tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post4947569536708078358..comments2024-03-28T23:53:16.262-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: What was the influence of Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" on the Family?Matthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-79386554232747647492023-10-25T13:03:02.201-04:002023-10-25T13:03:02.201-04:00Another reference to Charlie's literacy from C...<br />Another reference to Charlie's literacy from Charlie's PO:<br /><br />from the book--Will Cavanaugh, My Life in Crime - A Moderate Look at Crooks pg104<br />...in February of '69.. we spent about an hour and a half together (in San Bernardino) ....he had a very sharp mind and gave evidence of having read widely.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-23450944549515670592019-03-01T09:23:57.922-05:002019-03-01T09:23:57.922-05:00This might sound way off..... Not first time heari...This might sound way off..... Not first time hearing of Stranger in Strange Land<br />....... As u mentioned, Heinlein knew Hubbard which leads into process etc. Hole among holes. Is it possible this was psy op experiment based off of Stranger? As to say the whole thing was loosely orchestrated and the book may have been in their programming? Or trigger? .... Hope I don't sound too spooked. Appreciate the post<br />Road mangle rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05286716567921801644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-59882128817577404132018-11-19T00:34:27.749-05:002018-11-19T00:34:27.749-05:00http://www.cielodrive.com/stephanie-schram-stateme...http://www.cielodrive.com/stephanie-schram-statement-12-04-69.php<br /><br />It's available in a few places but my bet is they're ripping it from Cielo's site <br /><br />There's a drill down menu with a plethora of files to check out Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17388908256992077315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-14876745562484261962018-11-18T23:19:23.342-05:002018-11-18T23:19:23.342-05:00Doug Smith said...
"Even when Stephanie S...Doug Smith said...<br /> "Even when Stephanie Schram was interviewed in Anaheim with her mother present in early December of 1969..."<br /><br />Do you have a link to that?starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-63563967095430992392018-11-18T21:30:15.146-05:002018-11-18T21:30:15.146-05:00No kidding!
Even when Stephanie Schram was inter...No kidding! <br /><br />Even when Stephanie Schram was interviewed in Anaheim with her mother present in early December of 1969...her mother seems pretty peeved that her daughter is under a strict parole regimen for a communal package of 8 joints and, trespassing...while Chuck just seems to be the luckiest guy around!<br /><br />"MOTHER: We called Inyo County two or three times to see if they were still in custody because they picked him up even when he was picked up with Stephanie.<br /><br />DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah.<br /><br />MOTHER: He was violating Federal parole they let him loose."Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17388908256992077315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-60987196084139406312018-11-18T12:39:21.480-05:002018-11-18T12:39:21.480-05:00Gotta agree with greenwhite about how great your p...Gotta agree with greenwhite about how great your posts are. The spook angle is so evident to me. How do they arrest Charlie, as a parolee, 5 times and let him go each time, until the murders? And that's just one red flag pointing to government involvementDan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-49632376202581119722018-11-18T12:25:51.692-05:002018-11-18T12:25:51.692-05:00Twas your link about the heinlein inspiration... S...Twas your link about the heinlein inspiration... Sorry to be unclearDan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-34705749811062498522018-11-18T11:02:03.803-05:002018-11-18T11:02:03.803-05:00"Interesting article on cielo"
Do you h..."Interesting article on cielo"<br /><br />Do you have a link?starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-13090857265843589132018-11-18T01:41:52.357-05:002018-11-18T01:41:52.357-05:00Interesting article on cielo. How could he ace a c...Interesting article on cielo. How could he ace a correspondence course of he s practically illiterate? And his black/white bus story in the Manson Files is well written. Dan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-28203054250383069192018-11-17T22:37:53.272-05:002018-11-17T22:37:53.272-05:00I just finished the Family by sanders and he says ...I just finished the Family by sanders and he says the book was in Manson's special bag they recovered when he was arrested for the last time in the desert. The only book in there along with a bunch of magazinesDan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-60137658720028297832018-11-14T04:27:57.468-05:002018-11-14T04:27:57.468-05:00David said :
