A guy named "James Dinwiddie" claims he knew Hinman, and told the story in a book he wrote(The Johari Mirror and Other Stories, c.2006) in the chapter titled "How I Met Buddha; The Untold Story of the Manson Family Murders"
He has a different version of motive for the murder of Gary Hinman:
https://bdbuddha.com/2014/01/30/how-i-met-buddha-the-untold-story-of-the-manson-family-murders/#comments
(from January 30, 2014)
Excerp:
"Gary informed me... This (Manson)gang had been extorting things – food, cars, money – from his isolated neighborhood in the name of “peace and love”. These freeloading “flower children” were especially interested in his VW minibus, and had somehow concluded that he “owed” it to them. That’s what the heated discussion was all about. ....
"Gary informed me... This (Manson)gang had been extorting things – food, cars, money – from his isolated neighborhood in the name of “peace and love”. These freeloading “flower children” were especially interested in his VW minibus, and had somehow concluded that he “owed” it to them. That’s what the heated discussion was all about. ....
"Gary waged a campaign
in the neighborhood to end the commune’s constant panhandling, going
through garbage cans, expecting handouts and outright gifts of things
like cars and clothes, and otherwise demanding that the community accept
their “everything belongs to everyone” attitude. According to Gary,
they were quite criminal in their behavior, and he was trying to get people to stop supporting them with extorted guilty gifts. ...
"Gary and his neighbor were discussing the ongoing problem of the commune at the Spahn ranch, and the neighbor let me know that Charlie’s “family” had threatened to burn Gary’s house down and destroy him as part of their apocalyptic fantasy."
Dinwiddie's account is consistent with statements by others:
Author Ed Sanders claims Hinman got an oblique death threat from Charlie just days before he was killed:
The Family, pg243
"About four days before Gary Hinman was murdered, (his friend)Eric ... visited Hinman's house at 964 Old Topanga Canyon Road. When he entered the small hillside house he found Gary Hinman on the phone, arguing with Manson. He says: "When I came into the house they were arguing. ....they were in a heated discussion... I talked to Gary afterwards to verify what Charlie said-- He said, you know, like it's your last chance, Gary. And Gary responded to that: "I'm sorry, Charlie, I'm not going to sell all my things and come and follow you.' Those were his exact words.
"And so Charlie said, in response to that, that he couldn't be responsible then for the karma that Gary was going to incur. He then reiterated that it was his last chance. And Gary said, 'I'll decide.... I'll take care of my own karma.' "
www.cielodrive.com/gary-hinman-homicide-report-08-09-69.php
Hinman employer Glen Krell: "He added that the last evening(July 25, 1969) he saw the victim he(Hinman) appeared nervous and distraught."
The Family, pg243
"About four days before Gary Hinman was murdered, (his friend)Eric ... visited Hinman's house at 964 Old Topanga Canyon Road. When he entered the small hillside house he found Gary Hinman on the phone, arguing with Manson. He says: "When I came into the house they were arguing. ....they were in a heated discussion... I talked to Gary afterwards to verify what Charlie said-- He said, you know, like it's your last chance, Gary. And Gary responded to that: "I'm sorry, Charlie, I'm not going to sell all my things and come and follow you.' Those were his exact words.
"And so Charlie said, in response to that, that he couldn't be responsible then for the karma that Gary was going to incur. He then reiterated that it was his last chance. And Gary said, 'I'll decide.... I'll take care of my own karma.' "
www.cielodrive.com/gary-hinman-homicide-report-08-09-69.php
Hinman employer Glen Krell: "He added that the last evening(July 25, 1969) he saw the victim he(Hinman) appeared nervous and distraught."
-----------------------
This alternative theory of motive also lines up with accounts that show that Charlie had already made up his mind to kill Hinman before there was talk of getting any money:
www.cielodrive.com/updates/coming-january-13th-14th-audio-archives-danny-decarlo-interviewed-by-the-los-angeles-county-sheriffs-department/
Danny DeCarlo:
"And that was the idea. Get everything he owned. ‘Cause they talked about him before, as being a Political Piggy. See, a political fuck up. “Gary’s fucked up in his head, he’s a pig, he’s gotta go. He’s just like society, part of society, so let’s get rid of him. First lets get his money.”
web.archive.org/web/20140209204015/http://truthontatelabianca.com/threads/true-detective-1970.2881/
DeCarlo said that for several days before the death of Hinman he had overheard conversation between Beausoleil and Manson in which they referred to Hinman as a "political pig who should die."
