Tragical History Tour, I have no doubt that Abigail and Sharon were close. However, a detailed account of their friendship is absent from the contemporary literature. Moreover, I've seen perhaps only one photo of Sharon and Abigail together. Its a pity more photos are not circulating of them together.
Thanks for the reminder about Leno. Last I heard about Steve Parent's father, he was 95 and living in a nursing home in Texas. For the birthdate recollection videos I make, I like to focus on birthdates on the 10-year mark--hence Sharon and Abigail's 80th each this year.
Artist friend to Abigail and Voytek, Witold-K, turned 90 in May of 2022. Hes 91 now and looking good in my opinion.
I'm often amazed at the wide array of musical offerings in the late 60's
I feel the opposite. From the early 20s right up until the late 50s, different musical genres had been appearing, sometimes fusing and mutating. Then from about 1963, that process accelerated at a quite dazzling rate and there were many evolutions, fusions and experiments. The world got smaller and people got more easily bored with what they were having to stick with and both musicians and consumers were in the mood to break out and try new things.
I have no doubt that Abigail and Sharon were close. However, a detailed account of their friendship is absent from the contemporary literature
It's only the opinion of one person, but according to Sheilah Wells, "I remember an evening in July, about three weeks before the murder. I was with Sharon in the bedroom watching television. In the sitting room on the sofa lay Gibby and Frykowski. Sharon pointed at the both and said sighing: 'These people ... I do not understand this, they are always stoned.'"
From when I read Ed sanders book on Sharon {it's pretty lame}, I kind of got the impression that Sharon and Abigail weren't particularly close as time went by although by default, they were initially. Abigail was in Cielo because she was with Wojiciech {whom, it appears, she was about to break up with} and Wojiciech was in the house because of Roman, who was described as a "sort of Polish YMCA in America." Greg King described Wojiciech as having made a career of following Roman around the globe..... But like most things in this saga, there are multiple views.
WRT to the idea that Tate and Folger were "close", this seems less likely than not.
From what I've read, just in general, both seemed to be decent human beings living in a very synthetic world. To my mind, this is commendable.
But Tate was a remarkably beautiful woman and an actress who was about to be a mother. Folger was rather plain, and was likely a product of enlightened education, not particularly involved in entertainment, and seemingly substituting social awareness for direct motherhood, at least at that stage of her life.
Their connection was that Tate had married a director of Polish nationality, and he had a friend/hanger-on who for all the world seemed to be living the life of a kept man. Polanski more than likely proposed his friend, Frykowsi, and his patroness/lover, as house-sitters, and that was the extent of it, so far as I know.
Shoe, I admit the relationship between Sharon and Abigail remains a mystery to me. To my knowledge, there is nothing in the available literature that describes the depth of this relationship. Indeed, Sharon, in all of her interviews does not mention either Abigail or Voytek--at least not to my knowledge.
Artist Witold-K, friend to Abigail and Voytek, volunteers several things about this couple, but nothing about their relationship to Sharon. Roman Polanski himself, in his autobiography, offers up precious little about Abigail, and nothing about her relationship to Sharon.
At least at this point, I would find it difficult to accept that Sharon and Abigail's relationship was terse or strained. If it were, I for one would think this would have been brought out in the literature.
Billy Doyle, when interviewed by LAPD in Toronto, said Sharon and Abigail were both "nice girls." Doyle said Abigail loved Voytek very much, "and that was obvious". But alas, Doyle offered nothing in the way of the more intricate substance of Abigail and Sharon's relationship.
We should remember that it was novelist Jerzy Kosinski who introduced Abigail to Voytek in New York. No doubt it was Voytek who introduced Abigail to Sharon and Roman later, ostensibly in Los Angeles.
Yet Doyle, when directly asked by police, if Abigail was "keeping" Voytek, remarked she was not, but that Roman was taking care of Voytek financially, and that Voytek had intimated this to Doyle.
At present, not much to go on about the relationship between Sharon and Abigail.
At least at this point, I would find it difficult to accept that Sharon and Abigail's relationship was terse or strained.
There's "close" and there's "strained", and there's the in-between: acquaintanceship but little more, simply because of the lack of shared interests and backgrounds. That's how I see their relationship.
Here's how I see each of them:
Sharon Tate was a remarkably beautiful woman who seemed to have a degree of humility about her good fortune. I've never yet read anything of her, or anything she has purported to have said, that I can construe as negative. I *do* however, get the idea that as a sort of traditionalist female of the era, she was attracted to, and deferred to decisive males. She was very role bound, in my opinion.
She seemed to treat all other women with equanimity and good will, it seems; no flaunting that I've heard of. She was therefore an "anti-bitch". So easy to be one if you looked like her and yet she seems to have avoid it for the duration of her life, so far as I know.
Abigail Folger was an intelligent, plain woman with a degree of social awareness of her position. She may not have had as much male attention as she might have wished, and so found Frykowsi to be an access point to a sort of faux bohemian romanticism. I think that she, too, was aware of her good fortune in life--a distinctly different type good fortune from that which Tate enjoyed--and I see no information about her that could be construed as negative, or even privileged.
So far as whether or not she funded Frykowski, if the information that he got his money from Polanski was from him, I'd always be uncertain if it was accurate. Not that it matters, but I was using the supposed situation to highlight a profound difference between Folger and Tate, where the former perhaps *paid* for male company, and the latter basically had to wade thru offers from men, no doubt.
Shoe, I recall a quote attributed to Jerzy Kosinski(although I cannot properly cite it), where he said that Abigail and Sharon shared a common bond of commiseration. This is because, as Kosinski said, both women were hooked up with impossible "narcissists"(Roman, Voytek). Because of this, perhaps both women could relate--at least on that level.
But certainly Abigail and Sharon were from different realms, and obviously entertained different interests. To be sure, the main link between them was Voytek's relationship with Roman. Taken together, it would be wonderful, I think, to discover literarure directly attributed to either Abigail and Sharon that would showcase their relationship.
Torque, I seldom venture into emotional speculation, but with both Folger and Tate I see completely decent human beings who, were they of lesser personal character, could have been mean-spirited and demanding and entitled.
My guess--and it's worthless as fact--is that they were chummy, good-natured toward each other when in social contact.
Think of a double date where the two guys were frat house room-mates and the girls were, perhaps, in the same sorority, or at least in the Greek system.
Really, the two women were much nicer, more decent and generous, than the two guys...Frykowski seemed to be the very definition of a wastrel--not bad, per se, but a zilch--and Polanski completely full of himself.
...but a great, great director. Just saw Repulsion for the first time...wow!
Milly, it's clear you don't like me personally for some reason
What makes you think that ? Both her statements referencing what you said don't appear to be personal. One seems to be an oblique comment regarding Sharon being hot and the other one seems like an attempt at a funny.
Torque said:
At present, not much to go on about the relationship between Sharon and Abigail
I'd say that that's what tells you they weren't particularly close. There's little record of anyone saying anything substantial about them as friends, unlike the two Polish men. That and the fact that the house sitting was at Roman's request to Wojiciech, rather than Sharon's to Abigail.
Doyle said Abigail loved Voytek very much, "and that was obvious"
Yet Abigail's therapist was of the opinion {recorded officially to the police} that she was trying to summon the courage to leave him and was depressed about their relationship.
What makes you think that ? Both her statements referencing what you said don't appear to be personal. One seems to be an oblique comment regarding Sharon being hot and the other one seems like an attempt at a funny.
They were responses to my comments, and hence I'll decide, not you.
GT, you're a decent sort, and I read your posts with a default position of respect. I may not agree (often I do), but I find value in your thought/speculations.
So I'll explain.
In the first instance, I wrote:
"Abigail Folger was an intelligent, plain woman with a degree of social awareness of her position. "
MJ responded to this part, specifically, with:
"Oh a 'plain' woman then? I dare say a fair few of us would be so described if we had a flat mate like Sharon Tate."
Note the emphasis of "plain". This word seemed to trouble MJ, this choice of mine.
And I'd thought about it a bit, searching for a word that to me accurately described the *appearance* of Folger, and "plain" seemed both accurate and economical. I was aware that it had a slightly negative, patronizing connotation, but I felt that we were past that sort of nonsense ("Little did I know...") when *objectively* discussing my considered opinion of both women. In my opinion, Abigail was often a pleasant-looking young woman of no particular distinction in terms of recognized beauty, "average-looking" might also do, but "plain" was a single word, so...
Nor did it matter who she might be compared with--Tate or otherwise--she'd still not rise above the cosmetic level of "average", or plain.
So I thought MJ jumped on that, but so what? I can (and did) ignore it. I might be wrong about MJ's intent, also.
But then in a later post I clarified my impression of the closeness of the two women, likening the two Polish guys to frat brothers, and the two women as if not sorority sisters, at least in sororities--the Greek system.
