Monday, December 12, 2016

The Strange Case of the Royal Chessmen and the Manson Murder Connection

Ugly Things Magazine - Issue #42 - Summer 2016
In early 1969 a group o Latino teenagers from El Monte visited Custom Fidelity's studio in Pasadena to record a 45rpm: ”You Must Believe Me"  b/w "Beggin' You”, issued in February 1969 as CF-742. The flipside, composed by lead singer David and guitarist Gilbert Zabele, went on to become an East LA cult classic, demand being so great that it was bootlegged not once but twice by a notorious Chicano record dealer nicknamed Bootin' Bernie on his illicit labels, Riot and Angle. Original copies on Custom Fidelity, though, are extremely hard to come by, so much so that the single has built up a mythical status among collectors of the East LA sound. In their book 45RPM: The History, Heroes & Villains of a Pop Music Revolution, Jim Dawson and Steve Propes listed it as one of "The 50 Most Expensive 45s," outlining a story that has contributed immensely to the single's reputation and desirability. "The only known copy," they wrote, "ended up with Steven Parent, the son of the people who owned the studio, who was carrying it with him in his car to play for a couple of labels around Hollywood. While visiting a friend who lived in the guest house at Roman Polanski's sprawling estate, Parent was murdered, along with Sharon Tate and others, by members of the Charles Manson family. According to the vocal group members, the LAPD impounded the car in which Parent was killed, and the original 45 might still be in the evidence locker, because they were never able to get it back."

It's a compelling story, but does it stand up to scrutiny? Actually… it sort of does.

While, Parent, 18, was definitely not "the son of the people who owned the studio" (for one thing, Dave Berkus was only 10 years older than him at the time), Berkus confirms that Steve did occasionally hang around at Custom Fidelity. Steve was a music lover, a guitar player, and an audio and electronics enthusiast who was keen to learn more about the recording process. "Steve seemed all about the engineering and sessions as I recall," says Berkus.

Like the Royal Chessmen, Steve lived in El Monte and attended Arroyo High School, so it's quite likely that he was friends with them, as they claim. It was probably Steve who told them all about Custom Fidelity and encouraged them to make their record there. After graduating high school in June 1969, Steve worked two part-time jobs, as a delivery boy for a plumbing company, and as a salesman for a stereo store on Wilshire Boulevard. He was saving money to attend college that fall. Parent may have told the Royal Chessmen that he'd take their single around some Hollywood record companies, exaggerating the music business connections he'd made through his job at the stereo store. Steve had gone to the Polanski house on that fateful night in August 1969 to visit his friend Bill Garretson, who worked as a caretaker there. Parent had brought along a clock radio he hoped to sell to Garretson. Perhaps he also brought along the record his friends had made, maybe even naively thinking that Garretson would tell his Hollywood employers about it. It's a stretch, but not outside the realm of possibility. Tragically, Parent was in the wrong place at the wrong time. As he was leaving, he was slashed with a buck knife then shot four times by Tex Watson, becoming the Manson Family's first victim in that night's killing spree. In the media his death was somewhat overshadowed by that of the more famous victims, but his friends and family naturally were devastated. "When we all heard of the murders, we were in shock for our personal friendship with one of the victims," remembers Dave. Does a copy of the Royal Chessmen single still reside in an LAPD evidence locker? Probably not. But it's a myth that has enhanced the value of the 45 tremendously. What's for certain is that Steven Parent's Royal Chessmen record - if indeed he had one - was not "the only known copy." Others have since surfaced. They change hands for anywhere from $500 to $1,300, depend-ing on condition. Without its connection to one of Los Angeles' most notorious crime scenes, it would likely be worth a lot less. • (Mike Stax)


Thank you, Arrak!







66 comments:

St Circumstance said...

"Beggin You" is actually a nice old 50's style Doo-wop ballad...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Ojg2oG1Xs




Matt said...

It is, isn't it?

Dreath said...

Said,

Very nice nice song, I'd say.

And here's a bit more on the Royal Chessman, although this link says it was recorded in 1966.

http://wwwyoufoundthateastsidesoundcom.blogspot.com/2016/02/eastside-bands-royal-chessmen.html

Trivia: If Parent was looking for a Hollywood connection he had his own. Jerrold D. [David] Friedman, the UCLA student is David Gerrold. In 1967 he wrote a moderately famous TV show episode for Star Trek called The Trouble With Tribbles and dedicated his first Sci-Fi-fi novel 'When Harley Was One" to Steven Parent.


"For Steven Earl Parent, with love. Sleep well, old friend. You got the job done."

Dreath said...

That should have been 'Saint'

St Circumstance said...

:)

Matt said...

Thanks, Dreath. As I suspected, Gerrold is gay, further reinforcing my thesis in this post.

Of course, ColScott was right...


Dreath said...

Matt,

I researched some stuff for a post I never did as I could not get a few people to respond to me (including Gerrold) but as we know Parent worked at Jonas Miller stereo. Miller advertised his shop as a 'high end audio salon' and offered that his people would come to your home and custom build your system based upon your space and sound needs. Could be another reason Parent was headed that way.

