Monday, June 10, 2013

Examining Fairness

Debating Which of the "Family" Members Truly Deserve to be Released

                            I think a few things have happened in recent years- Bruce got turned away a second time by the Governor, Susan was not allowed to even die at home, and Leslie is now getting 5 year denials- which make me feel it is about time to acknowledge that the chances of any of the convicted "Family" members ever getting out is nil. For those of you who don't play soccer that means zero :)  So I thought today I would take a moment to smoke a joint and open my mind honestly to a few reasons some of them might have deserved a second chance, and then try to answer myself as to why it has never been enough? Certainly not an easy task to get blasted this early on a weekend morning and try to play mental tennis with myself - but I feel I am up for the challenge, and anyway it is not the worst thing you could play with yourself. ( did that come out right?) So let me take one last hit and give this a shot....


                          Some say Susan Atkins deserved to be paroled and maybe that's so. She never really killed anybody herself, and was the longest incarcerated female in California history at the time of her death. She was unable to sit up in bed or stay awake for long periods of time, and couldn't possibly be a threat to anyone. She had a great post conviction record and even took pictures with Gov. Arnold at one point in time. Certainly, she had a dedicated husband and steady job waiting for her, before she got to ill for any of that to matter. It would have been more of a show of mercy to her family to let her have her last few days at home than an insult to her victims, and for sure she wasn't going to hurt anyone else. But Sexy Sadie told a 9 month pregnant women she was going to die and she didn't care. She helped Kill 4 people that night directly, and if you add her trip to Gary's, we wind up with 5 lives she participated in taking. How can we teach a lesson and still show mercy to a women who by her own boasting admission chose to terrorize instead when asked show it to someone else?

                        Some say Bobby Beausoleil deserves to be paroled and maybe that's so. Bobby committed one stupid act over 40 years ago when he was a young cocky punk who thought he knew it all. Bobby has always stayed true to himself, and never used religion or anything else as a crutch. He has grown into a very smart and talented musician, who in jail, has made a whole lot out of very little. Until her recent death- he had a loving wife and fine family waiting on him at home and surely wouldn't have done anything stupid if he is given a chance to join them. But Bobby tortured a guy who he also called a friend. Bobby has changed his story three times and to this day tries to distance himself from the others. How can we release a guy who is still in denial?

                       Some say Bruce Davis deserves to be paroled and maybe that's so. Bruce didn't directly kill anybody and has been getting one year denials since basically I was in 6'th grade. Bruce found religion and has a good family waiting on him should he ever get home. Bruce counsels others in prison and has dedicated his life to the church. But Bruce is a sneaky little bastid as well, and there will always be the chance he knows more than he will tell. He possibly committed other murders and refused to cooperate and lied when asked about them. How can we free a man we can never really trust?

                      Some say Leslie Van Houten deserves to be paroled and maybe that's so. LULU was the youngest of them all when it happened, and of the TLB murders- was the least involved. She has an almost spotless prison record in over 40 years and has mentored and tutored other women. She has a great support group to help her when released. She had a chance to prove herself while out between her second and third trials and acted exemplary. If ever there was a case of young and stupid- LULU is the poster child. But Leslie Van Houten has the one strike against her which none of the others have to answer for. She asked to be part of it. How can we grant a second chance to the one person who volunteered? 

                    Some say Charlie Manson deserves to be paroled and maybe that's so. Charlie never killed anyone himself ( that can be proved anyway lol) and he wasn't even there when the victims were killed. He has done over 40 years for being an accessory, and wasn't even allowed to act as his own lawyer at his trial. He is an older more peaceful man who simply wants to rejoin his ATWA nation and live out his days playing music with Star and Greywolf, and maybe learn how to use App's on that cell phone. But Charlie is the "Most Evil Man Alive". How can we set free the face of evil and still expect our children to sleep at night?

