Saturday, October 19, 2013

"WeR7" - DEBUNKING THE BUNK: An Introduction

Introduction | Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

Over the past 4 1/2 decades, the myths, the conspiracy theories, and sometimes even the lies of the Manson murders has spiraled out of control. An off-handed comment to the press, such as Dennis Hopper's quote to the Free Press about the Cielo Drive victims: "They had fallen into orgies, sadism and masochism and bestiality, and they recorded it all on videotape" had the power in 1969 to perpetuate countless false tales about what was really happening at Cielo Drive in the months before the murders. False tales that continue to this day.

But, we here at are seeking the truth. Therefore, we will be publishing an on-going series of posts that we hope will weed through some of these fallacies and, together with all of you, uncover something closer to the truth than ever previously documented. These posts will be joint efforts involving two or more of our blog authors and as such will be posted under the alias "WeR7" (We who seek the Truth).

This will not be a series of speculation. We will only document inaccurate accounts that we feel we can disprove with evidence - or as any court of law will allow - substantial circumstantial evidence supporting our case.

Since one of the most recent accounts of the murders (aside from Jeff Guinn's book) comes from Nikolas Schreck's, The Manson File we'll begin here and work our way backward in time.

Schreck's book is painstakingly researched; leaving no doubt that he is an expert on Manson. In a gesture of civility, as we should all be to each other, it's tough to criticize this author who has put forth the time and effort to assemble a book of this magnitude.

The problem with The Manson File, aside from Schreck's information pertaining to Charles Manson's life, philosophy, and culpability in the murders of 1969, is that there is so much glaringly inaccurate information on the victims, the murders, and in turn, the case he presents as the motive, that if left unchecked will become historical fact to future researchers of this case and in turn perpetuate more lies.

To get to Schreck's motive for the murders he weaves his reader through almost 900 pages of supporting (albeit what we believe to be false) documentation. In its simplest form, the motive for the Cielo murders comes down to a drug burn planned by Charles Watson and Linda Kasabian against Woytek Frykowski and Jay Sebring, a motive which is ultimately protected by the mafia, their secrets, and their control over government officials.

As a note, since Schreck only speculates on several LaBianca motives, we'll focus for the moment on the Cielo murders.

In order to debunk his 900-page-motive, we will need to examine it piece by piece, page by page. Since a man by the name of Joel Rostau is the seemingly epicenter of Schreck's motive we'll begin there MONDAY!

Introduction | Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3


Max Frost said...


orwhut said...

When do we get to the part on Dennis Hopper? I want to know if he ever recanted his statement.

St. Circumstance said...


exactly how I feel Max- you know, I am sorry we got off to a bad start- eventually we probably would have gotten along pretty well. You an alright guy with a god sense of humor.

I was going to write one last post for this blog, but I cant figure out a way to do it without offending people I know the blog supports, so let me exit in this way if I may, and if it is allowed to stand consider it my last comment on TLB- for despite my prior promises- this is it.

I assume the members of this new coalition are people I have been friendly with, and have worked with in the past.

Anne, Patty, Deb- I have always enjoyed the hell out of you and even though I know I rubbed Patty the wrong way-I have never and will never say a bad word about any of you. Liz- you gave me my first forum to write and yap even though I had no experience and our private conversations have been a delight. I hope your life turns out well, and I am quite sure you will stay in touch :)

Matt- you have been my first, oldest and most influential friend in the community- Thanks for everything.

Time to move on. Nothing more to learn here. People are writing books now regurgitating old news, theories, legends.

Col is posting about other crimes, and Some of the other blogs have gone into hiatus.

Hmmmmmm..... lol

Now my alltime favorite blog is going to start a real quest for the truth with Nicolas Schreck?

As much as it pains me to say this- we are out of fresh good ides. All of us. I know Robert Hendrickson is a very important player in this community, and his participation is quite a windfall. But I am true and honest to myself at all times, and I do not believe he holds any great answers, any more than Schreck does.

Let me extrapolate please :

St. Circumstance said...

I have done as much reading, listening, and watching as anyone could have for the last 5 plus years. I have read almost everything there is. To just keep saying Bugs did this or that, and invented this or that flies in the face of everything I have seen or come across. with the exception of secret witnesses and hidden agendas, and flat out rumors.

Charlie orchestrated the murders on those nights- I have no doubt. Why he did so I have some doubt. What reason the murderers THOUGHT THEY were doing it? That is still murky to me BUT...

I have still after all these years not seen anything from anyone to prove something different then what Bugs was able to prove.

So before everyone kills me For being honest- I will take this as my time to go BEFORE the fights :)

I am not a Manson Fanatic. I am a California in the 60's fanatic. I got interested in this when I first started reading and thought there was a whole different reason all this happened. I don't think now after 7 years of relentless searching- I am any closer than I was when it first hit me I didn't know all there was to know.

