tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post5131388608306633538..comments2024-03-27T21:24:06.590-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: All about the Drugs at CieloMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger97125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-26237181609104137772023-01-01T17:24:27.769-05:002023-01-01T17:24:27.769-05:00New York Times August 9, 1969
"The Los Angele...New York Times August 9, 1969<br />"The Los Angeles coroner, Thomas Noguchi, told a news conference that there was <b>no evidence</b> that a party had taken place or <b>that narcotics had been used</b>."starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-84005938779249857222021-09-25T19:37:07.090-04:002021-09-25T19:37:07.090-04:00Paul,
I would have to agree.Paul,<br /><br />I would have to agree.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-87485024434692754412021-03-30T01:13:18.041-04:002021-03-30T01:13:18.041-04:00Manson admitted to being put into some kind of &qu...Manson admitted to being put into some kind of "Federal Witness Protection Program" as soon as he got out of Terminal Island in March 1967. But he said he wasn't any kind of witness in any case. And he said he didn't snitch on anyone, so he wasn't an informant. The only other reason for being put in the DOJ's Federal Protection Program (administered by Gerald Shur) was to be a COINTELPRO or CHAOS agent provocateur... of which there were several in the late 60s and early 70s. Donald DeFreeze was another example.<br />The Feds wanted Manson out on the street for a specific reason.PaulHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02965666446497527968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-82628473893842476222020-12-08T14:48:05.628-05:002020-12-08T14:48:05.628-05:00A possible scenario:
The covert operators hear ru...<br />A possible scenario:<br /><br />The covert operators hear rumors about all the drug use up at Cielo, so they are planning to use that to feed the public demand for answers and to send the investigators on their wild goose chase around the world. They send in Whitson to seed the crime scene with pills, marijuana, and Cocaine. But then they get early word (earlier than date written on the tox reports) that there's no drugs in any of the victims(except maybe for the MDA), including the drugs(weed and coke) found at scene. They know this is going to raise questions, so they first try saying there were no drugs found in the house, but that eliminates their drug burn red herring motive. So they then demand a retesting off all the victim's bodily fluids, but quietly order than no tests for THC or Cocaine be done. And it works. They still get to paint the victims with a drug jacket. And no one notices.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-60696107571660980732020-11-26T14:53:53.189-05:002020-11-26T14:53:53.189-05:00The Phenacetin Mystery
The Cielo Drive victims we...The Phenacetin Mystery<br /><br />The Cielo Drive victims were all tested for a variety of drugs of abuse. For Example Voytek:<br /><br />Frykowski<br />Blood: Ethanol, Barbiturates, Noludar, Phenacetin, Doriden, Meprobamate, Quaalude and Soma absent.<br />Urine: Amphetamine and Methamphetamine absent ...<br />Urine: Absence of Codeine, Morphine and Amphetamine<br /><br />Included in this list is Phenacetin, an analgesic sinced pulled from the market. It is not, however, a drug of abuse--you can't get high off of it. So why would they test for it? Interestingly, Phenacetin was/is often used as a 'cut' for cocaine.<br /><br />I suspect the toxicologists were for some reason, told not to test for cocaine; and testing for Phenacetin was their roundabout way of going around that. So in these test results they are telling us that NO cocaine was found in the bodily fluids in any of the victims.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-20875839341639689072020-03-11T02:15:48.070-04:002020-03-11T02:15:48.070-04:00grimtraveller said...
