Bill Nelson and Doris Tate interview Ed Sanders

 This is an interview I've never seen. It's not the best quality visually but the sound is good all the way through. The interview is raw, unedited footage. While there no date on the interview there is mention that it had been 20 years since the TLB murders.

Bill Nelson conducts roughly the first hour, then Doris Tate takes over for about 15 minutes, the last couple of minutes are of Nelson preening before the camera.

Ed Sanders seems a little exasperated with Nelson at times. Nelson's questions mainly revolve around other murders the Family may have committed. Of course Nelson wanted to slip in questions about whether or not Sanders had entertained the idea that anyone in the Family could have been the Zodiac Killer. Sanders largely dismissed any such notions. 

Sanders did offer up one murder where the Family was investigated that also had a Zodiac Killer component. When the murder was first brought up Sanders couldn't remember the victim's name though much later in the interview he did finally come up with a name. He qualified the accusation by saying that another man, Stanley Dean Baker, was believed to have committed the murder. 

The victim was Robert Salem who was found dead April 19, 1970 in San Francisco. It was a very brutal murder. Salem had been stabbed, he had a missing ear, and his heart cut out. On the wall of his apartment the words Satan Saves and Zodiac had been written in the victim's blood along with what was possibly supposed to be an Ankh symbol. It was the writing in blood on the wall that drew the attention of Los Angeles detectives that had investigated the TLB murders.

In all likelihood it was Stanley Dean Baker who committed the murder though he was never charged. 

Here are some articles about the murder that Baker was convicted of committing. The first is an anniversary article which has all of the basic information about the murder of James Schlosser in Montana and how it came to be that Baker was arrested in California for that murder. The second is an article written at the time of the trial for Baker's accomplice in the Schlosser murder. It includes questions asked of Baker, while he was in the witness stand, about the Robert Salem murder.

The other murder that Sanders said was investigated as a possible Manson murder was that of a black drug dealer named Super Spade, true name William Edward Thomas. Super Spade's body was found in a sleeping bag that had been tossed down a cliff near the Pt. Reyes Lighthouse in Marin County on August 6, 1967. He had been shot and relieved of a hefty amount of cash. I feel like it was far too soon after Manson was released from prison in March 1967 to have been committed by him. The crazy had not begun to set in, yet. The murder is still unsolved.

The remainder of the possible murders that Sanders spoke about have all been discussed at one time or another here at the blog.

The Manson Family Archives YouTube channel is hosted by James Dawson. He has many Family related videos.

Bill Nelson Part Two - Sexy Sadie What Have You Done?

Susan Atkins with her parents and brothers mid-1950's

We will never see another Manson researcher like Bill Nelson. His run was the greatest of all and his destruction was magnificent. Scraps of Nelson's work remains online today via the Wayback Machine. Grab what you like before it's gone. Nelson is fading from Manson history. 

 

Now is the only time that's real.

If you are new or newish and think you'll find the key to fame and fortune hidden within the fetid mountains of malarkey hundreds of curious people have already dug through, wear gloves that reach the elbows, believe only what you can verify, and view Mr. Nelson as a cautionary tale. 

Horny, self-righteous, and connected to EVERYONE at one time or another, Nelson died in 2005. In the late 90's, Bill might've thought Sadie would hang on the line for a few years while he giggled and snickered his way through sex rumors of the past. 

No, sir. Sadie's husband stepped in and said, "I challenge you to a duel at dawn. Pistols." 

More like hey leave my wife alone. But a duel would be sweet. 

I wonder how Nelson's wife felt about the nightgown Bill sent Sadie? Was she "thrilled?" Mrs. Nelson did not know her husband craved iron bars and black and white photos of teenage slippies until it was too late. And plus she aged. Nelson liked chicken nuggets way more than hens.   

Sadie ghosted him and he published his breakup letter online. I'm back in good graces with my wife now and enriched from selling my rantings and lies to Aes-Nihil and the Colonel yakety yack. 

-------------

Dear Susan Atkins,

I have left the case behind me, no longer interested in the Manson saga of murder, deceptions, deceit, and demonology. My web site was taken down on January 23, 2000. I sold off my vast library. After 11 years, I have reclaimed my life and my wife is thrilled. Sandra Good with her live-in loony St. George (named after the street that intersects at the LaBianca house?) pulled out all the stops to destroy me, defame me, and ruin my reputation.

You and I spent some nine plus hours together. We shared, laughed, and you cried. We called one another "Brother" and "Sister" in a bond of love and respect. I sent you several letters after your husband James decided that we should not see each other. They went unanswered. I understand.

I have sold several copies of your 12-28-00-parole hearing. It was such a disgrace! There were so many lies told by James regarding you. I was saddened to hear him even quote the deceased Patti Tate that you have progressed very well inside prison – but he neglected to add: "And right here is where she should spend the rest of her life!" He said none of the murders were done in an execution style. That is a lie. You should have heard the response of Dianne Lake (a really mature Christian in adult life) upon hearing that one. He bragged that you were never an alcoholic, but your records tell a different story. So did your book. He cited the "family" you had been living with as a proof of stability at the time of the crimes. Did you see the reaction of Stephen Kay at that one? Bragging that you had a stable family relationship i.e. the Manson Family? How insulting indeed. You killed because you were under such stress? Really now. Barbara Hoyt, who knew you well, says you were an evangelist for Manson in the same way that you are now for Jesus. It would take hours to cover all of the deception. You never missed much time from work assignments but then you were on medical disability for many months before the hearing. And…the most egregious action was your turning your back on Janet Parent when she identified herself. To think that James and you worked hard to keep her from voicing her opinion because you did not "actually kill Steven Parent" was quite unchristian. I could go on and on about that dreadful performance at your hearing by a tag team that would make the World Wide Wrestling Federation take lessons.

