tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post6590531319542063765..comments2024-03-27T21:24:06.590-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: Strange RV Tours: The Escape TruckMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-31555209063388295172020-10-04T12:39:58.340-04:002020-10-04T12:39:58.340-04:00The new summer caretaker is Jerry. He is there ful...The new summer caretaker is Jerry. He is there full time. I met him and spent a bit of time with them on my last trip out. One of the younger owners will handle caretaker job in the winter months.Ben Gureckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11363387491430035305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-80442549784939667662020-10-04T12:37:43.244-04:002020-10-04T12:37:43.244-04:00Charles referred to this truck as military surplus...Charles referred to this truck as military surplusBen Gureckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11363387491430035305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-83534144327600386732020-09-30T15:10:49.082-04:002020-09-30T15:10:49.082-04:00Matthew said...
I am pretty sure that if they... Matthew said...<br /><br /> <b>I am pretty sure that if they all kept their mouths shut, Dianne Lake would not have said anything about what Leslie told her. I don't believe that she said a word until the trial was already to begin or had already began</b><br /><br />Dianne Lake is interesting in this aspect because on December '69, she's lying to the Grand Jury on a number of matters pertaining to the murders but by the 30th she's telling the cops what she knows about the LaBianca murder and landing Tex and Leslie right in it.<br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-51032422797539233992020-09-28T01:58:59.480-04:002020-09-28T01:58:59.480-04:00starviego typed:
According to Paul Watkins' b...starviego typed:<br /><br /><b>According to Paul Watkins' book, Beausoleil and a girlfriend drove up to Barker with two powerwagons in late '68. So where did BB get these vehicles?</b><br /><br />According to Bob Murphy in his book "Desert Shadows", shortly after the Michigan skiploader was torched on 9/19/1969, Park Ranger Dick Powell was searching side roads and canyons and came upon Nancy Pitman, Ouisch, Soupspoon Lane, and a few others with a red Toyota 4-wheel drive jeep that he was searching for. Powell surreptitiously wrote down the plate number from the jeep, and later called it in to park headquarters. Murphy wrote: <i>"Late in the afternoon of September 23, (Chief Park Ranger Homer) Leach radioed Powell that the license plate on the red Toyota was registered to a four-wheel drive Dodge Power Wagon that belonged to Gail Beausoleil of the Los Angeles area.</i><br /> While this doesn't answer the question of where Bobby and Gail Beausoleil got the power wagons, it would seem they registered them in their names.Gorodishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554015159612108936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-46915085932651853412020-09-27T08:29:54.938-04:002020-09-27T08:29:54.938-04:00Grim- all of the points you make are some of the s...Grim- all of the points you make are some of the same points I consider when we discuss motive. No, the points you make don’t prove HS, or disprove the copycat motive theory, but when taken in context with all of the evidence, testimony, ‘confessions’, behavior prior to the murders, behavior post murders, to me, it paints a pretty clear picture. <br /><br />I’ve always felt Susan’s blabbing was a result of her knowing she was never getting out of prison- because she KNEW she was involved in the murders. The paranoia in the family was real. The escalation of behavior (grand theft auto- rape claims- cops coming out because of machine gun firing, the ‘snipers’ trained on the fuzz during a visit, the Lotsapoppa shooting, the killing of Hinman for $$$, and her involvement in Tate/LB etc etc - she knew it was over. <br /><br />After they were caught, their antics continued into the courtroom and on the sidewalks of Los Angeles furthering the court of public opinion to be not in their favor. <br /><br />To me it’s a very black and white case of “if A, then B and C” where the passive clues as to WHY, fit. And I personally believe Susan’s first confessions are the closest thing to the truth (minus Linda’s 18 days solidifying their fates) that we’ll ever get. <br /><br />AstroCreephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14400828131305289484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-23739958223425616632020-09-26T15:19:15.155-04:002020-09-26T15:19:15.155-04:00“Grim, thank you so much for the link! I actually ...“Grim, thank you so much for the link! I actually had read the post before, just forgot about it.”<br /><br />I want to read this review too....have just watched the film and hated the ending. Yeuch - pure Tarantino.<br />Grim is like a human camera or human encyclopaedia. It’s unnerving. I can barely remember last night and he pulls things out of some random shit he looked at in the 80s!!LastGirlOnTheLefthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836640848171283652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-49707536720792059002020-09-26T15:15:46.784-04:002020-09-26T15:15:46.784-04:00“Grim, thank you so much for the link! I actually ...“Grim, thank you so much for the link! I actually had read the post before, just forgot about it.”<br /><br />I want to read this review too....have just watched the film and hated the ending. Yeuch - pure Tarantino.<br />Grim is like a human camera or human encyclopaedia. It’s unnerving. I can barely remember last night and he pulls things out of some random shit he looked at in the 80s!!LastGirlOnTheLefthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836640848171283652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-68334576275969036062020-09-26T14:24:55.497-04:002020-09-26T14:24:55.497-04:00Grimtraveller, your say:
��
"Cue Mario"
...Grimtraveller, your say:<br />��<br />"Cue Mario"<br /><br />Well, I'm sure you're reflecting on OJ Simpson himself and The OJ Simpson Case Criminal Trial.<br /><br />There are MANY items that I can bring out pertaining to the case that haven't gone Mainstream-Media yet.<br />(Maybe another time)<br /><br />But I'll say this. For a certain amount of time in The OJ Case, Simpson appeared to be in <br />"REAL-HOT-WATER," so to speak.<br />So you're conclusion in the case?<br />(Enter Attorney Johnnie Cochran)<br />I can go with that for a certain period of time.<br /><br />Mario George Nitrini 111<br />-----<br />The OJ Simpson CaseMario George Nitrini 111https://www.blogger.com/profile/15164255501134126671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-58912932201692805082020-09-26T09:12:24.083-04:002020-09-26T09:12:24.083-04:00I am pretty sure that if they all kept their mouth...I am pretty sure that if they all kept their mouths shut, Dianne Lake would not have said anything about what Leslie told her. I don't believe that she said a word until the trial was already to begin or had already began.Matthew https://www.blogger.com/profile/17147415819068597641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-54463362460110407402020-09-25T17:27:47.562-04:002020-09-25T17:27:47.562-04:00Peter said:
Susan confessed to anybody and eve... Peter said:<br /><br /> <b>Susan confessed to anybody and everybody. Pat and Tex left prints. I believe Leslie confessed to other family members not part of the conspiracy. Probably the only one who would not have been convicted was Charlie</b><br /><br />I couldn't disagree more.<br />Firstly, on what basis do you approach from ? When I speak on this I am basing my conclusions on one thing; that all of the perps keep schtuum. Imagine that they all kept their mouths shut. On that basis, only Van Houten is at risk and that from Dianne Lake. Because if Lake spoke to the cops of Leslie saying she stabbed someone already dead, and it was found that some stab wounds were post mortem, then that is powerful corroboration. Leslie was no med student so how could she even suspect post mortem wounds unless she was there ?<br />But the others ? Nothing ties Susan to Cielo if she shuts up. Linda is virtually a spook without anyone to speak of her involvement. Finding Tex and Pat's prints only establishes that Pat was there after Tuesday noon and Tex sometime on the Friday. It doesn't prove them guilty of murder. Especially when one considers that 25 readable prints were never identified and that Pat and Tex not only had no continuous criminal history, but were in the system for trifles and nothing even remotely approaching violence. You'd hardly look at their records and say "Hey ! These two look good for the job." Their prints were identified <i>after</i> Atkins had talked and it was more a case of corroboration that there was something to her story. Remember, one of the big shocks was that young women were involved.<br />In the history of criminal law, how many times have we seen perps who looked dead and buried at one point acquitted, because of a good lawyer ? [Cue Mario !]<br />Without Atkins blabbing to Ronnie Howard & Virginia Graham, without Manson boasting to Al Springer, without Clem & Charlie bragging to Paul Watkins about Shorty etc, as Paul Fitzgerald told a journalist in Dec '69 "all the prosecution has is 2 fingerprints." These prove nothing in terms of committing murder. Fitzgerald actually at one point mooted that Pat's prints were at Cielo because she'd visited as a friend. Had there not been blabbing and Mrs Chapman said she washed the Krenwinkel door on the Tuesday, how could she be a proven murderer if she said she visited on Wednesday or Thursday when Mrs Chapman wasn't there ?<br />Obviously, we can all be wise in retrospect but retrospect is all we've ever had.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-36433596040125781092020-09-23T17:49:38.348-04:002020-09-23T17:49:38.348-04:00All fo them. Susan confessed to anybody and every...All fo them. Susan confessed to anybody and everybody. Pat and Tex left prints. I believe Leslie confessed to other family members not part of the conspiracy. Probably the only one who would not have been convicted was Charlie. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-63788528005514040442020-09-23T01:55:15.518-04:002020-09-23T01:55:15.518-04:00Grim, thank you so much for the link! I actually ...Grim, thank you so much for the link! I actually had read the post before, just forgot about it.CarolMRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06357698369178272616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-53890005690932535482020-09-22T15:04:46.522-04:002020-09-22T15:04:46.522-04:00According to Paul Watkins' book, Beausoleil an...According to Paul Watkins' book, Beausoleil and a girlfriend drove up to Barker with two powerwagons in late '68. So where did BB get these vehicles?starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-16943136851694217732020-09-21T18:56:55.444-04:002020-09-21T18:56:55.444-04:00Speaking of Once Upon A Time In Hollyweird...