"Mrs Chapman said t... grimtraveller said...<br /> "Mrs Chapman said that the flag had been there for ages.<br /> Are you honestly going to disregard her housekeeper's instinct and memory of the house she kept..."<br /><br />No, I try to look at all the evidence. So far, it looks like the flag was already there, but I'll continue to keep an open mind.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-52822404624727317052020-03-11T02:10:40.706-04:002020-03-11T02:10:40.706-04:00Some more info on the drugs found at Cielo:
www.c...Some more info on the drugs found at Cielo:<br /><br />www.cielodrive.com/manson-case-files/BOX-12b.pdf?fbclid=IwAR00pZ91U3zR6j3NvHt_bubn_bcmEF6KAk31cdVzfOmtU7MEjyuyUqcQs6s<br />Manson Case Files Box 12b pg161of358 LA Times article, unk date<br />"A reporter for The Times, however, had been allowed to take a close look at the murder scene earlier. ... A porcelain mug in the bar was inscribed with the word "opium." ... In the master bedroom, apparently occupied by Miss Tate.. on top of a Spanish-style dresser cabinet were a water pipe and books on childbirth... "<br /><br />www.cielodrive.com/manson-case-files/BOX-12b.pdf?fbclid=IwAR00pZ91U3zR6j3NvHt_bubn_bcmEF6KAk31cdVzfOmtU7MEjyuyUqcQs6s<br />Manson Case Files Box 12b pg167of358 LA Times article, Aug 17, 1969<br />"Only a small quantity of drugs was found in Sebring's car. Police said none was found in the house."<br /><br />www.cielodrive.com/manson-case-files/BOX-12b.pdf?fbclid=IwAR00pZ91U3zR6j3NvHt_bubn_bcmEF6KAk31cdVzfOmtU7MEjyuyUqcQs6s<br />Manson Case Files Box 12b pg172of358 LA Times Article Aug 13, 1969<br />Header: "Drugs Found Near Tate Murder Site Pills, Marijuana Located in Slain Hair Stylist's Car Outside Estate"<br />Body: "The drugs were found in the 1966 black Porsche owned by wealthy Hollywood hair stylist Jay Sebring. ... Among the drugs were a small quantity of marijuana, pills resembling methedrine (or "speed") and possibly LSD, Earlier Lt. Robert Helder, head of the Tate case team, had been asked if narcotics had been found at the scene. "Not in the house," he said."<br /><br />www.cielodrive.com/manson-case-files/BOX-12c.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2g_rduAK5VC7woYupWxgyGmHsJlWGIxMUZ1ctxmPQMRPKXaQY84wUCgWc<br />Manson Case Files Box 12c pg668of746<br />transcript of televised interview of Coroner Thomas Noguchi:<br />"Noguchi said drugs had been found in the bodies of the victims... but he declined to answer when Channel 7's Bob Banfield asked if ALL the bodies contained drugs... " (emphasis in the original)<br /><br />www.cielodrive.com/manson-case-files/BOX-12c.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2g_rduAK5VC7woYupWxgyGmHsJlWGIxMUZ1ctxmPQMRPKXaQY84wUCgWc<br />Manson Case Files Box 12c pg670of746<br />transcript of news conference of LAPD Cheif Ed Davis and Chief of Detectives Robert Houghton, dated Sept 2, 1969<br />"On the question of narcotics the two officials were deliberately vague."<br /><br /><br /><br />Why were the cops being so wishy-washy on drugs at the house? I now have zero confidence on anything they said about what drugs were found there.<br /><br />starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-25959363194019050102020-03-04T04:50:53.480-05:002020-03-04T04:50:53.480-05:00starviego said...
Manson: the life and times of ... starviego said...<br /><br /><br /><b>Manson: the life and times of Charles Manson, by Jeff Guinn c.2013<br /> [footnote on pg437<br /> ...Tex Watson wrote that the large American Flag was already on the sofa when the murders took place. ... Krenwinkle is certain that while Tate, Frykowski, Sebring, and Folger were slaughtered, the flag was not on the couch, and that she was startled to read news stories alluding to it being there</b><br /><br />Mrs Chapman said that the flag had been there for ages.<br />Are you honestly going to disregard her housekeeper's instinct and memory of the house she kept for that of an incoherent trainwreck whose attention to detail above and beyond every one of the murderers is and for half a century has been, renowned as less than dull ?<br />Well, good luck with that. Your desperation to not see beyond your conspiracy theories continues to lead you into volcanoes that erupt lava all over your shoes.<br />I'd sooner rely on Susan Atkins than Pat when it comes to details, that's how little credence one can place on Pat's 1969 memory after the event. grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-2943823371859461912019-08-23T22:56:03.841-04:002019-08-23T22:56:03.841-04:00David said...
