tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post5102437510691019617..comments2024-03-28T20:12:04.298-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: It Was Not the WrenchMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger113125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-26840515863368640042018-08-29T21:42:48.613-04:002018-08-29T21:42:48.613-04:00Dan S said...
It used to be about the music, m... Dan S said...<br /><br /> <b>It used to be about the music, man!</b><br /><br />Not according to Squeaky in her book !grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-54530847208497615832018-08-29T00:02:31.251-04:002018-08-29T00:02:31.251-04:00Babs said she barely talked to shorty ever and wou...Babs said she barely talked to shorty ever and wouldn't recognize his voice. Totally contradicts her own testimony. The Apr where the deed was done is supposedly on your other side of a mountain with. zero possibility for sound to travel to Babs's shacks. Maybe they tortured him for a while. I thought it was a blitz attack with Clem attacking him with a wrench, which he claims is his first overt act of violence and that he was quite nervous leading up to the moment. Then what? Stabby? What was Charlie doing while the violence was being perpetrated? Gleeful vengeance for the snitch's stitches? Sad to butcher someone.<br /> It used to be about the music, man.!Dan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-57920895575210644062018-08-28T23:02:25.490-04:002018-08-28T23:02:25.490-04:00From looking at the area where he was supposedly k...From looking at the area where he was supposedly killed im not seeing where there would be a trailer or any structure within ear shot of itRudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-34823982151902308542018-08-27T03:00:29.305-04:002018-08-27T03:00:29.305-04:00Orwhut wrote:
I can't remember when Barbara H...Orwhut wrote:<br /><br /><b>I can't remember when Barbara Hoyt said she heard Shorty screaming. Was it the night Ruby Pearl saw the men approach him?</b><br /><br />Babs Hoyt's version went something like this : "I was in a trailer on high ground, and below that was a creek bed. Charlie, Tex, Bruce Davis, and Steve Grogan chased Shorty down there. <i><b>It was around ten at night</b></i> {bold italics are mine}. I heard a scream and got up. The moon was bright, and I could see the imprint of leaves on the window screen. I thought, “Maybe I imagined that.” I lay back down, and the screams started again, and they kept happening and happening and happening. It was Shorty. I recognized his voice. I was scared. I crouched in a ball on the floor. The next day I heard Charlie talking about it. He said, “Shorty died with a little help from us. He was hard to kill, but we brought him to Now.”<br /><br />Ruby Pearl testified that the men were stalking him close to midnight, on a moonlit night in late August. She mentioned the same quartet Babs mentioned, plus possibly "the tall guy in the hat", Bill Vance. <br /><br />Frank Retz testified that he talked to Shorty on the phone in the early morning, on either Tuesday or Wednesday in the last week of August 1969, and Shorty was supposed to come by his house. He never showed. Retz never heard from him again.<br /><br />Both Grogan and Davis said they killed him in the morning.<br /><br />Personally I believe Ruby and Retz, and to a lesser extent Clem. Bruce has always been dodgy, and a little more info comes out of him with each parole hearing. If he makes it to age 80 we may eventually get the whole truth from him.<br /><br />IMO, Babs' testimony re Shorty has credibility issues....always has. I've always wondered if she was coached using what Ruby told Bug and co. She was a scared kid back then.<br /><br />It sure would be interesting to know what transpired between the time Ruby saw "those boys fanning out after Shorty near the boardwalk" and the next morning.Gorodishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554015159612108936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-27037469252388841422018-08-26T21:16:11.692-04:002018-08-26T21:16:11.692-04:00I can't remember when Barbara Hoyt said she he...I can't remember when Barbara Hoyt said she heard Shorty screaming. Was it the night Ruby Pearl saw the men approach him?Orwhuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00872103754747037178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-17762565027015079182018-08-21T18:40:48.032-04:002018-08-21T18:40:48.032-04:00Yeah if i was a betting man id bet he was killed t...Yeah if i was a betting man id bet he was killed that night, after all the lies and changing stories in this whole saga i think its very likely Bruce and Clem lied and just to look like theyre not changing stories kept repeating it to the parole boards RudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-22898359878592796092018-08-21T17:41:11.317-04:002018-08-21T17:41:11.317-04:00RWH -
