tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post1332954080521376780..comments2024-03-27T21:24:06.590-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: Irving Kanarek, Lawyer Who Defended Charles Manson, Dies at 100Matthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-10792853575332910182021-02-01T13:07:03.652-05:002021-02-01T13:07:03.652-05:00I burst out laughing when i first read this, Kanar...I burst out laughing when i first read this, Kanarek was funny. Reading about the trial in the Bug's Helter Skelter was one of the most enjoyable reading experiences ive had.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14581480161815422600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-51443863829016755992020-10-03T05:45:09.184-04:002020-10-03T05:45:09.184-04:00Amy shoot me an email: matt at MansonBlog dot comAmy shoot me an email: matt at MansonBlog dot comMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-2995202933950552262020-10-02T00:45:54.255-04:002020-10-02T00:45:54.255-04:00My father is also a criminal trial attorney. He w...My father is also a criminal trial attorney. He was very great friends with Irving. They have huge history together. My father lost contact with Irving years ago. My dad very sad about his fate. Irving lived with my dad and 2 older sisters in the Valley for a time. They lost communication years ago. I never met him but my family tells of many funny, crazy things he did. My dad hoping to connect with his kids. anyone that can help...<br />. thanks AmyAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10701896550485247602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-78973767717497049992020-09-17T14:28:36.627-04:002020-09-17T14:28:36.627-04:00there are many characters, large & small, in t...there are many characters, large & small, in thee manson saga, but the irv is a favorite of mine, & even though his life after manson was troubled, to say to the least, i was moved to read he reached 100 years. his ability to tear apart a question is beyond words. RIPbooboohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16993478625745420696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-33310570995591553852020-09-14T18:11:25.988-04:002020-09-14T18:11:25.988-04:00The decision by the appellate court on Manson'...The decision by the appellate court on Manson's appeal lays out what the corroborating evidence was. Seems pretty thin to me, but apparently pretty thin is all you need. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-23638781823527512962020-09-14T17:58:45.521-04:002020-09-14T17:58:45.521-04:00I assume ea motion was made for a directed verdict...I assume ea motion was made for a directed verdict or whatever it is in a criminal trial, although Kanarek's motions were often not well argued or even well contemplated. And the decisions are just as often made off the cuff. I suppose the prosecution's closing argument would sum up the "evidence" and jury instructions would lay out the issues of fact to be decided. Do they have jury instructions in criminal cases?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-1459384569268365622020-09-14T17:52:10.290-04:002020-09-14T17:52:10.290-04:00That would make an interesting topic for a post. &...That would make an interesting topic for a post. "Did the prosecution actually prove its case against Manson based on the admissible evidence." I think I would tend to agree with Kanarek that they did not. Regardless of the fact that I think Manson was guilty. I guess that's why Helter Skelter was so important, it was the only non-co-conspiritor testimony implicating Manson. All the testimony by Lake, DeCarlo, Melcher, Poston, Watkins, etc. What was the corroborating physical evidence? A pair of leather thongs? A broken sword that may have been carried at one time by Manson?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-48215595600318501752020-09-11T12:53:02.626-04:002020-09-11T12:53:02.626-04:00I sometime wonder if Grogan would have gotten paro...I sometime wonder if Grogan would have gotten paroled at all if Shorty was not pretty much alone in the world. He did not have a Doris Tate watching over himMatthew https://www.blogger.com/profile/17147415819068597641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-56793790750207852162020-09-11T03:24:13.538-04:002020-09-11T03:24:13.538-04:00Unknown said:
Kanarek made another observation I&... Unknown said:<br /><br /><b>Kanarek made another observation I've often wondered about. Irving told Cats that Grogan's brother was instrumental in getting him sprung from prison. His brother was in the California State Police and engineering the parole and extremely low key release from prison</b><br /><br />It was actually that interview that first alerted me to what might be Irving's deteriorating mental state. At the time I had no idea what had happened to him or anyone else connected with the case as I was fairly new to TLB blogsites and I'd not come across any books that took a long range backward view at the players in the saga and what had happened to them. There was a thread about it on Cats' site and I remember pointing out a number of things he said that were demonstrably untrue or highly suspect. It's a shame that site ceased to exist because there was so much valuable archive material in it and lots of really intelligent and well thought through discussion among a large host of characters. I always liked the way Cats would be so protective of Irving but wouldn't shut down points people made about him that weren't exactly complimentary.