tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post7260856178533481765..comments2024-03-18T15:40:57.986-04:00Comments on The Manson Family Blog: Did Vincent Bugliosi Diss Stephen Kay In Helter Skelter?Matthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comBlogger249125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-71933084052719383222018-03-21T23:46:11.285-04:002018-03-21T23:46:11.285-04:00Patrick Perry said...
"Diss" is ver... Patrick Perry said...<br /><br /> <b>"Diss" is verb and a slang term, probably short for "dismissed"</b><br /><br />It's short for "disrespected."grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-11371141816828605972018-03-21T23:44:42.569-04:002018-03-21T23:44:42.569-04:00ziggyosterberg said...
Have you ever been to Ingl...ziggyosterberg said...<br /><br /><b>Have you ever been to Inglewood, California, or Mobile, Alabama?<br /><br />And please do tell us more about the America that you've experienced through books</b><br /><br />An interesting statement from Pat from her 2016 parole hearing regarding both California and Alabama:<br />"When I went back to Alabama in sixties, it was totally segregated. And there were black and white water fountains. And there were, if you get on the bus, it was a very strange world, because it was absolutely segregated. When I went to counters I was told I couldn't sit there or that I had to go to the back, because that was not a place where white people sat. I was told by my uncle when you walk down the street you don't ever step off the curb for a black person. It was, it was a world I did not understand at all. And I felt so out of place. I was called a Yankee ~ everywhere I went I was called a Yankee, because, for some reason, if you don't have a southern sound to your voice, everyone would call me a Yankee. It was a really odd environment at that time. And there were marches. And my uncle was rather violent. And he had a gun and said he wanted to go stop those marches. I came from Los Angeles. And in Los Angeles I had Hispanic friends. And I was brought up that, although there was very much division even in Westchester, there weren't a lot of black families there, if any. I did know, at our church and stuff, there were blacks, whites, brown people. It was integrated here." <br /><br />It's interesting that without prompting, she comments on the fact that she had Hispanic friends but says nothing about any black ones and that she makes the point that in her area there were hardly any Black families "if any." Her only stated experience of Black people was in her church and this would have been when she was younger, before her family fell apart and she moved with her Mum to Alabama. But that was hardly an environment where one would pick up on the nuances of Black people talk.<br /><br /> grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-27432149249485220972017-12-26T23:06:07.467-05:002017-12-26T23:06:07.467-05:00"Diss" is verb and a slang term, probabl..."Diss" is verb and a slang term, probably short for "dismissed" as you suggest. It is something you would have heard in the 1990's in high schools, or between competing wannabe rappers...lol. It's not really a formal term in good journalism, IMHO. Sorry if I am dissing the author for its use.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08168802604369029831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-2319810254531376572017-12-07T19:32:41.873-05:002017-12-07T19:32:41.873-05:00Here's an irony; in the search index of this b...Here's an irony; in the search index of this blog, Kay comes up as spelled with both a 'v' and a 'ph' !grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-8376335556592037362017-10-19T13:48:35.072-04:002017-10-19T13:48:35.072-04:00grimtraveller said...
Have a look at this pol...grimtraveller said...<br /><br /> <b>Have a look at this police photo and pay particular attention to the yardstick to the right....He appears to be 5'2 or 3 in it.</b><br /><br />Cielo.com has subsequently pointed out to me that the subject is supposed to stand a couple of yards forward of the wall that the yardstick is on to accurately record their height. There's a box that he would have stood in and when doing so, has a height of approximately 5 feet 7 inches.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-52357999536873349212017-10-19T13:40:45.377-04:002017-10-19T13:40:45.377-04:00grimtraveller said...