Remember your telling me the "new rendition" of the crimes? How Tex kicked you out of the Tate house in an argument and you were outside of the house when HE stabbed Sharon to death? Where was that rendition during your last hearing? It was not told because it simply was not true.

I am offended at your use of God while you continue to lie. How refreshing it would be to hear just one of you killers actually tell the truth. Not Bruce Davis, Charles Watson, Leslie, Pat, or you have ever told the full truth. You get three meals a day, medical treatment, dental, psyche, exercise, marriage, and you have done quite well by all of that. When you miss those warm and cuddly conjugal visits with James, think of Doris Tate and me. November 1, 1996 was the change in policy by the CDC. Thank God! It should never have been allowed for people who kill.

Your hearing was so uninteresting that Court TV did not even broadcast it. All of the money they invested, and they chose to take a pass. You see Susan, James was simply a boring, miserable failure. You want to know a little secret? That over weight Commissioner was the same person who voted to give Bruce M. Davis a release last year. That is right. Bruce got a yes vote, and the other two commissioners said that this year, they might agree. Manny left the BPT to become a police chief once again, so he will not be able to spring Bruce free. But! Bruce will walk very soon and he MAY start the killing again. He was involved in the Zodiac murders and I will take that evidence, my findings, and 11 years of research to my grave. When you admitted that you helped to cover up any blood evidence where Shorty was murdered, you gave us something that no one had put together before. You were personally involved with EVERY MURDER prosecuted. Gary Hinman, Tate/LaBianca and Shorty. Wow Susan! That is a really heavy thought. When you took Bugliosi to the back of the ranch by the stream, it was because that is where Shorty was killed. You know what Clem, Bruce, and Manson say? "We were driving down Santa Susanna Pass in the middle of the day when Shorty was hit over the head and they drug him from the car…" Barbara Hoyt submitted a letter refuting that alteration of the court record but the BPT buried her letter in the confidential section of the C-File for Davis. They did not even allow it read into evidence. So much for Perjury prosecutions in the Manson family, because the BPT does not care about TRUTH. These over paid, no nothing bureaucrats do not have a clue and none of you will tell them the truth, not even in the Name of Jesus.

Good bye my friend. I enjoyed our meetings. I never betrayed you following our visits, despite the lying tongue of Linda Mann and that other crazy lady who comes out to tape the hearings. I wish you Christian conviction – the conviction to finally speak up and tell the truth. And Susan, what was that about you being the only one to make restitution to any of the victim’s families financially? Please provide the proof for that one, because it just is not so. You gave nothing financially to Doris, I would be surprised if you gave any to Patti since she would have called it blood money and after all she turned down $50,000 from Guns and Roses. I know you gave nothing to the LaBianca family. It is for certain that you gave nothing to Janet Parent. Shorty has no relatives, and Gary Hinman’s mom and dad have passed away.

As I go - - - - Gypsy let me know in 1993 that she and you had been swimming at the Tate house before the murders, driving up there in the sports car of Dennis Wilson. Bugliosi asked Terry Melcher to confirm it or deny it….Terry told Mr. B. that it was true. I guess you forgot that interesting tidbit when we met for 9 plus hours and in subsequent letters.

Please do not continue to name Jesus as your redeemer when you refuse to tell the truth. You may be Born Again, it is not for me to judge, but you defame the name of Jesus by your misrepresentations. And no, I have no interest in hearing from little James. You traded in Manson for another control freak. The people who have seen the parole hearing tape have observed that. A little, condescending man like Charlie, hurtful, crude and so uninformed.

Sincerely,

Bill Nelson

04-24-01

be but my sworn love 

and I'll no longer be a Capulet Manson investigator.

-------------

Imagine being a convicted sex offender, the charges involved minors, and making it your mission to remove conjugal visits for prisoners. Bill Nelson's mind was a dark place. +ggw

Bill Nelson Part One

Bill Nelson might be the most interesting of the Manson researchers who went crazy on the quest. He is tagged fifteen times in posts along the right column of this blog. While researching Tex Watson last week, I fell into Nelson's twenty-nine page pdf manuscript. A madcap binge of all things Nelson followed. I hoped to create a sort of Cliff's Notes for noobs and maybe a quick reference guide for everyone else. 

There's too much tomfoolery for a single post. 

A one-dimensional slash across Nelson's one-dimensional face - nasty as he became - isn't fair. Bill Nelson was a complicated man. I went searching for a starting point, failed, and asked secret agent Deb for help. Within an hour, I was falling down the rabbit hole. 

Nelson's cumulative stats senior year of high school. No GPA. I'm unsure how someone plays on the football team and marches with the Color Guard but maybe that's why the numbers are included. Just one year of track. No hurdles records. 

I hope the Nelson's weren't related. Thanksgiving Dinner might be rough. "Didya hear NASA made Joe a supervisor?" 

"Pish-posh. Bill sent Sadie Mae Glutz a nightie."

Nelson entered the Navy after high school and served during Vietnam. 

He married a pretty gal in a beautiful dress.

Nelson doxxed. I won't return serve but he's gotta pay something. You can't follow little kids around and expect compassion.

A friend sent me a Manson saga version of the Stages of Grief. Stage One is Jailbait Orgy Obsession. Did Nelson never move beyond Stage One? 

Hindsight is 20/20 but this interview with Snake Lake is heavy on the cringe regardless. Slime oozes from his words. Nelson asks about her sex nickname at age fifteen. You will find a baby GreenWhite comment below the post from back when I thought I could solve things. Shudder. 

You think you know people? 

Nelson knew people. He was in with the prosecution, the victims' families, the incarcerated, and the Family. He worked with Court TV filming parole hearing. And sold Manson stuff on his website. We will never see his like again. 