And I actually felt that this did a good job of describing my perception--which of course could be wrong--to people who had experience of the era--i.e., many of the TLB readers.
But then MJ responded with a sort of snide, snarky:
"Is the Greek System a code for young blokes coming out?"
Now I read this as going well out of his/her way to push a minor insult, all the more so because it was gratuitously added. You'll recall that my use of "Greek system" was in context to the two women, Tate and Folger, and not to two men--and yet that's right where MJ takes it: guys going gay. No context for that, at all, but that's not necessary for a certain kind of interlocutor.
Now bear in mind, I believe that all of this comes from using "plain" to describe Abigail Folger, and this somehow rankling MJ, who doesn't like it, but really can't come right out and say it because, you see, many would agree that Folger is plain. average.
This is just plain dishonest snark, and I'm surprised if others can't see at least the *possibility* of it.
I think the relevant aspect of Abigail's 'attractiveness' or otherwise to WF was that her bank balance, and future of it, was anything but plain.
I don't doubt that there was also some genuine love there as well, but people can and have broken up with someone they are in love with knowing that the person is not good for them, and I think this is what Abigail was struggling with for the last part of her life. Not so much for Frykowski, who I think would have milked that cashcow forever if given the chance. He came from a place of survival, where you exploited every situation you could, and he was exploiting this one as well.
Their co-dependency (she for his spending money, and he to obtain recreational material she couldn't afford to be seen buying) kept them together and they no doubt shared enough good times to look in love to most observers, but I'm equally sure they had unpleasant lows that made Gibby especially believe that their future was limited.
Particularly before the feminist wave of the 70's it must have been tough for someone of Abigail's relative meekness to break from WF's controlling nature. Choosing your time and fearing any consequences. She was at a crossroads in just about every aspect of her life, and under family pressure to start moving along the right path.
So yeah, I could easily see her telling a shrink she was (future tense) leaving WF, but procrastinating over it and telling others she was fine. She was also decent enough to be waiting until Sharon had the baby, and who was in need of companionship until Polanski returned home.
Like so many aspects of this saga, a range of circumstances tragically lined up to put her in that house that particular night, when it so easily could have been otherwise.
Tragical History Tour, I think Abigail was very attracted to Voytek early on, as evidenced in the letter she wrote in May of 1968. (I included this in my post, "Abigail Folger: A Time In New York" on this blog.) What attracted her to Voytek was his worldliness and his seeming intelligence. She even compared American men to men like Voytek, and described American men to be lagging behind, at least in her experience.
I say again that Billy Doyle volunteered that Abigail loved Voytek and wanted him to marry her. But according to Doyle, Voytek avoided marriage with Abigail on account of the fact that she was wealthy. Voytek, according to Doyle, "lead a purely social lifestyle," and Doyle continued to say that he never saw Voytek work. Several of the Polish immigrants to America that he socialized with had achieved a respectable measure of success, or at least were on their way there. Voytek enjoyed none if this, was twice divorced, and had a son back in Poland--a complicated situation to be sure.
Alas, yes, a number of circumstances put her in that house that night.
Torque, how might we rate Doyle as being a reliable source of objective information?
Like most other sources, I'd expect that under some circumstances he might be quite relibale, but in other circumstance, not.
E.g., if he passed along detailed observations well after the fame/notariety of the case was established, if he was seeking personal benefit from his connection to Frykowski, I'd start with the default that he'd create a lot of material to give himself credibility.
Similarly, if he passed information during a period when he might be prosecuted for drug offenses, I'd expect all that to be distorted to his advantage.
But I don't know, and I think you know a lot more about this than I do. What are your personal views as Doyle as a credible source?
BTW, I was just looking at the autopsies to find evidence of drugs, and which kinds, and find that Folger had both .05% blood alcohol (current legal limit for DUI in my state is .08%) and 2.4 mg of MDA in her urine. This is 4x the amount of MDA that Frykowski had. He had no evidence of ethanol either.
This is not definitive, but may be indicative in some sense.
Shoe, I'd rate Doyle as quite credible for the chief reason that he was close to Voytek and Abigail, and offers up very detailed information on Voytek in his taped interview. The date of that interview was August 30, 1969, a mere three weeks after the murders.
Nearly everything I know about Doyle originates on that tape, which of course can be found at cielodrive.com in the Audio Archives.
That interview is close enough to the murders to cause Doyle--to me at least--to sound at times nervous, as he was in fact wanted earlier in the month in connection with the murderes at Cielo. He appeared to be cleared of that charge at the time of the interview, but then became very concerned about the "secondary investigation" around the use of drugs in his sphere of influence. This included especially Cass Elliot.
Tom Harrigan and Pic Dawson also factor heavily into Doyle's interview, and they were known associates with Voytek and Abigail. Doyle knew Pic Dawson especially well, and helped him at one point get clean from heroin. Dawson also rented a room in Abigail and Voytek's house at 2774 Woodstock along with artist Witold-K, and Doyle said that Voytek was helping Pic to once again get clean from heroin.
What I have not seen are interviews from Harrigan and Dawson which may corroborate Doyle's interview. I don't know if Cielodrive.com has them available. These may possibly be obtained through FOIA. Tom O'Neil may also possibly have copies of these, but of course I don't know for sure. Other interviews of intetest here would be those of John and Michelle Phillips, which I also have not seen. Taken together, these interviews may well add substance and credibility to Doyle's.
I also find it intetesting that in his interview, Doyle said, basically, that if anyone had anything bad to say about Voytek, they probably had something to gain from it. This itself is a bit odd to me, as Voytek was alleged to have put mescaline in Doyle's drink, which got him very high and freaked out. Doyle was said to be furious with Voytek when this happened. This can be corroborated by the (available)interview of Bill Rinehart. Tom O'Neil, I believe, in his book, Chaos, referred to Doyle as hard-boiled and quotable, to which I agree.
About the MDA levels found in Abigail and Voytek, I believe it was Bugliosi who said that they may not have taken different doses, but likely dosed at different times--thereby altering the level found in the body at autopsy.
Also, yes, I agree. Well thought out and well written comment by Tragical History Tour.
will you still be happy were even happy for long all those years ago how was she to know that the end was to be in a city of millions in 1969 if only she had just stayed in beautiful California what were you thinking about Paul when John said we're rich lets write a song about it' and The Beatles and The Monkees were still recording and John sang, how does it feel to be one of the beautiful people now that you know who you are what do you want to be Abby Folger was a private school girl. So what? I was too,for several years,though I'm a male, heh Baby Your a Rich Man-Beatles It would take more than a couple paragraphs to describe, to give a general view of what it was like, to be a person that considered him or her self as poor, or as middle class or, as was dear Abigail, wealthy, rich, refined and classy I close my eyes to go back to the mid-to-late 60s and what I saw and heard. On such a subject. There is so much to describe. One person and incident comes to my mind, then another. There, a fella was being sarcastic about a fellow student going to a beach, on a vacation. Another snickered when several students said, "yeah...good idea...let's go to that steakhouse for lunch." "Must be nice..." he said. Like you're supposed to feel guilty to do that. After all, much of the mood in 1967 or 1969, on campuses (college) and in 'hip' hangouts and communes, it was "like, man...money isn't everything and...like...you know materialism isn't where it's at..." Hope you get somewhat of a 'drift' of what I'm trying to convey here though it's not alway easy to put into words what one remembers by going back and reliving certain events and 'scenes,' as it were. I understand and know the mentality of people like Abigail and some that were not like our cute brunette that we are talking about. It was that, as some I have known in those 'heady' days of say,'65-75,that were rich, didn't give a damn about what some people, including those in the media, in movies, songs and so on, making fun of them and trying to make those rich people feel bad, even guilty about having loads of money. They didn't care,but there were the Abby Folger ones that felt some 'heat' even some bit of anguish about having wealth because being 'humble' and 'real' and all that were common themes and words of those 60s days. As I said, it's not easy to bring the images and words to present what the 'feel' was. I wrote this quickly as those experiences began playing in my head again, as the 'pull' to do that. That was what the talk of Abigail being rich had me think about. She did have feelings of well, hafta do some things and act in certain 'down to earth'regular person ways, in these days of 'hippies,' 'hipness,' what's cool... and okay, take some drugs to be cool too...see? She was going to split with hanger-on bum Voytek anyway, I'm sure.She should have been advised that she didn't need to keep seeing the psychiatrist. Any more than Marilyn Monroe did. These shrinks, like many others, just tagged the patient around, to keep them coming in, not good. And it still goes on. I would have told Abby, as I did to some others in the old days: you don't have to volunteer for anything just cause you're told and as they try to make you feel bad. Why don't the showbiz people volunteer for the whatever area they say people need help? You don't have to feel guilty at all. Look around at society. Read the news. Take a drive along Sunset and Hollywood, see the degeneracy all over the place. Screw that. Well, it looks like I just did give a view, a 'film' of my remembering some of what I saw and heard. There's a lot more, that's for sure. Lemme close my eyes and go back again, to '67-'69 and maybe write again.
