Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties
The Col recently was able to lay his hands on an ARC (advanced reading copy) of the above long awaited book (he mentions 20 years at least 100 times, in the part I have at least) by Tom O’Neill.
Before we start I should reference all my interactions with Tom over the last 20 years so I can allow the reader to decide what they will about where I cam coming from.
In 1999 a journalist named Anne Thompson knew I was an expert in all TLB matters and mentioned Tom was doing a piece on Hollywood ties to the murders. She suggested we talk. Back then we were working on our Manson movie that would be destroyed by the financial issues that occurred after 9/11. Tom and I met at my main hang (still today) El Compadre on Sunset for some flaming margaritas. Tom seemed nice and intelligent and reasonable. We shot the shit about TLB.
We shot the shit about TLB several other times after that.
As the internet grew and expanded and the TLB research base grew, the legend of the amazing ColScott grew as well. For reasons I never understood, Tom decided one day "out of a clear blue fucking sky" to doxx me to some people. Doxxing someone is shitty. Only shitty people do it. Tom O’Neill, unbeknownst to me, is a shitty person.
Tom and I would IM on occasion. Max Frost liked Tom. But Max Frost likes pretty much everybody. And he had not been doxxed by shitty person Tom O’Neill. When we communicated, he would be supercilious and I would be condescending.
Sometime in about 2009 he went on a TV show about TLB as an expert (literally having published nothing) and supported standard BUG lies, even going so far as to talk about a Karate school that Charlie ran for the Family that had me mocking him forever. Oh yeah and "unsolved murders." FFS
It is around this time that I learned that when trying to interview Col Tate’s widow (one of the 1000 interviews no doubt from below) he persisted after being told to desist and made her feel threatened. Since Col Tate married this woman AFTER Doris died she literally had no TLB connection, but hey, Tom gonna do Tom.
It was around this time that I received an email to the ONLY Official TLB Blog from Nancy Pitman wherein she talked about her interaction with Tom O’Neill- first she mentioned that he was contacting a movie producer named Brad Wyman to harass him about her involvement with his film although she was NOT involved. Then she wrote the following I quote verbatim "To say that Oneill is a "snob" or an "elitist" is rather generous. Oneill began with harassing my family and my elderly 90 year old parents.. I got his email address off one of the many "business cards" he left and asked him what he wanted. Here is a sample of what Tom Oneill sent me when he felt sure I lived in Bend, Oregon & I have cut and pasted directly from his email: "I will stay another day here and hope you change your mind and agree to meet, or at least speak with me over the phone. I think it will ultimately serve both of our best interests. If you choose not to, then I will have to take a different approach and contact your family members -- since they are referred to in these police interviews -- and vet the information with them. And if they won't speak to me, or if they don't have the answers, then I'll have no choice but to attempt to determine who are the people in your life now that you are close to and may have shared this information with, and then ask them." Then he went to the local newspaper in hopes they would pressure me to talk to him. Had I been working in Oregon he would have gone to my employer. I am sure that is the tactics he employed to ruin Steve's livelihood over in California. Can't get what he wants so he ruins someone's life or livelihood & actually manages to make it look (via you guys) like it was Steve's fault
So Tom is a dick, an unprofessional dick who doxxes people and harasses and threatens those who refuse to talk to him. By the way, I recall asking him about these events and his reply was chilling "I did what I had to do to get people to talk to me." So there’s that.
Sometime in 2015 ICM offered me the book to option. I never would have, but I wanted to read it. Tom had mentioned some stupid rooftop James Bond sounding meeting with Terry Melcher and I was looking for a laugh. But they didn’t have it. Tom stopped them anyway when he heard my name. Max Frost tells me Tom was being pressured to return the advance he was given by the publisher. Who knows why the book took 20 years? But I could guess that Tom is not a very good researcher and was trying to back into conclusions he had already come to.