Going after Sandy was a mistake. Nelson grew comfortable terrorizing inmates and moved into the private sector. Before long, a little bird whispered into Stimson's ear and Nelson was finished. Sex charges involving minors. Oh, Bill. 

Do we separate the art from the artist? His research for the 25th anniversary update of Helter Skelter was solid. Nelson brought a lot to the study but will time remember him? Will his name come up when they're arguing race war in seventy-five years? 

Tracking back through Internet history, I struggled to find Nelson supporters. 

Nelson never attempted to cozy up with Family men. The ladies were his special concern. Jumping from new friend to new friend on his climb to the top, the researcher chewed them up and spit them out. When someone from the Family answered one of his syrupy letters, Nelson sold copies of the reply.  

He stole the show at LVH's parole hearing. Lulu ran back to her room while Nelson yucked it up in his goofy Hawaiian shirt. That video remains on Bret's YouTube page if you remember Bret. Last year, a decade after his death, Bret's page began sharing scammy, unrelated content. They get no links. 

Without question, Nelson craved dune buggy time machine sex with the Spahn's girls. How a square like him ever imagined he stood a chance is baffling. Listen to that convo with Lake. Yikes!

But Nelson's biggest boner was reserved for Mr. Watson. Maybe to play Bugs to Tex's Manson and rake in that cold cash. Brothers-in-arms selling paperbacks until the end of time. Except no Gentry on Team Nelson. Another mistake. Nelson wrote like a middle schooler.  

Or maybe he thought Tex was the star of the production? 

Jealousy over finding himself excluded from prison parking lot sex with Watson's wife in a wood-paneled trailer also crossed my mind. But maybe a few years before Kristin Joan Svege became Mrs. Tex Watson. Nellie liked them green. 

Kristin and her parents steamed into New York from Norway the last day of August 1961. She was two years old or almost two. Kristin and her mother are US citizens. 

The future Mrs. Tex attended Asbury Park High School. Below is her yearbook photo from 1974. The Boss was ten years older and attended Catholics schools. Miami Steve was born in Massachusetts but grew up in Middletown, New Jersey. Bruce came to see him play in '65 and the rest is history. 

Tex and Kristin's wedding announcement in the Sacramento Bee. The Secret Service agent behind Nixon looks like Watson. Baseball player Rod Carew poses with the former US President.

After a week spent reading, watching online, and bothering people about Bill Nelson's obsession with Tex Watson, I walked away shaking my head. Dude lost his mind trying to be chief Manson expert and former young love confidant. A sigh of relief went up from every Manson circle when Nelson exited this mortal coil in 2005.

If we don't discuss Nelson's Tex book in the comments, I'll write about it next week. 

-------------

Bonus Material:

What happened in your brain, Bill? 

I'm interested in learning more about Mr. Nelson if you're willing to share. +ggw

Raw Footage of Geraldo Supposedly at Spahn and with Bill Nelson at LaBianca's

The beginning of this footage has Geraldo riding horses and speaking with a woman named Kim Buchele.  It's presented as if they are at Spahn Ranch but Buchele lived at 23000 Santa Susana Pass Road and she never owned any of Spahn Ranch.

Thanks to Manson Mythos, who comments here, for putting this up on YouTube!

Bill Nelson Taunts Sandra Good In The Barker Ranch Log Book

Hello my friends!

Sandra Good will screw up once too often and qualify for California's 3 Strikes Law. Then it will be good-bye "Blue" stay alone George.

Myers Ranch is burned out -- Where were you George & Sandra Good?

Spahn Ranch burned the last day of Barbara Hoyt's trial testimony, now Myers!

Bill Nelson

Author

www.mansonmurders.com

P. O. Box 1585

Costa Mesa, CA 92628

OK Blue -- Guts enough to keep this statement in this book?

6-30-99 Bill Nelson

Email from Ruth Ann Moorehouse to Bill Nelson?

Back in the day this was posted on Bill Nelson's 

(now defunct) website "mansonmurders.com".

 ---------------------------

Bill—

I have just been to your website and read the page about me.  I wanted to write and express my feelings on this matter.  I would also like for you to publish this letter on your website as a sort of "my story" type of thing.  I realize it is your website and you are free to publish whatever you want.  I also would like to thank you for not releasing any information that you have about me.

---------------------------

I have been living a quiet life for the past 30 years.  I have been blessed well beyond what I have deserved.  I have a great husband who I adore, a job I love, and sons who are my whole being.  But there have been many tragedies along the way.  I am not trying to make anyone feel sorry for me, I am merely trying to "set the stage" for what has become of my life.

I received my first email from Bill back in July.  I admit that it hit me out of the blue.  I had seen his website and had also seen him interviewed on television.  I didn't know what to expect.  I hadn't talked about those years of my life for a long, long time.  Indeed, my own children don't know my history.  I have been up front with them about the drug use and basically told them I lived in a "commune". They have no idea I was with Manson.

I tried to explain to Bill my reluctance to "speak out" because it had been so long.  I have been living quietly with this for almost thirty years.  Old habits are hard to break.  For a moment put yourself in my shoes.  Have you ever tried to explain to a plastic surgeon why you have an ‘X' on your forehead in the first place? I have had all these feelings bottled up tight for many years.  I have been to professional counseling for years.  I can't talk to my friends about it.  Real friends will understand?  Wrong!  I know from firsthand experience that is not the case.  I have tried "opening up" before and have had people (special people) walk out of my life because of it.  Welcome to my life.

I told Bill this story.  I live in a VERY small town. One cold night, I couldn't sleep.  I flipped on the TV and there happened to be a Sharon Tate movie (DON'T MAKE WAVES) showing.  I cried the rest of the night.  I think about it all the time.  Not a day goes by when I don't think back wishing the whole thing was some awful dream.  But it wasn't a dream.  I know that.  I can't change it, although I would if I could.