Yes, she testified late one night around 11...RWH -<br /><br />Yes, she testified late one night around 11:30 in late August that as she was leaving the ranch, Shorty came to her car all drunk and nervous, asking her for a place to stay that night. Because she had no room and he'd been drinking, she turned him down and told him to go to Fountain Of The World. When he didn't want to go there, he said he'd sleep in his car even though Spahn was giving him the creeps. As she drove off she saw a car pulling in fast and Tex, Charlie, Clem, and Bruce (and possibly Vance?) jumping out and fanning out to the boardwalk area where Shorty was heading. You'd think they would have killed him then in the dark, but according to Bruce and Clem he was killed in the morning. Who knows with these people. I'm sure Ruby was telling the truth, and I bet after she found out about Shorty's horrible death she regretted not giving him a place to stay that night.Gorodishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554015159612108936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-88727940194961884172018-08-21T14:12:51.634-04:002018-08-21T14:12:51.634-04:00Wasnt there some kind of story about Ruby Pearl ge...Wasnt there some kind of story about Ruby Pearl getting ready to leave the ranch one night and seeing Charlie, Bruce, Tex and Clem all walking quickly or running up on Shorty and surrounding him around the time he was killed? If i recall she said it was dark or at least close to dark outRudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-74502108261748900972018-08-20T22:55:07.101-04:002018-08-20T22:55:07.101-04:00Makes me wonder if this really happened in the day...Makes me wonder if this really happened in the day. Susan claimed Charlie woke her up it was still dark out and drove her and I think Gypsy to the scene. Shorty's car was half in the road and half out.Which honestly makes more sense than these guys beating and stabbing a man to death with the morning traffic. I'm not sure why they'd lie about the time of the crime but Susan said this very early on. Granted she has little credibility but this murder happening before sunrise makes much more sense. I think Gypsy may have confirmed this but I'm not 100% on that. I do know I got this info from Cielos siteBrian Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16414617578066378757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-6963153716850549792018-08-20T22:31:49.398-04:002018-08-20T22:31:49.398-04:00Pretty sure the car broke down and he just decided...Pretty sure the car broke down and he just decided to get in the back and go to sleep before dealing with it. I know he said in some of his parole hearings the car was a piece of shit that didn't have the correct radiator and going up an incredibly long steep hill the car over heated. I'm not sure what the books say on this subjectBrian Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16414617578066378757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-9855739339147253912018-08-20T16:03:15.726-04:002018-08-20T16:03:15.726-04:00The risks they all took throughout this whole saga...The risks they all took throughout this whole saga are unbelievable when you think about it, Cielo for instance has to be one of the most brazen crimes ive heard of, driving around Beverly Hills in that 59 Ford at midnight, cutting phone lines, etc, didnt cops or the Bel Air patrol weve heard so much about in this case ever do rounds or drive bys in any of these neighborhoods back then? RudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-40744461941982035922018-08-20T15:45:31.405-04:002018-08-20T15:45:31.405-04:00RWH-
It sounds like they started on him in the ca...RWH-<br /><br />It sounds like they started on him in the car while in the turnout, then dragged him down the ravine to finish him off. If they really killed him in the daytime, then they were really brazen to do it there. Anything could have gone wrong : a cop car driving by and seeing two empty cars there, one with the doors probably open; someone wandering along the railroad racks at the bottom of the hill...these people were obviously out of their minds at that point. I first drove up that road in 1977 on a motorcycle and had a friend show me where Spahn Ranch used to be. I had no idea back then where Shorty was murdered. The road was more remote then; it wasn't till the mid to late 80s that they repaved the roads and built all those condos between Garden of the Gods and the 118 freeway.Gorodishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554015159612108936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-64233580775060952792018-08-20T13:49:11.024-04:002018-08-20T13:49:11.024-04:00I saw a video of the place where it happened, it l...I saw a video of the place where