Thursday, October 8, 2015

5000 miles from Spahn - Dormer Cottage and the Talgarth Hotel

The following contribution is courtesy of MHN:

Recently I took my wife and daughter out to a children's farm centre in Surrey, south of London, and afterwards we ate at a restaurant that was only a few miles from East Grinstead. Realising that I might never again find myself so close to a Manson-related site here in the UK I left them to enjoy their dessert, jumped into the car and drove until I found East Grinstead. It took me a bit of hunting around in bushes but I eventually found Dormer Cottage - the Scientologist-owned property where Bruce Davis is thought to have stayed during his trip to England in late '68 and the Spring of '69.

I spoke to the man who has owned the neighboring cottage for ten years, who told me that until two or three years ago Dormer Cottage had been occupied by a man named Nick and his Russian wife, who were Scientologists, slightly eccentric, and liked to hoard things. Sometimes, he told me, the downstairs was so full of junk you couldn't open the doors. He said he thought the property was built in the mid sixties by Nick's mother, though he wasn't sure of that fact.

He says after the Scientologists moved out a couple of years ago the property fell into complete dereliction and has now been bought by property developers, who will presumably demolish the cottage and build something more lucrative in its place.

One odd thing is that according to the official Land Registry here in the UK, Dormer Cottage was legally sold twice in the space of one day. It was sold for £54,000 and then again for £62,000  - both sales listed on Nov 27th 1998.

(Macabre Bonus: the restaurant near Dormer Cottage at which I briefly abandoned my wife and daughter was pretty much a Longhorn Saloon wild-west mock-up, and - I kid you not - the ribs my wife ordered came complete with unintentional reference to both the Tate and LaBianca crime scenes - the wife's ribs arrived at the table with a steak knife sticking out of it (Leno) and a US flag (Roman and Sharon's sofa).














I also took a trip recently to West Kensington, London - to see the Talgarth Hotel where Sandra Good's ex boyfriend Joel Pugh committed suicide by slashing his wrists, and his throat, twice - while Davis was allegedly in the UK. It's a depressing dump. I have tried its telephone number many times without anyone ever picking up, and I spent a good hour periodically ringing the front buzzer - but nobody ever answered. Access to the rear is currently closed-off for construction work but from across the train tracks you can see that access to the ground floor rear-facing rooms (which is what Joel Pugh had) would not be at all difficult for an experienced creepy-crawler. Do I think Davis had a hand in Pugh's death? No idea. There is no evidence that he did, and that's all I can say. Simon Wells  has looked into it as much as anyone I think, and he clearly thinks it was nothing more than a suicide.











91 comments:

christopher butche said...

MHN, you can also attempt the Tate-Polanski London sites next time you have time on your hands.

Perhaps it's time for Bruce Davis to write up his travel journal or his European adventures.

As an aside Brychan back in the AD450 or so held an area of land in Wales known as Brycheiniog, the capital of which was Talgarth. This is my sole Wales-Manson Saga connection.

equinox12314 said...


@MHN

It was a real treat to discover a post from you this morning, MHN!! From the photographs, it shows how mundane and ordinary the sites were of this world famous crime. I imagine that if Bruce was able to live in the drains of LA with Nancy Pitman, that Dormer Cottage wouldn’t have been a hardship. Regarding the quick sale of the cottage twice in one day, I wonder if this was ‘back to back selling’. As you are now doubt aware from the UK media, the Member of Parliament for the constituency in which I live is now under police investigation for this practice because it can be a sign of mortgage fraud.

I wonder what’s going on with the Talgarth Hotel (it looks like Fawlty Towers)? Some of the upper windows are open, so there must be residents. Perhaps whoever runs the place had gone out and anyone staying there felt it is not their obligation to answer the doorbell or phone. I just looked up the ‘Talgarth Hotel’ on www.booking.com and it came back with a property on Talgarth Road, Hammersmith and Fulham, London, W14 9DB. It may be that there is more than one Talgarth Hotel in London because If you go to the site, this property consists of decent refurbished apartments, which would belie the exterior of the place you visited.

My problem with Joel Pugh having committed suicide by the means you describe, is that the cuts of his wrists and throat seemed to be clean. With suicide victims, they tend to make ‘desperation’ cuts, rather than clean cuts.


Thanks for this fascinating post and the wonderful photos. BTW, your little girl is beautiful - we will assume she gets her looks from her mother:):)

AustinAnn74 said...