Box 49 Grand Jury Proceeding in the murder of Hinman April '70 pg138
The Family, by Ed Sanders pg243
"On Thursday, July 24, Manson sent Ella Bailey aka Ella Sinder, over to Gary Hinman's house to get the money and then to kill him. Miss Sinder had been a close friend of Hinman. Although she was a long-time Manson follower, she was not willing to snuff anybody for him."
www.cielodrive.com/People-V-Manson-Vol-33.pdf
"Miss Bailey, directing your attention to this occasion when you were at the campsite in Devil's Canyon, in the latter part of July, 1969, during that conversation--during the one in which you suggested Gary Hinman's name as somebody who might come with the Family... ...was there any conversation or any statements made during that conversation at the campsite .. in which someone said.. that Gary Hinman was to be killed?"
(Ella Jo denied it, but clearly the investigators had received info that such a conversation had occurred.)
Child of Satan, Child of God by Atkins, Susan, with Slosser, Bob (1977). Plainfield, NJ: Logos International. pp. 94–120
... Manson directly told Beausoleil, Brunner, and her to go to Hinman's and get the supposed inheritance—$21,000. She(Sadie) said Manson had told her privately, two days earlier, that, if she wanted to "do something important", she could kill Hinman and get his money.
murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/search/results?captcha_id=captcha_search&what_all=%22Juan+Flynn%22&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0&search=Search
PAUL WATKINS, My Life With Charles Manson, Chapter Eight
"Bobby ... in the summer of 1969, when he came for the last time, his welcome was worn out. He told Charlie he’d do anything for the Family; that’s when Charlie told him: “Then you know what to do with Gary Hinman.” Hinman had been an acquaintance of Charlie’s, a musician who had apparently owed Charlie money and had refused to pay it back. Two weeks later, Gary Hinman was dead."
Q: Now was there any further discussion between Manson and Beausoleil concerning Gary's politics?
A(DeCarlo): They didn't dig the trip he was on. .... That he was a political pig and his karma was bad. ...
Q: Was there any reference to whether or not he should live or die?
A(DeCarlo): Well, that he should die.
A(DeCarlo): They didn't dig the trip he was on. .... That he was a political pig and his karma was bad. ...
Q: Was there any reference to whether or not he should live or die?
A(DeCarlo): Well, that he should die.
"On Thursday, July 24, Manson sent Ella Bailey aka Ella Sinder, over to Gary Hinman's house to get the money and then to kill him. Miss Sinder had been a close friend of Hinman. Although she was a long-time Manson follower, she was not willing to snuff anybody for him."
www.cielodrive.com/People-V-Manson-Vol-33.pdf
"Miss Bailey, directing your attention to this occasion when you were at the campsite in Devil's Canyon, in the latter part of July, 1969, during that conversation--during the one in which you suggested Gary Hinman's name as somebody who might come with the Family... ...was there any conversation or any statements made during that conversation at the campsite .. in which someone said.. that Gary Hinman was to be killed?"
(Ella Jo denied it, but clearly the investigators had received info that such a conversation had occurred.)
Child of Satan, Child of God by Atkins, Susan, with Slosser, Bob (1977). Plainfield, NJ: Logos International. pp. 94–120
... Manson directly told Beausoleil, Brunner, and her to go to Hinman's and get the supposed inheritance—$21,000. She(Sadie) said Manson had told her privately, two days earlier, that, if she wanted to "do something important", she could kill Hinman and get his money.
murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/search/results?captcha_id=captcha_search&what_all=%22Juan+Flynn%22&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0&search=Search
PAUL WATKINS, My Life With Charles Manson, Chapter Eight
"Bobby ... in the summer of 1969, when he came for the last time, his welcome was worn out. He told Charlie he’d do anything for the Family; that’s when Charlie told him: “Then you know what to do with Gary Hinman.” Hinman had been an acquaintance of Charlie’s, a musician who had apparently owed Charlie money and had refused to pay it back. Two weeks later, Gary Hinman was dead."
