tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post899894679183858706..comments2024-03-28T23:53:16.262-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: Ed Sanders.... On Death Row part 2Matthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-4035613958596172622013-05-08T23:28:53.303-04:002013-05-08T23:28:53.303-04:00Yep & yep. They were pretty good buddies unti...Yep & yep. They were pretty good buddies until Bear's passing.brownricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13464358994525566519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-76221275199266168472013-05-08T21:25:58.240-04:002013-05-08T21:25:58.240-04:00Australia. Didn't owsley live there too? He pa...Australia. Didn't owsley live there too? He passed recently patty remembers.Patty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-59895853138752643342013-05-08T19:04:34.027-04:002013-05-08T19:04:34.027-04:00Patty said:
OH! Cutler not Cutter? Now Patty gets ...Patty said:<br />OH! Cutler not Cutter? Now Patty gets it...<br /><br />yes she is taking the piss<br /><br />No, quite different people but just like any real person, a simple google search should tell you who he is... unlike Cutter and other imaginary playmates.<br /><br />Affectionately taking the piss right back at you :-)<br /><br />Leary,<br />Stark "died" soon after he was extradited back to the US. Sam's been living in Australia for decades.<br />brownricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13464358994525566519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-7227420921813964752013-05-08T14:56:57.835-04:002013-05-08T14:56:57.835-04:00OH! Cutler not Cutter? Now Patty gets it...
yes s...OH! Cutler not Cutter? Now Patty gets it...<br /><br />yes she is taking the pissPatty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-62855992926804165232013-05-08T12:37:43.743-04:002013-05-08T12:37:43.743-04:00brownrice...I love reading about guys like Ron Sta...brownrice...I love reading about guys like Ron Stark and Sam Cutler. Do you know if both are still alive? <br />I wonder how the acid business differed between coasts. I remember how easy it was to buy Orange Sunshine in Harvard Square circa '70-73 but both the scene and quality got nasty around '75. I gotta wonder if that was the transition from free-lance guys to mob-backed exploiters too.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-213743702102740382013-05-08T09:52:28.198-04:002013-05-08T09:52:28.198-04:00If you get the DVD version of GIMME SHELTER, the s...If you get the DVD version of GIMME SHELTER, the special features include excerpts from the KSAN post mortem which is featured in the film, but includes quite a bit more than what was included in the film. it is very insightful as to the vibe at Altamont.starshiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13207679706874165027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-33474899394290797182013-05-08T06:51:06.212-04:002013-05-08T06:51:06.212-04:00orwhut,
Sam's book is entirely anecdotal and I...orwhut,<br />Sam's book is entirely anecdotal and I fear my paraphrasing of it may have put words in his mouth. Here's the relevant extract…<br /><br />"Several of the Bay area chemists had managed to get samples of that batch of bad acid and they were adamant that it was not manufactured by any of the California street chemists, all of whom formed a pretty tight little underground cabal.<br /><br />They all agreed that the bad acid given away at Altamont was pressed on a machine of a type that can only be found in the upper reaches of the legitimate pharmacological industry. Such a machine would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, which was beyond the reach of the underground chemists.<br /><br />And even if the underground chemists had been able to afford such a machine, the federal anti-drug agencies were monitoring the manufacturers of these machines and would know of anybody who had purchased one. To purchase such a machine would make being busted an absolute certainty. Of course, such a machine would have been readily available to federal agencies if they required it."<br /><br />He says lots of other stuff that's very interesting as well but he probably wouldn't want too much of his book splashed around the internet for free, It's a great memoir… well worth the read. And oh yeah, the tabs were 1600 mics not 1200 as I earlier stated. Blame it on my poor memory…brownricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13464358994525566519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-25063228883363171162013-05-07T22:38:55.581-04:002013-05-07T22:38:55.581-04:00Browneice said...
