Monday, August 22, 2016

Blurred Lines - The Legacy of Charles Manson


"Look down at me and you see a fool. Look up at me and you see a God. Look straight at me and you see yourself"

        - Charles Manson

"Carve your name on hearts not tombstones. A legacy is etched into the minds of others, and the stories they share about you."

       - Shannon Adler 


Today I am floating off an island in the Southern Florida Keys, watching the sunset thinking about life and things like that. I am happily cruising along without much of a care in the world, and then a friend of mine walks over and asks me if I am still reading about Manson. I just laugh, and he knows the answer. He kinda shakes his head, and asks if I will ever outgrow it? As I sip on an icy cold Coors-light, I start wondering about that myself. How and when will this subject come to an end for me? As sure as the Sun is about to touch the water, Charlie is going to come to the final end of his trip. Most likely, sooner rather than later. It makes me start to wonder about what the final legacy of Charles Manson will ultimately be? I ask my friend what the name Manson means to him and he answers, "Crazy cult killer". I guess that is the answer most people give. But, to me it just does not tell the whole story. Manson will mean much more to that when all is said and done. All of a sudden, today as I watch the sunset over Key West, I feel the urge to reflect on what it all might mean when Charlie is no longer around to be the subject of our discussion.

First a quick look at who, and what, Charlie will leave behind.

ATWA: Star, and Greywolf and those who still fall under the category of Believers. ATWA warriors. These are the ones I am most curious about? What will a young lady like Star do with the rest of her life after Charlie is gone? Does she really spend the rest of her life talking about a Man she really only ever met behind bars as if he was an environmental savior? This group includes those who are later life friends of Manson. Confidants, and those who have corresponded through mail and calls over the years. How will they move on once their motivator and inspiration is no longer around giving them small pieces of soundbites, or a few sentences to unscramble for hidden meaning? In any case, there will be a Non-Profit Organization registered in California which Manson inspired, as well as many people who consider him a friend, who will carry on his name and causes.

 The Family: Secret network of remaining family members loyal to Charlie to this day. We do not need to go into names. Suffice to say, a few remain loyal to this day. A life of dedication to this man has been a long, and costly road. Some have made many sacrifices. Some have gone to great lengths to remain as close as possible, even after all of these years. They get very little back in return with the exception of a chance to communicate with Manson. What to do, when decisions about life can be made without the considerations of how it affects the relationship with a permanently incarcerated man. How are they going to handle the first few weeks, and months, in 50 some odd years without this man they have cared for this long? Charlie will leave behind some people who know him personally and care for him deeply.

The Children: From the ones we know exist to the ones who may exist, and including those such as Matthew Roberts who think they exist. There will be those who aspire to the gene and those in possession of the gene. His real children will be the real legacy of Charles Manson. In any case, I hope they all find some peace on their own terms. Its a tough legacy to live with. We all want to love our dads.

Media: For sure, there will be a renewed round of interest in Manson and the TLB case after Charlie passes on to teach the children in his next life. There are still to this day movies, TV specials, documentaries, and books being developed about Charlie and his Family. Does that ever end? Probably as not as long as the next group is still interested. That brings me to.....

The Curious: Us lol. The Bloggers,researchers, TLB'ers. The people all over the country who go to various websites and media outlets to study and learn about this Man and what his group of friends were into. Will the end of Charlie be the end of this community? Will we ever be satisfied that either we know all there is to know, or that the rest we will just never find out? Or does the lust for more go on forever? How long will the public interest in Manson continue after there is no more Manson? My guess is the public curiosity over those specific crimes will be another lasting legacy of Charles Manson.

The Name: The word Manson in itself is iconic. It is my guess for the rest of my living days, at least, people will never ask "Manson who?" The name is forever etched into the American psyche. Stories will get distorted, and legends will grow greater, with time. However, the Name Manson will forever be a one word symbol of Evil and Horror. 

The Music: Of course there are the albums (Family Jams and Lie being my favorites) Then there are the songs and covers. From the Lemonheads to GNR, bands have been covering Charlies songs for years. Never Learn Not Love, released by the Beach Boys, as we know, was a Manson original. Did you know the actor Crispin Glover ( "Back to the Future"- and he played Warhol in "The Doors" movie) once released an album in the 80's and covered "I'll never say never to always"? And of course, there are Trent Reznor and Marylin Manson- who in my opinion took it too far, but who have both earned my respect over the years nonetheless. Charlie's Musical legacy is quite interesting in itself.

The Legend: Part of the lasting legacy of Manson will be the stories of the Guru on the rock under the stars at night  preaching to his children, then leading them in music and song, only to culminate the night in fantastical drug fueled orgy's. Isn't that the mental image we all paint of the times around Spahn in the glory days? There will always be a segment of the public who remembers Charlie for the legendary tales of Sex, drugs, and Rock and roll. The peace and love element of the 60's in all its glory, before things took a turn in another direction.

The Betrayed:  Look. For the purpose of this post, I will not argue the motive. But, I have read, watched, or listened to almost all of the parole hearings for over 30 years. When Charlie goes, there will be a few people in the clink who will feel like they lost their life to a lie. I will also not argue if they have valid points or not. I read, watched, and heard them say it over and over. They feel humiliatingly duped. When Manson passes on, a few people will wonder how in the world they gave away all of these years for him. What will be the legacy of Charles Manson To Patricia Krenwinkle, Bruce Davis, or Leslie Van Houten? 

P.S.- I did not include Tex Watson. If not for Charlie it would be Tex, deservedly, who would have the life-long label of Maniac Killer. Tex is very fortunate that the world directs their hate and fear at Manson, because Tex scares me as much as any jackass walking the planet. He is the much worse maniac than Charlie in my opinion. Tex just was smart enough to close his mouth and clean up afterwards. 

The Questions: Unless Charlie has a come to Jesus moment, it seems he is not going to have that sit down conversation where he coherently lays out for us what really went down. Another of the great legacies Manson will leave behind is the unsolved questions. Are there any more bodies out in the desert? Why those two houses? Who else really was involved with the Family and what were the connections? Charlie will have the last laugh in the sense he will leave a lot of us all chasing his story for answers long after he is around to offer any.

The Destruction and Carnage: Sorry Charlie this comes with the baggage as well. Fair or not, deserved or not. This is not a debatable issue as far as legacy. You don't get to chose your own. You can help create it. Which is appropriate in this case, because Charlie did- at least- that. Manson will be remembered, as well, for the pain, and anguish and death brought upon quite a few people. Part of the Manson legacy will be fear and Evil. To many- this will be Manson's ultimate and lasting legacy.