Box 10, pg65of172
Ronnie Howard on the Hinman murder:
"She(Sadie) said they knew they had already planned to kill him so I forget Bobby held the guy's arms while I stabbed him but this was already prearranged. They already knew what they were going to do before they went in the car."
https://www.mansonblog.com/2015/03/gary-hinman-was-murdered-for-money.html
When Ella Jo Bailey was interviewed by police,
she had this to say:
she had this to say:
"Everyone talked about Hinman. It was all planned. ...:
Box 51A Mary Brunner trial court docs Sept 1971 Grand Jury Proceedings pg514
Q: Were there any other items in the (VW micro)bus with the exception of the money that had to be taken care of?
A(Ella Jo): Yes, there was. There were clothes, there was gloves and there were scarves and things the girls had been wearing. They had been told to take those along so as not to leave fingerprints around.
A(Ella Jo): Yes, there was. There were clothes, there was gloves and there were scarves and things the girls had been wearing. They had been told to take those along so as not to leave fingerprints around.
(Obviously, if Brunner is bringing gloves, that is to avoid leaving
fingerprints. And if they planned to not leave any trace of their
presence there, than that means Hinman would not be left alive to
implicate them.)
This account by Ella Jo Bailey backs up what Dinwiddie was claiming:
www.cielodrive.com/gary-hinman-homicide-report-05-18-70.php
Miss Bailey stated that she met V/Hinman in the last part of 1968 and stayed at his house. She stated that through 1969, Charles Manson would ask Susan Atkins, Mary Brunner and herself to go to the Hinman residence for money.
Miss Bailey stated that she met V/Hinman in the last part of 1968 and stayed at his house. She stated that through 1969, Charles Manson would ask Susan Atkins, Mary Brunner and herself to go to the Hinman residence for money.
Dinwiddie's 'feud/bad blood' theory is much more feasible than any 'bad mescaline' or inheritance theory, both of which describe the murder as an
impromptu, spontaneous event arising at the scene out the killers' frustrations at not getting
the money/property.
--------------
So
the motive was then revenge for what Hinman was doing.
Assuming the account is accurate, then the questions become:
--wouldn't
the cops have done a door-to-door survey of the neighbors when the
Hinman murder case was fresh, to see if they had seen or heard
something? Yes, they would have.
--and isn't
it likely they would have heard of this feud Gary had with the Family
from the Spahn Ranch, maybe even hearing about a threat to burn down the
murder victim's house? Yes, it is likely.
--and wouldn't Charlie have then immediately been rocketed to the top of the suspect list? Yes, he would have been.
--and
shouldn't the cops have quickly picked up Charlie for questioning?
Well, in any normal investigation they would have. But that of course
never happened. It wasn't bungling. It was SABOTAGE!
Beausoleil had arguments with Hinman long before the Murder.
ReplyDeleteIn the Manson-Hinman-Shea Trial, Paul Watkins acknowledges that he and Beausoleil were thrown out of Hinman’s house in December 1968. He says it was because of an argument between Beausoleil and Hinman.
Bailey saying that she met Hinman in late 1968 is contradicted by other things she said.
In the Manson-Hinman-Shea Trial,
Ella Jo Bailey implies that she met Hinman in the spring of 1968. Some of the statements she makes regarding time are puzzling.
Bailey says they, Manson and five girls, began to live in Topanga Canyon in December of 1967.
Bailey said, “We lived in three different houses in the canyon, so we stayed there over a year”. Huh?
Bailey said she met Bruce Davis and Gary Hinman while living in Topanga Canyon. Note that Sandy Good mentioned Hinman when she was arrested on 5-2-68.
Bailey says they left Topanga Canyon and moved to Spahn Ranch in the summer of 1968.
Bailey says they went to Death Valley in either late October or early November 1968 and she returned to Spahn Ranch on Christmas Eve 1968.
Thanks for posting about this, I actually came across the same piece recently and had a ton of questions, many of which you bring up toward the end. At first, I dismissed it, especially since about halfway through, the author/friend gets several major details about the Hinman murder wrong. But one thing really stuck out: if he claims to have witnessed Gary arguing with Bobby, Susan, and Mary before the murder, and even had a conversation with Gary afterward where Gary explained why they were there, then why didn’t he go to the police? He says he returned to L.A. and found out Gary had been killed well before the trials even started. This was supposedly his good friend, and if what he said really happened, it could’ve changed everything we know about the case.