Was that some sort of poison vine growing across the door? I get chills thinking about poison ivy & oak. I one time swung on a rope swing into a river, but didn't realize the rope had been hanging around an oak tree covered in poison oak vine until my hands & chest were exposed to the rope. I didn't see the vine until I was half way across the creek. I had oozing blisters that itched like mad for the next few weeks. Just sayin..
Very interesting post with photos, MHN!

MHN said...

Thank you equinox, She gets her looks from her mummy and her misanthropic disdain from me, you're right.

The Talgarth is the hotel so-named on Talgarth Rd, Hammersmith and Fulham. It has likely had an extension built at the back since 1969, and no doubt the rooms are relatively pleasant and refurbished. The front needs 'modernising' as estate agents say. Possibly Joel Pugh's room no longer has the outside access it once had - I was keen to get inside and ask, but as I say, it appeared that no one was willing to answer the buzzer over the course of an hour.

Pugh's suicide is indeed odd. It showed evidence of complete overkill, which is atypical; but then again, it also had the classic tentative shallow cuts, typical evidence of a suicide working themselves up to the task. To say that Joel got over this initial tentativeness would be an understatement. He really went to town on himself. If it was indeed he.

From the rear of the Talgarth you have a view of a gentleman's barbers, bearing on its canopy the slogan 'Men's Cutting Room'. One of those small dark jokes at which the universe excels.

CrisPOA said...

So nice, now we have illustrated posts made overseas!
Good to see England related TLB pictures. Good job MHN.
Your daughter is a doll!

Matt said...

equinox12314 said...

Thanks for this fascinating post and the wonderful photos. BTW, your little girl is beautiful - we will assume she gets her looks from her mother:):)


Thank you, equinox. I didn't want to be first with that. :)

She's an adorable little girl. Good luck in 10 years, brother...



MHN said...

Matt, you are killing me.

If she hasn't run off to join a cult by the time she's thirteen I'll consider that mission accomplished.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Great job Mr. Hlousek! I can't believe they deliver the meat to the table with the knife sticking up like that. WTH. What a sweet girl too. I hope your wife didn't mind you traipsing off for your unwholesome hobby.

equinox12314 said...

AustinAnn said...

"...I had oozing blisters that itched like mad for the next few weeks. Just sayin.."

Ann, you make Texas sound like a fun place to visit:):)

Robert Hendrickson said...

FIRST: Michael - thanks for the photos, especially the one with an American flag and a knife stuck in the "ribs." What a message! "Go ahead, you dumb revolutionaries - BAN Guns in America - make steak knifes the weapons of choise."

Of course, a REAL liberal would recognize that YOU English are simply making fun of the way WE "pig" out on obesity foods and BAN greesy ribs instead.

ME - I SEE a clear and intentional "message" from the cook, who is STILL obsessed with "Helter Skelter" and is trying to get HIS message across the pond to the Black Muslims.

YOU have also invited a NEW and IMPROVED "motive" into the Tate / LaBianca world. That the English "Beatles" really were trying to send a message to president Johnson, but got HIM mixed-up with the Devil. Like - WRONG cyber address.

SECOND: Looking out your back window to "train tracks" ?

Silence of the lambs - ANYONE ?

Panamint Patty said...

Nice one! Patty has been curious bout Dormer for ages. Thanks MHN!

MHN said...

AustinAnn - I had no blisters afterwards, but I could've used a machete to reach the place. One pair of shoes wrecked.

Fiddy 8 said...

25 years from now...

"So, tell me about your relationship with your father growing up."

"Well doctor, on the surface he would make it seem he was doing nice things for me, like take me to the children's farm centre, but what he really wanted to do was to go explore old sites or find books that have to do with that whole Charles Manson thing I told you about."

Just kidding.

orwhut said...

Now, I'm craving ribs.

St Circumstance said...

Excellent pics and post! Adorable little girl as well!! Thank you!!

MHN said...

Mr Humph and CrisPOA - thank you for those kind words. Of course she's a doll - she was conceived in LA during a heavily Mansonised honeymoon!

MHN said...

Fiddy - on current form it's more likely to be her defense attorney asking her that question than her shrink ;)

St C - Patty - thanks, honored to make a small transatlantic contribution. Never seen photos of Dormer anywhere so I was curious.

