Monday, September 17, 2018

Was this Family member also an undercover operative for the LAPD?

Compare the pic of Family associate/member Karate Dave with the pic of an LAPD undercover operative named James Region Jarrett, from the same time period.   IMO, there is a close resemblance.


Karate Dave  (from the collection of Family mugshots)





The principle Tate homicide detectives Sgt Calkins and Sgt McGann, posing with their bud, James Jarrett, in 1970



Jarrett in 1984





--------------------------------

Karate Dave hung around the Family for a couple of months from about April to July of '69, and got arrested with them in Inyo County, on the way to Barker.  From Lt. Deemer's list:

murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/search/results?captcha_id=captcha_search&what_all=Karate+Dave&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0&search=Search
David Ralph Baker, dob 8-3-46 (possibly 2-9-50)
Dave
Karate Dave
David William Lipsett
Charley
Charles Ellis
David Lipsick

David Lipsett(aka Karate Dave) on Lt Deemer's list:
POB Vallejo, CA/Summerville So. Carolina
"Ident marks: numerous bullet wounds and scars"

murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/thread/1035/life-charles-manson-chapter-13
PAUL WATKINS, My Life With Charles Manson Chapter 13
"Karate Dave was another “heavy-duty” recruit who joined us during that period(Gresham time span). He was twenty-six, a Vietnam vet, and tough as nails. He had a plastic elbow (a vestige of his battlefield experience) and carried himself with an air of cold and utter confidence. Dave wasn’t big (five-nine, 160 pounds) but was built like a gymnast. While he seemed to like Charlie, he never tried to ingratiate himself. He was in it strictly for the goodies—all the women he could handle and what promised to be some excitement."  ....
"...Barbara Hoyt whom Charlie assigned to Karate Dave. ... She fell right in with the tempo of things at Gresham Street and eventually moved into a tree house in the backyard with Dave."

murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/search/results?captcha_id=captcha_search&what_all=Karate+Dave&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0&search=Search
PAUL WATKINS, My Life With Charles Manson  Chapter 15
"When I got back to Spahn’s, the girls were there. So was Dave; he had climbed out the bathroom window in Mojave during a court recess and had escaped the same night. A week later, Dave left the Family, and I never saw him again."  (about July of 1969)

How Karate Dave came to the Ranch is unknown, though it appears Charlie himself invited him in:

Manson: the life and times of Charles Manson, by Jeff Guinn c.2013
pg204
Charlie also said that he'd met someone who was a karate expert and would come out to Spahn to teach them how to fight hand-to-hand, but he never showed up.

Karate Dave was also the source of the Continental Bakery truck Manson drove around in:

Ed Sander, The Family, pg 190
Danny DeCarlo... bought the bread truck off of one Dave Lipsett, a friend of Manson.  DeCarlo traded some stolen motorcycle parts, including an engine, for the Twinkie truck.

One wonders where Manson first met this guy.

In this December, 1969 interview with police, Leslie Van Houten might be talking about this same fellow, who seems to have made quite the impression:

www.cielodrive.com/updates/leslie-van-houten-1969-lapd-interviews/
MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) Dave.
SERGEANT McGANN: What’s his last name?
MISS VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t know their last names.
...MISS VAN HOUTEN: But as I recall, I think Dave had left —
SERGEANT McGANN: What?
MISS VAN HOUTEN: If I recall, I’m pretty sure Dave left a long time ago.
SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.
MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well — But, of anybody, I’d suspect him.  That guy — whooooo
SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)
MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s one person you wouldn’t mess with..  for..  a..  second.

catscradle77 on Karate Dave over at truthontatelabianca.com
"I think he taught the kill schools or whatever you want to call them."

Did your tax dollars pay for these lessons on how to slaughter the TLB victims?


-----------------------------------


James Jarrett, 24 in 1969, was likewise a serious dude:

articles.latimes.com/1995-05-26/news/ls-6427_1_james-jarrett
In 1968 Green Beret Sgt. Jarrett(US Army) was honorably discharged* and became Officer Jarrett with the Los Angeles Police Department. At 24, with looks going on 19, he went undercover among Students for a Democratic Society(SDS) at ... Cal State Northridge(San Fernando State College). Then factions much more serious than war protesters--militant Weathermen and the Black Panthers. ...  He wore a beard, tiger-striped jungle fatigues and his easy cover was that of a disenchanted Vietnam veteran. He sold weapons and fragmentation grenades and put people away.  It lasted a year.














*[Or maybe he was just 'loaned out.'  Jarret apparently went right back to the Special Forces after his stint with the LAPD was over.  It should be noted that US Army intel people were being used to penetrate domestic political groups at this time:

Watergate by Fred Emery c.1994
"...the Johnson Administration.... had initiated a program of infiltrating protest groups with U.S. Army intelligence agents."]


jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/Security-CIA/CIA%200296.pdf
LA Free Press July 10 1970
Jarrett has been a 'hit' man—the leader of political assassination teams—in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. He had worked for the CIA in Latin America. He had come to the LA police to help train the Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) squad, which was responsible for the raid on the Black Panther Party headquarters last December(of 1969).

www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Bullet.asp
During the Vietnam Conflict, Jarrett was assigned to the 5th, 7th, and 10th Special Forces Groups.

 





There were a couple of other possible connections between Jarrett and the Manson case:


--Before his TLB trial, Vince Bugliosi had successfully prosecuted a group of campus radicals who took hostages at San Fernando State College (now known as Cal State Northridge) on November 4, 1968.  He may well have known of undercover officer Jarrett of the LAPD or interviewed him as part of his case.  



Rumble at San Fernando State


--Officer Jarrett's cover as a political radical was blown by July of 1970 after he tried to plant a case of grenades, allegedly stolen from the Long Beach Naval Ordinance Depot, among a group of Black Panther sympathizers called "The Friends of the Black Panthers."  Bugliosi tells a similar story of a Family member getting a case of grenades:

Helter Skelter, Bugliosi,  pg557
(from about 1-25-71 (the day the jury came back with their verdict))
"From a source close to the Family, LASO had heard what they initially believed to be an incredible tale. While working at Camp Pendleton Marine Base, one of Manson's followers had stolen a case of hand grenades. These were to be smuggled into court on "Judgement Day" and used to free Manson. Again, we didn't know precisely what the Family meant by Judgement Day. But by this time that at least part of the story was true. A Family member had been working in the arms depot at Pendleton, and after he quit, a case of hand grenades was missing."

Needless to say, this Family member was never identified.  Did the cops try to pull the ol' "case of grenades" gambit with the remnants of the Family back in '71 to provide an excuse to arrest anybody who was left, by resurrecting Karate Dave's connections to Charlie?


If Karate Dave and Jarrett are the same person, this then raises serious issues about the whole case.:

--Since Jarrett was targeting political radicals during his time with the LAPD, why would they assign him to penetrate the Family, who were totally non-political?

--Why would the Family be considered such an important target as to rate the attentions of this valuable undercover operative?

--How much did Jarrett learn about Charlie's plans for Helter Skelter?  Why didn't police then act on what they knew of the Family?

--If Karate Dave's job was to teach the "kill schools" (and you can bet that he had to contribute something in order to enjoy the attentions of the girls), doesn't that mean that the LAPD is complicit in the murders?  Yes, it does.

OO-ee-OO!

---------------------------------


"In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit."
     -- Zephaniah 1:9





============================ADDENDUM 9-18-18  ========================


Here is another mugshot of Karate Dave, supplied to us by CieloDrive:





============================ADDENDUM 9-18-18 ========================


Additional information re the real name of Karate Dave (thanks to DebS)


                                                               (Vallejo is in Solano County)



============================ADDENDUM 9-19-18 ========================

 The 'eyes' have it!


                                          Karate Dave

                                          Karate Dave


                                          Jarrett in '84


                                          Jarrett in 2017


============================ADDENDUM 9-20-18 ========================

David Ralph Baker? (thanks to DebS) 

1963 high school photo, when he would have been about 17







/
/

180 comments:

Doug Smith said...

https://www.nracarryguard.com/training/leadership/james-r-jarrett/

Scary

RudyWebersHose said...

Somply based on pics id say its the same guy, if it us it sure raises a hell of alot of questions, kind of puts a new spin on Guillorys claim that Spahn was being watched

christopher butche said...

Next summer there may be some answers...new book about Manson and the CIA...https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1785152076/?coliid=I3JU5HC2QCO61U&colid=2H174A1002MSD&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Matt said...

Another Tom O'Neil book, or the same one?


Robert C said...

The beard and the sun glasses makes it difficult to compare any technical points in the first two pics other than the mouth seems different. The second pic looks photo-cropped. Otherwise, the narrative descriptions make it sound plausible.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Very interesting Star. Makes me also think of Lyn’s book where she asked Charlie how he supposedly knew the ranch would be raided and he said he ordered it

AstroCreep said...

A few points given there’s a lot of speculation about “army intelligence agents” mentioned-

Posse Comitatus Act precludes our military from acting on US soil. US Army Special Forces (both now and back then) would not be able to operate in any capacity at rallies, protests, etc. The CIA has different title authorities and would be able to do as the above mentions, but definitely not US Special Forces.

In terms of it looking like him- could be the same guy but that’s not definite. Do we know how tall the detective is in the picture? If Karate Dave is 5’ 9” and 160lbs, how tall is the detective? Might help better determine.

I find it 100% plausible that IF IT’S THE SAME GUY, he’s working undercover for LAPD and using The Family to be a part of his cover- and also developing a possible case against the family. He may have probed a bit to see if the family was violently radicalized, try and sell them weapons etc. Would also explain how he and Charlie crossed paths and why he disappeared.


cielodrivecom said...

