Monday, December 10, 2018

The Snitches of Spahn

".. somebody was watching every move he(Manson) made..."
      --Preston Guillory, ex-LASO Deputy who participated in the Spahn Ranch raid

In the wake of the Aug 16, 1969 Spahn Ranch Raid, Charlie and Family thought that someone had ratted them out to the cops.  At the top of their list was ranch hand Shorty Shea, who got murdered because of it.  Frank Retz, a neighbor who allegedly wanted the Mansons gone, is also mentioned in this regard.

But there is evidence that the Family may have had an abundance of snitches:
sbuch113 said...
"I know a man who was a Jr. Fireman at the fire station near the Spahn Ranch during the Manson era. Years ago he told me of some of the strange goings on at the ranch.  He went into quite a bit of detail about how the ranch was being watched by law enforcement....... Including an on site informant and from strategic hilltop locations. He also talked about the frequent contact fireman had with Manson and others."

Who was it?  Some names:

Ruby Pearl Molinaro

Her obituary said, “She ran the Spahn Ranch where the Manson Gang was caught. She noticed lots of guns and knives in Charles Manson’s dune buggy and called the sheriff. He was then taken into custody.”
 [Credit to DebS]

Kitty Lutesinger

On page 9 of the Spahn Ranch Raid Report/PDF file we read :

"On the date of August 10, 1969, at approximately 12:15 p.m., your affiant, William G. Gleason, received information from Informant No. 1"

Author Ed Sanders makes clear that 'Informant No. 1' is Lutesinger::

"On August 10, Sunday, Sergeant William Gleason of the Los Angeles sheriff's office visited Kitty Lutesinger at her parents' ranch where she had fled following Manson's kill-threats. Sergeant Gleason was compiling a file of disturbing information about the Spahn Ranch preparing for a huge police raid to come the following week. He had become aware of Miss Lutesinger when she had run away from the Spahn Ranch on July 30 and Frank Retz had driven her to the police station."
[Credit to poster 'Jax' and  mansonblog contributor 'Brian G']

Bill Vance.

 It's possible he got pinched in one of those Family burglaries or auto thefts and the cops made a deal with him:  "You be an informant on the goings on at Spahn or you go back to prison!"   Then after all the arrests he just drops from sight.  I have never come across any interview with him, either by media, police, or prosecutors.

Gary Hinman
Charles Manson BBC Interview Part 4 8:30 mark
(re Hinman) "He was an informant for the government. He was playing all kinds of treacherous games that he shouldn't have been playing. See when you're in the underworld you got to be truthful. If you lie and you're faking and you're snitching and it catches up with you, it bites you... "

Danny DeCarlo

Bikers are notorious for their hatred of snitches, and everybody knows they operate under a strict 'no snitching' rule.  Though there are apparently exceptions, as this article from 1973 shows:   Feb, 1973
...(Sonny)Barger(of the Hells Angels) testified that over the past few years, he has frequently dealt with the Oakland police to turn over weapons or the locations of weapons to them in return for the release of jailed Angels. It was simple as that; the Angels paid off the police in guns they themselves had peddled to radicals or revolutionaries and in return the police let the Angels operate.

One of the more murkier aspects of the Manson case is where they got all the guns they collected in the spring of '69 and kept up at Spahns, until they were all seized by the Sheriff after the Aug 16 raid.  I think the conventional wisdom says Danny DeCarlo supplied most of them, and DeCarlo, of course, was a member of a biker gang.

So it is entirely possible, then, that the Straight Satans were playing the same game and had the same deal with the law as the Hells Angels did up in the Bay Area.  Supply the guns to the 'radicals' and then snitch them out to the Fuzz.

One could even take it a step further and say that it was 'suggested' to DeCarlo that he hang out with the Family and keep an eye on them, in return for certain favors to be granted to him or his club mates by the court system--like charges to be dropped in other matters.  Certainly it is true that DeCarlo never faced any charges for his activities at the ranch.

Karate Dave Lipsett

Covered in a previous thread:

 And from the "OO-ee-OO" file, we have

Field Marshall Cinque DeFreeze of the Symbionese Liberation Army

Who Ran The SLA? by Dick Russell
Ann Arbor Sun, January 22, 1976
(Donald) DeFreeze, as an informer for a special Public Disorder Intelligence Unit(of the LAPD), did not want for "useful" tasks. During the fall of 1969, police sources recall DeFreeze informing on the Charles Manson family concerning a planned arms burglary. He next surfaces in Cleveland on October 11...