Certainly, Watson's use of the ...David said : <br /><br /><b>Certainly, Watson's use of the title is at least interesting if not a form of communication like the Krenwinkel photo from back then. </b> <br /><br />He could have been referencing the Heinlein book, or, being the bible thumper he is, he could have nicked it from the Exodus 2:22 excerpt referenced in the post.Gorodishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554015159612108936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-85354296060021058642018-11-14T00:32:00.960-05:002018-11-14T00:32:00.960-05:00Grim said: "At the start"..... and ....&...Grim said: "At the start"..... and ...."Does one ?"<br /><br />Yes, one does. I agree with Star on this one, Grim. If he is writing as a 'historian' it should be there because it was an influence as Mary Brunner could attest if she chose to chime in and because of the obvious similarities- Man's Son is enough for me. <br /><br />As an attorney I can give you a pretty good explanation why he didn't: Heinlein wrote 'science fiction'. Those last two word are the key. Now, remember Marvin Part's comment about Van Houten- 'Crazy in a science fiction way'. As a prosecutor why hand the defense an insanity defense? It needn't be a 'cover up'. In fact that is an area of Bugliosi bashing I find silly- he made up HS. No, his job was to convict. Why on earth present Stranger in a Strange Land to the jury and since his book is about what the great Bugliosi accomplished at trial why mention it there and say 'I avoided that'? <br /><br />And we don't know if any of the Family members ascribed any significance to the book. Certainly, Watson's use of the title is at least interesting if not a form of communication like the Krenwinkel photo from back then. <br /><br />Those who would have been there at the beginning to answer the question are either dead, dark or have no motivation to go there at a parole hearing. The answer to this likely lies with Mary Brunner. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551377673977145628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-1894455150039586922018-11-13T23:17:46.734-05:002018-11-13T23:17:46.734-05:00"..none of the members of the Family have eve..."..none of the members of the Family have ever ascribed any particular thoughts to Heinlein's book, so why in the world would Bugliosi? For all we know, he may never have even heard of the book, let alone its contents"<br /><br />Maybe not in the trial, but certainly he should have put it in his book, as big an influence as Heinlein's novel was.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-76612195126939617092018-11-13T22:37:09.150-05:002018-11-13T22:37:09.150-05:00starviego said...
The big question, though, is wh...starviego said...<br /><br /><b>The big question, though, is why didn't Bugliosi even mention the obvious influence of this book in his own tome "Helter Skelter?"</b><br /><br />At the start of his own tome in a "publisher's note ", Bugliosi talks about the influence of the Beatles lyrics on Charles and says that they were an influence on him is indisputable but so too is the fact that this was no responsibility of the Beatles. The whole thrust of Bugliosi's arguments regarding the Beatles and the Bible is that Charlie's interpretations were weird, way off beam, irrational etc.<br />For me, a bigger question is why Bugliosi and Gentry didn't even mention Charlie's attempt to move into the house next door to the LaBiancas. Even if it had no bearing on anything at all, it's as interesting from a background info point of view as Charlie turning up at the guest house at Cielo.<br /><br /> <b>One gets the feeling Bugs wanted to steer people away from this link, just like he steered his readers away from any links to the Black Muslims or The Fountain of the World(FOTW)</b><br /><br />Does one ?<br />At the end of the book, Bugliosi refers to Charlie as an eclectic and adds, rather slyly, a very telling definition ~ a <i>borrower</i> of ideas. He goes on to list a few influences ~ the Process, scientology and Hitler, in addition to some of the others in the book.<br />You yourself point out that as far as you are aware, none of the members of the Family have ever ascribed any particular thoughts to Heinlein's book, so why in the world would Bugliosi ? For all we know, he may never have even heard of the book, let alone its contents. I wouldn't mind betting that many who come to read this post have either not heard of the book or are aware of the parallels to the Family, let alone that Pooh Bear's actual name comes from the book. Is the influence <i>that</i> obvious ? It's not like we have been overbrimming with talk about it over the years.