Karate Dave does look anything like that guy. Also, McGann and Calkins are not pictured in that second photo

starviego said...

cielodrivecom said...
"... McGann and Calkins are not pictured in that second photo."

Based on....?

cielodrivecom said...

Based on their appearance. Why do you think that’s them?

starviego said...

Compare to photo of Calkins and McGann here

http://murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/thread/553/lapd-investigators?page=1

I'd say they are the same.

cielodrivecom said...

Calkins in not in the photo at murdersofaugust69 either.

Calkins is interviewed here.

This is McGann

AstroCreep said...

Still blows my mind the news crew found the clothes.

cielodrivecom said...

Why does it blow your mind?

AstroCreep said...

Thinking in terms of the publicity that the case received- one would ASSume every available asset that LAPD could assemble would have been out combing the hills surrounding the area- or a task force (probably not a thing in those days) would’ve been able to do the work in piecing that together such as the news crew was able to do. Seems like something that LAPD was (and should have been) responsible for finding.

CATSCRADLE77 said...

If you check the article here: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/Security-CIA/CIA%200296.pdf there are quotes from Luke McKissack. Manson wanted McKissack to be his lawyer: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/30/local/la-me-luke-mckissack-20100430

He accepted the role but later resigned from working with Manson due to conflicts with the Black Panthers.

Manson thought Crowe was a Panther.

Lots of lawyer crossover here with this and with Caruso and Harrigan and Caruso/Cabellero with Atkins.

Makes my common sense hurt.

cielodrivecom said...

The news crew was only looking for the clothes because they had read the story about LAPD's unsuccessful search from the day prior. LAPD had 80 scouts helping them comb through the hills. Unfortunately for the LAPD, they elected to have Susan Atkins assist them with their search and she took them to a location nearly 5 miles away from where the clothes were found.

AstroCreep said...

My only recollection of the clothing being found is from Bugs’s account- and it being a slight slap in the face to LAPD- and watching the news footage you provided. In which, the detectives seem less than enthusiastic hahahaha

ColScott said...

Remember when Tom O'Neill did that TV interview where he talked about Manson's Karate school classes that Dave taught?

And we wonder why his book (announced in 2002 and promised for this year still he swears to god yes really no true)has not seen the light of day yet

Peter said...

But other than that, the story is 100% accurate.

ColScott said...

Mr Butche- your link is shit

ColScott said...

Mr. Butche's link corrected- https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chaos-Charles-Manson-History-Sixties/dp/1785152076/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1537214677&sr=8-29&keywords=charles+manson

some googling revealed


The Publisher is a UK Imprint - Amazon US does not list the book. It is scheduled to come out one week before the 50Th anniversary per UK amazon.

Little Brown supposedly was going to do US https://ew.com/books/2017/05/25/manson-murders-new-book-chaos/

I have mocked this book since forever. Even laughed when an ICM agent offered it to me like 6, 7 years ago. The title now indicates he is going the Maury CIA mind control route.

I have to say, this case does inspire the weirdos

jerseydevil said...

Inside the Manson Cult the lost tapes is on fox channel tonight at 8.pm


cielodrivecom said...

Well starviego, I found a clearer mugshot of Lipsett, taken when he was clean shaven and he does look a lot like this Jarrett fellow

starviego said...

I'm dying to see it. Is there any way we can insert it into my original post for all to see?

starviego said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
starviego said...

CATSCRADLE77 said...
Manson wanted McKissack to be his lawyer...

Manson wanted the same lawyer the Black Panthers had? Wow, what are the chances of that? Makes my common sense hurt too.

Brian G said...

Doubtful he was law enforcement. Didn't Hoyt chase after him cross country while he worked different crops?

Carlos said...

Fascinating article. At the risk of sounding overly negative, a few thoughts popped into my head:

1) Mr. Jarrett is clearly a real person, alive today, and no stranger to the press. Has he ever been specifically been asked about this and made a statement?

2) If Dave was photographed as part of being booked, I would expect him to also have been fingerprinted. None of us obviously have immediate access to that, let alone Mr. Jarrett’s prints to compare them to, but it’s interesting to me to think that there’s potentially much more there as evidence than a couple of old photos.

3) Mr. Jarrett seems to have no issue with being photographed or interviewed . It’s interesting that half a century after Karate Dave’s time with the Family, no Family member has mentioned anything. Sure, it could be as simple as not being aware of Mr. Jarrett or no one asking the right question. Karate Dave’s association with the Family lasted several months, and one would expect that Family members got a pretty good look at him. If one or more them came forward and stated that Jarrett’s photos from that era bear much more than a “close resemblance,” that would mean something.

4) You cite this passage from Guinn’s book:

Charlie also said that he'd met someone who was a karate expert and would come out to Spahn to teach them how to fight hand-to-hand, but he never showed up.

and then state

If Karate Dave's job was to teach the "kill schools" (and you can bet that he had to contribute something in order to enjoy the attentions of the girls), doesn't that mean that the LAPD is complicit in the murders?

Well, did he show up and teach killing or not? Furthermore, I don’t personally go directly from hand-to-hand fighting lessons to Murder University.

5) Facial comparison software is widely available and reasonably easy to use. Has anyone tried that yet? I think that would be a fascinating data point, especially if cielodrive.com has an extra photo of Dave.

RudyWebersHose said...

I dont put much stock in anything the Hamburglar says

RudyWebersHose said...

How do we know those were actually THE clothes? Al was a reporter here in St Louis and hes regarded as kind of a blowhard/big talker

RudyWebersHose said...

Is it so unbelievable that he looked one way with facial hair and his hair grown out and another way clean cut? People literally think im another person with a beard and clean shaven, its possible

Mr. Humphrat said...

I saw most of the Lost Tapes on TV tonight. I had never heard before the Peter Coyote story that he, Coyote, went in to see the President of the Hell's Angels in SF and they told him Manson had just been there and wanted them to go out and kill a bunch of black people to start a race war.
Also, I don't remember that Charlie had supposedly told Paul Watkins about 3 months before TLB that there would be gruesome murders in Beverly Hills.
And I'm not sure if I'd heard that one of the girls asked Mark Ross to kill the judge in the murder trial and he left soon after that.
A lot of the footage was stuff I've seen, especially from the RH film, but some extra stuff was good to see, including what appeared to be footage of Manson being taken into the Inyo county jail (at the time of capture?)

brownrice said...

Mr. Humphrat said...
I saw most of the Lost Tapes on TV tonight. I had never heard before the Peter Coyote story that he, Coyote, went in to see the President of the Hell's Angels in SF and they told him Manson had just been there and wanted them to go out and kill a bunch of black people to start a race war.


Much as I like Peter Coyote and enjoy his anecdotes, even he admits that he isn't the most accurate historian. He tells the same story in his book (which is a great read) but there he says this incident happened at the Beatles' Apple HQ in late '68 when he, Kesey and a posse of Haight Ashbury luminaries & SF Hell's Angels were happily ensconced there at George Harrison's (obviously not-very-well-thought-out) invitation. Someone must've pointed out to Peter that HS only "officially" kicked in sometime in '69 and he revised his memories to fit :-)

Mr. Humphrat said...

Yeah I was wondering, but maybe some truth in there? Heard a brief bit today about the Northwestern University Memory study and how every time we remember something the memory is changed by the act of remembering it. https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2014/02/how-your-memory-rewrites-the-past

brownrice said...

Very true, Mr Humphrat.

christopher butche said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
christopher butche said...

Thank you for taking the time to comment. Do you mean the contents of the book? It's the Watson tapes guy isn't it?

christopher butche said...

Beausoleil's 2016 parole hearing places at least one Hell's Angel at Spahn directly before the Hinman murder.

starviego said...

Carlos said...
"Has he ever been specifically been asked about this and made a statement?"

I tried but his email address was no longer operational.


Peter said...

Are credits from the kill school transferable?

RudyWebersHose said...

I cant believe i actually expected that Fox special to be anything different but if anything it was worse than most, too many absurdities to point out but the GLARING one was the complete omission of a certain young "hippie girl not cut from the same cloth as the others" lol what a pile of crap, id have gotten more truth from MSNBC talking about Trump

RudyWebersHose said...

Remember when you stab to pull upwards to do as much damage as possible, Charlie taught us that

RudyWebersHose said...

The reasons you never heard of those things is because they're complete bullshit, 50 years later and were just now hearing Watkins claim? Peter Coyote sounded like he was just parroting the same old late 60s narrative, "Charlie killed the sixties" garbage we've heard a million times now, with the exception of some cool Hendrickson footage i hadnt seen before this thing was a pile of crap, how do you do a TLB docu and leave Kasabian COMPLETELY OUT of the story? I mean literally not even one mention of her even when it came time for the trials, as to Mark Ross at least the other docu last year told viewers what his real name was, this one made it seem like his bullshit "Aesop Aquarius" alias was his real name and dont get me started on the "FBI serial killer expert" John Douglas and the other "criminal psychologist and Manson researcher" chick with dark hair lol

Carlos said...

I couldn’t resist the temptation to run these photos through some facial comparison software. Given the nature of these photos such as size, graininess, glasses versus no glasses, beard versus no beard in particular, expectations are necessarily low, but it’s free and easy, so why not.

I first cropped the second photo and digitally airbrushed out the leftover of the dude on the right. Then I uploaded them pair wise for comparison obtaining these results:

1) Comparing Dave’s mugshot to the 1970 photo of Jarrett produced a confidence of 0.18063, which is really low.

2) Comparing Dave’s mugshot to the 1984 photo of Jarrett produced a confidence of 0.18806, which is also really low

3) As a control, I compared the two photos of Jarrett obtaining a confidence of 0.20586. This is obviously much better than the above, but disappointingly low for two photos purporting to be the same dude while still a fairly young man.

