How a 77-year-old Manson follower has Newsom in familiar bind
By Bob Egelko, Courts Reporter
June 3, 2025
San Francisco Chronicle
Once again, a state parole board has found one of cult
leader Charles Manson’s followers – Patricia Krenwinkel – suitable
for release after more than 56 years behind bars for her role in seven 1969
murders. And once again, Gov. Gavin Newsom must decide whether there is any
evidence that Krenwinkel, 77, would pose any danger if released – and whether a
decision to free her would affect his political future.
The Board of Parole Hearings, whose members were
appointed by the governor, voted Friday to grant parole to Krenwinkel, the
state’s longest-serving female prisoner. The board had ruled against her 14
times before recommending parole in 2022, but Newsom vetoed her release, saying
she had not shown “sufficient insight” into her crimes.
The governor gave a similar explanation in 2022 for
vetoing the parole of another Manson follower, Leslie Van Houten, whose release
had been approved five times by the parole board since 2016 but blocked each
time by Govs. Jerry Brown and Newsom.
But a state appeals court ruled in 2023 that Newsom had
failed to justify his conclusions that Van Houten, 73, lacked sufficient
understanding of her actions and could still be dangerous after 54 years in
prison. She was freed after the governor decided not to appeal the ruling.
“The only factor that can explain this veto (of Van
Houten’s parole) is political optics, and California law does not allow
governors to veto people’s parole because it will look bad,” said Hadar Aviram,
a professor at UC College of the Law San Francisco and author of the 2020 book “Yesterday’s
Monsters: The Manson Family Cases and the Illusion of Parole.”
And she said the same thinking will most likely affect
Newsom’s upcoming decision on Krenwinkel, once the parole board’s decision
becomes final in 120 days.
“What does he think people have an appetite for in this
political reality?” Aviram asked, noting California voters’ approval last
November of Proposition 36, which increased some sentences for drug crimes. “It
costs him nothing to oppose (her release). In the worst-case scenario, the
court overrules him again and she gets out.”
Newsom’s office denied a request for comment.
Manson ordered seven of his followers, including the
21-year-old Krenwinkel and two other young women, to kill nine people in three
gruesome attacks in the Benedict Canyon area of Los Angeles in July and August
1969.
During her trial, Krenwinkel admitted chasing Abigail
Folger, heiress of the Folger coffee family, and stabbing her 25 times in the
home of actress Sharon Tate, another murder victim, and then helping to kill
grocery store executive Leno Bianca and his wife, Rosemary, and using their
blood to scrawl “Death to pigs” on a wall.
Convicted of seven murders, Krenwinkel was sentenced to
death along with Manson and three others in 1971. But the sentences were
reduced to life with the possibility of parole after the California Supreme
Court overturned the state’s death penalty law in 1972.
The voters passed a new law in 1977 making capital crimes
punishable by death or life in prison without the possibility of parole, but
those sentenced under the earlier law, including Krenwinkel, remained eligible
for parole. Another ballot measure, approved by the voters in 1988, authorized
the governor to veto decisions by the parole board.
In prison, Krenwinkel has a clean disciplinary record,
earned a college degree and has taken part in community-service programs,
working to support other inmates with mental illnesses. At her 2022 parole
hearing, she said that after dropping out of school and becoming an infatuated
member of Manson’s so-called family at age 19, “I allowed myself to just start
absolutely becoming devoid of any form of morality or real ethics.”
In a statement released by Krenwinkel’s lawyers, Jane
Dorotik, a former inmate and now part of the support group California Coalition
for Women Prisoners, said, “Those of us who served time with her came to know
her as a thoughtful, gentle, and kind person – someone deeply dedicated to
creating a safe, caring environment.”
Relatives of the murder victims have not been persuaded.
“I beg the board to consider parole for Patricia
Krenwinkel only when her victims are paroled from their graves,” Anthony
Demaria, a nephew of victim Jay Sebring, testified at one of her hearings.
And Patrick Sequeira, a prosecutor in the murder cases,
told the board that if Krenwinkel “truly understood her crimes and the horrific
nature of it, she wouldn’t be here at a parole hearing. She would just accept a
punishment.”
Not so, said her lead attorney, Keith Wattley, executive
director of UnCommon Law, an Oakland-based firm that represents inmates seeking
parole.
“Pat has fully accepted responsibility for everything she
did, everything she contributed to, every twisted philosophy she embraced and
endorsed and, most importantly, every life she destroyed by her actions in
1969,” Wattley said in a statement after the board’s latest decision.
“Now it’s the Governor’s turn to show that he believes in
law and order when the law requires a person’s release despite public
outcry.”
56 comments:
Ill make a prediction on this one and a comment as well. Full disclosure- I am not 100% sure what Newsome will do about this one so please keep in mind this is just a prediction...
I think he will overturn the Board, and not fight it if they then overturn his decision. I think Pat too will walk. Hard for me to type these words, but I just feel like the momentum has shifted.
Now here are two things that I feel strongly about. None of them should ever gotten out. Least of all Clem, who was still not THAT far removed from the crimes and supposedly the least stable of the group. Yet he was more of a threat than an 80 year old LULU? I find there involvement much more similar than I do to the two of them and anyone else. The fact that a Middle aged man with potential mental disability is a safer bet than a dying Susan who couldn't hold her head up at the end, or LULU who is old withered and grey, is just a joke that made the "Political prisoner" argument at least plausible. Although I never did agree with it. I think the sheer magnitude of the crimes is enough for me to keep them locked up forever. But when you let Clem go that early and then make the "Still pose a significant threat" argument to intelligent people about a basically paralyzed woman, or a women in her late 70's- it opens up the doors for everyone to cry foul. I cant argue that at all.