What'sthe deal? I kep having to go back and delete setence after sentence, again and again as this site says there's a limit of so many characters. Basically, a third of what I had in the above comment, I ended up deleting. And it was good stuff too whatever, as the Valley Girls used to say, or still do on tick tack tock and xxx sites do sheesh or... whatever
Shoe ~ thanks for that. I understand your reasoning. I guess I was curious because Milly has always struck me as calm, measured and reasonable. It's interesting that Abigail comes across as plain. Her Mum was gorgeous.
Tragical History Tour said:
I think.....otherwise
Really well put. Made good sense.
Torque said:
according to Doyle, Voytek avoided marriage with Abigail on account of the fact that she was wealthy
I kind of suspect that having been married twice by the age of 32 might also have contributed !
I keep having to go back and delete sentence after sentence, again and again as this site says there's a limit of so many characters. Basically, a third of what I had in the above comment, I ended up deleting. And it was good stuff too
One thing you could do is have a number of tabs open on the comments page and write everything you want and then number each piece {say, as 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, or however many pages there are}, then press 'publish' in the order you want them. Usually, you have to wait about 30 seconds between each one and so there's always a faint possibility that someone else might publish their comment in between one of yours. But if you numbered them, the reader will know it's you and the order.
As I see it, there were two very different periods in the Folger-Tate relationship.
The first period was before Tate left Cielo Drive for Europe. During this period I would speculate that Folger and Tate saw each other socially maybe three times a month, once at a social event attended by many and twice as two couples met for dinner. This period should have been easy because you weren’t living with each other.
The second period was after Tate returned from Europe to Cielo Drive. Now instead of seeing someone socially a few times a month, Folger and Tate were living under the same roof. This period of time was probably difficult. It is similar to staying with relatives/in-laws or having them stay with you. Even though you may think of them with affection, you can’t wait for them to leave or for you to return home. In some ways, Tate was not returning to her house but to Folger’s house for Folger lived there much longer than Tate. This probably made the situation of living under the same roof more difficult.
First, seeing Fayez Abedaziz post triggered the thought of not seeing (Super) Mario 111 post for a while. Hopefully Mario isn’t sick or deceased. Does anyone know?
Second, Fayez Abedaziz, I believe that blogger is configured or defaults to a (buffer) limit of 4096 characters and you probably exceeded that limit.
TabOrFresca, yes the two periods you describe make sense. Without any additional information from either of the couples, I don't know the ultimate involvement they may have had with each other.
As to the first period, it would have lasted from August 1968, when Voytek and Abigail arrived in LA, to about the third week of March 1969 when Roman and Sharon left the country. Plenty of time to socialize a number of times per month as you say. During this time, too, Roman and Sharon would have been living at the home of Patty Duke before moving to Cielo Drive.
The second period, by contrast, would have been very short. According to Doris Tate and Winifred Chapman, Sharon arrived back in LA on or about July 15th. From that arrival to the murders would be a mere three weeks, but may well have been a very tense time for Sharon. All of which would have been compounded by the fact that her pregnancy was very advanced and her husband was out of the country.
I kind of suspect that having been married twice by the age of 32 might also have contributed !
There was the old rural saying "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"
Too, part of the reason Folger found him attractive was precisely because she viewed him as bohemian. Marriage is not a part of the bohemian image.
It seems complex, but in my experience, many romantic relationships are founded on very strange things, e.g., funny story...
After I dated my first wife for a while (well before marriage, of course), I felt particularly moved to buy her a small gift, just for affection--attraction.
I went to her house (this was college days 69 or so) and she was alone and I believe that she noticed something in my jacket pocket (the gift).She started giving me a real raft of shit, the runaround, taunting, teasing in a way I felt was purposely demeaning.
Eventually I had enough and told her I was leaving. She then asked smugly "What's that in your pocket?"
I said "Nothing much," and left; I took the gift back and got my money. I did not really expect to talk to her or go out again.
But in ways I'll never understand she became really, really interested in me. Started following me around, making nice--also, available.
Torque, listening to the Doyle tapes, did you understand him to say or imply that Cass Elliot had accused him of complicity in the murder at one point?
I'll need to listen a few more times. I think he was largely a solid witness, and most valuable in conveying the lifestyle and character of those living in the society of Hollywood. I worry that in a couple of places he may have a personal axe to grind, in the case of John and Michelle Phillips, e.g., and this willingness to very strongly state dislike/distaste for them casts some level of doubt on his declarations of affection for Frykowski. This is doubly so because he had, at one point, apparently been considered a suspect.
You get right down to it, he declared an affection for three of the four victims at Cielo who were in the house that night, leaving very little info about Sebring.
I think he's essentially truthful, although overstates both good and bad characteristics for whatever reason. I suspect that reason was to convey sincerity to Deemer, the interviewer.
Also, an added bit of information regarding Frykowski's denial of having his expenses paid for by Folger...
There is a Slavic cultural value as regards masculine/feminine roles. First, it's useful to understand that most of the nations that have a Slavic culture are deeply patriarchal in domestic relationships. It is considered unthinkable for a male who wants to retain the respect of the rest of the community, and of other males especially, to NOT be the source of sustenance in any domestic relationship. Any male who was not would be considered less than male--unfulfilling his societal role.
Contrariwise, it would more easily explained as taking money from a male friend because this implies either: a) he was formerly indebted to you, and this is repayment; or b) you are incurring a regrettable obligation that you will certainly repay.
That way you can retain respect, somewhat.
Not saying that this is why Frykowski implied to Doyle that Polanski was supplying his needs, but it may have played into it.
Yes I should have begun by stating that I did believe Gibby to be initially very attracted to him. Introduced by a reputable author and possessing apparent European sophistication and creative talent, she probably thought she was getting her own version of Kosinski or Polanski. Foreign lovers were, after all, the bohemian rage.
But her world had been relatively sheltered (although she should have encountered that referenced 'intelligence' at Harvard) so I really believe it was his worldliness and life experience that appealed to her. And her naivety and wealth combined to allow his obvious mooching to be passed off as investment in his future output as a writer. For a while she can justify this in her mind as some kind of sponsorship of the arts, her area of interest and academic qualification. Alas what she didn't seem to learn was that some 'artists' are particularly good at obtaining patronage and giving very little in return.
By the time it dawns on her that she is playing sugamomma for life, they are in a co dependent unhealthy relationship that has only just enough love and respectability in it to make it difficult to extricate from. Those are the worst kind. I don't think Frykowski would be amicable in that situation, and Abigail may have been waiting for Roman to return to help deflect any anger from him.
Its tough to say for certain what the exact relationship between all the relevant parties was and I don't think any of us would like to be judged based on the few anecdotes of some semi acquaintances. The Polanskis were renting and flitting between continents. AF and WF were switching between houses and on uncertain terms. I think a lot would have changed upon the arrival of Sharon's baby had they lived. I could see her insisting on a more settled lifestyle and pushing away the worst of the hangers on.
In my experience one of the biggest shifts in dynamics between friends comes when one couple starts to have kids and others don't and I think that what would have happened. Sharon had modelling and acting success behind her and her next career for the foreseeable future was motherhood. Abigail was disillusioned by her foray into political activism and seemed to be searching for purpose. I think they would have stayed somewhat friendly but were moving in different directions.
They are now inexorably linked by being co victims in a horrendous crime, but given full lives they may well have all looked back on just a year or so of being particularly close.
I tend to agree with all you've said in today's post.n I'd add this open question...
Frykowski may have had traits and habits that troubled Folger, but he had two things going for him, only one of which we can be fairly sure of: by his attention--the attention of an older, worldly European man, she felt fulfilled to a degree. I feel that she had had previous male admirers, but not too many; and b) to the best of my knowledge Frykowski was not sexually unfaithful to Folger. There seems no evidence that he was, nor does he look like much of a ladies' man.
Shoe, yes. I have traditionally understood Doyle as saying Cass had implicated him in the murders at Cielo. This may have been after some coaching of her by John Phillips.
For sure I agree Doyle was a solid witness, who at one point was seriously planning on marrying Cass. I imagine it was thru Cass that Doyle met Abigail and Voytek.
John and Michelle Phillips were no doubt under the impression that Doyle and Dawson were part of the crew that was "feeding off Cass." Because of this they were no doubt hostile towards them.
I see Doyle as a player, an interloper, who attached himself to this special subset of the Hollywood community through his association with Cass, whom he originally met in Toronto. Nevertheless he served as an important witness to the goings on within this special group.
If I am reading Tom O'Neil correctly, there may be additional tape time of the Doyle interview. If so, it would be important, I think, to hear this, or have a full transcript of the recording.