Another young man who graduated June 1969 also went to work for Miller at that time: Ken Kriesel who went on with Miller to form MK Sound and is credited with popularizing subwoofer systems.

ColScott said...

The Col is seldom wrong because he refuses to speak without fucking knowing what he is talking about.

They thought Steve WAS the caretaker. That was why the search of the back house was half hearted. It was a "double check make sure all is clear" moment.

Steven came by for sex. He and WG had sex. Whoop de do. It just makes sense not "hey near stranger wanna buy a clock radio?" WG was an Altobelli boy toy.

Now since the sexuality of Parent, Altobelli and WG was really beside the point for what happened, this shit has been muddied since the days of Bill Molesto Nelson.

Again, as I used to say on the only official TLB blog, what a researcher must do is check and see if things make HUMAN sense. Do humans tend to do things like you were told. No, humans do not show up late at night at a near stranger's house to randomly sell them electronics.

Our fellow researcher Max Frost has been late night texting me about all sorts of conspiracy madness lately, not TLB related.

But did you know that Max back in the day when he was friendlyish with Molesto had some meals with Altobelli? And cold called WG late one night? I don't think he found out much but yeah that happened.

This is a nice obscure anecdote that I never heard.

I see Gerrold at a weird paperback show in Glendale every March or something. Maybe I should ask him about Steven next time? What job did he "get done"?

St Circumstance said...

:) Max Frost Happy Holidays and grace us with your presence more often please!

Mr. Humphrat said...

Col. did one of the murderers tell someone they thought Parent was the caretaker?

orwhut said...

An interesting post and thoughtful comments.

ColScott said...

Humpy


Not that I am aware of but it always seemed logical to me. There is a guest house, somebody must live there, somebody not necessarily associated with the Beautiful People in the main house. We stabbed that poor fucking kid he's dead. I'll go jiggle the door knob and if no one answers then hell we got him right?

This was unplanned chaos. There is some belief they didn't think Sharon was gonna be there. It wasn't like they took a head count.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

The Col is seldom wrong because he refuses to speak without fucking knowing what he is talking about

It's a good thing you used the word "seldom."

Steven came by for sex. He and WG had sex. Whoop de do. It just makes sense not "hey near stranger wanna buy a clock radio?" WG was an Altobelli boy toy

Both scenarios make sense.
Something making sense, of course, is no guarantee of it being true or even likely.
There is only one person in the universe who ever proffered an explanation {as opposed to speculation} as to why Steven Parent was up at that house that night and unfortunately that person was William Garretson.

Now since the sexuality of Parent, Altobelli and WG was really beside the point for what happened, this shit has been muddied since the days of Bill Molesto Nelson

It obviously is not besides the point because it comes up again and again and again {no pun intended}.

what a researcher must do is check and see if things make HUMAN sense

And herein lies the problem; makes human sense to whom ? If Steve Parent was gay or bisexual or like Dave Davies of the Kinks, curious {and in addition to any of the 3, horny}, it makes sense that he might have wandered up to see a guy in the hopes of a quick fling 'ting developing before heading off to work on someone's stereo. How many of us have been to see a friend, whatever your persuasion, with a slight hope that "an imperial entanglement" might ensue ?

Do humans tend to do things like you were told. No

Well, sometimes they do. The range of things that people choose to do is not narrow at all.

humans do not show up late at night at a near stranger's house to randomly sell them electronics

Maybe not the humans you fraternize with !
There's not a great distance between the mindset of lonely William saying to a guy roughly his age that gave him a lift, drop by anytime and a Dennis Wilson saying the same thing in almost the same circumstances to Charles Watson. As clich├ęd as it may seem, it really is not out of step with much of the activity of the times where people would just drop in on each other, regardless of the closeness of the relationship {think spiral staircase}.
When I was 16, my mate went to see a mate of his and he took me along. While we were there, he played this Rolling Stones album, "Through the past, darkly," and it knocked me out. I thought it was fantastic. Anyway, I spent the next 3 months dreaming about that album and when I finished school at the end of the summer term, I made my way to the house of my mate's mate, even though I didn't really know him and he had an alsatian with a snarl that made one's bumcheeks clench. And I went there without my mate. We talked for a bit and I borrowed the album from him {I had it for over a year !}. In the end, we turned out to be quite good friends and he went out with my sister for a while.
People do things like what Steve Parent did all the time. Someone I didn't know other than she signed for a parcel I delivered once, asked for my number and when she rang, tried to get me to invest in a venture she was starting. I just don't see that it could only be one reason that a young guy in need of funds would turn up at the pad of someone whom had given him an open invite to do so, even if it was late at night. And late for whom ? Garretson stayed up most of the night. Parent was on his way elsewhere so it was obviously going to be a late one for him. In the mid to late 60s, the night was young at 23.45pm for a teen on a Friday night........
It still is.

grimtraveller said...

When it comes down to it, we don't really know anything concrete about Steven Parent.

Jenn said...

Hi all,
I continue to find conmections between The Case and me all the time. I taught at Arroyo High School, 1981-83. I didn't know that Steve went there until later. Someday I'll make a return visit and take some pics for the group. I've done some business with Custom Fidelity in the distant past, as I had my school music program records recorded by them. Finally, Dreath, I was a frequent customer of Jonas Miller Audio in the 80s. It was a great high-end audio establishment. Those subwoofers were freakin' great. One day when I was in there, I met Ray Manzarek from The Doors and his Yoko Ono look-alike wife.