10. Then all the hippies voted f...<br /> David said...<br /> 10. Then all the hippies voted for Ronald Reagan. <br /><br />Excellent point. As a law-and-order conservative, Reagan certainly benefited from TLB. As for the rest, that's pretty close to what I believe, yes.<br /><br />----------------------<br /><br />Manson: the life and times of Charles Manson, by Jeff Guinn c.2013<br />[footnote on pg437<br />...Tex Watson wrote that the large American Flag was already on the sofa when the murders took place. ... Krenwinkle is certain that while Tate, Frykowski, Sebring, and Folger were slaughtered, <b>the flag was <i>not</i> on the couch</b>, and that she was startled to read news stories alluding to it being there. <br /><br />The pieces are starting tp fall into place! It's too bad PJ Tate died not knowing this was a plant.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-19816842362466644012019-08-20T00:28:03.773-04:002019-08-20T00:28:03.773-04:00"tried" not "tired""tried" not "tired"Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551377673977145628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-9380567096828425422019-08-20T00:26:01.791-04:002019-08-20T00:26:01.791-04:00So let em understand this. You actually believe:
...So let em understand this. You actually believe:<br /><br />1. The CIA/FBI plotted these murders and were watching Cielo Drive.<br />2. They chose a cretin like Manson on purpose in 1966 (since he got out on time served and good time in March 1967) to commit these murders and thus ruin the 60's by undermining the new left and the antiwar movement. <br />3. They snagged him because of something they noticed in prison and afterwards whisked him away to Esalen to program him as a sort of pseudo-Manchurian Candidate. <br />4. This was so effective he convinced about two dozen women to follow him blindly together with about a half dozen males. <br />5. They then orchestrated the murders after allowing Manson to pursue a musical career for about a year and a half.<br />6. They knew everything because they are spooks, including which house, which day and what time.<br />7. They pulled off the cops watching Manson and gave him a pass because he had this mission from 1966 or 67 when they Cthulhu'd his mind at Esalen.<br />8. He then completed the task and as Joan Didion has said 'ended the sixties'. <br />9. Then they tired him to get rid of him and he spent the next 50 years I prison never uttering a word about this because he was afraid the spooks would off him in prison.<br />10. Then all the hippies voted for Ronald Reagan. <br /><br />You actually make the Helter Skelter motive sound reasonable. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551377673977145628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-4441489403815111782019-08-19T22:11:05.018-04:002019-08-19T22:11:05.018-04:00Quote from post:
"-They did indeed do the tes...<br />Quote from post:<br />"-They did indeed do the tests, but toxicological results came back NEGATIVE for any Marijuana/THC or Cocaine use in all four of the people from the main house. <br />In other words no drugs were being consumed, and thus there was no reason to have all these drugs there at all. This raises the possibility that the drug evidence was PLANTED."<br /><br />This theory is no longer far-fetched:<br /><br />Chaos, by Tom O'Neill pg190<br />Neil Cummings, lawyer friend of Whitson: "He had a reason to believe something weird was about to happen at the [Tate] house. ... He told me he was there after the murders, but before the police got there. Whitson had the Tate house under surveillance, ... which is how he knew something was going to happen. On the night of the murders, he'd been there and left.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-23590067354507073002018-12-08T01:49:08.451-05:002018-12-08T01:49:08.451-05:00I agree and if Sharon or Jay didn’t dump it that n...I agree and if Sharon or Jay didn’t dump it that night Mrs Chapman would the next. I think a woman as pregnant as Tate would have been sickened by the smell and sight of a stubbed out cigarette but probably not a joint.beaudershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14223387983663922713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-57379921773703794152018-12-03T22:16:33.768-05:002018-12-03T22:16:33.768-05:00Star,
I personally think the probable scenario f...Star, <br /><br />I personally think the probable scenario for the ashtray was Sebring smoked a joint while talking to Sharon that night.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551377673977145628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-45964163823025205672018-12-03T22:04:00.545-05:002018-12-03T22:04:00.545-05:00I don't see Sharon sleeping with a dirty ashtr...I don't see Sharon sleeping with a dirty ashtray by her head. Maybe the evidence says what it seems to say.<br /><br />Anyway, as you may have guessed by my comments, I have a lot of doubts about this 'drug' evidence. I don't really believe Sharon was smoking dope.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-49380338107959531252018-12-03T20:47:22.689-05:002018-12-03T20:47:22.689-05:00starviego said...