One thing is for sure- his hatred for BUG is off the charts and he would have had a hard time getting any publisher to print this book with Bug alive. The beginning of the book is all BUG threatening his sorry ass.
Also around 2013 Tom O’Neill went mental about some old Tex Watson cassette tapes in which apparently nothing interesting happened. But yes he went mental, convinced there was a conspiracy to deny him a listen. Six years later the tapes are under lock and key and I do not care. Nothing has been done with him despite Tom's diaper rash.
I did notice that in his Medium article Tom considers Orca to be a good friend of his. Printing Bug’s alleged statement that Polanski filmed her sister’s rape may change that. I do hope Little Brown’s lawyers are prepared- Bug is dead, the conversation is not recorded so all you have is Tom O’Neill’s stunning revelation.
ONE WEIRD NOTE before we start our journey boys and girls: the Col likely got his first ARC in 1980 when he reviewed things for the Georgetown Hoya. Safe to say, 39 years later he has probably seen close to 2000 ARCS. HE HAS NEVER SEEN AN ARC that was the first 80 pages of the book only. Never. Since the purpose of an ARC is to gather early publicity what would be the point? They cannot review 1/6th of book can they? Yet this is what was sent out. Is it because the book isn’t finished yet? Or are they scared of reviews like this that point out the sloppiness of this epic? So sloppy that one of the pictures included of Charlie with Dennis Wilson is a fucking fotoshop collage?
Our Journey- Since I cannot review the book that doesn’t exist I have pulled passages that jumped out at me as troublesome and commented after them. I look forward to your insights in the comments.
It was a sunny day in February, 2006 and we were in the kitchen of his Pasadena home.
BUG invites Tom into his lair and shit is gonna get real
Among many other things, I had evidence in Vince’s own handwriting that one of his lead witnesses had lied under oath.
In this 80 page teaser we do not get to see what this evidence is. My current suspicion is that he wrote "Wrangle that bitch Linda to talk about the toilet in Sylmar better". Joking but who could have been forced to testify according to BUG’s whim more than Yana? Hell, he was controlling her on Larry King a few years ago.
I’d interviewed more than a thousand people by then.
Seriously if Tom interviewed MORE than a 1000 people by then I have to conclude that he was interviewing strangers at the Greyhound station who just got off the bus. I would have a very hard time to name 100 people in this case who might have information that matters in this case. And later he’s gonna whine how many people refused to talk to his needy ass.
I’ve never been a Manson apologist. I think he was every bit as evil as the media made him out to be.
Think. He still to this day believes the BUG. Karate Schools baby.
The point, as I saw it, was that an act of perjury called the whole motive for the murders into question.
Fucking BUG lied under oath about the newspaper coming in, you really are shocked he suborned perjury? REALLY?
One of them, Mary Neiswender of the Long Beach Press Telegram and Independant, told me that Vince had threatened her back in the eighties, when she was preparing an expose on him. He knew where her kids went to school, "and it would be very easy to plant narcotics in their lockers". Actually, I didn’t even need other sources-Vince himself had told me mere minutes ago that he had no compunction about hurting people to "exact justice or get revenge"
Snidely Whiplash step right up.
There are at least four versions of what happened that weekend in August, each with its own account of who stabbed whom, with which knives, who said what, who was standing where.
No there really are not.
More than anything, they lived according to the whims of their leader, the thirty-four year-old Charles Milles Manson, who had commanded them to take their trip that night.
Jesus this doesn’t look good. They lived according to Charlie’s WHIMS!
Watson scaled a pole to sever the phone lines to the house. He’d been here the before, and he knew where to find them right away.
Tom wants you to believe that having been to the house once before Tex knew the telephonic and electrical layout by heart. Think about that
At the top of the driveway they found Steven Parent, an eighteen-year-old who’d been visiting the caretaker in the guesthouse to sell him a clock radio.
Tom believes that Steven was selling clock radios to strangers at midnight in Benedict Canyon, rather than getting blow jobs. Tom is wrong.