So, there will be a few things Charlie leaves the world when he moves on to his next trip. The public fascination will most likely endure for some time. In the eyes of the public he will always be the ultimate boogeyman. Manson will be remembered by most for Helter Skelter. Thanks to a best selling book, and he and his "Families" willingness to act out exactly the type of sub-human behavior that book described, Charlie will go down in most minds a mind controlling guru of young hippies. Manson and crew put on a public show over the course of that trial which will never be forgotten by anyone who saw, read, or heard about it. Charlie can thank himself for his own public legacy. Fair or not, He gave the people all they needed to see, and believe, that every word Bugs told them must have been true. It will take a revelation of epic proportions to change the public perception of Charlie Manson. And, Charlie is probably the last person who can provide it, and does not seem interested in the slightest in doing so. Which means that once he is gone there will be no one left to change what is certainly the prevailing idea of most people in the public: Charles Manson is the face of Evil.


As to a final thought about what it all means to me....

Blurred lines. Cheesy pop song playing on the boat I'm floating on. Hey, I hang with all kinds of people lol. But, the title is very appropriate to me. This subject has blurred many lines for me. And as I sit here getting super close to hammered at sea, I can imagine Charlie using similar lyrics to lure his young loves in lol Dancing around them and singing...

If you can't hear, what I'm trying to say
If you can't read, from the same page
Maybe I'm going deaf
Maybe I'm going blind
Maybe I'm out of my mind
OK, now he was close
Tried to domesticate you
But you're an animal
Baby, it's in your nature
Just let me liberate you
You don't need no papers
That man is not your mate
And that's why I'm going to take you 

cause your a  Good girl....

Ok. I am really high lol What are you going to do????

I started studying this case as a hobby almost 10 years ago. It amazes me how far It has gone for me personally. I never thought that anyone would ever know who I am, let alone that someday I would be sitting side by side with people who sit side by side with Charlie Manson himself. At some point my personal line started to blur. Don't get me wrong. It has provided some thrills. I have met some great people along the way. I have seen some amazing places like Spahn and Barker Ranches. I walked to the gate at Cielo, and stood at the bottom of the driveway at Waverly. Ate a terrible burrito at El Coyote, but met some legends in the process. However, whereas I question the thinking of those who take their personal relationship with Manson too far, I have to ask myself when I have crossed my own personal line with the TLB case as well? When did the line between reading on internet about a subject, and getting personally involved get so blurry? Charlie and his "Family" are like that house on the other side of town where the "crazy" family lived my mom warned me to stay away from when I was a kid. Over the years, my curiosity kept making me inch closer and closer. Emboldened each time I take another step nearer to the fire without getting burned. At some point you either wind up getting caught up in the flames, or you go up in flames. But, you pay either way. Yet, I still keep pushing forward. Charlie both scares me, and makes me scared of myself. I never thought I could do some of the things I have done in the name of getting closer to all of this madness. But the line has blurred to me. And, I ponder, if Charlie has blurred the lines for me, what of those who have gone so much further, and gotten so much closer?

That leaves me with this: What will be the legacy of Charles Manson to me?

I guess that the closest to an answer I could offer is that the Legacy of Charles Manson to me will be The influence Charles Manson has had on the people around him. From those he met and stayed with through his life, to those he harmed, to those who sought him out after his imprisonment, to those of us who feel compelled to study him so closely to this day. Good, bad, or ugly, it seems that Charlie makes a strong impression on every path he crosses. He has been the cause for many people to blur the lines of good and bad, and right and wrong, for a variety of reasons and to different extremes. I wont deny- Charlie has a strange pull. I have no doubt as disgusted as he must be with the whole thing by this point, it still brings a smile to his face when he considers how so many people still scoot a little closer to listen, and hang on to, his latest words. He must get some small kick out of the fact that so many are still hoping he will finally say something to make no sense, turn into some kind of sense we can understand.

My guess he is will never give us that final peace/piece lol. I think when his time comes, he will simply, quietly, head off into the sunset leaving us to sort it out for ourselves. And although I am no fan of  Charlie Manson, I can certainly dig that....



- Your Favorite Saint







61 comments:

Farflung said...

It's difficult to identify what about the Family that resonates, with so many, and for so long.

The celebrity element is used, along with home invasion. John Lennon, and Rebecca Schaeffer were celebrities, and shot in front of their homes.

Both of their killers had a "hit list", carried copys of 'Catcher in the Rye' (what's up with that book?), and were influenced by music (The Beatles, and U2).

Hey future killers of Earth. There are no coded messages in songs. None. So save yourself a bunch of effort and just enjoy the melody.

If I was ever to see a colleague with 'Catcher in the Rye', I'm calling the cops. You can thank me later.

penny lane said...

Personally I find Charlie the least interesting.....Its all the supporting cast members that interest me..Jonestown and WACO are the same for me...I must read every little thing! .

candy and nuts said...

Great post St.��

Robert Hendrickson said...

Sorry SAINT, I gott'a say it: "Blured Lines"?? - Too many beer cans will do it every time !

That's WHY Charlie Manson BANNED "booze" from the Spahn Ranch. During the Vietnam WAR more folks were KILLED by drunk drivers in America than bullets KILLED U.S. soldiers in Vietnam.

I think Gypsy may have said it best: "So you can focus all your hate on that one awful man."

Cause when you can "focus" the lines are NOT blurred and that just may be: As Good As It Gets.

Like - when turds look like WORDS - you'e been educated.


MamaPoohBear said...

Great posting, Saint. I have to say...I always felt that, given a choice, I would rather be alone in a room with Manson than with Watson. Watson would kill me without remorse, then calmly leave the room and eat lunch. The worse Manson would do is bore me to death.

Dreath said...

Big thumbs up, Saint, made me think. Thanks.

PS: I still think you should upgrade your beer of choice ;-)

grimtraveller said...

candy and nuts said...

Great post St

I came, I saw, I concurred !

Farflung said...

Hey future killers of Earth. There are no coded messages in songs. None. So save yourself a bunch of effort and just enjoy the melody

Not even in the slightest bit true. There are literally tons of songs over the last 70 years that appear to say one thing but actually say something else. Writers put all kinds of private jokes and little digs and coded messages in their songs. Maybe not so much nowadays because since the the time when the Stranglers put "let me, let me fuck you fuck you, let me, let me fuck you fuck you" in "Bring on the nubiles" and Colour me Badd did "I want to sex you up" and there was almost zero outcry from the Mothers Brigade, writers have tended to be more upfront in what they want to say. But even the Spice Girls songs for the 11~14s market had coded messages about sex.
Writers had to code messages back in the day otherwise they wouldn't get their songs played. So they became really good at spinning words in ways that more or less forced listeners to have to "interpret."
Ironically, Paul McCartney, he of "Helter Skelter" infamy says so very clearly in his biography "Many years from now." He talks about how he and John Lennon would put in sly references to drugs that only their friends would pick up on. And not only them. So many writers of that period have admitted to that. Even the Osmonds had coded messages in some of their songs ! A couple of days ago I was listening to the superb "Defecting grey" by the Pretty Things from 1967 and I remembered the lyricist Phil May saying it was the first gay rock song. It would be hard to pick that up had he not said so.
I've long found it funny when certain artists complain about the way their songs were taken when they would encourage listeners to take what a lyric said in their own way.
But even on these pages, Robert codes quite a bit of what he says. If the melody is good, then that softens the blow !

