tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post1635348283760453378..comments2024-03-28T23:53:16.262-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: The Story Of The "Helter Skelter" DoorMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-13434918472670806562023-09-11T16:15:58.301-04:002023-09-11T16:15:58.301-04:00The Spahn Ranch door, seized November 25th, would ...The Spahn Ranch door, seized November 25th, would have to have been painted after the August murders, since the Beatles' Abbey Road album, featuring the lyric, "1234567 all good children," wasn't released in the US until October 1st. David Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16922448335999985198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-42641060408466077752015-06-28T15:57:19.016-04:002015-06-28T15:57:19.016-04:00Kevin Marx said...
"@grimtraveller - there&#...Kevin Marx said...<br /><br />"@grimtraveller - there's not much physical evidence to strongly support any of the motives"<br /><br /><br />I agree. Possibly that's why the prosecution doesn't have to prove motive. The actual physical evidence can only prove {in some cases} that someone was <i>there</i>, not whatever reason they had for being there.<br /><br /><br />As a complete sidetrack, an interesting line from William Zamora's book "Trial by your peers" crops up when Linda Kasabian is on the stand and being questioned about helter skelter. He was one of the jurors on the case and he records "Linda said she saw 'Helter Skelter' written on a jug in the parachute room <i>and on some door,</i> but she couldn't remember where." The book was published a good year before Helter Skelter and much was taken from notes he made during the trial.<br />Just one of those little things that stand out only because it's been a hot topic here recently but which would otherwise have passed under the radar.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-79958738288558077252015-06-27T20:54:59.557-04:002015-06-27T20:54:59.557-04:00Welp,
For me, we all did crazy things when we wer...Welp,<br /><br />For me, we all did crazy things when we were 23. Or around that age. It may be easier now to moralize when you or 60 goddamned something, now that you are old and out of the game, and nobody really gives a rat's ass what your pre-senile mind thinks anyways...<br /><br />I'll say one last thang, and I won't bother with arguments on 2015 blogs after this.....when you were young and had a head full of alcohol and drugs, would you want some sober, birn again, sold out hippie on his Walmart laptop passing judgement on you 40 years later?<br /><br />Birds make mistakes in life. All of life is redeemable, with apologies to my low testosterone Presbytieran friends who got it right the first try.TomGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17647303118718364687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-88429302166782440312015-06-26T18:17:41.000-04:002015-06-26T18:17:41.000-04:00@George Stimson
"...Roman Polanski was not l...<br />@George Stimson<br /><br />"...Roman Polanski was not looking forward to family life with a woman who he increasingly came to believe would end up looking like Doris Tate..."<br /><br />LMAO. Cruel, but very funny!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-60139757928420943172015-06-26T14:45:36.817-04:002015-06-26T14:45:36.817-04:00It has never been proven that Dorgan was even a bi...It has never been proven that Dorgan was even a biker let alone a Straight Satan.beaudershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14223387983663922713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-22697759788141979992015-06-26T13:19:14.301-04:002015-06-26T13:19:14.301-04:00Some good theories I've heard recently is that...Some good theories I've heard recently is that it was a revenge hit by the Satanic elite on Roman for "revealing too much" with Rosemary's Baby. I guess they didn't want anyone to know elderly jews can impregnate woman through magic and that Satan looks like a guy in a rubber costume. <br /><br />Even better is the one I heard about all the kids surrounding him were being mind controlled by the CIA who were apparently using rock music, fake satanic cults and LSD to achieve this goal and Manson was dragged into what they did and took the fall for it all. That's actually a different take on the actually theory, which is he was working for the CIA and used mind controlled. But the person I know just wants to absolve Charlie of any wrong doing whatsoever, even if it means resorting to theories that are equally if not more absurd than what Bugliosi presented.<br /><br />Nelson being the Zodiac is believable, actually.