Indeed, the only machines of th...Browneice said...<br /> Indeed, the only machines of that ilk were either in the hands of huge drug companies or the government.<br /><br />Did Mr. Cutler offer any proof that the government posessed these tabbing machines?orwhuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14689926449812436866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-20298298830730918402013-05-07T21:40:42.843-04:002013-05-07T21:40:42.843-04:00Patty,
the BEL were taken over by a guy called Ron...Patty,<br />the BEL were taken over by a guy called Ron Stark the same week that the Tate/LaBianca murders happened. Stark went on to pretty well flood the world with acid (thanks Ron). In the 70s, he went on to do time in various Italian prisons, infiltrate a number of left & right wing terrorist organisations and eventually put his hand up as a CIA agent so as to get himself released by the Italian authorities. Interesting guy…<br /><br />Whilst examining the general mafia/intelligence community take-over of the acid biz in 1969, ya might wanna have a look at Altamont (which according to all the official histories was the other great nail in the coffin of the 60s along with the Watson murders). <br /><br />Sam Cutler (the Rolling Stones & later Grateful Dead tour manager- the guy left holding the can after Altamont) in his excellent book "You Can't Always Get What You want" talks about how Altamont was flooded with free acid…. ridiculously strong acid (1200 mics a tab)… acid that none of the Brotherhood or other underground cooks had ever seen before or could identify. <br /><br />They COULD identify the fact that it was tabbed very professionally… on the sort of tabbing machine that none of them had access to. Indeed, the only machines of that ilk were either in the hands of huge drug companies or the government. <br /><br />He also talks about how the actual Stones tour was pretty well taken over by the mob.<br /><br />Not sure if that has any relevance to your BEL theories but I've always found it verrrrrrrry interesting….brownricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13464358994525566519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-69922250075538002232013-05-07T19:49:29.641-04:002013-05-07T19:49:29.641-04:00of course you're right Farflung, plenty of les...of course you're right Farflung, plenty of lessons to be learned. But I thought you were talking just about the trial and such. The police can always learn - and clearly they hadn't by OJ trial and others - like getting the date on the search warrant correct.<br />The police always deserve the benefit of the doubt but their performance in TLB was laughable.<br />My original point was I just don't think much can be learned from the trial of Manson and the girls simply because they made a farce out of the proceedings.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-74039205342826238532013-05-07T19:18:35.087-04:002013-05-07T19:18:35.087-04:00Me either and I have been working on that like Sci...Me either and I have been working on that like Scientology my sister...<br /><br />I will have something to say when I am thoroughly studied and ready....<br /><br />Patty gave me one of my top 5 subjects about this period of all time and I am really grateful<br /><br />:)St. Circumstancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15415891591944887206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-13811275161307652612013-05-07T18:54:30.729-04:002013-05-07T18:54:30.729-04:00that and BROTHERHOOD OF ETERNAL LOVE. Patty ain...that and BROTHERHOOD OF ETERNAL LOVE. Patty ain't lettin' it go quite yet.Patty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-34004289849108749632013-05-07T18:18:14.073-04:002013-05-07T18:18:14.073-04:00Panamint Patty said...
Santa Barbara at that tim...Panamint Patty said... <br /> Santa Barbara at that time ws a BEL stronghold.<br /><br />As a retired military member, BEL to me means "Behind Enemy Lines". Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-23582538631523245922013-05-07T17:03:58.654-04:002013-05-07T17:03:58.654-04:00Leary7 pontificates:
“… the only judicial lesson...Leary7 pontificates:<br /><br />“… the only judicial lesson to be learned from Manson is you don't look a gift horse in the mouth.”<br /><br />I believe there are a few UPstream ‘gift horses’ which may have been ignored by the judicial system.<br /><br />When did Manson become a delusional psychopath? Was it a binary occurrence, or like most cancers, were there increasing indicators and signs which are much easier to deal with via early detection? It seems that the malignancy which ultimately manifested in the summer of 1969 had been quite detectable in some of the previous years. <br /><br />Around 1968, President Johnson pushed through some legislation which part of Title 18 of the United States Code, section 922, making the possession (meaning touching one) of any firearm, by a Felon (Manson), punishable by up to TEN years in prison. Sure seems like getting a compulsive law breaker off the blotter for a decade could have been done with Manson firing or possessing any of the dozens of guns on the ranch, or with the one he used to deliver a gut shot to Crowe. At least this appears to be a much simpler, cheaper, and quicker way to remove Manson from society till 1979, when he could try again. <br /><br />Apparently when Manson delivered that live round of ammunition to the Beach Boys manager (or whoever), that was enough to throw him into the system for another stint. His felonious past appeared to be no secret to anyone in his social circles. Manson listed Spahn’s as his residence and it was filled with firearms from the raid, why didn’t the judicial system act? No lessons to be learned? Really?Farflunghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17723130825592879022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-72820564471502414832013-05-07T16:02:33.078-04:002013-05-07T16:02:33.078-04:00Lessons from Manson as a way to hone the future of...Lessons from Manson as a way to hone the future of the judicial system???<br />A delusional psychopath who attacked the judge, had to be removed from the courtroom on numerous occasions and finally refused to put on a defense?<br />While I respect your thesis the only judicial lesson to be learned from Manson is you don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Charlie convicted himself with his antics and his actions. He played right into Vince's hands, as did his followers with their slavish devotion (watch video of the crawl to the courthouse).<br />There are plenty of lessons to be learned from TLB but from my perspective they are more cultural and social rather than criminal or judicial.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-35303984623775852912013-05-07T15:44:54.220-04:002013-05-07T15:44:54.220-04:00I think your very wise...