MamaPoohBear said...

I always felt that, given a choice, I would rather be alone in a room with Manson than with Watson

I'd feel equally comfortable and uncomfortable with both, for different reasons.
But I'd talk them both to death !

Manson Mythos said...

The reaction from the general public will be the most predictable. For sure they'll be a lot of celebration from tabloid reading housewives and other miserable people who'll think the world got a little better now that a man who spent most of his life surrounded by four walls. If one thinks really thinks about the insanity of the world, prior to his release in '67 and after, Charles Manson is responsible for none of it, yet for some odd release he's considered, to quote Charlie Rose, "The stuff of a nation's nightmare". Yet he'll still be an acceptable punching bag long after his death. A person that Mr. and Mrs. Smith can project their own homicidal fantasies on and still be looked at as "good" people.

The most funny part is how these numbskulls are so hellbent on wanting to punish somebody, that they'll see dying of natural causes at the ripe age of 82+ as some sort of comeuppance. Even Susan Atkins dying of cancer was called Karma by some of these people, despite Doris Tate also dying of the same form.

Considering every week we get a new Manson fiction movie and he's even made it into American Horror Story, I suspect he might become the modern American Vlad Tepes. I wouldn't be surprised if he's battling Frankenstein or has the ability to fly soon.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Now, let's be honest GRIMM, if everyone had one of my Decoder Rings, I would simply sound like just another fool. As if we ALL had a six-pack, the SAINT would sound like the next messiah. BUT, at what point does somebody's "sense" finally make NO sense ?

When Donald Trump asked of the Black people: "What have you got to lose"? - without a business degree, most (like Hilary) would think he was being "ignorant," BUT that is simply a question one asks regarding a business "deal." IF I have NOTHING to lose, when making a "deal" I can ONLY benefit from the DEAL.

grimtraveller said...

St Circumstance said...

How and when will this subject come to an end for me?

Onye ma echi {who knows tomorrow} ?

For me, it's one of a number of subjects that I've found interesting over the years. Some have come and gone, others have been more lasting. I've found that many of the subjects that I've found interesting aren't really shared by the overwhelming majority of people I know or have known so it's been a groove to share & butt heads with, learn and debate with people that have a similar interest and their own particular and sometimes unique angles on this topic.
I suppose I could find forums that discuss particular artists or musical genres or wars or religion & spirituality or drugs or being forced to live in a country against your will or football or Liverpool FC or children's play and development or the other things I find interesting. But at this moment in time, none of those things grab me like what I sometimes refer to as "the whole saga." Not in terms of wanting to discuss and debate on a regular basis.
I will doubtless reach that point sooner or later where I will have gotten as far as I want to go in terms of the forum scheme of things. Whether that will be the day Charlie dies or the day before, who can say ? I have found that many of my lasting interests came about purely by accident and I have a fair sense of when something doesn't feel beneficial to be part of anymore. Not long before I came across the TLB blogs, I had spent 5 years on Homerecording.com and most of that time was great. Found it by accident, liked it and stayed. There were other recording forums but none of them had that indefinable something that made HR such a vibrant place to stay. But in the last 5 or so months, I found it had gotten so repetitive {a little repetition is consistency !} and so had I and I knew it was time to take a lengthy break, if not a forever one.
There is a lot to glean from this case but even something seemingly limitless has limits when it comes to discussing over the same ground.

grimtraveller said...

Manson Mythos said...

If one thinks really thinks about the insanity of the world, prior to his release in '67 and after, Charles Manson is responsible for none of it

I agree in terms of prior to '67. Subsequent to then, he's responsible for a small bit of it. As are you and I.

for some odd reason he's considered, to quote Charlie Rose, "The stuff of a nation's nightmare"

He's regarded that way because he had influence. When someone is able to influence someone else and are out of the controls of those that would kind of like to shut down thinking and dissent of any kind, then to some, the one inspiring the thinking and dissent becomes the stuff of nightmares. Well, somebody's nightmares. In some ways, he's like the equivalent of that sexually forward high school teacher {Miss, Ms, Mrs} that encourages one's teenage son to deviate from whatever he's been taught at home about saving himself for marriage.....

Farflung said...

It's difficult to identify what about the Family that resonates, with so many, and for so long

It is.
For me it's just such an interesting story. I find stories of murderers and murder interesting and in depth looks at how they hit the path they did fascinate me. But this particular one has so many tentacles and most of the tentacles are pretty deep and engaging in their own right. The saga also reaches into areas in which my life experience resonates fairly strongly. So I feel that certain insights I've gained make for a better understanding of the characters and situations they found themselves in than if I'd not had the experiences that gave rise to those insights.

St Circumstance said...

My guess is the public curiosity over those specific crimes will be another lasting legacy of Charles Manson

I wonder.
At the end of his book "Revolution in the head" the late Ian McDonald asks how the Beatles would be remembered by future generations. At the time he wrote the book {around 1994} we were still close enough to the 60s and 70s to feel the inferno of their influence over popular music, studio procedure and popular culture and for those like me who are still fascinated by all that stuff, the interest will probably go on ad infinitum. But in this internet age, I'm not so sure early teens now are that bothered. Some, yes. But cyberspace is flooded with so much information. The days when almost everyone was subject to the same information and news over the same time period have largely passed us by.
And in general, the documentaries and articles on TLB or Charles Manson have in general been pretty poor in my opinion. Poor from the point of view that there is a certain predictable, fact distorted quality to so much of what one finds. I wonder how much interest is really created by the kind of stuff we've facepalmed on occasion ? Those that actually seem to want to go deeper don't strike me as being that huge a number. It's probably a little different for those in America but there is something about the way news and fads move on that seriously make me wonder whether there is a lot of new curiosity about murders that happened in '69. Sometimes, to much of today's under 25s, the 60s and much of what went with it is like world war 1 was to me when I was a kid. A period that didn't really interest me in detail.
But who knows tomorrow ?

Dreath said...

Saint,

I think maybe part of the enduring presence of these crimes has less to do with 'our' collective interest in the crimes then simple timing. Had they occurred perhaps in 1989 they might not have such a hold on us.

We can all point to the errors in the 'official narrative', evidentiary problems that make us what to know what really happened and why. We see the 'home invasion' and the fact the media was, at the time, obsessed with these murders because they did involve 'celebrity' (except Garretson's Friend).

There is the horror of the crimes that is inescapable- some fought back and some ran- over 100 stab wounds. A friend of mine once compared this crime with the same impact "Jaws" had on the collective psyche- a monster bent on destroying us as people that has no emotion, no pity, no reason and no remorse.