Frykowski was coming off a ten-day mescaline trip at the time
Tom had a stopwatch and a clock
She peered into a second bedroom, where a man sat on the edge of a bed, talking to a pregnant woman who lay there in just her bra and underwear.
Tom doesn’t like the word panties nor the word blow job
On the bed with him was his ex-girlfriend, Sharon Tate, then twenty-six and eight months pregnant with her first child wearing only lingerie.
He repeats this within the same page- seems obsessed with Sharon’s undies.
Atkins had remained in the house with Tate, who was whimpering sitting on the floor still in only lingerie, and still bound by the neck to the dead body of her former lover Sebring.
Again with the panties hang up, third time in two pages. And if Jay is dead then of course he is former.
"Woman I have no Mercy for you" Atkins responded, locking her arm around Tate’s neck from behind.
I believe the word was "Bitch" and I believe there are multiple versions of who held whom.
With a welter of his followers
I tried three dictionaries and do not believe the word "welter" means what Tom thinks it means.
"He has no plans for release", one report said "as he has nowhere to go "
Tom be accurate – this is what Charlie said as he was leaving Terminal Island it is not from a report.
Melcher had flirted with the idea of recording Manson who had dreams of rock stardom, but he decided against it. Sometime in the spring before the murders, Manson had gone looking for Melcher at the house hoping to change his mind, but a friend of the tenants told him that Melcher didn’t live there. Manson didn’t like the guy’s brusque attitude. Consequently, the house on Cielo Drive came to represent the "establishment" that had rejected him.
There is so much inaccurate with this quote. Suffice to say, Melcher NEVER intended to record Charlie, was just humoring some of his major clients.
For a Family novitiate, the goal was to burn yourself out, to take so much LSD and listen to so much of Charlie’s music that you returned "to a purity and nothingness" resembling a new birth.
This goal was literally never mentioned ever by anyone.
Even my most reliable sources were shaky on the details. As for the unreliable sources, I kept reminding myself that many of them were washed-up Hollywood personalities, often in their dotage.
One thing that resonates throughout the excerpt is Tom’s reliance on "sources." He is like other bad journalists I have met throughout my career- if you speak to him then you are at least credible. If you don’t you have something to hide. He seriously reprints nonsense in this book so far that is mind boggling. But hey they spoke to him on the record!
Were the police aware of Manson’s crimes much earlier than it seemed-had they delayed arresting the family to protect the victims, or Melcher and his circle, from scrutiny?
The problem with any conspiracy is that it is so unlikely that you can get 2 people to agree on anything, much less 20 plus. Look at the Russiagate mess now. Tom is wondering if the police delayed arresting Manson to appease a music producer, Doris Day’s son. The answer, obviously is that Tom has gone deep in the rabbit hole
Almost right away, I felt the kind of cognitive dissonance that followed me through my reporting. I’d meet my sources at a fancy restaurant of their choice-in this case, Le Petit Four, a sunny sidewalk cafe in Beverly Hills-and within minutes, as the conversation turned towards violence the plush setting would feel totally incongruous.
Le Petit Four, which has amazing onion soup, is over a mile outside Beverly Hills. But hey, as above, fuck facts.
In 1999, apparently, that fear was still alive and well, at least among Hollywood’s A-list, many of whom declined to speak to me, even though thirty years had passed. I was rebuffed by the intimates of the Tate Polanski, and Sebring-sometimes with vehemence sometimes with tersely worded emails or phone calls. "No interest.’ "Doesn’t want to be involved". Or just one word: "No". Warren Beatty and Jane Fonda said no. Jack Nicholson and Dennis Hopper, both reputedly close to Tate and Polanski: no, no. Candice Bergen, Terry Melcher’s girlfriend at the time of the murders, said no, too-as did David Geffen, Mia Farrow, and Anjelica Huston, among others.