I plan on writing a post in early January that I hope will be found worthy of use by the folks in charge. It will be about the Family connections to my present location, San Luis Obispo, CA County. There are several connections: California Men's Colony (where Davis "lives" and Watson used to be. I have stories), Atascadero State Hospital (where Watson was for a bit; one mile from my house), where Beausoleil was arrested, where Davis' ex wife lives, etc.

Jenn

ziggyosterberg said...


Hi Jenn. Good to see you here, and I look forward to your upcoming post. It sounds really interesting.

RE: Ray Manzarek. Did he mention "Jim" when you met him? I don't think I ever heard him talk and not mention "Jim".

On another note, I recall Danny Sugerman saying something like Ray stopped talking to him or cut him out of his life when he found out that Danny had cancer. That's just cold.

Dreath said...

Jenn,

If they let me post here you have a pretty good shot (I'm only half kidding).

Question: Some research I did suggested they would, indeed, come to your home and what we might call 'balance' your system. Given the prices I saw- even circa 1969- this wouldn't surprise me. Any info?

Or e-mail me

ziggyosterberg said...


grimtraveller said...

There's not a great distance between the mindset of lonely William saying to a guy roughly his age that gave him a lift, drop by anytime


There's been an epidemic of lonely boys hanging out on Santa Monica Blvd for many decades now. The only cure for their loneliness appears to be accepting rides from strangers.

I can't figure out what is going on there, because Vincent Bugliosi never explained it to me in a book. I guess we'll never know.


Both scenarios make sense.
Something making sense, of course, is no guarantee of it being true or even likely.



I know, right? It's like Gary Hinman having a scale in his kitchen - Why do people think that was drug related?

HELLO, PEOPLE! Like all single men, Gary was a very meticulous cook, carefully weighing the ingredients of his TV Dinner before cooking it.

Dreath said...

And Grim,

I agree with you. In college- 18-22 I frequently had random people I met here or there show up at my abode for this, that or the other reason- usually they were drunk/stoned.

I even had one guy try to sell me a car because I had made a comment in a bar and hung out with him for 2 hours and said I/we (my friends) needed a way to get to Fort Lauderdale for Spring Break (Saint reference)

We went in a 1975 Pinto. Stayed in the Howard Johnson's on A1A. 8 guys two beds.

Dreath said...

Ziggy said: "HELLO, PEOPLE! Like all single men, Gary was a very meticulous cook, carefully weighing the ingredients of his TV Dinner before cooking it."

I'm a cook, not single was thinking of being a chef:


BULLSHIT!

;-)

Mr. Humphrat said...

Hi Jenn, I too look forward to your post. I went to Cal Poly for a year and my step son graduated there so I have a fondness for that beautiful area. I actually read a so-so novel a few years ago where one of the Manson family (Squeaky or maybe a fictionalized version of her) pushes some guy off Morro Rock and makes it look like suicide.
Col. thanks for your answer. I always enjoy your insider insights.
Regarding whether Steve and William had sex, I am interested in that because I like stories and I like to find out more details to fill in stories. Clearly he must have brought the famous clock radio in to William's cottage as William said from the beginning it was the reason for the visit. I can see how someone would bring the radio and it would be the initial reason for the visit and then see where it goes from there.
Also, I looked at the link for the Royal Chessmen and I love that song too. I do enjoy the East L.A. sound and those simple love songs from that era as well as some of the rockers.

St Circumstance said...

I look forward to reading it too Jenn!!

St Circumstance said...

I saw Ray Manzarek right before he passed away. He played at the Wanee Music Festival in Live Oak Florida in 2012 with the Roy Rogers Band. He cleared his band off the stage at one point and dedicated a song to Jim... Then he did a piano solo of Crystal Ship...

It was an afternoon set on the second of 4 days- very unusual moment to see the greatest performance of the entire festival- which featured the Allman Brothers and Further among many others....

Mr. Humphrat said...

I LOVE the Crystal Ship! That must've been great

St Circumstance said...

It was lol

grimtraveller said...

ziggyosterberg said...

grimtraveller said...

Surely not !

Gary Hinman having a scale in his kitchen - Why do people think that was drug related?

It may well have been.
What mention of it also may demonstrate is just how keen some people are to shoehorn every little iota of happenstance into their already existing conclusion.
But not you Zigster.
You're the bomb.

St Circumstance said...

The scale at Hinman was tested for a substance of which particles were found on it- and it tested negative for narcotics.

So whilst Gary still MAY have been using the scale for drugs ( no proof anywhere I could find that he dealt drugs)...

It has been proven that Gary used his scale for culinary purposes for sure

:)


Saint Circumstance recipe for fresh Holiday white bread:

add 1 tspn of powered yeast to 2 cups of water ( minimally 105 degrees)into large mixing bowl- then let sit until yeast rises forming a pasty bubbly substance. Then add 10 lbs of flour- 1 pound of sugar- 1 dozen eggs. 2 tblspns of salt and 1 tbspn of pepper. 2 quarts of water/1 cup of caonla oil and mix thoroughly until it forms a plastic dough. Cover dough and leave in room at room temperature until dough rises out of mixing bowl.