More interestingly to me, Was LULU's last time around. Newsome used the "Hasn't gained fair insight into her crimes yet" card. Now here I am going to say that I don't think he or anyone can say that about Pat. Pat is the only one who I do believe did start to get it. I think today she totally gets it. Pat once told a parole board that SHE was the person she had hurt the most in all of this. Bad moment of self pity and self- realization of the fact she had wasted and cost herself her own life for all intents of purposes. Not a great way to answer. But in truth, Pat went some years without even going to her hearings, and used others simply to apologize to victims families. She sued and appealed and fought the parole decisions much less than the others, and has the best post incarceration record of them all. Pat has demonstrated to me much more than any of the others she understands what she did, and why she has paid so dearly. Besides Tex, I think she deserves to be right where she is more than any of the others. After reading and studying all I have about this case and the individual nature and behavior of the Family- Pat was one of the least likely I would have chosen if you asked me to pick which people went on those two nights before we got to that chapter and I knew who actually did. That type of violence from Pat was kind of out of character. So to me that makes her the most difficult to understand and predict. How can I say I think she would no longer be capable of harming others now, when I wasn't sure she could have done so back then? But I do believe she has gained insight to her crimes. I do believe she has sown some remorse at times, whereas I think LULU never did. LULU went from expecting to be released at some point to demanding so. Her only apologies to her victims families in latter came when she thought saying so was just a formality in getting out. I watched and/or read every parole hearing that Leslie, Susan, and Pat had up until the last few years and in my opinion there was just a different tone and message coming from Pat than the other two.
I wonder if Pat will reunite or speak with LULU if/when she does get out? I wonder if LULU talks to any of the others? Maybe they will have a reunion someday with Squeaky and Sandy out in Death Valley. Maybe Andy Cohen could get them to do it on Bravo. I know the Vanderpump Rules cast were all fans of the Manson story. In the same episode on, one season of the show, one of the main characters ( Tom Sandoval of "Scandoval" fame) debuted his new band- "Charles Mcmansion" , and then they all went to celebrate at El Coyote. Coincidence?
Maybe through George and Sandy we can coordinate the family reunion with the next Manson Blog tour. Maybe they will let me go. Sandy, Squeaky, Pat, LULU and Saint Circumstance. That would be a conversation for the ages. I'll have to bring plenty of Coors-light. They only sell Miller out in the desert if my memory serves me, and Stoner Van Houten drank most of the Coors-light I brought with me. But this time George- I'm driving....
- Your Favorite Saint
Thanks for posting Deb S. I hope you're doing OK.
St C - For what it's worth, I think you're on the money as to how things will pan out. I also find Clem very creepy indeed. But the law doesn't revolve around inklings and funny feelings. Probably for the best.
It will be reminded that Pat participated first hand in SEVEN murders. It will be reminded that Pat fled the State. It will be remembered that Pat was sentenced to death (Lulu, ultimately, was not). Pat is not going anywhere outside of Saint's very hairy fantasies
She stabbed a woman who was saying "I'm already dead". Parole: I think not.
Katie will never get out.
St. Circumstance said:
The fact that a Middle aged man with potential mental disability is a safer bet than a dying Susan who couldn't hold her head up at the end...is just a joke that made the "Political prisoner" argument at least plausible......when you let Clem go that early and then make the "Still pose a significant threat" argument to intelligent people about a basically paralyzed woman,...it opens up the doors for everyone to cry foul
You're conflating a few points here that are independent of one another, here, St.
Clem's release is not in the slightest connected with Susan's continued incarceration, other than the fact that they knew each other and murdered for Charlie.
Clem went on to admit his crime, explain lots, and then he showed the authorities where Shorty's body was. Even then, it was 8 years before he was paroled. Now, the thing is, even though he had been convicted of the murder, amid lots of rumour that Shorty was beheaded {"The Youth that beheaded Shorty Shea appeared to be a complete idiot" - according to Vince Bugliosi, in "Helter Skelter."}, the reality was that no one knew for sure that Shea was dead and there was always a fear in the back of LE's mind that one day, Shorty could conceivably walk into a cop station somewhere and say "Here I am !" This would have not only seriously embarrassed the whole of LA law enforcement, it would pour serious doubt on every one of the Family convictions. Appeals galore would be the order of the day. And probably lawsuits {civil or otherwise} from Shorty's various strands of family.
Grogan ended all of that. And finally ended any rumours of beheadings and dismemberings into 9 pieces.
Susan, on the other hand, went to her grave, never having accepted the Court's findings, which has always been mandatory in a parole hearing involving the Family. By continually saying that she never stabbed Sharon Tate, each of her parole hearings were in effect non-starters, despite all of the detail that went into them. And then saying things like Linda Kasabian went into the Cielo house when she'd previously said she hadn't {in her Grand Jury testimony, which she went back on, which then meant it could be used against her}, and it was a matter of court record that she hadn't, said, in so many words, that Susan wasn't being honest. And no way, even back in 2009, paralysed down one side and minus a leg and just about able to mutter a slurred word here and there, was California LE going to release on compassionate grounds, the woman who boasted to the world that she'd told Sharon Tate, 8½ months pregnant, that she was going to die and that she had no mercy for her and who had told Ouisch that she was the last to die because she had to watch the others die. Atkins, regardless of her condition, was always seen as depraved, in a way that Pat and Leslie never were, and if there ever was a cautionary tale of the chickens coming home to roost, it was her.
So her situation was always entirely different to that of Steve Grogan's. And both were entirely different to that of Leslie's.
ColScott said:
It will be reminded that Pat fled the State
But not while she was wanted for murder. When she fled to Mobile, she was a free citizen that was unknown at the time, other than minor arrests that never stuck in any meaningful way. And in countering the claim that she fled the state, she could just as easily and powerfully state that she waived extradition and came back voluntarily to face the music......because, foolishly, she did.
Thanks for sharing, Deb. Best wishes.
But I don't understand how Leslie was the one to get out. Katie was told to go with Tex and do what he said. Leslie heard about the carnage AND WANTED TO GO THE SECOND NIGHT. Katie has said she didn't want to do that again but didn't have a choice to make.
Grim you are exactly correct in your assessment of why Clem go out and Susan stayed in. EXACTLY. Which is the point I was going for. When you can show that Clem go out earlier than the others for reasons that have nothing to do with "Insight into the crimes", or "expressing appropriate understanding and remorse for their crimes", yet hold that up as reasons for not releasing the others- it does give some the right to argue that they are being held for political reasons ( political prisoners) Clem helping them with Shorty was not done out of remorse or insight to his crimes. He did it to walk. The government knew then what I am saying now about how the others would use this, so they did a good job of cleaning Clem up and letting everyone know how reformed and changed he was.