"Hi I am a reporter for a puff piece Film magazine and I am getting obsessed with the murder of someone you knew (at least in passing) WHY won’t you talk to me?" I mean what the fuck, the entitlement of this guy.
Plus, by Bugliosi's own account, Manson sent his followers to the Cielo house knowing full well that Melcher did not live there anymore.
Around here Tom starts to get confused. Because either BUG is a dirty rat liar or he isn’t. Either Manson sent everyone. Or he didn’t. Cannot make up his foul mind.
When he’d joined the case, the detectives told him they’d recovered some videotape in the loft at the house on Cielo Drive. The footage, clearly filmed by Polanski, depicted Sharon Tate being forced to have sex with two men. Bugliosi never saw the tape, but he told the detectives, "put it back where you found it. Roman suffered enough. There’s nothing to gain. All it's going to do is hurt her memory and hurt him. They’re both victims"
Tom quotes BUG and starts to attack the victims here. I know Orca reads this and doesn’t like me anymore than I like her but I hope she sends this to Roman. His lawsuit against Vanity Fair was won and this is worse- "New Book Claims Polanski filmed his wife being raped for his own jollies." What has this got to do with motive? Does anyone believe this shit?
That meant that Polanski could walk all over her. One friend who called him "one of the most evil people I ever met," said that he had smashed Sharon’s face into a mirror, and on another occasion forced her to watch a recording of him having sex with another woman. He cheated on her constantly and made sure she knew about it.
And more victim bashing. Polanski cheated and his wife deserved to be stabbed to death then?
"He would throw a brick in the pool and watch my dog dive for it and try to retrieve it . He stood there laughing. The dog wouldn’t give up."
Oh fuck Roman was mean to Joanna Pettet’s dog! That makes him....what exactly?
So what story do you want to tell? The one about this little prick who left his wife alone... with Jay Sebring and Gibby and Voytek, these wankers, these four tragic losers, or do you want to talk about a poor kid, Roman Polanski?"
I met Bill Tennant once. It was an odd experience back in 1988 and I will share the story with anyone in person if asked. But his alleged quote above doesn’t factor into the trauma that haunted Bill his whole life. It is just more blame the victim bullshit.
So, before a crowd of onlookers, they lowered Doyle’s pants, flogged him and anally raped him.
Tom, obsessed with panties, now spends pages tracking down the possible rape of a drug dealer who did NOT kill these people so who care?
In short, he told the LAPD’s Lieutenant Earl Deemer that he didn’t remember being raped, but he couldn’t be sure; it might’ve happened anyway. He recalled going over to see Frykowski at the Cielo house on the night in question, sometime in early July.
If an ass rape happens in the forest and no one remembers it did it even happen?
In another LAPD officer’s account of that interview, Doyle puts it even more frankly; "i was so freaked out on drugs I wouldn’t know if they’d fucked me or not"
He was also so strung out on drugs he doesn’t know if Stoner Van Houten drew Sharpie dicks on his face but it COULD have happened.
He added that Bugliosi was "an asshole" who’d never interviewed him or Billy. "Vincent Bugliosi knows to keep his mouth shut. I’d’ve got him killed. I didn’t tell him that-I didn’t have to".
Quoting elderly gangster drug dealers – must be one of the 1000 plus interviews
Contradicting what he’d told me on the phone, he said that Frykowski had sold MDA, but only to close friends.
Define close, Tom
Doyle believed that Polanski and Frykowski were Polish spies the former subverting American democracy with his decadent film.
Yes, do go on, you keep quoting this shithead lunatic you must have a reason.
"The community has looked at this as a settled thing until you started talking to us"
The community is Springfield and this guy is Grampa and next we buy a monorail!
Then, after the murders, Little Joe got a call from General Charlie Baron, a casino executive and mobster who told him, "Don’t worry, Little Joe, you’re going to be all right." He presumed that the murders had been a drug deal gone wrong, and that Jay and Frykowski had been targeted.
