Tuesday, January 3, 2017

TMZ Reporting Manson Hospitalized









198 comments:

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

It would be a nice start to the new year, wouldn't it?

Panamint Patty said...

Other news outlets are picking it up now. The rumors however have been circulating for some time.

Sam Smith said...

I pray my man Charlie pulls through. He is a hero and a legend.

Awaitingmyescapewithlove said...

I really can't have anything other than mercy for Charlie. It's tragedy all around but his horrible life story rarely gets mentioned

grimtraveller said...

It's made the news in England, I just heard it now. The newsreader was a young woman and it seemed as though she had never heard of Charles Manson. She read it with as much familiarity as she would if she were reading a news item about a Burundi tribesman quitting the village to go to university.

Awaitingmyescapewithlove said...

I really can't have anything other than mercy for Charlie. It's tragedy all around but his horrible life story rarely gets mentioned

Same here. Just reading about his life until he was 16 an thinking about some of the breaks he caught through no fault of his own and taking it in as reality that happened rather than just words on a page always shines the light of balance.
He could well be coming down fast.

starviego said...

Even if he dies tonight, THE SOUL will always be an American legend.

Matt said...

I hear it's gastro-intestinal issues. Probably just a backed-up fart.

ColScott said...

They've been killing this guy for 2000 years

Panamint Patty said...

Patty has also heard heart or cancer so who knows? Rumors abound.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Regardless of what Charlie ordered, didn't order, persuaded, influenced or wanted .... or regardless of how his conversation with Tex actually went, one thing is certain: he could have put a stop to it all and he didn't. He's a heartless bastard and gets no break from me.

kathleen digregorio said...

Hope he doesn't get dropped on the hard floor three or four or five times during a gurney transfer

Mr. Humphrat said...

"They've been killing this guy for 2000 years?" Col Scott is more in Charlie's camp than I realized.

Having said that, I believe in treating all people humanely whenever possible and hope Charlie is given good care.

I too feel for anyone who had an upbringing like he did. It's too bad he couldn't have gotten help before it was too late.

Manson Mythos said...

Losers on social media are celebrating. But when Obama gives his final goodbyes, they will cry their eyes out. A man who dropped more bombs on Muslims majorities than any other president. Who appealed to noble motives and trained and armed "rebels" to go to war and overthrow legit governments (they turned out to be terrorists still killing with those weapons). Manson on the other hand, was never proven to order the death of just 9 people. In a perfect world, Manson would be out and the US leaders of the last 15 years would be in dungeons.

Dreath said...

Let us not forget that Manson received a 40 year life extension.

Regardless of whether you are in the Manson Mythos/ Col Scott camp or the Zelda camp his peers, our neighbors, people not too dissimilar to those who post here decided he should leave this world in 1971.

And just to add a point: those damned liberals you hate took away the people's verdict when SCOTUS found the penalty unconstitutional.

Otherwise this post would not be happening.

xreles said...

Charlie gonna fly now

ziggyosterberg said...


ColScott said...

They've been killing this guy for 2000 years


"God don't want me yet, man. I got more feet to taste."

joseph esposito said...

I see Charles Manson the same way I see the Elephant man...he grew up in a cage and was treated like a circus animal from the time he was born, I see that as a mitigating circumstance, and he gets my prayers...God bless Charles Manson...

Awaitingmyescapewithlove said...

It's funny how selective we really are.

HellzBellz said...

In / on the News here too.... Can only wish Charles all the luck ... I mean come on its an elderly man now , We all die at a certain age....

penny lane said...

Lol...onya Matt.."death by massive fart "?.I wish he would hurry up and die...RH is waiting for the TRUTH!.. I miss the man 😩

orwhut said...

If Chalie dies I hope someone sees an opportunity and pays Mrs. Hendrickson big money for his material.

St Circumstance said...

Mixed emotions....

Whereas I understand that Charlie is not going to be around forever, and wrote myself this summer that he is nearing the twilight of his life, I am still feeling a little melancholy at the reality of it.

My guess is that something fairly significant must have occurred for him to have been moved. Not sure how many significant health issues he will be able to handle at his age.

I do not feel good at the thought of Charlie Manson suffering. I do not feel good about the grief it will cause the people who care about him. If this is his last dance, I will feel condolence for those who feel loss. It really isn't about me understanding those people or why they feel the way they do. Its about understanding what it feels like when someone looses someone else that is important to them.

Don't we all understand that?

I am no fan of Manson, nor do I think he was a particularly good guy. I think he belongs in jail and deserved to spend his life there. But, he has fascinated me for many, many years. His story, and legacy will stick with me forever. I would be lying through my teeth if I said that the idea of Charlie being gone didn't make me a little sad...

Manson Mythos said...

On the bright side, Charlie still outlived most of the useless bags of meat that are celebrating this news right now. The world will feel a bit emptier without Manson. Which says a lot, considering he's been locked away in a cell for almost half a century. Whereas their passing will be a non issue. Even if on the other side of the law, his insight into things were a great contribution. While those who view his death as good just parrot the most wisdom-less popular opinion from the comfort of their pampered lives.

I find it funny how dying at the age of 82 of natural causes is looked at as some form of karma from the nitwits who overpopulate society. While the death of hollywood low-life is untimely. Is karma universal or Does the universe dish it out at random, or is God selective about it? Or do low intellect people who post stupidity because the "like" notifications on Facebook give their meaingless lives validity?

St Circumstance said...

Deb Tate wrote an Op Ed, or whatever that term is, for the LA times about Parole:


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-tate-krenwinkel-parole-hearing-20170104-story.html

St Circumstance said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
St Circumstance said...

This might sound like garbage lol I know that- but there is a 3 in about 8 to 12 chance that I personally know the Doctor treating Charlie...

He is at Mercy Downtown in Bakersfield- a Dignity Health Hospital.

Small world sometimes....

Awaitingmyescapewithlove said...

Amen.

Dreath said...

One’s death, even Manson’s, is not a karmic event.

Now…..

If Charlie afterwards discovered that eternity for him consists of reliving the night of August 8-9 reincarnated again and again as one of the victims.

That would be karma.

St Circumstance said...

OK ....

I tried but I jsut cant help myself sometimes :)

A word about Charlies " Horrible Life Story"

Charlie had a bad mom. Absentee parents are a tough thing to grow up with, but about 1/3 of the kids I grew up with lived in one parent homes, and that's where the parties always were- because the one parent was never home.

That is it... That was what he had going against him.

Charlie also had relatives who were good to him. He had a chance to see what his mother was about and do better if he wanted it. He chose to steal and get in trouble instead.

Charlie walked into the summer of love and had all the opportunity in the world. He had a group of woman who did anything he asked. He had an opportunity to play music with some of the most famous musicians of his time.

He chose to steal from them and take from them until they no longer wanted him around

Charlie had his run of the ranch and guys willing to work and steal for him. He kept pushing the crime until it turned violent.

It seems to me that however it ends- the only person Charlie should blame for his horrible life story is himself. He didn't have anything happen to him that's unusual. Anything he experienced in the prisons were his own fault- he kept getting himself put away.

Now maybe you feel he was treated unfairly by the system- and maybe history wil remember him unfairly for things Tex did...

But Charlie had a life most people who are into that generation would dream about for awhile there. He and he alone blew it. He did nothing at all during the TLB trials but show off, so again- mostly his own fault that he was found guilty.

Who or what has been more hard for Charlie to overcome in his life than Charlie lol??

St Circumstance said...

lol Look- all I am saying is that there are Haitians and cubans here who floated here on boats made for 15 filled with 35. They work 80 hours a week and send every penny home. There are people who have disabilities or mental problems. There are kids who are born or sold into sexual slavery, or actual slavery.

People are born into Scientology and never own a drivers license or see their parents at all, and will never own a dollar of their own. They get locked up and forced to clean shit with toothbrushes when they talk out of line.

I could go on and on...

I dont think any of the above would find Charlie smoking weed at Dennis Wilsons house before and orgy all that bad...

Manson Mythos said...

I read Matthew Roberts is down at the hospital making a scene. When is that fraud going to stop clinging to his lies?

orwhut said...

I'd like to see one last hurrah from Charlie. Maybe he'll let himself out of the hospital window on a rope made from bed sheets and lead law enforcement on a merry chase.

Matt said...

Or Star - dessed as a laundry lady - sneaks him down to the delivery garage buried under sheets in a cart where Greywolf has a 400 hp mustang ready to bolt to the desert.


Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Charlie's an environmentalist: it would need to doing Golar Wash in a Tesla.

Dreath said...

or a Prius

bucpaul2812 said...

I can't help but wonder what will happen when Charlie does shuffle this mortal coil in respect to Gypsy's autobiography. From what I was led to believe, it was finished years ago and has yet to be published. Why would anyone put all that effort into completing this book and not having it see the light of day? Was she, or was she advised to wait for the "right" time to have it published? I imagine having it published hot on the heels after Charlie's (eventual) death would do wonders for sales but even so, Gypsy was one of the oldest girls at Spahn ranch, so by the law of averages, it's not like she has the advantage of time on her side. The more I think about it, this gets curiouser and curiouser...

St Circumstance said...

"Charles Manson is alive right now," Khokhobashvili said by telephone on Wednesday, adding that Manson was still "assigned" to the prison in Corcoran. She declined to comment further....


Right now?

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

St Circumstance said...

"Charles Manson is alive right now," Khokhobashvili said by telephone on Wednesday, adding that Manson was still "assigned" to the prison in Corcoran. She declined to comment further....


Right now?

The spokeswoman doesn't understand. There is only NOW and coming to NOW.
Right now would be redundant.

St Circumstance said...

Good point Zelda

DebS said...

Manson Mythos said...
I read Matthew Roberts is down at the hospital making a scene. When is that fraud going to stop clinging to his lies?

Just because Matthew had his DNA compared to Jason Freeman's DNA and there was no match does not mean that he isn't Manson's son. It could be that Jason Freeman is NOT Manson's grandson. Charles Manson has never volunteered his DNA to test with anyone's DNA. For all anyone knows Michael Brunner may not be Manson's son!

