Thursday, July 3, 2014

"Life After Manson" director talks about Krenwinkel



I know we have already covered the subject of the documentary "Life After Manson" that debuted at the 2014 Tribeca Film Festival, but I thought I would show you a short interview with the director Olivia Klaus. She speaks highly of Patricia Krenwinkel, and is of the opinion that it is time for her to be released. I respect her opinion, even though I don't share it, especially when she calls Patricia's imprisonment a "beautiful tragedy." She does what everyone else does.....blames Charlie. Of course, she does stress the fact that Pat takes full responsibility for her crimes too. Well, just watch:









148 comments:

equinox234 said...

Ann,

Thanks for this, I was wondering when there would be some publicity regarding the film.

My opinion is that those who participated in both nights shouldn't be allowed out because, after the first night, they saw the carnage that was involved and had the opportunity to stop at that point. Unfortunately, Linda Kasabian never did time for being present both nights. Indeed, Charlie's influence could be questioned because LK was only with the Family about a month, and so could not have been too influenced by the unique "Charlie bullshit" that he spouted.

Out of the remaining incarcerated, I can't see Pat or Tex ever being allowed to walk.

Matt said...

equinox, I'm looking forward to seeing this myself. There hasn't been anything TLB-related worth watching in well... since Ron Reagan's Manson interview.

AustinAnn74 said...

I know this young director became close with a lot of the women who are incarcerated at CIW, including Pat, but she doesn't seem to understand the magnitude of suffering that "Kreny's" victims endured. I mean, has she ever seen the way they left Abigail Folger's face? Pat Krenwinkel even stabbed the back of her head when she was chasing her. The mental terror alone that Abigail suffered is enough for a life sentence, and that's not including the extreme physical pain her murderers inflicted on her. Rosemary LaBianca too. Pat Krenwinkel is a senior citizen now who knits. She has been rehabilitated, but they aren't going to release an individual who terrorized, then murdered. It's not about rehabilitation. It's about punishing these creeps for what they did. They took lives, so they must pay the price by living in prison. I am sure Pat is a nice lady, but the crimes she committed will never be forgotten. Just an opinion.

Suze said...

When is this going to be available?

Max Frost said...

It's not about justice Ann. There are people who have committed far worse crimes and served far less time.

By law she should have been out already.

equinox234 said...

Hi Matt/Ann

As Suze asked, do any of you know when this is going to be shown?

I wonder what the purpose was in PK agreeing to be filmed? Is it help her at her next parole hearing? I seem to recall someone wanting to interview Bobby Beausoleil (I think it was Jeff Guinn) and was told it wasn't possible, because BB was involved in filming a documentary about his life behind bars. Perhaps this is an approach which is being recommended to them.

I got a headache listening to Olivia K in the interview - she kept repeating herself. I was browned off hearing that "Pat is an incredible woman"!! She emphasises that PK has no contact with Charlie, but doesn't seem to realise that prisoners are not allowed to contact each other.

I think the remaining Family members are desperate to get out while they are still mobile. If they released them in their 80's, it would be straight into an old folks' home!!!

Dilligaf said...

Max,

Could you educate me as to which law she should have been paroled already?

Dilligaf said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Max Frost said...

The law of equality.

I don't care one way or the other about these people but when we turn our backs and allow the "law" to treat certain individuals better or worse than others - because of class, connections, or stigma - we set a precedent and we lose.

These guys are political prisoners, period. If California applied the same guidelines to them that they do to other criminals in the system, they all would've been released a long time ago.

AustinAnn74 said...

I wasn't trying to have some sort of legal argument, SeƱor Don Max, I was just commenting on what my personal opinion is. I thought a political prisoner is someone imprisoned for their political beliefs. Perhaps I am wrong. . . .

Panamint Patty said...

Ann, a political prisoner may be imprisoned due to the beliefs of the captor.

Matt said...

They are political prisoners because politics (i.e. no Governor wants to be remembered for releasing them) prevents their release. I don't dispute that they are where they belong, I just think they are judged by a different standard.

chatsworth charlie said...

Exactly Matt, beacuse no matter what they have done in office (positive or otherwise) THAT is what they would ultimately be remembered for.

TomG said...

First of all, the Department of Corrections in anyone's state was not set up to be a nursing home. Correctional Officers are basically $22 an hour state employees about the same caliber, if you will forgive me, as postal workers. They are not nurses in an extended care facility.
While the average fox news watcher loves inhumane treatment for people who committed crimes when they were teenagers, it is not in your nation's interest to incarcerate senior citizens who have served their time.
Lastly, forgive me if I made some anti-american remarks in another post. I actually rooted for the USA in that epic game versus Belgium! But you lost that one also.

TomG said...

Can anyone name me a notorious American criminal who was ever released on parole after being a model inmate and had served a long sentence.
Arthur Bremer was one ( the dude who shot George Wallace ). That was a federal prison done on the downlow. Other than that, I can't think of anyone.

TomG said...

Where I live, the Mexicans do the landscaping, frame the new homes, cook the food and go to the Catholic Church. The East Europeans wait on the tables, make the sandwiches at the Deli, run the rides at the amusement parks. The Americans know the form to fill out for unemployment or disability. The older ones are drunk at the VFW by 3pm.

TomG said...

There are good Americans and I apologize if my posts are offensive, They are the best of the best.
There is the other half of Americans who are obese, lazy,low IQ, addicted, divorced, absent parent, proud(for who the fuck knows why), bald-headed, tattoed, unread, unpaid bills, ex-con, warrants, court appearances not honored, and generally unmannered and not very pleasant to be around.
Clean up your act and then you can come on Manson Blogs and pass judgements.

Panamint Patty said...

Now Tom, don't you go flattering us again...

TomG said...

I'm trying to be nice.

AustinAnn74 said...

Bald headed?

Dilligaf said...

Max,

The law of equality? There is no such thing. No two crimes are the same, the circumstances are not the same, and as such, punishment is not the same. Our parole system allows a more exact system to meet the specific crime, after the courts have utilized the legal guidelines specified by law. There are no politics involved here. Members of the parole board have served both Democratic and Republican Governors in the past Forty years, but the results have been the same, so exactly how is it political? Jerry Brown is going to ease into his re-election, he could parole any of the Family and not suffer much in the polls as a result, so why doesn't he do it? Simple, because the killers have not served an adequate amount of time equal to the brutality inflicted,

Tell me, exactly how many years is a life worth in prison? For the victim, it is an eternal sentence...

TomG said...


Why are American lives taken in California back in 1969 of more significance than those murdered in Viet Nam, Iraq or Afghanistan?

And why are you not demanding the same accountability for those who took lives unjustly under the guise of military intervention?

Are the lives of your own kind more valuable than the lives of those who are different than you?

Dilligaf said...

Tom,

Why are you talking apples and oranges? Unless you are referring to the hundreds of thousands murdered by the Vietnam Cong, Hussein's government, or the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. If you are going to try and call a spade a spade, make sure you look at the whole picture.

As far as anyone in the military taking a life unjustly according to the Rules of Military Justice, show me anywhere that I have tried to excuse it? If you operate outside the law, you pay the price, period. However, we are not talking about war time crimes, we are talking about the brutal murders of nine living civilians in Los Angeles over an approximate one month period. They were not in a war, try to stay on point. It really does help a conversation..

TomG said...

The last war America has ever won was against Japan. In which they dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, killing thousands of innocent citizens minding their own business.
But when they didn't surrender, you dropped an atomic bomb on Nagursaki, killing thousands of human beings who were like you and like me and were like anyone else who lived and loved and dream.
And you people discuss Van Houten and Krenwinkle serving 40 or 50 years in prison because they are evil.
Count me out. I hate my people.