Even those on the Ponderosa had to be reassured.
"Do you think he sold drugs?" I asked , aware that Frykowski had possibly been doing the same.
"It wouldn’t surprise me."
Here we blame Sebring as if he had violent death coming. Hey Tom, it wouldn’t surprise this shithead if Sebring used to finger his own butthole too.
(this sequence is hilarious as Tom gets the above quotes out of a Beverly Hills barber over the course of MONTHS, Joe Torrenuvea. He literally keeps going to get haircuts to ask him question that denigrate Sebring)
Sebring’s problem had multiplied throughout the sixties. He’d clash with other barbers who wanted to unionize. In 1963, a group of his stylists had defected, en masse, to start their own business. At other times he’d had to hire bodyguards because some guys had come into the shop and "roughed up" several employees, Torrenueva said, for reasons that were never shared with him. Sebring carried a gun and "he shot someone once who came to his house and was giving his father a rough time at the door."
You see where we are? Random vague quotes from fucking barbers are not evidence of anything. Yet here we are, spreading shit about a DEAD VICTIM.
Which meant that in addition to drug dealers and Hollywood’s seedier hangers-on, I had to account for the mobsters, ex-military figures, intelligence agents in my reporting. I was already worried about wandering into the weeds-now I risked veering off the map entirely.
That happened 50 pages ago...
TO BE CLEAR- BUG was a liar, philanderer, horrible human being. Bug bashing is cool, we can't have enough of it. But Tom, sloppy facts are throughout this. Manson is not 5'2'. They did not drive a Ford Falcon the nights of the killings. Bug was not 32 during the trial. And that fotoshop is terrible.
You need an editor after 20 years, old man. Send me the book and MAYBE with the help of real researchers on the Blog we can spare your publisher from too many legal actions.
You have my email. Operators are standing by
Great article, Col.
Wow, so THIS is supposed to be the manson book we`ve all been waiting for?? THIS is the one that's going to reveal the TRUE motive(s) behind the TLB murders??!? To say that the above excerpt is a major disappointment would be a monumental understatement. I guess we are all going to have to wait ANOTHER fifty years (at least) before we get a book that will actually present some of the still-hidden truths about this whole story.
"Hi I am a reporter for a puff piece Film magazine and I am getting obsessed with the murder of someone you knew (at least in passing) WHY won’t you talk to me?"
I'm sorry, not enough years have passed.
This is Col in rare form lol. I would rather read Col talk about the book than read the book itself...
I live about 20 min from where the actual
Events of Bully took place. That's was a really good movie!!
It's been awhile and I really wish to stay out of the fray but let me share a very strong opinion on...
There won't be any books or anything else which reveals long held secrets. That time has come and gone I think...
Hendrickson. Manson. Bugs. All gone. The other killers are dying and nobody believed any of their several versions anyway.
As time goes by and any relevant players pass on with age- who is still left that would know anything who you could trust???
I feel fairly confident we know what we are going to know.
What we get now is speculation rumors and late in life attempts at money grabs. Which is why I hope for nothing more from the Tarantino film than...
A really good movie. 😉
St- you’re right and at this point too, none of the information that could possibly be gleaned would be corroborated by anyone who hasn’t already lied 1000 times before. So it’s pointless.
Col- having been offered a book deal, I know that manuscripts have a legal review prior to release and many changes are made as to avoid litigation- this would appear to still be in the works and not yet for public consumption? Or is this 80 page pre-read intended to serve as a media release? Or do you not know?
this was an 8o Page ARC intended for review
Yikes- I can’t imagine any real publisher being onboard with that.
I got one too- but it only says "Chaos" and uncorrected manuscript pages, material from this copy should not be quoted or used without first checking with the publisher, as some of this material may not appear in the finished book.
I cannot figure out how to post images of it.....
Can someone help me?