Robert - now how did I know that would be your favourite photo from all of them?! ;)

grimtraveller said...

Now isn't that interesting ! About 3 or so weeks back, I was having a discussion with someone on another site about the Joel Pugh suicide and as I happened to be driving down to Fulham the next day, I went past the Talgarth and stopped to take some photos and have a good look at the back {I have the pics if you're interested, MHN}. The front of the hotel is on a very busy 6 lane road and if someone was escaping through a window, they'd be seen by half the borough ! But the back is interesting. They've obviously built an extension since December '69. I managed to get up to the wall at the back which is on this alley between the hotel and the train tracks and to be honest, you could get to the windows of the back rooms easily but the room occupant would have to open the windows to let you in.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Looking out your back window to "train tracks" ?


From our current flat you can see two sets of train tracks {though they're a distance away}, from our last flat you could see the train tracks. I've lived in other places where you could see or hear the trains. When my family first moved to London in 1969 {that year !} I had an uncle that lived in Queens Park {my sister and I later ran away from home and ended up there ~ I was 9, she was 8} and I used to love visiting him because his house overlooked the train tracks and I was obsessed with trains as a kid. I used to sit on the fire escape and just watch the trains pull in. I even worked for years on an adventure playground that was underneath the A40 motorway, but which ran alongside the train tracks of the Hammersmith & City line {at one point it was called the Metropolitan line}. Even with a vibrant, happening playground there, some kids used to scale the walls and run across the tracks !

william marshall said...

Thanks for the great post MHN & it appears you're photos will soon be the only thing remaining of another piece of history we all in T/L land love so much Equinox how are you my friend any chance of you making your way across the continent to join the others on the 2016 tour

equinox12314 said...


@William Marshall

Hi William,

I'm fine thanks - I hope you are keeping well these days. I would truly love to be on the annual tour, if funds permitted. Meeting up with the gang here would be a dream come true.

Fiddy 8 said...

MNH, the ribs photograph is a work of art, even without our particular interpretation overlay.

The greatest works of photography art are never staged.

The hunk of meat spilling over the plate, the knife, the american flag, the gold chain, the delicate hand, the crucifix isolated on a black background...brilliant!

Fiddy 8 said...

And the way the fork blends into the flag stripes.

MHN said...

Ha! Fiddy - you just made my wife's day. She makes her own jewellery with those delicate hands, and when she wears black sometimes she reminds me of Sharon Tate in Eye of the Devil. Not that I think about TLB 24-7 or anything.... *nervous laugh*

equinox - if you do make it to the next tour can you smuggle me over in your luggage?

Panamint Patty said...

There are an awful lot of you Brits on this blog aren't there?

MHN said...

Patty, is it time to introduce a quota system?

Robert Hendrickson said...

MICHAEL: PLEASE tell us that YOU staged that Knife / Flag / ribs PHOTO.

The American soldier that helped tackle the French terrorit just got stabbed several times in HIS hometown. There is video and you would think it takes place in some third world country, like the U.S.


christopher butche said...

MHN, your next family meal and Manson hotspot can be combined!

Bruce Davis apparently had a girlfriend who worked in the House of Fraser department store in Manchester, where he would wait for her in the cafe.

House of Fraser bought the store in 1959, so you should be in the same space.

equinox12314 said...

MHN said...

"... She makes her own jewellery with those delicate hands".

It looks great - is Mrs MHN a dedicated jewellery designer or an artist?


MHN said... "equinox - if you do make it to the next tour can you smuggle me over in your luggage?"

I certainly would, but I suspect you would use up all my baggage allowance:):) You would be great company, MHN!





MHN said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SusanB said...

Great info MHN. I enjoy reading about the finer details of the whole Manson tapestry. Well done.

MHN said...

equinox - quit worrying about your baggage allowance. You don't really get how the tours work do you? Once you arrive, one of the acolytes tells you you're ready to meet Matt. Then they escort you in to his cabin, Matt asks you a few questions, welcomes you, and informs you that any money or belongings you brought with you now belong to the entire Manson Family Blog community. He then assigns you your work and tells you when you may eat.

In the evening, if you're lucky, the Col assists Matt in one of his grand crucifixion reenactments. By the end of the weekend your ego has been demolished, and you're ready to be used for Matt's purposes.

MHN said...