I also agree with Medium Patty ( That Patty?) that Leslie asking to go knowing what would happen is worse than the others going on the first night ( possibly) not 100% sure. But Pat did know the second night for sure and did go anyway, and that leads me to COL- who I also agree with. Pat had just too much involvement to compare with any of the other girls. She also did flee, and that makes it worse. She knew even back then what she did was wrong and she was one of the few to get it enough to get the hell out of there. The only person who you can compare Pat too is Tex.
Like I have always said. I wouldn't have let any of them out period. I read that California is trying to clean out the prisons these days, and it seems that Kim Kardashian sending Trump a letter is enough to get you walked in some cases. Once they let LULU go, the shock value of setting them free starts to wane a little as well. I hope I am wrong about Pat getting out. I really do.
I guess we will see...
That was Gibbie. LVH wasn't there that night.
Thanks everyone for your concern. I am still dealing with health issues, I have another surgery next month. Once I get through the next steps in my recovery I should be fine. I couldn't let this topic go without putting up a post though.
I wish you all the best Deb :)
Rehabilitation or punishment? I thought the former was important, or am I old-fashioned? And what about recidivism?
Also, healing vibes and best of outcomes, DebS! 8-)
Loegria it is an interesting question. I once myself wrote extensively about the idea of the value of a life sentence versus the value of a life? What is the purpose of prison in the first place goes right along with that I think. Do we think we can rehabilitate a drunken teenager who made one bad mistake and killed a car full of people versus a drugged out teenager who does vicious murder two nights in a row to kill the same? Do we punish them the equally or differently based on the number of victims, or the actual severity of the crime?
I have been contemplating and arguing these concepts for years only to finally realize....
I just don't know lol But if we are considering Recidivism- which without looking it up lol- I believe means the chances they will commit crime again- I still need to understand how Clem was considered less likely to go back to crime at a considerably younger age, and much les time served, was less likely than a woman such as Susan who had amputations and was unable to sit up in bed when they deemed her still a potential threat. It was utter ridiculous to me. And to say that Pat and Leslie hadn't shown enough remorse and insight after 40 years- but Clem did after half that time is also ridiculous. It just seems the goalpost has moved recently. It used to be "Not Shown enough remorse", and now it seems the bar is "Gained insight into participation of the crimes". It almost seems like they are giving in advance the reason to let Pat go based on how they changed the standard with LULU.
But again- I hope I am wrong.
than a woman such as Susan who had amputations and was unable to sit up in bed when they deemed her still a potential threat.
Perhaps they were worried about her influencing others?
And Elwood Blues considered himself a recidivist, FWW. 8-)
No mate, you're not wrong. Well, not totally ! 😅
Actually, Clem did actively show, over about 4 or 5 years of parole hearings {some of the transcripts -or part of them- are on Col's site} that he had gained a real insight into the workings of that period and his part in it. And he showed a huge dollop of remorse. Forget Susan. Because she never even got to first base in accepting the court's judgement of her, she was never going to get out, brain cancer or not. Whether Clem was thought to be less dangerous isn't really relevant. Remember, in those days, {the 70s- '85-ish}, rehabilitation was a real thing, many people believed in it and Clem wasn't truly one of the high profile murder media vampires. Steve Grogan's name didn't resonate like Charles Manson's or any of the women, even if the women's names weren't known by all and sundry. Just the name, "The Manson Women," was enough to strike the right mixture of fear and/or discomfort in many people that remembered that period.
But after a period, the Manson renunciation and rehabilitation combined with the "possibility of parole" bit of the sentence got people spinning their tops again and so this whole thing about insight into the crime became the stick with which the perps were to be beaten with, time and time again. It worked at first, especially when some of their mistakes in prison were highlighted and made to seem even worse than the crimes they'd originally committed. The daftest thing I used to note in the transcripts was always the bit where someone would say they were not there to re-try the case. It was obvious to all and sundry that that may have been the legal reality....but it wasn't the peoples' reality. The cases were retried over and over, things would come up involving matters that sometimes didn't even pertain to the perp whose hearing it was.
But that only goes so far. Jerry Brown did every thing he could to justify what could not be justified. And it wasn't even that people like myself, who weren't crying because a lifetime incarceration of a perp who had committed murder, wanted any of them out. It was the mockery of the very responsibility and justice that various people that had sworn to uphold, by those very people. And they played themselves out. The perps like Leslie would tell you way, way, more than 1000 psychoanalysts could ever dredge up and understand....and then the guv would say "She hasn't shown sufficient insight." No more insight can be shown by Leslie, Tex, Pat and Bruce. Clem showed a sufficient amount for a pretty young man, at the end of the '70s. It's really only Bobby that has continued to play fast and loose in that dept. The family members who naturally want the perps to stay inside have, in my view, rather shot themselves in the foot over the last few years and now we're at that place where all the things in the favour of family, politics and LE, have started slithering into the sea like Robert Shaw into Jaws' mouth. Life may be a continuum, but it doesn't only continue in one direction. The winds of change blow in different directions at different times. I personally was surprised that Pat even got a recommendation that first time. Especially after the previous decision. But that gave notice that maybe the wind was changing again. And then Bruce got bombed and I could see that those on the side of LE were pretty much in a mess.
Who knows where it will end for Pat. But all I know is this. Once, they were all sentenced to death. Then in a retrial, one of them got a hung jury. LE had to do some naughty fiddling to get her convicted. Then one got released. 40 years later, another got released. And now they routinely get recommendations of parole. Sometimes they get batted back, but just the fact that, whereas for 40-odd years, it was all "Denied ! Denied ! Denied !", it is now often "Recommended !", well, in that, regardless of what actually happens, I see a change.
