I busted out laughing when I saw your comment. Back when video stores became all the rage, my sister and I rented Cheech and Chong everything millions of times.
Thanks, ToF. I'm happy this discussion went in that direction. I never considered Bugliosi might be showing Hatami only the mugshots we've all become familiar with via our studies. I assumed it was Charlie and eleven random guys.
It depends on what you consider to be random. Bugliosi chose 12 photos that he considered to be members of the Family. He considered Shorty to be a member of the family. None of the pictures were of LE or of random mugshots. Davis was probably the only one that resembled Manson.
Even remotely. Good point. And then Hatami tells O'Neill he said the photo of Charlie was closest to what the guy looked like, right? Assuming all of this happened, Hatami really put himself into a pickle when he opened his big mouth. Maybe he did care about Sharon and was her dear friend. A Los Angeles friendship story.
This is a pretty good, representative selection of photos and if all of this played out as it seemed to in court, it's rather impressive that the dude pointed at Manson as being the most likely of this group. His testimony happened, what? A year and a halfish after this brief meeting in the front yard, that's pretty good memory on his part, I'd say.
P.S. Great follow-up post, Green. This is why you get paid the big bucks!
Years ago, when we did tape to tape for friends I used to start it off with Dave. Then put the Scorpions on or whatever, then finish it off with 'Dave's not here'. The poor sod had been knocking on the door for 90 mins!
And popular culture of the 30s-50's, a staple of T.V. reruns and 4:30 movies and Sunday morning movies and PBS "matinee at the bijou" broadcasts is completely foreign to anyone born after 1980.
Re Cheech & Chong. Not huge the UK. I hitched and Greyhounded my way around the US when I was 18/19. People played them to me. When I got back, I phoned a friend in Waltham Abbey to hear their answering machine playing "We're not home right now."
My mom Susan Chunco did business with Nancy Jo Davis. Nancy did a painting of me when I was very young. Please tell her hello. I would love it if she could sign it. Keep in touch
at the risk of boring people here, it related to "dope paranoia". I cannot convey how deeply this was in the backs of most college-type kids this was.
From Torque's recent post on Folger (this was filled with ambiance-triggered memories), this quote by Billy Rinehart:
"...everybody knows everybody else. I don’t care what anybody says, these people everybody knows everybody else. Everybody at one time or another has sold a little dope that they’ve got to a friend. Which make all of them a drug dealer in actual reality. The way the law stands it makes us all dealers.”
(BTW, Torque, this resonated with me more than almost anything else I've read here. Nothing I'd read indicated to me that Frykowski was a dealer, in the 60s sense of the word, but people sold to friends at cost, or gave it away, depending. That's what was going on with Frykowski, and likely Sebring, in my opinion. It bought you good will.
This is exactly what was on everyone's mind, if you were simply a dope-smoking college student. You knew that simple possession of a certain amount (and most people were not sure what that amount was) was a felony so everyone one had at the back of the mind that the words of a Phil Och's song might actually apply to you:
Smoking marihuana is more fun than drinking beer, But a friend of ours was captured and they gave him thirty years...
People were convinced that things like this happened in Texas, Kansas, etc. and it probably wasn't as bad in CA...but how bad was it? No one knew.
So there was this state of underlying paranoia that people often got when they were sorta unsure about something while they were smoking.
In the skit, both guys are stoned and Dave has left to buy something--more dope, maybe--and the guy in the apartment has become convinced that it's not Dave who is returning, but the narcs.
Everyone instantly related to that and it was very funny. It was a sort of shibboleth, too, because if you didn't get it, it meant you didn't smoke much dope.
Shoe - Didn't Neal Cassady do time in San Quentin for MJ? California was harsh too. I am open to correction. My source book (signed by Carolyn) is in London. I'm not there. (Dave, where are you?)
Milly: Cassady did 2 years at San Quentin for allegedly giving a joint to a couple of undercover narcs in exchange for a ride to work. The judge in sentencing him famously said "I don't care if he's innocent. I just don't like his attitude!"
The judge in sentencing him famously said "I don't care if he's innocent. I just don't like his attitude!"
That reminds me of the ref that famously sent off the Argentinian captain, Rattin, in England in the 1966 football world cup quarter final. He said words to the effect, "I sent him off for the look on his face !!"
grimtraveller said... That reminds me of the ref that famously sent off the Argentinian captain, Rattin, in England in the 1966 football world cup quarter final. He said words to the effect, "I sent him off for the look on his face !!"