Rosalie, Jay White's mother, did not claim Jason as a grandchild. Read her obit. The only grandchild she claimed was the son of Jay and his wife.

http://www.mansonblog.com/2013/09/people-passing-through-our-lives.html

St Circumstance said...

I have a new idea for a book.. In the vein of of Faith's Book about LULU.

The Long Prison Journey of Charles Manson...

From an LA times article that just came out:

"During his more than four decades behind bars, convicted murderer Charles Manson — the mastermind behind a gory 1969 Los Angeles killing rampage — has been an unrepentant and incorrigible inmate, repeatedly cited for behavioral problems including hiding cellphones and a hacksaw in his cell.

State corrections officials say Manson, now 82, has incurred hundreds of rules violations

Over the years, he has been cited for assault, possessing a weapon, threatening staff, and possessing a cellphone, Terry Thornton, a spokeswoman for the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, said in an email Wednesday.

“Suffice it to say that he cannot be described as a model prisoner,” she said.

Officials have said over the years that he spat in guards’ faces, threw hot coffee at a prison staffer, started fights, tried to cause a flood and set his mattress ablaze.

Sources say Manson is now seriously ill. He was taken this week from Corcoran State Prison in the Central Valley to a Bakersfield hospital for an undisclosed medical issue, two sources familiar with the situation said. The sources requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the matter.

As an incarcerated man, Manson’s bizarre and violent outbursts were on display even during his 9½-month trial, frustrating authorities and prosecutors. Manson, who was said to relish the attention he received in the packed courtroom, appeared in the courtroom with an X carved into his forehead. (Later, he converted the X into a swastika.)

In June 1970, he was removed from the courtroom after taking on the pose of the crucifixion, bowing his head and extending his arms, refusing to sit down. In October, he jumped from the defense table toward the bench of Judge Charles H. Older, telling the judge: “In the name of Christian justice, someone should cut your head off.”

In January 1971, he was again ejected from the courtroom after punching his attorney.

In 1982, while Manson was housed at the California Medical Facility in Vacaville, prison guards discovered a hacksaw blade, marijuana and LSD in Manson’s cell. Guards said they found other items in the facility that indicated Manson may have been trying to escape, including nylon rope and a catalog that showed how to order hot-air balloons.

Two years later, Manson was doused with a flammable liquid and set ablaze by a fellow Vacaville inmate, who told guards he attacked Manson in retaliation for threats the cult leader made against him for practicing the Hare Krishna faith. Manson was treated for second- and third-degree burns, and his scalp, hair and beard were singed.

In 1985, he tried to smuggle a hacksaw blade into San Quentin State Prison in the sole of his shoe, days after being transferred to that facility from Vacaville.

In March 2009, prison guards found an LG flip phone hidden under Manson’s prison mattress. He made calls and sent text messages to people in California, New Jersey, Florida and British Columbia.

Recordings of Manson’s raspy, high-pitched voice, broadcast by the entertainment news show “Inside Edition,” featured him singing, “I’ve seen the world spinning on fire, I’ve danced and sang in the devil’s choir.”

Prison officials found Manson with a second cellphone, equipped with a camera, in January 2011.

In 2014, Manson and Afton Elaine Burton, a 26-year-old Manson devotee, were granted a marriage license, but it expired before the two could marry. "



He has stayed busy lol

Manson Mythos said...

@DebS

Roberts is not telling anyone that Corcoran sanctioned a private DNA test with DNA directly from Charlie himself. As Maury Povich would say, Charlie is NOT the father.

If you do not believe me, you can ask Marlin Marynick, since he had somewhat of a hand in setting the whole thing up.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

St, the book should be called Give My Steak To Mike.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nggE3jrIbj4

Matt said...

Nice segment of raw footage, Zelda.

DebS said...

I'll do that MM, thanks for the info.

St Circumstance said...

Yeah it is!!

Panamint Patty said...

MM and Patty had that exchange on fb a while back. She was not able to reach Marynick though. If true, it's huuuuuge news!

Manson Mythos said...

110% true right from Marynick's mouth. Marlin isn't the lying type and didn't even bad mouth Roberts. He expressed sympathy for him and his not knowing who his real father is, but confirmed that yes, he is not Manson's son and is being dishonest with everyone. The changes in his stories and the other kooky crap he has said should be evident of that. Bullshit about being the "moonchild" and being "dosed" and Polanski commissioning his birth. The guy is a nut.

ColScott said...

Humpy- Don't anyone talk about a Col Scott fucking camp. Charlie dying is part of life. He fucking killed no one. He is a loser. A punk. An idiot who wanted attention. He made his own bed.

I am in the reality fucking camp.

Bug is a far bigger criminal than Charlie. He had a responsibility to the TRUTH and did nothing but shit on it. Charlie got his karma. Bug didn't. Not yet.

And Debra Tate has got cojones of steel. She wasn't even a Tate at the end.

St Circumstance said...

Ahhh Col...

There and there only are you always wrong friend.

She will always be a Tate. Sharon will always be her sister. She will live all of her life with this loss.


I admire everything else about you but this. Deb Tate lost family. Please give her a break :)

She cant chose her parents decisions any more than Charlie could. But she was a young impressionable girl. If this fucked her mind forever, so what? Does she get no break at all for what she went through?

I do agree she has the perseverance of her mom. I hope that my honest opinions do not offend...

St Circumstance said...

You know when things like this get to me... I go to Key West lol. See you all next week. The Heavy pets are at the Green Parrot this weekend :)


"Apeman"

I think I'm sophisticated
'Cos I'm living my life like a good homosapien
But all around me everybody's multiplying
Till they're walking round like flies man
So I'm no better than the animals sitting in their cages
In the zoo man
'Cos compared to the flowers and the birds and the trees
I am an ape man
I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized
'Cos I'm a strict vegetarian
But with the over-population and inflation and starvation
And the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an ape man
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man
I'm an ape man I'm a King Kong man I'm ape ape man
I'm an ape man
'Cos compared to the sun that sits in the sky
Compared to the clouds as they roll by
Compared to the bugs and the spiders and flies
I am an ape man
In man's evolution he has created the cities and
The motor traffic rumble, but give me half a chance
And I'd be taking off my clothes and living in the jungle
'Cos the only time that I feel at ease
Is swinging up and down in a coconut tree
Oh what a life of luxury to be like an ape man
I'm an ape, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man
I look out my window, but I can't see the sky
'Cos the air pollution is fogging up my eyes
I want to get out of this city alive
And make like an ape man
Come and love me, be my ape man girl
And we will be so happy in my ape man world
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man
I'll be your Tarzan, you'll be my Jane
I'll keep you warm and you'll keep me sane
And we'll sit in the trees and eat bananas all day
Just like an ape man
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man.
I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore
And make like an ape man

ziggyosterberg said...


I can see Marlin not wanting to publicize the fact that Matthew Roberts is lying, because as a mental health professional, he feels compassion for him. That might be why he's not responding to people, if that's the case.

I got the impression from some of the things that Matthew Roberts said in Marlin's book, that Roberts was suffering from some form of mental illness, and that Marlin knew it, and knew that he was lying, but just let it be.

From what Cappy said in her conversation on MansonMythos YouTube channel, it sounds like frauds like Matthew Roberts have been pulling that scam (claiming to be Manson Family children) for decades now. And unsurprisingly, the common thread is mental illness.

St Circumstance said...

Hey as I leave :


The late Sharon Tate's younger sister does not have hate in her heart toward Charles Manson and his followers for their grisly murders in Los Angeles decades ago, but she does believe he should already be dead.

In an interview with The Hollywood Reporter on Wednesday, a day after Manson was transported to the hospital from Califnornia's Corcoran State Prison because he is reportedly severely ill, Debra Tate said she is not sure how she will feel when the infamous cult leader finally dies, but for now, she is not wishing it to happen.

"He has got a gastrointestinal problem, but I was not given the impression it is fatal. But because of his advanced age, anything can become a problem," Tate told THR of the 82-year-old. "I know people wish him ill ... but because of my Christian upbringing, I don't wish ill will on any of these people."

California State Prison officials have been mum on any update concerning whether Manson was transferred to a hospital or why, but they did confirm he is still alive. As for why any prisoner would be taken off site to a hospital, Terry Thornton, a spokeswoman for the California Department of Corrections, told THR, "Under the Eighth Amendment, we are required to provide prisoners with adequate medical care."

Matt said...

The NY Post is a tabloid so take this for what it is.


Matt said...

ziggyosterberg said...

I got the impression from some of the things that Matthew Roberts said in Marlin's book, that Roberts was suffering from some form of mental illness, and that Marlin knew it, and knew that he was lying, but just let it be.


Helecopters


ColScott said...

How did Deb Tate's Christian upbringing figure into her frolicking fully naked at 17 with drug dealers on her sister's lawn?

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

Charlie....fucking killed no one

Although with Shorty and Lotsapoppa, it wasn't for want of trying !

ziggyosterberg said...


Matt said...

Helecopters


alien sexual torture

Matt said...

ColScott said...
How did Deb Tate's Christian upbringing figure into her frolicking fully naked at 17 with drug dealers on her sister's lawn?


That's when Roman wasn't interested in boning her


ColScott said...

Grimmy


Correct- He could have killed Crowe. Probably wanted to. I believe he wanted to kill Shorty too but bloodthirsty fuckwit Tex got in there. I think he could have killed Hinman- that sword was unwieldy.

He is a PUNK. A piece of shit. For each of those attempted murders he should have done 5 years.

Means he got out in 1984. Around Adam Gabriel's time.

ColScott said...

MattMeister


Roman didn't want to bone her he already had her older actually beautiful sister. Roman had plenty of broads.

Dreath said...

ColScott said: "For each of those attempted murders he should have done 5 years."

Unless any of them died. Then he'd likely be convicted of murder and go away for 47+ years.

Oh wait, that's what happened.

ColScott said...

back then? 15 years MAX

please be accurate or don't fucking post

Dreath said...

ColScott,

Back at ya, please look at the law or don't post.

DebS said...

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/health-scare-scratches-charles-manson-from-trumps-list-of-supreme-court-picks

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Trump should have named Charlie as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. The 'hood be goin' Spahn-style!

Dreath said...

You don't get to participate in a felony (kidnapping-not letting someone leave their home/ robbery-stealing cars under coercion) and not be guilty of murder if anyone kills anyone and you were part of any of it: felony murder.

If you 'help' a murder occur or encourage it in any way you are guilty of that murder: aiding and abetting a murder.

And if you conspire with others to kill someone (even if you don't know who they are and never make a contract with anyone) you are not only guilty of 'conspiracy to commit murder' you are guilty of every crime committed by every member of the conspiracy....so when Watson stabbed Sharon Tate...so did Manson and he's guilty of her murder.

This is how he was convicted of 'murder'.

If you don't like the law- change the law. But calling it attempted murder is like saying the Titanic hit an ice cube. Gary Hinman died, Manson was there and cut his ear off, they stole his cars, Manson said 'be a man' to BB- murder, not attempted murder.

The Col. is correct- if that is ALL Manson did and no one died, but when Gary Hinman died and Shorty died and 7 others died, Manson's involvement put him on death row because.....[return to the top]

Sorry, done now. This Manson didn't kill anyone stuff just irks me- attack the right issue... not the legal basis for the conviction...if the Bug is right the verdict is right. Attack the evidence.

Matt said...

This is unsubstantiated but I believe reliable:

His liver failed and it backed up toxins in his colon.

He was given last rites and he agreed to have his hair cut and clean shaved.

His hand cuffs were removed.

He is in denial about his health failing.

He and the priest had a long talk and the priest said that he believes that he washed away all of his sins.

ziggyosterberg said...


Holy shit. Manson is Catholic?

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

Bug is a far bigger criminal than Charlie. He had a responsibility to the TRUTH and did nothing but shit on it

In terms of the Tate/LaBianca killings ?

In 3 recent topics {the one about fallen sheep, the one about the Chessmen song and this one} you've implied or stated outright that Bugliosi knew the truth about this case but lied so as to give us his "Helter Skelter" version of it.
Where has that ever come out ? I'd love to read this evidence for myself to make some sense of it.
Susan Atkins in her last book {if it actually was her} says that by the time of the penalty phase Bugliosi knew HS was shit but couldn't go back on it. She offers no proof, just the opinion that the copycat {which he was on record as rejecting at the time} motive was known by him. But he never denied it.
Manson Mythos in his various guises implied and stated the same and when I asked him for evidence or something that backed up his assertion, it wasn't forthcoming.
In a case like this, to state Bugliosi happily presided over the conviction and death sentence of someone knowing it to be false is huge. It's worthy of some heavy weather discussion.

St Circumstance said...

Matthew Roberts, the “son” of cult leader Charles Manson, rushed to the prisoner’s side after he heard about his hospitalization Tuesday. Roberts found out about the news from Manson’s fiancée, Afton “Star” Burton. Roberts is not Manson’s biological son, but is one of his devoted followers.

“I want to get up there in person and see what's going on. This could be it, that's my greatest fear. If he's on his deathbed I would like to tell him I love him, because I do,” Roberts told Radar Online in an exclusive report Wednesday. “Everybody has a unique and special sort of love for their progenitors even if they are different or disturbed or monsters.”

He hasn’t seen the notorious cult leader yet, but Roberts is hoping for the chance to visit Manson at the hospital, which is 60 miles from where the mass murderer was imprisoned in Corcoran, California. “Just him looking at me and me looking at him could be a pretty profound experience,” Roberts said. “I've never known what it’s like to lay eyes on my biological parents. That would be a big thing for me.”

Manson is reportedly getting surgery for a heart related problem. He is in “serious condition,” said Roberts.

Roberts wants to continue Manson’s message if he dies, but only the “nonviolent revolution of consciousness" and the “evolution of the human spirit.”



Sigh....

St Circumstance said...

My ex who cruelly dumped me bailed on me taking care of our mutt this weekend at the last minute. As he has a bum leg currently- I cant take him with me to Keys....

So I guess Ill sit around here all weekend and do the Charlie watch lol


I think that if Charlie passes there should be a gathering of his people. I wonder if Star and Greywolf and Roberts get along with George and Sandy and Lynette? I think I asked George if they were friends but I don't remember for sure, or if he answered. I wonder if Michael Channels, AC and other people who correspond with him network with each other?

Lynn broke out of jail the last time she heard Charlie was ill... I wonder if anyone else has already started the pilgrimage to Central California?

I almost feel like heading out there myself- except Bakersfield is a bogus place and smells funny.

St Circumstance said...

Also- while waiting all night to hear if I could go or not I got to thinking about something...

I dont think if Charlie dies - at this point- it will make much of a difference for the others at the parole hearings.

BUT,

I wonder if Charlie had died 10 years ago and was no longer around to serve as a reminder...

Would that have given any of the others any better chance of getting out?


By the way- they better hurry up and interview him about whipping Pats ass so she can get denied again, before its too late...

ziggyosterberg said...


St Circumstance said...

I almost feel like heading out there myself- except Bakersfield is a bogus place and smells funny.

"Right turn, Clyde."



St Circumstance said...

lol is that where that was filmed? I did not know that lol-

That was a classic movie... I loved that movie. Ruth Gordon was never better

"Goddamn Ape"... "Clyde is an orangutan ma"

I will always remember her for that movie and of course- Rosemary's baby :)

Marlene Ful said...

He is Dead

St Circumstance said...

I am having issues confirming that.....

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Matt said...

He and the priest had a long talk and the priest said that he believes that he washed away all of his sins.

With all that washing you'd think his arms would fall off.

DebS said...

Marlene, please don't post something like that without a link or a source. There is absolutely nothing I can find to corroborate.......

DebS said...

Zelda Formaldehyde said...
Matt said...

He and the priest had a long talk and the priest said that he believes that he washed away all of his sins.
With all that washing you'd think his arms would fall off


Wait, was it the priest that washed away Charlie's sins or the other way around?

St Circumstance said...

Ziggy- one other movie made in Bakersfield- Best of Times- Robin Williams and Kurt Russell...

Cheesy movie but funny in spots. Robins Williams opening monolouge is classic:

"Finally we are going to be beat Bakersfield. But that no good son of a bitch dropped the ball.

" I was that son of a bitch"

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Deb, Charlie is his own personal Jesus ... he can wash away his own. Quite a neat trick, huh?

FrankM said...

Perhaps Marlene saw the post at http://now8news.com/charles-manson-dead-at-age-80/ ??

St Circumstance said...

I came across that too while searching for verification lol

St Circumstance said...

This is best info I can find:


Charles Manson remained hospitalized in Bakersfield with a sigmoid lesion and lower gastrointestinal bleeding.

A sigmoid lesion is a benign or malignant lesion on the sigmoid colon, which is part of the large intestine.

Manson arrived at Mercy Hospital's Truxtun Avenue facility via the ER and was signed in as “John Doe,”

This is not the first time Manson has been treated locally, according to reports. An unnamed corrections department officials sated that Manson was taken to a hospital off prison grounds months ago.

FrankM said...

Lest there be any doubt see Snopes at http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/manson.asp. And yes, it is good practice to source news snippets, especially when they are as core as this :-)

ziggyosterberg said...


St C - I remember that movie. They used to show it on HBO a lot. I think Holly Palance was married to the director. I always find that weird when directors have their wives do nude or sex scenes.

The Columbo episode where Ruth Gordon locked that guy in the safe was one of my favs. Also the Bill Shatner and Johnny Cash one.

The Onion Field is another movie that I always associate with Bakersfield.

Dreath said...

Ruth Gordon was superb.

Harold and Maude #1.

Nonymous said...

I don't know if "Helter Skelter" was a motive for any murder, but if you listen to audio interviews on cielodrive.com from late 1969 it's definitely something that a lot of the people hanging around Manson, and Manson himself, discussed regularly. Who knows if they really believed in it? It gets brought up over and over in the audio tapes and it's mentioned in the time period before the murderers were getting publicity and before arrests for the murders.

Matt said...

Dreath said...

Ruth Gordon was superb.

Harold and Maude #1.


The music was pretty good, too.


ziggyosterberg said...


Love this scene from Harold & Maude

Dreath said...

Great scene!

One of my favorite lines:

Maude: "A lot of people enjoy being dead. But they are not dead, really. They're just backing away from life. *Reach* out. Take a *chance*. Get *hurt* even. But play as well as you can. Go team, go! Give me an L. Give me an I. Give me a V. Give me an E. L-I-V-E. LIVE! Otherwise, you got nothing to talk about in the locker room."

Matt said...

ziggyosterberg said...

Love this scene from Harold & Maude


She sure was cute...


Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Nonymous, I think it's fair to say that members of the Manson Family believed in the idea of Helter Skelter in varying degrees, or not at all. There's no doubt it was something that was talked about. In the end, much of what the killers say is that it wasn't really what the murders were about; there were other things at play. The fact it has been accepted as the motive in the murders over time by the mass media is unfortunate and inaccurate, but it's there because it makes for a fascinating story. But that's what the media does.

Matt said...

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

The fact it has been accepted as the motive in the murders over time by the mass media is unfortunate and inaccurate, but it's there because it makes for a fascinating story. But that's what the media does.


And people act like fake news just started...


ziggyosterberg said...


This just in :


Harold and Maude are Matthew Roberts' real parents

Manson Mythos said...

https://www.isupportcause.com/result/care-for-manson/puivc

St Circumstance said...

I never saw Harold and Maude...

I will seek it out shortly....

Dreath said...

Saint,

One of my top ten.

ColScott said...

Do you know how tiring it is to address Dreath and Grim and GrumpPahrump and all the other people who don't bother to read the ONLY Official TLB Blog or even this one?

To Dreath and anyone else shooting at Sidewinders in fucking Arizona trailer parks-

1- I have forgotten more law than you will ever learn. My point, made clearly, was that even if Manson had been convicted of murder, conspiracy, attempted, the going rate back then for what he did was 15 years- if that.

2- I never stated or implied that BUG knew the motive or motives (may have been multiple). I do know he perjured himself in a capital case. He also made up a motive and sold it to a jury. He threatened witnesses (like the girls) with their children being taken away if they didn't swing his way. He put Little Paul on the stand to diss the Family so he could TAKE the Family over. BUG did not care about the truth just about getting Charlie. He already had the actual killers cold.

You know what reverberates for me? In his novel Helter Skelter, he tells Melcher (in order to get him to testify for him) that Charlie was not looking for him- that he knew he and Candy had moved away. There is substantial evidence that this is false. But Bug wants the reader- and presumably Melcher- to think otherwise.


Why?


Is revenge not as big a motive as an imaginary civil war?

St Circumstance said...
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St Circumstance said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
St Circumstance said...
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St Circumstance said...

Nahhh... I don feel like doing the motive thing :)

St Circumstance said...

9:23 am today:


California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation spokeswoman Terry Thornton told the Associated Press only that the 82-year-old was alive. But he was seriously sick and suffering from gastrointestinal bleeding, according to the Los Angeles Times.

most recent I could find from AP

St Circumstance said...

While scouring the news and internet for Manson updates- I came across a video of 4 teenagers beating up and torturing a mentally challenged kid while:

1. texting the victims parents
2. streaming it live on Facebook
3. Calling him racial slurs

I am still trying to figure out if the cruelty or stupidity is more telling. I think it is a tie.

They will get charged with Hate crimes I hope and even though the kid is alive- I would put all 4 of these animals together in Charlies old cell for the rest of their lives.

The criminal world should be glad the system doesn't use the Saint Circumstance Matrix for sentencing....

Dreath said...

ColScott,

Can you maybe do me a favor- spare me the personal insults. I don’t think I have ever done that to you and while it may intimidate others who comment here I just think it makes you sound like you are someone who can’t tolerate other opinions. And you strike me as someone who is far too intelligent for that to be the case.

PS: That’s not what you said and, again, you must have me confused with someone else. I don’t live in Arizona.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

St.... yeah that one is disgusting. Decency aside, it proves that people are heavily addicted to mob mentality at the expense of actually thinking.

St Circumstance said...

Craziness...

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

ColScott: Not going to tell you something you don't already know, but truth in a courtroom is little more than a convenient by-product. Bugliosi had a case to win, and sending a skid like Charlie down the river was an insignificant price to pay to get a clean sweep. As well, if I'm on that jury and I'm hearing some fantastical HS nonsense, and NOBODY on the defense disputes it on the stand, what am I to think? Resting with no defense witnesses called was an open invitation to summarily put them all away, Charlie included. For the jury, it was an easy out.

St Circumstance said...

"That town's always been good to me." - Charles Manson, on Peoria

With Charles Manson in declining health, it's unsettling yet riveting that a teen Manson honed his fledgling criminal career in Peoria.

The city plays no big role in Manson biographies, as his wrongdoings here were child's play, especially in light of his later lethalness. However, as appalling as it might seem, the post-Helter Skelter Manson would maintain a wistful fondness for Peoria - as he told me a quarter-century ago.

"Yeah, I did a lot of growing up in that town - fast growing up," he wrote to me. "They put me in the jail last time I went through there. .... It may sound foolish, but that town has always been sweet for some reason."

As it turns out, Manson's arrest here was accidental, as was our becoming unlikely pen pals.

In many ways, 1991 existed in a much more innocent era, before the internet and today's anything-goes mentality. Late that year, the now-defunct Comic Zone Productions published a line of comic books called "Psycho Killers." which at the time was greeted by the mainstream public with shock and disgust. Today? We'd just yawn at something like that, as you can find ghastly true-life tales on TV all the time.

Anyway, copies of the comic book's first four issues were sent to the Journal Star, as part of what I'm sure was a shotgun attempt to spark publicity from any newspaper who'd take the bait. I recall spotting the issues sprawled across a newsroom desk, with other reporters marveling at the gall of such exploitation.

Out of idle curiosity, I grabbed issue No. 1: Charles Manson. I started to thumb through the pages, which were filled with cheap-looking, black-and-white sketches like the horror magazines of the day. As I shook my head, I spotted a startling word on page three:

"Peoria."

Huh? Manson in Peoria?

That's what the comic book said. A teen Manson had busted out of Boys Town with a pal named Blackie Neilson, then fled Nebraska and pulled an armed robbery. As the narrative recounted, "The boys wound up with Blackie's uncle in Peoria, Illinois. He coached them on their first burglary. Manson and Neilson took $150 for the $1,500 take."

I was surprised. I'd been in Peoria almost four years yet never heard about the local connection to Manson. Turns out, neither did my colleagues. So I zipped over to the newspaper morgue and found scant mention of Manson: just two briefs, written decades later, about a run-in with city police - literally.

On March 22, 1949, two patrolmen heard a radio call of a break-in at Earl Johnson Chevrolet, on West Main Street near North Garfield Avenue. The cops cruised to the dealership and stopped at the side door. As an officer recalled later, the door suddenly flew open.

"This kid comes running out and jumps in our car," the officer later would recall. "He thought we were his pickup car. The second his butt was on that seat, he was looking at two pistols looking at him. He looks at us as says, "Ah, (expletive)! Cops!"

That kid was a 14-year-old Charles Manson, on the lam from Boys Town with several small-time arrests on his rap sheet. Arrested with him in Peoria was another teen (the stories don't identify him as Manson's pal Blackie, per the comic book), and both were charged with not just busting into the dealership but an earlier burglary at Waugh's Market, then at what was 3919 S. Adams St. Taken from the market: $1,200, or $300 less than the amount cited in the comic book.

Were those two crimes one and the same? Possibly, but it's impossible to confirm. Later, Manson would claim to have been involved in other illicit activities in Peoria, even making stops here after 1949. But he made no mention of further arrests here, and I could find no record of such.


continued-

Matt said...

ziggyosterberg said...

Holy shit. Manson is Catholic?


Actually you don't need to be Catholic. There's a sliding scale on that one. We even changed it from Last Rights to Anointing of the Sick to aid in the loophole


St Circumstance said...

hen again, I could find no criminal records regarding the 1949 arrest. However, he was a juvenile, so perhaps those records were hidden. Further, his minor crimes happened long ago, so the records could've been purged, authorities told me.

All I knew was, from Peoria, Manson ended up in a youth home in Indiana, then went on to further crimes before shepherding the Manson Family. As for any criminal wake left in Peoria, I tried to locate any record of a Blackie Neilsonn: no go.

So, with no other place to go in researching the story in 1992, I consulted the primary source:

Charles Manson.

In August 1992, I contacted the California State Prison in Corcoran, Calif., where he'd been spending his life sentence for the Tate-LaBianca murders. To prison officials, I explained the Peoria connection and requested to contact Manson, either by phone or mail. I was told my only option was to send a letter, but was warned that the anti-media Manson almost surely would ignore me.

Wrong. I got a letter a few weeks later, signed by Manson and providing detail about his recollections of Peoria.

"That town's always been good to me," he wrote in messy scrawl. "It's not too big like L.A. or St. Louis, yet big enough to get lost in."

That September, I ran his response. Two more letters from Manson followed - in total, far longer than the first - but they were never shared publicly. At the time - remember, this was a gentler era - the newspaper thought we'd given Manson enough ink.

So, for almost 25 years, they've sat in a folder in my desk.

But that's going to change. We're going to run those letters.

Is there any value in printing those letters, after all this time? I think so. There's always been something of an inexplicable, cryptic draw to Manson, as if he is somehow special among other killers. But when you read the letters, you'll discover that there's no real enigma: he comes off as like any other grubbing con, looking for an angle to play. To be sure, the letters brim with spookiness, but he's less mesmerizing than shady.

Those letters will appear here Sunday. For now, with editing for spelling and clarity, here is the first 1992 letter from Manson regarding his days in Peoria:


Continued-

St Circumstance said...

"I ran out of Boys Town, stole a car in Lincoln, Neb., and rolled to Idaho. I stole a hearse, (a) meat wagon, (and) ran with a kid ... to the Peoria housing projects, where his uncle ran the numbers out of Chicago.

"We took a safe box - 500 pounds - and threw it off the bridge onto the railroad tracks and did a lot of underworld stuff.

"That town's always been good to me. It's not too big like L.A. or St. Louis, yet big enough to get lost in.

" ...; The cops got me for a lot of money two times. I wrecked the hearse and they send me back to Indiana reform school.

"I was never a real kid. I grew up myself, fast, and was raised by the underworld and monks and sisters in the boys' homes.

"Me and Blackie buried a lot of rings, gold watches from a jewelry-store heist. I guess he went back and got it because we got split up.

"Yeah, I did a lot of growing up in that town - fast growing up. They put me in the jail last time I went through there.

"... It may sound foolish, but that town has always been sweet for some reason."


end-

St Circumstance said...

And for what this is worth there is this:

Actress Sharon Tate’s sister, Debra spoke to TMZ about the recent developments that Manson was rushed to a hospital in Bakersfield for a gastrointestinal issue. Debra says Manson was sick decades ago. This morning, it is unclear how serious Manson’s condition is, but Tate says people close to the situation in Bakersfield told her Manson was not seriously ill.

St Circumstance said...

I think she is wrong.... but I have nobody close to the situation telling me otherwise

ColScott said...

Zelda


Yes BUG had a case to win. And he was going to bring Charlie down with it, Did not allow facts to hinder him

Dreath said...

Saint's story: http://www.pjstar.com

St Circumstance said...

Yeah I probably should have added link to entire article. They will be printing more letters shortly.

DebS said...

Saint I think if you weigh Charlie's situation against Susan Atkins final illness what you get is that Susan was terminal and wasn't going to make it no matter if she received care in the prison or a civilian hospital. What ever is wrong with Charlie must be treatable or else they would not have sent him to an outside hospital.

St Circumstance said...

Yeah, maybe your right. That might be the reason for Deb's statement...

Lynn said...

Charlie's hospitalization certainly has brought out a plethora of articles on him and the Manson family. Btw, a trip to Bakersfield can actually be fun if you plan it right....

grimtraveller said...

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

In the end, much of what the killers say is that it wasn't really what the murders were about; there were other things at play. The fact it has been accepted as the motive in the murders over time by the mass media is unfortunate and inaccurate, but it's there because it makes for a fascinating story

Right from the opening day of the trial, Bugliosi was adamant and clear that HS was but one of a number of motives. That it was circumstantial. In his closing argument he was equally clear that HS was not a motive for the women. Their motive was pleasing Charlie. He never disputed that Susan, Pat & Linda had no idea where they were going on Cielo night. And in all the years subsequently, none of the 3 of them have said they knew categorically what was on the menu that night.
LaBianca night is a whole other episode because that carried malice aforethought from the entire party getting into that car. Leslie was certainly out to kill in furtherance of HS. LaBianca night is always going to be the one that sinks Charlie big time in terms of HS. We only have Tex's word about Charlie and HS in relation to Cielo. Although Charlie states that he could well have announced "now is the time for HS" it's not really conclusive although two of the party recall it too.
Apart from Tex, not one of the Cielo lot ever said that kicking off HS was why they went to Cielo.

ColScott said...

Do you know how tiring it is to address Dreath and Grim and GrumpPahrump and all the other people who don't bother to read the ONLY Official TLB Blog or even this one

That's what happens when one is getting advanced in years, mate.
For the record, I spent a number of months going through every single thread of your site Col. Some of it was fantastic, some of it was 'meh,' some of it was like pulling teeth, some of it was brilliant. All in all, a worthwhile exercise that I don't regret. I have it on speedial in case I need to check things up. It's a great resource and for at least a year, I have been only too pleased to big it up, like I do with CieloDrive.com, Tate-LaBianca homicide research blog, this one and Truth on Tate/LaBianca when it was around.
What was really good about your blog wasn't so much the articles themselves but the discussions that followed. They were worth their weight in whatever. There were some pretty deep characters there and some that, well, made me wonder at times.

St Circumstance said...

Lynn - I have never been. It was a joke quote from a movie :)

St Circumstance said...

And then there was me lol

Panamint Patty said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
starviego said...

" the ONLY Official TLB Blog"

A link perhaps?

bucpaul2812 said...

St Circumstance said...

"...I think that if Charlie passes there should be a gathering of his people. I wonder if Star and Greywolf and Roberts get along with George and Sandy and Lynette? I think I asked George if they were friends but I don't remember for sure, or if he answered. I wonder if Michael Channels, AC and other people who correspond with him network with each other?"

You neglected to mention Catherine Gillies, St. Doesn't she still travel to visit Charlie once a year?

ziggyosterberg said...


Matt said...

Actually you don't need to be Catholic. There's a sliding scale on that one. We even changed it from Last Rights to Anointing of the Sick to aid in the loophole

My father has it on his hospital records that he's Catholic, because he told them that he was because his kids are. Consequently any time he's had a stay at the hospital a priest comes to visit him.

With Manson I wonder if maybe he was baptized by Michael Feeney at some point, or when he went to Boys Town as a kid. I also thought it was weird that he'd been doing all that Catholic & Pope bashing over the years, and then he was talking to a priest and getting last rites.

I think that all of the the Tate-LaBianca victims were Catholic : Frykowski, Folger, Sebring, Tate, Parent, the LaBiancas*.


*not sure about Rosemary

Dreath said...

Starviego

Here you go: http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com

St Circumstance said...

I dont know Bucpaul... good question

St Circumstance said...

Im getting several reports that Charlie has died.... BUT I cannot confirm.

I also just read a second report that says he "Has not been admitted to intensive care"

which is more in line with what Deb is thinking...

Yet... the reports are starting to grow

St Circumstance said...

Internal bleeding and he wasn't taken to ER???

either way- there is alot of bad information out there....

St Circumstance said...

If he has passed...

Marlene is going to have to tell us how the hell she knew so many hours before anyone else???

:)

DebS said...

Ziggy, not that it means much in the overall picture but I have my doubts that William Feeney was a Catholic priest. Maybe he went to the seminary to become a priest at some point but when he had the place on Cole St. in SF he is listed with a wife named Janet and it says he was employed by Varco Inc.

The 1968 Polk's Directory-

https://archive.org/stream/polkssanfrancisc1968rlpo#page/n727/mode/2up

It's just another piece of the puzzle that never fit for me.

ziggyosterberg said...


From personal experience (family member), when you have internal bleeding they can give you a blood transfusion in your hospital bed without taking you to ER.

He probably went to ER at some point for a colonoscopy. Whether that was before or after a blood transfusion, I don't know.

St Circumstance said...

Colon what...

I dont like talking about colon anything...

stay away from my colon please ;)

ziggyosterberg said...


DebS - Thanks for the info.

Michael Channels' MansonsBackporch website is the place where I read that Michael Feeney was a priest.

Here's the Link (it's about 3/4 of the way down the page)

DebS said...

I've seen that, too, Ziggy and there was something to that effect on Partee Friedman's site which is no longer up since he died. Partee was married to William Feeney's sister, Patricia.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

My point, made clearly, was that even if Manson had been convicted of murder, conspiracy, attempted, the going rate back then for what he did was 15 years- if that

Well, that doesn't make sense given that he got death. That was the going rate !

I never stated or implied that BUG knew the motive or motives (may have been multiple)

If we're going to be simultaneously pedantic and semantic, I never said that you did.
Now that we've got that off our chests, when you come out with snappy quips like "He had a responsibility to the TRUTH and did nothing but shit on it" or
"The main obstacle towards getting that story has been the psychotic mental state of BUGliosi. He didn't want us to get the whole true story just his disturbed version of it" then you imply that there is some truth or aspect of the story that he does not want people knowing which makes no sense if he does not know what it is himself.

ziggyosterberg said...

The Columbo episode where Ruth Gordon locked that guy in the safe was one of my favs. Also the Bill Shatner and Johnny Cash one

I have to laugh sometimes at the way some of our tastes coincide and overlap.
That Ruth Gordon one is one of my faves; they must have shown every Columbo on TV here in the last 15 years ~ except that one. I used to look out for it for years. Then I got bored and gave up.
It made me wary of walk in safes and wardrobes.....
I seem to recall a couple of Shatner episodes. They were good and I'd watch them again but he really overacts, kind of like a male Meryl Streep. Mind you, he overacted as Kirk, as TJ Hooker, in Boston legal, even back in the b&w 60s in episodes of "The Fugitive" and "The Twilight Zone."
The Johnny Cash one was good, that was on not long ago. I enjoyed it so much I watched it again on the +1. I hate the song they record in it but it's ever so catchy. That episode has the daftest ending line possible ¬> "anyone that can sing like that can't be all bad !"

ziggyosterberg said...


Deb - I thought that you'd probably seen it already. I did check out Partee's site a few years ago, IIRC, I had to use internetarchive. I was curious about the connection between Manson & Feeney, I was guessing/thinking maybe it had something to do with Mary Brunner (Wisconsin)? And Partee's wife raising Elf, was something that I wondered about too.

I'm just curious if you have any info regarding Ruth Ann and Dean Moorehouse. I've read that she was adopted, and Manson said that she was Native American? I thought it was an oddity that she was born in Toronto, Canada, when the Moorehouse's were from , was it Minnesota?

Is there any accurate info out there on Ruth Ann, or is most of it suspect?

ziggyosterberg said...


Grim - The Shatner one I find funny, because of how hammy and scene-chewing he is in it. He's trying so hard to steal every scene he's in, meanwhile Peter Falk just does his usual Columbo, while looking somewhat amused at Bill's vain efforts.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

I do know he perjured himself in a capital case

Which has what to do with TLB ?
The logic of many of the articles on your site regarding Bugliosi is plain to see but you never demonstrate that he lied regarding TLB even though you state it. Pretty much all you say regarding the evolution of Helter Skelter is demolished by the actual facts and chronology of the information that came in ~ some of it a good 6 weeks before he was even on the case.
In that regard, the fact that we actually now have access to so many documents that previously we could only read about, has been ironically damaging for both yourself and Bugliosi ~ but for different reasons. Even in a piece you do like 30/1/10's "The Manson Fairy Tale" you're not beyond spinning the facts to get the picture that you want. But as I say, we have cold hard documents with which we can look at and say "that is demonstrably untrue."

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Bugliosi had a case to win, and sending a skid like Charlie down the river was an insignificant price to pay to get a clean sweep

I'm not so naive to suppose that people in LE are all such wonderful chaps and chapesses that would never lie or that wouldn't send someone to their death in some instances. I just don't believe in this specific instance it is true. It's not Bugliosi's beautiful, charming, self effacing character that persuades me of this, but rather, the weight of evidence that has amassed on the other side.

Nonymous said...

This is a good post. Yes, we don't know what the motive for the first night was. I think you are right in terms of Leslie. I think she was one of the people who actuallly believed in the Helter Skelter nonsense. The two audio tapes of her talking in November and December on cielodrive.com were so bizarre. She sounded totally detached from reality, babbling about an underground society and other nonsense. As for the others I have no idea what their motives were.

Nonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DebS said...

OpenID ziggyosterberg said...

Deb - I thought that you'd probably seen it already. I did check out Partee's site a few years ago, IIRC, I had to use internetarchive. I was curious about the connection between Manson & Feeney, I was guessing/thinking maybe it had something to do with Mary Brunner (Wisconsin)? And Partee's wife raising Elf, was something that I wondered about too.

I'm just curious if you have any info regarding Ruth Ann and Dean Moorehouse. I've read that she was adopted, and Manson said that she was Native American? I thought it was an oddity that she was born in Toronto, Canada, when the Moorehouse's were from , was it Minnesota?

Is there any accurate info out there on Ruth Ann, or is most of it suspect?

Maybe George can answer the questions about Partee's wife raising Elf, I can only speculate.

As for Ruth Ann, I was curious about the adoption and Native American thing, too. I looked up school photos of Ruth Ann's siblings. She has a strong resemblance to her sister Kathleen, Garrison HS North Dakota class of 1958. That's not very "scientific" but it does make me think that she wasn't adopted. I've never looked in the Indian Rolls to see if there might be a connection. I'll have to dig into the censuses and see what I can find.

Dreath said...

Grim said: "It's not Bugliosi's beautiful, charming, self effacing character that persuades me of this, but rather, the weight of evidence that has amassed on the other side."

Grim, I agree with you. I believe this quote from the Col's article explains the skepticism so many had, including me at one point.

"The sheer insanity of it boggles the mind. It seems so patchwork and stitched together. It seems so drugged out. It seems so obviously the work of someone who needs psychiatric help."

But I think it is also the point- it is insane. It is a patchwork. It is drugged out and it is the philosophy of someone who needed psychiatric help. Manson borrowed from this and that- Scientology, The Process Church, etc. etc. Doped everyone up on acid and likely believed his own schtick more and more as the rest believed it.

MR. PART: Well, how were you going to start the this revolution?
MISS VAN HOUTEN: By killing.
MR. PART: Could you explain that?
MISS VAN HOUTEN: By doing a murder that had no sense behind it, and by putting words that would make people scared.
Because the more fearful the people get, the more frantic it will get, and the faster it will happen.

They made this up to cover up the drug war gone bad? Where on earth did she get this idea? Watson? She made it up? Or the guy who wanted to tell reporters about the coming Armageddon?

Its December 69. She doesn't even know what Bugliosi is going to argue. He doesn't know.

ziggyosterberg said...


For what it's worth, I think the big sticking point to Helter Skelter ever being accepted as the main motive is not the question of whether it was Tex and the skanks motive, but rather was it Charles Manson's motive? Until there's something that elucidates or confirms Helter Skelter as Manson's primary motive there will always be doubt. And Manson has always denied Helter Skelter as being the motive.

Bugliosi, of all people, said this in the 2013 Rolling Stone interview :


"But did Manson himself believe all this ridiculous, preposterous stuff about all of them living in a bottomless pit in the desert while a worldwide war went on outside? I think, without knowing, that he did not."

ziggyosterberg said...


Thank you, Deb. :-)

Dreath said...

Ziggy,

How about this:

Returning to the familiar theme of Helter Skelter, I asked him when he thought the black man was going to take over.
“I may have put a clog in them,” he replied. “You mean the trial alerted whitey?” His reply was a simple, and sad, “Yeah.”

or this....

Manson: "If I were my own attorney I could explain. You've heard of Armageddon [the Bible's prophecy of the last, decisive battle between good and evil before the Day of Judgment]. I see it coming, and all I want to do is get out of the way, but they're trying to stick an antichrist label on me."


Dreath said...

I could add- and since Charlie never lies- what Armageddon did he see coming? The one he preached about?

Or the Cubs winning the World Series in 2016?

ziggyosterberg said...


How did you dig up those quotes so quick? lol

Those are good quotes, but why did Bugliosi say that he didn't think that Manson himself believed in the above?

Lynn said...

Most people think of Bakersfield as a joke. We actually went there on a planned trip...everyone kept shaking their heads and saying "you really aren't here to visit family?"...they were incredulous that we picked it as our vacation destination....but my fave place is the Salton Sea, so yeah, I like things off the beaten path

ziggyosterberg said...


Lynn said...

"but my fave place is the Salton Sea"


I'd bet anything that St C mentions the Val Kilmer movie of the same name in his response.

Lynn said...

Speaking of Star, one of the more interesting articles from the past 24 hours: http://m.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11777685

Dreath said...

Ziggy,

I think its the underground world stuff- LVH bought it and the DA motion on the Tex Tapes seems to allude to it but my impression is they all sort of back away from the underground world idea- there was Never-Never-Land.

Quotes: To be honest- a post I was writing and abandoned on the motive that sits on my desktop in a folder.

ziggyosterberg said...


Dreath - To be honest, I had the Bugliosi quote in a wordpad document from a post that I abandoned too. Sometimes I write stuff and never post it, usually for different reasons than you I'm sure. I never post those ones because they're either too alcohol induced or too insulting to Grim. ;-)

ziggyosterberg said...


Lynn said...

Speaking of Star, one of the more interesting articles from the past 24 hours: http://m.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11777685


Boy, they were really playing up race in that article. Even mentioning the disproven notion that Manson's father may have been black.

Also : "Susan Atkins, who stabbed pregnant actress Sharon Tate through the stomach and tasted her blood"

WTF?

Dreath said...

Ziggy said:

"Sometimes I write stuff and never post it, usually for different reasons than you I'm sure. I never post those ones because they're either too alcohol induced or too insulting to Grim. ;-)"

Ah.....That's why I didn't finish the post on this.

Dreath said...

Oh wait.....the first part there...not the From part ;-)

Dreath said...

From= "Grim"

ziggyosterberg said...


Dreath - Got it. ;-)

Speaking of "From", I was curious about what you thought about what Tex said about the Lotsapoppa drug burn/shooting at his recent parole hearing. I mentioned it to "From", and he kind of dismissed it saying that Tex probably doesn't remember anything about that night (?). Which was weird, because I thought that he was a Helter Skelter guy, and Tex saying that the other guys involved in the drug deal were black, adds fuel to the Helter Skelter fire (Manson's paranoia about the Black Panthers or black people/ arming the ranch / wanting to start a race war/ fleeing to the desert, etc.).

Tex at his 2016 parole hearing :


INMATE WATSON: Okay. Well, there was -- there was a drug deal that went on between Rosina and I and some black guys that to where 27 hundred dollars were taken in kind of a drug sting type thing. And since I was involved with Rosina and the drug deal and everything and it went bad and Manson went into town and he ended up shooting one of the black guys and so he was portraying that as like he was cleaning up my business. And so when he came to me he said that, you know, I cleaned up that up for you and therefore, you got to take care of this for me.

ziggyosterberg said...


For anyone interested :

Link to Tex Watson's 2016 Parole Hearing Transcript at Cielo Drive.com



Lynn said...

Where's the like button?

Lynn said...

Thank you

orwhut said...

Deb,
If you find out more about Ruth Ann's heritage please share it with us. I've been fascinated since hearing Charlie make the remark about her being Native American.

Dreath said...

Ziggy,

I think the end of that quote is telling- very 'jailhouse'. And if he sold them on his crap I think that was part. This is the 'I did this for you- you owe me'. I'm not sure any of them, sober, away from Manson would have killed anyone- errr.....except maybe Atkins: "We're going to kill some pigs!" But ironically she killed no one.

I think the Crowe fiasco certainly was a big deal and I think what was going on in LA- the Panther deaths, Manson's prison 'Black Muslim' exposure etc. all contributed. Remember he's in a prison where all of a sudden like a bolt of lightning the prison hierarchy flips: the blacks become very vocal, very militant and very much the Armageddon of the Nation of Islam- blacks will rise up and murder whites. Add acid.

I also think his drug paranoia was real- to him 'they' were renting horses. And I think that sped up the program. After all the Family thought Manson shot and killed a Panther- a black muslim.

Do I think Watson did it for HS? Yup- despite what is portrayed here by some a DA is not likely to 'lie' to a court - 'bend' the truth'- you bet, 'twist a fact'- you bet. Look at the defense in the OJ trial- we lawyers spin the truth- there, indeed was a racist cop and there, indeed was a bloody glove- all 'we' do is offer an explanation for why the glove is behind the house based upon the facts.

The state's answer to the motion on the Tex tapes by LVH's lawyer allegedly says- 'Judge, don't bother listening to the tapes because it is Watson talking about hidden cities under the desert and offensive racial theories about a race war'.

I want those tapes.....but if so: what is he talking about to his lawyer in November 1969? Bugliosi didn't even have Atkins, let alone Kasabian in November '69.

To me that is a crucial piece- what the murderers said 'before' they heard Bugliosi's story- if they are saying it- he didn't make it up.

penny lane said...

Can i ask ..where does " charlie never lies"...come from Dreath ? Ive had read that numerous times..are people being sarcastic or do people actually think he really doesnt lie?

Dreath said...

Penny lane,

Short answer: I don't know.

I have had several 'pro'- Manson sorts tell me or respond to me saying 'Charlie never lies'.

Longer answer: I can say in the out-take video of the Diane Sawyer interview- found somewhere here- sorry no link- she offers 'If you could say anything to the women what would you say?' His initial response is 'can I go to the bathroom?' but when the authorities say 'no' he answers 'Ask them if I ever lied to them.' So it has an origin.

Perhaps Mr. Stimson or someone else can answer you.

Dreath said...

or maybe here:

“In the penitentiary you learn this: don’t lie. Don’t lie, man. If someone catches you in a lie you leave yourself open to get snuffed. And all my life I lived in that eye of: tell the truth. Pay your debts. Don’t get involved in other people’s business. Do your number, do your time. And you learn to stand on your own. So, I am walking and standing on my own. People see me standing on my own and not too many people in your world can do that. And I don’t realize that at that particular time. I don’t realize how weak and mindless you people are.”

or here

“I know what I would say now and I don’t lie, so I know I what I would say then. And I certainly wouldn’t tell nobody to go in and do nothing to anybody that I wouldn’t want done to me.”

grimtraveller said...

penny lane said...

where does " charlie never lies"...come from ? Ive had read that numerous times..are people being sarcastic or do people actually think he really doesn't lie?

Wherever it comes from, it's not true. Case in point, on the witness stand during his trial he stated "had you not arrested Robert Beausoleil for something he did not do..." when he knew absolutely that that Robert Beausoleil had done that "something." That's not word games or mystical riff raff ruckus. That's lies. He lied to George in his book. He says that Gary Hinman, rather than wanting to go to the hospital to get his face seen to, rather than have medical attention on his Charlie inflicted wound that the ME later wrote up as possibly fatal {ie if not dealt with, you could die}, decided that he was off to Spahn to kill Charlie. Then Bobby said, look, here's the knife, take my life instead. And it was only because Hinman refused and was adamant that he was going to kill Charlie that Bobby stabbed him. In my opinion, he's lying. Bobby could back up that story. Never has. Contradicts it in fact.
Linda Kasabian made a poignant observation on one of Charlie's games when she said he could take the truth and make a lie out of it.

ziggyosterberg said...

I was curious about what you thought about what Tex said about the Lotsapoppa drug burn/shooting at his recent parole hearing. I mentioned it to "From", and he kind of dismissed it saying that Tex probably doesn't remember anything about that night (?)

I would say I doubted it and that there were alternative readings. In his first book, when describing the incident, he speaks of "Charlie whipped out the pistol, pointed it at the towering black man and pulled the trigger. Nothing happened but a click. Charlie tried again. Still just a click. Big Crow's white sidekicks started to snicker." In the Emmons book, "Charlie" describes two white guys in the apartment guarding Rosina when he and TJ arrived. When Crowe testified during the penalty phase, he said that his friends were white. Now suddenly 47 years later, Tex says they were Black and in the same breath almost, says TJ got the money. About the only thing that can't be doubted is what many of us suspected anyway ~ he confirms Rosina and Luella are one and the same.

Which was weird, because I thought that he was a Helter Skelter guy, and Tex saying that the other guys involved in the drug deal were black, adds fuel to the Helter Skelter fire

One of the reasons I'm a HS guy is because in my travels, as a Christian, as a Black guy, as someone from a Nigerian background and someone who did the drug trail for a number of years, I have encountered tons of people who genuinely believe and live by things that make HS seem quite sedate in comparison. Believing some of the stuff I do as a Christian, some could easily make such an argument about me. I'm equally comfortable with rational and seemingly irrational thought. I believe in malevolent spiritual influences and I believe in human responsibility. I'm at home with paradoxes and I can see quite easily how certain contradictions are gotten around and sold as being nothing unusual. I have no problem understanding drug fueled transcendency and how it can seem so real. So when people scoff at the Family and what they believed, I don't.

Matt said...

Doris Tate once said in an interview that "Manson speaks in riddles but rarely lies.". I believe that's where it comes from. I'm too lazy to find it but if someone else remembers where it is please let me know.


grimtraveller said...

ziggyosterberg said...

the big sticking point to Helter Skelter ever being accepted as the main motive is not the question of whether it was Tex and the skanks motive, but rather was it Charles Manson's motive?

It may not have been the main motive at all. But I believe kicking off HS was part of the equation. Kill a few birds with one stone.
Charlie freely admits to Diane Sawyer that he told the women to write something witchy. On its own, that probably doesn't mean much. Put together with a whole series of other things, it raises sufficient questions.

Until there's something that elucidates or confirms Helter Skelter as Manson's primary motive there will always be doubt

Then there must always be doubt. The only things that can offer any primacy as to whether or not Charles Manson conspired to cause these deaths in an attempt to kick off the events that would bring America as was known then to a close are things that too many people refuse to accept like the words of the killers, other dodgy witnesses, less than stellar LE....

And Manson has always denied Helter Skelter as being the motive

Well of course. To admit that would be to admit to being guilty of conspiracy and murder. Come to think of it, Charlie has always denied having anything to do with any actual motive. He always says he broke no law, even though in George's book, George clearly has Charlie directing traffic at least in terms of who was going to get Bobby out of jail. But Charlie doesn't even cop to being responsible for that.

but why did Bugliosi say that he didn't think that Manson himself believed in the above?

He was saying that as early as 1976. But it was always framed within questions and doubt {"I think, without knowing..."}.
In his trial, Charlie said "there's been a lot of talk about a bottomless pit. I found a hole in the desert that goes down to a river that runs north underground, and I call it a bottomless pit, because where could a river be going north underground? You could even put a boat on it. So I covered it up and I hid it and I called it "the Devil's Hole" and we all laugh and we joke about it. You could call it a Family joke about the bottomless pit. How many people could you hide down in this hole?"
I think Bugliosi still had problems actually believing that anyone could believe such a thing, same way he had problems believing that Family members actually thought Charlie was Christ.

grimtraveller said...

Matt said...

Doris Tate once said in an interview that "Manson speaks in riddles but rarely lies."

I'd love to know how she knew this !
Doris' schtick was always with those that actually committed murder rather than anyone that supposedly planned it. Which is understandable. Who picked up the ire of the American relatives of the 9/11 victims more, the planners or the actual hijackers ?

ColScott said...

He also made up a motive and sold it to a jury

The facts don't support that. There was emerging information pointing in a HS direction before Bugliosi was even on the case. It may not always have been called HS but its puzzle pieces were coming together, from a variety of sources, some of whom weren't even Family members like Al Springer, Virginia Graham and Ronnie Howard, people who didn't know what was what yet picked up on the HS~ness of what they'd been told by Family members. Brooks Poston, long before any arrests and before he had a clue of the Family's involvement in murder was speaking of HS. Atkins clearly connected HS with the murders in talking to Graham and Howard {"now HS could begin..}. Danny DeCarlo and Al Springer, in particular the latter, had put enough together to link the murders and the fact that Charlie wanted to rule the world. And Pat. Pat could have written just "Death to pigs" and "Rise" and probably any other phrase in the universe. She chose "Healter Skelter." The one calling card that said "Charlie Manson" as few other things could.
Bugliosi looked for a motive. He didn't need one but in common with the human race he wanted to know why. Just like you, Col. And what kept coming to him ? Charles Manson. And HS. They looked hard at drugs. They looked at a possible hit. They even looked into Black power revolutionaries. They looked and all that emerged was what did emerge. But he would have dumped it like a shot if something else had shown up in the evidence.
The copycat didn't emerge. By rights, it should have. Leslie the Bobby girl, by the end of '69 had already been implicated and wasn't denying it. Susan who spent the rest of her life after 1970 saying it was so, back in '69 was confessing and neither had anything to lose by saying it was the copycat ~ if it were so. Yet what did they do ? They implicate Charlie and speak about HS.
Bugliosi didn't even want Atkins yet she could give him Charlie if all he wanted was Manson.
The jury were never given anything to counteract HS, anti establishment vibes and possible revenge. In fact the way the defendants went on, they rather confirmed it. Try to attack a judge when you're on trial for murder and you're not exactly convincing strangers of your innocence.

St Circumstance said...

I cant get anything new at all....

St Circumstance said...

I have to speculate that if he had passed yesterday- we would know by now???

so maybe those reports were false...

Mr. Humphrat said...

Penny et al, I'm pretty sure I've seen Sandra and Squeaky say Charlie never lies in an interview. And George Stimson, in his book, says something like he tends not to lie. CM probably repeated it so many times it became truth for people, and they must have also seen him talk and act in ways that convinced them it was true. He seemed/seems like the real deal to some people, but, as Grim and others show, there are many examples of him lying his ass off. I can think of many lies he tells.
And when he doesn't want to lie or knows it won't work he switches to the "riddles."
It is surprising to me Doris Tate said it too.

St Circumstance said...

I think thats the point..

When Charlie gives an answer in an interview- he is actually kind of predictable in a sense:

He says a few things that are reasonable and coherent, but when pressed, or put in a position to say something uncomfortable, he gets defensive, evasive, or simply says outright nonsense purposely.

He usually doesn't directly lie in his responses to questions in the context of interviews about the case. Doesn't mean he doesn't lie in other ways, or isn't deceitful in his direct interactions with people in other aspects of his life...

But I think Doris was talking more about his on the record responses she had seen or heard...

St Circumstance said...

by the way- speaking of Doris Tate lol

if you have a spare 4 minutes and change and want to watch a classic Video of Dorris Ripping Tex to his face watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q6daYTQceU

Good for you Doris!!

DebS said...

“Though I’m grateful for Vincent Bugliosi’s helter-skelter motive and the convictions it brought, I don’t buy into it for a second. There’s something more, some deeper motive for the killings. Even though Manson talks in riddles, he seldom lies. So I watch and wait for that morsel of truth that might slip from his lips, revealing the true motive.”


- Doris Tate, mother of Sharon Tate (Source: Restless Souls)

I found this at-

http://www.mansondirect.com/others.html

Matt said...

Yes Deb, that's the quote. I'll find the video one way or another.


starviego said...

From GrimTraveller: "They even looked into Black power revolutionaries."

They did? I have never seen any evidence of that.

St Circumstance said...

lol I have that book and knew I heard it somewhere too.. I watched old Doris interviews all morning trying to discover the source lol

Deb beat me to it :) much better researcher... but I am more full of shit :)


I really believe what I said earlier. She was basing that statement on things Charlie said in his interviews after the crime more than his general nature.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

From GrimTraveller: "They even looked into Black power revolutionaries."

They did? I have never seen any evidence of that


Have a read of the 2nd Tate progress report and keep going down the page until you see the name "Kate Saxton" then have a good look at the info that follows.

St Circumstance said...

by the way- speaking of Doris Tate

Going totally left field and theoretical, I suspect that Doris Tate felt guilty for pushing her daughter into acting and may have been overcompensating once she became serious about opposing parole.

Dreath said...

I believe this quote from the Col's article explains the skepticism so many had, including me at one point.

"The sheer insanity of it boggles the mind. It seems so patchwork and stitched together. It seems so drugged out. It seems so obviously the work of someone who needs psychiatric help."

But I think it is also the point- it is insane. It is a patchwork. It is drugged out and it is the philosophy of someone who needed psychiatric help


If you take out the notion that the Family could kick start the revolution with murder, then it's really not any more unique or insane than some of what is fully believed by both mainstream and esoteric religions. Or by many cultural groupings both in the West and 3rd world. Or by people who have transcended the straight and normal through tripping. Lots of people believed in variations of HS. For example, the Black Muslims. Psychedelic drugs caused tons of people to believe all manner of stuff. Dylan was full of contempt of the way people thought they were birds and fire hydrants once they'd tripped.
However insane HS seems, it was a product of its time and place and in a period when rejection of previously accepted certainties and norms was the order of the day. HS was a psychedelic vision played out in the mind of a psychedelicatessen and given further support in the way it was taken up by others. It's the Family's transatlantic cousin of "Yellow Submarine," that notion of "we will take the old and refashion it our way." The fact that it could be discussed rationally with Gregg Jacobson and the fact that Charlie could talk about aspects of it {the biblical aspects of it !} to Rolling Stone or even Bugliosi speak volumes.