But unlike others- I am willing to accept that we may know all we ever know. The players in this case are getting very old and are all going to be dead soon. then we will forever be speculating, and guessing and fighting over something none of us will be able to verify or prove. That will be an advantage to those who have a vested interest in keeping this alive for whatever reason anyone would want to keep obsessing over a horrific crime which hurt many people such a long time ago.

What a depressing idea to keep going back to this dark place with no hope of any real resolution...

But for those willing to listen and believe any idea no matter how preposterous- there are those willing to make this last for you forever.

I listened to Schreck on a Radio program flat out say this is his last conversation about the subject until after the time of so and so dies. I guess if you want the real truth from him- you have to follow his website or email him every day until whomever this anonymous person is passes away. But how we will know who and when is a mystery, and I don't plan on waiting for him or following him every day indefinitely.

I dont believe personally he knows jack shit.

So if it is your plan to start a search for the truth with him. I will end my participation at the same point and we can all shake hands and say thanks and goodbye as friends....

Good luck, its been a blast and I wish you all the best until the next time...

St. Circumstance said...

and finally...

The truth is the truth. A real search for the truth has to be wiling to accept the truth when it comes. A real search for truth has to be willing to accept that maybe they will end the search without the prize.

you cant just keep using coincidences and distant connections to draw the line in the direction you want it to go endlessly.

That is a search for the truth you want. And if you search that way for long enough. you will probably find what your looking for...

"Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth".


"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."

John F. Kennedy

Peace Bothers and Sisters!!

Unknown said...

Saint, I've read your comments three times, and it seems to me that you are misunderstanding this WeR7 post when you say,"Now my all time favorite blog is going to start a real quest for the truth with Nicolas Schreck". You say it again, later, with "So if it is your plan to start a search for the truth with him."

The way I read today's post, it's a lead-in to DEBUNKING Schreck, not supporting his theories. Maybe I'm wrong. But, I don't think so.

Suze said...

No offense st, but I believe this is at least round 562 of the St. Circumstance Farewell Tour.

Cindy, I read that the same way you did. See you Monday.

Matt said...

To Patty:

We're already on the same train going through the mountains, BUT the view from one side is that of a mountain side and the other is of an abyss (canyon). Which is the TRUE perspective?

Mathematics is a TRUE science, BUT if you give two people the SAME book of mathematical TRUTHs, one will comprehend math to the fullest degree and the other just won't get-it. How can that be so? In fact, the degrees of comprehension among many people reading the same book - likely equals 360 degrees. WHY?

Robert Hendrickson

NOTE: Applies to both recent posts and likely your whole website!

Patty is Dead said...

"In an interview Scott-Heron said of the song (The revolution will not be televised) 'That song was about your mind. You have to change your mind before you change the way you live and the way you move...The thing that's going to change people will be something that no one will ever be able to capture on film. It will just be something you see and all of a sudden you realize 'I'm on the wrong page.' "

Patty is Dead said...

ST. Patty finds it really striking that you are ready to put a cap on it, call it a day, and just say that The Bug got it all right and all the conjecture from there on out has been just that. You can't cap the story yet, it continues to evolve. It ain't over till its over. Stay tuned!

Farflung said...

As a poorly closeted historian, I would be amazed if this subject manages some marginal success. This is not a put-down, but a statement of presumed fact regarding history and survivors of any event. My latest theory is that in order to complete an objective study of history, all the players, and their relatives must be dead for at least 70 years. It has to be ice cold to the touch and not just cool.

I’ve long been vexed by the conditions which produced the extermination camps in Europe during WWII. I had long settled on the answer that people simply weren’t aware of just what was going on in those places; answers which were supplied by family, teachers, and those from Europe. Then I was sent to Munich on yet another forgettable business trip and arrived during one of the dozen “bank holidays” secretly celebrated along with the dozen traditional holidays. I noticed that Dachau was a suburb and namesake of one of the extermination camps, with a memorial in this town of 60,000 inhabitants. More than a quarter million people were “processed” there. As the taxi approached the camp memorial (which is actually the remains of the camp), I quickly realized my previous assumption had a value of absolute zero. In a country widely regarded as the Gladys Kravitz of Europe, there was a compound surrounded with barbed wire which held the equivalent of half the population of the town, and NO ONE was aware of something being amiss? Balderdash. They knew damned well something nefarious was going on, but a more flattering answer will have to suffice till the last of these folks, and their children have passed, along with 70 years (again this is just my ‘latest’ theory).