ReplyDeleteThat said, after reading his account, I did start noticing little details that kind of support what he’s saying. I think both The Family and Garbage People (I think, losing track) touch on the idea that Hinman was trying to cutoff the freeloading Manson associates hanging around the neighborhood. And your post helped me connect that to some other testimonies I hadn’t looked closely at yet, thank you for that.
I asked over on Reddit (not the best platform for this...but where else??), but in Garbage People, the author claims Mary said that while Bobby was stabbing Gary, he was yelling something like, “Society doesn’t need you, piggy,” etc. I’ve never seen that quote anywhere else, have any of you?? Where? The whole portrayal of Bobby in that book feels wildly different from anything else I’ve read, so I’m wondering; do people here consider Garbage People a credible source?
Anyway, I’m definitely no expert, but this has become a recent obsession of mine after taking a 20 year hiatus from the topic. I'm most invested in everything leading up to the Hinman murder and Bobby’s role in it. I really believe if we could just get clearer on that, the rest of the story might start to make more sense. Maybe...
Thanks Star, I appreciate posts that bring in people who knew the victims and can add some depth to their story. There are obvious factual errors in Dinwiddie's account of the crimes, but that doesn't necessarily take away from his account since his value lies in his firsthand contact with Hinman.
ReplyDeleteI don’t put much into what Ella has to say. She gained a plus for her regarding her testimony…charges dropped.
ReplyDeleteAnd the last thing I may add on this topic in particular is that the white powder found on the scales should have been tested, then that would be the end all of the topic.
I do have one more thing to add that I just remembered, and Bo over at CieloDrive.com will correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe it was he who found a baggie of white powdery substance on a bookshelf at Hinman’s while observing the crime scene photo’s closely.
ReplyDelete'69 said:
ReplyDelete"...in Garbage People, the author claims Mary said that while Bobby was stabbing Gary, he was yelling something like, “Society doesn’t need you, piggy,” "
Never heard that. Thanks.
Yeah it's been puzzling me; goes along with what DeCarlo says about overhearing BB and Manson calling Hinman a political piggy in that testimony. I thought I was getting closer to accepting one plausible scenario for the Hinman murder, but this post just opened up other possibilities.
DeleteBobby also said that Gary had a bunch of communist literature are laying around.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete19696969 asks:
“so I’m wondering; do people here consider Garbage People a credible source?”
Gilmore is not a bad writer, but I would not place “Garbage People” in the top 10 (or 15) books to read.
His presentation of characters is more raw and believable. He also tells stories that are not seen elsewhere. But who some of these characters are is puzzling and it’s almost like you are reading Nostadamus.
Some of aliases he uses are simple to figure out. However, you don’t know if some of these characters are conflated from two characters or if he made up a character and used information from ten real characters and assigned it to this fictitious character. Or was he duped by sources?
Manson was free for 935 days. More than 800 of these days you cannot say: Where he was; Who he was with; What they were doing; Why they were doing what they were doing? Gilmore may be filling in some of that missing information.
If you take the character of Brockman, he has many characteristics of Arneson. He was arrested at Oxnard, and was an associate of the Family multiple times including in 1969. But Gilmore places him in DV with Manson and that is something not mentioned by others. Gilmore may have mistaken areas near Spahn Ranch and referred to it as DV or the desert . There were 9 arrested in Oxnard, with 3 being male (Manson, Arneson, Van Hall). But there were 5 others detained but not publicly listed so it could also be someone else.
Gilmore also parrots some other authors implying that the Manson Family first moved south from San Francisco in mid April 1968, but they had already been spending time in Topanga Canyon since 12/67.
Some of the information Gilmore provides (in the updated version) on Beausoleil’s younger years is unique and interesting.
Yeah for as much as Bobby was involved in, there doesn't seem to be early footage of him speaking or being interviewed, I can't even find transcripts of the second trial. Over the years he has curated his image, but in Gilmore's book we get a better glimpse of who he was at the time.