it happened, it looks like Redmesa Rd dead ends there at Santa Susana Pass and theres a guardrail type fence there at the junction, did they kill him on the road and then throw him down the little ravine or did they kill him down in the ravine?RudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-3913790972149022242018-08-20T13:45:24.861-04:002018-08-20T13:45:24.861-04:00Lol Vance would have stomped a mudhole in Tex or a...Lol Vance would have stomped a mudhole in Tex or any other male around the ranch, he was a boxer and served a decade in Brushy Mountain prison in Tennessee, at least thats what Manson claimed RudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-71055128517975216142018-08-20T03:52:40.945-04:002018-08-20T03:52:40.945-04:00grimtraveller wrote:
Both Bruce and Clem's v...grimtraveller wrote: <br /><br /><b>Both Bruce and Clem's versions differ from each other. Quite significantly, actually. Clem stated that only he and Tex were in the car with Shorty. Bruce says he was in the car with the 3 of them. </b> <br /><br />I tend to go with Clem's version more than anyone else's. I believe it was Tex and Clem in the car with Shorty, with Charlie and Bruce in the second car. I think Charlie waited till his best man, "The Butcher Of Copeville", got back from Death Valley to carry this one out. Not sure about Vance or Bailey. In the audio file of Ella Jo Bailey on cielodrive.com (which is an aural nightmare),from what I can make out Ella says that her and Bill were busted in Cleveland for using a stolen credit card in "late August". And yet Vance was supposedly there to help with the Death Valley Relocation Project. Wouldn't Charlie, who was a total paranoid loon at this point, want to sic Tex on Vance after helping Ella get away ? Or maybe he needed Vance badly enough to forget it ? <br /><br />As far as the pipe wrench, if this wrench was really the one Clem used,and was tossed carelessly away down the hill, would they even care if anyone found it ? The wrench was used to smack Shorty in the back of the head and knock him off his guard so the Butcher of Copeville could perform his specialty. It wasn't the actual murder weapon. I'd bet Tex alone put 40-50 stab wounds into Shorty, in addition to whatever mayhem the others laid into the poor bastard. Unlike the other murders, this one was out in the wilderness, and they knew they would be burying the body soon. Why would they even worry about the pipe wrench ? Just chuck it down the hill. And as we saw with Beausoleil, these drugged out souls weren't the sharpest rakes in the tool shed about leaving any clues<br /><br />On a side note, since Spahn Ranch is only a 15-20 minute drive from my house, and with this post in mind, I drove up there after running errands in Simi Valley on Saturday, and pulled off at that turnoff near Redmesa Rd on Santa Susana where Shorty was murdered. Those guys had some brass cojones to kill Shorty right there. I first drove that road in 1977, and although it seemed it was a bit more remote then, it was still a ballsy place for a daytime murder.Gorodishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554015159612108936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-50718060915523403702018-08-19T16:54:25.733-04:002018-08-19T16:54:25.733-04:00From looking at videos of that site its hard to im...From looking at videos of that site its hard to imagine people just showing up and sliding down that little ravine to drop anything down thereRudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-58684064770634111602018-08-19T15:31:46.808-04:002018-08-19T15:31:46.808-04:00Blogger John Seger said...
I wouldn't be surpr...Blogger John Seger said...<br />I wouldn't be surprised if people have gone out there over the years to leave items in various spots.<br /><br />I hadn't thought about someone leaving the handle of a broken pipe wrench out there and waiting for it to turn up in the headlines. Kind of how they hoaxed the Cardiff Giant.Orwhuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00872103754747037178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-80298573212753613422018-08-19T13:33:24.753-04:002018-08-19T13:33:24.753-04:00I wouldn't be surprised if people have gone ou...I wouldn't be surprised if people have gone out there over the years to leave items in various spots. John Segerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13870704063219582222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-48643997762146893452018-08-18T17:57:59.894-04:002018-08-18T17:57:59.894-04:00That little snippet from Manson sounds like one of...That little snippet from Manson sounds like one of his post incarceration babbling interviews where he tries to sound toughRudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-13020633201683296482018-08-18T17:39:13.110-04:002018-08-18T17:39:13.110-04:00RudyWebersHose said...
