Chapter six: "The Shooting of Bernard Crowe"
Stimson claims that this incident was one of two main catalysts that led to the murders later that summer, and was a naive effort by Tex Watson alone to raise a little cash. Tex got Rosina Kroner to raise $5,000 for a marijuana deal that ostensibly Bernard Crowe helped her to raise. When the three of them travelled to the dealer's apartment, Tex slipped out the back leaving Rosina with a very angry Crowe, who called Spahn demanding his money back. If he did not get his money, he threatened to come to the ranch and kill everyone there.
While Tex claims that it had previously been agreed that Charlie would handle the aftermath of the theft, Charlie claims that this was never so. Stimson agrees with Charlie's version because he was not "criminally naive" enough to have set the deal up in the first place. On the other hand, Stimson asserts that Tex already had a reputation as a thief because it was his idea that Linda Kasabian should rip off her husband's friend for $5,000 that summer. Stimson quotes Tex from Will You Die for Me as having said that "I thought a while and came up with an idea" and "it was MY mess." Charlie claims that he told Tex to give the money back, but rather he ran to the hills to hide out with Sadie. Then Charlie was stuck holding the bag and had to do something to protect his family from being up into danger.
When Charlie shot Crowe, he thought he had killed him. He also thought that meant that Tex was inadventently going to cost him his own life and as such, he told Tex that Tex OWED him big time. The very next day, the new reported that a Black Panther had been killed in Griffith Park, and the Family mistakenly thought it was Crowe. This is significant according to Stimson because the Family therefore believed that Charlie had killed for the benefit and survival of the family, which set a standard and demonstrated the extent of Charlie's love for them. From this point on they all became capable of murder.
Furthermore, Stimson says that Tex wrote in his book about how Charlie brought up the Crowe affair on the night of Cielo. This is further significant in showing that Charlie didn't order the murders that night because if Charlie had been involved, there would not have been any debt for Tex to have to pay back.
Chapter Seven: "The Murder of Gary Hinman"
While some of their specific assertions conflict, both Bobby Beausoleil and Charlie have claimed that the murder of Gary Hinman was indeed a drug deal gone bad and not a strong-armed robbery as many have asserted. Bobby's story is that the Straight Satans were having their tenth anniversary party in Venice Beach, and that he wanted to be invited, so he tried to score "something different" to impress them. He claims that Gary was making mescaline from peyote in his basement and that he bought 1,000 tabs for $1,000. The next day, the angry bikers beat Bobby up and demanded their money back, which is why Bobby paid Gary a visit in the days before his murder on July 31, 1969. But since Bobby did not have any of the so-called bad drugs for Gary to test, Gary assumed that Bobby was trying to rip him off.
Bobby also asserts that Charlie did not order him to kill Gary and that he did not make the phonecall to Spahn that the police later discovered from Gary's telephone records. Rather, he claims that the girls, who were unaware of the purpose of the visit in the first place, called Charlie to say that they were in trouble and that Gary had a gun. This is why Charlie had Bruce Davis drive him from Spahn Ranch to Gary's house where he took Gary's gun away and cut his ear with a machete. Prior to Charlie's arrival, Bobby said that Gary had signed over the pink slips to his cars which Bobby was going to give to the bikers in lieu of the $1,000. According to his account, a gentleman's agreement had already been achieved before Charlie showed up and cut Gary, purportedly to protect the girls. Only after Charlie cut Gary did Gary threaten to go to the police, at which point Bobby said he "acted irrationally" and killed Gary.
Susan Atkins tells a different story when she says that the pink slips to Gary's cars were not turned over until two days later. Charlies version differs as well. He says that Bobby asked him what he should do about the bunk drugs and that Charlie told him to forget about it. Bobby however wanted to pay the visit to Gary because it was a matter of principle for him. When Charlie showed up, he cut Gary to show Bobby how to be a man at which point Charlie says the pink slips were turned over and he left. After he left, he claims that Gary said he was going to kill Charlie and so Bobby killed Gary first to protect his friend. Charlie claims that he never told Bobby what to do.
At some point, Gary's gun was fired since a bullet hole was found by police in the kitchen. No one can agree about when it actually went off, however. Stimson claims that although some things still don't make sense, no one says that they went there with the intention of killing Gary. "People don't normally administer first aid to their victims before killing them," he claims. The killing only occurred after Gary went back on his word to not go to the authorities over his slashed ear and therefore was not premeditated as the prosecution would have us believe. Stimson says that Bobby killed Gary to protect Manson. He killed for brother, just as Manson did when he believed he killed Crowe. Stimson is painting an overall picture here in which Charlie is not the father of a group of children who unquestioningly did his bidding: rather, they all had a more equal social and emotional relationship based on mutual love and reciprocity.