Paul Whitley is frequentl... grimtraveller said...<br /><br /> <b>Paul Whitley is frequently down as "Whiteley," I've written him down that way far more than any other. He's nearly always written down that way. He's written that way in Ed Sanders' "The Family," William Zamora's "Trial by your peers" and "Helter Skelter," to name but 3. But Whitley is his name. In Bobby's first trial, he's asked to say who he is and to spell it and that's how he does so;<br /> THE WITNESS: I do.<br /><br /> THE CLERK: Be seated and state your name, please.<br /><br /> THE WITNESS: Paul J. Whitley, W-h-i-t-l-e-y</b><br /><br />Now how weird is that ? The same cop Paul that spelt his name as Whitley in the Hinman trial of Bobby, in the Hinman/Shea of Charlie two years later, spells it as Whiteley ! After swearing to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth !!<br /><br />THE CLERK: Please state your name for the record.<br /><br />THE WITNESS: Paul J. Whiteley, W-h-i-t-e-l-e-y.<br /><br />Of course, he could have changed it in that time. One of my closest friends I knew for a good 15 or more years as Diane then one day she told me that it wasn't her name, that it was Deanne and that's what she wanted to be known as and that's what I've called her for the last 17 or so years. In the first 15 or so, her husband, her sister, her Mum, all our mutual friends {and enemies !} knew her as Diane.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-68877819087426615932017-08-01T08:17:26.484-04:002017-08-01T08:17:26.484-04:00Amp1776 said...
It does seem to be buglosi... Amp1776 said...<br /><br /> <b>It does seem to be buglosi's style. Also can be seen where Mason is accused of being 5'2"</b><br /><br />Have a look at this <a href="http://www.cielodrive.com/photo-archive/charles-manson-dec-69.php" rel="nofollow">police photo</a> and pay particular attention to the yardstick to the right. Now, you could say that the police deliberately fiddled with it to make Charlie look small although why the hell they would do that when it was an official picture and his real height if not 5ft 2ins could easily be ascertained, is not only beyond me but probably them too !<br />Bugliosi mentions Charlie's height specifically a couple of times. The first time is when he tells the reader of the first time he saw him. Now, pretty much any of us would do that if we were seeing a celebrity we knew well for the first time and they were smaller than we'd expected. I saw Michael Portillo once, who was then a conservative party politician, standing by the road as I drove by. I'd seen him on TV tons of times but seeing him in real life, I was struck by how small he looked. Same with John Bercow, the speaker in the house of commons. He's small. I wasn't even aware that there were issues about his height until a couple of years after I'd actually seen him. Other politicians made jokes about him and when it made the news, I was telling people I'd seen him and how small he was. It was nothing to do with put downs, I like the man and he's a good politician even though I'd be unlikely to vote Tory.<br />The other time Bugliosi mentions his height is when he's trying to ascertain whether it was Charlie that Hatami saw at Cielo in March '69. The height thing is part of a general description and it's rather stretching it to read 'subtle diss' into it.<br />That police photo is, if nothing else, some very interesting viewing. He appears to be 5'2 or 3 in it.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-47493704194481129492017-07-31T12:12:12.729-04:002017-07-31T12:12:12.729-04:00Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
Charlie said a l... Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...<br /><br /> <b>Charlie said a lot of crazy thing during that time and afterwards in interviews that i seriously doubt he believed</b><br /><br />Well, then whatever people take from those things if they rebound on him would be his own fault.<br /><br /><b>attention starved, parentless, directionless children turn into attention whores 99 percent of the time</b><br /><br />While they are not the only ones, I won't disagree with you that that will so often have an adverse effect. I'll add to that that some of those attention whores may end up being involved in murders and may derive some perverse satisfaction from the stir they generate. They may deep down like having lots of people talk to them, talk about them, have people busting a gut tying to interview them, be the cause of much debate....<br />Or they may hate it once the thrill runs out.<br /><br /> <b>and thats what happened with Charlie</b><br /><br />That all said though, the desire for attention isn't some bizarre aberration or kink in the human psyche. It's as natural to us as breathing for we are social creatures, even when we want to be left alone.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-25591154253305952082017-07-31T11:54:49.619-04:002017-07-31T11:54:49.619-04:00Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