Take dough out of mixing bowl and cut into 10 equal portions and then leave each individual portion covered at room temperature until each one rises to about triple original size. The roll out each portion and cut into individual balls. Should yeild about 35 to 50 balls. Each ball is then rolled out to a loaf shape and placed into bread box. Allow all boxes to sit in warm temperature ( bread box) until they rise so the tip of loaf slightly protrudes out of each individual box.

Bake all bread boxes until loaves are golden brown on bottom and dark brown on top. With a small brush- slightly wipe the top of each loaf with melted butter.


When cool pop each loaf out of box and let cool further until ready to slice...

ColScott said...

Grimmy

Not sure I have much time to smack you down, hard to argue with stupid. But your two main points seem to be that Steve's being gay matters to the case. It doesn't . It keeps coming up because the 45 % of the country who voted for our new Russian leaders are homophobic racists. That's it. And then to dispute my assertion that nobody every shows up to sell electronics to acquaintances after midnight you tell a tale about borrowing an LP from someone. Really?

I see why your situation is so Grim.

Lynn said...

Ray Manzarek's wife's name was Dorothy. I met him at the LA Weekly Music Awards many years ago.

I had to laugh at the people showing up your door comment. Many years ago I lived in a charming house in the city. Late in the evening, we would have guests show up and salute the window. After this happened over and over, I finally asked the person why this was happening. Apparently in the 60s a band had lived in the house and played on the porch and their fans saluted them. Had to share

Thoughtful post. Jenn, I also look forward to your post. Have spent some time up there but did not realize there was a Manson connection....but the connections seem to be everywhere.

ziggyosterberg said...


ColScott said...

And then to dispute my assertion that nobody every shows up to sell electronics to acquaintances after midnight you tell a tale about borrowing an LP from someone. Really?

I think that was probably a leftover story from his homerecording.com days.

Judging by the content of his Mansonblog blathering, he must've had a ton of stories like that one stockpiled for future use before homerecording.com put him on the "pay no mind" list.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Whether or not Garretson and Parent had sex could also be significant to the timeline of the murders. They could have looked at the radio, unplugged it shortly after midnight, had beers and had enough fun to eat up a lot more time than just the radio scenario. Of course that doesn't change the case, but a lot of people have questions about what time the killings took place. And I think a lot of people find the whole story endlessly fascinating and the more details and speculation the better.

Dreath said...

Mr. Humphrat said....

"And I think a lot of people find the whole story endlessly fascinating and the more details and speculation the better."

Here! Here!

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Cool story ..... Beggin' You is a nice little tune in that Little Anthony & The Imperials style.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

Grimmy

Ooh Colonelly, I love it when you talk dirty !

Not sure I have much time to smack you down

Away with you, Nelly ! We both know you've always got time for a smackdown....

hard to argue with stupid

It's also getting hard for you to come up with something new and original. That was old and worn and yesterdays papers. VHS and 12 inch black & white, even.

But your two main points seem to be that Steve's being gay matters to the case. It doesn't

Not even close to a main point and you'd be right if it were true. But it's fairly obvious to me that for a number of people, it is germane to something.
You choose to assume. I'd rather have facts or at least someone verifying some info before I hang my hat on it and state it as fact.
I have to say that for me, Steven Parent doesn't really rate as one of the truly interesting facets of this case. Now, Garretson, that's a different kettle of fish. There's a chapter one can really get one's teeth stuck into.

It keeps coming up because the 45 % of the country who voted for our new Russian leaders are homophobic racists. That's it

Somehow, I can't see you as someone that voted for the POTUSA in waiting and I don't figure you for a homophobe or a racist.
But you brought it up.
It's not the first time.

And then to dispute my assertion that nobody ever shows up to sell electronics to acquaintances after midnight you tell a tale about borrowing an LP from someone. Really?

Yeah, really. It's a daft assertion and there are tons of examples of similar happenings to demonstrate why it's daft to assert that people only behave in one way. You may find many homophobic racists do just that.

grimtraveller said...

Mr. Humphrat said...

but a lot of people have questions about what time the killings took place

I tend to go with what the killers said on that, which is that it was dark and at night ! I think Vincent T made so much of trying to fit a strict timeline to events but in reality, he didn't need to. I can understand why he did so but none of the four Cielo perps ever denied being there and nothing in the time line itself tied Charlie to the killings.

ColScott said...

This was unplanned chaos

I agree with that to a large extent, certainly in terms of what physically happened. It was the classic meeting of criminal opportunism and psychedelic improvisation. In another sphere, it could have been a tax scam record label.


ziggyosterberg said...
homerecording.com days

Days you evidently remember so well.....
Oh, Ziggy !

his Mansonblog blathering

Blathering that you simply cannot resist. That's some quality blather, mate.
You still jonesin' for me ?
Oh Ziggy !

Dreath said...

Grim said: "I think Vincent T made so much of trying to fit a strict timeline to events but in reality, he didn't need to."