<br />But the reality is that neither the Black Muslims, the FOTW or Heinlein's novel play an important role in the specific story that Bugliosi as the prosecutor, was trying to tell. None of them made the murders happen. I don't doubt that what Manson saw and heard in prison with the Black Muslims, or what he knew of or witnessed in the FOTW or what he heard in the music of the Beatles {like millions of others in the USA, USSR & UK} or what he may have picked up from "Stranger in a strange land" or varying religious ideas influenced him, along with acid, a number of other countercultural elements, his musical ability, his con status and the Family's response to him.<br />To a large extent, being influenced by a diverse set of elements and somehow bringing it all together under one banner that was uniquely your own, <i>was</i> the latter half of the 60s. It shows up in the Beatles probably better than most examples {for obvious reasons}, but it was pretty common.<br /><br /><b>if the public had found out the "Helter Skelter" philosophy wasn't Charlie's idea, and if the very concept of the "Family" wasn't Charlie's idea, they might wonder to what extant TLB wasn't Charlie's idea</b><br /><br />Well, there wasn't anything groundbreaking about Black people turning the tide that had flowed against them for centuries or in White people helping them {although that was a little newer}. The concept of the Family wasn't Charlie's idea and I don't recall anyone claiming that. Roger Smith made the point that there were lots of Charlie's running around and Squeaky's book shows to some extent how the Family came together by osmosis rather than grand design, at least initially.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-7073179224491061412018-11-11T13:20:23.923-05:002018-11-11T13:20:23.923-05:00Thank you for the compliment, GreenWhite. My only...Thank you for the compliment, GreenWhite. My only concern is running out of subject material, as there is only so much data to mine.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-60830129256095999732018-11-11T10:01:44.356-05:002018-11-11T10:01:44.356-05:00I always enjoy your posts, Starviego. You bring up...I always enjoy your posts, Starviego. You bring up things that cause some of our curmudgeonly brethren to hop online and type their miserable anger in your direction with a fervor that makes me wonder why they get so peeved. I was super into Dave McGowan around the turn of the century but not so much as I've aged and become more cynical. Especially in this aloof scene. Regardless, McGowan has an easy writing style and his site was one of the most fun in its genre for the time. I wonder though if his conclusions based somewhat on everyone ever being in the military (or their dad) was simply a sign of the times and reflective of the upper middle class to upper class privileged demographic he was discussing. I'm 48. My dad, uncle, grandfather, his brothers etc etc all served in the military and I think that's a common story in the US. Guys enlisted, joined the Guard, or even took commissions before they were drafted in an attempt to avoid combat positions or whatever other personal reasons were in play. Plus, McGowan imo used sources that never listed their own sources. I'm sure I'll end up reading the LC book again at some point, it's entertaining, but McGowan almost seems like an earlier Sanders retelling Schreck with his rehash of Sanders. You're one of my favorite posters online in this area of study. Please keep going. G. Greene-Whytehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16687404262559321867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-52090237880500599552018-11-11T09:17:01.006-05:002018-11-11T09:17:01.006-05:00Gorodish,
Thank you very much. That's another...Gorodish,<br />Thank you very much. That's another mystery of life I won't have to worry about. I recognized B.B. Always enjoyed looking at her.Orwhuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00872103754747037178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-52528152727663601612018-11-11T06:41:49.720-05:002018-11-11T06:41:49.720-05:00Orwhut said :
Anybody know the identity of the b...Orwhut said : <br /><br /><b>Anybody know the identity of the blond on the left in the photo with Hefner?</b><br /><br />The blonde next to Hefner is Joy Tarbell, one of his original elite "Jet Bunnies" who doubled as club bunnies and stewardesses on his black private jet "Big Bunny", jokingly nicknamed "Hare Force One". The girl on his arm is Barbie Benton, his longtime squeeze back in the late 60's/early 70's.Gorodishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554015159612108936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-8285457369736169572018-11-11T06:28:32.396-05:002018-11-11T06:28:32.396-05:00starviego :
