tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post345038961237896005..comments2024-03-27T21:24:06.590-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: In A Summer SwelterMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-73871519607183315902017-10-20T22:51:20.224-04:002017-10-20T22:51:20.224-04:00Mario it’s not my blog it belongs to Lynyrd Skynyr...Mario it’s not my blog it belongs to Lynyrd Skynyrd and Katie works with him.beaudershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14223387983663922713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-77206255571286133622017-10-13T02:53:07.972-04:002017-10-13T02:53:07.972-04:00Mario, curious if you would ever do a walking tour...Mario, curious if you would ever do a walking tour of the construction site and share your thoughts Lynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04857339832418981386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-17786314934682646382017-10-12T20:40:22.473-04:002017-10-12T20:40:22.473-04:00George said...
This gratuitous insulting of is bo... George said...<br /><br /><b>This gratuitous insulting of is born of the myth that "the Manson Family" was a bunch of dirty hippies, a myth promulgated by law enforcement officers who would arrest Manson and the people around him during pre-dawn raids, round them up in the dirt, destroy all of the property in the buildings they were living in, and then take pictures of arrestees and the premises and say, "Look! They were dirty, and this is how they lived!" It's a mindset worthy of George Wallace in 1968 and a malfeasance clearly worthy of LAPD in 1969.<br /><br />The thought that mostly middle-class (or even upper middle-class) young women would descend into living in filth defies common sense. And anyone who sees pictures of any "Family members" that are not sourced from the police can see that they have an obvious tendency towards cleanliness and style</b> <br /><br />Does it defy common sense ? Part of the alternative living of some groups and certainly the Family was turning one's back on "the conditioning" of class, family, school and religious structures. There's been lots spoken about that over the last half century.<br />There are a few indications of the conditions at Spahn & Barker not being exactly salubrious. Al Springer noted the filth of the place which really put him off. The desert rangers that busted the Family at Barkers noted that the clothes of those arrested were filthy, the bathroom was filthy, the mattress in the bedroom was filthy and someone had left a shit in the corner of the living room {in "Desert Shadows". I keep referring to it as Desert Sands for some reason !}. Stephanie Schram, whose interview with Brian Davis back in 2011 was far more complimentary of her time with the Family than not described Barker as being hot and dirty with little food and Spahn's as being dirty with dirty food and she even caught dysentery from the water while Dennis Wilson & Juan Flynn were on the record about the prevalence of STDs.<br />I don't think there's any correlation between the dirt at the various ranches or the lack of personal cleanliness and the murderous activities so in that regard, I think that was a cheap shot on Simon's part ~ but let's not pretend it was a 5* spa designed for Arabian royalty.<br />When I look at photos that are in existence of any of the raids, I don't see a bunch of dirty hippies but even if they were dirty, so what ? The Beatles, the Stones, Donovan and their ilk went through phases where they weren't exactly prime time adverts for Dove soap. Once, the Stones were staying in a hotel where the water was turned off and Mick Jagger issued a sarcastic statement to the press saying "so you can't blame us if we smell !"<br />Where I definitely will agree with you is that clothes wise, the Family, {even Charlie when he had been in the same clothes for a while} had <i>style</i>.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-26425113868632146242017-10-12T20:15:51.798-04:002017-10-12T20:15:51.798-04:00Thanks Strix Thanks Strix Mr. Humphrathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18206702171683458150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-34422957807756166652017-10-12T19:03:44.638-04:002017-10-12T19:03:44.638-04:00The Twitter reference is a tenuos link showing t...The Twitter reference is a tenuos link showing that an ex Hells Angel named George Christie knew some of The Straight Satans and possibly went to Spahn. Nothing on Georges blog indicates he knew Danny De Carlo or Manson.There is a photo showing the Spahn raid featuring Manson and Danny and a one line reference. George has written several books so maybe there's more in there.strix alucohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12484885551409326793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-1125333868948377592017-10-12T11:06:49.083-04:002017-10-12T11:06:49.083-04:00Lol. Cheers!Lol. Cheers!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10291550902325920904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-23250471295930607332017-10-12T10:58:37.227-04:002017-10-12T10:58:37.227-04:00I tried to read some of the stuff from his Twitter...I tried to read some of the stuff from his Twitter site last night, but part of the problem is I don't follow Twitter at all so it looks like shorthand to me. I didn't see any reference or comment from someone who looked they stayed at Spahn's Ranch. I Googled Osterbergs and couldn't see anything which seemed relevant to OJ or Manson.Mr. Humphrathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18206702171683458150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-15603099299541679832017-10-12T09:49:56.712-04:002017-10-12T09:49:56.712-04:00Does anyone actually follow Mario on twitter and h...Does anyone actually follow Mario on twitter and have the slightest clue what he's talking about? Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551377673977145628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-91046501548443502752017-10-12T08:27:56.602-04:002017-10-12T08:27:56.602-04:00Well St Circumstance
I guess you could say I am Ju...Well St Circumstance<br />I guess you could say I am Jurassic.<br /><br />I read this fine blog, I comment and read on katie's/beauders blog, and I have read some of Col Scott's blog. All 3 blogs are excellent, and I have gained knowledge from all 3, and in some cases, all 3 blogs have confirmed some "Items" for me that I know, that are related to <br />The Charles Manson Case and Saga.<br /><br />PS St. Circumstance:<br />I always liked Kazoo......lol<br /><br /><br />Mario George Nitrini 111<br />-------<br />The OJ Simpson CaseAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05778491116485842060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-22765083154900996782017-10-12T07:50:41.977-04:002017-10-12T07:50:41.977-04:00Mario George Nitrini Cubed...