Barbara Hoyt.  I think about her and wish that there was something I could do to ease her pain.  What I did was despicable.  I am ashamed.  But again, I can't take back something I did 30 years ago. The reason I never apologized to Barbara through email to Bill is quite simple.  I can't fully express my feelings in words.  I feel it is something that needs to be done face to face.  At this time however, Bill has told me that Barbara doesn't want some type of overly emotional reunion to be blasted all over the talk shows. I feel the same way.  Like I said, I think about Barbara on a daily basis.  What happened with her has kept me up nights for 30 years thinking about what could have been a very tragic outcome.  I am truly sorry.

After reading Bill's website update about me, I felt compelled to give my side of the story.  Bill has been getting a bad rap on the message boards and I probably shouldn't have "popped off" the way I did.  As far as I know, he hasn't spilled any information about me. Basically, everything happened too fast for me.  Much too fast. I wanted to set the record straight and give insight into my decision to do what I did.

---------------------------

OK Bill.  What do you think?  Can you publish that letter in full?  I picked up the ball in my court and have passed it to you.

Ruth

Bill Nelson disrespects Mrs. Tate

This video is old, I know, but it is informative, if not extremely uncomfortable to watch. Bill Nelson, as you all know was a Tate/LaBianca researcher/stalker/extreme creep. How he was able to get the wonderful Mrs. Tate to answer some of his ridiculous questions is beyond me. This man should of been ashamed of himself asking her such things, and going into detail after detail about her daughter's horrible murder. It was so unnecessary, and I do believe he was doing it on purpose to try to make her start crying on film. This man, while alive needed a few dozen lashes with a bullwhip, preferably administered by Col. Tate! This interview was broken up in sections, and the embed feature is disabled, so I made links. Sorry about the inconvenience. The first part of the interview starts at 6:54.

First part:

Second part

Third part

Fourth part

Fifth part

Sixth part

Seventh part

Sexy Sadie gets probed by Bill Nelson

While cruising around the Internet superhighway, I came across a letter from Susan Atkins to Bill Nelson from 1992 where she had answered some questions that Bill had previously asked her in a letter. For those of you who do not know who the late Bill Nelson was, well, he was an author, and self-claimed researcher on EVERYTHING having to do with the Tate/LaBianca murders, etc., although in my opinion, he was more like a stalker than anything else. Anyway, I do apologize for not giving you the full letter. Frankly, it is too long & dragged out with her quotations from the Bible, and ramblings. As everyone recalls, Susan Atkins was a born-again Christian, and every other sentence in her correspondence had something to do with religion. Of course, to each their own in that aspect. I would never judge someone for their beliefs/disbeliefs. This letter is interesting in so many ways, but especially in the Bruce Davis kind of way. Hasn't Bruce Davis told the parole board over & over again that after he participated in Shorty Shea's murder, he was really disturbed, and went off to be by himself for a day or two? Well, according to the Sexy one, that isn't exactly what happened. He failed to mention that he was not only part of the execution squad, but also had a job as part of the clean up crew. This is the first time I have heard about this. I do remember reading that his finger prints were found on Shorty's foot locker, or something to that effect, but didn't know about the other parts. Of course, we all know it is hearsay now, but it still makes for an interesting read. Here is where the letter starts pertaining to her answers to the questions he had asked her in a previous letter:

I’m going to attempt to answer your questions, however, Bill, I really want you to hear me every time you probe me for answers that you think I may have tucked away in my brain from the past, it is VERY painful for me to go back to those awful times. Then I think, well, perhaps I may remember something that may help solve a murder, and isn’t it worth the pain to see if perhaps I may know something that could help someone so, per your request, I’ve probed and come up with the following:

1. I have no idea of who DeGrimstone is, however, there was a man that Charlie had met at Spahn’s ranch, and out at Golar Wash, and he was a Christian Scientist(I think she meant Scientologist). Bruce Davis was a friend of his, and I think they knew each other from England, but I do not know his last name, and I think that his first name might have been John, but that is a guess. I also remember that Charlie did not like him very much, and also, that Paul Watkins and he got along VERY WELL.

2. I have no memory of a teaching about water at every killing, whatsoever, but I do remember he instructed the guys, I don’t know which ones, that it was important to put tanks or big barrels of water out in the desert at strategic places so they would always have water to drink.

3. He never mentioned those who were murdered being his slaves in the afterlife, in my presence. Your questions is the first reference I’ve ever heard of such a thing.

4. I do not recall ever entering the Process Church in S.F., in fact the first I ever heard of such a church was when I was reading Ultimate Evil by Maurey Terry.

5. I know nothing about a primered Chevy Corvette.

6. Yes, I remember a Studabake, but it was my fathers when I was growing up, sorry, I do not recall any such car at Spahn’s, I don’t think I was cognizant enough to determine a make or model of any car or truck.

7. I never heard, as God is my witness, Doreen Gaul’s name before until I read it in your letter, and I really didn’t know that Bruce Davis had a girlfriend.

8. Charlie told me that Shorty Shea had been killed, when he told me and Gypsy and Clem and Mary Brunner and Bruce to go to the site of where he was killed and buried, or the general vicinity of his burial, and look for blood on the ground, or the leaves, and to clean up any evidence. That is how I know where to take the D.A. to try to find Shorty’s body. I was told that it was Steve Grogan, Tex, Bruce, and Charlie who killed Shorty. I think it was Steve who told me, and that he had cut off his head.

9. I do not remember saying any such thing about Steve Grogan, however, it sure isn’t out of the realm of possibilities that someone said it, and I got tagged with it. And it is, by the way, really annoying to have so many people out there in the world perceive me as some sex crazed person, really annoying!!!!