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-36524253996053191412015-06-26T12:49:46.600-04:002015-06-26T12:49:46.600-04:00Okay, this is what really happened: Roman Polanski...Okay, this is what really happened: Roman Polanski was not looking forward to family life with a woman who he increasingly came to believe would end up looking like Doris Tate so he arranged for Tex Watson (whom he had met through mutual dealings with Terry Melcher) to kill Sharon and the others and then commit a copycat crime (LaBianca) to make the Cielo murders look like part of an insane pattern (Hollywood script mentality working there). It had nothing to do with Crowe or Hinman. CM was pretty much a hapless bystander who had no involvement with any of it. <br />(And Bill Nelson was the Zodiac Killer.) <br />George Stimsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01335003151229883480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-33816044259638298522015-06-26T10:47:02.157-04:002015-06-26T10:47:02.157-04:00Welcome D. LaCalandra: Both "Death to Pigs&qu...Welcome D. LaCalandra: Both "Death to Pigs" and "Zebra Murders"<br /><br />That's kind'a like a Special treat for Sundays ( vanilla ice cream with strawberries and lots of goodies mixed in.)<br /><br />TOO rich for some, BUT you get what you pay for.<br /><br />Robert Hendricksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02880909248364077567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-46145263925939495202015-06-26T04:32:42.288-04:002015-06-26T04:32:42.288-04:00When you buy a jigsaw puzzle from a thrift store, ...When you buy a jigsaw puzzle from a thrift store, and there are pieces from four different puzzles, none of them complete, plus a couple of random Lego blocks.<br /><br />That's what we have. We'll never finish this. We may as well invent what we want. Which is why I'm sticking to the satanic truth.<br /><br />Fun.<br /><br />(PS - is it true that in the USA you call Lego 'Legos'?)MHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765688604319832245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-39686755341180214552015-06-26T02:13:15.027-04:002015-06-26T02:13:15.027-04:00All this talk of race war in the news these days. ...All this talk of race war in the news these days. Geraldo even mentioned everyone's favorite boogyman, Charles Manson. Michael Savage, or should I said Wiener did too. Yet nobody mentions the ZEBRA MURDERS or Colin Furguson.<br /><br />I skipped through that book on the Zebra Murders after reading "Death to Pigs". I wanted to see if any of those guys were locked up with Charlie. Within the first chapter, one of them was in McNeil probably at the same time. Makes you wonder if he might have heard something, what did he say about black muslims and things going on in the sewers? Maybe Helter Skelter wasn't the vision of a demonic hippie guru but any actually plan he heard about and knew was coming.....and which eventually did with the Zebra Murders. Maybe those two Scientologist kids were the first.<br /><br />This is not to say I think he really believed in that Helter Skelter shit or that it was the motive. If anything, it was a half-baked, metaphorical fantasy and slang word for what was happening in that particular time and space and it's questionable how much of it was his idea and not a collective group thing.<br /><br />One thing to point out though. All accounts of Helter Skelter from people like Brooks Poston mentioned NOTHING about Manson igniting it or committing random killings. It involved no mention of blacks killing in areas like Beverly Hills (which a lot of them changed their story too). But when they took the stand, some went as far as saying Manson talked of writing "pig" in blood on the walls.That differs from something witchy and we know what those girls wrote was their own idea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-67939300978956638282015-06-25T18:42:23.416-04:002015-06-25T18:42:23.416-04:00@grimtraveller - there's not much physical evi...@grimtraveller - there's not much physical evidence to strongly support any of the motives. The blood writing can of course be used to support some of the other motives aside from the drug burn motive but in terms of physical evidence its still not much. <br /><br />The physical evidence to support a drug burn would have been long consumed/spent by the time of the arrests at Barker. And as I said earlier I accept that its light in terms of evidence - that's still not swaying me towards another motive - at the moment anyway, who knows what I'll think tomorrow! :)<br /><br />I agree that we have to be careful when trying to apply logic - we're looking at this with the benefit of hindsight, clear minds (relatively in some cases lol) etc and are not caught in the maelstrom that the people involved found themselves in. As Harold True said 'you can't scribe reason to crazy people'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-3544389736440730862015-06-25T17:40:27.926-04:002015-06-25T17:40:27.926-04:00Michael Hloušek-Nagle said...
"grimtraveller... Michael Hloušek-Nagle said...<br /><br />"grimtraveller, you're applying logic and commonsense. Usually those are admirable qualities. But...<br /><br /> You do know we're debating motive in the TLB murders, right?"<br /><br /><br />Well, yeah. But the logical bit is ascribed to the prosecution !<br />The bit about helter skelter continually showing up shows <i>consistency</i>......<br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-10538959887802854492015-06-25T17:24:30.737-04:002015-06-25T17:24:30.737-04:00Kevin Marx said...