DeleteHis earliest parole hearings, he back peddled on statements he made at his second trial such as he blamed Manson for slashing Gary, then he said Manson didn’t do it, he did.
Delete19696969 said:
ReplyDeletein Garbage People, the author claims Mary said that while Bobby was stabbing Gary, he was yelling something like, “Society doesn’t need you, piggy,” etc. I’ve never seen that quote anywhere else, have any of you?? Where?
It’s a pretty ancient quote. It can be found in “Helter Skelter,” courtesy of Danny DeCarlo in his November 17th ‘69 interview with the police. As soon as I saw your question, I thought of it. When I first read the book back in ‘78, it was one of the phrases that stuck in my head.
The whole portrayal of Bobby in that book feels wildly different from anything else I’ve read, so I’m wondering; do people here consider Garbage People a credible source?
I think it’s a good book and I think it’s a fairly reliable source. When you consider much of the grunt work and interviews took place in 1969 and early ’70, it’s damn near invaluable. We learn some interesting things from it, such as that Gary was supposed to finance a recording session involving Charlie. I don’t know whether this is true or not, this is the only place I’ve ever come across that info. But…..the interviews were done very early in the day, before all the bullshit and mystique was public knowledge.
The stuff about Bobby comes from Bobby and basically undoes the way he has tried to portray himself in those days, to the various parole boards over the last few decades. If any of the members of those boards read the book, they might see the same attitude that he has held in those hearings and that wouldn’t have boded well for him, even though he got a couple of recommendations.
Here is a somewhat interesting interview with the author of the book, John Gilmour. It’s old, but it’s relevant.
I'm most invested in everything leading up to the Hinman murder and Bobby’s role in it. I really believe if we could just get clearer on that, the rest of the story might start to make more sense. Maybe…
I don’t think you’re going to get any clearer than has been managed in 56 years. But that’s just my opinion.
Gilmore seems to endorse the revenge motive. From Grim's link:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.earcandymag.com/johngilmore-2005.htm
"...back to the Manson thing… Charlie was just an extremely odd human being. I think he gradually, slowly just went nuts. His background, his past, was just so painful. My whole basic thing about Charlie - I felt that society just kicked his ass his entire life and when he got out he decided he was gonna kick some ass back."
Interesting interview. Book ordered. Haven't read any Manson books in a long time
ReplyDeletestarviego said:
ReplyDeleteGilmore seems to endorse the revenge motive
Which itself was part of the prosecution's list. As far as I can tell, there were 4 motives listed by the prosecution, 3 of them Charlie's, one of them Watson and the women's.
Mr. Humphrat said:
Interesting interview. Book ordered
One of its more interesting features is that it is one of 8 or 9 "pre-Helter Skelter" books {I include Robert Hendrickson's "Death To Pigs" and Herman Tubick's "Inside The Manson Jury" even though they didn't come out until the 21st century} that came out before that tome and therefore is in no way reliant on or critical of the book and the fanfare that surrounds it.
Haven't read any Manson books in a long time
Haven't seen a Mr Humphrat comment in a long time. It's nice to do so. You provided one of my favourite quotes on these pages. And you were always an interesting contributor.
Thanks Grim! I hope life is treating you well lately. I've mostly been lurking here and putting next to no energy into the Manson story which means I don't have much to add to discussions.
ReplyDeleteI think of you when I listen to "A History of Rock Music in 500 Songs" by Andrew Hickey and wonder if you listen to those Podcasts too :) He recently did the song "Never Learn Not to Love" over about 4 episodes. I wondered if others on this blog heard that too.
Mr. Humphrat said:
ReplyDelete"...when I listen to "A History of Rock Music in 500 Songs" by Andrew Hickey..."
That's an interesting looking website/podcast... thanks for the headsup, Humphrat :-)
You're welcome Brownrice. Hope you enjoy it.
ReplyDeleteI'm a big believer in context and that more than anything becomes the puzzle in TLB studies. Context. It's like some major player went through and obscured the context. When Bobby called every Tuesday afternoon for three years circa 2001 I told him more than once that I wasn't the parole board and he didn't need to bs me. The drug burn is viable but unlikely. It was much more likely a robbery gone bad. I had always heard/thought it was over 5000$ inheritance. This "motive theory" in summation seems to be "Gary was a pest and had to go". But I do not believe that Bobby and the girls went there to assassinate Gary which is essentially what this theory is. That would have been twenty minutes in and out not days. Even assuming the drug deal theory (which is harder with new information over the last decade)- even that was about money. Bobby et al wanted something from Gary hence the long drawn out process leading to death. Also at this point WAS the Family actually prowling Topanga garbage cans etc? Spahn Ranch was their new home, not super far but far enough.