I completely agree with you-on the level of convicting them (even Manson) it doesn't matter as long as they were there.

But I also see another reason it matters that to me has less to do with the outcome then the process. If witnesses changed their story, made up times to fit the timeline to me, call me naive, that matters. If someone encouraged Weber to say it was 1:00 a.m. what else were witnesses 'encouraged' to say. That bothers me.

It dovetails with something that has also bothered me since I joined the 'most beloved profession' in the US- that Bugliosi was proud of his multiple interviews of witnesses. I think somewhere he says he interviewed them up to 50 times. Studies rather overwhelmingly show this influences witness 'memory'. It fills in the jigsaw pieces.

"Mr. Weber, we know they were at Cielo Drive at about midnight maybe 12:15 and left there about 12:50 what time do you think that was when they reached your house?"

"Well, it was 1:00"

"How do you know that did you look at the clock or something?"

"Yes, I looked at the clock."

Dreath said...

"It keeps coming up because the 45 % of the country who voted for our new Russian leaders are homophobic racists. That's it."

Steven being gay.

Seems to me that it comes up when someone says they believe he wasn't. And I think that is part of what happens here for all of us on different topics. We latch onto a theory and don't like it when someone chips away at it or just disagrees so we tend to rise up in defense.

I also think some believe the way to win the argument is to attack the messenger.

The argument 'for' even as offered by the Col is based upon 'associations' and the odd idea of stopping by to sell a clock radio.

Of course it is unlikely we will ever know for sure. Although I am pretty sure the young woman who was his prom date doesn't share that view- but I'm speculating.

And, of course it absolutely doesn't matter and frankly until I read some posts on other sites, including the Col's posts, it never crossed my mind. And when I did read them I kept asking 'who cares?' The only possible way it matters is if you are, as the Col says, a homophobe who rates a gay man as perhaps 3/5th of a heterosexual and the Co. is right, many here do.

But the Col is the one who established this bit of irrelevancy as fact, so...circling back around, of course he would defend it.

ziggyosterberg said...


Dreath,

There's a gay site called "Datalounge" which frequently posts TLB and Manson related topics/threads. I posted a link to one of those threads a while back here. The sexuality of Rudi Altobelli, Steven Parent, William Garretson, Bobby Beausoleil, Charles Manson et al, is not something that is swept under the rug there.

We openly discuss every aspect of all things sexual related to TLB & the Manson family. The only time anyone wants to deny or make the claim of the irrelevance of sexual matters to this case is when we cross the hetero threshold into bisexuality or homosexuality. That, in itself, is homophobic.

With that in mind, it's no coincidence that the only person here with a problem with Steven being gay is our resident religious bigot/egotistical twit/homerecording.com reject.

Mr. Humphrat said...

OK, just out of curiosity, how many Mansonblog visitors have also visited homerecording.com? That's kind of random that Ziggy and Grim have both been there. Next thing we'll find out is they belong to the same fantasy football league.

Dreath said...

"The only time anyone wants to deny or make the claim of the irrelevance of sexual matters to this case is when we cross the hetero threshold into bisexuality or homosexuality. That, in itself, is homophobic."

Ziggy, since I said it was irrelevant whether Steven Parent was gay or not please tell me how it is relevant.

Maybe I misunderstood.

Col Scott challenged a woman who said she was Parent's GF (bet her $500 she wasn't) to prove his point Parent was gay. I really want to know why it matters to the tune of $500.

The forensics suggest the first shot just passed through his mouth from cheek to lip. Put yourself right there at that moment and tell me why his sexuality matters.

Apparently it matters because it keeps coming up.

I'm done now. Sorry to all. I'm probably out of line.

Nonymous said...

Hi Dreath. Thank for answering my question on the previous blog post last night. I appreciate it. Off topic: I learn a lot from lurking here. You all are such thorough researchers of history. The stuff that really interests me is the Shea case and the death of Zero, because there are still a lot of mysteries with those two. I hope more blog posts come up on those topics in the future. This blog let me know where to go in when I visited Chatsworth a few years ago. Chatsworth is so weird, Devonshire Street is in a sort of time capsule. So many of the same businesses that were there in 1969 are stil there. I don't have much to add. I'm not an expert on the case like you all are. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone.

ziggyosterberg said...


Dreath,

Just my opinion, but I think everything about this case, and the people involved in it, is relevant to discussion of this case. Steven Parent's sexuality is no less relevant than an obscure 45 by a some group called "The Royal Chessmen".

And it matters, or is "relevant", because there shouldn't be any stigma attached to being gay. That, which you clearly understood, is what the Col was saying with his "new Russian leaders" comment to Grim.

I understand what you're saying. You're saying that it's irrelevant from a legal standpoint, and that's it's irrelevant in the sense that someone's sexuality doesn't make them less or more of a human being or justify any harm done to them, all of which I agree with.

ziggyosterberg said...


Mr. Humphrat said...

OK, just out of curiosity, how many Mansonblog visitors have also visited homerecording.com? That's kind of random that Ziggy and Grim have both been there. Next thing we'll find out is they belong to the same fantasy football league.


Grim has been following me around ever since I turned him down for a recording contract in 1983.

