swartz deathmobile

Although it shouldn't be, that is just hilarious. It rolls off the tongue so smoothly and appropriately.

starviego said...

Another version has it that Danny DeCarlo drove them down, and he took the vehicle back to the ranch

Was that one of Bobby's versions ?

starviego said...

grimtraveller said...
"Was that one of Bobby's versions ?"

I think it was, but not sure.

Milly James said...

Stirring the cauldron there Doug! (Cackles)

ed tom said...

Well Matt, are you gonna publish....your call...up to you...are you gonna

Milly James said...

Has it been sent though? I think Mario might well have encountered IT difficulties...

starviego said...

For what it's worth, The DA Evelle Younger may also have worked in military counter-intelligence with the Air Force:

Call of Duty My Life Before, During, and After the Band of Brothers by Lt. Lynn "Buck" Compton c.2008

pg188
The (Air Force)unit was to be known as the Office of Special Investigations(OSI). It had both criminal and counterintelligence functions. Many of the personnel assigned were former FBI agents along with other military investigators. .. I was assigned to the unit at Maywood Air Force Base in LA County. One of my fellow reservists was a municipal court judge named Evelle Younger. A former FBI agent, Younger had served with the OSS (precursor to the CIA) during the war. Many years later Younger retired as a major general in the reserves.

starviego said...

Alisa Statman, if you're still reading this, do you remember the name of Roger "Frenchy" Lajeunesse of the FBI being mentioned in PJ's notes?

Doug Smith said...

Starviego - That name rings a bell for me. At first I thought of some 1930's Quebecois hockey goalie...lol...but, then recalled something I may have read concerning the assassination of Bobby Kennedy or, maybe Sirhan Sirhan particularly.

Am I crazy? Warm? Tepid?

starviego said...

Yes, he did work on the RFK investigation. His name also briefly appears on the 2nd Tate homicide report.

Doug Smith said...

YES!
I reread it after seeing your reply this morning and I totally recall that now.

Also, the Bill Reinhardt and Bobby Jamieson inclusions. More six-degrees of separation stuff with those two - 3 members of LOVE backing Jamieson on 2 tracks (one used in Mondo Hollywood too if I'm not mistaken). MH - Bobby Jamieson - Love - Cupid - Jay Sebring - Arthur Lee's Grass Roots - Beasuleil - The more famous Grass Roots drummer - Bill Reinhardt - Gene Clark of the Byrds - Gene Clark solo l.p. band feat both Reinhardt and drummer Joel Larsen - Byrds David Crosby - Mama Cass - 10050 - Topanga - Neil Young - MF - Arthur Lee's Love - Forever Changes...

The scene really was incredibly convoluted and connected. I'm sure that I could find 25+ more connections

Unknown said...

I have learned through a tweet that the Satan Slaves hung out at Spahn ranch with the Manson family. They drank beer and more. I can't tell you the more part. You'll have to guess at my riddles. All I can say is the slaves hung out at Spahn and much much more
Also I just happen to no secrets about the OJSimpson case and more. Maybe one day I'll reveal all but for now I'm just going keep posting this nonsense for few years. But I know stuff. I even signed an agreement with a guy I'm not sure was Manson at a secret construction site. And more

Unknown said...

Actually I'm saying the slaves buried bodies at Spahn. Even though these people ratted everyone out including themselves it's true. A gang of freaks that couldn't keep a secret has bodies all over Spahn oh and more. I'm not going to say more just believe me ok

starviego said...


Here is another reference to the active role of the Army in domestic intelligence operations of that era:

https://fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/ci3/ch2.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,-39,798
pg2of131
In the mid-to-late 1960s.... Widespread violence and civil disorder arose in many cities and on many campuses across the country. President Lyndon Johnson and later President Richard Nixon acted on a number of fronts, including the counterintelligence elements within the intelligence community, to determine who was to blame for the turbulence. .... Army intelligence conducted its own domestic program..

pg7of131
In January 1970, charges were made that the United States Army was engaged in widespread surveillance within the United States of the political activities of civilians. .... High Defense Department officials have acknowledged that the charges of widespread domestic intelligence data gathering and storage were indeed accurate



grimtraveller said...

None of this is new, groundbreaking or earth shattering.

Unknown said...