In all cases, I confirmed the software properly located the actual face portion of each photo.

What does this tell us? It mostly tells us we need better photos. But it also tells us that for the photos we have, both photos of Jarrett are extremely poor matches for Karate Dave.

Offered for what it’s worth. If more photos are available, please post.

cielodrivecom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cielodrivecom said...

https://instagram.com/p/Bn4oOKfBdSY/

starviego said...

Thanks to Cielodrive for providing another photo of 'Karate Dave' for comparison. Everybody check the new photo in the original thread, which I've added to the bottom.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Nice photo it looks like the arrest date was Feb 15 1969 before he was with the family

ColScott said...

The Lost Tapes used perhaps 10 minutes of "new" Hendrickson footage. It allowed Gypsy and Snake to take up the mantle of "reformed" Manson liars. It gave exposure to the continued fraud of Mr. Douglas.

It was primetime garbage.

And where the fuck did that Bobby audio interview come from?

It was all bizarre. Robert never interviewed Manson so where did that audio tape come from?

Hendrickson's stepson made the deal with Naked TV that Robert would never have done in life.

RIP Robert. I'm sorry

cielodrivecom said...

Col, wasn’t that audio of Charlie talking taken from the recording session when he was yammering on and on with the engineer?

ColScott said...

CD

You mean the music recording session? Maybe. I am rusty from 4 years out of the hardcore game.


"Unseen and unheard for 40 years" except if you bought the two dvds on ebay.

No mention of Kasabian at all, or BUG or anything. Poor dead TJ dragged out as the resident retard looking dude and Clem just in a background scene.

Carlos said...

starviego said...

Thanks to Cielodrive for providing another photo of 'Karate Dave' for comparison. Everybody check the new photo in the original thread, which I've added to the bottom.

Yes, thanks. This is a wonderfully sharp photo for comparison purposes. FWIW, to me it is a very strong match to the other mugshot, and facial comparison software concludes both mugshots are the same person, which is no surprise. Facial comparison software still concludes there is no match to either photo of Mr. Jarrett, but neither photo is really optimal for comparison purposes.

A bit of investigating Jarrett’s career further discovers that he was the subject of a 1984 documentary in which he receives ample screen time, and this documentary is available for rental for $4.99; I’m watching now, and despite the passage of 14 or so years, he’s the spitting image of his 1970 photo. More importantly, watching him at length like this tells me he is simply not the person in the mugshots.

https://jonbangcarlsen.com/filmography/film/phoenix-bird/
https://www.nytimes.com/1984/08/29/movies/danish-phoenix-and-neighbor-s-son.html

cielodrivecom said...

Yes, the recording session. I’m no expert on his music but to me that sounded like it was taken from that.

As for the unseen and unheard for 40 years claims, they sure hammered that into your head with great repetition. But hey, we are living in a post-fact world. Facts have little value, it’s all about spin these days

ColScott said...

Yes

A hundred percent Gypsy, Mark and Snake got paid. I wonder who else

Mr. Humphrat said...

My recollection is RH said he snuck a movie camera into the jail and recorded Manson although I thought it was in a visiting area not in his cell. That was in the documentary last night, his rap about “ it isn’t in your courtroom” and “everything is sneaky in sneakyville” I think they also had some of the audio from the recording studio

ColScott said...

I know the segment you refer to
you may be right
it was my understanding that was shot by someone else

There was no Manson waiver when Cory and I excavated Hendrickson's file cabinet

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

It was primetime garbage

We get our chance to view it next week on the 27th.
Is it worth getting in the popcorn ?

And where the fuck did that Bobby audio interview come from?

What sort of stuff did he say ? In that "Final Words" documentary from last year, there was audio of Bobby talking. It may have been part of a recorded phone conversation.

Robert never interviewed Manson

What sort of stuff was said on the audio ? According to "Death To Pigs" RH and Leo Rivers built a camera in a briefcase which was snuck into jail and Charlie was both filmed and tape recorded. Some of what he said is included in the book.

Mr. Humphrat said...

I had never heard before the Peter Coyote story that he, Coyote, went in to see the President of the Hell's Angels in SF and they told him Manson had just been there and wanted them to go out and kill a bunch of black people to start a race war

While it is rather hard to believe this happened, it's not a million miles removed from what George Grap, a deputy with LASO, testified that happened the day after Gary Hinman was killed. Late at night he saw Charlie lying in wait in a dune buggy and Charlie told him he was watching out for Black Panthers and "you cops ought to get smart and join up with us; those guys are out to kill you just like they are out to kill us and if we join together, we could solve this problem. We've got to stop them before they stop us." Kanarek was making the point that the officer hadn't associated Charlie with the TLB case at the time, getting at something he did throughout the trial, that the prosecution put words in witnesses' mouths, but Grap replied "No, but then again, it is the idea ~ it was so erratic, the idea of joining the police with whatever you want to call it, a motorcycle oriented gang, in the hopes of combatting the Black Panthers. It seemed outlandish and because it was so outlandish, in my memory, it just kept reoccurring."
Perhaps Charlie had been trying to drum up numbers and later, the Hells Angel guy conflated it with all the race war talk.

I don't remember that Charlie had supposedly told Paul Watkins about 3 months before TLB that there would be gruesome murders in Beverly Hills

RudyWebersHose said...

The reasons you never heard of those things is because they're complete bullshit, 50 years later and were just now hearing Watkins claim?

It's there in "Helter Skelter" ¬> "We now had evidence that 6 months before the Tate-LaBianca murders Charles Manson was telling the Family exactly how the murders would occur, complete even to writing 'pigs' in the victims' own blood." On the same page there is Gregg Jakobson saying "He used to explain how it would be so simple to start out. A couple of Black people ~ some of the spades from Watts ~would come up into the Bel Air and Beverly Hills district...up in the rich piggy district...and just really wipe some people out, just cutting bodies up and smearing blood and writing things on the wall in blood...all kinds of super-atrocious crimes that would really make the White man mad...." Brooks Poston adds some bits to it then a couple of pages later Bugliosi & Gentry write "While at the Gresham Street house, Manson had told Watkins that the atrocious murders would occur that summer."
In Watkins' own book, he states "Things got more intense, Charlie’s raps more elaborate and graphic: 'You know what’s gonna happen one of these nights…the blacks from Watts are gonna break into the houses of some rich white piggies in Beverly Hills and start wasting them…you know…and it ain’t gonna be very pretty…like they’ll be vicious…they’ll chop them up and mutilate them and fling blood around; then whitey is gonna retaliate…'"
It's nothing new.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Well Grim I’d have to watch it again but I thought Watkins more specifically said Charlie told him the family was going to do it
What I saw of it I would say get the popcorn ready it is pretty good even though you’ve seen and heard most of it before
Having said that I didn’t hear one mention of Linda Kasabian even when they list who went to Cielo Drive and the interviews focus mostly on Gypsy, Snake, Bobby over the phone, archival interviews from the Manson movie and the DA who I’m ashamed to say I’m forgetting his name now, oh and Aesop Aquarian.
Bobby’s interview what I heard of it he said he had no good reason to kill Hinman, he said he messed up his own soul I forget the words he used, he says he’ll never forget Manson’s words to him that he cut Gary so Bobby would know how to be a man. I didn’t hear Bobby say Gary sold him drugs but the narrator says it.

starviego said...


Well if Karate Dave isn't some guy named James Jarrett, who is he? Lt. Deemer's list has two probable names:

'David William Lipsett' or 'David Ralph Baker'

Both these people were apparently real people, according to additional information taken from government data bases supplied to me by DebS, which I added to my original thread. Note the names and birthdates match what Deemer had on his list, and one of the birth places.

Lipsett was in the Army, though when is unknown. He was 19 in the summer '69, which seems kind of young to have received "numerous bullet wounds and scars." (presumably from being in Vietnam)

Baker would have been 22 in the summer of '69, which gives him more time. But he was in the Marines, not the Army.

So if Karate Dave was in reality David Ralph Baker, how did the correct biographical info on Lipsett get onto Deemer's list? (And vise versa) It sounds like the cops were unable to ID Karate Dave in full.

One thing is certain: after his stint at the ranch he disappears completely--there is no police, prosecutor, or media interview with him in existence.

ps
Thanks again DebS for your valuable contributions to this thread!

cielodrivecom said...

In court, Kay refers to him as David Baker

RudyWebersHose said...

As usual dumbass youre wrong, i said how come in 50 years we havent heard OF THE SPECIFIC FUCKING INCIDENT HE REFERENCES IN THE SHOW,,im talking about the specific recording of him saying what he said with the interviewer asking him how long before the murders and him saying "three months"

RudyWebersHose said...

And before you bring up Bugliosi and Gentrys claim about what Paul supposedly said at the Gresham St house thats heresay which means without corroboation it didnt happen

RudyWebersHose said...

Nothing personal but how can you consider it "good" when such a key figure as Kasabian is completely left out of the show without even one mention of her name and you have clowns like this John Douglas assmunch claiming Charlie is a "serial killer" and saying shit like "well he had the hair and the beard and you know hes saying things and then its like yeah....hes Jesus Christ"? How does an FBI agent not know the difference between what "serial killings" and spree killings are and the fact that he calls a guy who wasnt on the scene when anyone was killed a "serial killer"? Lol

RudyWebersHose said...

Beausoliel was the only believable part of this pile of shit, hes the only one of the killers who seems to accept responsibility for what he did and sees his situation realistically, his explanation of Hinmans murder is the only logical thing ive heard from any of the killers, he thought if he dropped Gary off at the hospital he would turn him in and hed go to prison and he didnt want to risk it so he killed him, cut and dry and makes sense, no helter skelter bullshit, no holes in the desert, no book of Revelations just a real world selfish reason why people kill each other every day and i gaurantee you there is just as simple an answer to both Cielo and Waverly

Terrapin said...