Believe it or not, I had never heard of homerecording.com until a poster on here a while back was kind enough to point out that Grim had a history there. Apparently he was quite highly thought of by his fellow homerecorders. ;-)

Matt said...

ziggyosterberg said...

I understand what you're saying. You're saying that it's irrelevant from a legal standpoint...


In my opinion it it's irrelevant from every standpoint except one. The more "irrelevant details" that slowly become fact agreed upon, the closer we get to stumbling into something that actually does matter. That's why minutia matters.


Mr. Humphrat said...

Ziggy said: "Grim has been following me around ever since I turned him down for a recording contract in 1983."
It's funny to read how much history has gone on between people on this blog.

orwhut said...

For all I know Parrent and Garretson were both straight virgins. Did the corroner check Parrent's body for semen stains? IF, he went to see Garretson for gay sex and Garretson withheld information from the police because he didn't want it known, THEN their sexuality is relevant to the case.

Matt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matt said...

That's the point. Burdick (the polygraph examiner) felt that Garretson was "holding back" on something. It was either the crimes - or it was that he had had sex with men. He could care less if Garretson was gay. If Burdick could get him to come clean on the homosexuality thing, it would rule that out and make the crimes the focus of the deception he was seeing in the polygraph and determine if Garretson was telling the truth.

Both are understandably uncomfortable, but if I were being interrogated for a multiple murder I didn't commit, I'd be forthcoming with any other skeletons in my closet to satisfy Burdick and the detectives. It was though, a different world back then where homosexuality was concerned.


grimtraveller said...

orwhut said...

Did the coroner check Parent's body for semen stains?

Yeah.
On the August 10th autopsy and medical examiner's report, it was noted that "examination of fresh anal and buccal smear by light microscopy with reduced condenser setting showed no evidence of sperm."

IF, he went to see Garretson for gay sex and Garretson withheld information from the police because he didn't want it known, THEN their sexuality is relevant to the case

It might be if the information withheld was connected with what happened to Steve. But only Garretson would hold the key to that particular mystery.
In his polygraph test, he was asked point blank if he'd had sex with Steve and he said no. He was also asked if he was gay and he said no. And he was asked if he'd ever had sex with a man and he said yes. Burdick had to drag the details out of him and expressed some surprise at some of Garretson's answers {and I must admit, I find it hard to believe to believe one could be so tired that one could sleep through a blow job, even if you'd been up 2 or 3 nights} but Garretson didn't withhold that piece of info. He even part names the guy that shone his tings.

Matt said...

That's the point. Burdick (the polygraph examiner) felt that Garretson was "holding back" on something. It was either the crimes - or it was that he had had sex with men

It could have been both. And if what Garretson later came out on TV and said was true, Burdick was right because Garretson says that he did hold stuff back about what he heard and what he saw. But it was connected to the crimes.
But he also revealed some interesting stuff like being afraid and seeing the door handle turned down or Steve noticing two of the victims in the house and being curious as to who they were or saying that one time, two people in the house told two of his friends that they were tripping on mescaline or even his own sex and drug history.
Whether Garretson was in such shock that things escaped his memory at the time {it can happen even if you're not in shock ~ many a time I've later recalled something that I'd totally forgotten about closer to the time} or whether the pressure told, he held back. Had he not held back on what he revealed 30 years later, the police would have been clued up on at least one important thing; given that he claimed he saw one woman chasing another, the police would have known that they were looking for at least one woman. Put together with the info that Jess Buckles rejected from Detectives Whitely and Guenther the same day that Garretson was being interviewed, about the similarities with the Hinman case and the "hippies" that Bobby Beausoleil, the suspect, was associated with, they could have made some important headway in the case much sooner. They could have swept Spahn before Linda had even had a chance to run off.

grimtraveller said...

Mr. Humphrat said...

Ziggy said: "Grim has been following me around ever since I turned him down for a recording contract in 1983."
It's funny to read how much history has gone on between people on this blog.


Well, it is when it's factual. I wouldn't know ziggy if the zigster was the person delivering the mail or taking down the scaffolding. I don't even know if the zig is male or female. Or 18 or 55 or was even alive in 1983. And I wouldn't follow them to Syria
But I dig your point because it's one of the more interesting side points of the blogs. When I first landed here, there was a certain relationship between certain people that would often come out in the comments. As I became familiar with this one, CieloDrive.com, LSB, Truth on Tate and the Col's one and started going through the archives, the origins of some of the wranglings, fallouts, private jokes and whatnot become clearer. One can see how Cats' site had it's origins in the Col's and how a number of the leading lights that have their own blogs were part of his for a while. It's interesting following the evolution of the involvement of Robert, George, Simon Wells and David Williams ~ at least as far as what can be gleaned from the posts go. It's been fascinating seeing Manson Mythos span at least 4 different names and I've dueled with him across 3 sites and all those identities.
All good fun for the most part. If people choose to turn nasty because someone disputes or disagrees with their views, that isn't really my affair. It's not how I choose to play the game. Col {whom I actually have a lot of time for} referred to me as stupid, but he's wrong.
I'm gentleman stupid !

ziggyosterberg said...

it's no coincidence that the only person here with a problem with Steven being gay is our resident religious bigot/egotistical twit/homerecording.com reject