                  Some say Patricia Krenwinkle deserves to be paroled and maybe that's so. Pat has the best post incarceration record of the them all and with the death of Susan Atkins has been in a California clink longer than any women ever. She has shown the most remorse and has clearly become a kind and sensitive person. But Pat was absolutely brutal on those two nights and she personally caused pain and suffering beyond anything anyone should ever have to endure. How can we justify the parole of one of the primary culprits in one of the most infamous murders of all time?

               Some say Tex Watson deserves to be paroled- but I am not one of them. Anyone who thinks this animal should be anywhere besides hell or taking it up the hinalinous against his will, and painfully, from the largest and angriest man in the Mule State Prison is no longer allowed to read my posts.

                                      So there you have it. Some pros and cons for all of them done as fairly as my mind would allow me to do them. And,  absolutely there are arguments to be made for almost all of them by this time. Good arguments.  It is a very hard decision in some cases. Bobby, LULU, or Pat wouldn't hurt anyone if they got out and I know that. I want to be Fair. But, I guess how I feel is that Fair is important, but equally important for both sides. How can you be Fair to both? Many people feel it is fair now to let the convicted go home. The victims families feel it is Fair for the convicted to spend the rest of their lives in jail, as in most cases they were supposed to die for their crimes. When you have two groups of people who want different things and you only have one choice- how can you be Fair to both?? In my opinion- if you have to err- do it on the side of those who were harmed and not the side of those who did the harming. They all wound up depending on fairness from this decision together- but those who harmed did not have to be there, and the harmed had no choice....


St. Circumstance

                 





41 comments:

orwhut said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Quentin said...

My goodness... appreciate all the input and opinions,thats what makes the world go round, but when you have to go thru 55 posts of petty bickering and bullshit because people have their panties in a wad, or the bong water is sour and the sink is too far...makes me wonder why opinions are just not respected ....

Quentin said...

My goodness... appreciate all the input and opinions,thats what makes the world go round, but when you have to go thru 55 posts of petty bickering and bullshit because people have their panties in a wad, or the bong water is sour and the sink is too far...makes me wonder why opinions are just not respected ....

Max Frost said...

(Laughing)

Doc Sierra said...

Good post Saint. Some good points to ponder.......

Panamint Patty said...

charlie as most evil man alive: Patty doesnt see evil in those eyes anymore, she sees a tired old man. our kids will sleep fine, most of them have no idea who hes is/was. and they have their own most evil now: kids who set off bombs and take assault rifles onto school campuses. charlie will someday be a footnote. ever heard the nursery schhol rhyme, "Lizzie borden took an ax and gave her mother forty whacks?" thats where we are headed.

AustinAnn74 said...

When I saw the crime scene, and autopsy photos the first time, I had nightmares, and was scared to be alone in my own home. I will never get over seeing such brutality done to human beings. These so-called people do not deserve, in the least bit to be released. It seems like everywhere they went, someone would end up dead. Also, didn't Manson break into the LaBianca's house first, and tie them up? The murder orders came from HIS MOUTH! Those people didn't eat, sleep, have sex, fart, pee or take shits without his permission. Of course, I think Tex would of killed with or without Manson. He is a demon, in the form of a human. Nothing less, nothing more. He scares me more than any of the other ones.

Panamint Patty said...

Before someone says Patty is "pro Manson," let her clarify. Sure, he is "evil." Its just the hyperbole Patty takes issue with.

Ole J.C. said...

I think that all of the Manson cases are clouded in notoriety and more publicized than any other crime case.Do any of them deserve to be paroled? Well, deserve is not the word. Do any of them meet the requirements to be paroled? Absolutely. The difference between the Manson case and another murder case are two things: good attorneys and less publicity.

The attorneys working on the Manson case were the equivalent to the Tree Stooges. One was focused on making the prosecutions' witnesses look bad, one was focused on mitigating, one was focused on separating his client and another was just seeing $$$$$. Then insert ravenous media and the Manson case is like no other.