Excellent post on the parallels betw...starviego : <br /><br />Excellent post on the parallels between this book and the Manson Family. I would bet money that Manson read this book. It went to print in 1961; he could have read it in prison or in San Francisco in 1967. Like a poster above mentioned, some of the "big" words may have been an issue, but if you've ever read the book (as I have 3 times, the first time as a 15 yr old in 1971), it is not a difficult read requiring a nearby thesaurus. And his first "family" member was a librarian who would have gladly aided him in his reading. <br />I dug out my copy of SIASL yesterday and skimmed thru it....I was amazed at how the characters mirrored family members and associates:<br /><br />MV Smith - Manson (charismatic protagonist/antagonist)<br />Jubal Harshaw - Roger Smith (mentor, see original post)<br />Duke (the handyman from Kansas who can fix anything, is originally troubled by MVS' behavior, but slowly grows to become his right-hand man, eventually going "deep into the stew") - Tex (the handyman from Texas, etc.etc.)<br />Gillian the nurse - Mary the librarian<br />MVS 3 "secretaries" Anne (blonde) - Sandy, Miriam (redhead)- Squeaky, Dorcas (brunette) - Katie<br />Dawn Ardent (erotic dancer originally involved with another cult) - Sadie<br /><br />This book definitely served as a blueprint.....Gorodishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554015159612108936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-55454859103149051722018-11-11T04:23:37.038-05:002018-11-11T04:23:37.038-05:00If I am not mistaken and i might be. I remember re...If I am not mistaken and i might be. I remember reading somewhere possibly Helter skelter or anothwr book (ive read so many on this subject) that after Charlie was arrested at Barker and being transported to the clink in Independence. He asked the cops to stop at the mouth of Golar Wash to retrieve a knapsack. The cops were the ones to retrieve said knapsack, which happened to contain a copy of Stranger in a Strange Land. I may be wrong about this and if I am I apologize.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11527082663292868468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-35780618484141769922018-11-11T01:35:53.357-05:002018-11-11T01:35:53.357-05:00Great post, Star. Well done, sir.Great post, Star. Well done, sir.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551377673977145628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-76506624177194461452018-11-10T22:11:35.113-05:002018-11-10T22:11:35.113-05:00The girls have said they read the Bible to Manson ...The girls have said they read the Bible to Manson while he laid in a bathtub, maybe they read him these Heinlein novel's.beaudershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14223387983663922713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-73472616428662741242018-11-10T21:30:58.898-05:002018-11-10T21:30:58.898-05:00Anybody know the identity of the blond on the left...Anybody know the identity of the blond on the left in the photo with Hefner?Orwhuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00872103754747037178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-74222199318571587602018-11-10T20:34:57.001-05:002018-11-10T20:34:57.001-05:00kik Manson was in prison from 1960 until March 196...kik Manson was in prison from 1960 until March 1967 so he could have read the book. I'm on the fence with the illiteracy. I think he could read though maybe had trouble with the "big" words. He may not have comprehended everything but got the gist of a story. He was a terrible speller but did manage to write volumes of letters. You can't write letters unless you can read.DebShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17093893870315262396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-43243617010026784832018-11-10T18:08:20.058-05:002018-11-10T18:08:20.058-05:00Thanks for the post.
I remember reading "Far...Thanks for the post.<br /><br />I remember reading "Farnham's Freehold" sometime in the late '60s / early '70s. I didn't retain much of it, and had to go look up the plot on wiki. It IS an "ooo-wee-ooo" moment considering the similarity to Charlie's "war" - the pit - racial-power-reversal, etc.<br /><br />Just my opinion, but I can't imagine Charlie making it through a book, both for the "borderline - illiterate" reason, but also too much more distracting / pleasurable and easily-manipulated stimuli (on the outside & at the Ranch) <br /><br />But locked up in prison? Much more time and much more "focus" for reading - what ELSE is there to do (besides eat, "screw", fight)? I can see Charlie reading a book, especially science fiction when he was locked up. Wouldn't it be a hoot if the whole "helter/blackie" thing came from Farnham's Freehold? But since it didn't come out until '64, I wonder if he could have got his hands on a copy.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks for the piece, Starvy :)kraut_iznota_knotsyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09272808584318839527noreply@blogger.com