Now the big question is, if they had an informant within the Family's ranks, why weren't they able to finger the Mansonoids for TLB long before they did?  Or prevent TLB by arresting Charlie and his minions for the murder of Gary Hinman or the attempted murder of Bernard Crowe?


Post-Barker arrests snitches:

One thing is certain-- during the trials, the information received from one or more informants was absolutely reliable:
Captain A. R. Stoyanoff, Homicide Bureau, advises:

On 12-2-70, information was received that the Manson Family were attempting to purchase or obtain hand grenades.

On 12-9-70, the Intelligence Bureau advised that hand grenades had been stolen from Camp Pendleton and were in the possession of the Manson Family (not confirmed).

On 12-14-70, information was received from an informant that Charles Manson had pulled a string attached to a number of hacksaw blades up through the window from the outside of the Hall of Justice. Information was relayed to the jail and hacksaw blades were recovered on approximately 12-17-70.

On 7-9-71, information was received that Charles Manson had bragged of having the telephone numbers and addresses of investigators, District Attorneys and jail deputies. On that same date, Deputy Stevens, Hall of Justice Jail, received a phone call at his residence from a person he believes to be a female member of the Manson Family.

On 7-14-71, information was received that Kenneth Como, MC/31, a Folsom Prison inmate serving life for robbery, was to be returned to Los Angeles County as a witness for the defense in the Shea murder trial. Further, that Como had been visited by the Manson Family and was a high escape risk.

On 7-22-71, Kenneth Como escaped from the 8th floor of the Old Hall of Records.

[They were warned he could escape.  And then he escapes.  Twice.   Hmmmm...]

On 8-15-71, information was received that Kenneth Como and members of the Manson Family did obtain guns from an unknown location to help free Charles Manson.

On 8-21-71, Kenneth Como, along with members of the Manson Family, robbed the Western Surplus Store in Hawthorne of 67 guns and ammunition and were subsequently arrested in a shoot out.

On 8-24-71, information was received that Judge Raymond Choate, Department 106, would receive a package containing a watch without hands signifying his time was running out.

On 9-3-71, Judge Choate received the package containing the watch with missing hands.

Some names:

Kenneth Como

All you need to know about Kenny-boy Como is that he is transferred from Folsom prison into the LA jails to testify in Charlie's Hinman/Shea trial, despite the fact he had no knowledge of Charlie and Family, nor the victims,  nor the crimes committed.  This did not cause the prosecuting attorney nor judge nor various judicial and prison officials to object.  So the whole transfer was obviously arranged by those who wanted to use Como to act as informant and provocateur.

The acid test was that Como, doing 20 to life for armed robbery in Folsom before he was transferred, gets out in 1981, doing 10 years.  For the two jailbreaks, the armed robbery, the shootout with cops, and two more subsequent attempts to break out of state prison, he got no extra time.  From a convict's standpoint, it was a pretty sweet deal.


This is the name of some guy who attaches himself to the Family during the TLB trial.  Some suspect he may have been an informant:

"beauders said...
   Hendrickson said that he believed "Kevin" was a police informant. "Kevin" started hanging with the Family due to the press coverage of Manson and the Family's commission of the murders and then up and disappears one day."


"To whom shall I speak and give warning That they may hear? Behold, their ears are closed And they cannot listen."
    --  Jeremiah 6:10


Doug Smith said...

You'd think that Robert Hendrickson would have a waiver on file with "Kevin's" personal IS and signature in his files. He was featured - quite visibly - in both docs.

Perhaps the Colonel can dig it out to verify he is for real.

He's so enigmatic/off the grid since the trials

brownrice said...

Great post, Starviego... much food for thought.

AustinAnn74 said...

Personally, I'm glad someone was flappin to the fuzz, otherwise those scumbags would've kept on murdering. They were not some misunderstood flower children just wanting to innocently be free in the desert with Charlie playing a fucking flute. They were a terrorist organization who enjoyed, well....terrorizing....Why they weren't stopped beforehand is beyond my understanding. Maybe the reason the Family got pinched and the raid happened is because the firemen were being threatened by armed, dusty Family members while out on those fire roads? The Family brought all the heat on themselves because of their nutjob leader....

