tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post916753565229289879..comments2024-03-27T21:24:06.590-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: Letter from Joanne to Sandy GoodMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-56337887816109129172017-04-09T14:02:56.889-04:002017-04-09T14:02:56.889-04:00Thankz DebS , I guess I wouldnt have found out eas...Thankz DebS , I guess I wouldnt have found out easily that it must be the GuestHouse.... I GuessHellzBellzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17922649120979516836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-88941890099241159542017-04-09T11:23:49.823-04:002017-04-09T11:23:49.823-04:00HellzBellz, the case number at the bottom of the p...HellzBellz, the case number at the bottom of the pictures is the case number for the Cielo Drive murders. Since we know that the pictures cannot be the main house the only option left is that they are pictures of the guest house.<br /><br />Here's a picture of the guest house posted at Cielodrive.com . Same room, just a little to the left.<br /><br />http://www.cielodrive.com/photo-archive/guest-house-interior-01.php<br />DebShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17093893870315262396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-66678644709294104532017-04-09T10:16:31.369-04:002017-04-09T10:16:31.369-04:00http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/helter-skelter...http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/helter-skelter-revisited-inside-the-manson-family-murders/ar-BBzqU77?li=BBnbfcL<br /><br />This was the link/URL that Orwut posted on April 5th.<br />If you go to that Video and pause from 01:17 till aprox 01:19 you see CrimeScene Photos of a living room,(No Victims) Two photos are next to eachother shown. One with a White Towel on the couches, and in the other one the same room, only then, without the White Towel, and a Painting on the wall removed... My question: Wich living room in wich house is that ??HellzBellzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17922649120979516836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-29973190753709107892017-04-09T09:49:53.610-04:002017-04-09T09:49:53.610-04:00@ Matt: I do know that your comment is meant a lit...@ Matt: I do know that your comment is meant a little sarcastic, But In that particulair Mindset you can count Gary Hinman as an ,,Understandable Reason,, too, In Mansons warped mind Hinman had money. So in a way Shorty was not the only one. And with that in mind; More people are killed for $$$ Money than killed for just being Hated.... HellzBellzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17922649120979516836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-2470460904655700072017-04-09T07:42:53.356-04:002017-04-09T07:42:53.356-04:00Shorty was the only one killed for an understandab...Shorty was the only one killed for an understandable reason: They hated him...<br /><br /><br />Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-57931206738427812012017-04-08T21:33:38.319-04:002017-04-08T21:33:38.319-04:00DebS said...
why won't LA release those tapes... DebS said...<br /><br /><b>why won't LA release those tapes? The reason cited is that they might contain information about a murder or murders in an ongoing investigation. The Stubbs, Tennerelli and Pugh deaths, which have been given as possibles, per the LA Times, are not in LAs jurisdiction</b><br /><br />I suppose that if Tex <i>had</i> given information back in '69 relating to some other murders that were not in LA jurisdiction and Police forces from those jurisdictions were investigating, then letting those tapes out for public consumption would be a crazy move. Other than leaks, which nearly always cause some kind of bother, things like tapes or transcripts of old interviews don't see the light of day until well after they have any bearing on anything.<br />I think Tex in a way has thrown a cat among the pigeons by trying to block use of the tapes, especially given that he waived any rights to any say as far back as the mid 70s when he signed away such rights of privilege in letting Chaplain Ray hear them.<br />It all comes back to that perception that the "Manson Family" were responsible for more murders than they ever got done for ~ and you can't blame people for that, when you have a situation where Bruce and Clem {and earlier, Kitty and DeCarlo} implicate Tex in Shorty's murder and Susan Atkins boasts of lots of other murders and Sandy & Squeaky make comments threatening to deal with snitches or justifying murder. It does make people wonder. Even when Darwin Scott gets murdered in Kentucky, people {Vincent T !} start to wonder if there was a Family connection. And because there has been a 45 year history of half truths, outright lies and story changes connected with so many of the Family or former members, but especially the convicted, it's natural that folk will connect certain dots even though they may well be way off base. What Bugliosi and Gentry articulated in print is, in truth, only what many thought before....and have continued to do so.<br /><br /> ColScott said...<br /><br /><b>It turns out that most of the "Retaliation Murders" are not even murders at all</b><br /><br />Good point. The one retaliation murder was that of Shorty and that's rarely seen in that light.<br /><br /> St Circumstance said...