tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post7638354661145051260..comments2024-03-27T21:24:06.590-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: The MansonFamilyToday.info Files: The Patricia Krenwinkel BiographyMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-69394470488684328692019-02-16T10:46:15.940-05:002019-02-16T10:46:15.940-05:00I can't believe someone would put in print, de...I can't believe someone would put in print, details of a person's sexual experiences.whitelacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800163088246211314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-64959308636933231912015-06-14T16:34:54.313-04:002015-06-14T16:34:54.313-04:00I feel sorry for Pat and many of the players in th...I feel sorry for Pat and many of the players in this saga on all sides of the fence.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-24798819845054975722015-06-11T01:20:39.965-04:002015-06-11T01:20:39.965-04:00Reading Pat's bio was extremely depressing. S...Reading Pat's bio was extremely depressing. Several times I actually caught myself feeling sorry for her. Not because she's stuck in prison (exactly where she needs to stay), but because of the circumstances that lead her to join CM. She was very unattractive and hairy, parents divorced, etc...CM preyed on the weak and that's what makes him really evil!Petey spitstophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15659717490677119620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-11140479743966456692015-06-06T05:29:48.228-04:002015-06-06T05:29:48.228-04:00As to why Manson only sent one man, Tex...well, wh...As to why Manson only sent one man, Tex...well, who else was there to send? Clem was known to be half-cracked: who could say what he would do? Bruce...wasnt Bruce away at the time? Bobby was in jail. Paul Watkins had defected as had Brooks Poston. Who does this leave? <br />Lets say both Tex and Bruce had been available, or Charlie sent in Tex with Clem. There's always a problem when you have two males. Its the butting heads thing. Charlie was a leader to be obeyed. But who would be the leader: Bruce or Tex? <br />Imagine. They'd have been contending for position from the start. They'd have been quarrelling over weapons and order of death... And in addition, how about the fact that three victims were women, one heavily pregnant? It didnt even slow Tex down. Were Bruce and Clem so callous? I tend to think they were not. <br />Tex, on the other hand, was proven callous to women. He, recall, had left his girlfriend in the hands of Lotsapoppa without a second thought and made no attempt to retrieve her, nor apparently expressed any concern. Moreover, he was strung out on speed. Of course Charlie knew. If the guy from Love could be so appalled at Susan's speed=freak filthy Faces-of-Meth condition that he ordered her and Bobby from his house, then Charlie, the super-alert, must have noticed.<br />It was yet another thing he could use against Tex (and Susan) and Charlie seems to have detested them both, so he wouldnt have cared about this destructive drug. <br />I tend to think that the sight of pregnant Sharon Tate might well have stopped Bruce or Clem. Might have brought out chivalry...chivalry Tex had already shown he did not possess. Imagine a violent quarrel between Tex and Bruce, imagine Bruce leaping to save the beautiful helpless Sharon, with her golden hair and great big blue eyes..and the pretty Abigail too...but especially Sharon, a sight to move anyone's heart. ..imagine Bruce getting the gun and turning it on Tex and suddenly finding himself with Sebring dead, Steve Parent dead, and Tex dead..what a shambles...could make a good fanfiction, this. <br />As for the girls. Charlie chose to send three girls because they would obey the male leader, who was speaking with Charlie's voice. Remember the men of the Family often showed independence and fought off Manson's programming: the girls didnt, as they were socialized by the times to give themselves to a man, to change their names to his name and bear his children and do as he said. The men were socialized to independence: hard to pick a man but Tex owed Charlie the Beausoleil/Lotsapoppa debt, he was strung out, he was malleable and fucked up with belladonna and speed. Add now three females who will obey, or who at least will not take the car and run for help. <br />Which females had shown the most obedience and dependence? Katie was totally devoted. Susan totally dependent and Manson believed her to be strong (how wrong he was). Linda is an experienced hardcase who has already stolen for him. All have creepy-crawled. Sandy and Mary are in jail, and Lynn is too unstable and also Manson's favourite. Cappy and Gypsy must have been considered too. The following night, a replacement for Susan is required, and Leslie is asking to go. Plus this involves as many as possible, hence more safety...though also more people to snitch. <br />Who would be your A team?fiona1933https://www.blogger.com/profile/00041216158548547908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-37025325751026297982015-06-06T04:55:58.223-04:002015-06-06T04:55:58.223-04:00That