First off he sho... Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...<br /><br /> <b>First off he shot Lotsapoppa because he saw no other way to get him to not go to the ranch and shoot it up</b><br /><br />Even if that was true, it kills your argument that it was not in his nature. You are in effect saying the opposite, that it <i>was</i> in his nature because it was the only way he could see to resolve the situation. Death to Poppa was the only way he could see. <br />Think about that.<br /><br /><b>second he slashed Garys ear to get him to hand over the money he thought he had</b><br /><br />Once again demonstrating the opposite to the point you're trying to argue. Violence was his way to make Gary hand over the money he thought he had {according to your argument}. You're in effect saying that it was his way because that was how he figured he could get Gary to do what he wanted. No discussion. Just violence. His nature.<br /><br /><b>him "ordering BB to finish him off" is Bobby and Susans claim</b><br /><br />Bobby does not claim this. He denies this continually. He does say he feels he was manipulated into killing Gary but it's a somewhat different argument.<br />As for your namesake, her various claims are the living definition of the word "unreliable." Which is unfortunate in a sense because this one was one of her her consistencies.<br /><br /><b>third he did not participate in Shortys murder</b><br /><br />Read George Stimson's book "Goodbye Helter Skelter" if you haven't already. Have a look on the chapter on Shorty's murder and have a good gander at what Charlie says. It's long, it's fascinating, there's lots of Charliespeak and some of his best wriggling and even his most ardent supporter could not read that and say "he did not participate in Shorty's murder" and expect to be in any way taken seriously. You call me a <i>jack of all trades wannabe TLB expert</i> and post stalker but all I do is take on board what people say, even you. Unless you are seriously stating that what you say is such hogwash that it is not worthy of being considered.<br /><br /><b>lets be clear Charlie was no saint and he deserved to be locked up but not for murder</b><br /><br />He wasn't even <i>arrested</i> for Lotsapoppa, his sword strike on Gary was officially listed as "possibly fatal" and the only reason we'll never know if it was fatal, given that Bobby, Susan and Mary were no doctors, is because Bobby ended the possibility by killing him {!}, and he was as involved in Shorty's death as it is possible to be ~ by his own admission.<br />You'll note that I've left out Cielo and Waverley.....<br /><br /> <b>and not for anywhere near the half century hes been behind vars</b><br /><br />Well, that's always going to be the big debate isn't it ? As long as you cling to the fantasy that this was the Tex and Linda drug show, then for that set of murders you'll always have a point that you can fling out whenever the weight of evidence to the contrary shows up. But for the others, particularly with no remorse in his attitude but a defiant stance, he's really not given the authorities much choice. Even if HS was never mntioned.<br />I understand why he has little trust of LE but the ultimate fact will always remain that he <i>did not have to</i> continue down the criminal road.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-16990882452920102092017-07-30T23:12:34.039-04:002017-07-30T23:12:34.039-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Susanatkinsgonorhheahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06345166014895992429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-36025386131342907942017-07-30T23:12:07.194-04:002017-07-30T23:12:07.194-04:00I have to admit im really curious to hear Simons d...I have to admit im really curious to hear Simons description of or take on the events at Cielo and WaverlySusanatkinsgonorhheahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06345166014895992429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-28789458624458845692017-07-30T21:49:05.310-04:002017-07-30T21:49:05.310-04:00grimtraveller said...