Robert C said...

I'm glad you included Kevin at the end. I've always been curious about his level of involvement and fate (and a few others too like Kay Wallace).

AstroCreep said...

Plus, who knows how many of them blabbed bits and pieces during their numerous arrests-

I find it hard to believe that this many years after the crimes, that information about an undercover snitch/officer hasn’t been discovered. Mainly because the govt just isn’t very good at anything, especially keeping secrets. And btw, none of these cops had clearances- not that it makes any difference, but it does in regards to how secret information is compartmented.

We discussed this a while back- the fact that the Family had loads of contacts with the police. The police seemed to be there all of the time for numerous matters. Running license plates etc.

HellzBellz said...

".. somebody was watching every move he(Manson) made..."
--Preston Guillory, ex-LASO Deputy who participated in the Spahn Ranch raid

If they only DID that a week earlyer..... Cielo & Waverly wouldnt have happened. They SURELY would have followed a full loaded Car leaving Spahn.... at Night.

Peter said...

Oh, Snitches will be taken care of.

Logan said...

What about Handsome Chuck himself??? O________o I remember reading in Reflexion that Charlie told Lynette he knew they were going to get raided on the morning of the 16th. When I get home I'll look the quote up. Idk about yall but I really liked that book. Fromme actually has quite the talent for creative nonfiction imo, and she's led such an interesting life (though I guess there's a lot of things like willett she's probably very sketch about publicly writing about)

starviego said...

Manson Mythos said...
Susan Atkins and Ella Jo Bailey were apart of a drug ring that were being watched. ...Frank Salerno, who was head of the drug task force at that time confirmed that Spahn Ranch was being monitored for drug dealing and sent undercovers in to try and score dope.
Bill Vance... and Ella Jo were AT Hinman's house the day Charlie slashed him. They showed up with Bruce and Charlie...

You are making some interesting claims there. Can you back them up with sources?

Matthew Record said...

I always thought that it was interesting how Kitty ran away from the family and then snitched on them. After that, there she was on the street corner with the others. I am surprised that she didn't end up like Shorty.

Alwal79 said...

yeah I remember reading this. I think Charlie mentioned to Gypsy “ we’re being raided in the morning” then falls asleep. Interesting eh
Great book btw

Matthew Record said...

I also really enjoyed Lynette's book. Great creative writing. If you are looking for any new insight on the murders themselves there is none. She is very vague about that. Of course, I don't believe there is a statute of limitations for murder in California and she could be considered an accomplice if she said the wrong thing. I also would have loved it if the trial years were included in the book while she was camped out on the corner. Maybe that will be in the sequel!

Gorodish said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gorodish said...

Matthew Record said :

I always thought that it was interesting how Kitty ran away from the family and then snitched on them. After that, there she was on the street corner with the others. I am surprised that she didn't end up like Shorty.

Excellent point, Matthew. Kitty was a serious wild card. Like the above post says, she snuck away from the ranch a few days after the Hinman murder, made her way up the creek to the outlaw shack area to get further up the road out of sight of the ranch set so she could hitchhike away. She stumbled upon Frank Retz and the woman selling Retz the property he would soon live on. Retz took her to the police station, where Bill Gleason was more than happy to debrief her. Then, after providing police with some heavy info (the "Black Panther shooting", the threats to followers from Charlie, etc.) , she goes back to her parents ranch, locking her doors at home and not even answering phone calls from Bobby Beausoleil, whose child she was carrying. Then on August 15, she calls Spahn ranch, has Gypsy and Sadie come pick her up and bring her back to the ranch (probably to find out about Bobby), and gets snagged in the August 16th raid with the rest of them. She goes to Death Valley with them, is pregnant and miserable, and sneaks off with Stephanie Schram the night before the Michigan Loader raid, and is rescued by the raiding cops and eventually returned to her parents. Then there she is again in 1970, back again with the gang on the corner of Broadway and Temple, shaved head and X carving on her forehead. I'm guessing that most of the damning info she gave Gleason didn't come out until the Shea/Hinman trial almost a year later, as she was absent from Spahn during the TLB murders. She is definitely lucky, as she most likely would have been on the receiving end of a Tex Watson bayonet and buried either next to Shorty or out in Death Valley.

starviego said...