AC- this is a very real publisher
Cats (if you are done being mean to me) - My 80 PP does not say any of that
imgur sounds like a noise my stomach would make after having margaritas and dinner at El Coyote
(Still no clue how to post pics)
And I misspoke. My first page looks like yours but the second page says what I posted.
Does that work?
To me the cup is still half full and there's plenty of opportunity to engage with people in the know. Of course they all initially (and carefully) worked their story to their favor (lies) but with Manson gone and that pressure aspect gone there could be opportunity here if people don't wait too long. What we need are some younger avid investigative enthusiasts who graduated from charm school to get out there, locate and interview. Hell, even I know where most of the remaining main players are.
Yeah,I won't be running out to read this book when and if it comes out for real. Sounds likes another rehashing and over thinking retelling of what we already know. Or maybe some new stories with nothing to back it up. I did really enjoy Diane Lakes book and Lynette's book. They were both different sides of things going on in parallel to each other.
Cats, it works! Is your copy the whole book or just the 89 pages that The Col received?
What is your opinion?
Mine does not have those notices anywhere and the back page is some babbling raves for the book
It probably is the same that the Col received.
My opinion is that it will be worth the read. From what I can gather it starts out as the standard narrative but then follows the journey of truth finding that ends up (hopefully) in a place so far from that beginning point.
To write a book off at this juncture because of pages that may not be in their final form seems...can’t come up with the word at this moment.
And Col, I hope you corrected Nancy when she thought O’Neill outed Steve cuz I think it was Bret on his site??? And no I am not being mean to you(I just saw your message on the other thread) I just wanted to know why you thought that about BD. Much love.
Col Scott..babbling raves?? From who cuz mine doesn’t have that?
Cats - you know, the usual back cover stuff, maybe not raves my bad. Glad you are not mad at me. Phew. The Nancy email is many years old but yes I did.
Here's what I can say about your generous position- the last batshit crazy/insane/lying horsehit book I read was years ago called BLACK DAHLIA AVENGER. This seriously unwell ex cop is convinced that his dead daddy is every famous killer in the world between 1940 and like 1990. But the crucial point is he starts the book reprinting 2 pictures of the Dahlia that he says he found in daddy's possessions. Except they are NOT The Dahlia. So from the initial premise the book has no foundation. Just noise.
Chaos is predicated that unknown journalist Tom O'Neill is the only person who could solve the mystery. But he waited till everyone he quoted was dead. You are right- the book could somehow end up being great. Since the premise of the book is wildly flawed though I cannot believe this
I read those Dahlia books too. Also, for even more batshit crazy have you read John Cameron’s book on Ed Edwards? Another cop (I think) flying down the rails on pinning all great known crimes (even the solved ones) on Edwards.
Points taken. But I read everything, even batshit crazy stuff, because perhaps they hold a portion of the truth that when added to others forms a whole.
Or sometimes batshit crazy is just that.
And are we sure it is O’Neill’s premise or a premise put out by publishers to sell books?
And who are the reviews from? If two plus two equals four, your mention of Dahlia brings me to the glowing remarks on it by Kay. So is Kay one of the Chaos reviews?
No I need to grab my copy and look.
Kay and Ellroy both regret endorses BDA
I’m sure they really do. Please grab your copy for I am really interested.
Alas, there is Kay- LOL. Thanks Doug.
From Doug's link:
Featuring hundreds of new interviews and dozens of never-before-seen documents from the LAPD, the FBI, and the CIA, CHAOS mounts an argument that could be, according to Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Steven Kay, strong enough to overturn the verdicts on the Manson murders. In those two dark nights in Los Angeles, O'Neill finds the story of California in the sixties: when charlatans mixed with prodigies, free love was as possible as brainwashing, and utopia-or dystopia-was just an acid trip away.
Yeah beat me to it- BUT TO BE CLEAR O'Neill is fudging here as well- that is an alleged quote from Kay to O'Neill not a book blurb
Ok- I don't think I said it was a book blurb- it is from an Amazon description. The book back cover stuff, you said they were on the back of your copy- first as raves, but then as typical back of book stuff..you said Kay was not on the back of your pages as a blurb or whatnot.