Christopher Butche - that is good info my friend, but I'm guessing Matt might think twice about publishing photos of the cafeteria of a department store in Manchester, regardless of the wonderful connection :)

SusanB - thank you :) - I got lucky that Dormer looked so abandoned and creepy.

Robert - "staged"? STAGED?! What do you take me for - some kind of documentary filmmaker?! How dare you sir! :) No the steak shot was honest reportage. However, I did have to briefly borrow a "wife" and "child" to hide the terrible living-in-mommy's-basement-reading-about-Manson-and-shit reality of my existence.

Matt said...

MHN said...

... I'm guessing Matt might think twice about publishing photos of the cafeteria of a department store in Manchester, regardless of the wonderful connection :)


Are you kidding? We brought you a photo of Sadie's poop landing in Venice...


AustinAnn74 said...

Equinox, Texas is fabulous! :)

MHN said...

Matt, I stand (or should that be "squat") corrected.

equinox12314 said...

MHN said... "
In the evening, if you're lucky, the Col assists Matt in one of his grand crucifixion reenactments. By the end of the weekend your ego has been demolished, and you're ready to be used for Matt's purposes"


It sounds like a masochist's dream vacation!!

Robert Hendrickson said...

BTW: The American soldier was stabbed in Sacramento California at almost the exact time as Matt posted this Knife - American Flag - ribs photo.

Makes ME think: Are American Flags bio-degradeable ? Cause OUR legislators in Sacramento just sit around all day and think of GREEN ways to make California more "criminal " friendly. EXCEPT if you have a gringo sur-name like Davis, Atkins, or Manson.

NOW I'm thinking: maybe that's the reason they don't let Bruce OUT. If HE was stabbed on the outside, it might look like WE have a "knife violence" issue HERE.

CrisPOA said...

MHN said...

..."Then they escort you in to his cabin, Matt asks you a few questions, welcomes you, and informs you that any money or belongings you brought with you now belong to the entire Manson Family Blog community."

Hahaha... Loved that! Hey do you guys think anyone here at the blog would refuse to spend time in the Rach if they were invited back in the day? Not me!

Anyway, what was Bruce doing in England anyway? where did he get the money for the trip? I am currently reading Sanders book but didn't get there yet. I don't even know if he explains that.

Mr. Humphrat said...

In that photo I'm imagining your daughter saying "Daddy I want an Oompa Loompa!"

Mr. Humphrat said...

Hmmm, I was thinking there's one photo looking through the window of the cottage with webs on it and the window on the opposite sight is quite a nice abstract image for a painting!

ziggyosterberg said...


MHN said

"However, I did have to briefly borrow a "wife" and "child" to hide the terrible living-in-mommy's-basement-reading-about-Manson-and-shit reality of my existence."


Boy, that sure was an out of nowhere shot at me.


I thought we were friends, MHN?

MHN said...

ziggy, you pantywaist, you had it coming. Go cry to your mommy.

ziggyosterberg said...


What makes you think that I haven't already done that?

Does this mean you won't be playing Xbox online with me tonight?

MHN said...

Ha! Nice. But OFF-TOPIC! The original poster might ask Matt to censure us.

Matt said...

At least it's not crusty poop on sheep's butts...


orwhut said...

I had to shear those nasty sheep.

MHN said...

Thanks for that, Matt. A lovely image with which to start the weekend :)

So does ANYONE think Davis may have had a hand in the Joel Pugh death?

orwhut said...

From what I've read, Sandy, aside from being one of the prettiest girls, contributed her monthly check to the family. Joel encouraged Sandy to leave the family, but she left Joel instead. If all of this is correct, Charlie would have had reason to dislike Joel. Since Charlie appears to have already won, I can't see why he would send Bruce all the way to England to kill him.

equinox12314 said...


MHN said... "...So does ANYONE think Davis may have had a hand in the Joel Pugh death?"

Did Davis know the address Pugh was staying at? Remember, it wasn't so easy to find someone's location back in pre-internet days. Unless, he knew through Sandy perhaps still being in touch with Joel?





Robert Hendrickson said...

Has ANYONE ever thought: what would have happened IF EVERYONE simply refused to get in the Swartz FORD that August night? "NOTHING"

Has ANYONE ever thought: what would have happened IF EVERYONE just refused to pay any attention to LBJ in 1965? "NO Vietnam War"

So what are the main ingredients necessary for ANY society to become involved in a WAR ? Cause therein lies the TRUTH that governs the very manner of existence we call LIFE on earth.