Now let’s add another pile of chaff to the mix in the form of things which happen in California. I have found a unique behavior associated with this state, where people feel an overwhelming need to declare they are Californians, after some self assigned time frame (6 weeks to 18 months). I’ve lived in many places and have not observed this behavior outside the Golden State. I couldn’t imagine after living in Japan for a couple years, going to work and proclaiming how I consider myself Japanese now. I wouldn’t even THINK about it in Texas, as I have a relatively strong desire to NOT get my ass kicked. But a self proclaimed Californian could look old enough to know better, or know about crimes like Manson, Zodiac, or Chessman, but inadvertently add bias from their home state without knowing about it, or giving a crap. It usually becomes apparent when their recall of California seems to match some movie or book, rather than the environment I remember. Like Haight and Venice being magical places when they were dumps. The ‘Russian Embassy’ was purchased the same year I bought my first home (a very ordinary 3/2 in the Midwest) and I paid $500 more. That should put a bit of perspective on the photographs since many (most) people have not been to the area and use modern time which amplifies bias.

I remember going with my father to the county bureaucracy and getting a permit for a new septic system he was installing. The permits and inspections were a new hassle and were blamed on….. the hippies. They were setting up communes and this was a way to make sure those damn, dirty, hippies did something right, or run them off the property. Knott’s Berry Farm started charging admission for the first time because…. the hippies would hang out and menace the place and customers. Believe any of this? Or was Flower Power embraced and welcomed in California just like in the movies? Or is there a third option to this often visited and warped subject? History takes many attempts, with much attribution to get anything close to some reality. Now imagine adding bias, prejudice, monetization, and flat out fetishes into the process and you get 120 books on one criminal event. All claiming to be the truth.

Patty is Dead said...

If History is written by the winners, then by golly, let's be Howard Zinn!

Matt said...

And let's keep in mind the purpose of WeR7 is not to present what we believe to be the truth (at least not YET), but to clear up and dispose of inaccuracies so that they do not become part of history.

Max Frost said...

Yeah St., Cindy is correct.

The first mission of WeR7 (according to the post) is to DEBUNK Shrek - not embark on a quest for truth with him.

Gotta wait til Monday. So stay tuned...

Anonymous said...

It was 563
The Uniform Rules of Evidence enacted in 1952 - Circumstantial Evidence has the same weight as Direct"

Matt said...

To Doc Sierra:

YES the "Vietnam War" was LBJ's Pride & Joy, BUT before that, when Ike made an alliance with Billy Graham - the "Right" was born. Then, a President Kennedy first spoke of Vietnam War in a speech. He mentioned that we must first give the Blacks their civil rights - otherwise they won't go to war in Vietnam for America. His now infamous "Pentagrass" letter also confirms his intention to go to war in Vietanm. BUT he died before he could execute his plan, except the CIA did have the President of South Vietnam overthrown. So Johnson initiated a full-fledged war in Vietnam, BECAUSE, as he explained, WE must stop the "Communists." Of course, the Republicians went along with LBJ lying about US warships being attacked in the Gulf of Tonklin and voted for him to have the power to go to WAR.

I only learned of the Graham / IKE alliance a few months ago.

Robert Hendrickson

P.S. The idea of separating the myths from facts is intelligent. You can start with WHO the "pigs" were NOT.

Matt said...

Did you know Melcher LIED to the police when questioned about his relationship with the Manson women? Guinn (the author) told LA Weekly Melcher lied to the cops, that he actually was balling the girls, just like D. Wilson. So was he also blowing Charlie - because that could open-up all kinds of "motives." Because this was NOT common knowledge in the Family - it's possible that Charlie really did have a "private" service going on in the Hollywood community. AND the Laural Canyon gang that put-up the $25,000 reward - were they being "caring" of Sharon OR were they just trying to protect their own interests/well-being?

The REAL "Hollywood story" may be more interesting than the "Manson story."

Stay tuned to your favorite MANSON blog!

Robert Hendrickson

Unknown said...

I've always thought that Melcher's part in the story ought to be more thoroughly investigated.

Farflung said...

Here’s a pseudo-random (meaning I picked it) sample, in the form of a single paragraph from “Taming of the Beast: Charles Manson’s Life Behind Bars”:

“T. J. Walleman, the biker who prepared Manson’s escape hideout in the Panamint Valley, remained a faithful follower until he died suddenly and violently in June 1995. Walleman, fifty-two, smashed his pickup truck head-on into an eighteen-wheeler on U.S. 395, in Kern County, California. Investigators said that the longtime Manson disciple was trying to pass another vehicle and didn’t make it. He left three young children and a wife who had taken the name “Anson” to honor Charlie.”