"On the other hand, th...<br />grimtraveller said...<br /><br />"<b>On the other hand, there are and have been numerous contributors to these pages that have had tremendous insights into varying aspects of the case, whether one is sold on those insights or not. Right now, I can't think of a better place to come and ask questions and try to clarify matters and test the waters of what one might think.</b>" <br /><br />Agree 100% with that.<br /><br />However, as it relates to Simon, he wasn't engaging in some sort of Socratic dialogue. More often than not, he was simply being a dick. <br /><br />But I did enjoy the rich irony of his pseudo-moralist posturing when he's mining mass murder for personal gain.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-16248202789028300802017-07-30T19:09:20.287-04:002017-07-30T19:09:20.287-04:00Charlie saud alot of crazy thing during that time ...Charlie saud alot of crazy thing during that time and afterwards in interviews that i seriously doubt he believed, attention starved, parentless, directionless children turn into attention whores 99 percent of the time and thats what happened with CharlieSusanatkinsgonorhheahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06345166014895992429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-61528308878577300982017-07-30T19:04:42.990-04:002017-07-30T19:04:42.990-04:00First off he shot Lotsapoppa because he saw no oth...First off he shot Lotsapoppa because he saw no other way to get him to not go to the ranch and shoot it up, second he slashed Garys ear to get him to hand over the money he thought he had, him "ordering BB to finish him off" is Bobby and Susans claim, third he did not participate in Shortys murder, and fourth all the rest of the claims heresay and even if the part about beating the women although wrong doesnt make him a murderer, lets be clear Charlie was no saint and he deserved to be locked up but not for murder and not for anywhere near the half century hes been behind varsSusanatkinsgonorhheahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06345166014895992429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-11777841379327090192017-07-30T18:51:34.902-04:002017-07-30T18:51:34.902-04:00gonorhhea said...
"Charlie: ...it simply wasn...gonorhhea said...<br />"Charlie: ...it simply wasn't in his nature to want death and blood and destruction up there."<br /><br />Huh? Is this the same Charlie that pumped a bullet into Lostsapoppa's stomach? That slashed Gary Hinman across the face(and then ordered BB to finish him off)? That tied up the LaBianca's knowing that they would be murdered? That participated in the murder of Shorty? That tried to get Sunshine Pierce, Paul Watkins, and Juan Flynn to kill? That slapped, kicked, and beat his women? That threatened his own devotees with getting their throats slashed and breasts cut off? That told his followers that they should be ready to murder children?<br /><br />SERIOUSLY?starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-35746900450595205142017-07-30T18:37:07.632-04:002017-07-30T18:37:07.632-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.starviegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256800799989566468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-39679463738084591672017-07-30T15:32:33.621-04:002017-07-30T15:32:33.621-04:00David said...
Simon's book is available
... David said...<br /><br /> <b>Simon's book is available</b><br /><br />Well, I've bought my copy. Hopefully it will be with me before I go off on my holiday.<br />I wonder if Stephen Kay will autograph it for me ? 🤥grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-37013844247600936462017-07-30T15:19:41.855-04:002017-07-30T15:19:41.855-04:00Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
i believe Charli... Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...<br /><br /> <b>i believe Charlie had some knowledge of what happened but it simply wasnt in his nature to want death and blood and destruction up there</b><br /><br />Even Charlie himself might have issues with you on that one !<br /><br /> <b>numerous people who knew Charlie at McNeil and Terminal Island have said Charlie was scared of his own shadow and was the last person who kill or order anyone killed</b><br /><br />And that might well have been the case while he was at McNeil and Terminal Island. I personally think that was probably the case throughout '67 and the majority of '68.<br />But '68 was a strange year, particularly given the events of the year preceding it. On both sides of the Atlantic, many people that were espousing peace and flowers and a cessation to war started along a more militant and less overtly tolerant path.<br /><br /><b>didnt actually pick up and read Helter Skelter until 1986</b><br /><br />Although I read the book in '78, interestingly we were the same age when we first read it. And here we are a fifth of the way into the next century...<br /><br /><b>both nights were Texs show</b><br /><br />I'd say it was Tex's lead to Charlie's rhythm. <br /><br /> ziggyosterberg said...<br /><br /><b>I can't wait to read it : 348 pages of a guy asking readers questions about the case</b><br /><br />On the other hand, there are and have been numerous contributors to these pages that have had tremendous insights into varying aspects of the case, whether one is sold on those insights or not. Right now, I can't think of a better place to come and ask questions and try to clarify matters and test the waters of what one might think.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-65748450079660926742017-07-30T15:18:18.292-04:002017-07-30T15:18:18.292-04:00Lol because if you disagree with ANYTHING a black ...Lol because if you disagree with ANYTHING a black person does youre a bigot and a racistSusanatkinsgonorhheahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06345166014895992429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-86256100011475495282017-07-30T14:12:49.135-04:002017-07-30T14:12:49.135-04:00Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