You said you needed to grab your copy and look at the back page for the stuff. Did you get a chance to grab your pages and look for those? If so, I believe that it could be cleared up by saying what is on the back.
Also, outside of the Amazon link, it is on my page 10 of the pages. Does that match yours?
Hi catscradle77!! I just want to say I really really miss your website, I was a very frequent visitor when it was still up. Any chance whatsoever that you might get that site up again one of these days? Do you at least still have all the primary source documents stored somewhere? IMO yours was, without a doubt, THE best site on the web by far regarding all things TLB. I hope you are doing well these days. ��
Cat- MY copy is not the same as yours I do not think
SRR- it was the best- Cats got tired of robbery and turned it in. She offered it to me at one point (as did the lamented Bret) but there are too many tourists on this subject nowadays
Thanks SixtiesRockRules. I still have all the documents and have added more to my collection just not in a public way. I have everything built for the site, but I really haven't felt any inclination to release it. It is what it is and maybe someday, or maybe not. I am doing fabulous and I hope you are too.
Col- they may not be the same, but I am really wanting to know who blurbed on the back of your copy. (somehow that doesn't sound right). And, I haven't spewed coffee through my nose in a great while but your perfect use of lamented (something that ceased to exist) and tourists (for which I am not being a kiosk) produced a much needed spew of epic proportion.
So, please share who blurbed.
NANCY: "Then he went to the local newspaper in hopes they would pressure me to talk to him. Had I been working in Oregon he would have gone to my employer. I am sure that is the tactics he employed to ruin Steve's livelihood over in California."
Did you teach Tom or did you learn such cute tactics from him ?
"A ten year old post that Bret did that I then expanded on that led to me getting a threatening letter from Clem's lawyer......"
"Repeat after me - Adam Gabriel is a convicted sex offender who frequently performs in front of children."
Tom is wondering if the police delayed arresting Manson to appease a music producer, Doris Day’s son. The answer, obviously is that Tom has gone deep in the rabbit hole
"When BUG took over and started the lying he started spinning shit away from Melcher and Wilson et al. Protecting the celebrities."
Tell me it ain't so, Col, tell me it ain't so ! 😱
Tom O wrote...
Among many other things, I had evidence in Vince’s own handwriting that one of his lead witnesses had lied under oath
It's hard to work out who would be the more stupid here, Bugliosi for actually writing such a thing or us for believing it.
But when push comes to shove, all I say is bring on the evidence !
Catscradle77...Do you at least still have all the primary source documents stored somewhere?
Cats, being somewhat ignorant of these things, does it bring about the same hassles for you if you have it up just for archive purposes with all the threads, comments and documents as they were when you came off air, so to speak ? There was so much good food for thought and the ones that are left on Wayback Machine don't always cover each page and miss out about a year.
I would expect the evidence to be in the book and in the notes. From my pages, it is said that there were tape recorders involved in the Bugliosi's house. (I believe the Col said on the front page that conversations were not recorded. Probably due to our different copy). So I am leaning toward believing that the evidence is in the book.
Probably wouldn't cause issues for archival purposes but what am I exactly paying for? For many years running the site cost a lot of money, between getting transcripts, a host, a forum platform, server space etc. And when I finally had a donate to help button, all I got was grief like I was making some kind of profit. LOL. So, it is all stored and I added stuff too, but I have not published it, and I am unsure if I ever will. I can really live without the stress that the whole thing caused.
I can dig that.
Col. Great article. As always you cut through the proverbial BS and called it as you saw it. I also couldn't agree more with you about that BDA Book, I actually wasted my hard earned money on the multiple CD Audio version as part of my Zodiac research. Still shaking my head over his assertions. As for anything new to learn about T-LB, there's only two people left alive that know the whole Truth about what happened inside Cielo and Pat ain't gonna jeopardize her chance of getting a date, and Tex is trying too hard to convince everyone that he wouldn't harm a fly that I think he's incapable of telling the truth about those nights. Just my opinion. Back Lurking.