"Slaughtering 7 people a... Kevin Marx said...<br /><br /><br />"Slaughtering 7 people a) because you want to ignite a race war b) because you're pissed off at not getting a recording contract or c) because you want to copy another crime will always seem more far fetched than because you want to make money from drugs"<br /><br /><br />And yet no evidence appeared to support it. <br /><br /><br />"I do take your point about the 60s and the times etc but first and foremost these people were petty criminals who liked to take drugs. This was their lifestyle everyday"<br /><br /><br />Which is precisely why a lot of our logic won't apply. When you put those two unstable elements together, anything is possible !<br />As you say, they had among their number petty rather than hardened criminals. And pretty tame ones at that.<br />Until Crowe & Hinman. Then the edge hardened. grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-56896536169514217802015-06-25T17:23:04.901-04:002015-06-25T17:23:04.901-04:00grimtraveller, you're applying logic and commo...grimtraveller, you're applying logic and commonsense. Usually those are admirable qualities. But...<br /><br />You do know we're debating motive in the TLB murders, right? ;p<br /><br />(enjoying your contributions very much, by the way).MHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765688604319832245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-22666497283951984852015-06-25T17:12:54.390-04:002015-06-25T17:12:54.390-04:00Robert Hendrickson said...
"That Hatami, Man...Robert Hendrickson said...<br /><br />"That Hatami, Manson, Sharon, Melcher, Atrobelli Tate HOUSE incident(s) actually demonstrates how Bugliosi "created" Helter Skelter and certain sub-motives so the mentally disadvantaged would have something to talk about while they stood in line at the city park fountain - for a drink of water" <br /><br /><br />Blimey, Bob ! That's a bit harsh !!<br />There again, I suppose I could be classed as mentally disadvantaged in relation to jungle or Arctic survival. <br />But seriously folks {I was jesting}!<br />If you check out police interviews and early defence lawyer interviews involving Virginia Graham, Ronnie Howard, Brooks Poston, Danny DeCarlo and Leslie Van Houten, to name some, some of which appeared before Bugliosi was even assigned to the case and some that he never got to hear, it's interesting to note that Helter skelter kept cropping up again and again ~ and this is all from 1969.<br />Only a fool would have ignored it. Only a deaf person could have. Even if it turned out to be a load of horseshit, it at least had to be investigated, same way the drug angle was because of the amount of drug related stuff that initially turned up.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-20311270063203926402015-06-25T17:12:53.014-04:002015-06-25T17:12:53.014-04:00@Robert Hendrickson
Said: "ME thinks Alvaraz...<br />@Robert Hendrickson<br /><br />Said: "ME thinks Alvaraz just "maybe" may have some answers. Bad boys are known to tell their "mistresses" things they would NEVER tell even their wives."<br /><br />Mr H,<br /><br />That's exactly what I have been thinking. Alvarez and Bugliosi got together not too many years after the trial, therefore there's a good chance she would ask him about the case. It's debatable whether a publishing house will take her on - I suppose it depends on how many juicy tales she can come up with. She obviously waited until he passed away to avoid being sued, so it might contain some TLB related material.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-65405811495831223422015-06-25T14:05:56.463-04:002015-06-25T14:05:56.463-04:00That Hatami, Manson, Sharon, Melcher, Atrobelli Ta...That Hatami, Manson, Sharon, Melcher, Atrobelli Tate HOUSE incident(s) actually demonstrates how Bugliosi "created" Helter Skelter and certain sub-motives so the mentally disadvantaged would have something to talk about while they stood in line at the city park fountain - for a drink of water.<br /><br />Robert Hendricksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02880909248364077567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-36086804024766295312015-06-25T11:56:37.324-04:002015-06-25T11:56:37.324-04:00So Robert - you don't buy Altobelli's stor...So Robert - you don't buy Altobelli's story of Manson's prior visit to Cielo, where Altobelli and/or Hatami made it abundantly clear that they wanted him off the premises?<br /><br />The only thing I find unbelievable about Altobelli's story is that the woman who married miniature human weasel Roman Polanski would've described Christ-like Manson as "that funny-looking man".MHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765688604319832245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-80109284972640375762015-06-25T11:40:08.929-04:002015-06-25T11:40:08.929-04:00@Kevin Marx
And Harold True also said (in his int...<br />@Kevin Marx<br /><br />And Harold True also said (in his interview with Stovitz) that Charlie asked if he could live with them and Harold said it was up to the other guys, so Charlie asked them and they said no.<br /><br />The Joe Dorgan thing is kind of funny, because that, combined with Kitty Lutesingers info on Hinman, is what got Charlie's name put on a list of suspects in the Second LaBianca Homicide Report. And if the Joe Dorgan/Suzan Struthers-LaBerge/Straight Satans connection was just coincidence, then what shit luck it was picking that house!<br /><br />The black book thing is another curiosity/oddity. I think it might be a metaphor or something that Charlie just threw out there to get people thinking that he was mobbed up, but you never know. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-64207436906552743912015-06-25T11:07:17.455-04:002015-06-25T11:07:17.455-04:00Robert.