MHN said...

Robert, the willingness to wage war might be the only thing that makes a society real, rather than illusory or abstract.

That is one big difference, I believe, between the US and most European countries. The moment we started to believe ourselves too nuanced, too grown up, and too ethical to really wage war, the moment we started devolving those powers upwards and outwards to the US or the UN, we changed on some nearly intangible level; we became a relic of a society, we became a mere geographic location where disparate people with no sense of shared purpose settled and occupied their own corner. We have no civic life, our charitable giving is dwarfed by that of the US, we are nannied by governments that are mere 'administrations' whose principle purpose is to strike moral postures and keep the welfare cheques rolling. We are no longer a society, we are a random assembly of strangers occupying the same lump of mud. And in a way I can't quite find the words for, that's connected with our unwillingness to wage war and really mean it.

And that's a terrible truth to think about.

orwhut said...

MHN,
If you guys have aquired a disease that makes you unwilling to wage war, I'm in favor of a world wide pandemic.

MHN said...

I understand that desire, orwhut, I really do. If only it were genuinely worldwide I'd be with you 100%

orwhut said...

Maybe, one day...

bucpaul2812 said...

MHN,fantastic contribution! Reagarding the Talgarth and the question mark that surrounded Joel Pugh's death, I always wondered why "Most Haunted" never thought of filming an episode there. The prospect of Yvette Fielding shrieking hysterically while a profoundly disinterested B&B clerk sits in the periphery would be television gold.

MHN said...

Buccal said

Yvette Fielding shrieking hysterically while a profoundly disinterested B&B clerk sits in the periphery would be television gold.

A very pleasing thought! Hehe.

MHN said...

Sorry bucpaul - phone autocorrected your name.

Vermouth Brilliantine said...

What an adorable kid. Looks like she was plucked directly out of Tenniel's illustrations of Alice in Wonderland.

Keep her away from those White Rabbits and mushrooms, MHN.

christopher butche said...

Am I right in thinking that Davis paid for the trip out of inheritance from the death of his father? If so it begs the question why if Manson was all about raising funds why didn't he expect Davis to hand the cash over? And the usual stuff about no one could leave, Davis being second in command and having a second job as the Zodiac killer.

MHN as to the state of society with regard to war, it could by argued that Europe is post-imperialist whereas the US isn't. Here in the UK we no longer have people around the world working for us as part of our white man's burden.

equinox12314 said...

@christopher butche

I am surprised to hear that Daddy Davis bequeathed something to Bruce given his alleged violence towards him. If Charlie didn't expect Bruce to hand over his inheritance, then why did he expect such a gesture from Gary Hinman? Maybe because Gary was seen as a 'soft touch'? With regard to no one being able to leave, I am inclined to think that applied only to the women because Bobby and Tex seemed to come and go back quite readily. Was it Paul Watkins who implied he wasn't able to leave and had to escape Charlie's evil clutches?

Robert Hendrickson said...

YES Michael, you are getting dangerously close to the TRUTH. Isn't it time YOU reveal WHO you really are ? Interpol ? Secret Service ? The "rebel" Professor ? OR too much acid ?

AND how about this: The distance from a Barbaric "Tribe" to a civilized "society" is ONLY a WAR hero away !

So maybe TEX was simply "training" in a new kind of "reality" boot camp. AND maybe Vietnam was merely a new and improved training camp for a new kind of warriors ?

MHN said...

Robert you always make me smile. No intelligence agency would ever take me :)

Moderate amounts of acid once upon a time, too many books, and too many hours spent thinking about the collapse of the western Roman Empire and the fruit Eve offered Adam when a beguiling voice started whispering in her ear.

MHN said...

Vermouth: thank you! But sometimes an Alice comes along who makes you more worried for the white rabbit :)

Robert Hendrickson said...

MICHAEL: Your comments are absolutely enlightening. Tells me the English are survivors in the truest sense. Of course, the UK's geographical location (separated from Europe) provides it with a great advantage. AND so America's RICH land also makes it possibly the REAL Garden of Eden.

AND just look at ALL the people flocking to get here and there.

THUS, I think and think, are there ANY tell-tail signs of how this world event (History of America) actually turn out. It's real scary, but also very stimulating - almost like a super-natural HIGH.