Grim, yes, married and divorced twice by age 32 is a bit of a track record, isn't it? No doubt this could have contributed to Voytek dodging marriage.
Interestingly, Abigail comments on this very thing in her letter, indicating that she was well aware that Voytek had been married previously, and that he does it, "like other people sneeze."
This apparently did not change Abigail's affection for Voytek, and may have contributed to her view of him as being more "worldly".
John and Michelle Phillips were no doubt under the impression that Doyle and Dawson were part of the crew that was "feeding off Cass." Because of this they were no doubt hostile towards them.
I think there may have been a parallel between Elliot's situation with Doyle and Folger's with Frykowski. Neither woman would normally be much sought after by males, but because they had additional financial means they were able to get much additional male attention.
And both women, being intelligent, would realize the reality of this, I suspect.
Gosh, that's unpleasant...
Now given a choice between Doyle and Frykowski in terms of integrity and honor, probably Frykowski was the better man. So Folger probably had the better deal, domestically and emotionally.
Matthew said... Her roommate was Sharon Gless and she was a blond.
-----------------------------------
Of course. And a pretty stunning one. Good call.
Poor Gibby. I wonder if she ever felt plain next to her or Sharon T. I don't think she was. But it may have contributed to any insecurities she had. Which in turn may have overvalued WF's attentions.
In 1968 I was seven years old and in love with the song "Love Is Blue". Our teenage neighbor came by at the end of the year, listening to his transistor radio tuned to KFRC I guess, and they were counting down the Top 100 songs of the year. They were almost to the number one song and I asked him what number Love Is Blue was and he dismissively/teasingly said "number 99". In my perhaps faulty memory "Love Is Blue" quickly came on at the number 3 position and I felt a little moral victory over the older jaded neighbor boy, haha. You weren't supposed to like easy listening music but a lot of people did. I agree with Torque about the wide variety of music at least in the top 40 in the late sixties, although I'm sure Grim is right about the development of different genres before that.
In 1968 I was seven years old and in love with the song "Love Is Blue". Our teenage neighbor came by at the end of the year, listening to his transistor radio tuned to KFRC I guess, ...
CarolMR, the accepted thinking on their continued residing at Cielo was because Roman Polanski asked them to do so. Abigail and Voytek could then assist Sharon in whatever needs she may have, especially in her condition.
Might be that many of us on the blog have already seen this wonderful video already...but, if you haven't had the opportunity to check it out yet, I really recommend that you do.
Very interesting ties to Abigail, Sharon and, if memory serves, Witold K as well.
The three friends in the discussion on this lovely blog post/video
I posted this interesting video up above as a reply but I will post the link here too. Many of you may have already seen it but if you haven't...I highly recommend you give it a viewing.
It is a great recollection of a (then) child and, the treasures he/his family received from both Abigail and Sharon. Witold K is also an integral part of the story.
Shoegazer, if it wasn't KFRC it probably would have been KYA. Was KRLA used for Once Upon A Time In Hollywood? The more I watched that movie the more I realized my favorite parts are mostly when Cliff is driving listening to the radio, because it really brings back the feeling of the era for me.
Torque, it's funny 'Sugar, Sugar' is the other music memory I have of that neighbor boy. He took me to his house to hear it-I hadn't heard it. He had me stick my head down in front of the speaker and put it on. It seemed like he thought it was pretty amazing. I was never as taken with it lol.
Doug thanks for that video link. It really was worth watching and finally gave me a personal story of Gibby as well as Sharon. It was great to hear of her warmth towards a child. It was also interesting to me that she primarily spoke in French with Voytek.
KYA was the SF station I listened to when my parents moved to Marin county in '64, Ed Hyder in particular. Prior to that I lived in the southern San Joaquin valley and KRLA you could just get sometimes. It was enough for me to hear Emperor Hudson's sign-off a few times...
"Clear the freeway, peasants! His Highness is going home!"
I'm thinking in OUATIH it was KHJ.
When I moved to LA in the 80s all I ever listened to was KLON jazz.
There were some good songs on AM by CCR, Blood Sweat and Tears, and Tommy James that year. Groups like Led Zeppelin, the Allman Brothers, and Chicago all released albums that weren’t geared for AM but found life on the emerging progressive FM stations.
Another popular AM song was sung by Bobby Sherman. “Little Woman” almost sounds like something Manson wrote”.
Hey Little Woman please make up your mind You've got to come into my world And leave your world behind Na, na, na, na... You got to come down from that cloud girl and Leave your world behind
Tabofresca - Mario III commented a post or two back. He's entangled in his regular issues and has had some health problems. But he's still with us and thanks us all for asking.
Tab. Thank you for caring about me ⬇️ "Hopefully Mario isn’t sick or deceased. Does anyone know?" ⬇️ And thank you Ms Milly James for letting Tab know👍👍👍
I still read this blog every day. Every once in a while something is said on this blog that is related to a Charles Manson Case situation that I'm very invested in. It happened the other day with Ms Louise Labianca discussing Joe Dorgan. I'm very happy to see that Ms Louise Labianca is commenting on this blog. She's very respectful and courteous. I would like to ask her if she has any photographs of Joe Dorgan, and see if they "match-up" with photographs that I have with some "group-photographs" that I have.
Also, DebS. So sorry for your loss of your husband. I hope you're doing ok🙏🙏🙏
Mario George Nitrini 111 ------ The OJ Simpson Case
Hello, thank you for your kind words re: "respectful and courteous". I mainly like to bring up little details that are not too well-known in hopes someone can put it together. I also have wondered most all my life if there was something more going on than the official HS theory. If so, I would like to know and I appreciate that there continues to be at least some maintained interest in the subject--don't give up! Thank you.
Unfortunately, I have no pics of Joe Dorgan and I barely remember what he looked like, except for for that one news photo that everyone has seen where Joe and Suzan are walking down the driveway at Waverly Dr.
Of course, it is difficult or basically impossible for me to be objective which is why I mainly try to point out little details that someone else can use for their further research. Does this detail matter? When I see that photo I wonder if that was the day Suzan grabbed her mom's jewelry and ended up with my grandfather's gold watch? Decades later, she was trying to contact my brother via email or something but he declined.
I see by the caption that the photo was taken Aug. 11, 1969. The incident I mentioned was a few weeks later. I'm still curious what she is carrying. Sad day.
From this blog ⬇️ https://www.mansonblog.com/2012/11/satans-slaves-motorcycle-club.html?m=1 I'll see if I can match-up the photo (The Face) you referenced with what I have. Thanks
The video in this post is a very nice tribute to Abigail Folger. I remember Love is Blue well from that era--Sugar Sugar by the Archies, too. I was at the height of my bubble gum stage that year -- sad but true. Beatles too--never could listen all the way through the White Album after the HS connections were made, even though some of my favorite Beatles songs like Back in the USSR are on there.
80 comments:
Poor girl. She didn't even get to live past her 20s. Happy birthday, Miss Folger!
You picked a very decent 60’s instrumental. The TV variety shows and AM music were so diverse that you got a taste of many things.
Sharon might have been the first 'blonde' Abigail ever met. There were just none at her schools. Yeah I notice silly stuff.
Also, Leno would have been 98 on August 6th.
TabOrFresca, thanks. Yes, I'm often amazed at the wide array of musical offerings in the late 60's.
Tragical History Tour, I have no doubt that Abigail and Sharon were close. However, a detailed account of their friendship is absent from the contemporary literature. Moreover, I've seen perhaps only one photo of Sharon and Abigail together. Its a pity more photos are not circulating of them together.
Thanks for the reminder about Leno. Last I heard about Steve Parent's father, he was 95 and living in a nursing home in Texas. For the birthdate recollection videos I make, I like to focus on birthdates on the 10-year mark--hence Sharon and Abigail's 80th each this year.
Artist friend to Abigail and Voytek, Witold-K, turned 90 in May of 2022. Hes 91 now and looking good in my opinion.
Torque said...
I'm often amazed at the wide array of musical offerings in the late 60's
I feel the opposite. From the early 20s right up until the late 50s, different musical genres had been appearing, sometimes fusing and mutating. Then from about 1963, that process accelerated at a quite dazzling rate and there were many evolutions, fusions and experiments. The world got smaller and people got more easily bored with what they were having to stick with and both musicians and consumers were in the mood to break out and try new things.
I have no doubt that Abigail and Sharon were close. However, a detailed account of their friendship is absent from the contemporary literature
It's only the opinion of one person, but according to Sheilah Wells, "I remember an evening in July, about three weeks before the murder. I was with Sharon in the bedroom watching television. In the sitting room on the sofa lay Gibby and Frykowski. Sharon pointed at the both and said sighing: 'These people ... I do not understand this, they are always stoned.'"