<br /><br /><b>I learned not to believe every Word Bugs said in HS literally. This shows how a true sentence can be used to lead readers in a false direction. I fell for it too</b><br /><br />There are a number of assertions and suppositions to be wary of in HS. It's brilliantly imperfect. But there are certain aspects of it that even detractors of the book and prosecutor mirror/parrot, such as the theories trying to tie people to deaths they weren't responsible for.<br /><br />Sime's World said...<br /><br /><b>It didn't take more than one read of the letter from Joanne to Sandy Good to see how detectives had twisted an otherwise innocuous part of the letter to turn it into a possible link to a Manson related "murder"</b><br /><br />For me it's interesting that Joanne was able to locate Sandy in an Independence motel. Sandy must have been in some sort of contact which indicates that maybe Sandy hadn't fully cut ties with people in her pre~Charlie life. Bugliosi says that the letter was from an unidentified ex~Family member but I've long wondered how he could know that the person was an ex~Family member if the person was unidentified !<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-78266149205254088142017-04-08T13:08:55.230-04:002017-04-08T13:08:55.230-04:00Thanks again guys :)Thanks again guys :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10291550902325920904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-34250101846674331152017-04-08T12:49:18.077-04:002017-04-08T12:49:18.077-04:00I'm in agreement with Grim. Saint, stop deleti...I'm in agreement with Grim. Saint, stop deleting your comments :)<br /><br /><br />Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-77801624279605251422017-04-08T12:45:02.095-04:002017-04-08T12:45:02.095-04:00St Circumstance said...
Grim I don't need to ... St Circumstance said...<br /><br /><b>Grim I don't need to defend my position</b><br /><br />Yeah, I know that. But you did defend it and it was damned good to read. Primarily because you very eloquently pointed out that what you had been saying was not in fact off topic. Sandra Good is part of the topic so anything said regarding her is in fact on topic. It may be oblique or somewhat left field but it's on topic.<br />Furthermore, there's nothing wrong in being long winded or even self absorbed, especially if it is contributing to what is being written. Much great art could be described that way. Some of the greatest pieces of music ever could easily be described that way.<br />I agree with MHN here though. The description doesn't fit you. Suze's does, however.<br /><br /> Sime's World said...<br /><br /><b>it's nice to read all the comments and gratifying to witness how many share in my desire to present Joel as a person, not just some grizzly statistic tagged onto the end of a chapter</b><br /><br />Paradoxically though, he has absolutely nothing to do with the story at hand, other than the fact that he used to go out with one of the minor characters in it and another character had been in the same city that he died in 7 months before. Yes, he is a person in his own right but none of us would have heard of him if he hadn't once known Sandy. There's loads of people we don't have the slightest clue about ~ because they didn't die ~ that had once known someone that ended up knowing Charles Manson.<br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-83494786646450041392017-04-08T11:21:10.207-04:002017-04-08T11:21:10.207-04:00Amazed at all you can find.Amazed at all you can find.dawnnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04575732399499776165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-12423956850590270252017-04-08T09:43:55.336-04:002017-04-08T09:43:55.336-04:00Much love to you all - it's nice to read all t...Much love to you all - it's nice to read all the comments and gratifying to witness how many share in my desire to present Joel as a person, not just some grizzly statistic tagged onto the end of a chapter.<br /><br />I hope to post on another angle of the case soon.<br /><br />All best,<br /><br />Si x<br />Sime's Worldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16000593518302539593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-55235781948763817412017-04-08T08:06:17.166-04:002017-04-08T08:06:17.166-04:00Much love both of you ;)
And I don't think B...Much love both of you ;) <br /><br />And I don't think Bruce killed Joel - just to keep it on topic Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10291550902325920904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-62753992642412700612017-04-08T07:19:44.873-04:002017-04-08T07:19:44.873-04:00I always look forward to St's comments and esp...I always look forward to St's comments and especially his posts because he speaks from the heart rather from any self-absorbed, self-righteous attitude of thinking he knows more than someone else.Suzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17042563411146539890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-23570314506410996742017-04-08T07:12:00.192-04:002017-04-08T07:12:00.192-04:00Saint C is long-winded and self-absorbed? Saint C ...Saint C is long-winded and self-absorbed? Saint C hijacks every thread? Saint C?!<br /><br />Is this a friggin joke?<br /><br />Of all the posters here, St C is the one getting that thrown at him?<br /><br />This is some very dark comedy.<br /><br /><br /><br />MHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765688604319832245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-88675986982711282072017-04-08T06:55:05.575-04:002017-04-08T06:55:05.575-04:00Grim I don't need to defend my position.