Dilligaf said...

Far be for me to say you don't hate people. By the way, last I checked I was not born early enough to either serve in WWII, or serve as President to give the okay to drop a nuclear bomb to end a war. But hey, I guess rhetoric serves better than truth.

If you want to discuss the geopolitical aspects of WWII, go a head and start a separate topic, I would love to discuss it. But, if you do, make sure you include the inhumane acts by all participants, including the Japanese. Until then, let's remain on topic with your original comments.

Cielodrive.Com said...

Sorry, California does NOT parole people convicted of seven counts of First Degree Murder.

TomG said...

California can drop its debt ridden ass in the Pacific Ocean and do the whole world a favor.

TomG said...

If I got to stand in front of my God tonight and give an account of my own life, well,maybe I am as messed up as the next bird. Maybe I should have been better than this.
But goddamn it if they say a person in a third world country's life is not worth anything and a person in Beverly Hills is worth 40 or 50 or how ever many fucking years they think its worth.
I won't have it, I'll tell them they can go fuck themselves.And then if will be over. I'll be nice after that. Kind of.

Doc Sierra said...

Tom, you're wasting web space and your time. Shouldn't you be writing a manifesto instead of insulting us vets? From now on I'm skipping past your self righteous comments.....

Max Frost said...

Again, I see TomG as just making a statement. It's his delivery that comes off as self righteous.

Dilligaf, the law of equality I'm referring to is implied by the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence.

You know, those increasingly annoying documents that have been systematically shredded by the last two administrations.

These people we are talking about are without question forever attached to a stigma that was blown way out of proportion by the powers that be in order to end the entire '60s movement. They do not get "equal" consideration because of this. That's what makes it "political."

I'm not arguing for them. I'm arguing for equality. It's actually a joke that they are given parole hearings when all the hearing are, are charades - and costly ones at that. The board members know the outcome before they are even reminded of the hearings.

Max Frost said...

You sound like a lawyer, dilligaf.

Am I right?

chatsworth charlie said...

Max Frost said...It's actually a joke that they are given parole hearings when all the hearing are, are charades - and costly ones at that. The board members know the outcome before they are even reminded of the hearings.

BINGO!!!!!!

Dilligaf said...

Max,

I am now retired, but I spent 25 years in the D.A.'s office in one of California's larger counties. I have seen good and bad, guilty and innocent, justice and injustice. I have also seen how politics can impact both the law and the social impact because of those laws, but I have never seen politics impact one's parole. I have, however, seen society want tougher sentencing for crimes especially heinous. California is not as forgiving as it was in the '70's & early ''80's, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Max Frost said...

Interesting Dilligaf... I bet you could write a book about everything you've seen - lots and lots of stories I'm sure.

The term "Political Prisoner" is broader than solely pertaining to politics - particularly anything that falls into the left vs right paradigm (another charade of epic proportion).

There's probably a much better label more suited for the type of prisoners they are. It's almost Hollywood-like. They are not just another number in the CDC....they are "The Manson Family." They are far worse (in the minds of the status-quo) than any other killers guilty of similar, or even worse, crimes. I guess you could call it a phenomenon but it is not the only one.

And yet...most people don't even recognize their names. Try asking people on the street if they've ever heard of Charles Watson. They haven't. He should be a very well known mass murderer, but he isn't. Charles Manson is though - go figure.

HellzBellz said...

Hay TomG, there is truth in your words for sure !! have to ask what tattood has to do with it all.... EVERYONE is tatood nowadayz...Back in the dayz being Tatood actually meant something,....Now ,everybody is tatooed... Ha Ha Ha LOL..No man just kidding here.. I am not an american,never been to america,met some diff. american people but they were here on a vacation. So I cannot really Judge on USA and cityzens.I think its no different then wHat is going on World Wide,and to me here on the Blogg american people is Okay to Me and with Me..... OWWHHH and somethin else Tom...Lastly, forgive me if I made some anti-american remarks in another post. I actually rooted for the USA in that epic game versus Belgium! But you lost that one also.
BEWARE of the ORANGE-FORCE !!! Helter Skelter is comming down FAST !! and it will be in an ORANGE Soccer Outfit !!! HAHAHAhaha LOLLOL

HellzBellz said...

Max Frost sayz;

And yet...most people don't even recognize their names. Try asking people on the street if they've ever heard of Charles Watson. They haven't. He should be a very well known mass murderer, but he isn't. Charles Manson is though - go figure

That sayz it all. From my European point of view. Its hard for me discussing American Politics,Laws,and so. Not even to talk about WW2... We Europeans have a verry different view on WW2 as Americans. And btw, should I be proud to be a Dutch Guy ?? A Dutch Guy whoms Queen and the whole Royal Family fled to England ?? Leaving their own (the people) in complete chaos...Or should I be ashamed of that ?? No I am not ashamed of that,.....because I wasnt even BORN then. I am not proud either because of the ,Underground-Resistance,the Dutch putted up.... I wasnt BORN then.. Cant change nothing about that alll annyway. But what makes me MAD is : Nowadays the verry people who have re-builded our country, are punished now by theyr own gouvernement,our own gouvernment, Old Folks who deserve CARE from the ones who are ruling now !! The Old Folks made it possible to be what we are now, and the powers that be treat them like Sh#T.Greedy and SelFish people could study,and become presidents and Gouvernment people because of that Old Generation....... You see !? its the same World-Wide, not only in USA

AustinAnn74 said...

This is, by far the best comment I've read so far. Thank you for your service, Doc!!

Suze said...

I'm grateful to live in a country where we can have this conversation. In some places we'd have out tongues cut out.

Wow, I would have been the victim of an honor killing long ago! :)

AustinAnn74 said...

Right on, Suze!

Robert Hendrickson said...

WOW, we can finally have an intelligent discussion about MURDER and WAR. Michael - PLEASE join in. This blog is NOT about the "commentors" BUT about the "comments" and how they provide info/tainment for the READERs.

YES, Suze, we are free to say what we want AND the government is free to record and document what YOU and "especially MAX" say.

WRONG Tom, American prisons have already become the "nursing" HOMES for the elderly and the MENTALLY ILL. 60 minutes recently did an in-death program on the subject. Though the warden that exposed the TRUTH is probably fired by now.

General Westmoreland - supreme commander in Vietnam publicly and on film made the remark that these Asian people do NOT feel the same way about "family" as we Americans do (SEE documentary "Hearts and Minds."). So apparently it was OK to off-them. I know, in basic training, we were specifically "informed" that it was GOD's "will" that WE should KILL the little slant-eyed commie gooks.

The US soldiers who participated in the Ly Lai Massacre were later commended and given battle ribbions for their heroism. Unforntuantely, MY Lai was NOT the only massacre of Vietnamese men women and children.

BUT you can hardly BLAME the patriotic soldiers for the DEMANDED "body-count" coming from Washington DC where a REAL pscho named Lyndon Bains JOHNSON (LBJ) was CAUSING the deaths and destruction of so many human lives. HE was our Adolf Hitler and Vietnam was our Hollocaust.

The Vietnam WAR split the once great American Nation into and to this day is still mentally suffering from that effect. BUT we who served and are now simply called Vietnam Vetrans have tens of thousands of REAL brothers and a FAMILY that transends any and all biological connections.

I can walk down the street and spot a homeless brother simply by his age appearance.
I now have a full beard and long hair, so HE can spot me also.
I'm glad I don't have to buy birthday cards for ALL my brothers - I'd go broke !

Happy Fourth of July to all, even if you are not one of my brothers.

Dilligaf said...

Robert Hendrickson,

Welcome Home!

Robert Hendrickson said...

Thanks Dill, I needed that.

http://www.exclusivefilmnet.com/soldiers_story.htm

Doc Sierra said...