From when I read Ed sanders book on Sharon {it's pretty lame}, I kind of got the impression that Sharon and Abigail weren't particularly close as time went by although by default, they were initially. Abigail was in Cielo because she was with Wojiciech {whom, it appears, she was about to break up with} and Wojiciech was in the house because of Roman, who was described as a "sort of Polish YMCA in America." Greg King described Wojiciech as having made a career of following Roman around the globe.....
But like most things in this saga, there are multiple views.
HaPpY BirTHdaY GiBby !!!
Maybe we can all chip in and buy her the front door to the house being auctioned off for her big day.
WRT to the idea that Tate and Folger were "close", this seems less likely than not.
From what I've read, just in general, both seemed to be decent human beings living in a very synthetic world. To my mind, this is commendable.
But Tate was a remarkably beautiful woman and an actress who was about to be a mother. Folger was rather plain, and was likely a product of enlightened education, not particularly involved in entertainment, and seemingly substituting social awareness for direct motherhood, at least at that stage of her life.
Their connection was that Tate had married a director of Polish nationality, and he had a friend/hanger-on who for all the world seemed to be living the life of a kept man. Polanski more than likely proposed his friend, Frykowsi, and his patroness/lover, as house-sitters, and that was the extent of it, so far as I know.
I'm certainly willing to be informed otherwise.
Shoe, I admit the relationship between Sharon and Abigail remains a mystery to me. To my knowledge, there is nothing in the available literature that describes the depth of this relationship. Indeed, Sharon, in all of her interviews does not mention either Abigail or Voytek--at least not to my knowledge.
Artist Witold-K, friend to Abigail and Voytek, volunteers several things about this couple, but nothing about their relationship to Sharon. Roman Polanski himself, in his autobiography, offers up precious little about Abigail, and nothing about her relationship to Sharon.
At least at this point, I would find it difficult to accept that Sharon and Abigail's relationship was terse or strained. If it were, I for one would think this would have been brought out in the literature.
Billy Doyle, when interviewed by LAPD in Toronto, said Sharon and Abigail were both "nice girls." Doyle said Abigail loved Voytek very much, "and that was obvious". But alas, Doyle offered nothing in the way of the more intricate substance of Abigail and Sharon's relationship.
We should remember that it was novelist Jerzy Kosinski who introduced Abigail to Voytek in New York. No doubt it was Voytek who introduced Abigail to Sharon and Roman later, ostensibly in Los Angeles.
Yet Doyle, when directly asked by police, if Abigail was "keeping" Voytek, remarked she was not, but that Roman was taking care of Voytek financially, and that Voytek had intimated this to Doyle.
At present, not much to go on about the relationship between Sharon and Abigail.
Torque:
At least at this point, I would find it difficult to accept that Sharon and Abigail's relationship was terse or strained.
There's "close" and there's "strained", and there's the in-between: acquaintanceship but little more, simply because of the lack of shared interests and backgrounds. That's how I see their relationship.
Here's how I see each of them:
Sharon Tate was a remarkably beautiful woman who seemed to have a degree of humility about her good fortune. I've never yet read anything of her, or anything she has purported to have said, that I can construe as negative. I *do* however, get the idea that as a sort of traditionalist female of the era, she was attracted to, and deferred to decisive males. She was very role bound, in my opinion.
She seemed to treat all other women with equanimity and good will, it seems; no flaunting that I've heard of. She was therefore an "anti-bitch". So easy to be one if you looked like her and yet she seems to have avoid it for the duration of her life, so far as I know.
Abigail Folger was an intelligent, plain woman with a degree of social awareness of her position. She may not have had as much male attention as she might have wished, and so found Frykowsi to be an access point to a sort of faux bohemian romanticism. I think that she, too, was aware of her good fortune in life--a distinctly different type good fortune from that which Tate enjoyed--and I see no information about her that could be construed as negative, or even privileged.
So far as whether or not she funded Frykowski, if the information that he got his money from Polanski was from him, I'd always be uncertain if it was accurate. Not that it matters, but I was using the supposed situation to highlight a profound difference between Folger and Tate, where the former perhaps *paid* for male company, and the latter basically had to wade thru offers from men, no doubt.
Shoe, I recall a quote attributed to Jerzy Kosinski(although I cannot properly cite it), where he said that Abigail and Sharon shared a common bond of commiseration. This is because, as Kosinski said, both women were hooked up with impossible "narcissists"(Roman, Voytek). Because of this, perhaps both women could relate--at least on that level.
But certainly Abigail and Sharon were from different realms, and obviously entertained different interests. To be sure, the main link between them was Voytek's relationship with Roman. Taken together, it would be wonderful, I think, to discover literarure directly attributed to either Abigail and Sharon that would showcase their relationship.
Oh a 'plain' woman then? I dare say a fair few of us would be so described if we had a flat mate like Sharon Tate.
Sharon was anything but flat.
Torque, I seldom venture into emotional speculation, but with both Folger and Tate I see completely decent human beings who, were they of lesser personal character, could have been mean-spirited and demanding and entitled.
My guess--and it's worthless as fact--is that they were chummy, good-natured toward each other when in social contact.
Think of a double date where the two guys were frat house room-mates and the girls were, perhaps, in the same sorority, or at least in the Greek system.
Really, the two women were much nicer, more decent and generous, than the two guys...Frykowski seemed to be the very definition of a wastrel--not bad, per se, but a zilch--and Polanski completely full of himself.
...but a great, great director. Just saw Repulsion for the first time...wow!
Anyway, that's my intuition on the matter... :^)
Is the Greek System a code for young blokes coming out?
Milly, it's clear you don't like me personally for some reason. Let's leave it at that...
shoegazer said:
Milly, it's clear you don't like me personally for some reason
What makes you think that ? Both her statements referencing what you said don't appear to be personal. One seems to be an oblique comment regarding Sharon being hot and the other one seems like an attempt at a funny.
Torque said:
At present, not much to go on about the relationship between Sharon and Abigail
I'd say that that's what tells you they weren't particularly close. There's little record of anyone saying anything substantial about them as friends, unlike the two Polish men. That and the fact that the house sitting was at Roman's request to Wojiciech, rather than Sharon's to Abigail.
Doyle said Abigail loved Voytek very much, "and that was obvious"
Yet Abigail's therapist was of the opinion {recorded officially to the police} that she was trying to summon the courage to leave him and was depressed about their relationship.
GT:
What makes you think that ? Both her statements referencing what you said don't appear to be personal. One seems to be an oblique comment regarding Sharon being hot and the other one seems like an attempt at a funny.
They were responses to my comments, and hence I'll decide, not you.
That's fair enough, but I was curious as to what made you think that.
But, if you don't want to say......
GT, you're a decent sort, and I read your posts with a default position of respect. I may not agree (often I do), but I find value in your thought/speculations.
So I'll explain.
In the first instance, I wrote:
"Abigail Folger was an intelligent, plain woman with a degree of social awareness of her position. "
MJ responded to this part, specifically, with:
"Oh a 'plain' woman then? I dare say a fair few of us would be so described if we had a flat mate like Sharon Tate."
Note the emphasis of "plain". This word seemed to trouble MJ, this choice of mine.
And I'd thought about it a bit, searching for a word that to me accurately described the *appearance* of Folger, and "plain" seemed both accurate and economical. I was aware that it had a slightly negative, patronizing connotation, but I felt that we were past that sort of nonsense ("Little did I know...") when *objectively* discussing my considered opinion of both women. In my opinion, Abigail was often a pleasant-looking young woman of no particular distinction in terms of recognized beauty, "average-looking" might also do, but "plain" was a single word, so...
Nor did it matter who she might be compared with--Tate or otherwise--she'd still not rise above the cosmetic level of "average", or plain.
So I thought MJ jumped on that, but so what? I can (and did) ignore it. I might be wrong about MJ's intent, also.
But then in a later post I clarified my impression of the closeness of the two women, likening the two Polish guys to frat brothers, and the two women as if not sorority sisters, at least in sororities--the Greek system.
And I actually felt that this did a good job of describing my perception--which of course could be wrong--to people who had experience of the era--i.e., many of the TLB readers.
But then MJ responded with a sort of snide, snarky:
"Is the Greek System a code for young blokes coming out?"
Now I read this as going well out of his/her way to push a minor insult, all the more so because it was gratuitously added. You'll recall that my use of "Greek system" was in context to the two women, Tate and Folger, and not to two men--and yet that's right where MJ takes it: guys going gay. No context for that, at all, but that's not necessary for a certain kind of interlocutor.
Now bear in mind, I believe that all of this comes from using "plain" to describe Abigail Folger, and this somehow rankling MJ, who doesn't like it, but really can't come right out and say it because, you see, many would agree that Folger is plain. average.
This is just plain dishonest snark, and I'm surprised if others can't see at least the *possibility* of it.
...and if it was an attempt at humor...
I think the relevant aspect of Abigail's 'attractiveness' or otherwise to WF was that her bank balance, and future of it, was anything but plain.
