We found the biographies and probation recommendations very interesting. They were very sympathetic to Sadie, but not as kind to Mary.
Here are the 10 pages devoted to Sadie. It contains a really good biography followed up by the court’s opinion of her personality, mental state, etc.
It also DOCUMENTS that they were calling themselves the "family" back in 1968. It has been widely believed that the term was not coined until the summer of 1969 by some of the girls at Spahn Ranch. Manson himself has also said that there was "no family".
Documentation always ALWAYS A L W A Y S trumps interviews and "first hand accounts".
Enjoy...
Deb, your investigative skills never cease to amaze me. Great job. Matt, is there any way all of this can put in a pdf format?
ReplyDeleteThank you, Doc! We ran into a problem when we made the Vincent Bugliosi Story available in a pdf for anyone to download for free. The file was too big for Google Blogger to handle and it could only be downloaded a limited number of times. IIRC. Another website ended up hosting it for us.
ReplyDeleteThe Witches of Mendocino file is about the same size so we wanted to figure out something where we could give it directly to our readers instead of going through a third party.
This is great, thanks!
ReplyDeleteDeb- incredible work as always ;)
ReplyDeleteSexy Sadie what have you done
ReplyDeleteSexy Sadie you made a fool of everyone
Nice work Deb!
ReplyDeleteOne wonders if Susan Atkins would of been incarcerated instead of put on probation, if she would of not ended up in prison for life.
ReplyDeleteShe was a very damaged soul, and an especially fresh catch for Manson. Squeaky too.
Wow, that's a pretty in depth profile of Sadie. Surprised they put so much effort into it.
ReplyDeleteAlso I can't imagine Sadie lived up to her part of the parole conditions and wonder why her parole wasn't ever revoked unless doing garbage runs were considered a real humanitarian job?
Can anyone tell me, when Sadie/Susan was arrested in Oregon with the two fugitives did she point a gun at one officer and say she's blow his head off? Was that in the Sanders book?
ReplyDeleteShe seemed to have an aggressive and adventurous side and then a little girl lost side in contrast. I wonder if the lost girl wasn't a combination of the real her and being manipulative.
Squeaky Fromme was spotted at a doctor's office recently. One wonders if she has written off CM for good.
ReplyDeleteMr. H :)
ReplyDeleteThe incident you refer to was mentioned in Bugs book I believe. I think what happened was that when they were arrested for armed robbery they found the gun and she TOLD the cop she was going to use it to shoot him. I am not sure she actually pointed the gun at him, but I don't remember and dont have the book with me...
My take on Sadie is that her bark was much worse than her bite.
After reading her final version of the events in " The Myth of H/S" and Texas most recent version in his online book over at his site, and reading all the parole hearing transcripts over the years...
Sadie herself couldn't have killed anyone.
It is my opinion that Sadie craved being the center of attention, and would go further than most others to be the center of attention. She may have been among the loudest of the girls. But- to me- she was not one of the most dangerous. Her lust for the spotlight- got her in some bad spots- and she paid the price for getting into the worst of spots on those two nights, and she was a bastard for what went down, and her participation in it.
But there are several instances when she had a clear chance to personally hurt others and just didn't
( couldn't?)
She "lost" the gun to Gary...
She " lost" her knife at Cielo...
I think she directly contributed to death at Cielo and was part of the terrorizing of those people before they died. She made a joke of it in front of the victims families at the trial and laughed in their faces. No doubt she got what she had coming...
But she wasn't as bad-ass or hard core as she tried to portray herself at times...
Her worst enemy all those years at the parole hearings was herself. She never could get away from all the stupid things she had said over the years trying to show off for absolute losers. Her own false bravado came back to haunt her. Things like that arrest in Oregon- Stephen Kay kept bringing that up for years...
She spent a lot of effort in later years trying to convince people she wasn't a certain type of person, when it was Susan herself who worked so hard to give the impression she was that type of person in the first place. It worked. People think she was a crazy, psycho maniac. Maybe to a degree she was... But not a deadly one in of herself.
Susan Atkins gets sent alone to any of those crime scenes with a gun- my bet is that nobody had died.
