Monday, February 26, 2018

Was the CIA behind TLB?

Was the CIA behind TLB?

“Though I’m grateful for Vincent Bugliosi’s helter-skelter motive and the convictions it brought, I don’t buy into it for a second.  There’s something more, some deeper motive for the killings.”
- Doris Tate, mother of Sharon Tate, from the book Restless Souls.

I have no direct evidence that someone was controlling Charlie or telling him to start HS. Even if true, I don't know how such a control would be exerted.  On the other hand, there is more than enough circumstantial evidence that strongly suggests that Manson and Family were being 'managed' somehow by higher forces associated with the Government.

--The unusual nature of Charlie's PO in San Francisco
Somehow Charlie was assigned to Dr. Roger Smith, the world's most educated and overqualified parole officer, known for his lenient- to- non-existent supervision, and who apparently never had any other parolee to supervise other than Charlie.  His next job was to manage the "Amphetamine Research Project" run out of the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic.

 Dr. Roger Smith, aka "Jubal"

--The Researchers
The Family was a 'research' subject by the National Institute of Mental Health, via the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic, while up in the Haight, at Spahn, and at Barker, whose researchers, while following the Family around, apparently didn't notice all the crimes being committed by the group.  And who were apparently never of interest to the investigators or Bugliosi, as there is no known interview of them.

--A 'Hands-off' policy on Charlie and Family before TLB

A poster on another forum neatly encapsulated the evidence:
poster LynyrdSkynyrdBand   April 5, 2013 seems perplexing that the Family could continue to function with so many of the group already known to, and wanted by, various branches of authorities.
The 16 August raid would net: Lutesinger - wanted for questioning regarding a recent murder. Grogan - an escapee from a local mental institution placed there after being charged with exposing himself to children (also with three recent arrests for Grand Theft Auto).
Good(e)- recently freed earlier that week on a charge of fraud. Manson - on federal parole, who had recently been questioned regarding separate assault, rape and murder investigations, and in addition was already on three years parole for his 28 July 1967 conviction for interfering with a police officer... Atkins - who was placed on probation after her 22 June 1968 drug possession (then and at the raid giving the same alias), and after her 30 September 1966 conviction for possessing a concealed weapon, she was also given parole for receiving and concealing stolen property before being extradited back to California to face federal charges of interstate transportation of stolen vehicles. DeCarlo was awaiting the appeal of his 1967 conviction and sentencing to five years for importing 11kg of marijuana across the USA-Mexican border in 1966, as well as an assault charge for his and Manson’s attack on DeCarlo’s wife, and the illegal registration of a fire-arm.

"It's like Manson had God on his side when all these things are going down, or else somebody was watching every move he made, somebody was controlling from behind the scenes. Somebody saw that no parole hold was placed. .. somebody very high up was controlling everything that was going on and was seeing to it that we didn't bust Manson."
   --Preston Guillory, ex-LASO Deputy who participated in the Spahn Ranch raid

One could also add the curious, unexplained failure of the Crowe homicide detectives to quickly implicate Charlie, and the curious, unexplained failure of the Hinman homicide detectives to go to Spahn to investigate.

Manson himself seems to have been aware of his 'special' status when he was released:

Charles Manson Now, by Marlin Marynick
"So, I go outside, and I go over to the music and the Grateful Dead is playing, and they put me on the witness program. Not because I snitched on somebody or betrayed a trust. ...but they've got me on the Federal Witness program. They say, "Leave this man alone, do not put him in jail in any direction whatsoever, he's the devil, and we can't control him, and we can't whip him, we can't beat him." "

"I was on the witness program, the State of California should of never bothered me. They should have stood down off of me. I didn't have anything to do with that, that wasn't my play. .. What happened there wasn't my play, it wasn't in my lane."

If Charlie thought he had immunity, either real or imagined, how might this have influenced Charlie in his decision to commit the life crimes?

--Intelligence operatives around the TLB case

There seem to be a large proportion of intelligence agents/covert operators associated with TLB:

Ed Butler   CIA
Propagated an op-ed piece in August 1969 titled “Did Hate Kill Tate,” in which he eerily presaged public awareness of Charlie's own Helter Skelter philosophy by blaming the deaths on the Black Panthers, even throwing in a reference to the Beatles.  He had previously recorded Lee Harvey Oswald before the JFK assassination to paint him as a Castro sympathizer..

Los Angeles County District Attorney Evelle Younger  ex-FBI, ex-OSS, Air Force Reserve Intel

Los Angeles County Sheriff Peter Pitchess  ex-FBI

Prosecuting Attorney Bugliosi  Army Intel?
(We know he was in the Army, but try to find out what his military occupational specialty was.)

Lt Col Paul Tate  Army Intel
I'm NOT suggesting he was involved, but the fact remains he was an intel guy.

Manson Family Documentarian Laurence Merrick(born Le'ev Lahav)  ex-IDF, Mossad?

Private Investigator Reeve Whitson  CIA?
-Excerpt from Sharon Tate - A Life by Ed Sanders
"Hatami told me he has no memory at all of Manson coming to the front door of Cielo Drive, but that the memory was suggested to him by an investigator named Reeve Whitson, who worked for both Col. Paul Tate and the prosecutor Vince Bugliosi."
The only reference to a Reeve Whitson online is to a CIA operative active in central America in the '80s.

LAPD James Jarrett  ex-Special Forces, CIA
Sinister spook/provacateur hovering around the edges of the TLB case.  May have been the source of the stolen "case of grenades" to be used in an alleged escape attempt by Charlie towards the end of the trial.

--The Role of the FBI in the investigation

There was a small FBI file on Manson, consisting mostly of newspaper clippings, which basically seems to proclaim that the FBI wasn't interested in the case, but there is evidence the Feds were far more involved than they are saying:

  -Statement by Millie McCormack, secretary in the Inyo County District Attorney's Office when Charlie and Family were arrested at Barker:  "Once an F.B.I. agent was showing her how he drew his gun from the holster."

  -Statement of Becky Binion, saying the FBI came into her father's Las Vegas casino to seize a photo of the Family taken there.

  -Statement by Debra Tate that she was interviewed by the FBI.

  -Message In A Shampoo Bottle By Mary Tannen 
"After the killings, the police and the F.B.I. went to see Torrenueva (hairstylist in Sebring's salon)."
Robert Hendrickson:
"I would like to add: It is entirely possible that the Manson Family was infiltrated by the F.B.I.
AND that Helter Skelter was influenced by same. YOU only have do some research into the F.B.I.s dealings with the Black Panthers to understand just how far the F.B.I. would go and MURDER was NOT a stop sign. It might also explain WHY Col Tate's hands were TIED."

--The Motive:  Killing the Counterculture

Cui Bono?
When solving a murder, one of the things investigators asked themselves is 'Cui Bono'-who benefits from this crime?  The only beneficiaries of TLB(other than home alarm companies and gun shops) were those in the establishment who wanted to demonize and neutralize the threat from the counter-culture, which arose as potent reaction to the Vietnam War.  And the CIA, of course, are the "go to" guys when conducting covert psy ops to make it happen.

  OPERATION CHAOS The CIA's War Against the Sixties Counter-Culture
Operation CHAOS... was the code name (CIA cryptonym) for an American domestic espionage project conducted by the Central Intelligence Agency from 1967 to 1974, established by President Johnson and expanded under President Nixon...

And, by all accounts, it worked:
The 1960s, the decade of love, came to an abrubt and bloody end when Charles Manson's 'family' murdered actress Sharon Tate and her friends. ... They were the murders that ended the 1960s, the decade of love, in a bloodbath that shocked the world.
--"The Manson murders sounded the death knell for hippies and all they symbolically represented," Bugliosi told the Observer last week. "They closed an era. The 60s, the decade of love, ended on that night, on 9 August 1969."

INTERVIEWS WITH BOBBY BEAUSOLEIL 1998-9  By Michael Moynihan for Seconds Magazine
Q:  These people had been freaked out about the entire youth culture for years, and aside from maybe a few drug casualties or a few minor incidents, they didn't have anything which they could really trot out in order to show how terrible this all was—and now they did. 
A:  Well, exactly. They were looking for that thing that could be used to hurt the movement, or to put it to bed, to rest—to kill it essentially. They wanted to kill the youth movement, and the Manson cases were ideally suited for that. If any one event can be said to represent the end of the counter-culture movement, it was that event. It was used as a tombstone, in a social context. It marks where the youth movement of the '60s was buried. It's really a tragic thing.

Can the "Helter Skelter," "Drug Burn," or "Copycat" theories of motive explain the curious facts of this case?  No, but the CIA theory can.  That's why I believe in it.


"For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known."
    --Luke 12:2


penny lane said...

Wow just...Wow..absolute ripper post starvy...I read it 3 times...How do u find this stuff ☺'s amazing..thanks !

cielodrivecom said...

Preston was disgruntled and had little to do with Manson and company other than the aug 16th raid.

DebS said...

I normally don't buy into conspiracy theories but the Manson case does leave me wondering about what it is that "the man" doesn't want us to know. This post fits right in with my post about an FOIA request I made to get Susan Atkins FBI file.

Nice job Starviego!

AstroCreep said...

So, now the CIA is to blame?

PS- the CIA didn’t seed the clouds at Woodstock either.

Robert C said...

The CIA is responsible for foreign threats and would likely have little to do with the MF except to the extent there is some foreign connection. The State, County, Municipal & Natural Guard agencies & units would have greater interest followed by the FBI. Then each wing of the military has their own intelligence group but I don't think they are part of this conspiracy.

Each enforcement/intelligence agency has their own turf to defend but sometimes there is cross-over. Also and especially back then they didn't always share information (job security).

Great write up but I didn't see anything compelling me to lean toward this particular right wing conspiracy. Presented are opinions and "ex-" various agency people, also with opinions.

I think it's important to remember that back then communications were a fraction of that today -- no cells, Pc's, 24/7 news. Local law enforcement had their hands full with many things going on -- the MF was just very occasionally monitored while frying bigger fish. The FBI was looking for serious threats, not maybe's or could be's.

The 'counter-culture' was really insignificant compared to the war, poverty, the commies and the economy. I know the FBI & Co. were far more interested in racial tensions and the Panthers (and clearly murdered at least one of their leaders).

I feel the domestic agencies "dabbled" in the youth cultures of that time primarily to monitor what was going on and even occasionally meddling but not really trying to change or sabotage anything. But it is a conspiracy that should be placed in the conspiracy bag with possibilities regardless of probabilities while waiting for further (and more solid) proof.

Again, thanks for the write-up Starviego.

ColScott said...

No the CIA was not behind it.


prefeteria said...

If Infowars claims Manson was an MK Ultra operative, then it be true?

Chanel said...

It seems crazy to think that the CIA would be involved but...

In Canada in the late 80/90's CSIS placed agent Grant Bristow in with the local white power groups. At that time those groups were not very organized and funded, but after Grant's arrival there was organization and funding. White power grew until CSIS' scheme was exposed.

So never put it past the government.

Logan said...

Robert C said..."The 'counter-culture' was really insignificant compared to the war, poverty, the commies and the economy. I know the FBI & Co. were far more interested in racial tensions and the Panthers (and clearly murdered at least one of their leaders)."

👏👏👏My thoughts exactly

Robert C said...

Chanel said: So never put it past the government.

US agency most likely to do that and other 'ultra' things would be the NSA (National Security Agency).
Super Major Top Secret -- originally tasked with collecting and disseminating information - later developed a covert operations element .... maybe.

starviego said...

Robert C said...
"the FBI & Co. were far more interested in racial tensions and the Panthers"

Plus they were bogged down in the hugely complex “Louie, Louie” investigation of 1964, which stretched FBI resources to the limit:
...the FBI launched a formal investigation in 1964 into the supposedly pornographic lyrics of the song “Louie, Louie.” ... the United States Department of Justice began receiving letters like the one addressed to Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy and dated January 30, 1964. “Who do you turn to when your teen age daughter buys and brings home pornographic or obscene materials being sold…in every City, Village and Record shop in this Nation?” ...

Over the course of the next two years, the FBI gathered many versions of the putative lyrics to Louie Louie. They interviewed the man who wrote the song and officials of the record label that released the Kingsmen’s smash-hit single. They turned the record over to the audio experts in the FBI laboratory, who played and re-played “Louie Louie” at 78 rpm, 45 rpm, 33 1/3 rpm and even slower speeds in an effort to determine whether it was pornographic ...

Hoover played the song over and over, trying to find hidden messages. Like Charlie played the White Album over and over, trying to find hidden messages.


Robert C said...

Starviego said: "Plus they were bogged down in the hugely complex “Louie, Louie” investigation of 1964, which stretched FBI resources to the limit"

Yes, taken as a whole law enforcement and investigation were not ready for the late 60's & early 70's. Cops back then still wore a shirt with tie and pressed trousers with maybe a snub-nosed .38 cal in their holster -- nothing like the comic book paramilitary goons of today with their armor & velcro bling.

I remember the "Louie, Louie" caper ... I was in what was called junior high school and we all snickered, but the song was extremely popular and they would have had a large scale riot had they arrested the Kingsmen so, as I recall, it passed pretty quickly. Also, I don't remember the adults at the time giving it all much notice.

But as General Jack D. Ripper might have said, the FBI needed to be forever both vigilant and observant over communist influences that may attempt to threaten the very essence of our precious bodily fluids !!!

AustinAnn74 said...

Taking anything seriously that comes out of Bobby Beausoleil's mouth is like using a quote from Donald Duck. Interesting post, however....

Mr. Humphrat said...

The end of the sixties didn't bring an end to huge anti-war protests

Manson Mythos said...

Did you even read what Operation Chaos was? It was not about "destroying the counterculture". It was about investigating possible contact and collusion with foreign countries (Soviet Union, Cuba, etc.) or see if they were being used as unwitting dupes. Unless they suspected the Family was being trained for gorilla combat in Cuba, you can rule that one out easily.

starviego said...

There is always the official version, and there is an unofficial version. A lot of CIA dirty dealings are hidden behind such terms as 'espionage' and 'counterintelligence.' Spies do a lot more than spy. 'Wet' operations are a reality.


LtCol Tate had friends in the FBI? Did he work them as an Army Counterintelligence agent?

Patti: "Earlier that morning he'd (PJ) gone to Holy Cross with five of his friends from the FBI to set up a protection perimeter for our arrival. Along with providing protection, their other purpose was to look for suspects."

Manson Mythos said...

It is not a big secret that there was an FBI investigation from the very start of the TLB murders and yes, even before. They were involved in the drug angle of the case.

The real reason Dennis Wilson moved out of his home was because they all knew the feds were onto the drug dealing going on there with Watson, Moorehouse and the others.

Susan Atkins was involved in a drug ring in SF that operated behind a front of being leftist radicals (anyone who has read her first book knows this). Kasabian was busted in a raid.

The fact is, even before a lot of these people met Charlie, they were on the radar of feds and it all had to do with dope.

starviego said...
By the mid-1970’s Senate and House committees launched formal and lengthy inquiries into government intelligence and covert activities. These investigations revealed extensive covert and illegal counterintelligence programs involving the FBI, CIA, U.S. Army intelligence, the White House, the Attorney General, and even local and state law enforcement... (maybe even the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department?)

Is it possible that Counterintelligence specialist LtCol Tate was involved in such activities? And if so, would that be more than coincidence?

Did Paul Tate even have contacts in the CIA? A source I quoted in this thread comes to mind:

-Excerpt from Sharon Tate - A Life by Ed Sanders
"Hatami told me he has no memory at all of Manson coming to the front door of Cielo Drive, but that the memory was suggested to him by an investigator named (possible CIA agent)Reeve Whitson, who worked for both Col. Paul Tate and the prosecutor Vince Bugliosi."


Manson Mythos said...

Col. Tate was Naval Intelligence. His having contacts within the CIA is not unbelievable, but not exactly relevant.

I'm of the opinion that both Col. Tate and Peter J. Folger found out or at least had a good idea of exactly what happened and why the murders happened. It was in fact Col. Tate who was the first person to reveal that Jay Sebring was the "Candy Man to all of Hollywood". I suspect a large part of the animosity between the Tate and Folger Family has to do with Peter J. Folger working to obstruct the investigation as to why they happened while Tate was trying to find out such information.

There is clear evidence that Folger had a word with many of the early suspects, such as Billy Doyle, PRIOR to the Police sat down with them.

GreenWhite said...

I always enjoy your posts, Starviego. Thank you. A wtf moment for me in The Family was when Sanders tells us that Smith and his wife becomes the temporary foster parents for Mary's baby after the Mendocino arrests.

AstroCreep said...

The CIA doesn’t have the number of assets that people believe they have. Most employees aren’t operational, they are analysts. In fact, the smallest segment of the CIA is the operational arm. To think that they would be involved at the Manson Family level is rather Tom Clancy-esq.

I’m sure that the agency did some collecting on the counter culture and as already mentioned, likely with violent activists to see if there were any ties to the KGB- how were they being funded/resourced/etc. I’m sure collecting was done on the major players of the counter culture- psychotropic drug introduction, SDS, Black Panthers, anti war event organizers, etc.

The intelligence community is also very compartmentalized. A naval intelligence officer doesn’t just call his CIA analyst buddy and get dirt on someone. Those programs are special access and one has to be “read on” to the program to even know its existence. Couple that, with communications of the time such as unsecure landline phones and written secret documents carried by hand in diplomatic pouches etc- and you can see how hard it would be for Col. Tate to get any intel, even if he’s “cleared” to the level of classification of the information he was seeking.

Remember too, in 1969, the CIA was consumed with operations in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Thailand. They didn’t have resources to send operational people out to Death Valley to collect on a bunch of dirty hippies.

starviego said...

Manson Mythos said...

:.. there was an FBI investigation from the very start of the TLB murders and yes, even before. They were involved in the drug angle of the case."

The FBI doesn't do drug investigations They leave that to the DEA.

"...Susan Atkins was involved in a drug ring in SF that operated behind a front of being leftist radicals..."

Source? I don't find that in any of her books.

"Col. Tate was Naval Intelligence."

Huh? He was in the Army.

"..a large part of the animosity between the Tate and Folger Family.."

What animosity?

David said...

I enjoyed reading this post and the debate that follows. That said conspiracy theories like this always remind of the Underwear Gnomes. There seems to be a chain of evidence missing between former intel geek and the answer to the question posed in the title.

You can get a glimmer of the FBI’s interest in the Manson-Hinman/Shea trial: guns.

Robert C said...

Starviego said: "The FBI doesn't do drug investigations They leave that to the DEA."

DEA was formed in 1973 --

Starviego responded: [MM said: "Col. Tate was Naval Intelligence."] -- "Huh? He was in the Army."

If Tate was in the Navy he'd be a Captain ? (Navy Captain = Army Colonel).

Monica said...

Interesting. I have been walking around my city, pondering this motive and post for a few days. Not sure I'm sold thay it happened to end flower power but I am amazed at all the research. What makes you think they chose Charlie Manson? The CIA had no idea he'd be able to acquire a following.

Monica said...

I meant at the time the CIA was plotting it all out...why Charlie?

starviego said...

I can only speculate as to why they used Charlie. It's possible they recognized his special talents while he was in prison. One thing is certain--they got the right man for the job (if you believe in my theory).

Some people who study mind control or Mk/Ultra claim that at some point the CIA stopped direct research into this area and began to outsource their efforts to the 'cults.' And certainly you can call the Family a cult.

starviego said...

One is given the impression that Charlie's traveling around on the bus with the Family was kind of an ad hoc thing, but it may instead have been planned back when Charlie was in prison.

Patricia Krenwinkel 2016 Parole Hearing Transcript
INMATE KRENWINKEL: Billy Green -- he had done time with Manson in TI... ... but prior to even leaving with Manson, I talked to Billy Green and he had said.. Manson and I, we used to plan on getting a bus and just traveling the United States with some gals and have a good time. ..

I thought Charlie wanted to pursue a musical career when he got out? This kind of implies Charlie had already made plans to put together a 'family' before he got out of the Can. What else did he have planned?

Monica said...

IF your theory is correct, no wonder Charlie was pissed for the last 49 years. He sure got the raw end of the deal with the CIA.

starviego said...

prefeteria said...
"If Infowars claims Manson was an MK Ultra operative, then it be true?"

Here is what Jones had to say about Manson on a recent program:
2:00 "Manson was a part of a CIA mind control program ... he was a big man for the CIA who was delivering the drugs into the circles to begin the mind control operations."

4:20 " ...Charles Manson was inducted into a higher level DARPA(Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) mind control program and inserted into the highest level of rock and roll, movies... he knew all the major folk .... and was delivering large amounts of pure, weapons-grade LSD to campuses all over California. Then the wind-up toy either went off the rails or was ordered to carry out the murders ... but he was CIA, 100%.

7:40 "Charles Manson was jealous of the cult above him... he was getting kicked out of that cult. They weren't being nice to him anymore, and so what did he do, he went and killed their high priestess .. their goddess, who they thought was the number one woman in the Hollywood cult of Roman Polanski and others...."


starship said...

Cui Bono. I've been preaching that for years and have tried to apply it directly to the drug burn theory. If Voytek was trying to set himself up to be the biggest supplier of MDA in SoCal, then who would he have been threatening? After August 1969 who became the biggest supplier of MDA in SoCal? Who?

starship said...

Some more random thoughts: great post and great comments.

We must stop with info wars and Restless Souls however.

Cops are lazy, just like everyone else. One or two of them would have had to act like they do on tv, where somebody sees one thing which leads to another and then wants to make all of the connections. Even today with all the new tech the cops miss alot as proven by recent events.

My hyperbole for the day: The Tate-LaBianca murders may well indeed have ended the Youth Movement on a large scale here in the USA. But the 60s didn't truly end until April 30, 1975.

Panamint Patty said...

Starship Patty has always believed that this is the key.