Your welcome Ann. It's something that I'm very proud of. I was a US Navy Corpsman (medic). I spent about half of my time with the USMC 1st MARDIV and 3RD MAW and whether our government and military leaders right or wrong in their policies and actions I'm very proud of that fact too.....

Matt said...

Thank you, RH. That was a great story.

To the veterans present, thank you for your service and happy 4th!

TomG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Panamint Patty said...

America the Beautiful babee!!! Happy 4th

HellzBellz said...

To Me the 4th of Juli is nothing more then a Movie. ,,Born on the 4th of Juli,, but I do know from the movie it means MUCH to many Americans. Wish them all a Good-Day !!

AustinAnn74 said...

Happy 4th to all! Be safe, please!!

TomG said...

Shout out to Big Patty. She's done 45 years and she keeps on keeping on,

sbuch113 said...

TomG asked if anyone can name a notorious American criminal released after serving a long sentence.
One....from California came to mind.

Jimmy Lee Smith (AKA Jimmy Youngblood)
Smith along with crime partner Gregory Ulas Powell kidnapped LAPD officers Ian Campbell and Karl Hettinger following a traffic stop.
After driving their captives from Los Angeles to a onion field near Bakersfield they shot and killed officer Campbell....Hettinger managed to escape.
Smith and Powell were quickly arrested.....Irving Kanarek became involved in the defense.
After a lengthy period of kanarek stalling the pair went to trial, were convicted and sentenced to death.

In 1972 their death sentences were overturned....along with all other California death row inmates.
Their sentences were reduced to life in prison with the chance for parole.

Jimmy Lee Smith made parole and was released in 1982.
He continued a life of petty crime.

The "Onion Field Killers" were very infamous in California.

A great book and movie by the same name " The Onion Field".

Dilligaf said...

Smith was a classic example how releasing someone on parole is not always the best decision. He was on parole when he and Powell committed the Onion Field kidnapping and murder. He was in and out of prison since hie release, dying in a California facility in 2007.

Powell remained in prison to his death. His parole was granted, overturned, then granted again by Rose Bird. After voters removed her and two other Supreme Court Justices, the new court rescinded her release order, as it should have. In this case, it could be argued that he release order from Rose Bird was political, based upon her attitudes towards incarceration, but the People wanted punishment, not politics.

Max Frost said...

Suze,

If you honestly think you are living in a country with freedom of speech, I'd encourage you to google the name BRANDON RAUB.

He is just one example.

Anyway, happy Independence Day everyone - may we find some, somewhere...

Matt said...

Dil, thank you for your expertise. It is very much appreciated.

Barrie said...

I support releasing Pat Krenwinkel at this point in her life. I have never done anything to actively help her, as I have for Leslie Van Houten though. I have been supporting Leslie's release since the 1990s and do all I can to help her. if It was up to me I would release Pat Krenwinkel though. I believe in second chances.

Max Frost said...

http://xrepublic.tv/node/9746

Max Frost said...

http://www.activistpost.com/2014/07/why-celebrating-independence-from-new.html?m=1

AustinAnn74 said...

I've noticed a lot of people on this blog are of the opinion that Leslie, and Pat are being held in prison, because of inequality, and political reasons, yet you don't read much about people wanting release for Tex. Why is that? Is he a political prisoner (in your opinion) too? You don't read much about Tex supporters. Even Rosemary LaBianca's daughter even disappeared from advocating for his release. I am just curious about why this is. I mean no disrespect, or am I trying to be a smart-ass. I'm just honestly curious.

TomG said...

Because, I think, Tex was the actual killer. He has an on/off switch that right now is off because he is a Christian.
The two girls were followers. Swept away in the insanity of youth, drugs and trying to be apart of something.
Belief and Belonging are essential to each of us, and how we are defined is usually determined by the outcome of our choices.

Max Frost said...

Great question Ann.

The way I see it, Tex is a mass murderer/serial killer. He should be as infamous as Richard Ramirez or Ted Bundy - hence the idea of him EVER getting out of prison would be ludicrous to even ponder. Definitely NOT a political prisoner.

He's lucky he managed, somehow (incredibly) to escape infamy.

Matt said...

Agreed, Max .

AustinAnn74 said...

I have always thought Tex had killed before meeting up with these people. I mean, a wig salesman? That is ridiculous. Suzan LaBerge, in my opinion knew him before the killings too. That was just too much of a coincidence.

TomG said...

Tex Watson is the whole deal if you want to get down to it. Charlie Manson lights up for the cameras and he probably influenced what happened that August weekend.
But in the end, Tex was the dude with the knife.

equinox234 said...

I can't see what possible good it does keeping Leslie Van Houten in prison. Her role at the La Biancas was lesser than the rest. Did she not have to be told by Tex to join in, and when she did her share of the stabbing, Mrs LB was already dead. LVH has paid a high price, and she seems to be completely rehabilitated. Her behaviour record in jail seems to be excellent. It seems to me to be a waste of US taxpayers' money keeping her incarcerated.

As for Tex, I read recently that he was the suspect in the killing of an elderly man in 1968, therefore, if that were true, he didn't need any encouragement from Charlie to kill. He would possibly be dangerous if released - it would just need the right circumstances for him to strike again, as he was the real serial killer in the Family.

Max Frost said...

And the gun

Doc Sierra said...

equinox234 said...

As for Tex, I read recently that he was the suspect in the killing of an elderly man in 1968
-------------------------------
Hi Equinox. Was the 1968 case in Olancha, CA? Can you please elaborate on the the case so we can research it?
Thanks

LuluLuv said...

Hi if my comment dont get deleted by the author, i just want to say i support the notion that Pat has been rehabbed and that this should be a very good film to watch. However I don't necessarily support her parole release simply because of the magnitude of her crime. More importantly I think Leslie Van Houten should definitely be paroled in fact she should have been paroled decades ago. The magnitude of her crimes were nothing compared to the others. It's a shame.

equinox234 said...

Hi Doc Sierra,

Yes, it is the 1968 murder of Karl Stubbs that I was reading about. Apparently, the killer was accompanied by two females who were laughing each time the killer kicked 80 year old Mr Stubbs in the head!! (could the girls have been Pat and Sadie??).

It was to Olancha that Tex fled with Diane Lake after TLB and thereby avoided the auto theft arrests a week after the killings.

Matt said...

LuluLuv,

You are referring to the Karl Stubbs murder. My opinion is that it was Tex, plus two Family women.

Matt said...

There are seven articles covered by the above link. To get a good feel, read all seven.

AustinAnn74 said...

I've never deleted anybody's comments since joining the Mansonblog.com team. Everyone is entitled to their opinions on this blog, including yourself. Thanks for the comments, LuluLuv....

Matt said...

Sorry I meant equinox, not LuluLuv.

Suze said...

Doc, judging by the description relayed from Stubbs to his neighbor it sounds like Katie & Sadie are fair guesses. It takes a cold-blooded, heartless bitch to laugh aloud while a defenseless senior is kicked to death by a psychopath!!!

Dilligaf said...

I just do not understand the argument that the girls were less of a killer than Tex. Dead is dead, and that is what the victims are. The law is pretty specific regarding the guilt of someone who accompanies others in the commission of a crime including murder. As some call for LVH's release because she did not really kill anyone, let's face, there are only two scenarios. Either, she delivered stab wounds to a live person, or she stabbed a person who had just died. Either one is an act of a violent and dangerous person, not of the mindset of someone whose existence is beneficial to a free and responsible society. To blame it all on Watson ignores the complicity, and viciousness, of either girl.

I would like someone to explain to me how you rehabilitate a murderer? Do you judge it based upon that they have not killed again, while locked up in a controlled environment? That is a pretty big leap of faith.