That was aimed at you, St. 👍🏾
Grim you are a very interesting and intelligent guy. Really. Daftest and the other words you use are so cool lol. I think you are right about Bobby, and I agree with that you wrote about Pat. I too see a change although maybe we are not talking about the same one?
"Spinning their tops" another great phrase. I do not want to get off track here, but sometime I would love to hear your opinions about a guy I have recently Taken a very serious interest in . Syd Barret. I heard about Pink Floyd at some point in 1980's in High School. It was the Wall and Dark Side of Moon years. It was a little dark for me, but we played it as it was popular at time. I only recently understood Syd and his story. I am going through sort of my Manson, and Scientology years of obsession over him, and Pink Floyd recently lol. I bet you would know something about that. I would love to hear- Because I do respect your intelligence and knowledge.
But back to Pat and her potential freedom :)
Things are sounding good, Deb. Thanks for updating us.
Putting in my 2 cents on Barrett, I personally believe he's been wildly overrated and lionized far beyond his actual worth as a singer/songwriter. Yes, he wrote a tiny handful of good psychedelic classics ("See Emily Play" and "Astronomy Domine" are the best), but he purposely wrecked his brain on acid and, in the process, pretty much destroyed his songwriting ability.
I think perhaps the 'lionizsation' of Syd Barrett lies in the tragedy of what his life became rather than his musicianship per se. He really is the poster boy for "Don't do it kids."
I didn't mean to highjack the blog. Pat is worth much conversation. The parole thing always pushed my buttons... But as for Syd for one more second lol
I was never really a huge Pink Floyd guy. I got the Wall for Christmas one year, and later in life bought a DVD of the movie but only watched it once. It was just too depressing for me. I somehow only became seriously aware of Syd - other than his name- a few weeks when doing an internet search about Acid casualties. But like anything I get an interest in- I am in process of going all in lol It seems when I play Arnold Layne and See Emily Play- I hear 800 Miles High by the Byrds and Interstellar reminds of Some Dead jams. I am trying to match dates and see if one influenced the other. Growing up in the mid 70's I missed the real heyday of Acid and only took it twice myself. Mushrooms gave me a stomach ache and I threw up so I only did those once. I did know some kids who did it alot though, and some of them got a little weird and some really weird and I did know a couple of kids who get completely changed- similar to what it sounds like Syd went through. It seems that some people just have a different chemistry, and ability to handle it. But boy is the Syd story a weird one. Without the social media capabilities and camera phones we have today- alot of the information I can get is interviews with the others and stories from friends. Most of filling in the blanks is left to our imaginations and much like the Manson case, I think it makes the story more compelling.
Personally, I like the stuff they did with Syd. As I mentioned earlier, later Pink Floyd was too depressing for me. Arnold Layne and See Emily Play seem more like pop songs to me. Although Waters and Gilmour were obviously incredible guitar players and their music had its own genius, I am very curious where the direction would have went had Syd stayed. He also seemed like such an interesting personality and for him to just change that fast and the way he acted after- for the rest of his life- is just so unusual. Early on it seemed he faded away, but after some research it seems they may have just tossed him out. As much as they wrote songs about the pitfalls of greed, money, and the music " Machine" Roger Waters in one interview I watched- pretty much admitted at one point Syd was starting to affect their chances "To earn some quid" and no matter who or what the story is about- it never seems to end well for everybody when money starts to get involved...
Ahhh the late 60's. It seems England had its own characters and lifestyle going on across the pond. I read Graham Nash autobiography years ago and I forgot that London had a "summer of love" and psychedelic movements as well. I was born in 67 and by the time I got to that wonderful period of teenage life what we had going on was a much different musical direction- DISCO.
So keep that in mind when you try to understand me lol ;)
St., FWIW, are you familiar with Skip Spence, of Moby Grape/Jefferson Airplane?
St., FWIW, are you familiar with Skip Spence, of Moby Grape/Jefferson Airplane?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skip_Spence#Decline:_1970%E2%80%931999
Yes. Buffalo Springfield played with them in San Fran I believe...
Which brings us back to the Family - wasn't one of them a Springfield groupie?
Yes.
I lived in Marin County from 65-68. I went to the Filmore, the Avalon, Winterland, The Family Dog on the Great Highway, etc.
In the summer of 67 I worked door security at this place:
https://www.classicposters.com/poster/ark19670217/
It was an old, beached SF Bay ferry in Sauselito.
Hah! I was 19 at the time!!!
You're thinking of Catherine Gillies.
Some crimes you can't come back from
Is not everyone?
It was actually Rick Springfield
Hello Shoegazer. I was to too familiar with Moby Grape outside what I read about them in a Neil Young biography a few years back. Spence does remind me somewhat of Syds situation, but like his bandmate Mosely- they were both actually diagnosed with Schizophrenia. It appears Syd was never diagnosed with anything? As well, people said he seemed fine and happy at the end. I don't think he was ever homeless or unable to take care of himself. The last couple of pictures of him prior to dying - that I have been able to find - he looked somewhat normal to me....
IMO, both the Springfield and (especially) Moby Grape are orders of magnitude greater than Barrett's band, even though the latter managed to last decades longer. Shoegazer, you are one very lucky SOB to have been able to go to all those venues and see all the bands that you saw. Yes, I'm just a bit envious!
"Shoegazer, you are one very lucky SOB to have been able to go to all those venues and see all the bands that you saw. Yes, I'm just a bit envious!"
Hah! Not my intent, at all! :^)
St. sorta got me thinking, then reminiscing. This forum often has folks who are aware of this stuff so in a way I was seeking to connect...
Moby Grape I know next to nothing about. Buffalo Springfield I know a great deal more about. Pink Floyd I am just really getting into as far as the backgrounds and Bios of the members. I read all sorts of stories about Bruce Palmer and how the others guys ( Except maybe Sills) thought he was the best musician in the group and such a huge influence. But listening- I dont hear it personally. Dewey was a drunk and a slightly above average drummer. Now Stephen and Neil alone make them more relevant than the other two in my opinion if you look at the big, long-term picture. However as a band for the time they were together, Springfield cannot match the body of work Pink Floyd did. Pink Floyd, over time, had several of the best selling albums of all time. To me- Springfield is best compared to Floyd WHILE SYD WAS THERE- a couple of albums. A few truly great songs, and a huge inspiration to many who came later. But this can be simply taste?