I was so excited for The Lost Tapes but it certainly wasn't what i expected. I'd love nothing more than a copy of that 100 hours of footage (except maybe a copy of the alleged porno they filmed!)

brownrice said...

Mr. Humphrat said...
My recollection is RH said he snuck a movie camera into the jail and recorded Manson although I thought it was in a visiting area not in his cell. That was in the documentary last night, his rap about “ it isn’t in your courtroom” and “everything is sneaky in sneakyville” I think they also had some of the audio from the recording studio


Here in Oztralia, I'm not sure when we'll get to see the "Lost Tapes" but judging by the trailer I just watched on Fox com, the Charlie bits most definitely came from Hendrikson's first movie. At the risk of being gratuitously self-promotional here's an audio track from last year that also features the same interview... I've always thought it was a pretty good rave...
https://paganlovecult.bandcamp.com/track/everythings-illegal
Yeah, yeah... I know... hippy shit :-)

Getting back to Starviego's original post, I find it pretty interesting that Karate Dave's actual name seems kinda hard to pin down... even for the prosecution. Pretty much what you'd expect for an undercover. I'm not convinced one way or the other but (to me) it's certainly believable... and that second mug shot does actually look a lot like the other dude. Facial recognition software isn't that reliable... particularly when in one photo, the head is leaning back from the camera and in the other it's leaning towards it. Depending on the lens, that kinda discrepancy can change the facial proportions quite a bit.

Gorodish said...

Mr. Humphrat wrote :

I saw most of the Lost Tapes on TV tonight. I had never heard before the Peter Coyote story that he, Coyote, went in to see the President of the Hell's Angels in SF and they told him Manson had just been there and wanted them to go out and kill a bunch of black people to start a race war.

Peter Coyote, whom I like, is talking out of his ass on that one. He mentions his friend, Frisco Angels president Pete Knell, was the person who Manson came to with the race war thing. Pete Knell stepped down from the Frisco Angels hierarchy in 1967 to start his own HA chapter in Sonoma. Manson was probably just fresh out of the slammer at this point in time, with the "race war" two years down the road.....

brownrice wrote :

Much as I like Peter Coyote and enjoy his anecdotes, even he admits that he isn't the most accurate historian. He tells the same story in his book (which is a great read) but there he says this incident happened at the Beatles' Apple HQ in late '68 when he, Kesey and a posse of Haight Ashbury luminaries & SF Hell's Angels were happily ensconced there at George Harrison's (obviously not-very-well-thought-out) invitation. Someone must've pointed out to Peter that HS only "officially" kicked in sometime in '69 and he revised his memories to fit :-)

Peter was definitely off on that one, although the story of the two Frisco Angels going to Apple HQ in 1968 is classic. The two Angels, former Frisco president Pete Knell (earlier immortalized in Hunter Thompson's "Hell's Angels" as "Pete The Drag Racer") and Bill "Sweet William Tumbleweed" Fritsch (the Hell's Angel in the Rolling Stones documentary film "Gimme Shelter" who verbally spars with the Jefferson Airplane's Paul Kantner during some early concert HA violence), took up a naive George Harrison on his offer of an invitation to London and invaded Apple headquarters, giving the Brits a real life dose of California Hell's Angels. Sweet William Fritsch also had a Manson connection, appearing in the bizarre Kenneth Anger short film "Invocation of a Demon Brother" with Bobby Beausoleil. But there definitely was no Manson/Pete Knell dialogue about a race war. Fox must have written a decent check to Peter Coyote for that "revelation".

Terrapin said...

brownrice said...
Here in Oztralia, I'm not sure when we'll get to see the "Lost Tapes"

I'm in Oz too but i caught it on youtube it might still be there

brownrice said...

Terrapin said...
I'm in Oz too but i caught it on youtube it might still be there


Cheers Terrapin.

brownrice said...

Wow, what a truly awful documentary. Linda Kasabian gets erased from the story… Tex only rates a cursory mention… a bunch of career talking heads channel Vincent Bugliosi... and Stephen Kay reckons Sharon Tate was hung from the ceiling. Yes, I see what they mean by “shocking new revelations”. Without the Hendrickson footage, there wouldn’t have been much at all… and most of that was in the original 1973 documentary. As Mr Humph, the Col & Cielodrive all said previously, the other bits of Charlie sound like they came from the Despar recording sessions… or maybe Bruce doing his notorious Charlie impression?

Mr. Humphrat said...

I couldn't tell if the audio, of Paul answering the question how long before the murders and he answers three months, was from a police interview or left over from the Manson documentary.
RWH you asked how can I say it's good, it's because I enjoyed it despite the major omissions and flaws. I enjoyed seeing some footage I hadn't seen and the Peter Coyote clip even though it seems to be BS. I suppose it did get my hope up that they were putting together some new evidence of Charlie's plan to do a Helter Skelter type thing. I know other people think it stinks.

Mr. Humphrat said...

By the way, Star, sorry your excellent post got off in another direction so much. I still appreciate it. And I wouldn't mind trying some of that facial recognition software sometime if someone can recommend one to me.

starviego said...

brownrice said...
"Karate Dave's actual name seems kinda hard to pin down... even for the prosecution."

I also find his timing suspicious. He shows up just when the shit really starts to get crazy:

"It wasn't until the last four months that things started getting really weird."
--LVH

And he disappears just before the shit really hit the fan.

starviego said...

Mr. Humphrat said...
"By the way, Star, sorry your excellent post got off in another direction so much."

No worries. All threads tend to go off topic.

Carlos said...

Mr. Humphrat said...

... facial recognition software ...

I did it the easy, cheesy and free way:

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/cognitive-services/face/

Jenn said...

Rudy’s Hose wrote:
“id have gotten more truth from MSNBC talking about Trump”

If this was another place, I’d ask you to supply some of MSNBC’s lies about Trump, but this isn’t another place, so I won’t.

Carlos said...

brownrice said...

Facial recognition software isn't that reliable... particularly when in one photo, the head is leaning back from the camera and in the other it's leaning towards it. Depending on the lens, that kinda discrepancy can change the facial proportions quite a bit.

Ignore the facial comparison software at this point and drop five bucks on the documentary featuring Mr. Jarrett quite prominently. You’ll get his face from every possible angle and with all sorts of expressions. That’s what convinced me overwhelmingly that he’s simply no match for Karate Dave’s mugshots.

grimtraveller said...


RudyWebersHose said...

As usual dumbass

When I'm playing the bass, the notes do tend to go dum, dum, dum.....depending on what I'm putting down. The temptation is to slightly overplay but the song that requires it needs something simple but ultimately effective. It's a very disciplined style, dum bass.

youre wrong, i said how come in 50 years we havent heard OF THE SPECIFIC FUCKING INCIDENT HE REFERENCES IN THE SHOW,,im talking about the specific recording of him saying what he said with the interviewer asking him how long before the murders and him saying "three months"

That incident is relayed in "Helter Skelter" and "My life with Charles Manson." Bugliosi & Gentry have it down as "late May or early June" and the tenor of the conversation was that "the only thing that black knows is what whitey has told him....I'm going to have to show him how to do it." In Watkins' book, he has it as late June and he states "We stopped at the corral gate and looked in at the horses. Charlie climbed up and sat on the top rung of the fence, looking down at me. 'I’ll tell ya, blackie never did anything without whitey showin’ him how.' I looked up at Charlie, and he winked. 'Helter-Skelter is coming down. But it looks like we’re gonna have to show blackie how to do it.' My blood ran cold. The words echoed in my ear. 'Show blackie how to do it !' I knew exactly what Charlie meant. All the horror I had been sensing flooded my being; it was like an instant nightmare lived out in silence."

It wasn't new to me. It's been in the public domain for at least 44 years. As soon as I saw what Mr Humphrat wrote about Watkins' claim, I remembered I'd seen it in a couple of places.
But with the plethora of info attached to this case, not to mention all the rumours that do the rounds as facts, it's easy to forget some minutiae. There's enough of it to forget.

And before you bring up Bugliosi and Gentrys claim about what Paul supposedly said at the Gresham St house thats heresay which means without corroboation it didnt happen

Even if I were to accept that, and I don't, but even if I were to, that's really besides the point. Let's actually accept wholeheartedly for a moment that Watkins was lying and that it didn't happen. That's got nothing to do with the point you say you were making because even if it's a lie, it's been out there since 1970 and easily available to anyone that reads a couple of aforementioned books since 1974 and 78. So as often happens, your attempt to bury someone....well, let me just be a gent and say "has rebounded on you."
Oh, and it was at Spahn, not Gresham. The Gresham stuff was corroborated by Brooks Poston.


RudyWebersHose said...

Believe it or not i actually like Kay because i think he genuinely cares about victims of crime unlike Vince but the more he makes statements like you outlined and stuff like "Manson was a reader of Nietzsche" you have to wonder about the guy

RudyWebersHose said...

Again IDIOT where did he say "there would be a murder in Beverly Hills where there would be blood everywhere and writing in blood on the walls", we all know about Charlies pig and blackie bullshit talk but the docu played Watkins ON FUCKING TAPE saying Charlie told him there would be a specific incident like that, more specifically i asked if this tape has been in existance for almost 50 years why are we just now hearing about it?

RudyWebersHose said...

Lol "corroborated by Brooks Poston", that statement alone belongs in the comedy hall of fame

David said...

RWH said: "Believe it or not i actually like Kay because i think he genuinely cares about victims of crime unlike Vince but the more he makes statements like you outlined..."

If you mean this one:

brown rice said: "and Stephen Kay reckons Sharon Tate was hung from the ceiling"

Kay gets that from Noguchi. With the able assistance of defense counsel Noguchi testified that Sharon Tate had been 'suspended' by the rope (hung) for a brief time.