10. I do not know who the Jane Doe is, although it looks remarkably like Linda Kasabian, as I remember her.

11. I’ve never read, or am I at all interested in H/S, and thus have absolutely no idea who Marina Habe on page 642, and 646 is.

12. I had no idea that Bruce Davis was ever anywhere until I met him, I think, in Topanga canyon before he went to England, I think he went to England for a while. He disappeared while I was pregnant with my son, and came back around the time my son was born.

13. Do I know anything about Zodiac? Are you asking me if I know anything about the Zodiac, or a person named Zodiac? I seem to recall that while I was in jail for the murders, there was some mention of some person named Zodiac, but I don’t know anything about him/her.

Bill, all of the above is/was very hard for me. If I knew that I knew anything to help, I’d have volunteered information years ago, but I just don’t know anything, and the persistence in questions is extremely hard for me. Please thing about that the next time you get the urge to send me “old” photos, that perhaps would be better for me if I never were to see them. Paul wrote that “behold old things are passed away, behold all things are new.” I’m a new creature in Christ and I really do not like being put in the position by my “friends” to remember the past, the old things, the painful things. My beloved James, who loves me, NEVER even mentions my past to me.

I’m not sure why you felt it necessary to send me “never before seen” pictures of Sharon Tate, but, please, please do not do that to me again. Part of me wonders if you want to induce a reaction out of me, by sending me the pictures that you send me. See, it is YOU who are researching my past, and in so doing, you uncover things that God has already HEALED in my heart, buried and put in the SEA of forgetfulness, and then along comes my precious brother in Christ, wanting to show me what he’s uncovered and it’s like what has been healed is opened up again and it hurts, Bill, I don’t know how else to explain it. I deal with remorse every day I’m alive, don’t you realize that the pictures you send bring the reason why I’m in prison right back into my heart and mind and soul, and I grieve all over again? Is there no end, not even in the Kingdom of God? Am I to never be allowed to let the past rest?

The rest of the letter, and many more can be found at a wonderful site called "Truth on Tate/LaBianca" forum.This forum is two-thumbs up, in my opinion! Here is the link:
Susan Atkins letters to Bill Nelson

Thoughts on the LaBiancas and the motive on August 10th

NOTE: THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A CHARACTER ASSASSINATION OF ROSEMARY LABIANCA OR ANY OF THE VICTIMS OF THIS TRAGEDY. BUT, LIKE ANY GOOD DETECTIVE, WE NEED TO BUILD A CASE TO GET TO THE BAD GUYS. THE NOTATIONS HERE ABOUT ROSEMARY ARE MERELY PRESENTED AS A MEANS TO THE END … AND HOPEFULLY, THE TRUTH.

DISCLAIMER: WE WILL DELETE ANY COMMENTS THAT ARE NOT SENSIBLY AND SENSITIVELY PRESENTED.

As we think about everyone we've ever known (relatives, friends, and work) do we know a single average American family who had any one of the following incidents happen in their lives? Yet, they all happened to the LaBianca family:

A son who was arrested for Grand Theft - the only crime he was caught for? Probably.

A daughter who was arrested for credit card fraud (again, probably more but the only thing she was caught at), terrorized her mother, and later her step-father's family to the point that after a phone call from her after the murders, they fled their family home and never returned - confirmed by Alice, Cory, and Anthony LaBianca.

A future son-in-law who was in a dangerous motorcycle club, Satan Slaves, dealt drugs, & had a lengthy rap sheet.

A father who was friends with the mafia, skimming money from his own company, gambled heavily, and had numerous dummy corps to hide his funds and tax shelters.

A mother who led a double life.

A family home that was burglarized on numerous occasions before and leading up to … murder.



Rosemary's Double Life:

From numerous close friends and ex-husbands, Rosemary was gay or at the very least, a bi-sexual who seemingly married the men in her life for capital gain (see the second Labianca homicide report).

From her first husband, Henry Martin, we know that while she was with him, she was also having an affair with Charles LaBerge. She becomes pregnant by LaBerge, but moves in with the wealthier Martin until Suzan is born.

While Martin is away on business in Alaska, Rosemary takes off with all of their possessions, their 2 cars, and a valuable coin collection - Martin doesn't file charges because he still loves her. Two years later (and probably broke) she contacts Martin and asks forgiveness. They move in together for the next year - but the whole time they're together she's having an affair with Reba Gage and Charles LaBerge - both of whom she continues having affairs with while married to Frank Struthers - AND, while still living with Martin, she starts having her affair with Struthers (see the second Labianca homicide report).

Rosemary jilts Martin at the last minute and moves in with Struthers and later marries him while still having an affair with Gage.

Then comes Leno who, at the time of their meeting was relatively wealthy and stood to inherit a great deal when his mother passed away.

While married to Leno, Rosemary is still sleeping with Frank Struthers and Reba Gage. After the murders, Frank Sr. tells police that Frank Jr will becoming into a large inheritance from his mother. Later, Frank Sr. accuses Suzan LaBerge of ripping off Frank Jr in his inheritance.

It is alleged that at the time Suzan had emptied out the house and, before the police could get to it, a safe at Gateway Markets and then threatened any of Leno's family members that got in her way. Some members of her family believe that Suzan had a hand in the murders.

While married to Leno, Rosemary seems to try a lot of get rich quick routes. She gets her real estate license, her insurance license, opens a dress shop, and eventually begins getting into real estate, stocks, and securities.

People assume that Leno's financial troubles were due to gambling. Others believe that Rosemary bled him dry by spending lavishly, buying a house that was beyond their means (Working Way) and eventually having him invest in real estate, stocks, and securities and forming dummy corps to hide their funds and avoid taxes (see the second Labianca homicide report).

While Leno's getting poorer, Rosemary may be getting richer and hiding the money from Leno in secret accounts.