Manson Mythos said...
"There was an informant sent to the ranch the day of the Crowe shooting and they were there till the 10th."

Where do you get this stuff?

AustinAnn74 said...

I think Lynette Fromme's book is pure unintended fiction. She has believed all the bullshit for so long, she's accepted it as fact. If she never had issues with what Manson & the others did, I seriously question her sanity.

Rock N. Roll said...

Hey Manson Mythos, are you gonna answer where you get this stuff? Or are you just going to be snotty to AustinAnn74? Maybe you were the snitch!

Robert C said...

MM -- " Why are you even here, AustinAnn74? …. What you "think" means nothing. "

AustinAnn74 is here for the same reasons we all are … to discuss, debate and share information and our perspectives on the topics, especially the unknowns. That's what a blog is for.

AstroCreep said...

MM- I think AustinAnn is here for the same reason we all are- curious fascination with the case. Personally, I like Bugs and his ability to convict all these d-bags and believe THE KILLERS STORY and all of the witness testimony that supports the killer’s story. Bugs is often labeled a liar and fabricator of the HS motive but clearly THAT is BS. Far too many people came forward and independently told police, cellmates, etc long before Bugs was assigned the case.

When I (and others) have pointed this out, the usual response is to knock the credibility of the witnesses, Poston, Watkins, Jakobson, (and many more). It doesn’t really matter if you or others don’t find them credible, a jury did and sentenced the killers to death.

Yet, I’m completely open to hear any facts that support another motive. Problem is, nobody here can list any facts that support their theories, rather it’s a series of what ifs that aren’t supported or corroborated by any factual testimony, witness statements, recorded interviews, etc.

I’m all ears.

AustinAnn74 said...

MM, what kind of blog would it be if everyone had the exact, same opinion? Answer: boring.....In closing, I was invited by Matt & friends years ago to participate....Now, unless he kicks me out, I aint going nowhere, trick!

Matthew Record said...

Blogger AustinAnn74 said...

I think Lynette Fromme's book is pure unintended fiction. She has believed all the bullshit for so long, she's accepted it as fact. If she never had issues with what Manson & the others did, I seriously question her sanity

I really disagree. I don't find her stories of their travels through California, which is the majority of the book, to be fictional. Did you read the book? Nowhere in the book does she talk about believing anything about HS or anything remotely about the murders and their reasoning. She never talks about not having issues with what others did. To me, it was mostly about the good times before the Crowe shooting and the paranoia. I am sure there was more to what she knew than she shared but that is self preservation. She distanced herself from what was going on at the end by talking about taking care of George. However, in the documentary shortly after, she was a militant with a rifle and a knife..talking about taking care of snitches. Big contrast in how she portrayed herself in the book.

AustinAnn74 said...


Unknown said...

With any large group of thieves and drug addicts there's always going be informants.Kinda doubtful these guys warranted that much surveillance. Most of what we know they were involved in was petty local crime. I can't picture 24 hour surveillance for illegal dune buggies, small amounts of drugs, a stolen credit card etc.As another commentator said no one noticed car loads of killers leave Spahn 2 nights in a row. Unless they were involved in some heavy federal organized crimes I've never heard about I say there was no extreme surveillance. They didn't even know who Manson was when they stopped in the ranch after Hinman. They ID him as Chuck Summers.More likely police stopped in often investigating individuals. The raid always felt like a favor/training exercise. Everyone walked out with no charges even Decarlo who tried to shoot the cops fought for the gun with police during a raid. Na they shoot people for that.Manson knew they were getting raided. Probably because he was the informant and was told they needed training for large raid and he went along with it because LE owned him

Dan S said...

Im reading John Douglas's Into Darkness. He gives two paragraphs to manson in which he makes the assertion that the first night of murders was a power play by Watson and the second night was Charlie reasserting himself.
With a little bit more nuance this seems true to me. Back to your regular programming...

Unknown said...