Even to this day, in some soccer quarters, Rattin is reviled. After the match, the England manager said that the Argentinians had behaved like animals and since then, Rattin has been known as "The Rat." People in authority used to get away with making statements like the one the judge that jailed Neal Casady made, with little, if any, comeback. A member of the judiciary, that sentenced Mick Jagger and Keith Richards during the infamous drugs trial of '67, said something similar or words to the effect, when their sentences were quashed, of how they'd tried to make an example of the Stones and that not succeeding was not for want of effort !
grimtraveller said... A member of the judiciary, that sentenced Mick Jagger and Keith Richards during the infamous drugs trial of '67, said something similar or words to the effect, when their sentences were quashed, of how they'd tried to make an example of the Stones and that not succeeding was not for want of effort !
Though admittedly Keef did give him a pretty good tongue-lashing before that... something about not being ruled by the judge's "petty morals". A class act all round was Keef :-). The beak on the other hand was (as you accurately describe) a classic old school establishment authority figure. Those guys were never really noted for their compassion or fairness. He even instructed the jury to ignore any reasonable doubt that the defence presented. Niiiiiiiiiiiice...
Dave's not here.
ReplyDeleteLOL!
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtDAK7Umk7A
Me and my cousin listened to that record so many times, I can still recite most of the LP word for word 40 years later.
ReplyDeleteI busted out laughing when I saw your comment. Back when video stores became all the rage, my sister and I rented Cheech and Chong everything millions of times.
ReplyDeleteGreenWhite,
ReplyDeleteThere should be 12 pictures, 12-A ->12-L. BOX-10.pdf pg. 78-86
Manson / “anson”
Shorty Shea
Karate Dave (2 pics)
Paul Watkins
Juan Flynn
Bill Vance
Allen Delisle
TJ Walleman
Bruce Davis
Bobby Beausoleil
Not sure
Thanks, ToF. I'm happy this discussion went in that direction. I never considered Bugliosi might be showing Hatami only the mugshots we've all become familiar with via our studies. I assumed it was Charlie and eleven random guys.
ReplyDeleteGreenWhite said:
ReplyDeleteI assumed it was Charlie and eleven random guys.
It depends on what you consider to be random. Bugliosi chose 12 photos that he considered to be members of the Family. He considered Shorty to be a member of the family. None of the pictures were of LE or of random mugshots. Davis was probably the only one that resembled Manson.
Even remotely. Good point. And then Hatami tells O'Neill he said the photo of Charlie was closest to what the guy looked like, right? Assuming all of this happened, Hatami really put himself into a pickle when he opened his big mouth. Maybe he did care about Sharon and was her dear friend. A Los Angeles friendship story.
ReplyDeleteThis is a pretty good, representative selection of photos and if all of this played out as it seemed to in court, it's rather impressive that the dude pointed at Manson as being the most likely of this group. His testimony happened, what? A year and a halfish after this brief meeting in the front yard, that's pretty good memory on his part, I'd say.
ReplyDeleteP.S. Great follow-up post, Green. This is why you get paid the big bucks!
Thanks, I'm sprawled out on top of my gold coins and goblets etc now like a dragon.
ReplyDeleteWhen were these pics shown to Hatami? Where can I see the full set?
ReplyDeleteTabOrFresca typed:
ReplyDeleteManson / “anson”
Shorty Shea
Karate Dave (2 pics)
Paul Watkins
Juan Flynn
Bill Vance
Allen Delisle
TJ Walleman
Bruce Davis
Bobby Beausoleil
Not sure
Your "not sure" guy looks like it's Vern Plumlee
ReplyDeleteWho is it?
Dave, come on...
Who?
Dave. I have the stuff with me...
Who is it?
Dave.
Dave's not here.
Years ago, when we did tape to tape for friends I used to start it off with Dave. Then put the Scorpions on or whatever, then finish it off with 'Dave's not here'. The poor sod had been knocking on the door for 90 mins!
ReplyDeleteTabOrFresca said...
ReplyDeleteDavis was probably the only one that resembled Manson
And he of course, was out of the country at the time.
Milly, I miss mix tapes.
ReplyDeletehttps://fb.watch/bSrDZpbfUW/
ReplyDeletegrimtraveller said...
ReplyDeleteAnd he of course, was out of the country at the time.
And Karate Dave didn't even show up at Spahns until a month later.
Re the "Dave's not here" joke: is it apparent to most readers what this is all about, assuming you've listened to the album?
ReplyDeleteI would think so, but lately I'm less sure just what parts of the 60s zeitgeist register today--what people make of it.
And popular culture of the 30s-50's, a staple of T.V. reruns and 4:30 movies and Sunday morning movies and PBS "matinee at the bijou" broadcasts is completely foreign to anyone born after 1980.
ReplyDeleteMa and Pa Kettle movies on Sunday morning.
ReplyDeleteDogwood and Blondie movies. And the old Basil Rathbone Sherlock Holmes. I was always amazed at how my dad could figure out who did it.