ReplyDeleteColScott said:
ReplyDeleteI'm a big believer in context and that more than anything becomes the puzzle in TLB studies. Context.
I agree. For me, the Helter Skelter motive is all about context. I've long felt that it has often been dismissed or rubbished because many of its objectors don't keep in mind the overall picture and the context.
The drug burn is viable but unlikely
I've long felt that almost all of the "alternative theories," like the drug burn, are actually plausible/viable....until one puts them under the searchlight and picks them apart. The drug burn could have been the case. Let's face it, HS has things going against it....except that it accords with all of the known evidence. It even takes into account the bullshitters involved and all of the moves they made, both before and after the murders. The drug burn does the opposite if one examines it.
I mean, let's look at the big one. Bobby Beausoleil has killed a man, supposedly due to pressure from these mystical bikers that held a knife to his throat and said "Get us back our $1000....or else...." And what does Bobby get ? $27, a mash-up car and a Frankensteined VW-ish van {that has already been sold to and part paid for by Glenn Krell, Bobby's workmate/boss}. The bikers didn't want the van so it gets offered to Marcus Arneson...for $0. Bobby gets caught with the car {a car sooooo good that it breaks down long before he gets anywhere close to SF !! 😂} on his way to Frisco, where he could lose himself and not be found by the bikers as they had no idea where he would be, so what happened to these deathly demands for the $1000 ? It is interesting to me that we've never heard from Bobby or anyone of any note that the bikers were satiated in their demand for their money back. And that's if one even believes that 1000 mescaline tabs were ingested in a few hours. There were not 1000 members of these Californian bike gangs, were there ?
Can you see what I mean ? Even on this little level, as one digs, the scope of incredulity increases. One could go deeper and bring up the $1000 and ask what Gary did with it in such a tiny and tight space of time. $1000 in 1969 was not an easy amount to get rid of in 10 hours at the weekend, for a broke music teacher who was about to skip out to Japan.
Methinks Bobby doth chat bollocks.
This "motive theory" in summation seems to be "Gary was a pest and had to go". But I do not believe that Bobby and the girls went there to assassinate Gary which is essentially what this theory is
I totally agree with this. I don't know James Dinwiddie and I don't want to know James Dinwiddie. But one thing I do know. I know, for it has been factually documented over a 56-year period, that all kinds of individuals {like Jay Sebring's comb-carrier, or Dennis Wilson, or the Polanskis' next door neighbour, Seymour Kott, and many, many besides} have attached themselves to this case like limpet mines to the hull of an enemy ship. It's a cottage industry, to go against the prosecution ideas of this case, and big up oneself with "the real truth" of "The Manson Murders..."
James Din, take your place in the queue....😛
Ex-Prez of the Satans 86 George did not endorse the 'bad mescaline' theory:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.mansonblog.com/2020/07/charles-manson-follower-leslie-van.html
from 'Gorodish'
There is a cool Instagram blog by a guy named Bo (different guy than cielodrive) called #OutlawArchive which has a ton of posts about 1950s-60s-70s outlaw bikers, including a bunch of Straight Satans stuff. If you dig deep, a few of the older posts have some 2009 interviews in a hotel room with a 69-year-old "86 George" Knoll and his 30-something girlfriend; where George mentions Bobby's mescaline story as "pure fictional garbage"
Bo Bushnell's collection is phenomenal. I'll be looking for the 86 George interview; is this by chance part of the "Straight Satan's documentary" referenced in an older Hinman motive post? 2016? Never saw any updates on that. Also, any thoughts on the "JD" interview on More to the Story? I have never seen anything else about this JD guy.
Delete"JD" is widely derided as a fraud, after he displayed his old Straight Satan 'colors' which was not the same as the original cut the Satans wore, but something made to order in China.
ReplyDeleteYawn
ReplyDelete