But I think there is something else about these crimes. I think they lie between the assassination of JFK and Watergate. I think we lost a collective innocence with the Vietnam War, the assassination of RFK and MLK and all of that. I was struck by what someone else posted here (I'm sorry I can't remember who) about the opening sequences of the movie Woodstock showing a newspaper with this murders on the cover. There people fed each other and warned concert goers about the 'brown acid'. Five months later Hell's Angels killed someone at Altamont while the Stones played Sympathy for the Devil- billed as the west coast Woodstock.

The Weather Underground started blowing things up within a year. The Panthers were involved in shootouts. The National Guard in Ohio shot four people- at least one of which had nothing to do with any protest. And the dope went bad. While I was researching the Kasabian post I tried to find her San Francisco bust and found instead articles about Haight Ashbury being a dump and 'dealers' versus 'pushers' being murdered by organized crime sorts by 1968.

I believe it was Joan Didion who said Manson killed the 60's. I don't think he killed the sixties but I think he was the 'punctuation mark.' And I think that matters as to any legacy he might have.

I don't know about the rest of you but as long as I ignore the dumpster diving there is a sort of 'yearning' for the communal, 'check out from the rat race' aspects of The Family that then goes so very, very bad...when the dope went bad and killing- Helter Skelter replaced All You Need Is Love and I think Manson 'ruined it for everyone'- not that it was sustainable in the first place.

He's the cliff over which the idealism of the 60' ran like lemmings running to the sea- maybe that was inevitable, I don't know.

St Circumstance said...

Hey all lol. As always thanks for the comments so much!

I'm on my way back out of town for a wedding up in my hometown in NJ.

I'm not ignoring anyone if I can't answer.

I do like the Jaws comparison though. I really do

Thank you all and enjoy the final weeks of Summer :)

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

A large part of the fascination of the Tate-LaBianca murders is the picture frame in which they're set in. If they had in occurred in the 50's or 80's, they would not have the lasting impact in the psyche of America that they do. But they occurred in that fascinating little pocket of time known as the late 60's. It can easily be argued that these murders could only have happened during that time of social upheaval. Although I have little personal cognizance of those years (I was born in 1965), two things strike me about that time, at least in America .... 1. There were so many interesting things happening in so many areas, and 2. those years were UGLY. Rioting, political tension, racial tension, expanded drug use, a pronounced generation gap, a very divisive (and unnecessary) war. Manson was an opportunist in this way. If he had been a free man all during the 60's, he would have been just a regular freak, another street-corner oddball; but he was dropped into the pot full-boil. If Helter Skelter means unruliness, then he didn't need to start it, it was already there in the wind upon his final prison release on March 1967. The environment was ripe for somebody as lacking in conscience as he. People were available to be used, so he used them. It was easy. In that way, Charlie was certainly a man of his times; an ugly, dissatisfied person in an ugly, dissatisfied time.
There were many murders in California in 1969, many of them particularly gruesome, and they're largely forgotten. But read any book written by someone living in L.A. during that time, and the TLB murders always get mentioned. Everyone seems to have the same Joan Dideon viewpoint. Those murders crossed every line imaginable; rich, poor, young, old ... everyone took notice, everyone had some skin in the game. When reading the books, I always have in the back of my mind Susan's quote "we wanted to commit a crime people would have to take notice of". If Charlie and the Family failed at all else, they undoubtedly got that one thing right.
I think only us few weirdos care about the real details of this case. Everyone else has their Cole's Notes version of the story that they are comfortable with and can explain in 60 seconds. Nice and perfunctory, like most people prefer things to be. But the true story has faded into the dust, and I don't believe the death of Charlie changes that in any way. Charlie and his crimes will someday be nothing but a historical footnote, but that will take more time. In the meantime, I would much prefer that people step back from the actual crimes and take a practical look at what Charlie really represents as a person. He's a hateful creep. Anti-social. Good for nothing. Whether one is fascinated by the murders themselves, one cannot be fascinated by Charlie himself. He's boring. He's not interesting because hate is not interesting. Of all the people in all sides of this story, Charlie is the least-interesting. Charlie has his mantle as America's Most Evil Man, and he alternately yawns and revels in that role. But it's all he has, so he toys with it .... and us. But 50 years of the same old thing is boring. Charlie could get interesting to me real quick by coming clean, but he doesn't have the guts. For a guy who preached life and death were the same thing, he seems proud of himself for clinging to life the way he has. Or as he told Tom Snyder in 1981 "I'm still alive". His life matters, but only his life. Hypocrite. Phoney. False prophet. Conman. The attempt to turn Charlie into a folk hero has come and gone, and now an old man's death is all that remains. I'm good with that. I don't sit around thinking about whether Charlie is or not. I don't really care, except for the fact that world will be a better place on that day.

Manson Mythos said...

Blaming Manson for the death of the 60's is the biggest crock. What did he end, exactly? All the peace and the love? It seems to be that was dead just as quick as it began. Height Ashbury was such a degenerate shithole by '68 even he split the scene.

The Diggers in '67 held a mock funeral for the hippie movement. Watch the documentary called "The Hippie Revolt". There are fliers on the wall in the Diggers office like "How to Avoid a Gang Bang". Yet, according to everyone it was Charlie who "perverted" the kids and "turned them on" with sex and broke down their moral inhibitions. Sorry, but it was he who walked into a world that was in the worst state of moral decay imaginable and I think we can easily say the 60s were his downfall, not the other way around.

It appears the only people who blamed Charlie for the death of the 60s were idealistic hippies like Ed Sanders who needed something to point the finger at when their movement and silly ideas turned out to be disastrous failures.

Manson Mythos said...

@Zelda. How will the world be a "better" place without Manson? Because he is causing all the war, social unrest, terrorism, poverty? Stop talking out of your ass.

BTW, Joan Didion also said:

"I remember that no one was surprised."

Sam Smith said...

Years after his death Charlie will return to earth to judge the living and the dead.

Farflung said...

I suppose the hidden message in music is best characterized by James Vance, and Judas Priest.

Just search that name if your nightmares need some fodder.

Two youths from Reno (naturally), got boozed up and heard some coded lyrics, commanding them to commit suicide. One of them experienced much success, while the other survived, and morphed into a morose muppet. Astonishingly, this led to a six week trial, Judas Priest was found not culpable.

Do coded messages work? If they did I would expect the IRS to assemble a band, and sing about the virtues of paying taxes. The CIA could write about watching that commie neighbor, and the FBI could follow through with a tune about reporting that person next door. But they don't, presumably because it doesn't work.

AustinAnn74 said...

Saint, what an interesting post!

Robert Hendrickson said...

Well SAINT, you did it again. And YOUR special talent seems to be that YOU can easily stimulate others to join in YOUR "discussion." IF the name Charles Manson helped to bring that about, maybe that is a GOOD thing and maybe that is WHY all those innocent VICTIMS had to die.

AND maybe some have to parish in order for others to LEARN what life is all about. Because LEARNING about LIFE (the good, the bad and the ugly) is what provides for the continued existence of MAN and WOMEN on this planet.