Thi...Grim I don't need to defend my position. <br /><br />This is a blog for people to comment on the subject of the post and that's what I will continue to do as long as it amuses me. <br /><br />What I will no longer do is take the bait and lower myself to the level of going back and forth with jealous losers. <br /><br />It gets me nowhere, takes the fun out of it for me, and really does highjack the post. Nobody wants to read those petty back and forths<br /><br />Despite what anyone says- that is never my attention. I thought Sandy was a subject of this post. <br /><br />Simon if I drew away from your efforts in any manner- I apologize. <br /><br />When a published author on the subject is kind enough to contribute I think we are lucky and that so many have and do is why I love to read and participate here. <br /><br />If my comments about Sandy were too off track I am sorry. I will try to keep my ideas shorter and more on point <br /><br />:)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10291550902325920904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-2913507925059145442017-04-07T20:02:21.608-04:002017-04-07T20:02:21.608-04:00Sime's World said...
And furthermore, any ser... Sime's World said...<br /><br /><b>And furthermore, any serious investigation would have surely taken into account the state of Joel's mental health at the time of his death</b><br /><br />One would think so but I'm wondering whether or not we're seeing it through today's eyes where mental health is so high on the agenda. The London scene obviously took his mental health into account because that is almost standard when a suicide is ruled as the cause of death. But the LA troupe were batting on a different wicket. They were dealing with a situation where a man was accused of ordering brutal murders while being nowhere near the scene when they took place and not having issued direct instructions to most of the participants so they were already looking at someone that possibly had some serious <i>reach</i>. By the time they learned of Joel's death and the connection to Sandy, the fact that Bruce had been in England that year and the rumours of his drug misuse and his disappearance and proximity to Zero's death, all this outweighed any rational thinking about where a guy had to be within himself to end it all.<br />But a similar thing happened in England with the death of Brian Epstein, the Beatles' manager, during the summer of love. It wasn't until some years later that the details of his unravelling became public knowledge sufficient to cause people to ask if he had indeed deliberately overdosed.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-64395763138106684922017-04-07T19:33:51.383-04:002017-04-07T19:33:51.383-04:00This comment has been removed by the author
One t...<b>This comment has been removed by the author</b><br /><br />One thing that does get annoying about St though, is the amount of stuff he deletes ! The comment that was deleted was a spirited defence of his position and I agreed with it and it should have remained. <br /><br /> Suze said...<br /> <br /><b>Joanne's letter to Sandra seems to me to be lighthearted girl talk. For his own enrichment Bugliosi turns it into a sinister reference to an unsolved murder</b> <br /><br />There is perhaps some overview and context to the Pugh situation and a good deal of overcompensating going on. It all goes back to Jess Buckles. <br />When Detectives Whiteley and Guenther came to speak to him on Aug 10th to share about the Hinman murder, he was very quick to brush them off and declare that it was a big drug heist. One can be sympathetic to him and say that he didn't take it seriously because LASO already had a suspect that had been in custody during Cielo ~ but that wasn't the 2 Detectives' point. Their point was that <i>others may have been involved and this similar murder meant it was a lead that should be checked.</i><br />When Steve Zabriske walked into a Police station and told the cops that a 'Charlie' and a 'Clem' had committed the TLB murders, the cops were not at all impressed and did not follow it up. They didn't try to find Vern Plumlee who supposedly told Zabriske this.