Real food for thought in that summary. Re...Robert.<br /><br />Real food for thought in that summary. Real food for thought...<br /><br />I think I have indigestion.MHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765688604319832245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-21627735775131714842015-06-25T10:59:46.921-04:002015-06-25T10:59:46.921-04:00Hate to leave such a great discusion here so let&#...Hate to leave such a great discusion here so let's recap.<br /><br />(1) Crowe and Shea were personal to Charlie (save the ranch)<br /><br />(2) Leno LaBianca (if Black Book story true) personal to Charlie<br /><br />(3) Hinman (Charlie active participant, but why)<br /><br /> AND of those 4 KILLINGS Charlie was also at the scene<br /><br />(4) THUS we are left with the biggest ????? at the TATE house<br />and let's be honest. In American CULTure it's celebrities who get most of the attention.<br /><br />So IF Charlie avoided the TATE scene, it most likely was NOT personal to HIM.<br /><br />BUT "TEX" and Tate House - now that was PERSONAL or we can through out ALL the standard "crime-scene" textbooks.<br /><br />AND therein was Bugliosi's greatest challenge - to make the TATE house "personal" to Charlie, IF he was to GET Manson (as the LEADER)<br /><br />ME thinks Alvaraz just "maybe" may have some answers. Bad boys are known to tell their "mistresses" things they would NEVER tell even their wives.Robert Hendricksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02880909248364077567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-70999704487642274972015-06-25T10:46:32.097-04:002015-06-25T10:46:32.097-04:00@Ziggy - yes the La Biancas murder is much more mu...@Ziggy - yes the La Biancas murder is much more murky and more complicated, especially when you also consider the elusive black book factor. Its easier to make a direct connection between killers and victims at Cielo than it is at Waverley - although according to Harold True, Charlie did stay at his house for about a week or ten days. There is also the Joe Dorgan link.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-51749163030921334182015-06-25T10:15:27.724-04:002015-06-25T10:15:27.724-04:00@Kevin Marx
The drug burn motive also fits the p...<br />@Kevin Marx <br /><br />The drug burn motive also fits the pattern of the previous 2, where they get (or attempt to get) money out of the victim and then kill (or attempt to kill) the victim. In the Tate case it could be money or drugs or both. I've always wondered if maybe the LaBianca murder is a red herring, designed to throw off the police after Tate, but even in that one Charlie sought money from the victims before they were killed and he took Rosemary's wallet with him.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-79570706117020377772015-06-25T09:00:11.782-04:002015-06-25T09:00:11.782-04:00Ziggy - you're totally right. I have often tho...Ziggy - you're totally right. I have often thought exactly that about the drug burn motive - and the next logical question would be did Tex go there with the intention to a) just commit a drug burn or was it to b) commit a drug burn AND kill everyone. If it was the latter then you could certainly attach any of the other motives as secondary motives before the fact.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-52598952677752355152015-06-25T02:06:17.282-04:002015-06-25T02:06:17.282-04:00Robert, now we're having fun, the way God inte...Robert, now we're having fun, the way God intended. But the major problem is that neither Frykowski nor Parent (surname aside) is anyone's idea of a mother figure.<br /><br />So my guess is he was enjoying the liberty and the license of being God and Devil in one person, of really putting people through some changes, because regardless of what society or mommy says about rules and ethics, that's the power God and the devil have.MHNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765688604319832245noreply@blogger.com