RudyWebersHose said...

And also Grim before you bring up Jakobsens statement its important to know WHEN he made the statement about bloody bodies in Beverly Hills, if it was made after Mansons being implicated and ESPECIALLY if it was after he talked to Vince then it holds no weight

RudyWebersHose said...

Yeah problem is though this docu or at least his part in it was just filmed recently and we know now that she wasnt "hung from rafters", she may have been barely lifted off her feet for a split second when trying to secure everyone but she for damn sure wasnt "hung"

Peter said...

I would actually rate Brooks as one of the more reliable witnesses. Although he was exiled to Barker Ranch during a crucial point in the run-up to TLB, he was very observant and remembered a lot of detail that is corroborated by a number of other witnesses.

Peter said...

By the way, Paul testifying as to what Charlie says at Charlie's trial is not hearsay. It is an admission of a party opponent that is specifically carved out from the rule against hearsay. And the way Paul tells it, even if it was hearsay it might come in under the exception for Then-Existing Mental, Emotional, or Physical Condition. "My blood ran cold ... I knew exactly what Charlie meant."

If you want to understand the hearsay rule. Read these two Federal Rules of Evidence. It's actually interesting reading even for a non lawyer.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_801

https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_803

starviego said...

Carlos said...
\ "... drop five bucks on the documentary featuring Mr. Jarrett quite prominently. You’ll get his face from every possible angle and with all sorts of expressions. That’s what convinced me overwhelmingly that he’s simply no match for Karate Dave’s mugshots."

I saw the film. I'm not convinced yet. Remember this movie was made 15 years after the Karate Dave mugshots.

RudyWebersHose said...

Lol well the bar sure aint very high then

beauders said...

Hendrickson said that he believed "Kevin" was a police informant. "Kevin" started hanging with the Family due to the press coverage of Manson and the Family's commission of the murders and then up and disappears one day. I guess anything is possible and "Dave" could have been a plant. It would have been interesting to bring this theory to Barbara Hoyt but she died shortly after Manson. Stephen Kay gets a pass with me on just about everything for putting Bittaker on death row. I do think he was wrong to get Van Houten on felony murder due to taking property from the LaBianca's home but of course that was his job and I really never cared for his heavy hand at the parole hearing but he was very aware of what the victims families went through after the murders. I would like to read a book by Kay and I would bet that we will see it someday.

grimtraveller said...

Gorodish said...

going to Apple HQ

Up until last year, I used to do deliveries around that area and I had so many customers on Savile Row. I used to go past no.3 almost every day for 20 years and you'd still get tourists visiting outside and they'd be taking steps back to try and catch the different angles and work out where the rooftop concert would have been.

starviego said...

All threads tend to go off topic

Sometimes, the off topic stuff is what makes the thread come alive.

I also find his timing suspicious. He shows up just when the shit really starts to get crazy...And he disappears just before the shit really hit the fan

That almost implies that there were dates already attached to "the shit."

RudyWebersHose said...

How do we know those were actually THE clothes?

6 out the 7 items found were identified by the person that was left out of the documentary.


RudyWebersHose said...

And of course why shouldn't we believe someone who stole her friends money and left her infant child with people she knew killed people, she'd never lie or let someone "coach" her answers lol

RudyWebersHose said...

By the way if anyone knows the song that is playing when the Hendrickson footage goes out to Barker and theyre driving around on a dune buggy and running around on the sand dunes id love to know, its immediately before they cut to Gypsy talking about the Michigan loader being burned

starviego said...

beauders said...
"It would have been interesting to bring this theory to Barbara Hoyt but she died shortly after Manson."

If someone who was there in the summer of '69 would drop five bucks and watch the film, they could probably make the ID, or disprove the theory.

RudyWebersHose said...

It sounds Motown-ish

David said...

RWH said: "And also Grim before you bring up Jakobsens statement its important to know WHEN he made the statement about bloody bodies in Beverly Hills, if it was made after Mansons being implicated and ESPECIALLY if it was after he talked to Vince then it holds no weight"

Just so I am clear going forward, are you actually saying any statement by any witness after Manson was indicted 'holds no weight'?

If you are then I guess the only ones you consider are Doyle, Harrington, Dawson, etc.?

I assume not but want to make sure I understand.

grimtraveller said...

RudyWebersHose said...

more specifically i asked if this tape has been in existance for almost 50 years why are we just now hearing about it?

Who gives a bike pump ? The info is old hat. In fact, it's older than you.

"corroborated by Brooks Poston", that statement alone belongs in the comedy hall of fame

Well, I do my best for you, Hose.
On the weightier matter, being a self confessed zombie doesn't prevent one from being able to corroborate a story, just because you got nothing. The bar may not have been high but so what ? Not every Olympic champ breaks the world record or even the Olympic one.

Peter said...

I would actually rate Brooks as one of the more reliable witnesses

For a while there, he seemed to have a real feistiness about him when it came to people like Charlie or Bugliosi that carried themselves with any authority. I pick up a somewhat antagonistic attitude from him towards Bugliosi when he was testifying. Unfortunately I don't have the second part of it to see if it carries on but if it was there, it's gone by the Watson trial.

starviego said...

I saw the film. I'm not convinced yet

Shocker ! ☺

grimtraveller said...

RudyWebersHose said...

Again IDIOT

You do say the nicest things, Hose.
As much as a Black guy can, I'm blushing ! Or maybe even blashing...😆

David said...

The problem I have with James Jarrett as Karate Dave is timing.

On October 2, 1969 he had his 15 minutes of fame when he set up Donald Freed and Shirley Sutherland (Donald's ex-wife) with the case of grenades. Freed was the 'leader' of The Friends of the Black Panthers and Sutherland was the money for the grenades. A member of FBP had been raped and Freed wanted mace for the members. Jarret substituted grenades and showed up an hour later with treasury cops (ATF). The case was dismissed and the judge was less than happy with Jarret and the US breaking the same law (stealing the grenades) that they arrested Freed and Sutherland for. Jarrett was 'out of the country at the request of the government' and unable to testify.

According to Jarrett his connection to the BPP was Elmer "Geronimo" Pratt the leader of LA BPP after the assassination of. 'Bunchy' Carter and John Huggins in January 1969.

Jarrett claims he was in the same CIA backed- military assassination squad in Vietnam.

Jarrett makes almost zero appearance in any book I have read either written by former BPP members or about the BPP, except this incident. Allegedly- again according to Jarrett- he was a gun source of the BPP while under cover- setting them up.

The timing: by every account I have read he was with the BPP during TLB and after and certainly was in LA in September until at least October 2nd.

If anyone does connect with him you might ask about the murder of Frank "Franco" Diggs. In late December 1968 Diggs was murdered in an alley- stabbed multiple times and shot by a 9mm. According to what I found he had $1500 cash in his pocket but his usual 45 guns (he carried two) were missing. Diggs was the gun-dope buyer for LA BPP and given Jarrett claims he had the same job....

David said...

"Donald" as in Donald Sutherland's ex wife

RudyWebersHose said...

Lets put it this way when it feeds directly into the story Vince tried to weave and knowing his way of coaxing or "coaching" witnesses id say in Gregs case on that statement its less than believable

RudyWebersHose said...

Also lets put it this way, if Greg actually heard Manson make that statement don't you think Greg would have told his fellow Golden Penetrators, Terry and Dennis?

Mr. Humphrat said...

Thanks Carlos I will give that a try

Carlos said...

I noticed the post has been updated to focus attention on the eyes; very interesting approach. Here’s what I see when I focus my attention on the eyes.

In both straight-on photos of Dave, the eyes are noticeably above the ears. In all photos of Mr. Jarrett, as well as what I saw in the documentary when I hit the pause button, the eyes are set much lower with respect to the ears. This is especially noticeable in his 2017 photo; It’s also noticeable in his younger photos.

I take this as further, specific evidence that Jarrett isn’t Karate Dave based on the images we have.

hippie doll said...

RudyWebersHose said...
How do we know those were actually THE clothes?

grimtraveller said...
6 out the 7 items found were identified by the person that was left out of the documentary.

Out of curiosity, are there any pictures of the articles of clothing? I think I've only seen the dark blue velour turtle neck and possibly 1 pair of blue jeans.
Are there any other pictures of the other clothing found/used on the night of Cielo?

RudyWebersHose said...

Theres pics on cielodrive.com, Bo has a really awesome photo archive on there

starviego said...

David said...
" According to Jarrett his connection to the BPP was Elmer "Geronimo" Pratt..."

Where does he say that?

As for the timing: Karate Dave left the ranch in about July of '69, which would have freed him up to work other cases after that.

Peter said...

Charlie is sitting right there in the courtroom. He can have his lawyers ask Paul any questions about what Charlie might have said on cross examination and Charlie can take the stand and explain it himself if he wants. Then the jury can decide if they want to believe Paul or if they want to believe Charlie.

starviego said...


Jarrett has some odd similarities to Charlie:

--He may not even be aware of his real name, nor ever met his father:

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-05-26/news/ls-6427_1_james-jarrett
...Jarrett left Canada at 15 for a calmer place, Sun Valley in the San Fernando Valley. There were horses and friendships with cowboys who trained them for the movies... When Jarrett graduated from high school and a final foster home, his gift to himself was an escape from the past of assorted given names--by choosing a name of his own.
[He got the name 'James Jarrett' from some historical novel.]

--Quote from the movie:
"I was an orphan. .. I went to a lot of foster homes. In many of these places I was severely physically abused. A lot of very deliberate physical torture. I had the misfortune to be raised in what I call a fundamentalist Christian home for a number of years."

starviego said...