Lastly, those who favor the release of either girl, how much time is a human life worth? If any of the victims were you family, what do you believe is an appropriate amount of time to pay for involvement in brutal slayings. It is one thing to merely look at photo's, and read transcripts, heck, even watching video of a killer try to downplay theit responsibility. Visit a murder scene somtime, understand the brutality of the act, the destruction of a life, the damage to a body, the wiping out of a person's existence. The impact is severe, it is real, and it is forever...

DG Lane said...

I agree, Dill (love your name BTW). One should always put themselves in the shoes of the victim's family. Only then can you honestly answer "how long is long enough?".

However, getting back to the spirit of our July 4 discussion, politics has played a huge roll. The media (at the time controlled by "the greatest generation") was afraid and appalled by the protest movement. Manson gave it the fuel it needed to make the public fear *them* rather than the American wehrmacht. Modern gangbangers commit crimes just if not more heinous every day now. Many of them receive parole. If LVH cannot be approved for parole, then lets have a firm national LWP for all killers.

Dilligaf said...

DG,

In California, you are seeing more an d more sentences do LWOP, or lengthy LWP sentences with enhancements of using a gun, or gan-activity, which extends that LWP to what is essentially a true life sentence.

LVH, and all others currently incarcerated, are given parole hearings because that is the law. To change their sentences now would not pass either legal or Constitutional muster. Lastly, each state, again by
Constitutional design, creates it's own laws and punishments. There cannot be a universal nationwide punishment door crimes committed in an individual state, unless that crime was committed in, and adjudicated in a federal jurisdiction.

Dilligaf said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dilligaf said...

Should say gang-activity, not gan. Too much bourbon on the 4th?????

Doc Sierra said...

Hi Suze, I agree with you. Hopefully the Tex Tapes will shed some light on this.....

DG Lane said...

Thank you, Dill. That makes complete sense.

Barrie said...

Wow. It makes me angry that someone would say Leslie is the same as serial killer Tex Watson. Tex told her to "Do something". The whole Manson community was set up with the women as brainless servants to the men.
I go back and forth on Pat. She was a cold hearted bitch back in the day.
Leslie stabbed a dead person. She will never get out of jail because of the group she's associated with.

Barrie said...

The other women who were on death row at the same time as the Manson girls were released years ago. "How do you rehabilitate a murderer?" What kind of question is that? Steve Grogan hasn't been killing people. That guy needs to take some criminology classes. It's that type of stupidity that will keep Leslie in jail until she dies.

Matt said...

Barrie said...

The other women who were on death row at the same time as the Manson girls were released years ago.


Barrie, we have heard the same thing but we've only been able to name one of them. On that person we only have a name but it goes cold after that.

If you have info on those women we would be grateful to hear from you



Dilligaf said...

Barrie,

I would be happy to take some criminology classes, would you please be so kind as to recommend which ones I would benefit from?

As far as Grogan is concerned, I do not believe that he should have been released, but that was the parole board, and Gov. Brown who made that happen. Rather than saying it is wrong to keep LVH in prison, while another was let go, couldn't it just as easily be said that it was a mistake to have let Grogan out. The fact that he may have not killed anyone else does not mean that he learned to not ever kill anyone else, he already knew that was wrong. So if he already knew it was wrong, and has chose not to murder anyone else, exactly how was he rehabilitated? He wasn't, he only served some time for a killing.

As far as LVH, are you saying she is still associated with the Family, or did you mean that people still associate her with them? There is a difference. The PB, while aware of her prior association, makes their determination on LVH as an individual participant in those murders, for which she has not helped herself, as is evidenced in her testimony before multiple boards. If you have evidence that it is only her prior relationship with the Family that is keeping her incarcerated, I would be more than willing to consider such evidence.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Lt Cally - who directly ORDERED the My Lai Massacre was convicted and sentenced, BUT NIXON pardoned him.
POLITICAL decision ?

Patty Hearst was given a full pardon by I think Jimmy Carter. Any body know the final outcome of some of the Weathermen who were convicted of high crimes?

When you kill a cop, that is a direct assault on the people's government and can be interpreted as an act of domestic terrorism.

IF Stubbs was killed by anyone associated with the Family, without Manson's involvement, that could be a relevant game changer. So the question might be: Who would benefit POLITICALLY if it was learned that someone else was the actual "most dangerous man alive" ?

HellzBellz said...

EUHHHHH Off Topic a little.....WE ARE TROUGH !! Semy Finalszzzzzz!!!!!!!

Matt said...

Congats, Hans! LOL.

HellzBellz said...

Thankzz Matt !! BTW, did you see how many comments this ,,Krenwinkle,, Post gets ???? And where it is going....throughout the whole conversation....WOW !! love it !!

AustinAnn74 said...

Dilligaf, I am in agreement with your opinions on the subject matter. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

hippiekiller said...

Wow, so much ignorance about how our legal and penal system work. Thank you Dilligaf for your expertise. Anyway, the real question is: when will we be able to see this flick??

Max Frost said...

It's the other way around actually. So much disgust and disbelief about how our legal and penal system work.

The system itself is what's ignorant.

Panamint Patty said...

congrats Hans, so good to see you and I agree, this surned out to be a really really good post. Cheers!

equinox234 said...

If there is no hope of the "Manson killers" getting parole, does that not kind of make the parole hearings a farce? The ones who remain incarcerated have done 40+ years time, and I do appreciate that their victims cannot get out of their coffins.

Parole hearings and the run up to them must be very stressful for both inmate and the victim's familys. Added to that there is the time and effort of the Parole Board members themselves.

If there is no chance of certain murderers ever gaining parole due to the notoriety of their crimes, then it would make more sense for them to be sentenced to life without parole. It would save a lot of time, money and false hopes all round.

chatsworth charlie said...

equinox234 said..."life without parole"
That's what I have always thought,was that an option at the time they changed it from the death penalty?
Was everyone on death row automatically changed to life with chance of parole?

Robert Hendrickson said...

The "penal" system, which we are so proud of, simply because it is OUR American system, actually springs from OUR "peonage" system, which was derived from OUR "slavery" system of long ago.

When "slavery" was abolished the southerners needed a new system in which to obtain FREE labor.
Cleverly, they devised the "peonage" system which enabled the local sherriff / constable to go outside and pick any Negro on the street and say: YOU are "liable" for walking on the sidewalk with noisy shoes - and the penalty is $100 or three months of labor at Master Johnson's plantation. Mr. Johnson would, in turn, pay the Sherriff the $100 for three months of labor. AND everyone was happy - except the Negro.

Today, we have the traffic ticket SYSTEM, which is derived directly from the "peonage" system.

Ever heard of the "Chain-gangs" ? Well, as the system grew, the bigger governments realized they had an endless supply of FREE labor for building roads, BRIDGES, etc.

It worked GREAT, until the Supreme Court decided IT was unjust to arrest folks for FREE labor.

So NOW, folks are primarily arrested for non-violent crimes and sentenced to watching cable TV and FREE medical care. BUT many "peons" are thrilled, because THEY now make a good living OFF the new and improved "peonage" system.

AND governments have a valid reason for raising TAX / Money. Does it get any better than that - IF you are a government employee ?

What about IF you are that poor minority who just happens to get caught by a "red-light" camera in an LA bario - and must pay the local government $475. OH ! if you can't pay the $475, you must do "community service" like pulling weeds along side the freeway.

Actually the Jesuits, hundreds of years ago, used the FREE labor "penal" system on the Indians to build their missions in California. The Indian's crime(s) was they didn't worship Jesus.