And again, all 3 of these were way before my time and I might be prejudice to my own personal tastes. However in terms of influence and cultural awareness. I don't think I ever heard I song that I could name by Moby Grape in my life. I really only like a few songs Springfield did, and had to go searching for those when I first started getting into Neil Young. Whereas I don't like Pink Floyd and never researched them until recently, and only ever owned one of their albums, I am aware of probably 15 to 20 songs that were played quite frequently over the years in a variety of places. They made it to the public consciousness. look- I don't think Madonna was a better talent than Patty Smythe, or as Brilliant musically as Laura Nyro, but there is no doubt whose career had the Greater magnitude. If I am understanding what you mean by Magnitude?
I could be way off on this. I didn't experience of live though the first two, only Pink Floyd was on my radar, so I may have bias...
I too am jealous of Shoegazer and all of you who were around for these times. I got to go to high school during the first years of MTV, and in my opinion music started to go downhill from that point on. Heavy Metal, Grunge- thats what Rock turned into for a while in my later teen years after Disco. I never really liked much of either. To this day my Sirius Radio is preset to 60's. 70's, 80's, Classic Rock, Classic Rewind, The Dead Channel, and Bob Marley. I don't really listen to anything that came out after that. I do like my 80's music though lol- It reminds me of the mall I used to hang out at in NJ where I grew up and went to High School. They still play the same songs in that mall to this day. Although, I never really did figure out Wang Chung...
Suppose you listen to that song and you buy in. OK IM down. I'll do it. What exactly does one have to be doing to technically be "Wanging Chung"? Maybe that is one we should just leave alone?
St. Circumstance said:
I do not want to get off track here, but sometime I would love to hear your opinions about a guy I have recently Taken a very serious interest in - Syd Barret
Sometimes, a little sidetracking is good for the soul !
Ah, Syd. A very interesting character. Achieved almost all he’s remembered for by the time he reached 22. He was a huge influence on the just emerging David Bowie and Marc Bolan.
I was never really a huge Pink Floyd guy
Of the Floyd, I can say that they are the band that changed my musical headspace, when I was 16. The Beatles had done it to a lesser degree when I was 13. They opened up a whole new songworld for me, but listening to Pink Floyd’s first two albums completely launched me into a musical stratosphere unlike any I had previously experienced. It was because of them, ultimately, that I could explore jazz, the avant-garde, psychedelia, heavy metal rock, progressive rock, jazz-fusion and other genres of music like Irish folk. I later went on to love their “Meddle” album too ~ but there I stopped with the Floyd. It seems like sacrilege to many of the fans that I’m not in the slightest bit interested in “Dark Side,” “Wish you were..,” “Animals” and “The Wall.” I’ll watch documentaries on the making of those albums, but after “Meddle,” the band found a direction and stuck with it. I preferred their music when they had no direction. They were much more interesting to me.
I got the Wall for Christmas one year, and later in life bought a DVD of the movie but only watched it once. It was just too depressing for me
I remember going to see the Wall in the early winter of ‘82. My closest mate at the time had just lost a finger and thumb in a factory accident {I’d just left that factory. The machines were lethal} and they had managed to re-attach his thumb and as me and some friends were unemployed, we snuck into the cinema to see the film. It was rubbish. I really hated it. I hadn’t even wanted to see it, but it was all that was showing at the time we went. It was supposed to cheer my convalescing mate up.
It didn’t.
I somehow only became seriously aware of Syd - other than his name- a few weeks when doing an internet search about Acid casualties
The world of pop and rock had a lot of acid casualties in the early days, including Brian Wilson and Brian Jones. John Lennon came very close to being one. Jimi Hendrix, George Harrison, Pete Townshend Mick Jagger and others managed to escape but so may others didn’t. It’s significant to the blog, because the likes of Leslie, Linda, Pat, Susan, Tex, Clem, Bobby and Charlie, among others, were slap bang in the midst of that first real wave of social acid heads, and they were all people that didn’t really know anything about what they were doing to their minds. 🤯 All they knew was that they liked the experience {at least, initially}, but of course, human beings being what we are, we either go too far or the more nefarious among us recognize a tool of control. Charles Manson was neither the first, nor the only person to see in LSD a great way of control and bending one to one’s will, and this could be heightened by those that had God/Jesus delusions {ie, they thought they were Christ, or so at one with God that they were God} while tripping.
It seems when I play Arnold Layne and See Emily Play- I hear 800 Miles High by the Byrds
I think you mean “Eight Miles High.” Great song. One of the first songs of the rock era where the establishment read all kinds of drug messages into the lyric. Although the Byrds were serious acid heads, ironically, the song was about a plane ride from America to England and the subsequent English visit.
St. Circumstance said:
Interstellar reminds of Some Dead jams
When I first listened to the Floyd, “Interstellar Overdrive” was one of two pieces {the other being “A Saucerful of Secrets}that I just couldn’t get into. I really liked the first minute or so, and the final 40 seconds, but the rest of it ? Horseshit !!!!
This went on for 2 years. Then one day, I decided, as I was recording my LP onto tape, to give the whole song a whirl again. And that’s when I began to realize that I had matured in my musical tastes. Because I really listened to it with both ears, and before long, I loved the whole song. 44 years on from that moment, it’s an indispensable track for me. If any track opened up my head to the avant-garde, it was that and “Saucerful.” They also both saturated me in the concept of accessibility. By all means, be off-the-wall, but be attractively accessible too. Not an easy feat, but early Floyd managed it.
Personally, I like the stuff they did with Syd
I love the stuff they did with Syd. It was some truly inventive stuff. And actually really varied. Mind you, the last two Syd songs, “Vegetable Man” and “Scream Thy Last Scream,” are harrowing and border on almost awful, although I like both songs. At this point, his mind was seriously on its way to wherever it would reside for the rest of his life and whatever he was hearing in his head, the way they were translated into song, wasn’t capturing what had been so creative during the lead-up to the recording of “The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn,” which is a seminal album, as far as I’m concerned.