David said...
"Jarrett makes almost zero appearance in any book I have read either written by former BPP members or about the BPP, except this incident. Allegedly- again according to Jarrett- he was a gun source of the BPP while under cover- setting them up."

He does show up in this one article from the BP newspaper:

The Black Panther, 9-8-73
(Sept '71) In Los Angeles the offices of Panther legal investigator Michael McCowan were burglarized by a team composed of local and federal agents. The leader of the team was the CIA agent-provocateur James R. Jarrett who the next year was working with (E. Howard)Hunt in Panama in preparation for the assassination of that country's President. ....
In Los Angeles the SWAT SQUAD (Special Weapons and Tactics) that struck a sleeping Panther office just four days after the murder of Fred Hampton(12-8-69), was led by James R. Jarrett, the CIA penetration agent in the Los Angeles Police Department. Jarrett is presently stationed with a Special Forces unit in Panama. Jarrett was involved in the Colson, Hunt, Liddy Gemstone plan to assassinate the President of Panama in 1971.

No mention of Jarrett dealing any weapons to them. The author/editor may not have known of this, or were too embarrassed to mention their association with a police plant.

David said...

Star, I’ll have to find it for you.

Mr. Humphrat said...

David William Lipsett was married in Ventura September 1969 and it looks like he and that woman had children in Ventura and Los Angeles in 1973 and 1976

David said...

I was wrong about Jarrett stating he operated with Geronimo Pratt in Vietnam.

LA Times article, Panthers vs. Police, Where They Stand Today, June 21, 1970:

“He [Jarrett], like Geronimo, had served as a government assassin in Vietnam, according to what he told people in Los Angeles. “I was a hit man for the CIA” he said.

“Pratt said he trained Jarrett when he was taking Green Beret training at Ft. Bragg.”

That article also says Jarrett infiltrated the FoBPP six months before the raid on BPP headquarters on December 8, 1969, which would put his association with them as commencing in May- July, 1969.

“Six months earlier when his now short cropped blond hair was long and his dress hippie, the tall-muscular youth infiltrated a sister organization of the Panthers, The Friends of the Black Panthers.

Donald Freed in a Free Press article, July 24, 1970, A Case of Pre-dawn, No Knock Nazism, tends to corroborate the time frame.

“But after six months, instead of provoking the Friends into nihilistic violence, he [Jarrett] was in danger of being humanized by our acceptance of his problems and our encouragement of his real teaching contribution [first aid and self-defense].”

Freed places this observation just before the grenade planting event that led to his arrest.

It is interesting that he was teaching FoBPP members self-sefense.

But notice: the LA Times article describes Jarrett as blond and tall-muscular. Deemers describes David Lipsett….Karate Dave as 5’11” 160 brn brn [brown].

Matthew Record said...

Is Karate Dave still alive? It may say somewhere in this blog but I didn't see it.

Mr. Humphrat said...

He apparently died in 2003 (David Lipsett) although MyLife has him still living in Torrance I think he did die

starviego said...

David said...
"... instead of provoking the Friends into nihilistic violence"

So his job was to provoke people into nihilistic violence?

I KNOW I've heard that somewhere before.

David said...

Starviego said: "So his job was to provoke people into nihilistic violence?"

Here’s some quotes from the Freed article- the second is just before the one I quoted before:

“Jarrett talked freely about atrocities he had committed in Vietnam, and of his current life as a
cat burglar and gun runner. His acting-out personality was plain (to use the psychological vocabulary that is part of the problem, since it is precisely these "cases" that become, if they are allowed to, the shock troops for fascism); he did not conceal his racism, male supremacy and hunger for violence.”

*****

“Jarrett suggested that Ron Karenga (of the black cultural nationalist group US) be killed. He tried to organize a band of "Red Berets" to assassinate rightwing leaders. He suggested that school buildings be blown up. He proposed the killing of anti-Castro Cubans, and the grenading of their headquarters. He proposed stealing guns. He urged a bank robbery. He wanted to set up SIX teams (a military acronym for Sabotage, Intelligence and Experiment). He wanted to set up target files of plans for dynamiting public buildings and sabotaging aerospace facilities. He complained bitterly that all the radicals only read books and leaflets while he had to have a revolution, no matter which side he fought on.

But after six months........”

starviego said...

Mr. Humphrat said...
"David William Lipsett was married in Ventura..."

According to the California Marriage Index 1960-85 (thanks DebS)
Lipsett was married Sept 20, 1969 to Sigrid Holsonbake , age 18.

If Lipsett dumped Barbie Hoyt in July, would he be so quick to get married eight weeks later?

Carlos said...

starviego said...

If Lipsett dumped Barbie Hoyt in July, would he be so quick to get married eight weeks later?

The marriage is a matter of record and easy to accept as fact. Is your point that a marriage so suddenly after his time with the Family argues against Dave Lipsett being Karate Dave? If so, you do raise an interesting point. Since the children weren’t born for several years, a marriage based on a pregnancy is unlikely, unless something happened to the baby or there is actually a third child.

Whirlwind romances do exist, and we have no facts before us one way or the other about how long Lipsett might have actually known his bride-to-be. But I think I see your point.

Records show that David Ralph Baker didn’t marry until November of 1970. Plenty of time to have left the Family and met the love of his life.

Given the ages of both Lipsett and Baker, a high school yearbook photo ought to be conclusive proof one way or the other. Has anyone had any luck there yet? I’ve read that many military ID photos are available but there are certain strings attached. Would anyone happen to know anything about that avenue of investigation?

grimtraveller said...

Carlos said...

Here’s what I see when I focus my attention on the eyes. In both straight-on photos of Dave, the eyes are noticeably above the ears. In all photos of Mr. Jarrett, as well as what I saw in the documentary when I hit the pause button, the eyes are set much lower with respect to the ears. This is especially noticeable in his 2017 photo; It’s also noticeable in his younger photos. I take this as further, specific evidence that Jarrett isn’t Karate Dave based on the images we have

It would appear the 'eyes' have it !

DebS said...

Carlos the only high school picture I could find of David Baker was a group high school picture of him on the gymnasts team so it's a very tiny shot of him. I found a news article announcing the engagement of him and a girl in a Port Huron MI paper, 1966. I'm pretty darned sure it's the correct David Ralph Baker because the article said that Baker was from San Pedro CA, and was in the Marines. I will send the two things I found to Starviego and he can add it to the post if he wants.

One thing I have considered is that Lipsett and Baker might be the same person due to one or the other of them stealing and using the other's ID. This would answer the question of why law enforcement lumped them together on Deemer's list. They are two separate people but there is only the mug shot of Lipsett. My money is on Baker impersonating Lipsett. Why use your true name when getting arrested if you have fake or stolen ID?

Carlos said...

DebS said...

This would answer the question of why law enforcement lumped them together on Deemer's list.

Excellent point.

And many thanks as always for the research and info you provide.

hippie doll said...

I'm almost positive Cielodrive.com is where I seen the picture of the velour turtle-neck pullover and the blue jeans. Are there more pictures of the other articles of clothing I missed? I'll have to check it out again.

Thanks RudyWebersHose

Carlos said...

DebS said...

... the only high school picture I could find of David Baker was a group high school picture of him on the gymnasts team ...

Interesting given Paul Watkins’ remark:

Dave wasn’t big (five-nine, 160 pounds) but was built like a gymnast.

Carlos said...

grim said...

It would appear the 'eyes' have it !

All those in favor of Jarrett NOT being Karate Dave...

Aye

grimtraveller said...

The guy in the beardless mugshot could pass for Jarrett 84's brother........but I don't think they're the same person.

hippie doll said...

I'm almost positive Cielodrive.com is where I seen the picture of the velour turtle-neck pullover and the blue jeans. Are there more pictures of the other articles of clothing I missed?

Other than the 3 pictures there, I've never seen any of the items of clothing, as far as I can remmember.

RudyWebersHose said...

Beausoliel....hes the only one of the killers who seems to accept responsibility for what he did and sees his situation realistically, his explanation of Hinmans murder is the only logical thing ive heard from any of the killers, he thought if he dropped Gary off at the hospital he would turn him in and hed go to prison and he didnt want to risk it so he killed him, cut and dry and makes sense, no helter skelter bullshit, no holes in the desert, no book of Revelations just a real world selfish reason why people kill each other every day and i gaurantee you there is just as simple an answer to both Cielo and Waverly

Bobby says he accepts responsibility now. But it has been a very long journey for him to get to that point, much longer than any of the others. From the moment he got pinched in San Luis Obispo, he's tried to dangle people in it, Blacks, Black Panthers, Manson, DeCarlo, the Straight Satans, Hinman.....now this mysterious Hell's Angel appears with a knife to his throat to add to the supposed pressures on him {the Angels are worldwide famous for their, um, naughtiness. Who outside the locale in reality knows about the Satans ?} and it's only in his 2016 hearing that Bob has had to admit that DeCarlo played no part after many years of saying that he was involved. He's tried to put various hats on a number of people in order to deflect attention from his role which, after the penalty phase, the 3 women stopped doing and haven't done in at least 44 years. Bobby has been changing his story subtly or outright since day 1. Whatever he may have said in the programme does not give a broad picture of his 49 year journey but rest assured, every time he comes up for a hearing, the person from the DA's office is there to stick it to him. It's painful to read.

And of course why shouldn't we believe someone who stole her friends money and left her infant child with people she knew killed people, she'd never lie or let someone "coach" her answers

Be that as it may, it would be a coincidence of monumental proportions that 3 sets of clothing, found in an area similar to the one that Susan Atkins described, with stains that resembled blood, in close proximity to the route away from Cielo and ID'd by one that was there except for one item, would turn out to not be the clothing worn. The defence team could have exposed Linda as a gold medal liar if they were so sure they weren't the clothes; why didn't they ?