You are like Kazoo ...Mario George Nitrini Cubed...<br /><br />You are like Kazoo from the Flintstones. All I have to do is say your name and you appear lol. 🍻Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10291550902325920904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-82998583170341583712017-10-11T23:23:23.716-04:002017-10-11T23:23:23.716-04:00Thanks, Grimm. Like Mr. Circumstance, my time the...Thanks, Grimm. Like Mr. Circumstance, my time these days is very limited, so even a book that takes a few hours and i am not getting into it is a waste for me. I liked Dreath's synopsis, that was good enough for me.Lynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04857339832418981386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-88393117872790449192017-10-11T23:20:55.596-04:002017-10-11T23:20:55.596-04:00It most definitely would be interesting!It most definitely would be interesting!Lynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04857339832418981386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-21731017125103523422017-10-11T18:04:32.926-04:002017-10-11T18:04:32.926-04:00Mr. ziggyosterberg
Well ziggy, I would highly-dou...Mr. ziggyosterberg<br /><br />Well ziggy, I would highly-doubt that I would write a book pertaining to <br />The Charles Manson Case & Saga. But ziggy, if you've been following my Tweets on my Twitter account, you know "Who" I've been corresponding with who had a "Connection" to The Manson Family while The Family lived at Spahn Ranch.<br />Certain "Happenings" at Spahn Ranch when The Manson Family lived there is NOW my main focus in The Charles Manson Case & Saga.<br /><br />A few blog posts ago, St Circumstance commented about me (OJ lore) and a book in The OJ Simpson Case. I commented back to him:<br />"Maybe pretty soon"<br />But, for me, No, I could NEVER <br />"tell-all" about what's happened to me and how I've gathered information and evidence in The OJ Case. No Way.....<br /><br />But ziggy,<br />Maybe I could pitch a reality show to the networks titled:<br />"How to Keep-up with The Osterbergs" especially: <br />YOU KNOW WHO.....lol<br /><br />Mario George Nitrini 111<br />--------<br />The OJ Simpson CaseAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05778491116485842060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-24365174039105992692017-10-11T17:47:40.169-04:002017-10-11T17:47:40.169-04:00starviego said...
I have to agree that the copyca...starviego said...<br /><br /><b>I have to agree that the copycat theory of motive is the least believable of all</b><br /><br />I wouldn't say it was the least believable. I wouldn't even say it was <i>unbelievable</i>. I just don't think it's true. <br />Every one of the motives put forth have been <i>believable</i>.<br /><br />Lynn said...<br /><br /><b>reading legal information from an attorney sounds like a homework assignment</b><br /><br />Reading through some of the "approach the bench" and in chambers sessions during the actual trial, now there's a homework assignment. Some of it is interesting, some of it is excruciating. My advice ~ only do it when you're not tired or when you don't have a wandering mind.<br /><br /> St Circumstance said...<br /><br /><b>Besides Grim. I want Long strange prison journey of Lulu to remain worst book on TLB</b><br /><br />Have you read Virginia Graham's "Sinatra, Manson and me" ? Be prepared to forego those extra few hours on the end of your life if you do. Books as lame as that, you don't get the time back !grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-55397128661864620612017-10-11T17:46:36.828-04:002017-10-11T17:46:36.828-04:00George Mario Nitrini III of OJ lore....
His book ...George Mario Nitrini III of OJ lore....<br /><br />His book I will read 😉Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10291550902325920904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-66280373584905192182017-10-11T17:39:44.349-04:002017-10-11T17:39:44.349-04:00Thank you, Grim, I appreciate that comment. Thank you, Grim, I appreciate that comment. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551377673977145628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-45505588098582925322017-10-11T17:29:57.542-04:002017-10-11T17:29:57.542-04:00Peter said...