doctor should have been disbarred. It is not ...That doctor should have been disbarred. It is not a doctor's place to 'wonder' if there were looks of fear on someone's face, someone he hadnt seen. He simply twisted everything Patricia said around to make a case for her being hard and cold. <br />As to 'there was no revulsion at the blood-letting' every soldier that has ever lived, every hitman, will testify that the first killing is hard and the next is easy. Its breaking the barrier. I've just been reading Four Hours In My Lai, and one guy stated how after he committed the first killing "My mind just went' and he committed atrocities, scalped people, cut out their tongues...and so did many others. <br />I think it is appalling that there is no justice here at all. All the women who were on Death Row with the Manson girls are long paroled. Yet their crimes were death penalty crimes too. They have kept spotless records...once, that was actually held against Patricia, as showing she still had too much of a tendency to take orders. Damned if she does and damned if she doesnt, all because the Governor doesnt want to be the one who signed their release because the public will then hear a lot of Helter Skelter from his opponent...in other words, its the justice of the mob and the rabble. <br />Its a bad idea to have all your officials elected like this...to have prosecutors elected, so they want to be known for law-and-order, so they have people put away or sent to Death Row who might be innocent...its a mistake. Its better to have people like this appointed, so they can be above pleasing the people who watch Fox News.fiona1933https://www.blogger.com/profile/00041216158548547908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-72501091508987008402015-06-04T09:44:29.503-04:002015-06-04T09:44:29.503-04:00Aside from me regurgitating facts from history boo...Aside from me regurgitating facts from history books, I actually read Katie's bio all the way through, unlike Bruce's. Out of all the people involved in the murders (and this is a weird thing to say) I sympathise with her the most, even empathise a little bit. Both of these bios so far have been very depressing, it's weird & unsettling to see these people only realise any form of 'potential' (as in personal growth & developing socially useful skills) after incarceration. The fact it seemed to have take years for both to fully break from being 'Mansonites' is interesting too; his invention of 'numism' and assigning colours to people is patently just another way of exercising control over them from a distance, but it can't have helped. I would love to know exactly where Sandy and Squeaky now lie on the subject, whether their views have gotten more grounded with time.Guida Diehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06881861444442344243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-81722387176330971712015-06-04T09:43:19.589-04:002015-06-04T09:43:19.589-04:00Godwin's Law is the law of the land around thi...Godwin's Law is the law of the land around this blog, Michael... :)<br /><br />I was just reading today (surprise) about Hitler's method of dictatorship. He preferred not to give direct orders -or even directly involve himself in the 'pettiness' of devising policy or making policy decisions- because if those orders proved to be ineffective or wrong they'd damage his credibility and the cult of personality Germans so willingly threw themselves into. This led towards an organisational structure based around "working towards the fuhrer"- VERY broad directives came down from the top, and as they descended each layer of the hierarchy it was up to individual leaders & their subordinates to interpret and carry out those orders in the context of National Socialist ideology. This created a really interesting phenomenon, a highly effective and all-pervasive dictatorship that was at the same time internally completely chaotic, particularly as many Nazis had very different ideas of what 'National Socialism' meant exactly and as you said Hitler encouraged competition between them. First thing I thought of when I saw Robert's comment, even before he made the Hitler connection himself. I could totally see Charlie not preferring to give absolutely direct orders out of fear they might backfire on him- would provide another layer of explanation as to why he loves to talk in riddles.Guida Diehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06881861444442344243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-56298475027329542362015-06-04T09:11:50.657-04:002015-06-04T09:11:50.657-04:00RH....When I wrote to Lynette back in 1990 I share...RH....When I wrote to Lynette back in 1990 I shared photos of my embroidery and asked her about the vest. She replied that ,"Charlie's vest is in a safe place where no one can get it". Years later I read in the book "Taming the Beast" that Lynn and Sandy sent the vest to Charlie in prison. Inmates became jealous and all wanted a piece of it, so Charlie cut it up and shared it, but said" it will always be in my mind,,,",( where no one can get it? Im guessing). I can't imagine how that must have made them feel to have that vest destroyed, but then again, in prison that would probably be sought after. I think there is some pieces of it floating around with a few collectors. I'm sure it had ALOT to tell if you could decifer through all the threads. As I said, its fortunate you filmed the vest, because it was such an integral part to the girls and now its only alive on film-Candycandy and nutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01871828104812368464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-18345088046571012922015-06-03T19:21:40.079-04:002015-06-03T19:21:40.079-04:00Deb S