Roy...Speaking of Once Upon A Time In Hollyweird...<br /><br />Roy Head has passed...<br /><br />Here's the real Roy Head on Hollywood A Go-Go<br /><br />https://youtu.be/3gEnQ8VVWEUDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17388908256992077315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-70235415765061228972020-09-20T04:54:30.765-04:002020-09-20T04:54:30.765-04:00Gorodish said...
I've always thought all ... Gorodish said...<br /><br /> <b>I've always thought all those wayward members that returned - TJ, Bo, Kitty, Watkins, Flynn,....all started rejoining the group once Manson was safely incarcerated</b><br /><br />That's a really good point. You could even add Barbara Hoyt to that number in a roundabout way.<br /><br /> CarolMR said...<br /><br /> <b>ColScott, did you ever post your review of ONCE UPON A TIME IN HOLLYWOOD?</b><br /><br />He certainly did, right about <a href="https://www.mansonblog.com/2020/01/the-col-presents-last-word-on-quentin.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-76900452442093387492020-09-20T02:57:07.230-04:002020-09-20T02:57:07.230-04:00I've always thought all those wayward members ...I've always thought all those wayward members that returned - TJ, Bo, Kitty, Watkins, Flynn,....all started rejoining the group once Manson was safely incarcerated. Manson was the catalyst for all the violence, and his physical presence seemed to instill fear into the group.Gorodishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16554015159612108936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-23563390988743755352020-09-20T00:00:07.283-04:002020-09-20T00:00:07.283-04:00Touché. Touché. Dan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-57138439515075765062020-09-19T23:47:32.398-04:002020-09-19T23:47:32.398-04:00ColScott, did you ever post your review of ONCE UP...ColScott, did you ever post your review of ONCE UPON A TIME IN HOLLYWOOD? I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the movie.CarolMRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06357698369178272616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-5824957995505457132020-09-19T20:14:13.945-04:002020-09-19T20:14:13.945-04:00Dan S said...
Charlie probably respected tj m...Dan S said...<br /><br /> <b>Charlie probably respected tj more for not doing it</b><br /><br />I can only think of three places where Charlie's reaction to TJ in relation to the Lotsapoppa incident is recorded and none of them are positive or respectful. Now granted, Danny DeCarlo may not hold much credibility with people but he described Charlie whaling into TJ for not pulling the trigger; True, Nuel Emmons may not hold much credibility with people but in his book "Charlie" is critical of TJ for not helping Charlie during the incident; But George Stimson <i>does</i> have Charlie cred and he quotes Charlie extensively in his book and on the Crowe shooting Charlie hardly shows TJ respect for although he does say TJ was the only one to back him up by going with him {to give credit where it's due}, he describes him as having frozen with fear and peeing himself.<br />So somehow respecting him for not doing it is not the conclusion I would reach !grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-89597633291032865152020-09-19T15:29:43.077-04:002020-09-19T15:29:43.077-04:00Grim
I am coming more and more to your way of thi...Grim<br /><br />I am coming more and more to your way of thinking these days since I turned 90 back in April.<br />I think a core argument that should be made is that Charlie had great instincts but the education of a twelve year old. He had a good thing going with his commune but had to fuck it up. Hell in the courtroom he could have walked but he screwed that pooch as well.<br /><br /><br />Charlie had GREAT instincts. Charlie was dumb as shit.ColScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04198505620789173534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-66515208928669567132020-09-19T11:57:51.682-04:002020-09-19T11:57:51.682-04:00Charlie probably respected tj more for not doing i...Charlie probably respected tj more for not doing it.Dan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-36880600218051093892020-09-19T11:54:41.855-04:002020-09-19T11:54:41.855-04:00Tex woke up that fateful morning ready to impress ...Tex woke up that fateful morning ready to impress his peer group. Charlie made the murder part of it seem to be nothing worse than stealing typewritersDan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058602981660065969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-85211132446098237852020-09-19T09:09:17.434-04:002020-09-19T09:09:17.434-04:00Dan S said...