Presumably Mrs. Chapman would ...starviego said...<br /><br /> <b>Presumably Mrs. Chapman would have cleaned the ashtray on Friday</b><br /><br />Tuesday was her day to do the master bedroom.<br /><br /><b>I doubt it was company that left it</b><br /><br />Sharon had company that day. Mrs Chapman said she served a late lunch and her guests used the pool and ∴ the room. Maybe one of them had a joint that they'd brought along. Maybe it was Wojiciech.<br /><br /><b>Why does Sharon have an ashtray in her room anyway? For her Tareytons? (defunct American cigarette brand) </b><br /><br />Maybe she had an ashtray for the people that did smoke Tareytons !<br /><br /><b>No, it was because she was a doper!</b><br /><br />That's your assumption. It could be bang on the money or it could be a bankrupter.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-12728937067701639452018-12-02T23:17:45.851-05:002018-12-02T23:17:45.851-05:00grimtraveller said...
(re residue in the ashtray o...grimtraveller said...<br />(re residue in the ashtray on the stand next to Sharon Tate's bed)<br /> "I don't know. But it could have belonged to someone else couldn't it ? Because it was found in Sharon's room, does it mean without any question that it was hers ? On the night of the murder, Jay and her were talking in her room which kind of suggests that people went in there. Mrs Chapman said that it was the room used as a kind of changing room when people used the pool."<br /><br />Presumably Mrs. Chapman would have cleaned the ashtray on Friday, the day before; so I doubt it was company that left it. Why does Sharon have an ashtray in her room anyway? For her Tareytons? (defunct American cigarette brand) No, it was because she was a doper!starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-654598464951002272018-12-02T23:08:49.408-05:002018-12-02T23:08:49.408-05:00They spent a lot of time and money chasing those d...They spent a lot of time and money chasing those drug dealers around the globe, but they didn't bother to find out which victims was doing what drugs?<br /><br />"we don't know that because they didn't check"<br /><br />WHY? WHY? WHY? If they are going to check for Phenacetin, why not cocaine? Come on, Grim, you know that is hinky.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-68446521916239542612018-12-02T22:27:01.998-05:002018-12-02T22:27:01.998-05:00starviego said...
Well if you credit the dru... starviego said...<br /><br /><br /> <b>Well if you credit the drug evidence, does that mean that Sharon was smoking marijuana, or had smoked marijuana recently?<br /><br />"and from Bugliosi, pg26-27:marijuana residue in the ashtray on the stand next to Sharon Tate's bed"</b><br /><br />I don't know. But it could have belonged to someone else couldn't it ? Because it was found in Sharon's room, does it mean without any question that it was hers ? On the night of the murder, Jay and her were talking in her room which kind of suggests that people went in there. Mrs Chapman said that it was the room used as a kind of changing room when people used the pool.<br />Despite my closed minded reputation ☺ I do try to look for possible explanations of why things were as they were. It makes no difference to my existence or what went on to happen at Cielo if Sharon had had a small toke {or even a big one} on a spliff. Babies born healthily all over the world have had Mums that liked their ganja during pregnancy and as Robert pointed out, back in '69, the pressure not to smoke while expecting can't be compared with today. Even until fairly recently {the last 12 or so years} I knew pregnant women that smoked. <br />But I'm not going to assume Sharon Tate smoked because ganja dust was found in an ashtray in her room of what was a fairly open house.<br /><br /><b> why were Folger/Frykowski even at Cielo Dr to begin with</b><br /><br />Whatever the answer to that, Sharon apparently asked them to stay on until Roman got back from London.<br /><br /><b>I am just pointing out inconsistencies in the evidence: They found all those drugs at the scene but not in the victims</b><br /><br />Well, what your thread demonstrates is that we don't know that because they didn't check.<br /><br /><b>They said Folger and Frykowski were heavy into the drugs but apparently they weren't</b><br /><br />According to Sheilah Wells back in 1969, Sharon told her <i>in July</i> of that year that Abigail and Wojiciech were always stoned and that she didn't understand them.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-53594640629636704152018-12-02T21:48:21.340-05:002018-12-02T21:48:21.340-05:00Well if you credit the drug evidence, does that me...<br />Well if you credit the drug evidence, does that mean that Sharon was smoking marijuana, or had smoked marijuana recently?<br /><br />"and from Bugliosi, pg26-27:<br />--marijuana residue in the ashtray on the stand next to Sharon Tate's bed"starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-47652698178817636992018-12-02T19:52:42.995-05:002018-12-02T19:52:42.995-05:00grimtraveller said...
starviego said...