Arnold Layne and See Emily Play seem more like pop songs to me
Well, they are. They’re psychedelic pop.
When I was a kid, there was a guy that used to hang around our washing line, that we used to call “The Spyman.” A right weird guy. “Arnold Layne” reminds me of him.
“See Emily Play” is one of the great psychedelic singles of ‘67. It’s a mesmerizing track. A true great, melodically, lyrically, musically, instrumentally, vocally and structurally.
Waters and Gilmour were obviously incredible guitar players and their music had its own genius
It’s in part, because of Roger Waters, that I first took notice of the bass guitar 🎸 and started teaching myself how to play it.
David Gilmour gets a lot of flak, but I like his guitar playing in the early Floyd days, when he was trying to establish himself as a bona-fide member of the band. I’ve never thought of him as outstanding, “just” competent and inventive.
St. Circumstance said:
I am very curious where the direction would have went had Syd stayed
I remember in ‘79, looking at the line-ups for the first two albums and noticing the guitarist changed for the second album. I also noticed that while Barrett was involved in the writing of 10 of the 11 songs on the first album, he was only credited on one on the second. I didn’t know who these people were, nor anything about them, and I spent from July ‘79 till August ‘80 wondering what had happened. How could someone clearly so influential on one album suddenly not be so on the next. I didn’t know that “A Saucerful of Secrets” came immediately after “The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn,” I just assumed it did. It was when my Uncle’s girlfriend bought me the New Musical Encyclopedia of Rock in the summer of 1980 that I found out what had happened to the Pink Floyd and Syd Barrett.
There’s an interesting podcast called Fingal’s Cave or something like that, and in one of the videos, the main guy does a lengthy interview with Syd’s sister. She says that painting was really where he was at. It is worth considering that none of the Floyd set out to be musicians, let alone musicians making records. So writing songs was a pretty new endeavour for all of the writing Floyds. In that regard, it’s impossible to see where they could have gone had Syd stayed. By the second album, his songs were already being seriously challenged by what Wright and Waters were bringing to the table. The one song Syd has on the second album is masterly madness, “Jugband Blues,” one of my favourites of his and indeed, of the band. But that in itself was new. And as I said somewhere earlier, up until “Meddle” in 1971, the band didn’t really have a direction. They were a mish-mash of ideas that, in my opinion made for some tremendous songs. Even they didn’t know where they were going in the aftermath of Syd’s departure. It’s notable that “Jugband Blues” is markedly different from anything he was writing at the time of the first album and early singles, but even with that, pretty much everyone thought the band would implode without Barrett; even their managers did, which is why they left managing the band, to back Syd. That worked out well !
He also seemed like such an interesting personality and for him to just change that fast and the way he acted after- for the rest of his life- is just so unusual
I’m not so sure it is. While one can’t put everything on LSD, it shifted him significantly. In John Gilmour’s 1971 book “The Garbage People” {hugely significant because the interviews were done firsthand with Charlie and Bobby – and other Family members who go under pseudonyms and some of this was from 1969/early ‘70}, he notes that acid usage {and he also says amphetamines} altered the personalities of the members of the Family. And in truth, some people were better equipped to handle it than others. Syd Barrett clearly wasn’t built to take on its rigours.
Early on it seemed he faded away, but after some research it seems they may have just tossed him out
He had become impossible to play with, even with Gilmour brought in to cover his penchant for just standing on stage, not playing anything or strumming the same note or chord all through a song. They used to pass by his flat to pick him up for gigs and one day, they just said to each other, “Let’s not pick him up.” So they did the gig without him and realized that they could carry on quite happily. According to Dave Gilmour, Syd used to turn up at gigs, muscle his way to the front and just glare at Dave while he tried play guitar and sing.
St. Circumstance said:
As much as they wrote songs about the pitfalls of greed, money, and the music " Machine" Roger Waters in one interview I watched- pretty much admitted at one point Syd was starting to affect their chances "To earn some quid"
The members of the Floyd were all middle-class, semi-posh college boys and they had all dropped out of college in order to give this music thing a real shot. None of them wanted to go back and study, so they had to try and make their musical careers work and Syd was stopping that. They would have reached a point where no one would want to book them. They didn’t get gigs or tours on the strength of “The Piper At the Gates of Dawn,” they got them on the strength of “Arnold Layne” and “See Emily Play.” They were already incurring the ire and wrath of audiences by playing their free-form stuff when the audience wanted the hits, but with none of the hits that the audiences might recognize, and Syd just standing there either doing nothing or strumming just one chord for much of the night, something had to be done and the most viable option was also the most unthinkable – to get rid of Syd.
I forgot that London had a "summer of love" and psychedelic movements as well
Yeah. It was largely inspired by what was going on in America at first though. Without being too cynical though, I think the summer of love in both London and Haight-Ashbury is somewhat hyped. In London, the Beatles were having difficulties recording anything focused, then Paul McCartney was in all kinds of bother in the press for admitting he’d taken acid, then they went off with the Maharishi, then their manager died….members of the Rolling Stones were tried, convicted and sentenced to jail, others were busted for drugs…. And in the States, not long after the summer months, there was the mock-funeral “Death of Hippie” march in Haight-Ashbury. Charlie Manson famously claimed that due to what was going on in the Haight, he’d foreseen its demise, so, not much loving there. Part of the reason behind the “Death of Hippie” was resentment over the way the media were hyping and commercializing Hippy life and arguably, the summer of love was a media creation. And rather significantly, 1968 was a year in which much violence and revolutionary talk came forth from many of the adherents that had been preaching peace and love the year before. The Summer of Love” makes for a cute soundbite, but really, the lovey-dovey times were in ‘66 and prior to the summer of ‘67.
I did learn to ride a bike 🚴♂️ during the summer of love though. As I was riding through the park, I vaguely recall two people lying on the grass kissing. I was only 4 and was more interested in the fact I could now stay on two wheels !