David.
I think you place t... Peter said...<br /><br /> <b>David.<br /><br /> I think you place too much blame on the girls' defense attorneys</b><br /><br />That is one of the reasons why you ought to read the book rather than blindly second guess it.<br /><br /><b>Not interested enough to buy the book</b><br /><br />Some of the TLB books <i>are</i> expensive. I remember when I asked Robert H if I could have "Death to pigs" at a slightly reduced price and he wasn't able to do it. I then made a decision that if I really wanted to find out what various author's angles were on this thing, then every so often, I was going to be looking at a bit of a layout of cash, especially if I was buying them from the US of A with postage included. But I was always like that with rare records too. Learn to do without one thing for a couple of weeks so that I'll have that album forever. Shreck's book was pricey but I considered it a must have and I'm glad I've read it and got it.<br /><br /> St Circumstance said...<br /><br /> <b>I'm sure Schreks book sucked too</b><br /><br />You could never have a valid opinion on that unless you'd read it. It's 991 pages and takes ages to digest. There's quite a lot of stuff there I'd never come across before, much of it being Shreck's opinion. He blatantly stated that Charlie and Sandy had had a falling out and said Charlie was none too complimentary about her and George.<br />Actually, it's a frequent thing among a number of the authors of the various books, this thing of knocking the other authors and their books. Bugliosi does it with Sanders and Davis, Schreck does it with even those that seemingly support where he's coming from and well, we know about George & Simon. It kind of reminds me of the way mechanics here in London so often knock another mechanic's work, "'kin,'ell man, who did <i>this</i> job on your car?" <br /><br />George Stimson said...<br /><br /><b>Davis tries to poke holes in the copycat motive by claiming that if the killers wanted the crimes linked they would have used the exact same writing at all three crime scenes. He writes, "Even allowing for possibly being stoned and usually pretty vacant, one would expect them to get the copying part of the copycat exercise right."</b><br /><br />Yeah, but come on George, is that really unreasonable ? In trying to deflect attention from the "crime of the century" and one of its supposedly kooky {and seen by many as the main} motive by saying "this copycat is the real motive," regardless of thinking or not thinking clearly, it's not a fart in a hot room to question to what degree the copycat actually copies the cat, if you get my drift. In saying what you do about Davis' denigration of the copycat, you kind of shine a light into HS in exactly the same way. "<b>when grounded, smart, educated people look at the actions of people from a druggie netherworld and try to apply their own carefully considered and linear thought processes to people who aren't just 'possibly being stoned and usually pretty vacant' but rather have been snorting amphetamines for a couple of weeks and are beyond not thinking clearly. I can't imagine that writers like Davis have ever done any quantity of amphetamines (or whatever you want to call the speed spectrum of drugs) or even spent any amount of time around (i.e., lived with) people who have. I mean, how can you wonder why they're not acting rationally? You can't even compare your minds. It's like wondering why a lion and a deer don't act alike</b>" could just as easily apply to HS, even with those that have been in the druggie netherworld. grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-42989080709075071662017-10-11T16:36:53.129-04:002017-10-11T16:36:53.129-04:00starviego said...
"I have to agree that ...<br />starviego said...<br /> <br /><b>"I have to agree that the copycat theory of motive is the least believable of all. Bugliosi himself destroyed that theory in his book. Hard to believe anybody takes it seriously."</b> <br /><br />A pimp kick-starting a race revolution in an effort to take over the world is more believable?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-54845854750471609952017-10-11T16:34:48.015-04:002017-10-11T16:34:48.015-04:00St Circumstance said...
"I want Long stran...<br />St Circumstance said... <br /> <br /><b>"I want Long strange prison journey of Lulu to remain worst book on TLB and I think this might give it competition."</b> <br /><br />Mario's upcoming book, <b>"Charles Manson's Secret Construction Site and Me"</b>, might give both of those books a run for the money.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-79176798003939829352017-10-11T16:29:51.247-04:002017-10-11T16:29:51.247-04:00I realized that and was going to correct, but knew...I realized that and was going to correct, but knew it would be too late anyway with the delayed posting.<br /><br />Anyway, would be interested in the competency argument. Untangling the pre-trial transcripts and motions is the hardest part of the case to understand in my opinion. All the multiple substitutions of attorneys. I still can't figure out why they didn't let Manson represent himself? It looked like at one point they were going to, and they the court just steadfastly refused. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-53779252811890737442017-10-11T16:02:50.976-04:002017-10-11T16:02:50.976-04:00Peter,
I was writing a review. Those are Davis...Peter,<br /><br />I was writing a review. Those are Davis' arguments. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551377673977145628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-54897648940897247292017-10-11T15:22:39.476-04:002017-10-11T15:22:39.476-04:00Lynn said...