OOPS. I just described the late 1960's, early 1970's and life on the Spahn Ranch, and life on the streets in protest, and life in the military at that time period. I remember being on a date at a house party one Sunday afternoon. The perfect day, in everyway - EXCEPT I could NOT stop thinking about what might be going on in the streets and in the park.

I with-stood the thoughts UNTIL I could no longer relax by the pool and enjoy the lavish food spread. I walked out ALONE and never looked back.

Today I can't even imagine what life would be like without my past experiences - GOOD and BAD - with time they all meld into one delicious HOBO stew. ENJOY it all - cause it's YOUR "special" life.

grimtraveller said...

Panamint Patty said...

"There are an awful lot of you Brits on this blog aren't there ?"


I guess we are kind of awful. Depending on who's writing the story. ☺

Matt said...

I prefer Brits. They conjugate verbs well and don't interject "I mean" and "y'know" or "I mean y'know" into every sentence.


MHN said...

Matt, that's like, you know, just kinda your opinion 'n' stuff. We've gone downhill fast. Fact is, most Americans I know, and I've known many, speak English far more elegantly and less crudely than the average Brit. It's just that none of the Brits on Mansonblog are average, naturally.

Robert Hendrickson said...

OMG - I just realized, EXCEPT for some writing on the side of the blue car, there is NO grafetti. What kind of "foreign" (alien) place is this? Must be the original birth-place of the annaly fixated Republicans.

Looks like YOU guys NEED some very "liberal" aretiests to liven-up YOUR stere-al neighbors.


MHN said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MHN said...

Robert, Dormer Cottage is in a very secluded village, in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by fields and woodland. It's not a graffiti type of place. Which made the presence of the 'c word' on the side of that abandoned car all the more surprising to me. Also, as I say, the cottage has to be reached via some very snarly undergrowth.

Republican? The area has returned a Conservative MP to Parliament since the 1860s, with a brief Liberal interlude from 1906-1910. Some of the MPs have had wonderful old British names:

Alfred Erskine Gathorne-Hardy
Henry Strother Cautley
Evelyn Violet Elizabeth Emmet
Hon. George Joachim Goschen
Edgar March Crookshank
Henry Norman Spalding (Hooray for Captain Spaulding?! "One morning, I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I don't know")

And now, in terminal decline, we live in the age of Dave and Tony. Ugh. If Britain were an animal I would have it humanely put to sleep.

orwhut said...

OOO-EEE-OOO
I'm watching "It Came From Outer Space" on Svengoolie. (That's right, I never grew up.) There's heavy use of the SciFi music machine in the first scenes. I believe it's called a theremin. The movie is set in the desert, and there might even be an entrance to an underground civilization around there somewhere.

Jenn said...

Yes, theremin. Think the solo in Simon and Garfunkel's The Boxer.

orwhut said...

Thanks, Jenn. I don't believe I've ever heard The Boxer.

ziggyosterberg said...


MHN said...

"Some of the MPs have had wonderful old British names:

Hon. George Joachim Goschen"


It doesn't get any more British than that, mate. Herr Goschen was likely from the Upper Battenberg region of England.

The only more British name that I can think of, other than Goschen, is Disraeli.


equinox12314 said...



@orwhut

Orwhut, Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin used the theremin on 'Whole Lotta Love'. There are a number of clips of him doing so live on YouTube.

MHN said...

Ziggy, you little-englander, we've always been a melting-pot. We have a kraut monarch for God's sake! Can you think of anyone more English than Elizabeth II of the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family? Gawd bless you ma'am.

orwhut said...

And, thank you equinox. The Boxer is on youtube as well. When I heard it, I realized I'd heard it many times before.

Simon Wells said...

Hi,

Thanks for the name-check MHN - can I just add that in my researches, I had the full assistance from Joel's family, namely Daniel and David jnr, who they helped fill in the gaps to this young man's tragic demise and were able to help construct a timeline to Joel's movements. Additional help was received from Joel's best friend Jim Balfour, whose clarity of memory was vital to securing a sense of reality to the story.