I have no problem whatsoever with whether or not Steven Parent was gay. There are a number of characters in this saga that were/are gay or bisexual and they have fascinated me for 38 years. We're in the fortunate position to have their own words on the subject so there's no need to make assertions based on what we don't know. We don't have that in Parent's case. I wish we did if it were so, because he remains something of an enigma to TLB. For the record, I put that assertion in exactly the same bag as I put Starviego's idea that Charlie organized Helter Skelter at the behest of the Black Muslims with Mrs Chapman as the connection to Folger or that of Rosemary LaBianca being some big time dealer of LSD.
Even if I were a religious bigot, egotistical twit or homerecording reject, that would not alter the simple reality that we know virtually sweet FA about Steven. And I'm not going to state as fact what I simply do not know because it's never been verified.
Verify and I'm cool. Speculate and we'll debate. Assert and I require more than narrow mindedness.


ziggyosterberg said...


Matt said...

In my opinion it's irrelevant from every standpoint except one. The more "irrelevant details" that slowly become fact agreed upon, the closer we get to stumbling into something that actually does matter. That's why minutia matters.


Columbo was always obsessed with the most seemingly insignificant detail.

ziggyosterberg said...


grimtraveller said...


And I'm not going to state as fact what I simply do not know because it's never been verified.


Since when is that the case with you? It must be a new rule that you came up with today. Does this mean that you're no longer a Christian?


Verify and I'm cool.


So you're not cool with Steven Parent being gay, unless we verify it?

But you're cool with Steven Parent being an unverified heterosexual? Because there's nothing wrong with that.

The fact that you're taking issue with, and making special fact verification requirements for this particular issue is very telling.

ColScott said...

Jesus-


FACTS MATTER. Can you understand that? As my BFF Matt indicates, we are trying to piece together a narrative. A story.

The main obstacle towards getting that story has been the psychotic mental state of BUGliosi. He didn't want us to get the whole true story just his disturbed version of it. It's like Sarah Koenig two years ago doing a 12 hour podcast on an obvious murderer. Or Netflix doing ten hours on two woman killers. They leave facts out because they want to own the narrative.

If we are to have a true narrative we need all facts. That is why Karen's lies about being Steven's date matters. It was a lie. She admitted as much. I paid half the money to the high school band because she established they went on a date when she was 16 but she was a Christian and admitted she was lying in behalf of the family. Steven was at the house to have sex with WG.

Now his sexuality is irrelevant to the murders. He was not killed by Tex because he was gay. That is why it is irrelevant to the murders but has pertinence to the narrative.

And again, no one ever has stopped by a stranger's house late at night to sell them electronics. Even the examples given are not the same. Why the holy fuck must you argue with "it could have happened?". It did not. Steven wanted to come see WG. He came late at night after work. They were intimate. Steven got killed. This is what happened.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

FACTS MATTER. Can you understand that?

It's not me that has a problem understanding that facts matter.

grimtraveller said...

ziggyosterberg said...

So you're not cool with Steven Parent being gay, unless we verify it?

But you're cool with Steven Parent being an unverified heterosexual? Because there's nothing wrong with that


If you came out and said that Steven Parent was up at Cielo for some pregnant flesh sex sessions with Sharon Tate or was knocking off Abigail Folger while Wogiciech was off procuring drugs, I'd say pretty much what I've said already and ask you to in some way verify it.
I think you see what it is you want to see, regardless of what I say. In a previous thread, when I pointed out that you'd corrected me on something and I was glad that you had, for you it was me being a troll.
Ho hum....

ziggyosterberg said...


grimtraveller said...

If you came out and said that Steven Parent was up at Cielo for some pregnant flesh sex sessions with Sharon Tate or was knocking off Abigail Folger while Wogiciech was off procuring drugs, I'd say pretty much what I've said already and ask you to in some way verify it.


Now you're comparing homosexuality to "pregnant flesh sex sessions with Sharon Tate" and "knocking off Abigail Folger while Wogiciech was off procuring drugs".

Jeez, Louise! I didn't know that homosexuality was such an outrageous claim against a person.

Keep digging, Grim.

orwhut said...


Grim said...

Yeah. On the August 10th autopsy and medical examiner's report, it was noted that "examination of fresh anal and buccal smear by light microscopy with reduced condenser setting showed no evidence of sperm."

Grim,
Thank you for that information. If I ever read it I'd forgotten.

orwhut said...

Those who think no one ever stopped by someone's house in the middle of the night to sell them electronics must be morning people. I'm often not well awake until the middle of the night and if I knew someone with similar sleep patterns I might do exactly that.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Beggin' You is now at #17 on Billboard's pop charts thanks to Matt's post

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

The Col is seldom wrong because he refuses to speak without fucking knowing what he is talking about.
They thought Steve WAS the caretaker


Mr. Humphrat said...

Col. did one of the murderers tell someone they thought Parent was the caretaker?

ColScott said...

Humpy
Not that I am aware of but it always seemed logical to me


Sometimes it's harder to argue with contradictory than it is with stupid.

Lynn said...

did not realize there was a Manson connection....but the connections seem to be everywhere

We even have tenuous connections to the story on the road that connects London with Wales....