But seriously I agree Mario should not post unless someone has had chance to see if he's just looking to derail the debates and opinions of a true all star cast of Tate liabianca scholars. People new to this topic can't appreciate the people that post contribute and have fascinating thought provoking discussions in the comment. You got everything here the colonel live or hate him he knows alot and never full sometimes you have stumps on who actually lives with Sandra good and is very articulate and decent.people have even asked Lynette questions through him. People like debs too notch investigator Saint even grim all no this subject inside out. Many more that deserve mention but there's so many true scholars here it's impossible to remember all. The other blogs often participate in the discussion here cielo comments often with facts and articles to back it up several authors of Manson books. Alisa Sharman stoner etc. I guess it sucks to have Mario two years in still spewing nonsense totally derailing some great threads with his secret that he knows but his life is in danger from a "group" asks Matt over and over if he can share his earth shattering info. Matt actually still fair to this guy who's not once produced a shred of anything but nonsense says ok Mario let me see what you got. Mario not expexting Matt to a knowledge his nonsense than has to produce but he's got nothing so he comes back with thanks Matt but my life is in danger from a long defunct biker club who's members are mostly dead or in nursing homes social just can't add my info to your blog. Everyone of these people I mention tried humor him before shutting him out. I agree he has absolutely nothing to contribute and honestly had derailed some great debates among the true scholars.Been few years I think these people tried to give benefit of doubt but that's impossible at this point. And to see This putz insult the Colonel who is a hard man love or hate the Colonel is a legend in this community I love seeing the others argue there points with him usually ends in some insults from both sides but there's respect. To see Mario insult the colonel and dox him even tho he's been docked before Mario isn't smart enough to know that Matt and col have a mutual respect and Matt has said col contributes so much he does get privilege over some trouble maker. Mario trading jabs with col on this subject is almost disgusting.tell the Colonel some of your incredible info and blow his mind than you earned the right to disrespect a man that knows more on this subject than Mario pretends. I'm just putting my opinion in. We're incredibly lucky to have this all star cast of Tate labianca legends to share there views and awesome discussions and every one is welcome regardless of knowledge level. Mario has for atleast two years tried tease this blog with incredible info he must tell. Everyone here would love something real from Mario. But it's clear he's got absolutely nothing and it sucks having him derail people i respect with cryptic mentally ill bull shit. Mario respect the blog and ask questions state your opinions but dude it's ok not to have earth shattering secrets that make you pretend to be at these peoples level. It really sucks to see you pop up after an absence with your riddles an secrets. It totally sucks seeing you back talking nonsense some people take serious and call the real scholars rude because they don't know yet harbour complete joke.

Unknown said...

I apologize for typos and auto correct I didn't catch until I published. That's on me. I dont post but if I do in future I'll be sure to proof read

Unknown said...

That explains everything about you sir. You really crave that 15 minutes. It's not up because it's just not going to happen from nonsense about 2 of the most famous crimes in history. You sure get around to have a connection to O.j. case and the Manson case. What are the odds. I figured It out you're a serial killer? Wow toughest riddle ever but did I get it?

Unknown said...

Agreed. Mario added absolutely nothing of value to this thread and made the discussion hard to follow. Nothing ever is said just his incredible secrets he'll never share but you must believe I know things. It's horrible

HellzBellz said...

"...Paul Tate had left his career in military intelligence and devoted himself to a personal search for her killers. He let his army crew cut grow long, grew a beard and submerged himself in the anti-establishment world from which he thought his daughter's killers had come. He had regularly spent long nights wandering through the Haight-Ashbury District and along the Sunset Strip* in Los Angeles in search of clues."

*Two places where Charlie and crew used to hang out at.

According to PJ, he may have discovered the Manson/Spahn Ranch link on his own, even before the detectives:

Restless Souls by Alisa Statman and Brie Tate c.2012 pg94
PJ surveils Cielo Dr. late at night (Sept./Oct?). Notices two choppers drive up to Cielo and the bikers try to jump the gate before guard dogs chase them off. PJ follows them in his car--they end up at... Spahn Ranch!

Could be wrong...But didnt PJ Tate completely ,,Missed,, it then ?? Didnt Manson&Crew Fled to the Dessert aafter the Spahn Raid ?? Where they were again arrested forgood for Autotheft in October.... I mean IF Tate ,Knew, things , Then He should have been in the Dessert too....

Ken Ashworth said...

Straight Satan's and Satan's Slaves were very tight .Bear in mind, even today, there can be many 1% (outlaw) clubs in a state , but they must yield to the dominant club. Im this case, Mario has revealed the Hells Angels shut down Straight Satan's and "patched over" the Slaves, meaning absorbed them into the Hells Angels.

A club like Hells Angels would nor give a Charlie Manson the time of day.

Also everyone was rising choppers in that day. Just because Mr.Tate saw 2 riders doesn't mean they were members of any known club. ALL clubs wear a "cut" which is readily identifiable. So it is apparent that he followed two random guys back to Spahn.

They could have been anybody.

I don't find it hard to believe that he chose not to document this. Mostly because the riders wore no colors and were otherwise unremarkable except they went to Spahn.

Al Springer verifies to detectives the close tie with the Slaves.

Again, what would be the motive to put this in the book of untrue? I don't know if Debbie Tate and Brie Tate have had a falling out. I do know Brie Tate allows her name to be used which implies she, at least, endorses the veracity of the book.

starviego said...


An interesting article on this subject:

https://www.scribd.com/document/59689390/LA-VALLEY-TIMES-Article-on-Col-Tate-Dec-4-1969
LA VALLEY TIMES, Dec 4-1969
Col. Tate Mum, Was Spy On Hippies
Army Intelligence Lt. Col. Paul Tate, father of slain actress Sharon Tate, was unreachable today and policer eported he is not interested in talking to the press about the arrests of suspects in the case. Witnesses said the 23-year veteran of undercover assignment for the Army throughout the world was at “The Factory” nightclub last night. “The Factory” is one of the more fashionable “in spots” for the party and play set of the entertainment industry. Tate has been observed infiltrating the hippie movement. He grew a beard and mustache and frequented hangouts and coffee houses in search of information.
He visited the offices of the Robbery-Homicide Division almost daily. Said Capt. Hugh Brown, division commander; “He comes in to help almost every day. He was greatly concerned.” The colonel refused to tell newsmen just how valuable the information he may have obtained was to homicide investigators in bringing the names of the suspects to the court and the Los Angeles County Grand Jury. It is believed that his following of the hippie movement for some weeks indicated he was on the right track during his individual investigation or was being briefed by LAPD detectives.

grimtraveller said...

That's a speculative article written at a time when virtually nothing was known and by the time one would have finished reading the article, one would still know virtually nothing.
Within a week however, it was a different story.......