When did Shorty make a... RudyWebersHose said...<br /><br /> <b>When did Shorty make a move on Charlie? I thought Charlie was in the car the whole time by Bruce and Clems accounts</b><br /><br />Both Bruce and Clem's versions differ from each other. Quite significantly, actually. Clem stated that only he and Tex were in the car with Shorty. Bruce says he was in the car with the 3 of them. <br />Charlie presents the whole thing as a fight that got out of hand in which he says <i>"so, it went on to where there was kind of like a fight. And Bruce was kind of mealy-mouthed about it. I told him 'Man, ain't you ever been in a fight in your life ?' I said 'When you have to do something, you pick it up and do it.' I moved on Shea. I discombobulated him. In other words like, he had everybody buffaloed.He was big and he had everybody frozen in fear. They were all frozen in fear. Like, the same thing happened with Lotsapoppa....."</i><br />The details themselves aren't that important but Charlie never presents a scenario that ended in death that he was involved in as being one that was supposed to end that way.<br /><br />RudyWebersHose said...<br /><br /> <b> Police are trained and ENCOURAGED to lie to obtain information and sometimes confessions, there are no laws or statutes in place that say police cant lie, they do it all the time</b><br /><br />It's called 'playing on a suspect's consciousness of guilt by pretending to have conclusive evidence of guilt that police do not in fact have, to prompt incriminating responses from the suspect.' It's actually fair game for the Police to do this ~ <i>as long as the suspect does not confess to a crime they didn't commit.</i> Also, such duplicitousness has to be sort of plausible in the light of what is suspected {or, for that matter, known} about the crime. So with Bobby, they could say there was blood on the knife because in conjunction with all his lies, what they knew at the time and the circumstances of him being picked up and where he was headed, they probably felt a little pressure would cause him to gush. Better than beating him up and leaving bruises.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-46158316261453681382018-08-18T17:04:26.427-04:002018-08-18T17:04:26.427-04:00Dan S said...
That's a short movie! It was a p...Dan S said...<br />That's a short movie! It was a proof of concept short film. Very good anyway. Thanks, Orwhut<br /><br />Dan,<br />You're welcome. I'm happy that someone liked it.Orwhuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00872103754747037178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-86804250516625473422018-08-18T15:03:22.721-04:002018-08-18T15:03:22.721-04:00Here too
https://vimeo.com/172412441Here too<br /><br />https://vimeo.com/172412441Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13720689208658987710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-89128616224981070002018-08-18T14:47:33.684-04:002018-08-18T14:47:33.684-04:00When did Shorty make a move on Charlie? I thought ...When did Shorty make a move on Charlie? I thought Charlie was in the car the whole time by Bruce and Clems accountsRudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-59864425107077146232018-08-18T14:45:36.998-04:002018-08-18T14:45:36.998-04:00Also add to that Charlie gets to look like the big...Also add to that Charlie gets to look like the big bad brave hero to all the kids at the ranch RudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-1374815064864052802018-08-18T14:43:31.199-04:002018-08-18T14:43:31.199-04:00Charlie never did anything that wasnt self serving...Charlie never did anything that wasnt self serving so i believe there were selfish reasons for even showing up there in the first place, i dont think he cared what if anything happened to Rosina, why would he? He didnt even know her, i believe the reasons are 1) money, either cash or drugs he thought might still be on hand and 2) self preservation, Crowe knew where the ranch was, threatened to come there and Charlie couldnt have his little kingdom upset, as far as Tex i think if hed been killed by Crowe over the whole mess Charlie would have had a good riddance attitude about itRudyWebersHosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06281984776301324237noreply@blogger.com