The "MANSON Family story" is but a vehicle for mental travelers to cover MORE informative ground.

THINK of the "world's information" as being buried in a vast million square mile desert. Would YOU prefer to cross that desert in a 'land rover' by 'foot' or not cross it at all? ALL the visible footprints vanish with the latest WIND, but the tire tracks, eventually pound a PATH into the ground that can be seem via infra-red satellite images for thousands of years LATER.

BTW: Did you ever THINK of the ONE word "Communist" as holding the common KEY to unlocking BOTH the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the Vietnam WAR ?

ALSO: FARFLUNG - NO subliminal 'government' messages in music - how about "Onward Christian Soldiers Marching off to WAR"?

Robert Hendrickson said...

OH, BTW: In 1947 9 foot tall skeletons were found in tunnels and caves UNDER Death Valley's desert floor.

orwhut said...

Robert Hendrickson said... OH, BTW: In 1947 9 foot tall skeletons were found in tunnels and caves UNDER Death Valley's desert floor.

Tell us more, Robert. Did they suffer from acromegaly?

orwhut said...

Robert,
You got me. This discovery seems to have come out on April 1, 1947.
http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2012/03/the-death-valley-giants/

Robert Hendrickson said...

Damn it ORWHUT: Turn that Decoder Ring OFF!

And GRIMM, you keep quiet about what TJ said concerning the people who lived UNDER Death Valley.

It's so much MORE fun to THINK Charlie was scary Crazy.

Manson Mythos said...

If one thinks about, Charlie has been technically dead for almost 50 years now inside a concret tomb with minimal contact with the outside world. But he, or rather the DA's creation of him has been kept alive and will continue to be kept alive.

What is striking is that the average moron, some of who only watched a few sensationalist 30 min. TV specials on him, will tell you what he is all about, what he believes, etc. based on a few out of context edited clips.

As for his "influence", what has he influenced anybody to do since his incarceration? Most of those who come as close to "follower" as you can get are largely environmentalist. While there is an underlying sense of misanthropy behind it (how they there not be?), If Charlie has inspired a handful of people to even recycle cans more and installed a consciousness about pollution, there he did something good. Far more than the people still profiting from the corpse of Sharon Tate.

It's interesting that they project onto him a person who others follower, while dwelling on death, gore, murder, etc. while refusing him a voice. Yet all he's done since is tell people to stop polluting. While also presenting the public with the falsehood that there is still a "Manson Family" out there ready and willing to murder for him as evident by teens in Manson shirts, teens who only know the myth they create. It's like they desperately want that to be reality. I guess because butchered pregnant woman make people a lot of money. I suspect a guy like Kay would rather see more murder in the world than efforts to stop pollution, because the latter doesn't put food on his table.

Bobby said...

a secret 5000-years-old underground city hidden beneath Death Valley,


So much for that secret.

Bobby said...

Manson Mythos said...

while refusing him a voice.

I like some of your points knowing full well that you tread dangerously close to offending liberal thinking folks.

I have to disagree with you that CM has been refused a voice. I think he has rather chosen to use his opportunities to further confuse the situation.

the examples are numerous. It's kind of like he is running for political a political office.

Manson Mythos said...

Well liberal thinking folks aren't very liberal thinking when they're so mentally enslaved and afraid othat they parrot the most safe, PC opinions without any deep thought, logic or reason. That's a robot.

Manson has been banned from giving TV interviews ever since the Dianne Sawyer one, which was a feminist propaganda piece by the way and it's proven as such since the girls received questionnaires about their thoughts on "women's liberation".

When anyone can make a movie, TV show, write a book, etc. and say anything they wish and not even have to ask your permission, you're denied a voice. When everything you say is subjected to the cutting room. you're denied a voice. When what you really believe is is dismissed as being a con game and then they go on to explain what you are (usually a racist, misogynist, psychopath with a lust for blood), you are denied a voice.

It's a common tactic. Bugliosi used it, Jeff Guinn used it when he said Charlie everything, he's a con man who can not be trusted about anything. Discredit, malign and paint somebody as the worst thing possible. Therefor program everyone's mind to not believe or even care to listen to a word they say, while they buy everything you say hook, line and sinker. A tactic often used by Marxists.

joseph esposito said...

Saint...you could be a prosecutor & Manson Mythos...you could be a defense lawyer, not to insult you Manson Mythos, as "The law is an ass" and "You can indict a ham sandwich" Manson Mythos, your thought process is very Kosher, although some might see you as a ham sandwich. I sense you are a powerful MAN, as you have more complexity & compassion in your 'understanding' than most, and you are keenly aware of the PC/Feminist agenda to indict the white European MALE. The Marxist tactics used by Bugliosi, Jeff Guinn, Charlie Rose, Geraldo, and Diane Sawyer, to malign Manson, are the very same tactics being used by the media to malign Donald Trump... Notice he BEAT 17 candidates to become the nominee, Hillary couldn't even beat ONE...yet the media wants to brainwash us into thinking he's incompetent. The Diane Sawyer's of the media have met their match with Donald Trump. I will forever be in debt to Charles Manson for the way he handled that bitch. I think she suffered a 50 shades of grey moment when he called her 'wo=MAN' just like Megan Kelly did when Donald Trump told her she's on her period. Right you are Manson Mythos...DONALD TRUMP our NEXT President 2016!

Dreath said...

MM: May I assume your comment that 'Marxists' use this tactic: 'maligning a target to silence their opinions' is simply a comment that 'Marxists' also use that tactic an not a suggestion that they have a monopoly on this strategy.

This form of 'propaganda' has a long history. It has been used by politicians, lawyers and even advertisers for ages. It was in recent times perfected by Joseph Goebbels and his boss to not only silence 'opposition' but convince an otherwise civilized nation to exterminate millions because not only were their opinions irrelevant due to the descriptions applied to them (one or more versions of a colored triangle) but also carried the concept one step further: their very existence was irrelevant.

It was used again during the McCarthy hearings to brand individuals as 'communists' and silence their dissent. One need only listen to Nixon's tapes and hear our President and his advisors suggesting ways to silence opposition by suggesting they were mentally ill or homosexual. Indications of this same tactic appear in the response to the few who opposed the latest invasion of Iraq by another 'conservative' administration.

While I could only be described as a 'liberal' on certain issues that guarantee the individual their freedoms, I have been referred to by my friends as a 'conservative' on issues like fiscal policy and foreign policy (assuming we actually don't start wars we can't win and actually allow our military to fight them). And as a member of the nation's most beloved profession I can assure you I am no Marxist (although I admit not knowing any 'Marxists' since college). That said.....

Your own posts here tend to suggest to my review that the opinion of any 'lefty', 'liberal' 'communist, 'Democrat' or 'Marxist' is not worthy of consideration.