To avoid financial ruin, Leno sells the house on Working Way at a large profit and buys the family home on Waverly. With that money he continues to make bad real estate investments - Myca Corp and a Riverside Parcel investment scam. And, begins skimming off money from Gateway.

Leno misappropriated $200,000 from Gateway. They had a combined debt of $30,000 "their properties were extensively mortgaged".

In the mean time, Rosemary is moving out of her truck boutique and into a real store front - and possibly opened at least 2 others and co-owned (good friend) Lucy Larsen's Pet Shop.

During her interview with the police, Lucy tells them that she is friends with another lesbian (Charlene Abernathy AKA Charlie) that Rosemary was probably having an affair with her while married to Leno (see the second Labianca homicide report).

Larsen tells the police that Rosemary was in the real estate and insurance business and played the stock market and had an exclusive interest in commodities.

And, finally, Larsen tells the police that she and Rosemary had long talks about her problems with Suzan and that Rosemary feels threatened by Suzan. Then, Rosemary tells Larsen that "someone has been coming into our house … things have been gone through and the dogs are inside the house when they should be outside and vice versa."

There were reported burglaries of the LaBianca home beginning in 1968. Larsen thinks that one of Rosemary's children were behind them. Rosemary says no.

December 1968 Leno pays off $15,000 of his $200,000 to Gateway and in June 1969 he pays another $30,000 (equivalent to $187,500 in today's standards.)

Yet on June 24, 1969 Leno takes out a $15,000 loan from Hollywood National Bank.

From Peter Desantis (Leno's brother-in-law and partner in Gateway Markets): For all his debt, Leno was about to buy a ranch in Vista, CA for $127,000 - equivalent to about $794,000 in 2012 - and go into the investment business.

Sometime between June & August of 1969, Leno tells his mother that he wants to leave the company and go into the stock business.

Suzan LaBerge moves in and becomes engaged to Joe Dorgan - known felon, drug dealer and a member of the Satan Slaves Motorcycle Club.

April 9, 1969 Letter from Leno to his daughter Cory: "No new burglaries to report here. No new clues either. There's been a plain clothes detective hanging around here occasionally, but I'm beginning to doubt as to whether the "culprits" will ever be caught … I would sure like to get a ranch of our own soon. LA is getting to be a pretty scary place. There are a group of hippies that have taken over Griffith Park and two pot parties have been broken up by the police just next door. That's a little too close for comfort. I have a place priced out in Escondido." - Did he put quotes around culprits because he believed LaBerge was behind them?

Bugliosi says that the LaBianca house on Waverly was vacant at the time Harold True was living next door, but there's possibly a misrepresentation here - the house was probably not vacant, it was still the family home and completely furnished with Leno's family items. It was often visited by Leno and possibly inhabited without consent by Suzan and Joe Dorgan. They possibly got to know the peeps next door (Harold True & friends).

May 21, 1969 Letter from Rosemary to Cory: "We haven't had any more robberies, but every time I come home I expect to either find someone in the house or something missing. I think the police have stopped working on the case and we haven't heard anything from the insurance company.

Conversation between Leno and Peter DeSantis - date unknown but it had to have been in late July or August since this was when Leno was forced to sell his shares of Gateway - "I've got to get out of this town and can't unless I can sell my shares. It's a matter of life and death. I'm asking for my life." Desantis later called him and said they would make arrangements as a "birthday present" (August 6th).

Conversation between Leno and his mother Corrine: "We can't live in that house any longer. We can't sleep and never know when it will be ransacked again. You're the only one who can help me."

Phone call from Cory LaBianca to Leno August 9, 1969 Cory wants to come to Waverly to give Leno his birthday present - Leno tells her: "I don't want any of you to come up to this house. Sue and Frankie are at Lake Isabella and we have to go bring the boat back. We probably won't get back until Sunday."

The above are just the recorded conversations about robberies, ransacking, and safety. Could there be a lot more going on - and an obvious ongoing fear?

Then we find neighbor and bookie, Edward Pierce, AKA Phantom was suspected of being involved in a $600,000 stock swindle. He disappeared from his residence, 2743 Waverly on August 18, 1969. During the IRS investigation into Pierce (he was $100,000 in tax arrears) they found in his residence a collection of foreign coins and off-set minted coins. What are the odds of finding two people on the same street with an extensive (and expensive) coin collection, eh???

Another interesting note in the neighborhood: Leonard Posella and Sharon Ransom: Posella's mother lived "next door" to the LaBianca's. Posella's wife, said that on several occasions Posella visited Leno. Each time he came back with money or liquor and said, "It's okay. I know them and they better give it to me or else." (see the second Labianca homicide report). Posella hooks up with Sharon Ransom. Ransom and her former boyfriend Zorba are Satan Slaves.


Suzan LaBerge

Bill Nelson (God help us all) supposedly found proof that Watson and LaBerge lived less than 200' apart in apartments on Greenwood - much as we hate the guy, this is likely to be accurate.

A brief look at Watson: Before moving to Cali, Watson works for Braniff Air as a baggage handler. He leaves for Cali with over $4,000 in his pocket and a new car. Granted that could have been a lifetime savings, but that's equal to $25,000 by today's standards and considering he worked in his parents' store, how is this unachievable in the small town of Copeville, Texas. Did he started trafficking drugs while at Braniff and got an offer for bigger and better in Cali???

He arrives in Cali and immediately starts dealing drugs from his wig shop and rents a house in Malibu - not an easy thing to achieve so quickly for a small town Texas boy. He does well for a long time, but starts using, becomes sloppy, and begins burning people in his drug deals.

At some point, did he hook up with Suzan LaBerge - whether it was Greenwood, Waverly, Topanga, Laural Canyon, or Spahn's and the Satan Slaves?

Tex's apt. at 2024 Darcena Dr.
Suzan's apt was across the street (this side) from the white structure.
They are about 200' apart.