That being said, there are so many people who brutally murder people and because the DA had a weak case get to plea down to second degree, manslaughter, whatever. They get 25 years, serve 20 and then are freed.

Sometimes a murderer has a damn good attorney team who finds a black glove loophole.

I think that Grogan met his parole requirements. I think Leslie, Bruce and Bobby do as well. We have to judge these people for what have been proven against them, not what we THINK they may have done. Sadie is a bit different because she participated in Hinman as well.

Krenwinkel, Tex and Manson are the ones who are questionable releases. I am not sure if anyone with 7+ counts of murder on them have ever been released from prison due to time served (and not a technicality).

Cielodrive.Com said...

The attorneys were not stooges.

HellzBellz said...

Just like Saint says, There are murderers free after serving 20 years or so. And I dont think it has anything to do about how nasty those killings were, today we see far worse. The only one I question is Tex, he realy deserve ,Life, with that I mean in Jail ofcourse. That Manson is the most evil man is complete bullsh#t to me, take the excample of the other ,Cultleader, the Evil reverend Jim Jones...He realy Brainwashed his diciples and we all know how many He killed. Thats what I call Evil. By the way, sometimes I wonder, IF the DeathPenalty wasnt abolished in the 70"s And they all found their Deaths,.... Would we have this Blogg today ?? Would people still talk about ,,The Manson Family,, the way we are doing now ?

1nonbeliever said...

Charlie "is the most evil man alive" Yeah right, sounds to me like someone is living under a rock and doesn't pay attention to current events.

It is 2013 and Charlie could not have dreamed up some of the evil that has been portrayed on people in the last 20 to 30 years.

Charlie isn't shit compared to Dean Corll, BTK, or the U.S. Government. Those 3 make Charlie look like a angel!!

Max Frost said...

Manson isn't evil.

He's a career criminal with a huge rap sheet which does NOT include anything violent.

If Helter Skelter were true then he'd be evil. But it isn't and he isn't. He got himself into a situation with all these people (aka "the family") and things eventually got totally out of control. He lost it, as did a handful of others. Yea he went through evil phases while all the shit was going on. He had evil thoughts and didn't stop himself or others from going over the cliff. He was involved but he wasn't directing that movie.

He also wasn't controlling what everyone did at the ranch. In fact a lot of the time he wasn't even at the ranch. He had A LOT of things going on outside the ranch that people at the ranch had no idea of or involvement in. Paul Watkins liked to think of himself as "Charlie's right hand man" but he wasn't. Paul knew little about what Manson was involved in outside of their little circle.

The streets were safe with Manson on the loose. He wasn't a killing machine and he wasn't unleashing other killing machines. There were specific reasons for what happened (I.e., the murders). It wasn't random.

Unfortunately Sharon was at the wrong place at the wrong time, which happened to be her home. She wasn't part of the mess. She wasn't even there, it appeared - her car was in the shop.

Doc Sierra said...

When someone states their opinions as absolute fact they, in my opinion, lose credibility. I prefer to hang with the students rather than the teachers......

Max Frost said...

Why?

You may not like what someone says or how they say it, but how does that automatically make them less credible?

Doc Sierra said...

Nothing personal Max. It isn't about me not liking what someone says. It's just my opinion that when someone continually states their opinion as fact it appears to me that they have a closed mind. If we keep our minds closed it makes it difficult to ascertain the facts. The fact here is that none of us know the whole story.

Max Frost said...

You're right. None of us here do know the whole story. I don't purport to know the whole story.

But certain things are known and when you tie all those things together you end up with something of a framework or skeleton of a story. A place to operate from and begin to fill in the blanks.

If you look at what I posted above you'll notice there are certainly a lot of blanks not filled in. But the overall framework is solid. It's only part of the story but it's solid in that it is well researched - as opposed to a sloppy shot in the dark.

And I get tired of people constantly having to say "in my opinion." I mean, just say it. It's yours and you can say it without caution. As far as I'm concerned it's pretty much implied that most of what people say on a blog like this is opinion. So no need to keep clarifying that.