but reading legal information fr... Lynn said...<br /><br /> <b>but reading legal information from an attorney sounds like a homework assignment</b><br /><br />You know, it's a really easy read. I'm ever fascinated by how some books are so easy and some are so hard. I recently read "Desert Shadows" and it was like pulling my own teeth ! Getting from one word to the next was a real effort and when I would put the book down, it felt like I had been pushing a snowball uphill in the desert at noon. Whereas straightaway after, I read Rosemary Baer's "Reflections on the Manson trial" from 1972. She was the wife of one of the jurors in the trial and apart from the odd haiku or poem, the book reads so easily. I got through it in 3 or 4 days, just reading it in the bath.<br /><br /> Mr. Humphrat said...<br /><br /> <b>I may not read Simon's book because of the legal focus maybe I should though It's the same reason I skipped over some of George's book</b><br /><br />The legal angle is what makes the book and it wouldn't have been in Simon's interest to bog it down with technical jargon. It really does read easy. I find it an easier read than "The Family."<br />I'd also encourage you to read the entirety of George's book. It went a long way towards getting me interested in the legal aspects of the case. In it, he mentioned three parts of Judge Older's directions to the jury that supported the case he was making in the book and when I came across all 108 parts or whatever it was in William Zamora's "Trial by your peers" I forced myself to read every point of the direction given. More than anything else, that transformed not so much my interest but my understanding of the case. I was able to catch exactly why various characters were done for conspiracy and what constituted which aspect of which crime. David has opened much of that up since, but understanding those legal parts has only added to my fascination. If I hadn't tried to get to grips with them, I'd never dare to challenge ColScott on many of the things he keeps repeating. We're fortunate that we have got access to people like George, David and Simon who are able to articulate certain aspects of the law in easily digestible ways. <br /><br /> St Circumstance said...<br /><br /> <b>I may not read it only because I thought Simon came across as a butthole</b><br /><br />I liked him. I didn't agree with everything he said but when he was new, it was our end that started giving him jib initially and he gave as good as he got. There was a lot of crossing of wires.<br /><br /> <b>Also because if it has no new information what is the point?</b><br /><br />New information is kind of in the eye of the beholder. There can be old information but put together in a way that no one else has done so which makes it "new." <br />In this particular instance, you may well come across stuff that, because of the way it is collated, causes you to see certain matters in a somewhat different light. I don't really want to go into details on that because the conversation we'd have wouldn't be anywhere near as fruitful as the one we'd have if we had a relatively shared understanding of the particular point[s] Simon made, the way we can for example, with the long Leslie prison road book.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-23474322651025569542017-10-11T14:24:02.375-04:002017-10-11T14:24:02.375-04:00David.
I think you place too much blame on the gi...David.<br /><br />I think you place too much blame on the girls' defense attorneys. To their credit, they appear to have dissuaded the girls from taking the stand during the trial phase which is what they originally intended to do. They took the position that they would refuse to ask them any questions on direct and even went so far as moving to be relieved as counsel. After the guilty verdicts, the girls got their wish, but to imply that Fitzgerald, Shinn and Hughes were somehow complicit in sacrificing their clients is as tin-foil-hat as anything else that's been raised here. I've read much of the trial transcript and I didn't see anything that rose to even the level of an appealable 6th Amendment issue. To the contrary, I think Fitzgerald was quiet good, given the client he was dealt.<br /><br />I'd ben interested in his reasons for believing the girls incompetent to enter a plea. Not interested enough to buy the book, but interested. My understanding is that the test is the same as that for competency to stand trial, which I think they all clearly had in January of 1970.<br />Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-76869260243617956162017-10-11T13:28:44.120-04:002017-10-11T13:28:44.120-04:00David said...
The copycat crap in the DP phase is...David said...<br /> The copycat crap in the DP phase is part of that.<br /><br />I have to agree that the copycat theory of motive is the least believable of all. Bugliosi himself destroyed that theory in his book. Hard to believe anybody takes it seriously.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-66581827841732823852017-10-11T10:07:27.529-04:002017-10-11T10:07:27.529-04:00Worst book on TLB - I have personally read. Let me...Worst book on TLB - I have personally read. Let me clarify lol. I'm sure Schreks book sucked too among a few others Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10291550902325920904noreply@blogger.com