But its just a hunch. Who really knows with any of those crazy bastards???
Saint, good to see you are back. I think you are correct in your description of SA, although I wouldn't of wanted to turn my back on someone like her. I think she talked a lot of shit, but....she seemed to always be around when blood was spilled. She had no problem seeing death, hearing people begging for their lives, and touching/smelling fresh blood. You have to be a mental case to witness that much horror, and not be affected by it at all. She stood right next to several people who were brutally stabbed, and even held Sharon Tate while she was stabbed. That's pretty heartless, and cold. Doris Tate told Bill Nelson in that horrendous taped interview I posted a while back how she knew deep in her heart, and was always convinced that Susan HAD stabbed Sharon. She wasn't convinced that it was Tex only. She told Bill straight up that something just told her that Susan had stabbed her. You are right, Susan's worst enemy was her mouth.
DeleteAnn: Who really knows if Red has-hard to think she truly has. It seems since California stopped inmates from being interviewed on tv long ago, her and Blue both stopped interviews too-now maybe she just isn't allowed to speak or doesn't want to-I remember reading in Taming the Beast how she said Charlie wanted to marry her-( so she could visit him?) that obviously didn't happen legally but I thought Manson said something like he married her in a dark hole ( already). Im sure we all wonder how she feels about Star and all this marriage talk. Im sure she is used to sharing Charlie with other women, but,,,,,,one cant help but think she feels left out-?
ReplyDeleteand if Charlie didn't marry Red , the one that everyone said he loved the most and was his number one girl ( and probably more in love and devoted then all of them), why is he marrying Star now?
ReplyDeleteSome of our Mansonblog friends "B" & "V" are NOW beginning to vicariously taste years of Islam slowly RISING - IE: Beheadings. BUT, as Obama bombs the Hell out of the Muslims, HE says:" It has nothing to do with a Christian vs Muslim WAR."
ReplyDeleteIsn't that like saying Charles Manson had NOTHING to with the Tate / LaBianca massacre ? So is Obama just ignorant OR is HE fucking with US - not unlike LBJ fucked with US about Vietnam.
The reason this issue is significant is: Apparently, something HAPPENED that turned Obama from a PEACE loving guy into a WAR monger - overnight. AND that is apparently what HAPPENED with the MANSON Family.
The fact that the Manson Family, 45 years ago, talked about the coming Christian / Muslim conflict, should be an eye-opener. BUT it is NOT ! WHY ?
Sun King- Further into the 80+ page file a document filed on May 29, 1969 Sadie did get her probation revoked and a no bail warrant was issued for her arrest. What is interesting about this document is that the date it was drawn up, June 6, 1969, is after the date it was filed!
ReplyDeleteSome of the later pages in the file are very curious with regard to dates.
Dear St. Circumstance
ReplyDeleteThank you for a very thoughtful insightful answer :)
St Circumstance
ReplyDeleteI looked it up in Helter Skelter Google Books pg 256 it says the arresting officer stated Atkins told him if he hadn't drawn his gun first she would have shot him.
It's strange she would tell him that and yet represented herself as stuck with these two fugitives, not having realized at first they were fugitives. One would think she'd be relieved they were arrested.
very well written, Saint.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting that for nearly half a century Susan has been seen as more in the Pat-like mode of psychotic killer than the Leslie mode of 'somewhat passive/influenced' killer. Trying to recast Susan in the latter light takes some major retooling.
But I seriously love and respect everyone's perspective - even one like Tom's "goofiness theory" that seems absurd on its face. No offense intended, Tom.
Maybe Susan was more benign than she has been cast. It's an interesting thought, though I am certain Katie for one will take issue with that theory.
Speaking of Katie and Leslie I have often wondered did they ever make their peace with Sadie in jail and get along?