Doc Sierra said...

Hex Troll needs to get a life. I bet that when you were a kid and were 16 years old in the 3rd grade your report card said "Does not get along with or play well with others". All you do is come on here and bother people. You really need to leave. Your tin foil hat is wearing out and it's messing with your last two brain cells.

Matt said...

Doc, He's been posting that crap for a long time now. He gets deleted on-site. I don't know why he bothers...

orwhut said...

I'm glad you cleared that up, Matt. Doc must have been talking about a post that was deleted before I saw it. That would also explain why I haven't seen any new posts from hexjoe in a long time.

Matt said...

Just nonsensical rants against women, Jews and others. Manson is a real man. The rest of us are all pussies.

orwhut said...

You must have gotten all of those before I saw them. When I was trying to figure out what Doc meant, I did a search, and didn't find any from hexjoe of that nature.

Matt said...

No big deal. We've deleted him at least 50 times in the last 4 days. We have admins on both coasts to most people never see that crap.

Always Curious said...

Yes, none of us do know the whole story(s) and that's why these blogs are as popular as they are! The "system" is full of inequities, but if Leslie has five more years, chances are Pat is not going anywhere soon. Tex is not, just based on general principles, but I would like him to be forthright about the Shea murder (who/what AND why) as well as did he know S. LeBarge before (probably), what was the real deal w/Crowe, what was the real reason(s) for Hinman (drugs, money, or both). At the very least he could upgrade his credibility.

Max Frost said...

The killers were betrayed by a system that gave them an excuse.

The system offered up the ridiculous Helter Skelter theory, complete with Manson controlling their minds and making them kill for him. So they ride on that excuse every time they meet the parole board. "Charlie was controlling me and I killed for him because that's what he wanted me to do" blah blah.

But the parole board knows it's a bullshit story. They sit there watching a mass murderer claiming to be a victim. No real remorse - just someone pleading "I didn't have a choice, I was forced to do it."

Doc Sierra said...

Hi Matt. I hope you didn't take that as a disrespect to the Eviliz blog. I usually don't give attention to trolls but I hate internet bullies. I've been pretty sick and on pain meds lately and I'm a little out of sorts. I'll just ignore this guy from now on.......

Sun King said...

The one thing that still blows my mind is how Clem averted the PR Blitz that accompanies everyone else associated with Manson when they come up for parole. Heck he was released before the general public even got wind of it.

He also was with the crew that went out to the LaBianca's and was fortunate to get off as being an accomplice on that one as well. How much time did he serve, less than 15 yrs. for murder? Sure he gave up the location of Shorty but didn't that just confirm his involvement?

It seems to me that the Manson case is still way too high profile and the general public for anyone to get fair treatment under the system. Once the media made Manson out to be the Most Evil it left an impression on the GP, true or not and everyone else associated with Manson bears that burden.

Max Frost said...

It's like Hendrickson said "Clem was the smartest one at the ranch."

Doc Sierra said...

Max Frost said...

It's like Hendrickson said "Clem was the smartest one at the ranch."
--------------------------------
Good point Max. After all, they were slippies. I always thought Clem just played stupid to make people underestimate him.

Max Frost said...

Exactly, yeah. He learned that from Charlie.

He kind of talked in a way that implied he was somewhat impaired in the MANSON docu - and, yet, everything he said was brilliant.

Doc Sierra said...

Here' another theory that I have. I've always thought that the family believed in Helter Skelter but Charlie didn't. Being the manipulative sociopath that he is he just used it to keep them paranoid as a means to control them.

Max Frost said...

Helter Skelter was just a metaphor for chaos in the streets. This was the late '60s. At the ranch it was something that everyone put their own ideas and predictions into. It took on a life of its own and, depending on who you talk to, it had many different meanings. It wasn't necessarily THEIR rap - everyone was talking that way back then, just using different words.

orwhut said...