The Catholic Church has used the "penance" system for hundreds of years. That's where you go confess your transgressions like "having the thought of pinging Ms Grabtree." The priest mercifully hands down a sentence of "mop the church floor for a week" and God will forgive you.

So how does keeping the "Manson Gang" locked-up serve the penal system ? That should be a NO-brainer.'

AustinAnn74 said...

Don't even get me started on the TRAFFIC TICKET SYSTEM! I busted out laughing when I went up to the municipal courthouse a few months ago, and saw an ATM machine in the building. Of course, I know people break the law, but the way they have it set up is ridiculous. It's extortion. If you don't have the money to pay the ticket, or defensive driving, you will not be able to renew your driver's license, but you need your license to drive to work, cash checks, etc. You will also have a warrant for your arrest. There was a man at the payment window screaming at the smug clerk behind the Plexiglass window. She was mouthing off, telling him "Well, if you don't have the money, you can always sit it out in jail for a week." She was an unbelievable bitch to that poor man. I felt so bad for him. They make it almost impossible to do the right thing. There is no way to fight the ticket, because the cop will show up in court, and the prosecutor always takes the word of a cop over the word of a citizen. It's a racket! Sorry, got off topic, but just thought I would put my opinion in......

Dilligaf said...

Ann,

You are dead on, it can be a racket, but more at the hands of our legislature than the courts, but the two are joined at the hip in many cases. When the "fees" are equal to, or greater than the fine itself, it becomes obvious that this is a shakedown equal to any organized crime effort today.

I have no sympathy for anyone who receives a ticket, for it is at their own hand that they earned that ticket, but many times the fines and fees appear more Draconian in nature as a means to generate revenue than it is to provide safer streets.

Dilligaf said...

Chatsworth,

When the California Supreme Court ruled in People v. Anderson that the DP was unconstitutional, it subsequently resulted in all sentences being commuted to Life with Parole. The voters then approved Prop 17 allowing for the DP again. Numerous court challenges ensued. Though upheld by the California Supreme Court almost seven years later, crime continued throughout that period with killers such as Edmund Kemper, for example, for which the DP was not an option.

Voters were not satisfied and demanded the legislature do something to protect society and punish offenders, so Life without Parole expanded in application. Now, we are beginning to see that it really does not mean what it is. As courts are now allowing juveniles sentenced to life to challenge their sentences, and true lifers are now being released because of prison overcrowding, you will now hear louder cries that even Life without is cruel and unusual punishment, and that it should be banned as well. The problem is, crime appears to have become more callous and violent, requiring appropriate punishment.

Robert Hendrickson said...

NO Ann - You are RIGHT-ON !!!!!! LEGAL penal Scams is the TOPIC

Doc: My father was a navel medic corman. He trained for 8 months in the San Diego Naval Hospital for the invasion of Japan. I had a long talk with a marine who fought at Okinawa and he told me the Japanese purposely targeted anything to do with medial help. As a consequence, Special medical ships were built - with armaments.


IF the atomic bomb was not dropped, I would never have known my father. He was one of the first to set foot on the bombed out Japan.

I personally consider anyone in the medical field to be a saint and military medics to be Saviors of the highest caliber. I don't know if medics are fearless, heroic or just plane crazy, BUT without them, this country would really be in a bad place.

Doc Sierra said...

Thanks for the kind words Robert.
At the beginning of WWII Corpsmen were called Pharmacists Mates. They wore a red cross on their helmets and on their sleeves. They had to stop doing this because the Japanese used the red crosses as bulls eyes.
Men like you and your father have paved the road towards a better future, whether you agree with the concept of war or not.....

chatsworth charlie said...

Thanks for the clarification Dilligaf.

La-de-la said...

This thread has been amazing to watch unfold. Thanks to all.

Patty, Max, Ann, et. al.--hats off.

Robert--my father is a physician who trained medics in Germany during the Vietnam War. From the stories he has told me, they were; d) all of the above.
I have really enjoyed your posts in this thread.

Doc--you crack me up. But on a more serious note, thanks to all who have served and those that supported them.

Dill- Rock on!

Doc Sierra said...

By the way robert, one of daughters was born in that WWII era Naval Hospital San Diego that's also known as Balboa Hospital. I did my infantry training at Camp Pendleton. I'll never forget Cardiac Hill and Mount Motherfucker at Camp Pendleton. Training to be with the USMC was by far the toughest physical test of my life
.

Max Frost said...

Dilligaf said:

"I have no sympathy for anyone who receives a ticket, for it is at their own hand that they earned that ticket, but many times the fines and fees appear more Draconian in nature as a means to generate revenue than it is to provide safer streets."
______________________________

You're right on about the draconian part, but saying you have no sympathy for anyone who receives a ticket implies that everyone who receives a ticket was, without question, absolutely 100% DESERVING of that ticket.

Nothing is that black & white. There are cops who harass, cops who abuse their power, cops who have their head up their ass and THINK they saw someone do something that they didn't actually do. There are also lazy cops who fill their quotas the easy way by grossly exaggerating or trumping up the charges, etc, etc, etc.

Not to mention absolutely ridiculous laws that have nothing to do with the golden rule (I.e., seat belt law), etc, etc, etc...

Dilligaf said...

Max,

While you might not like seat belt laws, if you know it is a law, but choose to not wear one, then you made a choice. The responsibility is all on you. Work to change the law, but accept what occurs until it does.

If you receive a fix-it ticket, then it is a very simple resolution, with little or no cost. However, I have also seen many people let off with a warning simply because they were polite and respectful to the officer. Everything we do has consequences, many times we determine whether those consequences are positive or negative by our actions. It is always easier to blame someone else for our mistakes, but ultimately it always falls back on us.

Max Frost said...

It doesn't always work like that dilligaf.

There are many, many undeserved, unjustified tickets issued to people all the time.

Those who "enforce" the law are just as flawed (and in many cases mentally ill) as the subjects they exercise their "enforcement" on.

Doc Sierra said...

I never got a ticket that I didn't earn. I've found that showing a little respect and being polite can get the cop to lean your way if it's a judgement call on their part. I have, however been arrested for something that I didn't do. That was back during my motorcycle club days. I was wearing my cut and being a smart ass but I still didn't deserve it. It was then that I learned that some prosecutors are more concerned with nailing someone to the wall than with seeing that justice is administered.....

Max Frost said...

Right Doc, and same with a lot of the cops. For the most part they are LOOKING for someone to nail rather than protecting and serving. There's still a lot of good cops out there but they are the minority these days.

Justice isn't about balance. If it were then the prisons would be about rehabilitation. But they aren't. They just make people harder and teach them how to be better criminals. Just look at the statistics of how many convicts return to prison in a short period of time.

You're lucky if you never got a ticket you didn't earn.

Dilligaf said...

I am not sure what balance is in regards to justice. Justice is not a numbers game in which you adjudicate purely on a win/loss column. Prisons are not about rehabilitation, they are about punishment first. Rehabilitation does little for murderers, rapists, child molestor's, drug traffickers, life time gang bangers, and many other criminals who choose to commit crimes. You cannot rehabilitate anyone who does not want to be rehabilitated, but you can remove them from inflicting more harm upon society while holding them responsible for their actions.

AustinAnn74 said...

I got a ticket for: driving home on the highway, stopped at the stop light at the intersection, and was pulled over for listening to Pink Floyd's song "Time" at a level unacceptable to the police officer. The cop with the flat top haircut told me I was breaking a noise ordinance in AUSTIN, which used to be the "live music capital of the world!" It was 8:00 at night. I fought the ticket, and won, but still had to pay the court costs.

Dilligaf said...