I've heard it suggested before that Cha...<br />Deb S<br /><br />I've heard it suggested before that Charlie was a FBI informant. Let's face it, he would have value to them due to the circles he was mixing in - both counterculture and celebrity. Certainly, the facts as outlined by you above would make that a possibility. He seemed to be Teflon coated!! There was also the Spahn Ranch raid with the botched paperwork ensuring the Family's release. Why plan a major raid with law enforcement drawn from a number of counties, photograph it and then let the whole operation go so easily? <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-22183486536212361782015-06-03T18:56:37.039-04:002015-06-03T18:56:37.039-04:00Really thought-provoking stuff DebS. Can I request...Really thought-provoking stuff DebS. Can I request a megapost from you soon, on any aspect of TLB you fancy? Pleeease?MHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765688604319832245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-38479199116217672512015-06-03T18:38:19.405-04:002015-06-03T18:38:19.405-04:00Well, it's not an idea without contradictions ...Well, it's not an idea without contradictions but then Charlie seemed to be full of contradictions. I have trouble getting past the fact that he was a federal parolee who was arrested many times after his release from prison in 1967 but never was sent back for parole violations. Charges were always dropped even for the more serious charge of raping and beating up DeCarlo's wife. How did he manage that? Whatever the reason it must have made him feel invincible and fed his ego. <br /><br />His initial release was unusual, he did not have a regular parole officer (he had a doctor for a parole officer who was doing a study funded by federal money), he did not report in on a regular basis, he didn't have a fixed address or a regular job. When the girls were arrested in Mendocino and HIS child was taken into custody Charlie's "parole officer" and his wife acted as foster parents for the child. Again, how did he manage that?<br /><br />I think Charlie thought he could get away with anything by the time the murders happened, so he might not have thought himself in any real danger of be held responsible. And even if he was held responsible for something it wouldn't be 1st degree murder, maybe accessory and he could do that kind of time, no problem.<br /><br />Then I think back to Bruce's bio of last week and his turning point where Charlie was concerned. Charlie was comfortable in prison, he had become institutionalize. Bruce did not want to be like that. <br /><br />It's an idea that requires more thought and I'm going to work on it!DebShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17093893870315262396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-81064704038718990592015-06-03T16:01:06.745-04:002015-06-03T16:01:06.745-04:00Also, is it not alleged that Charlie was dismayed ...Also, is it not alleged that Charlie was dismayed to hear of the chaos at Cielo and wanted to show them at Waverley how it should've been done? That hardly fits with the idea that he was indifferent to seeing them caught. It also implies that he had some personal stake in proceedings.MHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765688604319832245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-10667858948121572412015-06-03T15:59:28.709-04:002015-06-03T15:59:28.709-04:00DebS
Apologies for my post at 3:34. I should hav...<br />DebS<br /><br />Apologies for my post at 3:34. I should have made that response to Susan B, rather than yourself, about Tex owing Charlie a favour.<br /><br />Interesting point about only one man being sent because the Shea killing involved Charlie, Tex, Clem, Bruce and allegedly another male Family member. Having said that, two women were picked to go with Bobby, although they were only dealing with one male victim. The women gave a signal at the door that Gary was on his own.<br /><br />Again, at Waverley Drive, the actual killing is left to dopey Tex and two women. Strange!! Perhaps their line of thinking is that THEY were armed with a gun and knives, so perhaps they weren't so reliant on muscle. Although, Rosemary LaBianca put up a hell of a fight. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-37497856550753577672015-06-03T15:34:38.221-04:002015-06-03T15:34:38.221-04:00DebS,