Did Rosemary spend her entire life scamming? Did it rub off on Suzan??? Did LaBerge, Dorgan, Watson and eventually Manson start scheming to get at her mother's perceived hidden wealth - what exactly this is, who knows, an off shore bank account, stocks, securities, cash, maybe even drugs? And, so, do they start going to the house while Leno, Rosemary, and Frank are not there, looking (unsuccessfully) for … something?

It's interesting that whoever is ransacking the house knows exactly when it will be un-occupied.

Leno's first wife, Alice, initially told police that she thought the murders had to do with stocks and commodities. She also told them that someone had again broken into the house the weekend before the murders while Leno and Rosemary took Frank, Suzan and the boat to Lake Isabella. Another failed attempt?

They can't find what they're looking for on their own, so are they left with no choice but to go there while Rosemary and Leno are home and confront them?

August 9th, Rosemary and Leno go back to the Lake to pick up Frank and Suzan. It is alleged that Frank later says that Suzan talked him into staying and having a little more fun. IF she is involved (and we don't know that) she did this for one of two reasons-- A: she didn't know her mother would be killed and Frank had seen Watson so he could later identify him, or B: she knew they'd kill them and saved her brother's life.

No one, including Lucy Larsen, expects the LaBiancas to be home before 2AM - Rosemary guestimated between 2 and 4 AM.

That night, Manson et al, drive around aimlessly for hours supposedly looking for a house to hit. At approximately 1-1:30AM (same time LaBerge is dropped off by her parents), Manson goes into Pasadena and stops at a house. He tells the others in the car to circle the block while he scouts the house. Did Manson stop to make phone contact with LaBerge or Dorgan to see if her parents were home yet?

Manson comes back to the car stating they're not doing that house because he saw pictures of children. From there he suddenly has a specific destination and gives driving directions to Waverly Drive.

The killers arrive at Waverly within an hour of the time that the LaBianca's arrive home - they had time to pick up a paper, park the boat, change into their PJs, and begin reading the paper.

Manson and Watson go in first, tie up the LaBianca's at gunpoint, tell them they won't be hurt if they give up A B or C. They give it up, Manson leaves and sends up Van Houten and Krenwinkel to complete the perceived (by at least the women) Helter Skelter plan.

Unlike the night before, Watson seems very content to take his time in the house - they desecrate Leno, take time to take a tapestry from the wall to write in blood, shower, ransack the closets, change clothes and eat - as if he knows that no one else will be coming to the house.

8:30PM The next night, Frank Jr. is dropped off at home. He suspects something is wrong, goes to the phone booth and first calls his parents house and when no one answers, he calls Suzan's work and eventually connects with her at her apartment that's five minutes away. TWO HOURS LATER, LaBerge and Dorgan arrive at Waverly.

Shortly after the murders, Suzan is accused by LaBianca family members of arriving at Waverly with a truck or cargo van and emptying out the contents of the house - Cory LaBianca says that she didn't get so much as a photograph of her father.

Suzan refuses to testify at the trial.



Cut to 1989/90.

In her book Restless Souls, and in this article Alisa Statman alludes to a plot between Tex Watson and Suzan LaBerge. But lets take a look at what seems clearly obvious to us.

Out of over five hundred cities in California, Suzan LaBerge just so happens to end up in the small town of Carpentaria, CA, where Patti Tate and her 3 children reside. Out of a class of over 130 children, LaBerge's daughter, Rommi just so happens to befriend Patti's daughter.

And, it just so happens, that LaBerge is now friends with Watson who is due for parole that year and will once again come up against Doris Tate and her victim impact statement and one of the strongest reasons for his continued incarceration.

And, so begins what could be an elaborate, unbelievable plot. Is it possible that Watson either blackmailed or paid LaBerge to pull off a sure-fire plan to get him a parole date - befriend him as a born-again-Christian, keep Doris Tate (and her powerful impact statements) away from his parole hearing while another victim (LaBerge) makes a statement for his release?

Was that the plan - for LaBerge to gain the trust of both Patti and her daughter and that either the day of or the day before Watson's hearing, Patti's daughter would go missing - about the only thing that would keep Doris from attending that hearing? In Doris' absence LaBerge would give the parole board such a moving speech for his release that they would grant him a date.

Is it possible Suzan and Tex thought they were going to make a fortune with their story once he was released with shows like Dateline and 20/20 in a bidding war for an interview?

Is it possible that what they didn't count on was the fact that Doris would have an informant at CMC tattling on Watson and giving away his plan? Or, that the whole thing would backfire and blow up in their face by…

...Bill Nelson. He latched onto the LaBerge/Watson friendship like a Terrier and supposedly exposed LaBerge's dark side. He uncovered court documents showing her as an abusive mother. He got her ex-husband, Wok, to admit that he was scared of her, scared for his children that were in her custody, and he confirmed that she was a Satanist not a Christian. Then Nelson went on to expose Watson and his wife's Medi-Cal fraud and found proof that both, (good Christians that they were) were not only ripping off the government, ripping off donators to his ALMS, but both were having numerous affairs.

So much for the loving born-agains' story of forgiveness and healing?

All of this proves nothing. What it does show is an almost unbelievable set of circumstances and coincidences that lead to 2 people being brutally murdered in their home.

The reporter who initially said that Rosemary left a $2 Million estate? Could it be that he got the information from someone who was close to Rosemary who believed that to be her net worth? Was it embellished from $200,000 to $2,000,000? Possibly. But even at $200,000 (1.25 mil in todays standards) that's a bucket load of money for 2 people who were so far in debt.

You've seen the probate papers, the LaBianca's had no liquid cash and no investments on the books and yet Rosemary, by all accounts, was flourishing. Could even be that Rosemary bragged to friends (and Suzan) that she had more money or investments than she actually did? Something's not right. Something is hidden AND, they were murdered. Was it by someone close to them for a reason other than a black and white race war???