Ann,

I get it. I was once pulled over because I had The Doors Live In Boston cranked too high on my iPod. I understand that most of these ordinance's are a knee-jerk reaction to people having their bass too high so that in the next two cars you not only hear the crap, I mean, rap music, but you can feel it as well. There has to at least be an appearance of fairness else's being accused of profiling. BTW, I was let off with a warning after the officer observed my badge in my wallet, but, he was an idiot so I understand..

Max Frost said...

Dilligaf, that doesn't say much for all the non-violent drug offenders who are sent, undeservingly, to prison and become murderers in order to survive. As well as the wrongly convicted who also end up murdering in prison for the same reason. Prison isn't a place where people are simply being punished for their crimes. It is a HELL that the vast majority of Americans can't fathom nor are they even remotely aware of what goes on inside of them. And yes they are "crime factories" as Manson puts it.

That's what I mean by balance. It would be acceptable if someone was fairly sent to prison for their crime with a FAIR sentence (years) and was able to simply do their time and be released - hopefully having learned a lesson thereby forever abstaining from repeating their mistake. But for the most part it doesn't work like that.

There should be prisons that house only murderers and prisons that house only rapists and prisons that only house non-violent offenders, etc.. That would be one form of balance.

Instead we have a system where it's common, for example, to see a fairly innocent 18 year old white boy busted for selling LSD and thrown into the jungle with mixed races who, among them, are the most violent of violent offenders doing life with nothing more to lose.

Dilligaf said...

Max,

Perhaps you could enlighten me on how many non-violent drug offenders are currently in prison for such things as simple possession versus, say, trafficking, which is far more serious. Then, perhaps you can tell me how many become murderers as a result of being incarcerated for a simple drug possession. You paint with a very broad brush, my friend, but prison life, while dangerous is not what one see's on the screen.

People have choices to make, even in prison. One can take advantage of the recovery programs, as well as educational programs, or one can choose to continue to participate in criminal activity. Either way, it is a choice they make, similar to the choice they made that landed them in prison. It truly is that simple...

I get that you want to believe that the system is unfair, and that prisons are filled with innocent people. In fact, if you polled the inmates at any prison, the majority of them will tell you they are innocent. However, if you charge at windmills too long, your vision changes and you miss what is truly happening around you...

Doc Sierra said...

Back in the early 80s a friend of mine was doing 16 months for a drug charge. Being the new white guy from his county the shot caller ordered him to stab a snitch. If he didn't stab the snitch he would have been killed. He ended up doing a total of a little more than 9 years because of this. I've known this guy for many years and I know that he wouldn't lie about something like that.....

Max Frost said...

Dilligaf,

I didn't say prisons are "filled with innocent people." I said in so many words that there are, in fact, many people in prison for non-violent offenses and there are, in fact, many people in prison who were wrongly convicted and ARE innocent.

No I can't tell you the exact numbers of non-violent drug offenders in prison for simple possession. The numbers don't matter. The reality is that non-violent drug offenders have flooded the prison system thanks to Clinton's (the so-called "liberal") three strikes law. And because of mandatory minimums we have drug offenders serving 50 year sentences (again, as an example), significantly more time than seriously violent crimes - even murder.

Speaking of murder, no I can't tell you the numbers with regard to how many non-violent drug offenders (or innocent people) have become murderers in prison. Again, it is a reality and that's the problem.

And no I don't cite my impressions of prison based what I've seen in the movies. Prison life is something I've researched extensively over the years including talking to people who have done time.

And people in prison don't always have a choice as you put it. A lot of times the choice is simply kill or be killed. It's also not as easy as taking advantage of programs in order to better one's self for a crime free life. The mentality one has to adapt to in order to survive in prison runs very parallel to that of a criminal mind. You gotta play the game or you will definitely get played and eventually killed.

Of course they have a choice once they get released. I'm not arguing that choices people make land them in trouble. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with the degree of trouble a lot of them get into compared to the degree of the crime they committed. It also has nothing whatsoever to do with the many who were wrongly convicted and wrongly sentenced. Incidentally there have been several wrongly convicted, innocent people sentenced to death.

And you think I "want to believe the system is unfair"?

The system is extremely flawed and unfair and the proof is in all the true stories I (and who knows how many others) have come across.

Max Frost said...

Thanks for that input Doc - didn't see it until after I posted the above comment.

Just think of how many more people fell into the same trap your friend did...

Doc Sierra said...
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Doc Sierra said...

Max, I like your idea of having prisons where prisoners with like covictions are housed together. I've thought about this before. If nonviolent offenders were housed only with other nonviolent offenders my friend would probably not have a violent felony conviction.
Back in the 80s the liberal politicians had a reputation for being soft on crime. Being the good vote whores that they are they decided to be unreasonably tough on nonviolent crime so now we have thousands of prisoners serving sentences that do not fit the crime. For example, the teenager in Santa Cruz, CA that is doing a 50 year sentence for selling an LSD laced strawberry. Yes, they counted the weight of the strawberry with the weight of the LSD so he was convicted for being a major trafficker and sentenced to the mandatory minimum sentence at that time.....

Max Frost said...

Exactly Doc! And ironic you're citing someone with a 50 year sentence (a random example I used). Again, just think of how many more there are with similar situations.

Even more ironic I just noticed the latest post on the blog is titled "Prison Threats." Haven't read it yet.

Doc Sierra said...
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Doc Sierra said...

I screwed up. It was a 15 year sentence, not 50. Still excessive in my opinion.....

http://articles.latimes.com/1992-07-27/news/mn-4335_1_prison-term

AustinAnn74 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Max Frost said...

Oh well that changes everything Doc!

15 years is BARELY a punishment - I bet she compares it to summer camp!

Dilligaf said...

Doc,

Are you referring to the 1992 case of Levon Dumont? If so, he was arrested for 3 grams of LSD, as well as the blotter paper which was for the distribution of LSD. Never mind the fact that LSD is a Schedule 1 narcotic, or that he was prosecuted for a federal crime rather than a state crime, this was more than a simple possession. The devil is always in the details. Once again, Mr. Dumont was aware that the drug was illegal, made an effort to hide the drugs and paper from discovery, and as such, has little room to complain.

AustinAnn74 said...

So, now that we're on the subject of excessive sentences, etc., who thinks Bruce Davis might get a pass from Governor Brown's legal team this time around? Isn't it almost time for them to thumbs up or thumbs down? That must be torture for someone. You get your hopes up, and then constantly get let down.

Dilligaf said...

I think it is an even bet this time. The only risk Jerry Brown faces on this is that Californians are not too happy with the impact of Prop 109. They are seeing crime increase on the local level, parolee's not being monitored, and costs increase as lengthy prison sentences are now being paid for at the local level. The release of Davis could cause those already upset with Brown to use this as a rallying point. Though Brown has about a 25 point advantage over his opponent, it could cause the election to be closer than Brown would like. Brown is working on his legacy now, such a move could impact his re-election, which would cloud his legacy.

Robert Hendrickson said...

The problem is with the US Justice System - there are TWO - one for the fortunate (civil) and a separate one for the less-fortunate (criminal)

Leandro Andrade is serving 50 years for shopping a few VHS video cassettes from K-Mart and a week after the US Supreme Court up-held HIS mandatory 50 year sentence the same Supreme Court explained how IT cannot up-hold a 6 figure award against a large insurance company for DEFRAUDING an elderly couple. The Court reduced the award to only $10,000.

You SEE it's MONEY vs "the rest of us" BUT 'Money makes the world go round."

AND some of "US" eventually say: Let US out of YOUR cages or WE will fuck YOU back, BUT politicians and "law enforcement" love this SYSTEM, because IT gives THEM an excuse to raise taxes to hire more COPS.