Chapters Eight and Nine: "Introduction to the Tate La Bianca Murders" and "The Murders on Cielo Drive
Stimson says very little about the murders on Cielo, save the following: They were not random, nor isolated, but part of a larger series of events that arose out of "illegal drug transactions gone awry, underworld favors owed, and an ill-conceived plan to divert police attention from a previous murderous occurrence." All four participants admit to what they did, but did Charlie really "mastermind" them? Charlie told Stimson that perhaps he did, but "unknowingly." Everyone remembers Charlie telling the girls to do whatever Tex said and to "leave something witchy." Charlie also remembers giving them the old pair of glasses to leave behind in order to cause confusion. While Tex remembers that Charlie specifically told him to kill the occupants of Cielo and in exactly what way, Stimson believes that Tex was either mistaken or outright lying. Future chapters are to elaborate on what Stimson believes the true motive was.
Stimson has a bit more to say about Waverly because each of the participants' memories of what exactly happened differ much as they did in the instance of Gary's Murder. More on that next time.
"Good morning Vietnam" AND welcome to NO sense makes sense !!!!!!!
Geez thanks Patty, this is pretty good stuff. It makes me a little more open to the idea that Charlie wasn't necessarily pulling the strings. I never thought about the part of Bobby could have brought some of the drug back for Gary to test. But he doesn't have much to say about Cielo? Hmmm.
Looks like JUST you and me Hump.
What keeps me thinking is the fact that a 30 year old guy - who just spent HALF his life behind bars - risks going BACK to the shit-hole for some dope-head hickabilly's fuck-up (Re: B.Crow / Tex) BUT then if you look at the history of crime and criminals, that is the PATTERN !.
There is something about PRISON that draws a certain breed IN.
Is NOBODY - not even the government, interested in realizing what that ATTRACTION is ?
Hinman "not premeditated" because they didn't go to Gary's to kill him and only decided to after Gary went back on his word? That's cute, George, I didn't realize the decision to kill because someone went back on their word doesn't constitute premeditation. Nice new legal definition to suit your purposes, but try using it in court.
And Charlie knew Crowe wasn't dead. He told the cops that on July 28 when they paid their little "visit" to Spahn in a midnight miniraid.
He also knew he wasn't a Panther and there were no reports in any media of a Panther being killed in Griffith Park during the week Crowe was shot. All part of the myth created by Sandy, George, etc., to exonerate their hero.
Have one of your archivists do a little research, Patty-poo, and see if they can find the Griffith Park Panther murder report. They won't. It don't exist.
Vera, thank you for contributing to the discussion for a change. Interesting stuff.
OMG ! Now it ALL makes sense.
July 28, 1969, the day after Gary Hinman's murder, Charlie Manson tells his CONTACT at LAPD he shot the black drug dealer Bernard Crow on July 1, 1969, BUT that Crow didn't die.
Apparently HIS contact then instructed MANSON to, the next time, REALLY start "Helter Skelter" properly - with messages on the walls in blood, etc.
LEGAL QUESTION: Is Charlie's LAPD contact considered a co-conspirator in connection with the TL murders.
Where are you pulling this information from, Vera? You're speaking in a matter of fact manner, but everything you say is assumption. The ONLY thing he told the cops when they showed up was that they anticipated an attack by the black panthers. He said nothing about a shooting. If you think Manson would tell the cops he shot somebody, you're an idiot. How do you Manson knew Crowe wasn't dead? By all accounts, he didn't. Just because you can't find a murder report from 1969, doesn't mean a thing. TJ the Terrible said he and Manson saw the news report. TJ was certainly a nut, but I don't think he was lying.
..and let's say Charlie did know Crowe was alive. That might be even more reason to be scared shitless about a retaliation.
"Hinman "not premeditated" because they didn't go to Gary's to kill him and only decided to after Gary went back on his word? That's cute, George, I didn't realize the decision to kill because someone went back on their word doesn't constitute premeditation. Nice new legal definition to suit your purposes, but try using it in court."
The decision to kill Gary Hinman for going back on his word certainly does indicate premeditation -- for Bobby Beausoleil. But it doesn't indicate it for Charles Manson, who was gone from the scene for quite some time before the decision was made to kill Hinman. He had no intention or foreknowledge that Hinman would be killed.
"And Charlie knew Crowe wasn't dead. He told the cops that on July 28 when they paid their little "visit" to Spahn in a midnight miniraid."
Echoing RH and PK, you're saying that Charlie had a conversation with police on July 28 wherein he gave the impression that he knew details about the shooting of Bernard Crowe? Did he just volunteer this information during an informal chat? I'd love to know your source for this contention.
"He also knew he wasn't a Panther and there were no reports in any media of a Panther being killed in Griffith Park during the week Crowe was shot. All part of the myth created by Sandy, George, etc., to exonerate their hero.
Have one of your archivists do a little research, Patty-poo, and see if they can find the Griffith Park Panther murder report. They won't. It don't exist."