<br />As for the Grogan parole thing, I have my doubts that a cop has the kind of clout that can wiggle a parole at state level. I think Grogan's parole came through a combination of factors and that there was no media fanfare when he was released was a good thing. His remaining on the straight and narrow has long been the fly in the ointment for those that say that ex Family members couldn't get away from the mindset they were entrenched in back in the day and it's ironic that him of all people should end up being the poster child for second chances and redemption. When I first read "Helter Skelter" he was anything but.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-73412632326608425732020-09-10T23:30:11.474-04:002020-09-10T23:30:11.474-04:00Kanarek made another observation I've often wo...Kanarek made another observation I've often wondered about. Irving told Cats that Grogan's brother was instrumental in getting him sprung from prison. His brother was in the California State Police and engineering the parole and extremely low key release from prison. Clem had been on the streets for a couple weeks before the public was aware he was out. Irving knew about this and I've never heard this from any other sourceShorty's pistolshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02020425188377980683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-70596736902212023092020-09-10T19:05:58.319-04:002020-09-10T19:05:58.319-04:00AstroCreep said...
I would also tend to believe... AstroCreep said...<br /><br /> <b>I would also tend to believe that California lawmakers (in 1970) had some idea or heard rumblings that the death penalty would be overturned</b><br /><br />Well, it was an argument that was in the wind for a long while. That it was overturned after being overturned indicates that it wasn't a foregone conclusion before it was overturned !<br /><br /> <b>therefore making his defense more of a delay than any sort of “my client is innocent”. I could be wrong but something that I’ve always thought to be true</b><br /><br />Kanarek, unlike Paul Fitzgerald, maintained right to the end that not only did the prosecution not prove its case and that Charlie was convicted on hearsay, but that he was actually innocent. He was in there long before Nicholas Shreck, before Michael White, before George Stimson, before AC Fisher Aldag, before the Col.....I've read him say it in articles, I've heard him say it in <a href="https://www.mansonblog.com/2014/06/defending-indefensible-lawyers-on.html" rel="nofollow">interviews</a>, and this long after the death penalty was overturned. He was saying it up until he died. He pretty much said it to Tom O'Neill, pretty much said it to Catscradle77. Perhaps he just couldn't accept that he lost and stuck to a "Manson is innocent" mantra, but I think he believed it which is partly why I think he was delusional in some aspects.<br /><br /> <b>Linda sealed the case and try as he might, Kanarek couldn’t break her</b><br /><br />Yet he was of the opinion in many interviews over the years that the prosecution didn't prove its case. He actually stated that is why he didn't bother to put on a defence. He felt there was nothing to defend against. Which is one of the reasons I wonder about him.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-22351347595981300962020-09-10T10:21:31.481-04:002020-09-10T10:21:31.481-04:00Severe untreated mental illness is how (I suspect)...Severe untreated mental illness is how (I suspect) you go from rocket scientist to lawyer to homeless, Colonel.Trilbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12310843050495075993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-85774332417523090022020-09-10T10:19:40.805-04:002020-09-10T10:19:40.805-04:00Poor man. God rest his soul.Poor man. God rest his soul.Trilbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12310843050495075993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-70833726139877303782020-09-07T17:13:22.144-04:002020-09-07T17:13:22.144-04:00Inter alia. Inter alia. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-27619780026602225022020-09-07T13:42:23.452-04:002020-09-07T13:42:23.452-04:00Peter- I am not a judge because my judgement is no...Peter- I am not a judge because my judgement is not for saleColScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04198505620789173534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-50781005376263560512020-09-07T11:57:59.787-04:002020-09-07T11:57:59.787-04:00"...purported non-fiction entitled Helter Ske..."...purported non-fiction entitled Helter Skelter..."<br />Dan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-20917700567302552362020-09-07T11:47:22.519-04:002020-09-07T11:47:22.519-04:00Manson keep his mouth shut...if the sun refused to...Manson keep his mouth shut...if the sun refused to shine....<br />Great point though about evidence. There was Only eyewitness testimony from coconspirators which needs corroborating evidence to be introducedDan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-54192748819737296752020-09-07T07:28:33.409-04:002020-09-07T07:28:33.409-04:00That's why you're not a judge.That's why you're not a judge. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-53153315118701356642020-09-06T20:29:09.903-04:002020-09-06T20:29:09.903-04:00http://online.ceb.com/calcases/CA3/108CA3d327.htm