I may not understand what you are trying to convey but, to me you tend to discredit, malign and paint them as the worst things possible. And as a result your comments could be seen as an attempt to program others to at least not believe or, at a minimum, not even care to listen to a word they say. Should I assume, by this approach that you hope others will accept everything you say 'hook, line and sinker'?

Perhaps I have misunderstood, if so, I apologize.


joseph esposito said...

@Dreath, stop talking like a lawyer, and start talking like a MAN.

@Dreath, Marxism was invented by Karl Marx.

@Dreath, McCarthy targeted actual communists.

@Dreath, remember the Rosenbergs.

Unknown said...

WHY do I have to scroll through numerous trump ads on this site?

Manson Mythos said...

Does anybody really consider the opinions of others, especially those in opposition to be worthy of consideration? Outside of a public setting? The left is silly. They think with emotions rather than their heads and tend to avoid reality in favor of idealism and they are far more unwilling to consider hearing anything. This is why shutting down public events, leading boycotts and drowning out the voices of smart people with megaphones is a common thing with them.

Though it should be said, there is a bit of a misunderstanding of me. Like Manson himself, I do not fit neatly into either box (republican or democrat). I'm "liberal" about somethings and to the far right of Atilla the Hun.

I'm smart enough to know when it comes to the defense of Charles Manson, most of society will not accept anything I say hook, line and sinker and trying to change the minds of people that really don't have one is something I realize is futile. I am however convinced that there are certain aspects of the case and the way it was handled that should be questionable to anyone with at least half a brain.

Manson Mythos said...

Charles Manson, the differences between the left and right:

The Right: Charles Manson was a leftist hippie freak who tried to start a race war so BLACKS would attack white people.

The left: Charles Manson was a racist hetrosexual white male who tried to star a race wars so WHITES would attack black people.

Jenn said...

Robert wrote:

"ALSO: FARFLUNG - NO subliminal 'government' messages in music - how about "Onward Christian Soldiers Marching off to WAR"?"

Composed by Brits, FYI.

Manson Mythos said...

What is interesting, is that Bugliosi spoke a great deal about Manson hearing messages in the white album. In re-reading Helter Skelter, Bugliosi took Manson's music to a "folk music expirt" who said there were a violence, hostile undertone to it rare of folk music and Bugliosi always said his music had references to death, murder, etc....yet I never heard anything like that.

Manson Mythos said...

In order to properly discuss music and subliminal and overt messages it puts out, one has to break the music down and determine if art imitates life or vise versa.

I would say in the case of the Beatles, the art was imitating life and I think that was always the case. As best exemplified by what he himself said.

Each time he went got out of prison, the music of the time was faster and crazier. He even said he ran out of a Grateful Dead show as it was so overwhelming.

But Charlie has always said he "lived in music". With that and based on his court room testimony, perhaps Charlie does believe life is a reflection of music in some way.

Farflung said...

I should have said that any coded message typically lacks efficacy. How are those peace songs working out?

A Noble Prize would be a shoe in for the person who crafts a song, with a subliminal message for ISIS to lay down their arms, allow women full participation in society, and allw girls to enter puberty before you marry them. Now you can observe the power of fourth party, non diction, communication via music. Good luck to you all.

The human will is difficult to change, no matter how patently stoopid something may be. I have a savant gift of being able to read the word STOP, in any language. Yep, just show me a road sign, octagonal, and red; then I can translate the word(s) within.

Of course making a red octogon, the global de facto symbol for STOP, is somehow too simple. Let's complicate things for the literate driver, and publish about 100 variants of the word.

penny lane said...

Just shut up now ..im sick of scrolling thru your disgusting bile.!. oh and by the you are a DICK!

Robert Hendrickson said...

OMG, just LOOK at the significant INFO coming out NOW.

The "Brits" have been invading and taking over "our MINDS" with subliminal images for hundreds of years OR have WE been 'stealing' THEIR wealth of knowledge FOREVER ?

That is the question - whether the "liberal" is stealing ideas from the "conservatives" and then brainwashing the conservatives with HIS new and improved IDEAS, or whether the "conservatives" are subliminally implanting "racist" ideas in the minds of liberals, knowing full well, the liberals will convert those racist ideas into "radical" ideas and then shove them back down the throats of the conservatives. OR is it the other way around ?

Thanks JENN: Now "I" understand that the British Beatles actually did subliminally implant the idea of a Black and White race WAR in THEIR Helter Skelter song and THEN Charles Manson did "improve" upon THEIR "message" with clarifications like "The Black Muslims will WIN the WAR (Final Conflict)"

BTW: The world has ALWAYS been running on "subliminal" imagery and MUSIC has always been a relevant vehicle carrying the "message" of creative minds to the masses for CONTROL and sometimes just for the FUN of it.

Thank GOD for creating judicial geniuses like Vincent Bugliosi to interpret those MESSAGES for US - otherwise WE would likely to be still living in trees.

Dreath said...

MM said: "I am however convinced that there are certain aspects of the case and the way it was handled that should be questionable to anyone ****."

There is common ground between us. In my opinion, however, the 'handling' of the case had less to do with prosecution 'improprieties' then with the 'non-dream team' who represented the defendants, their lack of resources, the antics of the defendants and Kanarek's endless objections.

Bugliosi's pitch that he pulled off a miracle is in my opinion certainly debatable. I for one certainly think he 'out lawyered' his opposition but I also think that his case was not that difficult once he had Kasabian's testimony. The minute Manson climbs into the car the second night with the murderers from the first night he walks himself into prison. She puts him there.

RH said: "The world has ALWAYS been running on "subliminal" imagery and MUSIC has always been a relevant vehicle carrying the "message" of creative minds to the masses for CONTROL and sometimes just for the FUN of it."

One of my personal favorites in the 'just for fun' category is the Rolling Stones song "Something Happened To Me Yesterday" on Between the Buttons, 1967.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

@Zelda. How will the world be a "better" place without Manson? Because he is causing all the war, social unrest, terrorism, poverty? Stop talking out of your ass.
Wow, I sure got told(!)
Look, Manson, for all his other improprieties, is an identifiable source of hatred. At least 9 individuals died a horrific death in which he has no shortage of culpability. You know hatred? It's the place where nothing good comes from. Every one of his ilk can walk the plank for all I care. They're unnecessary; he's unnecessary. Yeah, when he's gone the world will be a better place.
And my bottle of 44 year old (and counting)Gledfiddich single mart gets cracked that day. Join me for a blast, MM?

Panamint Patty said...

Woot!

Manson Mythos said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Manson Mythos said...

I couldn't think of a more appropriate topic to post this.

Text by Anton LaVey

"The American people owe Charles Manson a debt of gratitude. For a quarter of a century, he has been made available to them on an increasingly regular basis. Through the good graces of the popular media and the prison system, he has achieved applepiedom. To millions of small children, he has become America's counterpart to Europe's man with the scissors, and the little tykes don't even have to suck their thumbs.