SixtiesRockRules! said:
Putting in my 2 cents on Barrett, I personally believe he's been wildly overrated and lionized far beyond his actual worth as a singer/songwriter
I think there’s some truth in that. As far as I’m concerned, he was involved in about 14 Floyd songs. But every one of those songs was a marvel in one way or another. In my opinion, he was on the way to being one of the great British songwriters. I also love his voice and his guitar playing was pretty original, although he was heavily influenced by a guy called Keith Rowe, who played in an avant-garde outfit called AMM. Rowe refused to play the guitar in any conventional way, literally using it as a sound source, rather than an instrument. But he could play, and pretty dynamically too. He later was part of this jazz-rock outfit called Amalgam. I have an 8-sided LP of theirs called “Wipe Out.” 3 hours of music of such intensity that you’ll need to rest after listening to them ! But Rowe is fantastic on that album.
Yes, he wrote a tiny handful of good psychedelic classics ("See Emily Play" and "Astronomy Domine" are the best)
I suppose when all is said and done, he was only responsible as a composer of a relatively ‘tiny’ handful of good songs. But I love them dearly, they were part of that wave of music that changed my musical headspace. I can’t help but love them. If a gun were put to my kneecap and I had to choose one of his, to be stranded on a desert island with, it would be “Astronomy Domine.” Possibly the best description of a song that I’ve ever heard was of that song, in a book called “Lost in the Woods.”
Where Syd really is legendary though, at least in my opinion, is in his naming the band. They had a couple of quite good names beforehand {The Screaming Abdabs, Sigma 6} but he came up with The Pink Floyd {originally The Pink Floyd Sound}. It was a name seemingly tailor-made for the psychedelic era, but it actually came from combining the names of two old bluesmen, as far from psychedelia as one can imagine. Because Floyd didn’t start off as a psych outfit, just a bunch of White boys trying to play R&B. Their name followed in the tradition of groups like the Rolling Stones, the Hoochie Coochie Men and the Pretty Things, whose names were taken from blues songs and the Beatles, Cliff Richard and the Hollies, whose names were taken from rock’n’roll artists. They were, initially, essentially copyists that stumbled upon something new. The irony of that is that before Syd was in the band, the band’s guitarist was a guy called Bob Klose, and he was more of a jazz guitarist.
but he purposely wrecked his brain on acid and, in the process, pretty much destroyed his songwriting ability
Now, that’s a fascinating assertion and one I don’t understand. When you say he purposely wrecked his brain, do you mean he was knowingly and consciously taking acid and did so deliberately, without any real regard of what the consequences could be, or do you mean he literally set out to wreck his brain and therefore, his sanity ?
Part of his story is that people that used to hang around him were Charles Manson-esque, in that they would keep dosing him with acid without his knowledge. They were known as LSD or acid evangelists. They believed huge quantities should be poured into the watercourses of London so that its population would be permanently tripping. It’s interesting that, according to Charles Watson, this is the same kind of thing that Charlie believed and wanted.
Milly James said:
I think perhaps the 'lionizsation' of Syd Barrett lies in the tragedy of what his life became rather than his musicianship per se. He really is the poster boy for "Don't do it kids."
I think this is undoubtedly the case. Although people don’t do it with Skip Spence, Roky Erikson, Steve Took, Brian Jones and others whose minds crumbled under the weight of their acid use.
Syd is just one of those artists that, for whatever reason {probably a combination of things}, people latched onto and identified with. His solo work {if you can call it that} is unremarkable. In fact, it’s a wonder anyone was able to get 2 solo albums out of him.
Yet, despite what happened to him, it didn’t really stop the onslaught of teenagers tripping out on acid in the UK.
I have to say, the lionization of Syd Barrett really irritates me at times, because the Pink Floyd were a band. Although Rick Wright and Roger waters didn’t write as much as Syd early on, they did write. From the moment I heard them, I loved “See-Saw,” “Remember a Day” {Wright}, “Take Up Thy Stethoscope and Walk,” “Let There Be More Light” and “Corporal Clegg” {Waters} and they were as good as anything Syd came up with and by the time the band got around to their second album, they were writing some great stuff. Not only that, even in Barrett’s compositions, it wasn’t him and a backing group. Like most groups, all of the individual members contributed their parts. Their producer at the time of the first couple of LPs, Norman Smith, has said that you’d rarely get the same performance twice from Syd, which indicates that he wasn’t the sole director of his songs and that Wright, Waters and Mason had to be pretty creative in how they came up with their parts. Not only that, on quite a few of the Syd-penned songs {actually, you can hear it on other Floyd songs too, like “Set the Controls For the Heart of the Sun”}, you can hear the editing by Smith, the classic example being the part in “Matilda Mother” {a glorious song}, at the point where the band come out of the organ solo. An old mate used to have a bootleg in which the full version of the song was played and maybe it’s because by then, I’d been listening to the released version for 30+ years, but I thought this unedited version was lame. So, a lot more went into Syd’s songs than his “genius” songwritng skills and vision. Songs that we have on record {or CD or whatever} are nearly always a team effort. In the same way I get annoyed when architects get the credit for great buildings, but none of the bricklayers, builders, plumbers or electricians do, yet they are as important to the overall result. Besides which, after Syd bombed out of the scene, the Floyd went on to become a band so successful, that many people have never heard of Syd Barrett or if they have, aren’t at all appreciative of much of their pre-Dark Side music. And that would be because the rest of the band proved over and over that they could come up with the goods.
Thanks bucpaul.
I knew you would have some great takes on this Grim. Thanks!
I too was thinking yesterday about any similarities in the Acid changing a person they way it did to Syd and any of the Manson people. In my first comment I mentioned that Pat would not have been one of the people I would have guessed would murder based on her background versus the others. Squeaky and Susan and Leslie were already acting out and sort of kooky prior to Charlie. Pat was teaching Sunday School and almost became a nun. Prior to TLB she was the one who watched the kids and took care of babies. She seemed to have been the one most changed/affected but Acid, or Charlie or whatever ( Maybe along with Mary). When I read about Syd suddenly have "Lost Eyes", or with a "Stare that goes right through you", It reminds me of the opening of the Hendrickson Documentary when Sandy, Nancy, and Squeakster are staring into the camera with the rifles. Its sound like the stare they are describing from Syd....