Oops forgot expe... Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...<br /><br /> <b>Oops forgot expert on American jurisprudence even though hes never actually been to the US</b><br /><br />Expert ?<br />I've taken the time to find out what the law did say so that I would understand it and not drive a plough through it if I didn't like the outcome of a case.<br />Lots of people can tell you lots of things about places they've never been and people they've never met. A bit like you re: Charlie.<br />That's the joy of conversation, you discover things to check out, even with you. Since '68 I've hung out with hundreds of people from India, Pakistan, Bangla Desh {when it became that} and Sri Lanka and it would be the strangest thing going if after all that I couldn't tell you anything about those countries even though I've never been to any of them.<br />Watch out for those shaven headed females, 71.<br /><br /><b>What you dont understand is that i DO know the law and im saying the law is wrong in this case, im not an idiot i understand what the statutes are regarding conspiracy, my position is that theyre wrong, laws are written by men and nen are sometimes wrong, me telling someone to kill someone IF thats what Manson did does NOT make me guilty of first degree murder</b><br /><br />You clearly <i>don't</i> know the law you keep commenting about.<br />That said, and I agreed with you in the thread where 114 of your posts got deleted, I think it is definitely a debate to be had as to whether someone who actually physically commits murder should be given the same punishment as someone who, say, sets up a murder or sets up a robbery in which a murder is committed even though that wasn't their intention or whether an unarmed robber should be given the same punishment as their accomplice who is armed and commits murder during the robbery.<br />Because there are nuances to many situations, it's not a hard and fast straight down the line easy yes or no. In some cases it seems ridiculous to me that all members of a "conspiracy" get the same punishment because of the possible actions of just one of them. On the other hand, I come back to the example of the gang situation where the leader of the gang orders their underlings to go cap someone or the syndicate boss that tells one of their guys to wipe someone out. Are those leaders less culpable for the killings ? Debatable.<br />This case does arguably have some of those matters but in terms of Charlie, none of it applies to him.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-69507548484695908852017-07-30T11:38:07.612-04:002017-07-30T11:38:07.612-04:00Regarding Simon, and any other finger pointer out ...<br />Regarding Simon, and any other finger pointer out there who wants to tell us what bad people they deem us to be - Bill Nelson took the sanctimonious approach to this case too. It worked out really well for him.<br /><br />And it's a slippery slope to hypocrisy when you start judging people and defining yourself by what you claim you don't do. There are some who would say that writing a book about the case is exploiting and cashing in on a tragedy. But not me, though. ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-34488186346178988702017-07-30T11:34:17.358-04:002017-07-30T11:34:17.358-04:00Matt said...
"Perhaps, but what you don&...<br />Matt said...<br /> <br />"<b>Perhaps, but what you don't seem to understand is common decency.</b>" <br /><br /><br />If only you had the time or energy to play whack-a-mole with a guy who double posts every. single. time.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-11879440895763947342017-07-30T06:51:53.420-04:002017-07-30T06:51:53.420-04:00Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
What you dont underst...<i>Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...<br />What you dont understand is that i DO know the law and im saying the law is wrong in this case, im not an idiot i understand what the statutes are regarding conspiracy...</i><br /><br /><b>Perhaps, but what you don't seem to understand is common decency.</b><br /><br /><br />Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-86961027289064213292017-07-30T03:12:08.980-04:002017-07-30T03:12:08.980-04:00If his post history on here is any indication it w...If his post history on here is any indication it will be just more of the accepted "Charlie made me do it" narrative, i read a description on his FB page and his main position is that defense counsel did a horrible job and that the girls basically got a raw deal due to Mansons machinations with defense counselSusanatkinsgonorhheahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06345166014895992429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8171370990642927748.post-53290831385000987492017-07-30T02:35:43.228-04:002017-07-30T02:35:43.228-04:00Yes indeed Grim...a tiny minded bigot...god u must...Yes indeed Grim...a tiny minded bigot...god u must get so sick of that pathetic shit...your grace is a credit to you...Penny lanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10401896105440499937noreply@blogger.com