Mr. Manson befriended and attempted to validate the existence of some aimless young girls and a confused young man. He is paying for their crimes by being confined to his lifelong natural habitat- the Big House. He should be given a Public Service Award for providing temporary relief to the dull, the bored and boring, the unfulfilled - the multitudes who are institutionalized in prisons without walls. He is the omnipresent and has been very generous with his time in helping others to cope with the pain of their own insignificance.

To paraphrase the immortal Sam Goldwyn, Charles Manson has brought a cold, dead, desensitized world the essence of the most important commodity - in three words: stim your lation." -

joseph esposito said...

Dreath, I want to apologize for saying lawyers don't talk like MEN, what I meant to say... was: they don't talk like 'common' MEN. My apology.

Matt said...

Ok the Nazi contingent needs to turn it down a couple of notches. If not we will start deleting you. There are psycho forums that certainly would suit you better.

grimtraveller said...

Manson Mythos said...

Does anybody really consider the opinions of others, especially those in opposition to be worthy of consideration?

Yes MM. Believe it or not, the opinions of others, especially those that go against what one currently thinks are actually valuable. They help you get to know a person a bit better or at least where they are coming from if you don't get to interact eyeball to eyeball. On pages like these that's particularly important. It actually steers us from getting insulting about another person and what they say ~ something you could sometimes do with noting.
While it is comforting to find opinions in sync with one's own on occasion, particularly if it indicates that someone has come to the same conclusion that you have through different roads, it can be equally so to encounter opposition because you don't half learn a lot when someone holds a different view and can articulately express it. Actually, even if it's not articulately put. I don't agree with lots of things you say but precisely because I consider your opinions on the case and much that surrounds it, I look deeper and further. That's partly why when I disagree with you, I don't have to resort to insults, only occasional humour and sarcasm {which, in any case, is humour for me}. It's also why I rarely give you an inch. It's an oddity but really taking on board opinions and views that you don't agree with can actually be the springboard towards strengthening one's own view, with the added advantage that if you've really gotten to grips with someone's opposing view and tried to understand it as though it were yours, you know exactly where to scratch it to make it bleed.......

grimtraveller said...

Manson Mythos said...

The Right: Charles Manson was a leftist hippie freak who tried to start a race war so BLACKS would attack white people.

The left: Charles Manson was a racist hetrosexual white male who tried to start a race wars so WHITES would attack black people


And both would be in part correct !
There again, once one takes away Manson's vision of the way he saw things happening, something actually, that he had no control over, then one is left, not with the accurate prophecy with all it's stages, but the cartoon which constantly gets mis~aired or the breaking down of the whole into it's little parts.

Robert Hendrickson said...

How about this GRIMM: "We learn LITTLE from those who we agree with, BUT mucho MUCH from those who we don't agree with."

It's also kind'a like: the MANSON Case doesn't seem to make sense, BECAUSE 'IT' was intentionally made to appear that way - so as to become a real "distraction" from the TRUTH.

I would add that: Both Hilary Clinton AND Donald Trump make for a perfect distraction preventing most all of us from learning the TRUTH regarding THEIR personal "cases." BUT, learning the TRUTH behind THEIR Presidential CASE, could also reveal the TRUTH behind OUR very Democratic System.

NOT unlike the MANSON case can reveal the TRUTH behind OUR Judicial System - IF one really wants to understand the ugly TRUTH.

HellzBellz said...

@ Robert Hendrickson sayd at @ August 24, 2016 at 9:49 AM

British invading..... The Brits always had the ability to Fuck with the American Public in a way....We are talking about the Helter Skelter thing ,White Album, Beatles... Owhhhhh The Beatles...Those Four Brits that already started a Mass-Histeria here in the Us of A in and Before 1966. No wonder they believed all the Subliminal Messages in Helter Skelter and the White Album all along... Believed Bugliosi, Piggies and stuff like that, things only a Teeny-Bopper would believe it actualy excisted, Bugliosi could convince a Jury ???

Beatles 1966....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfMmbXwH9xQ

Robert C said...

Zelda F. -- with only a few minor exceptions I think your initial post is right on top of the truth. Kudos.

St. C. -- good review and speculation.

Grim -- illuminating as always.

Robert H. -- still sound like some weird sandwich but dammit I love it !

grimtraveller said...

Robert Hendrickson said...

During the Vietnam WAR more folks were KILLED by drunk drivers in America than bullets KILLED U.S. soldiers in Vietnam

That almost sounds like an argument bigging up the merits of the US involvement in 'Nam.

Manson Mythos said...

Yet he'll still be an acceptable punching bag long after his death

Be realistic. Most people that have done much time in jail so publicly will be. As will loads of people {LBJ ? Kennedy ? Bugliosi ? ☺ } that haven't. Punchbags are 10 a penny.

A person that Mr. and Mrs. Smith can project their own homicidal fantasies on and still be looked at as "good" people

Ah, yes, but looked upon as good by who ? You obviously don't. Are you saying your view doesn't count ?

Even Susan Atkins dying of cancer was called Karma by some of these people, despite Doris Tate also dying of the same form

I think that was more to do with the age she was at {relatively young} and the drama surrounding her requests to go home to die.

Dreath said...

I think maybe part of the enduring presence of these crimes has less to do with 'our' collective interest in the crimes then simple timing. Had they occurred perhaps in 1989 they might not have such a hold on us

I agree. There are things about the 1960s that make it unlike any decade in recent memory although that depends on whom you talk to about it. The thing with the whole bag of killings that's interesting is that there had been mass murder before, some far worse in some ways than the family jams. Famous people had met untimely ends before. With TLB, so much of interest came together at exactly the same time but even with all our explanations, when something grabs the public imagination, it just grabs it and there's nothing anyone can do about it !

I believe it was Joan Didion who said Manson killed the 60's. I don't think he killed the sixties but I think he was the 'punctuation mark.'

He and the Family were one of a number of dark sides to the 60s in America. The fact that assassinations bookended and middled the decade shows that.
The 60s are seen very differently depending on where one is from. For many Africans, for example, it began as a time of great hope, optimism and anticipation and ended as a disappointment and nightmare.


grimtraveller said...

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

I would much prefer that people step back from the actual crimes and take a practical look at what Charlie really represents as a person. He's a hateful creep. Anti-social. Good for nothing. Whether one is fascinated by the murders themselves, one cannot be fascinated by Charlie himself. He's boring. He's not interesting because hate is not interesting. Of all the people in all sides of this story, Charlie is the least-interesting

Hate is interesting. Much written history would not exist without it. I guess it depends what one is hating.
But it's interesting because of where it leads and what has lead to it.
I find Charles Manson interesting. Probably because of my background with kids, but he stands as a good example of where one can end up in the sort of situation he was brought up in. I'm not for a minute suggesting that he spent most of his life locked up because of it but it's naive to pretend that it had no bearing simply because "others have been where he was and made a success of their lives." Charles Watson demonstrates one other part of the conundrum, how the person with the "normal," everyday, caring supportive upbringing can end up in the same situation.
For me, neglect plays an important part in his story which makes me think about his Mum and Dad and some of the people he ran into in his various reform schools. I wonder how many of those wardens ever looked back and acknowledged that they may well have played a role in his creation.
There are lots of people who espouse the theory that the bad guys are the interesting ones. While that is certainly true of Disney cartoons {Mickey sucks but Donald rocks !}, I don't hold that to be the case in real life. It's hard to put one's finger on exactly what one finds interesting about a person or set of persons. For example, I find Pete Townshend really interesting, but not Keith Moon. I found John Entwistle interesting, but not Roger Daltrey.