Great thoughts!I think your very wise...<br /><br />Great thoughts!St. Circumstancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15415891591944887206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-40700870959831507912013-05-07T14:56:06.218-04:002013-05-07T14:56:06.218-04:00I agree with your premise Saint, and agree that Ma...I agree with your premise Saint, and agree that Manson and Family are correctly catalogued and housed. It’s the justice system which gives me heartburn in a Charles Dickens-onian way, where if that’s the law, then the law is an ass.<br /><br />Bernard Crowe apparently chose NOT to press charges against the Manson Trinity of: Charles, Tex and TJ, for what that group had long assumed to have been a successful murder. Without getting too ‘Butterfly Effect-ish’, imagine what would have happened if those three ended up serving a few years for attempted murder. But with the fantasy of 20/20 hindsight and the following murders viewed as preordained, it is a bit too much to assume.<br /><br />If Crowe was in fact killed, the option of pressing charges become de facto, with the presence of evidence, which supports the burden of proof by the state. What kept the DA from going after Charles, Tex and TJ once there was evidence of their culpability with shooting Lotsapoppa?<br /><br />Three women have just escaped an ‘alleged’ kidnapper in Cleveland this week. Should they be given the option of pressing charges? What if they say it wasn’t that bad after all and they just want to put it behind them? This is the sort of procedural stuff which I find baffling and unnecessary. There’s evidence of a crime, then things should continue on autopilot.<br /><br />Did Bugliosi have a tougher time with Manson’s particular participation? Absolutely. It’s just a matter of how far down the rabbit hole one needs to travel in order to complete the task at hand. I’m certainly no expert and Bugliosi was successful in gaining a conviction, but added an immense amount of complexity in the process (Helter Skelter, race wars, underground cities, coded messages on The White Album, copy cat killings, on and on). More complexity typically will lead to some systemic failure before the more simplistic solutions (retrials, reversals, and releases). The common thread associated with Lotsapoppa, Hinman, Tate-LaBianca, and Shea was: the firestone which is Manson. Manson did shoot Crowe, cut Hinman, tied the LaBiancas, and beat Shea, according to testimony free of the Helter Skelter chaff which has clouded this tale for so long. I too give Bugliosi kudos for his ultimate success, but I also feel there is some room for lessons learned, as a way to hone the future use of the justice system.Farflunghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17723130825592879022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-29488518070763582982013-05-07T13:53:50.718-04:002013-05-07T13:53:50.718-04:00Farflung...
I agree with most of what you say
I ...Farflung...<br /><br />I agree with most of what you say<br /><br />I think the ONE reason people THINK a motive was necessary here is because Charlie wasn't hands on and without a motive that involves him- he walks on the most serious charges...<br /><br />I am not sure that I agree with that, but I have heard the argument made as to this being the reason bugs made up the H/S lie..<br /><br />I have over and over heard it called Bugs creation/lie/ etc...<br /><br />I just don't agree he made it up. The overall importance of it, and how much it had to do with the murders is suspect. The exsistance of it is not. <br /><br />So if Bugs repeated to a jury what he was told over and over by those who were there- and he showed the jury physical evidence of the family using the phrases themselves, and then marched family member after family member in front of them to verify it...<br /><br />I think that is different from what Sanders and the others do when they ask you to believe something...<br /><br />maybe not any more true ultimately- but more reasonable at least. And I am not arguing H/S is correct, just pointing out that many many people throw it out as a product of Bugs making up parts of the story for personal gain, and I think that is exactly what Sanders and a few others have done.<br /><br />I agree Farflung- Bugs wouldn't have needed a motive to win this one. The family made it that easy for him ... but I think he was given a gift in a basket from the family and people now resent him for doing his job and reporting what he found and what the witness' told him...<br /><br />He had his murderers he knew it and he got them put away. many of us criticize how often Charlie was allowed to get in and out of jail while on probation. We wonder if these crimes could have been prevented if the system would have kept Charlie off the streets. Bugs got that done. Maybe he saved a few others who would have gotten it down the road? I don't know, but maybe...<br /><br />kudos is one word I never hear about Bugs- he gets it from me<br /><br />Not saying he would have been right to make something up just to get Charlie. saying that he didn't have to. It was presented to him and he ran with it...<br /><br />As a result a career criminal was taken off the streets for good...