Kinda off topic but not completely I've been reading as much as I can find on the Shea murder and I don't think the true story has ever been told. The official story is all over the place. These guys can't even get straight who was in the car. If Manson was there. Did he walk or was he in a second car? I'd never take up for Tex but in my heart I know he wasn't there. Tax has nothing to lose or gain by admitting to the murder of a basically homeless alcoholic. He's convicted and admits to killing rich talented young people. At the time has on death row. And we know he loves to let us know how big and powerful frykoski was but he he was just so much more of a man and caved his chest in with his stabbing punches
Now if he thought he was getting out I can see llying but even when he was on death row never owned this murder. Davis wasn't in the car the first 15 years everyone told the story than he was in the car. Plus he wasn't completely slaughtered like Watson's general style. Never any real specifics what Watson did before or after he just wasn't there. I wonder if he'd take a polygraph? I think at the time these others wanted to be part of the kill club so they bragged which is basicly what convicted them. Testimony. Watson was the guy to blame had screwed anyway a back then no body or witnesses I'm sure the lawyers thought they'd never convict. And worse case a murder like this in Cali would be 5-12 years. Truthfully I bet no one in Cali is still doing time for a murder of one person besides these idiots. I'm not a good investigator like some on here but if you really look into it I think it's plain to see these guys are going along with a story. Vance and Bailey were there but wait no I guess they weren't. Gypsy and Susan want in clean up duty and it was so early it was still dark but these guys claim they killed him in broad day light with the morning traffic just feet away. And on and on the story just isn't feasible. I have no idea who did it. But if I killed a dude I wouldn't have any trouble remembering if Davis was in the car or not. These guys know less about the murder than anyone.I almost think he was killed by someone we wouldn't think of. Someone probably got mad or thought they were protecting one of the girls and cracked him in the head with the wrench turning him into a brain damaged basket case that couldn't be left like that and someone finished him. If you really watch and listen to these guys in the early years there protecting someone or scared of someone. Manson claimed shorty got in a fight with a biker and never came back.. Or perhaps he got aggressive with a squeeky or a. Sandy type.For all we really know he could be been killed by. a fellow drunk fighting over the last beer. I don't care about Davis but you can clearly see he's not a killer no matter how bad some wanted him to be zodiac. Same with Grogan. Regardless these guys weren't the kill crew. Probably Vance Bailey etc did show up to help move this huge pile of dead weight.It would be tough to investigate this one but I bet Watson wasn't even present. They're covering for someone. Grogan got lucky because hes out. Bruce can't change the story after all these years telling parole another version. Davis has to have shitty lawyer dudes going to die in prison for being present when his friend cuts Hinman ear and for bragging about it. Trouble finds him. so he picks up a 2nd murder for supposedly watching another assault. Sure people died but legally I can't believe over 50 years for a lunatic buddy cut a guy that got killed a day latter and even if his version is true he wasn't really a participant in murder. Truthfully I'm surprised Davis was even prosecuted for murders and shocked he got convicted and will die in prison for basically being a spectator. I'm not a fan just he shouldn't have done 10 years for watching a man get assaulted

Dan S said...

Tex has always been taciturn, except to say things to look good for parole. I agree the story doesn't add up. Rubys testimony doesn't match the narrative and we know hoyts is way off. Back to MY off topic comment: does anyone give credence to master profiler's John Douglas 's analysis after his extensive interview with the soul himself?

starviego said...

Dan S said...
"...the first night of murders was a power play by Watson and the second night was Charlie reasserting himself."

So TLB was really about competition and jealousies between the two guys? I don't feel his analysis holds any weight.

starviego said...

Off Topic:
Check it out--One of Charlie's songs is featured in this TV show:
The Sick, Twisted Messages in “Chilling Adventures of Sabrina” ...

"The occult elite loves Charles Manson."

AstroCreep said...

Unknown said-

“Most of what we know they were involved in was petty local crime”

Um, GTA might not be a federal crime but is definitely not petty crime.

My belief is that the police had so many contacts with the family that most of what was happening there on the ranch was common knowledge to the police.

Dan S said...

The nuance is missing from j.d.'s analysis. Watson did it to impress after his cypher mind was filled with charlie's propaganda and the beausoleil situation. What i found interesting about the theory is the reason for the 2nd night. I guess we already knew charlie went out to show them "how to do it right", but that doesn't preclude he ordered them to do it the first night. I still think he never expected them to mass murder like you wouldn't expect some to jump off a bridge if you told them to. Basically tex called his bluff and the Waverly massacre was the result of Manson being put in the position of putting his money where his mouth is

Unknown said...