I don't doubt that there was also some genuine love there as well, but people can and have broken up with someone they are in love with knowing that the person is not good for them, and I think this is what Abigail was struggling with for the last part of her life. Not so much for Frykowski, who I think would have milked that cashcow forever if given the chance. He came from a place of survival, where you exploited every situation you could, and he was exploiting this one as well.
Their co-dependency (she for his spending money, and he to obtain recreational material she couldn't afford to be seen buying) kept them together and they no doubt shared enough good times to look in love to most observers, but I'm equally sure they had unpleasant lows that made Gibby especially believe that their future was limited.
Particularly before the feminist wave of the 70's it must have been tough for someone of Abigail's relative meekness to break from WF's controlling nature. Choosing your time and fearing any consequences. She was at a crossroads in just about every aspect of her life, and under family pressure to start moving along the right path.
So yeah, I could easily see her telling a shrink she was (future tense) leaving WF, but procrastinating over it and telling others she was fine. She was also decent enough to be waiting until Sharon had the baby, and who was in need of companionship until Polanski returned home.
Like so many aspects of this saga, a range of circumstances tragically lined up to put her in that house that particular night, when it so easily could have been otherwise.
FWIW, very good post, THT.
Tragical History Tour, I think Abigail was very attracted to Voytek early on, as evidenced in the letter she wrote in May of 1968. (I included this in my post, "Abigail Folger: A Time In New York" on this blog.) What attracted her to Voytek was his worldliness and his seeming intelligence. She even compared American men to men like Voytek, and described American men to be lagging behind, at least in her experience.
I say again that Billy Doyle volunteered that Abigail loved Voytek and wanted him to marry her. But according to Doyle, Voytek avoided marriage with Abigail on account of the fact that she was wealthy. Voytek, according to Doyle, "lead a purely social lifestyle," and Doyle continued to say that he never saw Voytek work. Several of the Polish immigrants to America that he socialized with had achieved a respectable measure of success, or at least were on their way there. Voytek enjoyed none if this, was twice divorced, and had a son back in Poland--a complicated situation to be sure.
Alas, yes, a number of circumstances put her in that house that night.
Torque, how might we rate Doyle as being a reliable source of objective information?
Like most other sources, I'd expect that under some circumstances he might be quite relibale, but in other circumstance, not.
E.g., if he passed along detailed observations well after the fame/notariety of the case was established, if he was seeking personal benefit from his connection to Frykowski, I'd start with the default that he'd create a lot of material to give himself credibility.
Similarly, if he passed information during a period when he might be prosecuted for drug offenses, I'd expect all that to be distorted to his advantage.
But I don't know, and I think you know a lot more about this than I do. What are your personal views as Doyle as a credible source?
BTW, I was just looking at the autopsies to find evidence of drugs, and which kinds, and find that Folger had both .05% blood alcohol (current legal limit for DUI in my state is .08%) and 2.4 mg of MDA in her urine. This is 4x the amount of MDA that Frykowski had. He had no evidence of ethanol either.
This is not definitive, but may be indicative in some sense.
Shoe, I'd rate Doyle as quite credible for the chief reason that he was close to Voytek and Abigail, and offers up very detailed information on Voytek in his taped interview. The date of that interview was August 30, 1969, a mere three weeks after the murders.
Nearly everything I know about Doyle originates on that tape, which of course can be found at cielodrive.com in the Audio Archives.
That interview is close enough to the murders to cause Doyle--to me at least--to sound at times nervous, as he was in fact wanted earlier in the month in connection with the murderes at Cielo. He appeared to be cleared of that charge at the time of the interview, but then became very concerned about the "secondary investigation" around the use of drugs in his sphere of influence. This included especially Cass Elliot.
Tom Harrigan and Pic Dawson also factor heavily into Doyle's interview, and they were known associates with Voytek and Abigail. Doyle knew Pic Dawson especially well, and helped him at one point get clean from heroin. Dawson also rented a room in Abigail and Voytek's house at 2774 Woodstock along with artist Witold-K, and Doyle said that Voytek was helping Pic to once again get clean from heroin.
What I have not seen are interviews from Harrigan and Dawson which may corroborate Doyle's interview. I don't know if Cielodrive.com has them available. These may possibly be obtained through FOIA. Tom O'Neil may also possibly have copies of these, but of course I don't know for sure. Other interviews of intetest here would be those of John and Michelle Phillips, which I also have not seen. Taken together, these interviews may well add substance and credibility to Doyle's.
I also find it intetesting that in his interview, Doyle said, basically, that if anyone had anything bad to say about Voytek, they probably had something to gain from it. This itself is a bit odd to me, as Voytek was alleged to have put mescaline in Doyle's drink, which got him very high and freaked out. Doyle was said to be furious with Voytek when this happened. This can be corroborated by the (available)interview of Bill Rinehart. Tom O'Neil, I believe, in his book, Chaos, referred to Doyle as hard-boiled and quotable, to which I agree.
About the MDA levels found in Abigail and Voytek, I believe it was Bugliosi who said that they may not have taken different doses, but likely dosed at different times--thereby altering the level found in the body at autopsy.
Also, yes, I agree. Well thought out and well written comment by Tragical History Tour.
Good stuff, Torque.
I'll try to listen to the Doyle interview soon.
Thanks!
will you still be happy were even happy for long
all those years ago
how was she to know that the end was to be in a city of millions in 1969
if only she had just stayed in beautiful California
what were you thinking about Paul when John said we're rich
lets write a song about it'
and The Beatles and The Monkees were still recording and John sang,
how does it feel to be one of the beautiful people
now that you know who you are
what do you want to be
Abby Folger was a private school girl. So what? I was too,for several years,though I'm a male, heh
Baby Your a Rich Man-Beatles
It would take more than a couple paragraphs to describe, to give a general view of what it was like, to be a person that considered him or her self as poor, or as middle class or, as was dear Abigail, wealthy, rich, refined and classy
I close my eyes to go back to the mid-to-late 60s and what I saw and heard.
On such a subject. There is so much to describe.
One person and incident comes to my mind, then another.
There, a fella was being sarcastic about a fellow student going to a beach, on a vacation.
Another snickered when several students said, "yeah...good idea...let's go to that steakhouse for lunch." "Must be nice..." he said.
Like you're supposed to feel guilty to do that.
After all, much of the mood in 1967 or 1969, on campuses (college) and in 'hip' hangouts and communes, it was "like, man...money isn't everything and...like...you know materialism isn't where it's at..."
Hope you get somewhat of a 'drift' of what I'm trying to convey here
though it's not alway easy to put into words what one remembers by going back and reliving certain events and 'scenes,' as it were.
I understand and know the mentality of people like Abigail and some that were not like our cute brunette that we are talking about.
It was that, as some I have known in those 'heady' days of say,'65-75,that were rich, didn't give a damn about what some people, including those in the media, in movies, songs and so on, making fun of them and trying to make those rich people feel bad, even guilty about having loads of money.
They didn't care,but there were the Abby Folger ones that felt some 'heat' even some bit of anguish about having wealth because being 'humble' and 'real' and all that were common themes and words of those 60s days.
As I said, it's not easy to bring the images and words to present what the 'feel' was.
I wrote this quickly as those experiences began playing in my head again, as the 'pull' to do that. That was what the talk of Abigail being rich had me think about.
She did have feelings of well, hafta do some things and act in certain 'down to earth'regular person ways, in these days of 'hippies,' 'hipness,' what's cool...
and okay, take some drugs to be cool too...see?
She was going to split with hanger-on bum Voytek anyway, I'm sure.She should have been advised that she didn't need to keep seeing the psychiatrist. Any more than Marilyn Monroe did.
These shrinks, like many others, just tagged the patient around, to keep them coming in, not good. And it still goes on.
I would have told Abby, as I did to some others in the old days: you don't have to volunteer for anything just cause you're told and as they try to make you feel bad.
Why don't the showbiz people volunteer for the whatever area they say people need help? You don't have to feel guilty at all. Look around at society. Read the news.
Take a drive along Sunset and Hollywood, see the degeneracy all over the place.
Screw that.
Well, it looks like I just did give a view, a 'film' of my remembering some of what I saw and heard. There's a lot more, that's for sure. Lemme close my eyes and go back again, to '67-'69 and maybe write again.
What'sthe deal?
I kep having to go back and delete setence after sentence, again and again as this site says there's a limit of so many characters.
Basically, a third of what I had in the above comment, I ended up deleting.
And it was good stuff too
whatever, as the Valley Girls used to say, or still do on tick tack tock and xxx sites do sheesh or...
whatever
Shoe ~ thanks for that. I understand your reasoning. I guess I was curious because Milly has always struck me as calm, measured and reasonable.
It's interesting that Abigail comes across as plain. Her Mum was gorgeous.
Tragical History Tour said:
I think.....otherwise
Really well put. Made good sense.