...http://online.ceb.com/calcases/CA3/108CA3d327.htm<br /><br />this is must reading- Kanarek suing BUG for defamation. He lost but he's right imoColScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04198505620789173534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-83001026439192909302020-09-06T11:52:18.037-04:002020-09-06T11:52:18.037-04:00There would have been no physical evidence to corr...There would have been no physical evidence to corroborate any of the co-conspirator statements that he was at La Biancas. He wasn't at Tate's and that while case relied on "now is the time for helter skelter" and "leave something witchy". There was no physical evidence of him at Hinman's or with Shorty. He would have been back at Spahn in six months. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-79001094130769890612020-09-06T11:35:49.501-04:002020-09-06T11:35:49.501-04:00If Manson had severed his trial and kept his mouth...If Manson had severed his trial and kept his mouth shut, he would have walked.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-55191762917369959012020-09-06T10:59:05.122-04:002020-09-06T10:59:05.122-04:00TabOrFresca,
Thank you. The story sounds like a t...TabOrFresca,<br /><br />Thank you. The story sounds like a tall tail but I guess it isn't.<br />orwhuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14689926449812436866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-21564355019336619082020-09-06T10:43:12.189-04:002020-09-06T10:43:12.189-04:00If it was just cielo then there's a possible d...If it was just cielo then there's a possible defense for CM. I don't see how you get him out of waverly. Once you establish he was in the car, and i believe this was admitted by everyone, he's knee deep in conspiracy.Dan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-79701656869272734402020-09-06T09:39:06.287-04:002020-09-06T09:39:06.287-04:00My opinion of Kanarek has changed over the years. ...My opinion of Kanarek has changed over the years. Initially, after reading Helter Skelter, I believed him to be an obstructionist asshole but after seeing a few interviews with him, he’s a super detail oriented person and can’t answer even the simplest of questions without backstory and/or incredible detail and context. <br /><br />I would also tend to believe that California lawmakers (in 1970) had some idea or heard rumblings that the death penalty would be overturned therefore making his defense more of a delay than any sort of “my client is innocent”. I could be wrong but something that I’ve always thought to be true. <br /><br />He had a difficult task trying to defend Charlie. Likewise, Bugs made Kanarek out to be a formidable opponent probably more to make himself look more the victor than anything else. Linda sealed the case and try as he might, Kanarek couldn’t break her. I think he knew that and his delay tactic was the only option from Linda forward- AstroCreephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14400828131305289484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-37877114031822379272020-09-06T08:52:34.019-04:002020-09-06T08:52:34.019-04:00I had a sort of uncle that reminded me of Irving. ...I had a sort of uncle that reminded me of Irving. I remember back in 2002 when a story made the news here about an American man that was suing KFC because of his heart condition. He used to go in there almost daily for years and quaff out on fried chicken and I think he had a heart attack. Anyway, when I commented on how ridiculous this was, this uncle {who was himself a lawyer} really flew into one and gave me this lecture on the importance of the law being tested and how the guy was right to sue. <br />There was something very Kanarek about his logic but I must admit, what he had to say was interesting and I've never forgotten it.<br />I still think the suing guy was being ridiculous ! <br /><br /> kraut_iznota_knotsy said:<br /><br /> <b>"Get me this Kanarek."</b><br /><br />Irving Kanarek could be pictured, with sufficient stretching of the imagination, as almost the legal mirror image of Charles Manson. So it remains one of crime's hugest ironies that Kanarek refused to do what Charlie wanted done in terms of his defence.<br />Seriously. He was just like Charlie. Stubborn, tunnel visioned {acid notwithstanding}, taking orders from no one. He's what Charlie may well have been if he had been a lawyer but without the psychedelia.<br /><br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.com