Is it possible that they included Jugband on second album simply for the lines that say something like "Making it clear, that I'm not here" meaning maybe literally and figuratively? Also as early as Emily he includes lyrics about "loose your mind" Syd seemed to understand a little bit of what was happening if you listen to his words. As well- I read too he would sit at shows and stare at David. Doesn't that show he had some awareness- if he was demonstrating anger or jealousy?
Really interesting stuff to me. Some people did acid as an exercise and some did it as a way of living. Some could take a few trips and compartmentalize the rest of their lives and responsibilities. Others went al in and made it their lives. Sort of like the Family. Some could go by and party and then understand when it was time to leave, and others went in and dedicated their beings to it. and in either case, the ones who went to far became lost. Fortunately for LULU and Pat- prison may have spared them the end some of the other had. They may get to finish their Trip the same was Syd did. Clear headed and home on a safe warm couch.
Final question I ponder. This might seem easy at first. Freedom versus locked up. No brainer right?
But Lulu and Pat have had the opportunity to change and grow. They got educations and did a great deal to help and educate others. They got their minds back, and now will live out there lives in relative comfort ( from what I am told) Would you chose that over the lives some of the others lived freely? Brooks at the end, based on the last info I could find info on was homeless and living in bushes in San Diego. Linda's life has been a complete mess and she too is usually homeless. It is impossible to guess what their lives would have been like had they gotten out in mid 70's like they thought they would. But as of that time - not one of them had renounced Charlie, so odds are pretty good that most of them would have went right back to others and give me one good example of how that turned out for any of the hard- core members? ( I don't count Paul as a hard core member. He used them for his own good times and got out when it got ugly) It seems Clem is the best case scenario and he too spent some time clearing out the head first. The rest of the continued to get in and out of trouble or worse.
The only one who I think got a raw deal was Susan's family. I could care less if Susan got out, but she was unable to move at the end. Could barely lift her head up in her final hearing. It would have been decent to her loved ones to let her go home so they could have her for her last few days. They never hurt anyone, and she couldn't possibly have either. Those killed were not the only victims of TLB. There were plenty of other people whose lives were destroyed on both sides. Too many parents lost their kids at the hands of our favorite little monsters. That's the true legacy of Charles Manson- as delivered through Tex, Pat and the others. At least it always will be to me...
@grim.......I don't think Syd realized, as he started ingesting copious amounts of LSD (and probably other hallucinogenic drugs as well), what the long-term effects on his writing and performing abilities were going to be. Perhaps if he HAD known, he would have either sharply reduced his intake of said substances or (very unlikely, I know) stopped taking them altogether. In those days, nobody really knew what the long-term effects of regular acid use were. I suppose it's one of those questions that can never really be answered with any finality. However, I stand by my comment that his drug use had a direct and negative effect on his talents & abilities. I do think that, had he pulled back on his drug use (though perhaps the damage had already been done by mid-1967 and it was too late by then), he would have been able to continue as leader of the band and might well have written even better pieces than "Astronomy" or "Emily", but of course this sort of speculation is quite academic at this point.
When I say it seems that the momentum is swinging Pats way- I should add why. I addition to LULU getting out there was also the Menendez brothers resentencing. As well I recently read about a bill that is working to release even more people:
"California Democrats just opened the prison gates for over 1,600 cold-blooded killers," Senate Minority Leader Brian W. Jones, a Republican, shared in a statement with Fox News Digital. Jones was speaking about SB 672, also known as the Youth Rehabilitation and Opportunity Act, which is a California bill that would allow individuals sentenced to life without parole for crimes committed before the age of 26 to request a parole hearing after serving at least 25 years. The state Senate passed SB 672 Tuesday by a 24-11 vote. The proposal now heads to the Assembly.
So to me it just seems that across the board- they are starting to lighten up. But I do hope I am wrong...
Saint, check out Brown V. Plata
Thanks- I just did. First thing I thought was this has been going on for longer than just last couple of years... Thanks again
FWIW, I really enjoyed the back-and-forth about the various major musical influences from your earlier times.
Music has gotten *weird* for me: at my age, it is almost too powerful. You know, it seems to be a kind of non-verbal communication that bypasses the rational, and also almost all personal protective filters. I was never more than an interested dilettante--no formal knowledge, just know what I like.
Here's the odd part: I gradually needed to back off into almost exclusively late-40s/mid 70s instrumental jazz. Somehow it *helps* me, although I don't know how or why. There is an order, and a great deal of spontaneous creativity, seems like.
Anyway, I enjoyed and learned. Thanks for the exchanges!
I think we all learn a little whenever Grim gets going on some topics... Jazz is a subject I also know nothing about. But I bet it is relaxing...
Thank you as well :)
Julian's upcoming auction (June 20) has a collection of about 20 stills and photos of Sharon & Roman.
https://www.juliensauctions.com/en/items/1607391/sharon-tate-and-roman-polanski-1967-1968-photographs
Somehow I've got into Dave Brubeck...
You kidding me? That awful woman isn't going anywhere, except back to her concrete, malodorous "house!"
Arnold Layne was written by Syd Barrett about a well known knicker thief. David Bowie was a big fan of Syd Barrets Pink Floyd and covered See Emily Play on an early album. There's a great version of Bowie, Gilmour and Wright performing Arnold Layne in the Albert Hall on you tube.. 🎶Distorted view, see through, baby blue 🎶🤣
Hallelujah to that one Ann - I’m glad someone on here has good old fashioned values when it comes to crime and punishment. And particularly to the heinous crimes committed by these animals. The usual excuses trotted out for Krenwinkel - oh it was all Charlie’s fault, oh it was because of the acid, oh she’s learned and changed now. Laughable if it wasn’t so sad. Here’s hoping Krenwinkel stays right where she is and justice for the victims is fully served. And trying to somehow put the killers families on an equal footing as the actual victims in these crimes is as absurd as it is sick.
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