Remember that Tex owed CM for the shooting ...DebS,<br /><br />Remember that Tex owed CM for the shooting of Bernard Crowe. At some point, Charlie was going to call on that favour.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-65317138661906334752015-06-03T15:05:59.418-04:002015-06-03T15:05:59.418-04:00Deb S - interesting idea, very interesting. And su...Deb S - interesting idea, very interesting. And supposing it's true that the Cielo 4 were seen by Charlie as destabilizing in those ways you outline, maybe the plan was not that they would be caught, but that they would be tied-in more tightly to Manson, that their loyalty and/or obedience would have to be unquestioning once they had killed. A type of psychopathic team bonding exercise. But then again, maybe it really <i>was</i> as simple as supposing they would be caught and out of his hair; a roll of the dice, a shrug of the shoulders.<br /><br />Sometimes 'dictators' act in ways that surprise us. I know Godwin's Law states that in any long internet discussion someone will inevitably drag in a Hitler comparison, but with Charlie - if we believe Bugliosi - the comparison is at least slightly salient. A young Party member once wrote to Hitler stating that the local head of the Nazi Party was useless, and asking Hitler if he, the young man, could replace him. Hitler's reply was very interesting - he gave no orders, issued no diktats - he stated to the young man that if he wanted the local boss ousted, he should oust him, and if was the right young man for the job then he would succeed. There was almost an air of "what has this got to do with me? Why are you asking for permission?" to his reply. Hitler was ever the social and political Darwinist. If you were the fittest for the task you would succeed - hence his claim not to shed a tear over the destruction of Germany, which had proved itself too weak to win victory. Maybe Charlie did precisely what he always claimed - gave Tex permission to be himself. I don't know.<br /><br />In which case it's still an interesting question... even if it was Tex's idea and not Charlie's, what was the goddam motive?MHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765688604319832245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-61564976074750690792015-06-03T14:30:36.674-04:002015-06-03T14:30:36.674-04:00Although, I've often wondered why Manson went ...Although, I've often wondered why Manson went into the LaBiancas alone leaving Clem outside in the car, and again, why Clem drove off with Charlie instead of being told to enter the house with Tex.,?<br /><br />It makes no sense. Obviously.<br /><br />Did Charlie often enter houses alone on creepy crawler missions? It seems awfully brave for a man of proven cowardice. jl2305https://www.blogger.com/profile/07495451480425957235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-27267451649530451392015-06-03T14:15:03.825-04:002015-06-03T14:15:03.825-04:00I can't imagine why Charlie would have allowed...I can't imagine why Charlie would have allowed himself to be present at the actual scene of the murder prior to the carnage if ultimately his intention was for everyone involved to be caught - why would he not just have directed from afar like the previous night?jl2305https://www.blogger.com/profile/07495451480425957235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-47814862078188270492015-06-03T12:48:32.353-04:002015-06-03T12:48:32.353-04:00SusanB said...
Ive always been slightly puzzled as... SusanB said...<br />Ive always been slightly puzzled as to why Charlie didn't send another guy along to Cielo Dr. Sure, Tex was a big dude & was packing, but another guy for back up ? What if there had been a third or fourth male guest inside the house? Look how Katies hair was pulled hard ( and bravely ) by Abigail Folger, causing Tex to step in. Imagine how different things might've been if some more males were present as guests. Dont know why CM didn't groom another guy or two, like he did Tex. Watson mustve been super soft in the head for Charlie compared to the other guys.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Susan you bring up an interesting point. Why was there only one man sent to Cielo Drive? When you look at the four who went, three of them posed a threat to Charlie in one way or another. Tex had gotten him mixed up in the Crowe situation, Kasabian was cozy with Tex. She had not been with the Family very long but Charlie was pretty adept at reading people and as it turned out Kasabian ended up being the Judas of the group. Susan had been trouble off and on since the time she hooked up with Charlie. She had brought STD's to the group, she had been shunned and told to leave at one point. <br /><br /><br />Maybe these four people were never expected to get away with the murders for as long as they did, maybe it was anticipated that they would be caught in the act and Charlie would be rid of them once and for all. I'm not sure what Charlie's beef would have been with Katie but since this is just a scenario that popped into my head after reading your comment, I'm going to give it more consideration. There may be a fatal flaw in the idea that I'm not seeing right now.