... grimtraveller said...<br /><br /> starviego said...<br /><br /> <b>Come to think of it, why were Folger/Frykowski even at Cielo Dr to begin with? Why did they have to housesit a rental where the landlord is living in the back less than a hundred feet away? It's not like the house was filled with a priceless art collection or valuable antiques. Why didn't they tell Roman that they had their own residence to live in</b><br /><br /> That's a question that contains its own reply ~ Roman asked them. And it worked out quite well for Witold K. Besides, how many landlords look after a house on behalf of the renters while they're away ? Rudi just didn't seem the type ! And he was away for a lot of the time too. Garretson was in that guest house from the time Sharon left for Rome.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-3854019572739975612018-12-02T19:51:54.081-05:002018-12-02T19:51:54.081-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-63951668975265380102018-12-02T19:49:25.746-05:002018-12-02T19:49:25.746-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-77052576101180832142018-12-02T19:42:39.494-05:002018-12-02T19:42:39.494-05:00David said...
Now, point out to me either a f...David said...<br /><br /> <b>Now, point out to me either a fourth knife being mentioned or anyone saying PK gave her knife to Watson</b><br /><br />Well, a 4th knife is never mentioned and no one that I'm aware of ever states that Pat gave her knife to Tex. That doesn't mean that neither are true. Atkins at one point thought that Tex could have had a knife independent of the others although in fairness, she couldn't confirm it. Which brings me to the point that in a joint enterprise, not everyone involved sees every part of what happened. Now, I'm not going to argue that Tex had a knife all along, only that by his own admission he had one as he approached Steven parent.<br />That no one recalls Tex ending up with Pat's knife is nothing unusual. Why would anyone particularly notice that ? You've got 4 people climbing over a fence in the dead of night, one of them already having fallen from the fence and hit the ground with a bump and just the general kerfuffle of that move twinned with the sudden appearance of headlights. I personally find it a whole lot stranger that none of the women could recall Wojiciech being shot twice. If Linda could, from outside the house, hear people screaming <i>in</i> the house, you'd think she would have heard 2 gunshots, even if she missed the one that felled Jay. And neither Pat nor Susan recalls it. Now, maybe they're all just a bunch of liars that had their own "Helter Skelter Charlie style mess with everyone's head" reasons for saying they didn't hear or see the Frykowski shots or Tex receive a knife from Pat but then again, <i>maybe they just did not recall these events.</i><br /><br /><b>You are only a cynic when it involves a challenge to the official narrative</b><br /><br />I guess some of it depends on exactly what is seen as the ON.<br />I pointed out 3 challenges to the ON myself earlier and the things you pointed out that you felt would make for a worse story {hanging Sharon Tate, Atkins inflicting mortal wounds on Frykowski, odd blood pools on the front porch, the towel around Jay Sebring's head and the rope over that}, I don't dispute, even though none of the killers speak of any of those things, deny them, even. For me, the ON goes way beyond simply what the killers have said or what Bugliosi said or even what dear Linda said. They help to fill in some of the gaps, but not totally or satisfactorily.<br />I'm cynical about many sides and aspects of this case.<br /><br /> starviego said...<br /><br /><b>my gut suspicion says most or all of the drugs were planted between the time of the murders and when they were 'found' by the detectives. They even planted the MDA in the urine of Folger/Frykowski</b><br /><br />Oh well, I <i>did</i> ask.<br />Just out of interest, if I dispute that, is that me being cynical about a challenge to the official narrative ? 😀<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Just joking ! grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-89393005173017740802018-12-02T09:10:30.530-05:002018-12-02T09:10:30.530-05:00Grim said: "I think he got it from Patricia K...Grim said: "I think he got it from Patricia Krenwinkel if he didn't have one stashed about his person. It makes sense because of three things which, when put together may = a logical equation."<br /><br />Yes, it is logical to assume the knife Watson had came from PK, if you assume steps one and three of your equation. And it is logical to assume he obtained the knife at some point around the time they climbed the fence if you assume step one of your equation. <br /><br />Now, point out to me either a fourth knife being mentioned or anyone saying PK gave her knife to Watson. <br /><br />If you remember that a smaller blade can make a bigger would but that a larger blade Cann't make a smaller wound it is actually fairly easy (if a somewhat unpleasant process) to see precisely who had which knife, when, from the autopsy reports.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551377673977145628noreply@blogger.com