That's the best explanation I agree. Dozens of people living or hanging at Spahn that have run ins with law enforcement the " surveillance" kinda takes care of itself. GTA definitely not petty I just wonder if law enforcement would put all that surveillance in place over it. It's possible the auto ring was bigger than I understood. I've always wondered if they were using those tractor trailers to transport these " dune buggies"across state lines.Seems like constant work for 6-7 dune buggies.So possibly that was a much bigger operation. I've always wondered if the police did connect Hinman and Tate\ liabianca to the ranch and the raid was so they could later say " Look we've been onto them". It's all speculation on my part and things may have been different in California in the 60s. Today around my state you have to have a substantial on going criminal enterprise to warrant constant surveillance. Manson being basically a federal parolee at large could've just been hauled in and the ranch searched at any time anyway

Dan S said...

Rape too.

Dan S said...

Illegal guns (decarlo) really smacks of the Sonny barger/cops deal

Peter said...

Or walk all the way to Rio to get you a coconut. And yet, here we are.

Peter said...

Agreed. And eople who own car dealerships tend to have a certain amount of pull in the community and I would think particularly with the local police, the chief of which is probably an elected official.

brownrice said...

Dan S said...
...the first night of murders was a power play by Watson and the second night was Charlie reasserting himself.
With a little bit more nuance this seems true to me.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. Before Cielo drive, the males of the family seemed to me to be lurching irrevocably deeper & deeper into serious crime, egged on not just by Charlie (the experienced older criminal) but also by DeCarlo and the various biker elements hanging round the ranch. Beausoleil (in one of his many varying explanations of "what exactly went down") talked about feeling pressured by the Straight Satans to "be a man" in (allegedly) getting their money back from Hinman. In the same interview, he bemoaned his tough guy aspirations and basically admitted he was right out of his depth at the time.

Charlie for all his bluster had no real history of violent crime. He was a conman, a pimp and a blag-artist. At "best" he seemed capable of a big theatrical performance culminating in one quick violent move- cutting Hinman's ear for instance or shooting Lotsapoppa. He could play the heavy quite well but probably wasn't really capable of sustained violence (IMO). Tex on the other hand, was a big bloke and apparently a card-carrying psycho as well. At Cielo, he just cowboyed the joint... serious over-kill (no pun intended). Upon his return to the ranch (with gore-groupies like Sadie staring in wrapt awe at him), I can well imagine Charlie seeing the reins of control slipping from his grasp and feeling the need to re-assert his dominance and alpha-male position. Notice though that at the LaBianca's he once again used psychology and theatre to subdue poor Leno and his missus... and left the actual violence to Tex and the girls.

Robert C said...

brownrice said: " Charlie for all his bluster had no real history of violent crime. "

Actually he did have violent experiences long before the 'family'. He confessed he raped weaker people in prison and himself was done likewise by others. He was also often aggressive and outright violent toward the women in his flock too. In Lake's book she details being sodomized by Charlie after getting angry. And I feel comfortable presuming throughout his career outside of jail he did other violent things we don't know about. He was prison-witty and could control his violence but under the right circumstances I think he'd have no problem driving a knife right into you, brownrice, or anyone else for that matter and still sleep well at night.

bucpaul2812 said...

Gorodish said: "...Then there she is again in 1970, back again with the gang on the corner of Broadway and Temple, shaved head and X carving on her forehead..."

The thing is, if you look at the clip featured in the link below, Brenda, Sandy and Cappy appear to be almost in the throes of rapture while singing. In marked contrast, Kitty looks skittish, if not somewhat terrified. I get the impression she might have been charmed back into the fold and almost overnight regretted her decision but had no idea how to escape with the eyes of an already suspicious peer group firmly upon her.

Orwhut said...

I watched the video and got the feeling Kitty didn't know all of the words to the song.

beauders said...

Manson was scared Beausoleil was going to talk, so that may be why the Family never did anything to Lutesinger.

Unknown said...

It's all bull shit. Atkins in a drug ring is laughable. She couldn't keep her mouth shut. No drug ring would work with her. Not only that she'd just take 0ff with all the dope. Plus she'd bragged about over the years. Vance and Ella didn't go to Hinman same reason Susan was there she would've told on them from the start. Truthfully I can't understand why they involved her in the murders. Tex should have killed her honestly. I'm kinda surprised they didn't

Uknown said...

Decarlos gun collection wasn't anything special. I'm rural states almost every house has at least that collection