DeleteRe Cheech & Chong. Not huge the UK. I hitched and Greyhounded my way around the US when I was 18/19. People played them to me. When I got back, I phoned a friend in Waltham Abbey to hear their answering machine playing "We're not home right now."
ReplyDeleteI could have saved a few quid on the air fare.
My mom Susan Chunco did business with Nancy Jo Davis. Nancy did a painting of me when I was very young. Please tell her hello. I would love it if she could sign it. Keep in touch
ReplyDeleteshoegazer said:
ReplyDeleteRe the "Dave's not here" joke: is it apparent to most readers what this is all about?
I didn't have a clue. And a clue didn't have me.
But I don't mind. We shouldn't go banning insider references.
ReplyDeleteI didn't have a clue. And a clue didn't have me.
ReplyDeleteat the risk of boring people here, it related to "dope paranoia". I cannot convey how deeply this was in the backs of most college-type kids this was.
From Torque's recent post on Folger (this was filled with ambiance-triggered memories), this quote by Billy Rinehart:
"...everybody knows everybody else. I don’t care what anybody says, these people everybody knows everybody else. Everybody at one time or another has sold a little dope that they’ve got to a friend. Which make all of them a drug dealer in actual reality. The way the law stands it makes us all dealers.”
(BTW, Torque, this resonated with me more than almost anything else I've read here. Nothing I'd read indicated to me that Frykowski was a dealer, in the 60s sense of the word, but people sold to friends at cost, or gave it away, depending. That's what was going on with Frykowski, and likely Sebring, in my opinion. It bought you good will.
This is exactly what was on everyone's mind, if you were simply a dope-smoking college student. You knew that simple possession of a certain amount (and most people were not sure what that amount was) was a felony so everyone one had at the back of the mind that the words of a Phil Och's song might actually apply to you:
Smoking marihuana is more fun than drinking beer,
But a friend of ours was captured and they gave him thirty years...
People were convinced that things like this happened in Texas, Kansas, etc. and it probably wasn't as bad in CA...but how bad was it? No one knew.
So there was this state of underlying paranoia that people often got when they were sorta unsure about something while they were smoking.
In the skit, both guys are stoned and Dave has left to buy something--more dope, maybe--and the guy in the apartment has become convinced that it's not Dave who is returning, but the narcs.
Everyone instantly related to that and it was very funny. It was a sort of shibboleth, too, because if you didn't get it, it meant you didn't smoke much dope.
Plus they have gary stromberg's van in the sequel movie
ReplyDeleteShoe - Didn't Neal Cassady do time in San Quentin for MJ? California was harsh too. I am open to correction. My source book (signed by Carolyn) is in London. I'm not there. (Dave, where are you?)
ReplyDeleteMilly:
ReplyDeleteUnsure about Cassady; I was scared for myself... :^)
Milly:
ReplyDeleteCassady did 2 years at San Quentin for allegedly giving a joint to a couple of undercover narcs in exchange for a ride to work. The judge in sentencing him famously said "I don't care if he's innocent. I just don't like his attitude!"
brownrice said:
ReplyDeleteThe judge in sentencing him famously said "I don't care if he's innocent. I just don't like his attitude!"
That reminds me of the ref that famously sent off the Argentinian captain, Rattin, in England in the 1966 football world cup quarter final. He said words to the effect, "I sent him off for the look on his face !!"
grimtraveller said...
ReplyDeleteThat reminds me of the ref that famously sent off the Argentinian captain, Rattin, in England in the 1966 football world cup quarter final. He said words to the effect, "I sent him off for the look on his face !!"
Classic :-)
Even to this day, in some soccer quarters, Rattin is reviled. After the match, the England manager said that the Argentinians had behaved like animals and since then, Rattin has been known as "The Rat."
ReplyDeletePeople in authority used to get away with making statements like the one the judge that jailed Neal Casady made, with little, if any, comeback. A member of the judiciary, that sentenced Mick Jagger and Keith Richards during the infamous drugs trial of '67, said something similar or words to the effect, when their sentences were quashed, of how they'd tried to make an example of the Stones and that not succeeding was not for want of effort !
grimtraveller said...
ReplyDeleteA member of the judiciary, that sentenced Mick Jagger and Keith Richards during the infamous drugs trial of '67, said something similar or words to the effect, when their sentences were quashed, of how they'd tried to make an example of the Stones and that not succeeding was not for want of effort !
Though admittedly Keef did give him a pretty good tongue-lashing before that... something about not being ruled by the judge's "petty morals". A class act all round was Keef :-). The beak on the other hand was (as you accurately describe) a classic old school establishment authority figure. Those guys were never really noted for their compassion or fairness. He even instructed the jury to ignore any reasonable doubt that the defence presented. Niiiiiiiiiiiice...