Torque said:
according to Doyle, Voytek avoided marriage with Abigail on account of the fact that she was wealthy
I kind of suspect that having been married twice by the age of 32 might also have contributed !
Fayez Abedaziz said...
I keep having to go back and delete sentence after sentence, again and again as this site says there's a limit of so many characters.
Basically, a third of what I had in the above comment, I ended up deleting.
And it was good stuff too
One thing you could do is have a number of tabs open on the comments page and write everything you want and then number each piece {say, as 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, or however many pages there are}, then press 'publish' in the order you want them. Usually, you have to wait about 30 seconds between each one and so there's always a faint possibility that someone else might publish their comment in between one of yours. But if you numbered them, the reader will know it's you and the order.
As I see it, there were two very different periods in the Folger-Tate relationship.
The first period was before Tate left Cielo Drive for Europe. During this period I would speculate that Folger and Tate saw each other socially maybe three times a month, once at a social event attended by many and twice as two couples met for dinner. This period should have been easy because you weren’t living with each other.
The second period was after Tate returned from Europe to Cielo Drive. Now instead of seeing someone socially a few times a month, Folger and Tate were living under the same roof. This period of time was probably difficult. It is similar to staying with relatives/in-laws or having them stay with you. Even though you may think of them with affection, you can’t wait for them to leave or for you to return home. In some ways, Tate was not returning to her house but to Folger’s house for Folger lived there much longer than Tate. This probably made the situation of living under the same roof more difficult.
Off topic.
First, seeing Fayez Abedaziz post triggered the thought of not seeing (Super) Mario 111 post for a while. Hopefully Mario isn’t sick or deceased. Does anyone know?
Second, Fayez Abedaziz, I believe that blogger is configured or defaults to a (buffer) limit of 4096 characters and you probably exceeded that limit.
TabOrFresca, yes the two periods you describe make sense. Without any additional information from either of the couples, I don't know the ultimate involvement they may have had with each other.
As to the first period, it would have lasted from August 1968, when Voytek and Abigail arrived in LA, to about the third week of March 1969 when Roman and Sharon left the country. Plenty of time to socialize a number of times per month as you say. During this time, too, Roman and Sharon would have been living at the home of Patty Duke before moving to Cielo Drive.
The second period, by contrast, would have been very short. According to Doris Tate and Winifred Chapman, Sharon arrived back in LA on or about July 15th. From that arrival to the murders would be a mere three weeks, but may well have been a very tense time for Sharon. All of which would have been compounded by the fact that her pregnancy was very advanced and her husband was out of the country.
GT:
I kind of suspect that having been married twice by the age of 32 might also have contributed !
There was the old rural saying "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"
Too, part of the reason Folger found him attractive was precisely because she viewed him as bohemian. Marriage is not a part of the bohemian image.
It seems complex, but in my experience, many romantic relationships are founded on very strange things, e.g., funny story...
After I dated my first wife for a while (well before marriage, of course), I felt particularly moved to buy her a small gift, just for affection--attraction.
I went to her house (this was college days 69 or so) and she was alone and I believe that she noticed something in my jacket pocket (the gift).She started giving me a real raft of shit, the runaround, taunting, teasing in a way I felt was purposely demeaning.
Eventually I had enough and told her I was leaving. She then asked smugly "What's that in your pocket?"
I said "Nothing much," and left; I took the gift back and got my money. I did not really expect to talk to her or go out again.
But in ways I'll never understand she became really, really interested in me. Started following me around, making nice--also, available.
Go figger, huh?
Life is filled with weirdness like that.
Her roommate was Sharon Gless and she was a blond
Torque, listening to the Doyle tapes, did you understand him to say or imply that Cass Elliot had accused him of complicity in the murder at one point?
I'll need to listen a few more times. I think he was largely a solid witness, and most valuable in conveying the lifestyle and character of those living in the society of Hollywood. I worry that in a couple of places he may have a personal axe to grind, in the case of John and Michelle Phillips, e.g., and this willingness to very strongly state dislike/distaste for them casts some level of doubt on his declarations of affection for Frykowski. This is doubly so because he had, at one point, apparently been considered a suspect.
You get right down to it, he declared an affection for three of the four victims at Cielo who were in the house that night, leaving very little info about Sebring.
I think he's essentially truthful, although overstates both good and bad characteristics for whatever reason. I suspect that reason was to convey sincerity to Deemer, the interviewer.
What do you think?
Also, an added bit of information regarding Frykowski's denial of having his expenses paid for by Folger...
There is a Slavic cultural value as regards masculine/feminine roles. First, it's useful to understand that most of the nations that have a Slavic culture are deeply patriarchal in domestic relationships. It is considered unthinkable for a male who wants to retain the respect of the rest of the community, and of other males especially, to NOT be the source of sustenance in any domestic relationship. Any male who was not would be considered less than male--unfulfilling his societal role.
Contrariwise, it would more easily explained as taking money from a male friend because this implies either: a) he was formerly indebted to you, and this is repayment; or b) you are incurring a regrettable obligation that you will certainly repay.
That way you can retain respect, somewhat.
Not saying that this is why Frykowski implied to Doyle that Polanski was supplying his needs, but it may have played into it.
It is a VERY strong cultural value.
Torque
Yes I should have begun by stating that I did believe Gibby to be initially very attracted to him. Introduced by a reputable author and possessing apparent European sophistication and creative talent, she probably thought she was getting her own version of Kosinski or Polanski. Foreign lovers were, after all, the bohemian rage.
But her world had been relatively sheltered (although she should have encountered that referenced 'intelligence' at Harvard) so I really believe it was his worldliness and life experience that appealed to her. And her naivety and wealth combined to allow his obvious mooching to be passed off as investment in his future output as a writer. For a while she can justify this in her mind as some kind of sponsorship of the arts, her area of interest and academic qualification. Alas what she didn't seem to learn was that some 'artists' are particularly good at obtaining patronage and giving very little in return.
By the time it dawns on her that she is playing sugamomma for life, they are in a co dependent unhealthy relationship that has only just enough love and respectability in it to make it difficult to extricate from. Those are the worst kind. I don't think Frykowski would be amicable in that situation, and Abigail may have been waiting for Roman to return to help deflect any anger from him.
Its tough to say for certain what the exact relationship between all the relevant parties was and I don't think any of us would like to be judged based on the few anecdotes of some semi acquaintances. The Polanskis were renting and flitting between continents. AF and WF were switching between houses and on uncertain terms. I think a lot would have changed upon the arrival of Sharon's baby had they lived. I could see her insisting on a more settled lifestyle and pushing away the worst of the hangers on.
In my experience one of the biggest shifts in dynamics between friends comes when one couple starts to have kids and others don't and I think that what would have happened.
Sharon had modelling and acting success behind her and her next career for the foreseeable future was motherhood. Abigail was disillusioned by her foray into political activism and seemed to be searching for purpose. I think they would have stayed somewhat friendly but were moving in different directions.
They are now inexorably linked by being co victims in a horrendous crime, but given full lives they may well have all looked back on just a year or so of being particularly close.
THT:
I tend to agree with all you've said in today's post.n I'd add this open question...
Frykowski may have had traits and habits that troubled Folger, but he had two things going for him, only one of which we can be fairly sure of: by his attention--the attention of an older, worldly European man, she felt fulfilled to a degree. I feel that she had had previous male admirers, but not too many; and b) to the best of my knowledge Frykowski was not sexually unfaithful to Folger. There seems no evidence that he was, nor does he look like much of a ladies' man.
But I really don't know.
Shoe, yes. I have traditionally understood Doyle as saying Cass had implicated him in the murders at Cielo. This may have been after some coaching of her by John Phillips.
For sure I agree Doyle was a solid witness, who at one point was seriously planning on marrying Cass. I imagine it was thru Cass that Doyle met Abigail and Voytek.
John and Michelle Phillips were no doubt under the impression that Doyle and Dawson were part of the crew that was "feeding off Cass." Because of this they were no doubt hostile towards them.
I see Doyle as a player, an interloper, who attached himself to this special subset of the Hollywood community through his association with Cass, whom he originally met in Toronto. Nevertheless he served as an important witness to the goings on within this special group.
If I am reading Tom O'Neil correctly, there may be additional tape time of the Doyle interview. If so, it would be important, I think, to hear this, or have a full transcript of the recording.
Grim, yes, married and divorced twice by age 32 is a bit of a track record, isn't it? No doubt this could have contributed to Voytek dodging marriage.
Interestingly, Abigail comments on this very thing in her letter, indicating that she was well aware that Voytek had been married previously, and that he does it, "like other people sneeze."
This apparently did not change Abigail's affection for Voytek, and may have contributed to her view of him as being more "worldly".
Torque:
John and Michelle Phillips were no doubt under the impression that Doyle and Dawson were part of the crew that was "feeding off Cass." Because of this they were no doubt hostile towards them.