Dreath said...

I also see another reason it matters that to me has less to do with the outcome then the process. If witnesses changed their story, made up times to fit the timeline to me, call me naive, that matters

I agree with that.

If someone encouraged Weber to say it was 1:00 a.m. what else were witnesses 'encouraged' to say

Did someone encourage Weber to say that ?
Does every detail emerge in an initial interview ? For example, in Bugliosi's book, when talking about Linda Kasabian and their initial interviews, he states that he told her to jot down anything she remembered that hadn't come up in those interviews and apparently, she ended up with a few notebooks of stuff. Constantly talking to people can work both ways. It can, as you point out, fill in the jigsaw pieces but can it not also act as a jogger of the memory ? Has something never occurred to you that you'd never consciously recollected before or have you ever remembered something that you'd not previously consciously thought of ?

Bugliosi was proud of his multiple interviews of witnesses. I think somewhere he says he interviewed them up to 50 times

I think he was both crowing about how hard he says he worked while pointing out how inept some of the police work was. Personally, I think some of his criticism of the police was unfair. But not all of it. There were things like Steve Zabriske being totally ignored or Jess Buckles ignoring the two detectives from LASO which really don't show the cops in a good light. On the other hand, it shouldn't be forgotten that they had Charlie on their suspect list over a month before Bugliosi was ever involved in the case and that they had put in a staggering number of hours of investigation. It should also be remembered that the net was drawing around the perps before Bugliosi was involved in the case.

We latch onto a theory and don't like it when someone chips away at it or just disagrees so we tend to rise up in defense

That's the nature of holding a position in a debate/discussion. It's also the reality of presenting a position in a debate/discussion. That's how we see if it can stand up.

ziggyosterberg said...

The only time anyone wants to deny or make the claim of the irrelevance of sexual matters to this case...

I don't see how one can not go into the sexual issues/matters pertaining to the entire saga, same way I don't see how one can leave the religious/spiritual, metaphysical/drug, racial/social and parental/familial sides out.

Dreath said...

Grim said: "Did someone encourage Weber to say that ?"

Frist Grim, I said IF someone did.

There is no proof.

I think I stated my opinion in another post: "Yes", someone did.

But again that's in my opinion.

Grim said: "Constantly talking to people can work both ways."

The studies I have seen are pretty uniform that multiple interviews effect eye witness memory in a negative way.

Part of my practice is representing kids. Some of those kids are the victims of abuse. It is a pretty hard and fast rule- I don't and typically shouldn't interview those kids even with training for precisely this reason.

grimtraveller said...

Dreath said...

The studies I have seen are pretty uniform that multiple interviews effect eye witness memory in a negative way

Have you found that to be part of your experience in your field or do colleagues attest to that ? If so, did you find or have there been found to be notable discrepancies between what may have been said in initial interviews and later ones ?
I can see what you're saying. I think some of it applies in some of the post incarceration books, interviews and hearings of the killers and Charlie. I do find it interesting though, that given how people can be shocked or traumatized by something they've witnessed and can keep replaying it in their minds, that it wouldn't at some point, in some cases, have the opposite effect as the one you describe.

Dreath said...

Grim,

Yes, all of the above.

If you are interested I'd recommend any of the studies by Elizabeth F. Loftus as a starting point.

It is really rather simple: questioning by a lawyer can alter the witness’s testimony because fragments of the memory may unknowingly be combined with information provided by the questioner, leading to inaccurate recall. The more times you interview a witness the greater the chance this can occur.

Trauma is generally believed to reduce memory accuracy. However, a study in 1986 (Yuille and Cutshall) concluded exactly the opposite- eye witness testimony is more reliable under high stress levels. The majority view however is that stress and trauma cause witnesses to recall odd details and forget 'the big picture'.

A place you can see this happening is in Atkins' testimony. She remembers a dog at the window.

Nothing I've seen, however, suggests that memory affected by trauma can be recovered later by going over it again and again so 'no' can't say I agree with you.

grimtraveller said...

@Dreath,

Interesting; thanks for that.


ziggyosterberg said...

The fact that you're taking issue with, and making special fact verification requirements for this particular issue is very telling

Just under a year ago, I did the same thing with William Cavanaugh, a parole officer, who wrote a book called "My life in crime" and claimed to be Charlie's parole officer for 5 months in '69, filled his section on Charlie with many inaccuracies and his own theories {some of which many have agreed with, for the record} and said in bold print that Steven Parent was on probation to LA county on a dope charge.
That's the only place I've ever come across it and if true, can that be verified ? Cavanaugh's record in just 6 pages didn't fill me with any confidence that it was accurate but I don't dismiss it ~ it could be true. However, given what he said in those pages {12 glaring inaccuracies in 6 pages, all of which are easily checkable, some of which are official}, I'm not in any hurry to declare as a fact that Steven Parent was on probation to LA county on a dope charge.

grimtraveller said...

Mr. Humphrat said...

Beggin' You is now at #17 on Billboard's pop charts thanks to Matt's post

Do we all get a collective royalty to share out ?

Mr. Humphrat said...

No I don't think they're going to credit Mansonblog with their good fortune :(