Dan S said...

Apropos Jakobsen's reliability as a witness, I believe he's one of Charlie's biggest fans, talking philosophy for days with him. I doubt the Bug could influence or coach him

RudyWebersHose said...

Lol youre naive, Jakobsen had higher interests to protect

RudyWebersHose said...

Murder is the only manner in which blood gets on clothes? If im not mistaken Susan took authorities to a spot miles away from where the clothes were supposedly dumped so either she had no idea what she was talking about OR she actually was in the right area but not exactly

beauders said...

I saw/read a review of the documentary, and they claimed Paul Watkins was holding a rifle! Somewhere I read/saw Hendrickson say that it was actually Clem who was making the "sneakyville" speech in imitation of Manson. Clem would also imitate Manson when singing as on the two cd set Family Jams.

RudyWebersHose said...

You have a serious problem with reading comprehension Grim, I said Bobby NOW admits to what he did, meaning NOW not 2016, not 2001, not 1990, not 1979.....NOW, and hes the ONLY one of the killers who accepts the blame BY HIMSELF for his acts, that doesn't mean i believe he should be released but for whatever its worth maybe he has a chance st saving his soul for the afterlife if there is one, thats IF he truly repents

RudyWebersHose said...

Hippie Doll he has another section of his site where if you pay like a buck a month you can access more material, it might be there, its a Patreon account, he also has an Instagram page where he puts alot of material

RudyWebersHose said...

Lol "which the girls stopped doing"? Pat is still trying to use the battered partner bullshit and Jerry Brown just told Leslie shes still pushing too much blame onto Manson, until these fucking space cadets say "i killed because im a fucking loser and i liked killing, no one forced me, no one brainwashed me, I thought it was cool, i giggled and laughed during the murders and the trials because im a selfish piece of shit who thinks my right to life is important than anyone elses" they dont have a chance

RudyWebersHose said...

The defense position seems pretty simple when it comes to shooting Linda down on the clothes, 1) you bring up her scummy criminal past 2) you bring up her stealing her "friends" last 5 thousand bucks in the world 3) you bring up how after a porn star worthy dicking by Watson she's willing to go steal for him 4) you bring uo her leaving her infant daughter with killers 5) you point out that NOT ONE other person admitted they wore the clothes or saw them wearing the clothes and NO PROOF exists that they were the killers clothes

RudyWebersHose said...

Id put the deed to my house on Melcher and Wilson telling Greg to just go along with the Helter Skelter bullshit so the microscope wouldnt be put on them and they could get back to business as usual

starviego said...

I've added the gym picture of D. Baker to the thread. IMO it's too grainy to make a solid ID, but a definite possible.

Dan S said...

Touchè

RudyWebersHose said...

Besides, Greg is on record as saying he told Charlie that his con talk was bullshit one day when they were driving around a part of Chatsworth where a new bunch of houses was being built and Charlie was giving him his speil about materialism killing the planet and Greg flat out told him he thought he was full of shit

Mr. Humphrat said...

Star and Deb. I think the gym photo is him.

Carlos said...

Mr. Humphrat said...

Star and Deb. I think the gym photo is him

I can certainly agree there is something about this image that makes me think of the Karate Dave mugshots. The general shape of the face. The hair and hairline. The eyes relative to the ears. The neck and adams apple. None of this is scientific, of course, but for me it has the gut feel I never had with Mr. Jarrett. Well done.

AustinAnn74 said...

More conspiracy theories? More Manson & Family were framed by the prosecutor & Gary was a drug dealer and burned Bobby? Count me out!

Mr. Humphrat said...

Deb by the way what was that high school David Baker was at?

DebS said...

Mr. Humphrat said...
Deb by the way what was that high school David Baker was at?
----
The school was San Pedro High School. Going by his birth year Baker should have graduated in 1964 but he was not in that yearbook. I went back one year and found only the gymnast picture, not a class picture.

I agree that Baker's high school picture looks like the mug shot of Lipsett. There is something about the attitude of the pose that looks the same, to me, in both pictures.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Yeah I wanted to say that too his erect posture and an apparent cockiness
The eyes don’t come through on the fuzzy one Great find Deb

starviego said...



If Karate Dave was in reality someone named 'David Ralph Baker' then this individual was in the Marines(USMC) from '63 to '66, who very possibly was a combat vet. Thus he must have had much in common with the other Vets of Spahn:

Danny DeCarlo Coast Guard vet

Juan Flynn Vietnam vet

John Phillip Haught Navy and Vietnam vet

Vern Plumlee USMC vet

Robert Russell/Allen Delisle USMC vet

TJ Walleman USMC vet


But there are no accounts coming out of Spahn about military shop talk or war stories being exchanged amongst these men. Seems kind of strange.

Also, I just viewed this video about some guy who inherited Charlie's stuff from prison, who noticed that Charlie had a fascination with the US military, via his well-thumbed books.

Carlos said...

DebS, have you submitted a request to the National Archives to see if they have his (Baker’s) military photo? I am tempted but don’t want to duplicate efforts.

https://www.archives.gov/personnel-records-center/foia-info

Gorodish said...

DebS wrote:

The school was San Pedro High School. Going by his birth year Baker should have graduated in 1964 but he was not in that yearbook. I went back one year and found only the gymnast picture, not a class picture.

Which would make sense, judging from the records screen shots you found in the second Addendum 9-18-2018. Baker must have quit high school and enlisted in the Marines. (Oct 1963). He left the military in Sept. 1966. Karate Dave's tenure with the family is murky at best; it seem that he was around for several months in 1969. Watkins says he showed up around the time they rented the Gresham St. house in February, which would jibe with the 2/15/1969 mugshot in the pic above. I'm thinking the other mugshot with the facial hair could be from the Mojave arrest in late June/early July. Watkins said Dave left the family a week after slipping away from the Mojave jail and he never saw him again, but Watkins was gone to the desert and Crockett shortly after that. Dave could've been around Spahn through July. Most likely he came and went as he pleased.
As far as the high school picture, despite the blurry image I still can see extreme similarities in the mouth and eyebrows when compared to the mugshots. Nice research.

cielodrivecom said...

Look at the neck, it’s the giveaway that Baker was Karate Dave

Gorodish said...

cielodrive wrote:

Look at the neck, it’s the giveaway that Baker was Karate Dave

Most definitely !

DebS said...

Carlos said...
DebS, have you submitted a request to the National Archives to see if they have his (Baker’s) military photo? I am tempted but don’t want to duplicate efforts.
----
Carlos I have printed out the forms, thanks for the link. I will send for photos and whatever info available for both Baker and Lipsett. I think I have most of the information the form requires, social security numbers, dates of active service, date and place of birth and death etc.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

I just viewed this video about some guy who inherited Charlie's stuff from prison, who noticed that Charlie had a fascination with the US military, via his well-thumbed books

That was a point that Simon Davis made when he was about last year, that he always seemed to speak in very military terms. And Paul Crockett's description of how Charlie was organized out in the desert { in his interview a week before the Barker arrests} borders on the military.

RudyWebersHose said...

Murder is the only manner in which blood gets on clothes?

No one even begins to approach your expertise and mastery when it comes to missing the point.

youre naive, Jakobsen had higher interests to protect

Like drug theft theories ?
Monte Yo~ho~ho.

You have a serious problem with reading comprehension Grim

Oh, didn't you know, I'm totally illiterate. I'm a triumph of voice activated internet technology.

I said Bobby NOW admits to what he did, meaning NOW not 2016

Do you know when the audio used in the documentary that I haven't seen yet but will tape on Thursday evening was actually recorded ? That it is used in a 2018 show doesn't mean it was recorded this year.
And my point stands about what Bobby says now. I take certain matters beyond the limited treatment you choose to give it.

Jerry Brown just told Leslie shes still pushing too much blame onto Manson

And if you read her last few parole hearings, you'll know that that simply isn't true and the board, who can see Tex and Pat are still a dangerous bet for parole, can see it's not true. Before her last hearing we all knew that he wasn't going to play ball with Leslie, we even discussed it here. The only issue was how he would justify it and as the person who basically can't lose, he just did his Harlem Globetrotters bit.

The defense position seems pretty simple when it comes to shooting Linda down on the clothes

That's what the prosecution thought with OJ.

Id put the deed to my house on Melcher and Wilson telling Greg to just go along with the Helter Skelter bullshit so the microscope wouldnt be put on them and they could get back to business as usual

And when I saw you homeless on the streets, I'd buy you a hot cup of whatever you wanted.

RudyWebersHose said...

How do you argue against the points i made about Yana the Witch then?

Terrapin said...

About the comments going off topic.. can we add a message board/forum to this site? It would solve all the web/mobile issues too.

Off topic, (just to illustrate my point lol) someone mentioned the Bill Murphy interview a few posts ago.. in that interview Charlie's timeline is that Tex owes him (for Crowe) and then somehow he comes to owe Bobby for something so he asks Tex to pay the debt he owes him to Bobby instead. What does Charlie owe Bobby for?

RudyWebersHose said...

Possibly for Bobby offing Gary so Gary wouldnt go to the cops and tell them about Charlie slashing his face

RudyWebersHose said...

Matter of fact i think Charlie made reference to that in the Bill Scanlon Murphy interview saying he told Gary youll go to the cops my parole officer will put me back in prison

beauders said...

Who id Robert Russell/Alan Delisle?

DebS said...

beauders said...
Who id Robert Russell/Alan Delisle?
----
Starviego did a post on him/them here-

http://www.mansonblog.com/2017/12/vern-plumlee-unanswered-questions.html

grimtraveller said...

RudyWebersHose said...