ReplyDeleteCandy, I do know that Lynn Fromme was on federal parole for at least 5 years after her release, and she could not go back to California, or have contact with any of her old friends. She probably doesn't have any family in California anymore. They all moved to NY, where she is now. I know CM hadn't heard from her, because he always asks people if they've heard anything about Squeaky. He told Michael Channels that he thought she'd been kidnapped. I guess he thought she'd been taken away, so she can't get in contact with him. August 16th, 2014 was her 5 year parole date. She probably thinks about CM all the time, and reminiscences about the good times they had, before the Spahn ranch days, when it was just her, Mary Brunner & Manson, living in a little cabin in Mendocino, and having three ways. Ah, the good ol' days.....
ReplyDeleteThanks Leary! Not sure how hard I would fight to defend that opinion, because who really knows what she is capable of... but that is my hunch.
ReplyDeleteMr. H :)
again- based on what Susan wrote at the end of her life and what an Authour who LULU briefly lived with had to say:
Katie and LULU bonded and were distant to Susan for the first part of the incarceration. even when they showed unity at the trial- they were distant back in the clink. Over the years that changed to a degree- but LULU and Katie grew much closer. Susan mentioned on her last version of the truth that She and Leslie had a sort of reconciliation at some point when Leslie learned in a class they shared that Susan hadn't actually abandoned her child- when LULU had all along assumed she had- or something very similar to that...
Besides in reality after they had all had a chance to read bug book- which they all have lol
They would have known that Leslie ran her mouth as well- and she could just have easily been the one who started the chain of events which brought them down. Susan's big mouth just got them there first...
As I said - she certainly was among the loudest
:)
Here is a question more than an opinion- but along the same lines...
ReplyDeleteafter Charlie dropped Susan/Clem and Linda off the second nite..
We know what happened at the Labiancas- and we know from the first night what Tex and Katie were capable of.
But as for the second group on the second night- linda didn't go in the first night and on this night purposely picked the wrong apartment. Clem ( who never deserved the chance to prove it in my opinion) has turned out to NOT be a menace to society- not only didn't use the gun, but threw it away!! That leaves Susan who certainly didn't try to force the issue...
any chance the three of them said
" F this- I'm not killing anyone lets get rid of this gun and get the hell out of here?
???
If so- is that the real Susan Atkins when given another option?
Again- I have been no apologist for her and think she deserved to die right where she was...
But was she really in the same league as Tex and Katie?
I am not sure
Hi Ann :)
ReplyDeleteYou bring up very good points..
Hard to know for sure
Just one last point about that question regarding the second night and second group...
ReplyDeleteIf they had just simply gone to the wrong house and decided to abort mission- why throw the gun away??
Does that not make you sort of wonder if some sort of conversation took place among them about not wanting to get in trouble?
Interesting about the gun I had forgotten he threw it away.
ReplyDeleteI'm imagining a scenario where it's really late they're very tired not very motivated to do bad stuff and secretly hoping not to do any violence but it goes unspoken between the 3 of them. And maybe Charlie had said to Clem "when it's over throw the gun away" so in Clem's mind he sees it as an excuse to get rid of it. Lots of speculation. Wait weren't they the group singing Helter Skelter while hitching back? Did Charlie have the car?
Saint thanks for your answer on them making peace. That's good to know. If they eventually realized they deserved to be there you'd think her blabbing about the crimes would no longer be an issue. Maybe it was her personality in general having to be the center of attention that kept them distant from her. And maybe questioning her born again experience.
ReplyDeleteAMAZING find AGAIN Deb! Thanks for sharing.
ReplyDeleteDeb is great
ReplyDeleteI guess this means I should stop uploading the literally CRATES of information since Matt turned on me and the rest of you would rather pat something called Humphrat on the belly. Fine.
Col don't get all butt hurt. Your documents are important, too. Please keep making them available.
ReplyDeleteDeb
ReplyDeleteI am super butthurt and have been for sometime.
Max Frost will help me figure out a solution. Probably wishing this site into the cornfield.
I've never had a butthurt Col on my conscience before. Uncharted waters, for sure...
ReplyDeleteWhat the hell is going on in here?!
ReplyDeletehahaha...you guys are impossible!
ReplyDeleteCol Scott that was hilarious. What you do is very important. Primary research is to be respected and I'm sure everyone here appreciates it.
ReplyDelete