Also note that TJ couldn't do it...<i>Dan S said...<br />Also note that TJ couldn't do it. So Charlie's murder orders (or ramblings) only work on someone ready to murder</i><br /><br /><b>Yet Manson and TJ remained close until TJ's death.</b><br /><br /><br />Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-12604075674595561162020-09-19T09:05:55.779-04:002020-09-19T09:05:55.779-04:00Dan S said:
Also note that TJ couldn't do ... Dan S said:<br /><br /> <b>Also note that TJ couldn't do it. So Charlie's murder orders (or ramblings) only work on someone ready to murder</b><br /><br />I can see where you're going with this and it's a legit argument from just about any logical viewpoint.<br />But I think it's a nuanced point, as are many. <br />Murder is an odd thing in many peoples' minds. There are people that will murder but who will not view their actions as murder. Many of us happily label terrorists, hit men, gang bangers, invading soldiers and the like as murderers but they certainly don't see themselves that way. So when a phrase like "ready to murder" is used, I think the context is crucial. What does it mean and from whose viewpoint are looking ?<br />One of the women on the female "death row" that the 3 women were on when initially convicted was a murderer called Jennifer {Karlene Faith refers to her as "Linda"}. She deliberately murdered her lover's wife. She didn't see herself as being in a war of any kind. There wasn't any moral ambiguity in her mind about society's values on one hand and hers on the other. <br />That's not the case with the Family.<br />It's not very satisfying to look at things like that. I know it is frequently put that "these people just enjoyed killing and wanted to kill" but it is such a paradox that this is too simplistic an explanation. Now, don't get me wrong, it's not a way of saying that they were nice kids really, and they <i>just</i> fell into bad company. In a way, for me the paradox makes it {and them} worse because then, one is dealing with all kinds of unknowns and it also gives us a ready made excuse not to look at ourselves, our societies/cultures, our values etc. <br />Also, it causes one to ask this ¬> what does one make of people like Cathy Gillies, Ruth Anne Moorehouse and Vern Plumlee who were "ready to kill" {ie, couldn't wait To or were ready to follow the group out on the night of the LaBianca killings} or Brooks Poston and Juanita Wildebush who both admit that at one point they were so under Charlie's spell they would have killed if he'd told them to ?<br />Is it so simple to suppose that on the morning of August 8th, Tex and Pat were, in their own minds ready to kill ? Neither had shown any history of violence, even minor. They were in the system for such trifling matters. That's partly why I've long leaned towards the idea that even though their prints were found at the scene of the crime, presuming the perps kept their mouths shut, a tenacious lawyer playing their cards right could have got a walk for both. <br />We'll never of course know this, but how many of the killers would have ended up on death row independent of Charlie ? It's kind of ironic that the two of whom we have prior knowledge of a readiness to kill {Susan and Leslie} turned out to be the ones that actually baulked when it actually came to it.<br />So for me, it's not a simple matter that can be fixed with a simple sentence. There's a whole universe of nuance and paradox in there. grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-45415430734828852732020-09-19T07:53:21.271-04:002020-09-19T07:53:21.271-04:00Dan S said:
Tex's dumbassery is key to the re... Dan S said:<br /><br /><b>Tex's dumbassery is key to the results though</b><br /><br />The entire Tex led aftermath is what gives the events their horror. After all, murder is ultimately a results led affair and it was what Tex <i>did</i> that made the papers, kept making the news, got him and the others convicted and sentenced to death and why he remains in jail with little real hope of ever being paroled, despite the changes he's made in his life.<br />No doubting that.<br />But it is so important to understand what brought him and the others to that point where they were <i>actually</i> ready and willing to kill. He, Pat, Bruce & Bobby hadn't shown up until then {as far as we have ever been informed} any propensity or desire towards violence, let alone murderous violence. That wasn't true of Charlie, Susan, Clem or Leslie. Or even Bill Vance. And with Larry Jones, one can see it was the start up of his, shall we say, violence of mind.<br />But going back to Tex, it is easy to see why Charlie and the women always take centre stage and he lurks in the shadows. The murders didn't happen <i>because</i> of Tex. He was the most effective instrument in carrying them out.<br /><br /> <b>Name one other example of strong arming for money? The Examples you gave are not money related</b><br /><br />Lotsapoppa is.<br />But my general point was that there was an escalation of violence. The violence didn't just appear with tales of HS and it wasn't just a reflection of the more violent atmosphere among young people in the USA and western wold post '67. It was part of Charlie from relatively early on ~ he was no stranger to rape or clouting. It was inevitable that in an arena where he was the undisputed leader, that would start to work its way out from him on his group to being visited on others, by the Family, at his instruction or by his example, for whatever reason. And given that they needed money, that some of those tactics would sooner or later be employed to get it. Part of the Cielo mission was to "get all of" the inhabitants money "<i>and</i> kill whoever was there." <br />The Family used to be given money ~ part of why Pat & Squeaky were so impressed with Charlie was that he always seemed to come through financially which deepened their trust in him. Sandy turned money over to him. Juanita turned money over to him and so did other people and we're not talking peanuts. But by the summer, they were stealing people's money {Abigail Folger, Charles Melton, Lotsapoppa, Gary}, threatening them {Gary again}, demanding it {Dennis Wilson}, attempting to kill them in order to keep it when they were found out {Poppa again}, acting as though any money on the planet really was theirs as Linda said Tex had told her on their first meeting. Summer '69 was the start of that strong arming of people for money. <br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.com