Sun King said... The one thing that still blows my mind is how Clem averted the PR Blitz that accompanies everyone else associated with Manson when they come up for parole. Heck he was released before the general public even got wind of it.

Clem was released in '85. I wonder if victims' families were notified of parole hearings then. I wonder if they are now?

Matt said...

Doc Sierra said...
Hi Matt. I hope you didn't take that as a disrespect to the Eviliz blog.


Doc, you are one of my favorite people on this blog ever. You've never said anything that made me do anything but think or laugh. Sunshine daydream!

Doc Sierra said...

Thanks Matt. I dig you and everyone else here. I have a lot of spare time on my hands and this blog is something that helps fill the time. I don't remember how I found it but I'm glad that I did. I guess that in a way you could say the bus came by and I got on, that's when it all began....

Doc Sierra said...

Hi Max.
Speaking of the late 60s, People talk about peace and love. I remember the late 60s in a different way. I remember the peace and love on TV commercials and some of the music but in my reality, I saw a lot violence, racism and danger. I remember riding with my mother through the Haight and man, it smelled bad, a lot of dirty looking people, and we even witnessed violence. I think that the contradiction is a commentary on the power of media.

rfoster1 said...

Doc Sierra said...
Here' another theory that I have. I've always thought that the family believed in Helter Skelter but Charlie didn't. Being the manipulative sociopath that he is he just used it to keep them paranoid as a means to control them.

Hi Doc Sierra, yes, I read/heard the same thing somewhere, that "Helter Skelter" was just something Charlie used when around certain people that it resonated with. It was the same thing with his ATWA thing, that he spoke that way around the people it resonated with making it easier for him to manipulate them. And so on, and so on. Actually, I remember where I read that, it was in Susan Atkins book, the name of which I don't recall as I type this.

That Charlie spoke of certain subjects in a way to gain credibility with certain groups of people who were atuned to those subjects makes perfect sense to me. I do not believe the Tate/LaBianca murders had anything to do with the Helter Skelter nonsense he spouted, but Bugliosi heard the story and ran with it during the trial, and it stuck, which is unfortunate in my opinion, because it is hiding the real truth, which is why we are all here discussing this today.

Anyway, I'm Randy. Been around since this blog started but don't post much. Glad to make your acquaintance.

Farrah2012 said...

I think it's long overdue that Leslie gets released and I find it kinda sad she got a five yr denial.
I also Don't think it's right for Debra Tate to be asking Sharon Tate fans on Facebook to write letters to Leslie and Bruce's parole board members to stop their release since they were not involved in her sisters death.

Ray Morgan said...

the only reason that leslie has never been released is the publicity and the way she is portrayed by everyone which is unfair to be honest james bulgers killers were just as nasty and worse then leslie but they got paroled. A bit of farce when it comes to leslie i think, shes payed her debt

teecuzbruh said...

Nice..it is fascinating that Manson, who,like you said,didn't kill anyone,wound up being the fallguy even moreso than the main killer Watson. Quite a legal precedent was set there that the high and mighty hate to admit or even talk about. If I tell you to brutally murder someone, a group of people, whatever the "command" is, exactly who's guilty?

Answer: obviously the person who pulls the trigger, swings the pipe etc.

teecuzbruh said...

Quite a legal precendent was set in that case.

Someone whom did not kill Tate-LaBianca was convicted for doing just that.

Question: If I tell you to kill someone, a group of people, exactly whom is it that guilty?

Answer: Obviously it's on you. To be thrown in jail for saying something repulsive, well, that there is not worth any of that false wrapped in a flag patriotism people incorrectly call "fighting for freedom"

If I remember correctly Manson could not be tied physically to either crime scene.

I'm no Manson fanboy, what I am a huge fan of is "beyond a reasonable doubt"

America needed a boogeyman of the day to whip up disgust for "dirty hippies".

Bugliosi and presstitutes delivered.