Farflung said...

I suppose the hidden message in music is best characterized by.....Judas Priest

The thing with the Judas Priest case is that the parents of the deceased were proceeding on the basis that there were coded messages in their songs. Backwards, even. Which is a whole other ball game. Judas Priest weren't about coded messages. The messages and subject matter in their songs were upfront and they weren't about telling anyone to blow their brains out of their skulls.

Do coded messages work?

Well, that is the question.
Initially, coded messages were used to get past censors. Whether or not they worked can only really be answered by looking at what the messages were and if they were instructional. Much of the time, they weren't. The thing with messages in songs is that the lyricist has no guarantee that what they might be trying to convey will even be picked up by listeners. Come to think of it, sometimes, the lyricist may not be trying to convey anything at all to anyone. They may just be throwing in things that express what they understand, rather like Dylan did with "Maggie's farm" where so many folk purists thought he was sticking it to the guv'ment whereas he was actually sticking it to them coz he didn't want to be their mouthpiece ~ a role they'd given him.

If they did I would expect the IRS to assemble a band, and sing about the virtues of paying taxes. The CIA could write about watching that commie neighbor, and the FBI could follow through with a tune about reporting that person next door. But they don't, presumably because it doesn't work

Interesting examples. You wouldn't need to code messages in songs for those things. Many "good citizens" were only too pleased to do those things anyway. There's nothing subversive there.

grimtraveller said...

Manson Mythos said...

What is interesting, is that Bugliosi spoke a great deal about Manson hearing messages in the white album

It is debatable whether the 60s in the USA and UK would have happened in quite the same way had artists not been putting messages in their songs. Tons of people heard messages in songs, then and now. I hear them all the time. Many many artists don't deny it. There was nothing unusual about Charles Manson hearing messages in the White album. There's even a song on the album that addresses people picking up messages in songs ~ "Glass onion." Just listening to songs on Stax and Motown gives one a fascinating window into the psyche of much of Black America at the time. And a fascinating history lesson can be gleaned just listening to the lyrics of songs from 1962 onwards.
Where artists of the 60s and 70s drew the line was in taking responsibility for the kooky actions of fans that interpreted lyrics in ways the artists hadn't foreseen. When Sly Stone penned "Don't Call Me Nigger, Whitey" and James Brown came up with the lyrics of "Say It Loud – I'm Black and I'm Proud," neither envisaged revenge and further segregation.

Farflung said...

I should have said that any coded message typically lacks efficacy. How are those peace songs working out?

Well, lots of people believe in peace and it's reinforced by what they sometimes hear in song. No need to code it.

The human will is difficult to change

But as Charles Manson found, not impossible.

Robert Hendrickson said...

It is very hard to change one's WILL, but as Charles Manson found - NOT impossible.

GRIMM: therein lies a perfect example of a "coded" subliminal message. BUT the subject "message" is most likely meaningless to anyone other than a Manson Case scholar, like yourself. AND it was probably YOUR unconscious MIND that created the "subliminal" message contained within the consciously created WHOLE sentence.

This mixing of conscious and unconscious THOUGHT in one barrel of apples usually leads to the idea that one bad apple can spoil an entire barrel of good apples. AND for most folks, the chore of sorting through a bunch of apples to find the one good one is simply NOT worth it. It's so much easier to just label the WHOLE barrel as a barrel full of BAD apples.

Fortunately, there are now websites that actually provide a venue for those who wish to explore the outer limits of the human MIND and what better place than a website dedicated to the understanding of a man WHO actually learned how to CONTROL minds and influence their way of THINKING.

leary7 said...

I hate to say it and be a Scrooge again....but it just makes me sad when the "self-obsessed, six-pack pontifications" (packaged around an eighth grade book report on TLB)- of a self-proclaimed Saint gets praised as some sort of astute commentary.
Count the number of times the pronoun "I" or "me" is used in the intro and conclusion. Sorry, it's just that my pet peeve in life is people who clearly find themselves the most fascinating person in any room they exist in.

And I need to get to my doctors because Robert H is making more and more sense to me. His offerings have indeed become less "blured".

leary7 said...

Saint likes to think of himself as Fraser when he is clearly Cliff Clavin.

And, sure, I'll be Norm. I've got the belly.
If Matt only had the hair he could be Sam.
Cheers.

vexed vexon said...

Ill be left with unerring belief in the honour of some men.
A belief that where ever a man may be,a cave in Nepal ,or a cell in California,some enlightenment may come.
An absolute conviction that the media and courts at times lie and deceive.
A lesson he gave to always be your own father and dont look to him.
And a belief that no matter what happens to you,you can still retain some dignity.That you need not surrender,nor not plead guilty to crimes you have not committed.
A lesson that you only have yourself and the ones you love to answer to.And all the lies and force in the world need not change you nor your core belief.
A belief that a life lived in honour is its own reward.
Many of you here Im sad to say,will only have the bitter realisation at the end of your days that you've wasted a part of your short time here on this planet obsessing over the actions of a man whose main message was to live in the NOW. And its a subject, if your honest with yourselves. youre probably attracted to because the tale includes pop-culture favourites like sex,drugs and beautiful movie stars.
And thats a sad ironic end to things.

joseph esposito said...

Excellent point, vexed, couldn't have said it better myself. They're doing the same thing to Bill Cosby.

Buona Fortuna said...

Vexed Vexon!!
Beautiful. I love this and appreciate it so much. Thank you!

"Ill be left with unerring belief in the honour of some men.
A belief that where ever a man may be,a cave in Nepal ,or a cell in California,some enlightenment may come.
An absolute conviction that the media and courts at times lie and deceive.
A lesson he gave to always be your own father and dont look to him.
And a belief that no matter what happens to you,you can still retain some dignity.That you need not surrender,nor not plead guilty to crimes you have not committed.
A lesson that you only have yourself and the ones you love to answer to.And all the lies and force in the world need not change you nor your core belief.
A belief that a life lived in honour is its own reward.
Many of you here Im sad to say,will only have the bitter realisation at the end of your days that you've wasted a part of your short time here on this planet obsessing over the actions of a man whose main message was to live in the NOW. And its a subject, if your honest with yourselves. youre probably attracted to because the tale includes pop-culture favourites like sex,drugs and beautiful movie stars.
And thats a sad ironic end to things."