How do you argue against the points i made about Yana the Witch then? The defense position seems pretty simple when it comes to shooting Linda down on the clothes, 1) you bring up her scummy criminal past 2) you bring up her stealing her "friends" last 5 thousand bucks in the world 3) you bring up how after a porn star worthy dicking by Watson she's willing to go steal for him 4) you bring uo her leaving her infant daughter with killers 5) you point out that NOT ONE other person admitted they wore the clothes or saw them wearing the clothes and NO PROOF exists that they were the killers clothes

In one sense, I agree with you but it's a real gamble, that was my OJ point. All of the things that you brought up may have validity ~ but they pale into insignificance if those clothes fit Atkins or Krenwinkel. Now, granted, they don't prove that they are the clothes but they are one more link in a large chain of circumstancial evidence.
As an aside by the way, all of the things that you mention were brought up at trial {Linda's criminal past was laughable as far as hardcore criminality goes. Even Susan would have laughed at her if there was a crime league table} and the defence went in hard on her but it made no difference. Zamora in his book says one of the first things the jury did when they finally were able to discuss the case with one another after all those months, was talk about whether or nor Linda was believable. It was said over and over that defendants and witnesses weren't on trial for their pasts, lifestyles, habits or beliefs. So her nicking the $5000, getting wangdanged by Tex, leaving her daughter because she couldn't get to her to escape etc bear little relevance to whether the found clothes were the ones worn by the killers. The prosecution introduced the items into evidence. There's only one ironclad way that doubt could be put on Linda's ID of them and that's to put Pat and Susan into them to see if they fit. And that would be majorly risky if it turned out to be the clothes. Which they were. Fitzgerald knew Pat had done it. Shinn and the newspaper reading/TV news watching world knew Susan had been there. She's the one who told the world about the clothes in the first place.
Going back to circumstancial evidence for a moment, that's what Starviego has tried to utilize in this thread. He's strung together a series of things that he sees as being indications that Karate Dave was a cop plant looking at the Family. As far as I can see, there's nothing sufficiently strong to link his "evidence" ~ the kinds of things that make those clothes found by the TV crew virtually unassailable as the clothes the killers wore. And the finding and ID of the clothes bleeds into the case as a whole because it acts as major league corroboration for Linda and earlier, Susan.

Terrapin said...

About the comments going off topic.. can we add a message board/forum to this site?...Off topic, (just to illustrate my point lol) someone mentioned the Bill Murphy interview a few posts ago.. in that interview Charlie's timeline is that Tex owes him (for Crowe) and then somehow he comes to owe Bobby for something so he asks Tex to pay the debt he owes him to Bobby instead. What does Charlie owe Bobby for?

Why wouldn't a discussion slide strictly off topic ? That's generally what happens among people. Even in strictly chaired staff meetings or group meetings, things come up that aren't on topic but which are offshoots. Even in the parole hearings there's a degree of going off topic !
Also, for people that are new to the case or the blog, some of the off topic conversations are helpful in building up either knowledge or getting a feel of the blog and more importantly, its characters, or inspiring others to find out about particular things that have come up in those off topic conversations.

Dan S said...

I thought RWH s point was that melcher was his partner so melcher's interests would be paramount to Jakobson

RudyWebersHose said...

Lol see if they fit? Are you nuts? There are literally tens of thousands of girls in the LA area alone at that time who those clothes would "fit", if they were size 24 clothes and Mama Cass was the defendant you might have a chance but not average slim 19-24 year old girls

RudyWebersHose said...

My point was that Greg as the least known of the three with the least to lose testified to HS to get Vince off Terry and Dennis backs, they didnt want all the little secrets getting out of the shit that goes on behind closed doors in Hollywood and Cielo Dr was a known party house not only when Sharon, Roman, Voytek and Abigail lived there but Melcher and Mark Lindsey too

RudyWebersHose said...

And in my opinion Starviego HAS proved his point with the pictures alone, its obvious its the same guy

grimtraveller said...

Well, I guess there's nothing left to say then !

Dan S said...

Baker looks like the real karate Dave to me

Peter said...

If anyone is interested in a late 60s, music playing, hippie commune that did not go on a murderous rampage.
https://youtu.be/nBostNOFcmA

Plus, they have their own soccer team, the food looks better, they practice a weird massage technique and the lead female vocal Baby Consuelo,is way sexier then all of Charlie's girls combined. She is practically a savage.

If Terry Melcher went to Spain and saw this, he would have paid more than 50 bucks.

brownrice said...

She sure was cute and I quite like their music but they were more rock star than hard core hippie I suspect... kinda like a Brazilian Mamas & Papas... though that might be a bit harsh. She converted to Evangelical Christianity in 1990... even without doing prison time :-)

Doug Smith said...

Unfortunately, by 1980, Baby Consuelo waa well into her own tepid decline...almost as if this is music for a 700 Club interview on the lost 60's "Hippie Cult" dream.
The doc shows an interesting & adventurous mesh of Os Mutantes/Hendrix-informed psychatripicalia!

This is putrid

https://youtu.be/PCHBpkaqM1Y

brownrice said...

Doug Smith said...
Unfortunately, by 1980, Baby Consuelo waa well into her own tepid decline...

This is putrid

https://youtu.be/PCHBpkaqM1Y


Yes, the 80s were a seriously ugly time to be a working musician. Look what happened to Grace Slick...

Doug Smith said...

Exactly who I was thinking of in comparison..."Welcome to the Wrecking Ball!" anyone?!

Doug Smith said...

For the unfamiliar - the legendary OS Mutantes - LIVE 1969!
https://youtu.be/ZqKBCJL4GNo

Peter said...

At 16:45 in that documentary. When you find a girl who will dance like that you found the one.

Doug Smith said...

Rudolf - While I wholeheartedly agree with you as per what is aired in mass airwaves and is deemed "hot" or "successful" in today's musical landscape...Give me a list of 5 of your favourite (historically...Any era) musical artists and I will shoot you links to current day artists that are equally awesome.

Doug Smith said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Doug Smith said...

Hey RWH - It must be an exceedingly unfullfilling life you lead if you need to justify your existence/derive self worth/value from launching such meaningless and unimaginative tirades onto whomever it is that's rattled your distorted take on reality.
I was just offering...friendly-like
...no threat, feelings of superiority or, personal agenda...

You know that your verbal diarrhea and hate filled diatribes are so weak that they barely even amuse - at even the most banal level.

In fact - you rate about 8 or 9 notches below that skidmark as far as any valued contribution is concerned.

I apologize for trying to be nice.

Let's just agree to disagree. Let's keep this blog fun for everyone.

PS - To whomever deleted his comment - Thanks. Please delete this also if it should warrant deleting. I certainly don't want to be encouraging that crap.

Brian G said...

Can't be the same person. The police officer went back to special forces after his assignment with the police department. Karate Dave had a plastic elbow which certainly would disqualify him from the service especially special operations

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Baker would have been 22 in the summer of '69, which gives him more time

Barbara Hoyt testified at Clem's first trial that Dave was 22 and that he turned 23 at some point while he was at Spahn.

I also find his timing suspicious. He shows up just when the shit really starts to get crazy.....

Arguably, so did Bill Vance.

and he disappears just before the shit really hit the fan

Going by Babs' testimony, he left with a 'Nick' and a 'Sue' and what happened there was that Dave wanted to play the field and have more than one girlfriend which Babs wasn't happy with so Sue became Dave's paramour. After a few days on the beach, they went back to Spahn then Dave left. His disappearance is actually quite mundane and isn't really a disappearance. It appears he just left. Besides which, Babs says it was in July. A number of things {Crowe, Hinman, Kasabian, Bailey, Vance, Bobby, TJ} happened that July and if Dave was an undercover cop, he had more than enough to feed his superiors.

cielodrivecom said...

In court, Kay refers to him as David Baker

When Babs was asked what his surname was, she couldn't remember, but the first name she offered was Barker. I'd say she was conflating this with Barker Ranch because as soon as she says 'Barker', she then offers 'Baker'.

DebS said...

One thing I have considered is that Lipsett and Baker might be the same person due to one or the other of them stealing and using the other's ID. This would answer the question of why law enforcement lumped them together on Deemer's list. They are two separate people but there is only the mug shot of Lipsett. My money is on Baker impersonating Lipsett. Why use your true name when getting arrested if you have fake or stolen ID?

Interestingly, when Babs was asked about some of the fake names she gave when arrested, one of the names she used was.....Barbara Lippsett. Makes sense for the lovestruck young girl to use the fake name that the object of her affections was using.

starviego said...

Thanks for the additional info.

grimtraveller said...

You know, if Dave Baker had a birthday while he was still around Barbara, that would mean that he took off right around the same time that Charlie headed off to Big Sur......

grimtraveller said...

RudyWebersHose said...

i said how come in 50 years we havent heard OF THE SPECIFIC FUCKING INCIDENT HE REFERENCES IN THE SHOW,,im talking about the specific recording of him saying what he said with the interviewer asking him how long before the murders and him saying "three months"

It's a shame about the hosepipe ban !
Anyway, having seen the first part of that Manson Tapes thing {part 2 is tomorrow}, it sparked off such deja vu for me that I realized that most of the quotes in it that accompany the footage can be found in Robert's 575 page "Death To Pigs" and that specific quote about the 3 months and the deaths is in the book, on page 277 for anyone that has it. So it's been in the public domain at least since 2011 in book form but the conversation took place on October 30th 1970 and as I pointed out earlier to our friend that passes the water, has been known longer on earth than he has {he was born a few months later}.
In one of the Squeaky book threads, Mr Humphrat and I have a conversation about Zero and the quotes from the book that I use came from the same conversation that Watkins' "3 months" quote is from.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

And where the fuck did that Bobby audio interview come from?

I presume it was from sometime this year as in it he says he's 71 years old even though he won't be until November !