What struck me as most shocking in this case, was the fact that NO ONE who were claiming to suspect that Joel had been "murdered" by BD, had the courtesy to contact any member of the Pugh family to at least check on the circumstances and connection to Sandy/Family (which were vague and tenuous at times)

Additionally, as you can see from the infamous letter to Sandy, the heavily used quote was taken way out of context.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7aS3Q_ChowA/TCDofM9DNlI/AAAAAAAAAGA/PAQ1BbvB1Hw/s1600/Letter-1%5B1%5D.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7aS3Q_ChowA/TCDofg3mGpI/AAAAAAAAAGI/sMGfBTafNJ8/s1600/Letter-2%5B2%5D.jpg

Additionally, and most hurtful to those close to Joel, the first time family and friends knew of any suspicion over Joel's death was in reading "Helter Skelter". That's pretty shameful from my point of view.

Hopefully my book and blog have gone some way to try and bring some closure on this.

http://joelpughcharlesmanson.blogspot.co.uk/

Regards

Simon Wells

Matt said...

Joel Pugh's story is very saddening. Reading about a young man ending his life over untreated depression is never fun.

Thank you Simon Wells for your great work. It was yet one more Manson myth properly debunked in a scholarly way.


Simon Wells said...

Thank you Matt,

Anyone with further information please contact me through the blog.

Regards

Simon

Robert Hendrickson said...

MICHAEL: Try and SEE it from our point of view. There is a photo of a very young girl and "comments" from a VERY, VERY tuned in guy (sounds like HE could be maybe 60 years old) AND this guy gets up from a Family meal to explore (on HIS own) a deserted village where once an infamous KILLER stayed.

NO Intelligence agency WANTS you - they NEED you.

So what is YOUR real story - or is it simply just another one of those: "No sense makes sense kind'a things ?

My guess is, YOU see some of YOU in Manson.

MHN said...

Simon Wells - thanks for your work on Joel Pugh. I'm really glad to hear his family were involved in your research, it gives him back his humanity. I enjoyed your book very much, and especially the service you did Joel by telling his story rather than treating him merely as another pawn in the Manson saga.

MHN said...

Robert, the truth is more prosaic. My guess is, most people can see something Mansonesque in their psyche. I suppose that's one reason for the enduring interest. The truth is I can't find myself: I love and admire human civilisation and its accomplishments but love to see them in ruins, reclaimed by desert or buried under tons of volcanic ash. I believe in personal freedom and democracy but also think people are mindless sheep who are happy to be dominated, and so deserve to be dominated. I believe a conspiracy rules the earth, but I know that it doesn't. I believe in love, but I know that contempt and disdain fit me more comfortably. I pray daily that God will forgive me for knowing that he is not really there. I find myself compelled to maintain a belief in God because who else will rain down fire from the skies onto the race of vermin currently masquerading as humanity?

Always extremities and always mutually exclusive opposites grinding away inside. Purpose and meaninglessness. Sense, no sense. A notion that all I see is an illusion, for which I am dismally responsible. All human interaction a fiction with arbitrary rules.

Psychotherapy is expensive, so I read about Manson and dream about the desert instead. One day the desert will reclaim everything, I will be gone, you will be gone, Bugliosi will be gone, Tex will be gone, but Manson might just never die.

That's all. Enough?

Matt said...

God darnit, Mr. Michael, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.


Robert Hendrickson said...

MICHAEL: Do YOU realize how lucky (blessed) you are?

Everytime YOU come to a fork in the road - whichever path you take is the RIGHT one - cause there is NO WRONG one for you.

I'm guessing YOUR wife recognizes this, otherwise YOU never would have left the dinner table.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Yes thanks Simon for the link to your site on Joel Pugh. Very good work.

MHN said...

Matt - if I remember rightly, Lamarr's reply was, "shit-kicker". Greatest film ever.

Robert: I've never thought of things that way. I am not free. There is no wrong path, but neither am I ever happy that a step towards the truth has been taken. Your deduction is remarkable and accurat:, I found a wife who understands that sometimes without warning you have to stoop down to pull up from the mud the tip of a root that has burrowed 5000 miles through the soil to find you, even though you can only dream of ever travelling far enough to see the branches of the tree itself.

equinox12314 said...


MHN said...

"..you have to stoop down to pull up from the mud the tip of a root that has burrowed 5000 miles through the soil to find you, even though you can only dream of ever travelling far enough to see the branches of the tree itself."

MHN, you are starting to sound like Charlie:):)

orwhut said...

Simon,
Ditto on what Humpf said.

orwhut said...

I couldn't take it any longer. I went to the store and bought a rack of ribs.

MHN said...

Orwhut - now I want some. That Bruce Davis has a lot to answer for...