OK then, here’s some sample questions to test the mettle of this teeny weenie data set,

1. Was Walleman a biker?

2. Did he prepare Manson’s “escape” hideout?

3. Was Walleman a “faithful” follower from ’68 till his death?

4. Did Walleman crash on US 395 in Kern County?

5. Did Walleman have three young children?

6. Was Walleman’s wife named Anson?

7. Did she take that name to honor Charlie?

It just seems so utterly imponderable considering the horrendous volume of information, and the already well established guano content of most books. This is just one paragraph, off one page, out of 304 pages, from one book, out of a hundred books.

There’s going to be a need for some stringent operating agreements, inclusion criteria (excluding butthurt), exclusion triggers (including butthurt), and data weighting (excluding “cuz I said so”) in order to avoid the morass of mental tar pits, capable of bogging down a mighty Saber-toothed Tiger, with their oozing and gaseous non-sequitur logic loops. Like having the nickname ‘Gypsy’ or ‘Joker’: means membership in a 1%er club, and how a person who has never been seen on a motorcycle, can somehow magically become a biker. Really weird, but happens on almost a continual basis regarding this subject for some, as of yet to be identified reason(s).

I truly hope to see a reasonable logic train which will detangle the garbled picture which exists today. But that also requires a paradigm shift from being the “first person” to find something (whatever that means), claims of who has the freshest lawn clippings from the La Bianca’s front yard, and having studied whatever the longest to; open source and sourced information with full attribution. This will work just fine until something gets between someone and their Kibble bowl, then you should know what happens next.

Patty is Dead said...

Mr and Mrs Patty once spent hours and gallons looking for a place on the 395 matching the photos in Bill Nelson's book of TJ's crash site. We doubled back but never did find it. Patty assumed, like you are saying Farf, that somebody got a detail or two confused along the way.

Patty is Dead said...

PS if you want to eat MDA laced kibble with Patty, please, by all means have at it.

Matt said...


Doc Sierra said...

To Robert Hendrickson,

Good points on Vietnam.....

Farflung said...

Here’s a quote from TJ’s sister-in-law:

“Tom died in a head on collision with a Mac truck on June 7, 1995. He was 54 yrs old when he died.

On the day of Tom's death, he and Lori (Ansom13) had just had a horrible fight. Tom dropped her off at their home, and then sped away in anger. He was trying to pass a car on a curve in the road and couldn't see the truck coming from around the bend. He couldn't get back into his lane fast enough to avoid the collision, according to witnesses. Tom and his pickup truck were burned and all that was left of Tom intact was one hand.”

Where does one begin? He was 52, but that’s trivia and anyone could mistake someone’s age.

On that day TJ and the little lady had such a fierce fight, that he dropped her off at Dreamland (Trona), then sped off to US 395, over 30 miles distant. Wow, that’s some serious anger when an old coot can still be that pissed after driving 30 miles and passing through Ridgecrest. Even as a testosterone based life form in my teens, I couldn’t muster enough moxie for that long of a conniption. I guess I was a pussie.

But forget all that too. Cuz now we're at 395 in enchanting Kern County. Which way did he go? Well North only has about three miles of two-lane, straight as an arrow road, before becoming a divided highway at the only thing resembling a curve. Not a likely candidate. That leaves the stretch of road south from 178 to the living ghost town of Johannesburg. Just trying to contain the fear and loathing a little bit here. A total of 24 miles and 6 curves, using the most liberal definition of the word curve. Really.

Now I’ve driven 395 dozens of times and can say that if there is a blind curve, it is because, you in fact- are blind. That area is pure, unobstructed vistas of desert, where many curves have two lanes for the uphill side of traffic. Additionally, if I were to NOT see a big rig barreling down that desert highway; what chance would a biker, or sedan packed with children have? Yes, it is zero.

But you have been up and down 395. How many curves did you observe which would camouflage a semi-truck and trailer? Did you say to the hubby “How the fawk could anyone not see oncoming traffic?” You must have noticed the terrain. Why didn’t TJ keep going left and simply drive into the desert or off the shoulder of the road? Are these questions too imponderable for a plausible if not probable analysis? Are drugs involved? Was this a perfectly timed “maneuver”? Or was he just trying to pass another vehicle with his hands at the ten and two o’clock position, when the utterly unexpected, and unforeseeable took place, which could happen to any of us with equal probability?

Patty is Dead said...

No blind corners. No landscapes in the distance that match the photo. No telephone pole, power lines, fence, little cottage. None of it. Usually after 20 years things change but they don't change that much. The Pattys are pretty sure it did not happen "on the 395 in Kern County."

One thing that can cause you to drift into another lane when you are pissed off is trying to light your bowl with one hand, hold it in the other, while still keeping the car moving in he proper direction. Who knows?

Trilby said...


Trilby said...