<br />DebShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17093893870315262396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-20614748184694820062015-06-03T11:50:30.317-04:002015-06-03T11:50:30.317-04:00It looks more and more likely to me like Charlie w...It looks more and more likely to me like Charlie was the only involved on 8/9 who didn't have any specific motive beyond "..ahh, fuck it". Sadie was there for shits n' kicks, PK & LVH because they didn't want to be seen as weak links, with the very real possibility that they were both maintaining fantastical realities regarding HS & Charlie being Jesus. <br /><br />Tex & LK? Who the hell knows, but it does appear they had their own 'thing' going on seperate from the main family, and shit certainly appeared to introduced to fan around the time she showed up. <br /><br />Maybe the search for motive has been looking towards the wrong people.. ?jl2305https://www.blogger.com/profile/07495451480425957235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-83123267831368025762015-06-03T10:50:48.828-04:002015-06-03T10:50:48.828-04:00YES, YES, we know of ALL the posibilities that may...YES, YES, we know of ALL the posibilities that may eventually create a KILLER, but where is the TRIGGER ?<br /> <br />What exactly "happened" that IGNITED the Cielo Dr. MASSACRE on that AUGUST "Day / Night" ?<br /> <br />Charlie had a NEW young and pretty girlfriend "Stefenie" - so HE was full of plenty good lov'in ! <br /> <br />So IF Manson was the "Devil" why did HE "flip" on that specific DATE. ?<br /> <br />Cause therein lies the REAL "motive."<br /> <br />PS Candy: Where is the VEST now ? Cause maybe the "Vest" contains some answers.<br /><br />Robert Hendricksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02880909248364077567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-30699569178072731962015-06-03T07:21:45.678-04:002015-06-03T07:21:45.678-04:00Sharon Tate was not a movie star. She was a starle...Sharon Tate was not a movie star. She was a starlet. A damn beautiful starlet too. AustinAnn74https://www.blogger.com/profile/06342503212454947554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-40296942392440131372015-06-03T06:50:57.117-04:002015-06-03T06:50:57.117-04:00With regard to motive.... I see it as Charlie bein...With regard to motive.... I see it as Charlie being pissed off not just with Melcher but the whole music biz . Cielo Dr was , in his mind , the embodiment of all he was excluded from. It was the former home of Melcher, it was the current home of a glamorous movie star and he had someone in his corner who knew the inside of the house (Watson) The murders would scare the hell outa Melcher (who would assume he was meant to be the victim) as well as sending an example to society that even though you might be rich, beautiful and well connected, and choose to live in sprawling houses in wealthy enclaves, you're not as safe as those big front gates make you feel. SusanBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01810632766440131167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-25993251354051712042015-06-03T06:32:12.815-04:002015-06-03T06:32:12.815-04:00Ive always been slightly puzzled as to why Charlie...Ive always been slightly puzzled as to why Charlie didn't send another guy along to Cielo Dr. Sure, Tex was a big dude & was packing, but another guy for back up ? What if there had been a third or fourth male guest inside the house? Look how Katies hair was pulled hard ( and bravely ) by Abigail Folger, causing Tex to step in. Imagine how different things might've been if some more males were present as guests. Dont know why CM didn't groom another guy or two, like he did Tex. Watson mustve been super soft in the head for Charlie compared to the other guys. <br />SusanBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01810632766440131167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-48190825888671015872015-06-03T00:21:26.359-04:002015-06-03T00:21:26.359-04:00Motive seems way too complex of an issue to poll. ...Motive seems way too complex of an issue to poll. Maybe a simple Yes/No poll to get the ball rolling.<br /><br />Perhaps..."Do you think there are victims buried at Barkers?"<br /><br />I'm a no.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-40665946882798807602015-06-02T16:18:26.173-04:002015-06-02T16:18:26.173-04:00RH i remembered the line from Manson with Sandra s...RH i remembered the line from Manson with Sandra saying Mary and I were in jail the night of the murders....because ive watched Manson probably hundred times since 1987 ive just not watched it lately,,,it is really the Bible, if you will on the Family,,,nooone else has captured the footage of the vest or armageddon vests et al but you,,,,Col seems again you insult Matt,,,,when his garden is flourishing and yours is full of overgrown weeds,,,,,candy and nutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01871828104812368464noreply@blogger.com