Earlier I mentioned the "peonage system" derived after "slavery" was abolished. That's where the label "peon" comes from. When a "peon" sits by the roadside getting a traffic ticket, a limo flys by with the "Money" relaxing in the back seat. ONLY the "peon" driver is at risk of getting a ticket.

BUT when a rebel like me, who can practice the law, sues Mr. Money, he must spend his precious money (pay lawyers) to fight me UNTIL he realizes it is cheaper to slip the Judge some "big-ones" or pay ME my just reward.

LESSON: Only lawyers and Judges (who are lawyers) make out well in the Judicial System. It is THEIR "scam" BUT in a capitalist society everyone has got a scam - from the President in the "White House" to the beggar looking for a hand-out.

Remember: What Soccer Mom wants, Soccer Mom gets. It's as simple as wanting to pound the round peg in the round hole. Unfortunately, the Criminal mind is wired such that it keeps thinking that the square peg will somehow fit in the round hole - IF I just pound on it harder and long enough !!

Doc Sierra said...

Dilligaf, the fact remains that this kid who probably would have benefitted from probation was given an excessive sentence because of the weight of paper. I'm not OK with that.....

Dilligaf said...

Doc,

I get that you are not okay with that, but where do Federal Sentencing Guidelines call for probation for trafficking in a Schedule 1 drug AND the necessary blotter paper to facilitate drug trafficking? It doesn't. Whether this was the kid's first time trafficking or first time being caught, either way he knowingly engaged in an illegal activity. What he should have learned before his arrest was what the punishment for the crime. If you can't do the time,.....

Do you really believe that he would have no longer engaged in drug trafficking if all he received was probation? The odds are not in our favor that he would haved stopped.

Max Frost said...

Okay Dilligaf, does that seem fair to YOU?

Forget the (absolutely tyrannical draconian) laws. I'm just wondering if you personally think that is fair.

It's supposed to be a free country. The laws should reflect the golden rule and the will of the people. But they don't. Far from it.

So again, never mind all the black & white jargon that goes along with a ridiculously complex legal system. Let's keep it simple. Do you agree with these laws?

There's a reason it takes 10,000 pages to describe why it's illegal to run a red light or jaywalk - it's confused the average citizen to the point of giving up trying to ever understand the laws and how they work.

And who benefits from that?

Dilligaf said...

Yes, I think it is fair and necessary, just as I think both the sentences, and parole hearings, of all Manson Family members currently incarcerated, is fair and necessary. If you do not like a law, or believe that a law no longer meets the need of society, seek legislative change.

Golden Rule, Will of the People? Have you tried to get a consensus on anything lately? As society has grown, and society has become more self-centered and self-important, you find fewer and fewer people agreeing on much so how do you expect to have laws that everyone will agree on?

If a person does not understand either the danger or illegality of jaywalking or running a red light, then they should not be out without a helper, for they apparently have other issues.

AustinAnn74 said...

Dilligaf, what you say about society is so true. It is extremely seldom that people agree anymore. But, for the subject at hand, in my personal opinion, I do not think that any of the killers we have discussed should ever be free. What they did was atrocious, and I cannot imagine what the families of the victims feel whenever they read, or see people wanting their family member's murderers released. I know I am one of the few that thinks this way too. Well, there are a few more, but for the most part, people want freedom for them all, except for Tex. That is why I brought up Tex Watson earlier. People are so quick to say that the girls should be released, but nobody comes to Tex's defense. In this whole thing, everyone forgets the victims, and all the life they had left. Not just the Tate/LaBianca victims, but Gary Hinman, and Shorty Shea too. Shorty Shea's murder was probably just as vicious & bloody as all the other ones. Gary's was nightmarish too. Being held hostage to suffer with a face wound would of been torture for him. How scared the victims must of been. When I start thinking about how frightened the victims were before they were killed, it gives me goosebumps. I know I piss off a bunch of people when I say that, but that is what this blog is about. Different people's opinions. Now, I don't agree with you 100% on the municipal ticket thing, but that is okay. It's all about different opinions.

Max Frost said...

Check this out Dilligaf,

http://www.orrazz.com/2014/07/chong-ucsd-student-wins-41m-case.html?m=1

Your justice system at work.

The only thing fair about this is the guy sued and won.

Dilligaf said...

Max,

This illustrated that, indeed, the system did work. The plaintiff suffered a wrong, used the justice system for redress, and won his suit. That truly is a good thing.

But it also illustrates that it is our justice system, not just mine. Are you implying that you are not bound by the laws of your city, state, or country, and as such, do not recognize the authority of the justice system in our country?

Doc Sierra said...
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Doc Sierra said...

The system worked? Other than the money I don't see how. No amount of money could make up for what this kid went through. Judges, prosecutors, and law enforcement personnel need to be held personally liable for their actions. Until then US citizens will be subject to the abuses of power that are prevalent in our judicial systems.....

Max Frost said...

Well said Doc.

Dilligaf, it's a figure of speech. Yours, mine, ours...what's the difference?

I do not acknowledge laws that are totally unfair and unconstitutional. If I were sitting on a jury overlooking a case involving possession or possession with intent to sell, I would vote NOT GUILTY regardless of how well the prosecution proved it's case. I wouldn't go against what I believe in just to appease a prosecutor or judge simply because they keep repeating their "this is about the LAW" rhetoric. I would tell the judge and prosecutor to get a personality and a pulse, and talk to me about it then.

Are you joking when you say to seek change through the legislative process? We all know the phrase "you can't fight city hall." They don't care what we the people think. That's old news. It's gonna take a lot more than petitioning and being foolishly pragmatic in order to get real change - that's old news too.

Dilligaf said...

Doc,

By your analysis, then we should do away with civil courts completely for no amount of money can ever erase what harm, whether real or perceived, a person goes through. A civil judgement in which money is exchanged is the closest remedy to make a person whole that society has come up with. Are you saying that this person was not entitled to anything?

As far as what he went through, while it is unfortunate, there is no evidence that his ordeal was instigated by malice or intent of any type, rather a tragic misunderstanding in which miscommunication and understanding between law enforcement occurred. There was no evidence that his arrest was illegal, but part of an lawful investigation. That he was forgotten was a failure of the policies of the DEA, and he was compensated for that.

Max,

You are a bright guy, but I have no doubt that you could easily be dismissed before being chosen of a jury. The fact that you would choose to harm society in an attempt to "stick it to the man" is unfortunate. One can only hope that if you ever need to rely on the system as a result of being a victim, that you are not let down by such a person.

Yes, I am serious about changing laws through the legislative process. No one said it is easy, the the things worth fighting for rarely are. Yet, we see changes in law in every state, all of the time. Those who only sit and complain about the system without even trying to do anything are truly lazy, expecting others to do the work for them. You do not strike me as that type of person, so, if you see injustice, stand up and fight, you could be the one that makes a difference.

Doc Sierra said...

Thanks Max, I dig your style.
Dilligaf, I enjoy reading most of your posts. On this subject you seem to enjoy getting all attorney on people who don't agree with you. I never wrote or implied anything that your "analysis" of my post states. Money does help. We need civil courts.
By your analysis anyone who commits a crime without malice is not guilty. By your analysis a drunk driver that takes out a family is not guilty because he was just trying to have a good time.
I have a little bit of experience in the judicial system. About 10 years ago I was arrested for a felony I didn't commit. My public defender talked me into taking a plea down to a misdemeanor. I was so scared I took it. I regret it to this day. My public defender and I met with the prosecutor before court one morning. We showed him the evidence that I had nothing to with any crime. He said he would prosecute me anyway because he felt the case was winnable. Call me lazy if that helps you with your self righteous rant but with no legal education and not having a few million dollars to change the laws I don't know what you'd expect a lay person to do.
And you're right about one thing. Every time I've gone to jury duty I've been dismissed. I tell them the same thing every time. If you can prove the defendent is guilty I'll vote guilty. If you don't Ill vote not guilty. I'm just one of those people that are more interested in doing what's right than being right. To me it's on of the most important attributes I look for in a friend.....