<br />It turns out that Whiteley, Guenther and Zabriske were bang on. And once it sank in that these seemingly ridiculous wild cards had in fact been right, I think it completely changed the way LE approached the Family and murder, especially when Susan Atkins' tales of killings out in the desert and her celebrity hit list became known. Whether they were the exaggerations of a drugged out attention seeker were secondary to the fact that one of the Tate murderers provided corroboration that only someone present could have. When you put these together with examples of police incompetence {having the murder gun for so long, for instance} the cops and LE in general seemed determined to be seen to be on the ball and after that, any death of anyone connected with the Family was looked at suspiciously, even if the connection was tenuous. When Randy Starr died, Bugliosi had his death looked into but it turned out to be an ear infection that caused it. When Ron Hughes died, Bugliosi believed that Sandy admitted that it was a retaliation murder but it was an off camera remark supposedly heard by a cameraman who, as far as I'm aware, has never verified this. George says Sandy says she never made such a remark. When Paul Watkins camper caught fire and he nearly died, that he fell asleep while smoking was overlooked in favour of the more juicy Family attempt to kill him because of rumours that were circulating to that effect {Watkins said Clem later boasted of starting the fire though Watkins didn't believe it}. And Joel we all know about. The Family didn't exactly help itself with the Barbara Hoyt incident, the Hawthorne gun robbery, the connection with the murders of James and Lauren Willet {however tenuous} and later, Squeaky and the POTUS. <br />From a starting position of not taking findings connected with them seriously, subsequent events led LE to basically seeing the Family as being responsible for the death of pretty much anything that moved and it's in this atmosphere and context that Bugliosi's ill founded comments fall into. Perhaps.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-1391106187140117602017-04-07T08:31:28.184-04:002017-04-07T08:31:28.184-04:00In the seventh grade our English teacher gave us n...In the seventh grade our English teacher gave us newspaper assignments. Mine was to read the local sports pages of our paper that covered my high school sports teams as well as the paper of our rival a few counties away. As a kid it was enlightening how the other paper's headlines were big and on the back page if they won. If they lost it would be a small article inside the paper.<br /><br />The same thing occurs just on a more sophisticated level in the national media. With the Manson case it seems no interviews with Manson were conducted without baiting and agitating him because it made for good TV. Ron Reagan was the only one who just interviewed him and let him answer the questions. The differences were astounding.<br /><br />Joanne's letter to Sandra seems to me to be light hearted girl talk. For his own enrichment Bugliosi turns it into a sinister reference to an unsolved murder. <br /><br />Thank you Simon for being the Pugh family's Ron Reagan.Suzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17042563411146539890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-37134340343764397092017-04-06T20:43:42.283-04:002017-04-06T20:43:42.283-04:00Sime's Word said: "To me it would appear ...Sime's Word said: "To me it would appear that several greedy personalities were eager to join the tenuous dots together for their own careers."<br /><br />Yep. Bugliosi seemed to think there was some kinda direct correlation between the number of murders claimed and the number of zeros tacked on the end of his publishing advance.brownricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13464358994525566519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-25821368458287373652017-04-06T20:17:17.545-04:002017-04-06T20:17:17.545-04:00rRob King (Leary) said....