You're right about no media reports about a black panther shooting (which certainly would have been big news) and I say as much on page 129 of my book. (Perhaps you missed that when you read it?) But whether it was a rumor that was misrepresented as a news report or a complete fabrication, the paranoia of the people at Spahn's Ranch was very great regarding black people after Manson shot Bernard Crowe. I heard this from people who were there. And that's a good enough source for me, because I was with those people long enough that I could evaluate their credibility, and I'm certain that they were being truthful. (Didn't you get that impression after talking with them?)
As for "That's cute, George" and "All part of the myth created by Sandy, George, etc., to exonerate their hero." -- well, it's meant to be insulting, and it is. I haven't heard such childishness since the halcyon days of Bill Nelson. But it was stupid then and it's stupid now, because it detracts from the fundamental gravity of what we're dealing with here. People are dead. Other people are in prison forever. Still more people have had their personal lives devastated. To personalize the discussion here is juvenile and counter-productive. If you maintain a level of respect for your fellow posters you and your opinions will be more highly regarded. If you don't, they might think that you're just a snarky bitch.
Mr. Stimson, avoid confusing Vera with the facts. That could be a very slippery slope. It never works and only serves to make her "snarkier".
Poor Charlie. He's a living legend, the Most Evil Man in America, an Evil Messiah, the Man Who Killed The Sixties, sociopathic brainwasher of otherwise-innocent American youth - and here are you facts-and-evidence junkies trying to rob him of his laurels...
For better OR worse, the information on the INTERNET is fast approching the TIME when NOTHING will be 100% verifiable anymore. There will NO longer be any actual TRUTH. Everything will be, to a certain degree, MYTH !
Thus, it is NOW the time when everyone is racing to get THEIR version of a STORY in print.
It is already established that the INTERNET is simply one BIG advertising "Click" MACHINE. Just ask MATT ?
So the TRUTH is already just a measure of ENTERTAINMENT advertising. For God's sake - one only needs to open an eye - even the POPE and the president of the United States have a "commercial" website.
YOU want some TRUTH before it's muddled forever ? Ask Steven Spielberg why HE will NEVER do a movie about the 1960s / Vietnam WAR / The Manson Family ?
YES Michael and Tina Turner sang it best: "We don't need another hero..."
Made me think - after our last two heros JFK and LBJ - nobody wants to be known by their (3) initials.
OR three letters W-A-R. Maybe the "American Sniper" will bring back the good-old days ?
The "news" just reported that ex-American soldiers, who are devote "Christains" are going back to the Middle East, on their own, to fight the Evil ISIS Muslims. NOW that's got to be a first ! YEP, Sandy, the Christians are now "rising-up."
Robert, Patty agrees.
With the first part about the internet that is
Initials. I've often thought that "Adolf J. Hitler" would've had a more professional ring to it, not to mention a friendlier one, and might've robbed some of his decisions of their controversy.
It used to be said that the victor gets to write the history. Nowadays the victor is whoever gets to sell the movie and merchandising rights, regardless of the history.
Writing is for losers, history is whatever you want it to have been. It's all very relaxed, and all they want in return is your blood or your soul, and your silence.
the Black Panther was found in a dumpster near UCLA I thought not Griffith Park... It wasn't premeditation because no one went there with the idea of killing anyone...Vera is a loon... I need to get this book
Patty needs t get her some more Colonel...what you doing this April?
As I remember the story, a supposed Black Panther was reported in the news as being found "shot" on the hospital front lawn,
The Family assumed it was Crow, that his crew dropped him off there.
Isn't it also reasonable to assume the COPS didn't give a shit - CAUSE it was a BLACK man who was shot ?
Had the COPS looked for and found Crow's assailant - maybe the beautiful Sharon Tate would be alive today.
At the time, the notorious RACIST Ed Davis was police chief of LA. For those who think Manson was a racist - where do you think HE got his inspiration.
21 Through 27, call Matt. :) xoxo
I was troubled by the only one phone call to the ranch.
Below is an extract from an interview given by Beausoleil to Michael Moynihan published in the 50th issue of Seconds magaine in 1999:
"What they used to 'support' this was a phone call from Gary Hinman's residence to the Spahn Ranch. There were two calls. The first one I told you about: one of the girls had called. The second one was when I was panicked over what to do about Gary, and I called the ranch and got Charlie on the phone and said "look man, you've left me with this problem. You came and cut this guy; there was no need for that. It's your problem." And he essentially told me "well, you know what to do as well as I do." He just kind of put it back in my court and hung up."
Q: and later that was alleged to be an "order" from him, telling you to kill Gary.
"Yes, as in "you know what to do" - that's how it was characterized, in an insinuating tone of voice."
Q: Which is meaningless really.
"Similar words in a completely different context."
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