Max Frost said...

Dilligaf, where in all that I said implies my actions would be motivated by the need to "stick it to the man"? That's a generalization on your part and I'm guessing it's because you are accustomed to marginalizing the opposition - hoping we all fit into one category.

I said I wouldn't go against what I believe in. And why should I? My thought would be "here's one for the people" as opposed to trying to teach any lessons to the machine. The machine is not teachable and you can't change things by attacking symptoms of the problem (that's what western medicine is for). In order for REAL change to occur, we must highlight the core of the problem(s) and fix it accordingly. By doing so we would make several changes across the board - the symptoms would no longer be present. And, yes, that's the angle I approach it from when I do the work I do FOR that change.

And how exactly am I harming society by not finding someone guilty of something that I don't consider a crime? The system is harming society far worse than any drug user or drug dealer. The user wants, the dealer provides. It's no different than a bar patron and a bartender. They provide a service. Period.

And don't say it's for the children. That's what they always say and it's rarely ever true. It's not a reason - it's an excuse.

In reality, this is how the system treats the children:

http://nwo-patriot-link-news.blogspot.com/2014/07/police-want-to-take-photo-of-sexting.html?m=1

And, again, it's just one example.

Dilligaf said...

Doc,

I wasn't getting all attorney on you, if that is such a thing. After 25 years, one develops a style. I do not agree with a lot of people, but I do listen to them, you are no different.

Your experience is unfortunate, I will guess you had a young deputy DA, they are the only ones that are worried about a win-loss ratio. It seems that your PD was inexperienced as well, for he could have escalated to the division head. I am truly sorry for you, there are abuses of power. I agree that it is as much about what was right, not who was right. With age comes wisdom.

Max,

Could you enlighten me on how LSD is harmless, or any drug of that matter? Regardless of the drug, there is always a victim, always violence somewhere. The only true victimless crime that I know of would be necrophelia.....

Max Frost said...

Dilligaf, how is there always a victim? Someone chooses to do a drug and does it and that's that. So how is there a victim? Things like LSD or marijuana or ecstasy don't induce violent behavior. More people become violent from alcohol than anything else that I've seen.

Incidentally, lightning is very dangerous but there is no way to outlaw that..,yet.

You can't force a society to be squeaky clean and perfect - it's unnatural. You can implement laws that reflect the golden rule, like I said. Don't hurt others (unless it's self defense). Don't steal. Etc., etc.. But you can NOT restrict people from doing whatever they want on their own time and in their own space as long as they aren't violating what I call "common sense laws." That is not freedom.

The ridiculous laws are not in place to protect people. Doctors kill more people than guns do but you don't hear any talk about banning doctors. Look at the number of cops killing citizens lately. Look at the statistics. They are winning the race on that front. Yet you don't hear any talk about banning cops. I know you are going take this 100% literally and say that I am suggesting ridiculous (Preposterous - as Bugliosi loved to say) ideas for a free society. I'm just saying LOOK at it...and tell me how these laws make any sense at all in the big picture. In most cities and states if a guy sits on a park bench and smokes a joint - with NOONE around - he will get arrested and ran through all the bullshit that comes with it. Never mind that he isn't harming anyone or even annoying anyone. Yet, try calling the cops (in L.A. For instance) about a group of dogs barking their heads off all night long, preventing neighbors from sleeping. They won't come. They are quick to pull over and chase down a jaywalker after he crosses a street with NO cars driving by. See what I mean?

By the way, thank you for recognizing that I would likely be dismissed from jury duty - I take that as a compliment from you.:)

Dilligaf said...

Max,

When you go into a home to find babies sitting in dirty diapers, having not eaten for a couple of days, trash and roaches everywhere because mom decided that a four day meth binge was more important than taking care of her children, do not tell me there are no victims. When a son bashes in the skull of his own elderly father because the father would not give his son money for drugs, and that old man dies from it, do not tell me there are no victims. These are real life cases, with real life victims. I lived these cases, save the rhetoric.

As far as the police go, isn't it funny that over three hundred million Americans manage to go about their lives each and every day not even encountering a cop, let alone being killed by one. You make it sound like cops are gunning down innocent people everyday, with rivers of blood flowing down the streets. Want to avoid being shot by a cop? 1) do not engage in illegal activity. 2) if confronted by law enforcement, follow their instructions. 3). Lose the attitude and do not threaten to harm them. Simple rules to follow.

Cops are not perfect. If they cross a line, they face charges and punishment as does anyone else. If they are acquitted by a jury, take that up with the jury, for obviously the people did not prove their case. You may not like the brutal truth of reality, but it is the truth nonetheless.

Max Frost said...

Dilligaf,

You just said "Want to avoid being shot by a cop?....Don't engage in illegal activity."

That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

Honestly, Dilligaf, it seems like cops are killing people every day - people who are NOT threatening their lives. It's not always by "gunning down" either. I don't know where you tune in or how often you tune in, but these days you really have to seek the news. It doesn't automatically and conveniently find it's way to you.

And it doesn't take meth or any other drug to compel an unfit mother to neglect her children. That's been happening for a long time - long before drugs became the problem they are today. Those are horrible scenarios you cited but those scenarios happen with or without illegal drugs being involved.

So let's talk about LEGAL drugs and how many hideous atrocities have been committed because the guilty party was on a prescription drug, or cocktail of prescription drugs, all prescribed by their doctor. Why aren't we locking up the CEO's of these pharmaceutical companies and doctors when they were fully aware of the potential side effects of the drugs beforehand, had seen cases where patients have reacted adversely to the drugs (suicide or murder), and yet they continued to prescribe the same drugs, leading to the same results?

"Cops are not perfect. If they cross a line, they face charges and punishment as does anyone else."

Are you sure about that?

Where have you been?

You're right. I don't like the brutal truth of reality. But I don't pretend it isn't happening either. Perhaps you don't like it any more than I do?

Max Frost said...

P.s. Here's an interesting footnote...

http://xrepublic.tv/node/9822

chatsworth charlie said...

Max, if those numbers are accurate, that's ASTOUNDING!

Dilligaf said...

Max,

I am not sure what your point is. Comparing policing policies from different countries, with different policies, different risks, and different social needs means nothing. If you are trying to say the police in the US are gun happy, that would be foolish as every department is autonomous and cannot simply be lumped together. Policies at one agency do not automatically apply for another. The only way to have consistent policies nationwide would be to have a national police force, and I know you do not want that.

Have you ever undergone combat training for weapons? Have you ever undergone even the simulators in which you learn how to react to a threat? Until you have, it is easy to say that every shooting is an overreaction. That is not to say that some officers may fire more rounds than were necessary, because that happens. But I do not want any officer to fire less than necessary. You use the appropriate level of force until a threat is neutralized. You do not shoot to wound if a wounded suspect could still be considered a threat to others around them. You use the force required.

I do not know why you perceive law enforcement as the enemy, but that is your prerogative. But here is the thing, regardless of what you may think of them, if you are ever in need of their help, a professional law enforcement officer will respond regardless of what you think.

Stan Thomas said...

Long time lurker. First time poster. I've been reading about this subject a lot lately, and your video, Max Frost, fits right in with what I've learned. Dilligaf, perhaps you are unaware of things currently happening here in our country, right under our eyes. I love this country, but hate some of the things that are going on. Now, back to the subject of Manson....

Doc Sierra said...

Dilligaf,
I have undergone training with military weapons and combat situations. I have been in combat.
I give credit where credit is due so hats off to you and your post.....