...time for me to exit...<i>rRob King (Leary) said....<br /><br />...time for me to exit Matt's proper little tea room on mass murder.Better places to be. That's for sure.</i><br /><br /><b>Don't let the door hit you on the way out</b><br /><br /><br />Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-78774638862857442832017-04-06T19:18:48.955-04:002017-04-06T19:18:48.955-04:00And furthermore, any serious investigation would h...And furthermore, any serious investigation would have surely taken into account the state of Joel's mental health at the time of his death. Again, no approach was made to family and/or physician(s) to determine this - despite the coroner's belief that his mind was unbalanced. Sime's Worldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16000593518302539593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-57137725499439570422017-04-06T18:36:36.072-04:002017-04-06T18:36:36.072-04:00Grim: I agree - only two people really know what ...Grim: I agree - only two people really know what happened - and Bruce won't discuss it. He declined my offer to put the record straight once and for all. Sad that he did that. Maybe I will try again one day. From what is known, there is no evidence to suggest a hit on Joel by a Manson associate. Pugh had long since moved on from Sandy, and despite keeping up on her movements through mutual friends and word of mouth, he only had contact with her (AFAIK) once following her defection to M. There was no marriage, no child (despite the name), no possible claim on Sandy’s allowance - which was in no way in the region quoted by Stephen Kay, no visits to Spahn's or any other "Family" dwelling. He also had several other girlfriends following Sandy - Joanne "possibly" one of them. Joel's best friend James Balfour certainly remembered her. <br /><br />To me it would appear that several greedy personalities were eager to join the tenuous dots together for their own careers. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Sime's Worldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16000593518302539593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-50763613783313393872017-04-06T17:44:25.605-04:002017-04-06T17:44:25.605-04:00DebS said...
Joel's death, allegedly at the h... DebS said...<br /><br /><b>Joel's death, allegedly at the hands of another, is one of those myths that still persists to this day</b><br /><br />I guess that unless Bruce comes out and admits he did it, it will remain a myth. <br />I know the hotel that Joel died in and the surrounding area has barely changed since the time of his demise. There are just too many things that militate against Bruce having done it, not least the glaring absence of any evidence that Bruce even knew Joel Pugh, let alone knowledge that he'd be in Europe, then London then the exact hotel then the exact room. The room Joel died in is at the back parallel to the train tracks and for Bruce to get in, he'd have to know the room and he'd have to rely on the windows being open ~ unlikely on a December's day in London. Even with global warming, it's bleedin' cold !<br /><br />Sime's world said...<br /><br /><b>Letter from Joanne to Sandy Good</b><br /><br />@George....<br />Does Sandy remember who Joanne was ? For all we know that may have been the last ever contact between them. How many of us would leave a letter in a hotel when checking out except by mistake ?grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-18612929654733496822017-04-06T17:30:59.080-04:002017-04-06T17:30:59.080-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10291550902325920904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-39810142719105455422017-04-06T17:24:51.328-04:002017-04-06T17:24:51.328-04:00Rob King said...
Saint can be both long-winded an... Rob King said...<br /><br /><b>Saint can be both long-winded and self-absorbed and he has hijacked many a thread with his pontifications</b><br /><br />I guess the proof of the pudding is in whether long windedness and self absorption actually detracts from what a person has to say.<br />Personally I think having a range of different characters with different writing styles makes for a wonderful collision of diversity and from that, one can take or leave particular persons. There are some contributors that I can't really get with because they say so little, but that's me. Almost everyone has things of interest and value to say at <i>some</i> point, even if it feels like one is having to mine it out of the ground at times.<br />For me a forum is like a conversation {or a living book} and I don't know about anyone else, but conversations I have rarely stick on the initial topic exclusively. They jump all over the gaff.<br /><br /><b>reality is that a Deb/Cielo?Col debate would have be a rare treasure on this site</b><br /><br />Of course, that's a matter of opinion but the reality is that St didn't prevent that from happening. There's little to prevent Deb S, Scotty and Cielo {and for that matter anyone else} entering a prolonged debate ~ if that's what they want to do. As yet, they haven't really wanted to.<br /><br /><b>I was just plain pissed when the thread took a left turn to your pal's ruminations on Sandy - a subject that has been bled to death</b><br /><br />One thing I've noticed is that many points that I make don't get commented on. What that tells me is that if someone is interested in a particular thing, they'll comment on it and if they're not, they won't. You can't really blame the <i>pontifficator</i> if a few contributors happen to have thoughts on something they've said. Some of the really good long debates on this and other sites down the ages have come from the most surprising of starts. <br />And while Sandy as a subject may have been bled to death for some, for others she just might be an angle that they've never paid much attention to before.<br /><br /><b>But I do sense it is time for me to exit Matt's proper little tea room on mass murder</b><br /><br />You come from a different angle much of the time and as a result, your thoughts and observations are generally worth reading and provide good food for thought.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.com