I think there may have been a parallel between Elliot's situation with Doyle and Folger's with Frykowski. Neither woman would normally be much sought after by males, but because they had additional financial means they were able to get much additional male attention.
And both women, being intelligent, would realize the reality of this, I suspect.
Gosh, that's unpleasant...
Now given a choice between Doyle and Frykowski in terms of integrity and honor, probably Frykowski was the better man. So Folger probably had the better deal, domestically and emotionally.
Not really much of a choice, however...
Matthew said...
Her roommate was Sharon Gless and she was a blond.
-----------------------------------
Of course. And a pretty stunning one. Good call.
Poor Gibby. I wonder if she ever felt plain next to her or Sharon T. I don't think she was. But it may have contributed to any insecurities she had. Which in turn may have overvalued WF's attentions.
In 1968 I was seven years old and in love with the song "Love Is Blue". Our teenage neighbor came by at the end of the year, listening to his transistor radio tuned to KFRC I guess, and they were counting down the Top 100 songs of the year. They were almost to the number one song and I asked him what number Love Is Blue was and he dismissively/teasingly said "number 99". In my perhaps faulty memory "Love Is Blue" quickly came on at the number 3 position and I felt a little moral victory over the older jaded neighbor boy, haha. You weren't supposed to like easy listening music but a lot of people did. I agree with Torque about the wide variety of music at least in the top 40 in the late sixties, although I'm sure Grim is right about the development of different genres before that.
Mr. H:
In 1968 I was seven years old and in love with the song "Love Is Blue". Our teenage neighbor came by at the end of the year, listening to his transistor radio tuned to KFRC I guess, ...
KFRC? Hell no!
KRLA!!!
Emperor Hudson!
;^)
Mr Humphrat, Shoe: and can you dig, the Archies "Sugar Sugar" as number one song at the end of 1969 on Billboard?!
Noooooo!
Pure bubble gum!!!
Why did Abigail and Voytek continue to live at Cielo after Sharon came home from Europe?
CarolMR, the accepted thinking on their continued residing at Cielo was because Roman Polanski asked them to do so. Abigail and Voytek could then assist Sharon in whatever needs she may have, especially in her condition.
Might be that many of us on the blog have already seen this wonderful video already...but, if you haven't had the opportunity to check it out yet, I really recommend that you do.
Very interesting ties to Abigail, Sharon and, if memory serves, Witold K as well.
The three friends in the discussion on this lovely blog post/video
Cheers
D
https://youtu.be/Ix4N65177eg
I posted this interesting video up above as a reply but I will post the link here too. Many of you may have already seen it but if you haven't...I highly recommend you give it a viewing.
It is a great recollection of a (then) child and, the treasures he/his family received from both Abigail and Sharon. Witold K is also an integral part of the story.
https://youtu.be/Ix4N65177eg
Thanks, Torque.
Shoegazer, if it wasn't KFRC it probably would have been KYA. Was KRLA used for Once Upon A Time In Hollywood? The more I watched that movie the more I realized my favorite parts are mostly when Cliff is driving listening to the radio, because it really brings back the feeling of the era for me.
Torque, it's funny 'Sugar, Sugar' is the other music memory I have of that neighbor boy. He took me to his house to hear it-I hadn't heard it. He had me stick my head down in front of the speaker and put it on. It seemed like he thought it was pretty amazing. I was never as taken with it lol.
Doug thanks for that video link. It really was worth watching and finally gave me a personal story of Gibby as well as Sharon. It was great to hear of her warmth towards a child. It was also interesting to me that she primarily spoke in French with Voytek.
KYA was the SF station I listened to when my parents moved to Marin county in '64, Ed Hyder in particular. Prior to that I lived in the southern San Joaquin valley and KRLA you could just get sometimes. It was enough for me to hear Emperor Hudson's sign-off a few times...
"Clear the freeway, peasants! His Highness is going home!"
I'm thinking in OUATIH it was KHJ.
When I moved to LA in the 80s all I ever listened to was KLON jazz.
Oh, well!
Fun fact.
Handclaps on "Sugar, Sugar" performed by Ray 'The Streak' Stevens.
There were some good songs on AM by CCR, Blood Sweat and Tears, and Tommy James that year. Groups like Led Zeppelin, the Allman Brothers, and Chicago all released albums that weren’t geared for AM but found life on the emerging progressive FM stations.
Another popular AM song was sung by Bobby Sherman. “Little Woman” almost sounds like something Manson wrote”.
Hey Little Woman please make up your mind
You've got to come into my world
And leave your world behind
Na, na, na, na...
You got to come down from that cloud girl and Leave your world behind
TabOrFresca,
I think you are correct, the song sounds like something Manson wrote to me as well.
"Flat mate.".. Lol I see what you did there, Peter! "Greek System" may not exist in england; may be more context to milly s humorous statement
Hi Everyone. Boom Boom Peter. I love Greece. The only minor issue I have is putting used loo roll in the bin. x
Greek Plumbing System!
Glad you enjoyed the video. I felt it was a great remembrance as well. I also found it worth the time to watch it. Very interesting connections too!
Cheers
Tabofresca - Mario III commented a post or two back. He's entangled in his regular issues and has had some health problems. But he's still with us and thanks us all for asking.
Thanks Millie James
Tab. Thank you for caring about me
⬇️
"Hopefully Mario isn’t sick or deceased. Does anyone know?"
⬇️
And thank you Ms Milly James for letting Tab know👍👍👍
I still read this blog every day. Every once in a while something is said on this blog that is related to a Charles Manson Case situation that I'm very invested in.
It happened the other day with Ms Louise Labianca discussing Joe Dorgan.
I'm very happy to see that
Ms Louise Labianca is commenting on this blog. She's very respectful and courteous.
I would like to ask her if she has any photographs of Joe Dorgan, and see if they "match-up" with photographs that I have with some "group-photographs" that I have.
Also, DebS. So sorry for your loss of your husband. I hope you're doing ok🙏🙏🙏
Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case
Hello, thank you for your kind words re: "respectful and courteous". I mainly like to bring up little details that are not too well-known in hopes someone can put it together. I also have wondered most all my life if there was something more going on than the official HS theory. If so, I would like to know and I appreciate that there continues to be at least some maintained interest in the subject--don't give up! Thank you.
Unfortunately, I have no pics of Joe Dorgan and I barely remember what he looked like, except for for that one news photo that everyone has seen where Joe and Suzan are walking down the driveway at Waverly Dr.
Of course, it is difficult or basically impossible for me to be objective which is why I mainly try to point out little details that someone else can use for their further research. Does this detail matter? When I see that photo I wonder if that was the day Suzan grabbed her mom's jewelry and ended up with my grandfather's gold watch? Decades later, she was trying to contact my brother via email or something but he declined.
It was around 2011 that Suzan tried to contact us. Nothing since then.
Thank you Ms Louise for your comments.
By any chance, do you have the photo where
⬇️
"Joe and Suzan are walking down the driveway at
Waverly Dr"?
I've never seen that photo.
Thanks.
Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case
https://wgntv.com/news/los-angeles-home-where-manson-followers-killed-labianca-couple-sells-for-1-875-million/amp/
I see by the caption that the photo was taken Aug. 11, 1969. The incident I mentioned was a few weeks later. I'm still curious what she is carrying. Sad day.
Thanks for trying Ms Louise
(Photo of Joe Dorgan).
I believe that's Frankie Struthers with Suzan Laberge.
What is it that Suzan is carrying?
(Who knows🤷🤷🤷)
Mario George Nitrini 111
-----
The OJ Simpson Case
Frank was only 15 in 1969. The guy in the photo is older. Looked like Joe to me.🤔
Oh, ok. Thanks Ms Louise.
(Joe Dorgan).
From this blog
⬇️
https://www.mansonblog.com/2012/11/satans-slaves-motorcycle-club.html?m=1
I'll see if I can match-up the photo
(The Face)
you referenced with what I have.
Thanks
Mario George Nitrini 111
----
The OJ Simpson Case
Ok 🙂
The video in this post is a very nice tribute to Abigail Folger. I remember Love is Blue well from that era--Sugar Sugar by the Archies, too. I was at the height of my bubble gum stage that year -- sad but true. Beatles too--never could listen all the way through the White Album after the HS connections were made, even though some of my favorite Beatles songs like Back in the USSR are on there.
Short bit of an interview with Elaine Mayes about her adventures during the 1967/1968 time period.
Abigail Folger is mentioned about 1/3 into the interview as Mayes is discussing her experience at the 1967 Monterrey Pop Festival...
Of course, the poster from Monterrey Pop adorned the wall at 10050 Cielo Drive.
https://youtu.be/6sjz-1NdTpI?si=uLfYFkOGh5O7ZoxM
Great--thank you, DOUG!
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