Suzan LaBerge had a spotless record - not even a traffic violation or parking ticket. Is she rich? No, but she has managed to support herself and her children for more than 40 years without a career in above average income neighborhoods. She has changed her name on numerous occasions and seldom uses a verifiable address.

Suzan Struthers
Susan Struthers
Susan Rae
Suzan LaBerge
Suzanne Rae-LaBerge
Susan Berg
Susan Wok

All just idle speculation...

Alisa Statman on CNN.com

**Thank you, Alisa, for your express permission to use this great photo of you and Patti.**

The enduring fascination of the Sharon Tate murder
By Mike Ayers, Special to CNN

April 11, 2012 -- Updated 0152 GMT (0952 HKT)-- "The day that I was moving in, there was a supposed producer [on the property]," said Statman, now an assistant director on "Modern Family." "He was taking footage of some of the exterior. I just told him not to film me."

Statman said she received a letter from that producer, Bill Nelson. Nelson said he was working on a film about the Manson murders and the Tate family, that he had the blessing of Sharon Tate's mother, Doris Tate, and asked if Statman would be interested in helping. "Being in the business and being 21 years old, I was like 'Heck yes, I'd love to do this.' "

From there, Statman said her life was radically altered.

Read the whole piece, here: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/10/showbiz/celebrity-news-gossip/sharon-tate-murder-pop-culture/?hpt=hp_c3

Patty'll show you hers if you'll show her yours!

All this talk in the Heidi Ley article about there being 160 books on Manson "and most of them bad" got Patty to thinking. What's in Patty's collection? See for yourself. Apparently she only has about 8% of the available titles:

Taming the Beast, Edward George with Dary Matera: Charlie's old prison counselor tells tales of Charlie's life behind bars up until the early 1990s.
The Family, Ed Sanders: A classic but disliked by purists because the author puts quite the spin on the facts. Patty digs it, though.
Charles Manson Now, Marlin Marynick: A psychiatric nurse from Canada who developed a long distance personal relationship with Charlie in the late 2000's tells all.
Squeaky: The Life and Times of Lynette Alice Fromme, Jess Bravin: THE SQUEAKY BIBLE until she releases her own damn book. JESS IS PATTY'S IDOL. Can anyone get her his email address? Please?
Manson In His Own Words, Nuel Emmons: A great read but also disliked by purists because Emmons edits Charlie's words for "improved coherence."
Trial By Your Peers, by one of the original TLB jurors: Grump sent this one to Patty. It's rare, it's interesting, but IT'S BAD. Grump warned Patty and he was right. Still worth a book report though, so watch for it. Thank you, Grumpy Poo.
Child of Satan, Child of God, Susan Atkins: Great details about her early days in San Francisco.
Will You Die for Me?, Charles Watson: More great details about his time in the desert before fleeing to Texas.
My Life with Charles Manson, ("Little") Paul Watkins: An engrossing read: someone (Patty forgets who) has the kindle version and it's also on line at The Colonel's pad.
Witness to Evil, George Bishop: An early cheap paperback about the trial. Patty has not read it yet but the illustrations are hilarious and definitely worth their own post. Watch for that too.
Manson, John Gilmour: Patty can't remember what she likes about this one, but it was pretty good.
Manson: Behind the Scenes, Bill Nelson: Hilarious! Some good material with some laughably awful fiction intertwined. Patty loves her some Bill Nelson. Except for that child molesting business, of course.
Desert Shadows, Bob Murphy: The Patty's constant companion on their semiannual explorations of Death Valley National Park. Patty is told it's expensive on line, but rumor has it you can get one pretty cheap in Death Valley itself.

Patty also read Mr. Hendrickson's latest, but it is now in the posession of The Evil One. Given her current paltry collection, what should she buy next? She needs some Gorightly and Schreck: these are obviously missing. What else?

In Search of TJ

T.J's Marine Photo

Patty likes to take note of places that are mentioned in the Manson mythology so that she can later go back and photograph them for posterity. One piece of information she found very interesting was an email supposedly written by TJ's sister in law "Cyn" to the administrator of a popular HTLBS site that you are all familiar with.
In the email Cyn wrote about TJ's funeral arrangements that half of his ashes were spread in the desert and "the other half of Tom's ashes were brought to Tom's family in Reno, NV where we had a second memorial ceremony for him. His ashes are interred in the Veteran's Memorial Cemetary in Fernley, NV. He is interred next to my husband John, his mother Marie and his father, John Sr." Patty was in Fernley recently and took the lead photo of the cemetery but could not find his headstone. Being the big chicken that she is, Patty got Liz to call the cemetery's administrator. We have TJ's date of birth, date of death, rank, active duty dates and serial number. They say he is not buried there. So either he is not buried there, or they do not release info about celebrities and/or supposed "FBI informants."

Cyn also wrote: "Tom and Lori did marry and had 3 children: Aslan, Light and Rivers...Tom has two other children by his first wife, Rainbow or Bo as we called her. They had two daughters: Yana Mani and Domani." Eviliz.com has confirmed that two of these names are spelled incorrectly and Cyn has left out mention of a sixth child alltogether. What's up with that?

You may also remember that some time ago, The Pattys spent the good part of an entire day and $100 in gas driving up and down the 395 looking for the crash site with a grainy photo from Bill Nelson's book in hand. There are some good landmarks in these photos: in one, a house with a fence and a telephone pole amidst a clump of trees on one side of the road. In the other, a distinctive, long, sloping butte in the distance on the other side. In Taming the Beast p. 142, it says that the fatal curve in the road was in Kern County. Never could find a spot that even remotely resembled the photos even though we doubled back to get both perspectives.
Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm."