Monday, March 11, 2013

More From Randy Starr's Wife

First part of the story is here:
http://www.eviliz.com/2013/03/an-interview-with-randy-starrs-wife.html

Windy and Shorty had been friends for years.  The people who were regulars at the ranch were like family and counted on each other.  Some, like Shorty came to work at the ranch between other jobs.  Windy remembers Shorty being 6' 4" and about 210 pounds, he had a dark brown beard and wild blue eyes.  She said, he claimed he was called Shorty because of a morning that he had to "goose his self and rope his tool to take a morning leak"!  They worked hard on the ranch and they played hard, too.

Shorty came from a working family and grew up in Medford Massachusetts .  His father John was a truck driver for a food distribution company.  Shorty's mother was French Canadian.  In 1940 there were five boys with Shorty being the middle son, he had two older brothers and two younger brothers.

And now we'll pick up where we left off last week.

Word had gotten up to Spahn that Windy had been beat up and Shorty, out of concern for Windy, went over to her house to check up on her.  He took one look at her and became enraged.  Windy explained to Shorty about the police stop, that her truck was seen at one robbery felt to be connected to other robberies, then how Manson had come over and demanded the keys to her truck and when she wouldn't comply proceeded to beat her up.  She said that Manson was a dirty fighter, too, kicking her while she lay on the floor.  Shorty turned on his heels and immediately headed towards Bill Vance's house screaming as he got close, "Come out of there, you yellow bastard."  Little Harvey was the first one out of the house and tried to calm Shorty down, he was swatted away by Shorty for his troubles.  Next Bill Vance came to the doorway and out of the house, Shorty coldcocked him, no questions asked, leaving him lie in the yard.  Bill and Shorty had once been friends having worked together at Spahn before Bill thought he would give up being a cowboy to become a truck driver.  The friendship ended that day.

By this time Manson had armed himself with a knife and also came out of the house.  He was talking tough but this time Manson's slick verbal patter did not do him any good.  Shorty proceeded  to beat him to a pulp from the front of the house all the way out to the middle of the street where he left him on the center line unspeaking and not moving.

Windy firmly believes that the beating Manson took that day from Shorty is the reason why he was killed. She also believes that is why so many of the guys attacked him en masse.  Manson was thoroughly humiliated that day.





46 comments:

AustinAnn74 said...

Manson is a p*ssy!!

Suze said...

What I wouldn't have given to see that ass-beating. Explains why Vance was placed at the scene of Shea's murder.

AustinAnn74 said...

Wait a minute! If Shorty beat the tar out of Manson, then why would Shorty have gotten into a car with Tex, Bruce, and Clem on the day they killed him? I don't think he would of. I think Ruby Pearl saw them surrounding Shorty, and I think Barbara Hoyt really did hear his screams. Now I really don't believe that story about Shorty driving off with those creeps in a car. Shorty knew those were Manson's henchmen. This story brings the other pieces of the puzzle a little closer together.

Matt said...

Very thought provoking, don't you think? Doesn't the "beating" Manson took from Shorty, change the "motive" for killing Shorty, and if so

(1) Why did the prosecution intentionally miss-direct the Shorty motive AND

(2) Doesn't that mean the prosecution could have also intentionally miss-directed the Tate/LaBianca motives?

hmmm...


Farflung said...

Shorty’s height seems to be constantly in question. His autopsy report has him as 5’ 10” (third page from bottom).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35709412/Donald-Jerome-Shorty-Shea-Sherrif-s-Investigation-Autopsy-Report

I’m sure this is an estimate based upon some scientific assumptions, the use of lemon juice and several dice thrown by virgins, but missing by half a foot is a large deviation.

Then there’s the chronology and order of Manson, Spahn, Atkins and Shorty. This story makes it sound like Manson and Family were living on Gresham when Shorty opened a six pack of whoop ass. Perhaps this is just my poor reading comprehension acting up. So how did Manson become acquainted with Spahn’s, and why would Shorty allow the family to enter Spahn’s, after Shorty had adroitly delivered some street justice to Manson? The family did move from the Yellow Submarine (Gresham) to Spahn; correct?

This also discounts all the stories which describe how Spahn’s was ‘discovered’ by Susan Atkins or whoever, since it appears that Manson was known via Vance, who was known by Windy, who was the genesis of Shorty driving down to Gresham. For as many questions this answers, there seems to be just as many created.

DebS said...

Windy told me that Manson et al lived at Gresham twice. First was late '67 or early '68 and he was with a few of the girls. She said it was Little Harvey and Vance, who had worked at Spahn before he decided to take up trucking, that first took Manson to Spahn and that is how Manson learned of the place.

It was months later that Manson came back to Spahn looking for a place to house his Family which had grown larger. Did the prosecution know about Manson's earlier stay at Gresham? I do not know the answer to that.

Matt said...

Marlene Ful - I don't have any idea why, but after your comment, no more comments would publish. I experimented by moving your comment into the spam box. When I did that the comments below appeared.

I tried to republish your comment & the others disappeared again. Very weird. Feel free to comment again. Removing it had nothing to do with you or the contents of your comment. Just a weird glitch in Blogger, I guess.

Leigh said...

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting read. I am amazed we haven't heard this before. The way they killed Shorty is the very definition of cowardly. None of them had what it took to go toe to toe with him on their own so they set upon him like a pack of wolves. If Shorty did voluntarily get into a car with them they must've given him a pretty good why. It's never made much sense to me either. He already didn't like or trust them.

Leigh said...

Good reason, I meant.

Ole J.C. said...

No wonder Vance was at the Shea murder.

DebS said...

I think the reason why we have not heard about these things before is twofold. First and foremost was that people were scared, they were scared for themselves and for their families. Windy told me that at the time the news broke that Manson and the others had been arrested for the Tate/LaBianca murders there were four people that worked for Spahn and not associated with Manson who were unaccounted for.

Shorty was one of those people. Additionally Crossword Benny, Little Harvey and a guy named Slim were on the missing list as far as the ranch hands knew. Ruby Pearl told law enforcement as much but law enforcement did not follow up with Ruby to let her or anyone else know if those people were located.

Someone did find what happened to Crossword Benny and it turned out for the good but that was years after the fact. Crossword Benny was slightly retarded, he needed to be reminded to change his clothes and bathe. He was able to do his job at Spahn and loved it there. He was called Crossword Benny because there wasn't a crossword puzzle that he couldn't do. Benny had a relative that looked in on him from time to time. This relative didn't like the way things were looking at Spahn with Manson there. One day he picked up Benny and never took him back, he was afraid for Benny's safety. He didn't tell anyone what he was doing so as far as Ruby or the others knew Benny had disappeared.

I was able to figure out that Little Harvey died in LA Nov. 1968. Windy was not the only person who thought that Little Harvey had disappeared either. Someone totally unrelated to Spahn or Manson posted on a Topix forum for Streamland Park a couple of years ago that Harvey had disappeared. This person had apparently worked at Streamland when Harvey had Elmer there.

Windy never knew Little Harvey's last name, nor Crossword Benny's last name. Even though the ranch hands were close friends they did not ask a lot of personal questions of each other. Many times people in that line of work are getting away from something in their past. Windy was a runaway when she first came to California and had changed her name. Some of the others may have been getting away from a wife and avoiding child support or may even worse.

The fellow named Slim is just too difficult try to find with so little information. We do know what happened to Shorty. Had I been in their shoes I probably would have kept my mouth shut, too.

DebS said...

OOPS! published my comment before I was done.

The second reason I think why no one said anything about the stories we are now hearing is that it was pretty clear that all those on trial were going to be convicted. Most of the things that Windy has told me do not have direct bearing on the Tate/LaBianca murders.

After all were convicted there was such a taint on anyone that had ever stepped foot on Spahn. I imagine that those that knew things like Windy has told me just didn't want to be associated with anything to do with Spahn.

leary7 said...

yeah, the 'sub-stories' of Spahn hold great interest to me. That is why I have always wanted to hear more from the likes of Didi Lansbury and Ella Jo Bailey - intelligent people who were there but avoided the killing fields.

Shorty was from Medford Mass!!! That's two towns over from where I grew up. Tough town, lots of hoods and Mafia. It would be interesting to get a response from one of Shorty's brothers regarding his demise.

leary7 said...

And Deb. have you any info on the civil suit Shorty's first wife filed against Manson et all. I know it is cited over on Cielo but I have never heard what happened to it.

leary7 said...

Sorry, one other thing....I was disappointed that Al Springer - on the tapes over at Cielo - referred to Shorty as a bit of a dumbell dolt, almost the twin of Clem in terms of moronisism. Anyone else have insight into Shorty's persona?

Lauren Webster said...

Dumb theory but you know how in Grogans parole statement he said how Shorty was always hitting on the girls and etc (I found the statement on another site, Im too lazy to post it now)? Maybe he was trying to warn the girls of Manson and his physical abuse towards women and Charlie didn't like that as well.

Unknown said...

The motive for killing Shorty could be both the Manson ass-kicking, AND the fear of him snitching on them, of course.

By the way, what a cowardly set of a-holes, from their leader on down!

Jenn

Unknown said...

The motive for killing Shorty could be both the Manson ass-kicking, AND the fear of him snitching on them, of course.

By the way, what a cowardly set of a-holes, from their leader on down!

Jenn

DebS said...

leary7 said...
And Deb. have you any info on the civil suit Shorty's first wife filed against Manson et all. I know it is cited over on Cielo but I have never heard what happened to it.
---------------------------

No, Leary, I do not know what became of that law suit. I can ask Windy if she knows but it is doubtful. After the trials were over she moved 400 miles away and lost contact with everyone.

Do you know what county the law suit was filed in? We might be able to look it up, there should be a public record if it really happened.

Farflung said...

I found some confirmation regarding Shorty and his hometown and many brothers for your viewing pleasure:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/K4F2-V5D

Here’s another location to add to the Manson Tour for the people back east. It is actually on the left margin of the census sheet, and written sideways/vertically in cursive. Now these super scanning, hyper intelligent computers can’t seem to be able to read this, but I can because I’m cool and smart:

32 Mayberry Ave, Medford, MA

Then I checked the USAF (Air Force) BMTS (Boot Camp) Photo Project for a picture of Shorty in uniform, but the scans from some of the 1950’s books were too small to read. Who would go to the trouble of scanning all those yearbooks then upload them in an indecipherable resolution? Ya gotta just love your government at work here, thanks guys, thanks bunches. That’s all I got.

walkunafraid17 said...

I'd hate to think the beating was the motive for his death, but I have to admit i took great pleasure in reading about him kicking Manson's ass. I hope its true

Sun King said...

leary7 said...yeah, the 'sub-stories' of Spahn hold great interest to me. That is why I have always wanted to hear more from the likes of Didi Lansbury and Ella Jo Bailey - intelligent people who were there but avoided the killing fields.
------------------------------------------------------
Ditto.

This info from Windy is pretty interesting and sheds a new light on things.

I can only imagine the tension in the air when Charlie and Shorty were face to face at the Ranch. Hell if Manson was upset with Melcher over a failed record deal he must have really felt some anger with Shorty for a butt kickin.

Also amazing how new info can still come out that gives a bigger picture to how this all came together and how things went down.

Any word on the prospects of the book release from Stephanie Schram?

Cielodrive.Com said...

Does she happen to remember when this happened?

hendythefifth said...

Lauren,

Not really a dumb theory about Shorty (i.e. trying to warn the girls) at least as far as I'm concerned.

Matt,

You place beating in quotes, in writing about Windy's account of Charlie getting his ass kicked by Shorty. Are you implying that you take this account w/ a "grain" of salt, or are you implying that it sounds like more than just a beating?

DebS said...

Cielo, Windy is very bad with dates, she could not say specifically when it happened, she is going by where she was living at the time it happened, the job she had and how old her daughter was at the time. It would have been late 1967 or early 1968.

Aaron said...

Isn't there a theory that Charlie and Shorty also knew each other in San Fran? Along with Abigal Folger? I remember reading something about them knowing each other, but I don't know if it was ever confirmed. But the theory also gives more to a reason why Shorty might have been killed, knowing more about the LaBianca killings

Cielodrive.Com said...

I'm wondering if her memory is off by just one year. Most accounts put the family on Gresham in the late '68 and the first two months of '69.

DebS said...

Cielo, I don't think so because Windy said that Manson was at Gresham twice. The first time he had 3 or 4 girls with him, the second time there were more people, males and females.

Matt said...

Hendy, you are quite perceptive :)

I put beating in quotes to draw attention to the other word in quotes... motive.

In hearing Windy's first hand account of the encounters between Manson, Vance, Shea & others we get a much different and much more plausible reason for Donald Shea's death.

It should make us wonder just as much about Bugliosi and his "motive".

hendythefifth said...

Ughh! Matt, I'm not THAT perceptive (at least not last night LoL!) if I didn't make the connection between BOTH words in quotes! Oh well, try again, Hendy!

Cielodrive.Com said...

I guess I'm just confusing things. I was thinking that late 67 and the early 68 were the two times he was around. But I'm guessing that is really just one of the times he lived there. Correct?

Matt said...

Page 570-571 in DEATH TO PIGS, by Robert Hendrickson he quotes some of the 9th Circuit's Findings which explain the Shea motive as being because he squealed to the cops - as the Prosecution presented it to the Court. It's one thing for a Prosecutor to miss-represent a case in a lower court, BUT when the Prosecution knowingly presents and argues a relevant miss-representation to a higher Appellate Court, and the Appellate Court "buys it," the act of "fraud upon the Court" is cause for dismissal of at least the fraudulent testimony/evidence and cause for a "new" trial.

I like so many have always wandered WHAT exactly Clem revealed, to be let go - NO STRINGS ATTACHED.

Windy's revelations make it all make sense.

It is my understanding that one of The "Prosecutors" (Burton Katz) who put Clem away for Shea later became a judge and "let him go." So given Windy's revelations here and Clem FOR SURE knew the truth, he had that "Prosecutor" by the balls. As a judge now, but as a Prosecutor who also committed "Fraud upon the Court," Well, you get the picture: the whole fucking judicial system is nothing more than a business for con men.

Try and find a transcript of a "parole" hearing for Clem OR anything in writing, that explains why Clem was set free. It is my understanding that "The Prosecutor/Judge" just let him go!

He prosecuted Clem and others in the Manson Gang, and later as a judge was instrumental in getting Clem supposedly "paroled" BUT if Clem was paroled, which Governor OK'd it. George Deukmejian was in office. Can anyone find his ruling? I can't.

Our prosecutioral contact can find "NO" paperwork from the time of his release.

In other words, as another Prosecutor on the Grogan case, he was never even notified of Clem's release.

Don't worry about Bruce getting a new trial: The death penalty has been re-instated. OH how controversial this could be!

Saperstein said...

Kind of off topic, but Shorty is referred to as Shorty or Donald O'Shea numerous times in "Restless Souls". I just figured he had dropped the "O" for acting gigs, but after looking at the census posted by Farflung above, that doesn't appear to be the case.

Does anyone have any clue about this discrepancy?

Matt said...

O'Shea is the way he was referred to in the original police reports, which I believe is why Ms. Statman went with that spelling.

Heidi S said...

Wow this is so interesting! Deb, you must be a PI or something!
I never had the impression Shorty was that tall either.
Farf, you make me cackle with every post.
This whole story is so complicated, violent and painful. I wonder just how many lives were touched negatively by the Family. So sad.

Bing said...

Story Up

Bing said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
leary7 said...

Matt,
I have to admit being a bit surprised to see that you are as anti-Bug as the Col and others. I did not know that.
Like most bloggers I don't support HS as the sole or primary motive for TLB. But I do acknowledge this truth - proving motive is not required in a murder case. But in Manson's case Bugulosi had to prove motive because of Charlie's not being physically involved. So he took what Watkins and DeCarlo and Sadie and Kitty and several others gave him and ran with the HS theory. He thought there was enough there that he could sell it to the jurors. Wether he completely did or not can be argued but the results cannot. He got the job done. I look at him as a realator who sold a house nobody else could move. Did he embelish and contrive? No question. But he was not the first lawyer to do so. It all comes down to wether one believes the ends justify the means.
As for Shorty, it seems you are saying that the motive couldn't have been to silence a snitch but was more likely retribution for a beating he gave Charlie. The problem with that thesis is that there is now way possible to know for sure other than Charlie himself coming clean and saying why he ordered the killing. And we all know that ain't gonna happen.

And if you are speculating that Clem used his knowledge that the prosecutors used a contrived motive to get a conviction as leverage to get himself released, why wouldn't Bruce have used the same tactic? Why would Bruce sit passively in jail for forty years watching Grogan frolick free for the past 25 if he had the same info?
I'm not saying you're wrong about the Shea motive, I just think that both the snitch and beating theories are true. One does not have to exclude the other.

Matt said...

leary7 said...
Why would Bruce sit passively in jail for forty years watching Grogan frolick free for the past 25 if he had the same info?


Leary, I'm not anti-bug, I just think HS is mostly BS.

I think it's possible that Davis may have been involved in the James Sharp, Doreen Gaul, Marina Habe and Mark Walts killings - not to mention bodies that may be up at Barker Ranch. How could he possibly come clean on say one of these and deny knowledge of the others? I don't think he could cut a deal even if he wanted to.

Clem got lucky - very lucky.

leary7 said...

Good point Matt. But at 70 and in poor health Bruce has to do something radical if he harbors any hope for freedom. Staying conservative and silent just insures that Brown and anyone who follows will just wave that "heinous nature of crime" banner again. Unless Bruce is content to die in prison, he has to roll the dice. From what I understand now he and his lawyer are hoping that the courts somehow overrule the Gov. Ain't gonna happen.

DebS said...

leary7 said....I'm not saying you're wrong about the Shea motive, I just think that both the snitch and beating theories are true. One does not have to exclude the other.
------------------------------
I agree that one motive does not exclude the other and possibly it's a bit of both. Aside from what Windy has told me I believe it has been mentioned in more than one book that Ruby Pearl was totally against Manson and crew being on the ranch and said as much to George Spahn as well as others. She almost had Manson kicked out of there for good at one point.

Ruby Pearl could certainly be seen as a snitch but she didn't get killed. That's why I tend to believe there was more than the snitch story as the sole reason for Shorty's murder. It's quite possible that Bruce did not know about the beating Manson took from Shorty. I don't think that Manson would have broadcast that story as it would have made him look weak.

leary7 said...

you know Deb, as strange and ridiculous as this sounds, I think Charlie would have felt killing Ruby was in bad taste. It certainly might have stirred up some negativity amongst the females of the Family. Shorty, on the other hand, he could spin as a traitor.

DebS said...

leary7 said...
you know Deb, as strange and ridiculous as this sounds, I think Charlie would have felt killing Ruby was in bad taste. It certainly might have stirred up some negativity amongst the females of the Family. Shorty, on the other hand, he could spin as a traitor.
------------------------

Yep, your right, that does sound strange and ridiculous!

I'm sure Abigail, Rosemary and a pregnant Sharon would disagree with you. Ruby had to be a thorn in the girls side just as much as in Charlie's.

leary7 said...

It is almost impossible to imagine, but I still feel Manson had certain codes and standards. He would have known killing Ruby would cause much distress to George Spahn, and all accounts are that he remained grateful and friendly to George.
It is always risky to "humanize" Manson or other Family members, but when I said the girls might have been upset with Ruby being killed I didn't mean because she was a woman, but because she was a close friend of a friend. Several of the girls were upset with Gary being killed, in fact Ella Jo, an original, left because of it.
It's just a thought.

eviliz said...

We are getting closer to...
something.

grimtraveller said...

Matt said...

Very thought provoking, don't you think? Doesn't the "beating" Manson took from Shorty, change the "motive" for killing Shorty, and if so

(1) Why did the prosecution intentionally miss-direct the Shorty motive


Well, that of course assumes that the prosecution were aware of this alleged beating. Who would they have heard it from ? Harvey was tossed out of the way, Vance was unconscious and Windy, though she tells the story doesn't say she actually saw it. Manson never admitted to it and Shorty was dead.
So how could the prosecution have even been aware of it ?
Fact is, they didn't even know whether Shorty was even dead. With that in mind, they went primarily with the rumours, some of which turned out to be inaccurate. They teased a motive out of the info they had available. Exactly as Bugliosi did with TLB.