<br /><br />and there is no doubt about that<br /><br />St. Circumstancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15415891591944887206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-4622724516646890002013-05-07T13:05:52.510-04:002013-05-07T13:05:52.510-04:00The use of various motives like Helter Skelter, dr...The use of various motives like Helter Skelter, drug rip-offs, and films featuring the savage exchange of bodily fluids, among the clan have primarily mystified me; because they are distracting, deflecting, and utterly irrelevant. That is regarding how justice is delivered.<br /><br />Motive (Helter Skelter) is NOT a requirement for conviction. Motive is something lawyers assume the jury pool demands, in order to reach a verdict. I simply don’t understand this perspective since a video of a robber shooting and killing a store clerk, is typically good for a guilty vote, sans the addition of what motivated that robber. Why make something unnecessarily complicated? That extra requirement is like adding another reel to a slot machine, or an additional number to the lottery, in order to win, and the inclusion is an exponential burden rather than linear.<br /><br />The Manson murders contained plenty of loose mouthed participants, who blabbed about their deeds within hours of their completion. Brunner testified about Hinman, Kasabian on Tate-LaBianca, with Poston, Watkins, et al, on the Shea murder. It really doesn’t seem that complex or mysterious until the many, many motives are tossed into the mix. Is there some ambiguity about Tex walking up to Steve Parent and shooting him to death? The ambiguities exist with what Parent was doing at Cielo, his relationship with Garretson, the sale of a Sony clock radio, his involvement with theft, drugs, homosexuality, and whatever else is salacious enough to develop legs and run for forty years. Then add a layer about what motivated Tex Watson with drugs, music contracts, a social debt to Manson with Lotsapoppa, a copy cat killing to free Beausoleil, or a source of money to free Brunner, just to name a few.<br /><br />Even though there is much debate about the various motives, and a wicked desire to attach other killings to the Family (Zodiac, Pugh, Hughes, and whatever), I’ve not come across anything which exonerates any of the Family members in the clink. Brunner avoided a murder trial via a technicality which the DA fumbled, Squeaky was released in Stockton for a ‘lack of evidence’, not an abundance of innocence, and TJ managed to avoid attempted murder charges thanks to a ‘professional courtesy’ extended by Bernard Crowe. That’s a lot of malfeasance oozing through the cracks in my book, and fodder for better conspiracy theories than Helter Skelter.Farflunghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17723130825592879022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-91824454344977701882013-05-07T12:32:27.166-04:002013-05-07T12:32:27.166-04:00lol sometimes I loose myself :)lol sometimes I loose myself :)St. Circumstancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15415891591944887206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-26031272429265665842013-05-07T12:25:29.923-04:002013-05-07T12:25:29.923-04:00Thanks for clearing that up. I enjoyed your rant....Thanks for clearing that up. I enjoyed your rant. :)<br />orwhuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14689926449812436866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-40755002843417894182013-05-07T11:37:34.617-04:002013-05-07T11:37:34.617-04:00me either lol
I don't disagree with you actua...me either lol<br /><br />I don't disagree with you actually but didn't realize that until after my long winded rant was over...<br /><br />He is very entertaining...<br /><br />I disagree with some of the things he has said and written...<br /><br />but not with you- sorry :)St. Circumstancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15415891591944887206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-32994956728074689052013-05-07T11:28:54.431-04:002013-05-07T11:28:54.431-04:00St. Circumstance said... I disagree respectfully.....St. Circumstance said... I disagree respectfully... ( Well it was an entertaining book- so not entirely- but I have issues with Sanders)<br /><br />St. Circumstance,<br />I appreciate your respectful disagreement but, I can't figure out which of my seven words you disagree with.orwhuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14689926449812436866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-77275401940044114452013-05-07T11:19:01.004-04:002013-05-07T11:19:01.004-04:00the problem remains, and will always remain, the p...the problem remains, and will always remain, the people want to assign reason and logic to the actions of Charlie and the wackadoodles. There was no reason and logic. Charlie wanted war, convinced himself and others that 'pigs' deserved to die, and then hit the wall with Bobby's arrest and the Crowe paranoia. He lashed out, ensnaring seven other Family members with dirty hands. Hats off to TJ and Ella Jo and others who said no.<br />The true story itself is interesting enough, but conspiracy and what's behind door number three is always more fun.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-51054530956753768512013-05-07T11:14:58.488-04:002013-05-07T11:14:58.488-04:00The one part that makes me go "Wtf" when...The one part that makes me go "Wtf" when I read about the murder of Gary in Sander's book was when he said Kitty saw Gary's vehicle and did a garbage run. Kitty had no idea what was going on.. she only found about what Bobby did until AFTER he got arrested..Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16392890925888602526noreply@blogger.com