Nonymous said...

Helter Skelter was a thing that a lot of the group was actually into

Peer pressure played its part too, the way it can in any group. If the highly esteemed ones catch the vision, those further down the food chain may start to feel that they are odd because they can't see it. So they might start 'seeing' it even stronger than the others or giving themselves to it more. One mustn't forget that pleasing Charlie was not something the Family was ashamed of or embarrassed about. For them it was a beautiful and selfless thing, at least in principle.

St Circumstance said...

This is all I can find from yesterday as far as if he is is alive or not?



Roberts, 48, traveled to Bakersfield from his home in Los Angeles on Thursday to see Manson who is being treated at the city's Mercy Hospital.

Hospital officials refused him entry because he hadn't submitted the appropriate paperwork, but he managed to send a message to Manson, and is hoping to speak with him in the coming days.

Speaking exclusively to DailyMail.com after the failed visit, he said: 'The hospital wouldn't let me in so I spoke to an official at the California Department of Corrections and they promised to pass on a message to him on my behalf.

'They told me my father is hanging in there and still in custody, but wouldn't share any more.'

grimtraveller said...

Dreath said...

From= "Grim"

From=Me
Fromme !

ColScott said...

BUG did not care about the truth just about getting Charlie. He already had the actual killers cold

Maybe it's the American way. All the killers died on 9/11 but Bin Laden was still pursued for 10 years and killed.
More to the point, it was California law that dictated that Manson be looked at, once the investigation started. He was on the LaBianca suspect list a full month before Bugliosi was assigned the case.
People forget Steve Zabriske.
He's the guy that walked into a cop shop in Oregon at the start of November {2 weeks before Bugliosi is on the case} and told the cops that a "Charlie" and a "Clem" had done the TLB murders. He says he got the info from Ed Bailey and Vern Plumlee. Why would Vern tell him that ? Could it possibly have been true ?
He'd never even met them or the Family but Zabriske was certainly on the ball about those two even if he got the wrong murder for Clem.

Zelda Formaldehyde said...

Resting with no defense witnesses called was an open invitation to summarily put them all away, Charlie included. For the jury, it was an easy out

Not according to William Zamora who was on the jury.
Yet for all that, Irving Kanarek once apparently said {I can't verify it because I saw it in a random page online in some book that I never bothered to check the title, so take it with a pinch of salt} that the reason he didn't present a defence was because he did not think the prosecution had proved its case. Even Bugliosi says that he was worried about which way the verdict cold go.

In Helter Skelter, he tells Melcher (in order to get him to testify for him) that Charlie was not looking for him- that he knew he and Candy had moved away. There is substantial evidence that this is false. But Bug wants the reader- and presumably Melcher- to think otherwise

And what is this substantial evidence ? Virtually every single item on Melcher that I've ever read {except when it is some hack who doesn't check their facts and does that lazy media write up bit} including the things said by the killers, Charlie himself and William Zamora are more than clear that it was well known that Melcher wasn't at Cielo anymore. Zamora wrote in his book how Charlie nicked the telescope from his new place {the way Jacobson says Charlie related the incident is so funny}, an incident George Stimson wrote up 40 years later as Charlie "fucking with" Melcher.
Your monomania with Bugliosi and your unwillingness to try to embrace a psychedelic mindset, if only to understand where these guys were coming from, keep you chasing your tail in an endless spiral from which you may never break free.

St Circumstance said...

Home Charles Manson Too Weak For Potentially Life Saving Surgery
Charles Manson Too Risky for Surgery
1/6/2017 11:24 AM PST
EXCLUSIVE

0103_charles_manson_twitter

Charles Manson was supposed to have surgery Thursday night for intestinal bleeding, but doctors determined he was too weak and the procedure too risky ... TMZ has learned.

Sources familiar with the situation tell us ... Manson was taken from Corcoran State Prison to a Bakersfield hospital a few days ago because of a lesion in his intestines that was causing significant bleeding.

We're told doctors wanted to perform surgery shortly after the 82-year-old arrived at the hospital but he refused.

Our sources say Thursday Manson had a change of heart and agreed to the surgery, but during pre-op late yesterday doctors determined he needed to go under the knife ... but felt it was life-threatening because his condition was too weak.

Manson remains at the hospital and doctors are trying to figure out their next move.

ziggyosterberg said...


St Circumstance said...

I have to speculate that if he had passed yesterday- we would know by now???

so maybe those reports were false...


I'm doubting the accuracy of a lot of the info that we've gotten so far. I don't think that the hospital or corrections would they even give out any info about Manson, for security reasons. So unless this info is coming from someone receiving info from the medical staff working on Manson, it's pretty suspect.

If Manson was really sick and they thought that he was dying, wouldn't they put him on a morphine drip or something? Morphine drips don't usually take this long.

ziggyosterberg said...


St Circumstance said...

This is all I can find from yesterday as far as if he is is alive or not?



Roberts, 48, traveled to Bakersfield from his home in Los Angeles on Thursday to see Manson who is being treated at the city's Mercy Hospital.

Hospital officials refused him entry because he hadn't submitted the appropriate paperwork, but he managed to send a message to Manson, and is hoping to speak with him in the coming days.

Speaking exclusively to DailyMail.com after the failed visit, he said: 'The hospital wouldn't let me in so I spoke to an official at the California Department of Corrections and they promised to pass on a message to him on my behalf.

'They told me my father is hanging in there and still in custody, but wouldn't share any more.'




I can only hope that there's a Bakersfield version of Captain McCluskey to straighten that walking freak show out. Where's Sterling Hayden when you need him?


penny lane said...

Thanks all...ask a question about charlie being a BIG FAT LIAR and Im rewarded great answers ...and yes I would love to hear Georges take on how he actually knows charlie is speaking the truth...oh and as bizarre as it sounds I dreamt charlie kicks it on the 11 of this month...who dreams that stuff ??

ziggyosterberg said...


Matt said...

Yes Deb, that's the quote. I'll find the video one way or another.

Not if it was from something like Sally Jesse Raphael or one of those other daytime shows that people forgot even existed, let alone videotaped and uploaded to YouTube.

I was looking for the video source of one of those Doris Tate quotes a while back (maybe even the same one that you're looking for, can't remember), and it was a YUGE waste of time. Consider yourself forewarned.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

Is revenge not as big a motive as an imaginary civil war?

It's a better, more understandable and much safer motive. It's also just as hard to prove. But Bugliosi still went with it too.
Aaron Stovitz was the head guy. He thought HS was something of a crock. He was the lead prosecutor. He believed a major part of the motive was the copycat. Yet he acquiesced to his subordinate. We have funny stories in "5 to die" and "Witness to evil" about his cool, calm, mature demeanour in contrast to the highly strung, impetuous, egotistical nuclear hothead Bugliosi.
Yet he acquiesced to his subordinate.
He was shown to be right to do that, yet the uncomfortable reality remains that he would have been, if not content, then prepared to let Charlie go because he couldn't "see for miles." Bugliosi was the right prosecutor for this case because he was canny enough to be able to take on board what was coming his way, even though it was highly unusual and churn it out on the other side in a way that the common person could get alongside. He's almost the George Martin of the saga.


Matt said...

ziggyosterberg said...

...and it was a YUGE waste of time. Consider yourself forewarned.


I think I know a shortcut :)


ziggyosterberg said...


St Circumstance said...

Home Charles Manson Too Weak For Potentially Life Saving Surgery
Charles Manson Too Risky for Surgery
1/6/2017 11:24 AM PST
EXCLUSIVE

0103_charles_manson_twitter

Charles Manson was supposed to have surgery Thursday night for intestinal bleeding, but doctors determined he was too weak and the procedure too risky ... TMZ has learned..




I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the original source to TMZ of Manson being hospitalized was Matthew Roberts. They did a story on him previous to this, and Matthew has a history of selling his story to tabloids.

I wonder how much money Matthew Roberts is making from selling info on his "Daddy"?


grimtraveller said...

penny lane said...

ask a question about charlie being a BIG FAT LIAR and I'm rewarded great answers

Here's an interesting quote from Bobby Beausoleil at his parole hearing a few months back:
"....you know, Charlie was a liar. I mean, he just lied to everybody. He manipulated people by telling different people different stories. And you know, the story that he told the other people would have been a story to one set of person, would have been a different story than he told to someone else."

I guess Bobby has his reasons for saying that....

grimtraveller said...

Irving Kanarek once apparently said......{I can't verify it because I saw it in a random page online in some book that I never bothered to check the title, so take it with a pinch of salt}

Interesting little piece. He said it in 1996.
But he's demonstrably wrong because at the end of the day it was the jury that put Charlie, Pat, Susan and Leslie away. When people keep making the case about pre~trial publicity, Nixon and even the infamous celebrity hit list, they seem to do so in ignorance that it has to be shown that the members of the jury are the ones that were swayed by all of that. It doesn't matter if the rest of the country were. That jury don't seem to have been fans of the story pre~trial, they were sequestered for 9 months and weren't allowed to watch the news or read papers and therefore had little handle on what was going on outside. And whenever there was trouble, the bus windows were blacked out. They tried hard to look for reasons not to condemn them to death. Even though Zamora believed they deserved it, he welcomed every delay in decision making in the hope that someone would make a compelling argument against it.
It's a huge assumption that the members of the jury were all rabid Nixon Republicans that hung on his every word. The impression William Zamora gives is that was not the case at all. He didn't give a shit what Nixon thought.
But even if he had, who was it that brought to the attention of the jury that Nixon had gaffed in publicly stating that he thought Manson was guilty ?
Was it not Manson himself ?