Grim you ignorant slut- you are not making sense. I can help you if you speak the english
Grim you ignorant slut- you are not making sense
You have a tendency to lambast others for things you yourself do. Makes sense to me.
I can help you if you speak the english
That's great English for you to help me with ~ where's your capital E ?
Fucking BUG lied under oath about the newspaper coming in, you really are shocked he suborned perjury? REALLY?.....Tom believes that Steven was selling clock radios to strangers at midnight in Benedict Canyon, rather than getting blow jobs. Tom is wrong.....But Tom, sloppy facts are throughout this
Well Col, he's obviously learned from the best.
Tom be accurate
Physician, heal yourself. If you're going to kick naughty Tom for inaccuracy, you cannot afford to be the same.
It is possible to critique without be insulting. You might consider taking a critical writing course.
I guess that's a no on the requested blurb?
All that is running through my head is the Col saying "No blurb for you!" in a Seinfeld Soup Nazi accent...
Cast- I sent the book back- my scan does not have the back page. I am asking. If I get it I will provide. Not sure I care as much as you
You like any attention. It makes your life seem valuable.
Whoops I have to correct myself so I deleted my above posting. Sorry. I really need to look closer.
Thank you so very much for the effort you put into getting this. I appreciate it greatly. I know that you have many more important things to do that get this for me.
Turns out, mine has this page but somehow it didn't register for I was having a dingdong moment and I apologize in having you go through so much trouble.
I was stuck on the blurb thing and in my head (crazy place) this wasn't anything that was blurby to me.
It also says uncorrected proof on it, so maybe we have the same thing after all.
Once again I apologize for the trouble.
Thank you again for your valiant efforts on my behalf.
Is Bully the movie about the punk rapist abuser Bobby who IMO. Got what he had coming to him in the Florida Everglades
If so I totally agree St. A dam good movie
Is Bully the movie about the punk rapist abuser Bobby who IMO. Got what he had coming to him in the Florida Everglades
If so I totally agree St. A dam good movie
Thought this was interesting given our ongoing dispute over culpability. Words matter.
"More generally, the court pointed out that it's not that unusual for people to be convicted of murder or manslaughter based solely on their words."
You like any attention. It makes your life seem valuable
Oh, go chew your lengthy corn and tell it to Mario with your mouth full ! 😉
It is possible to critique without be insulting
Not always as entertaining though.
Wow, so THIS is supposed to be the manson book we`ve all been waiting for??
I have to say, "Death To Pigs" and "Myth & Reality Of An Outlaw Shaman" were the last books on the topic that I really looked forward to nabbing.
Another non sequitur: i posted my reggae song with the liner notes from Lie as the lyrics https://moangae.bandcamp.com/releases
Off topic. An e-mail today from Bobby:
I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. https://www.change.org/p/california-governor-parole-for-robert-beausoleil-support-the-panel-s-recommendation Ordinarily I don't hold much with this sort of thing. Online petitions are too often instruments of internet trolls looking to gang up and beat a person down with clicks and petty judgements. The agency who started this one seems to have their hearts in the right place. I don't know them but I'm grateful for this expression of support. Don't know how effective this approach may be, or even if anything more than a little patience is needed for a favorable outcome in this case, but you gotta wonder why forgiveness is so rare in this world when it is so powerful. Righteous good intentions deserve to be honored when we encounter them.
And another from him that came in last week:
To everyone who has sent me congrats and kind words of support in response to news of recent developments in my life, my deepest thanks. As you might imagine, things are a mite overwhelming for me at this time. Lots to do to make sure that I'm as prepared as possible for making the transition. There's just no way I can manage writing individual responses to everyone who has written, at least not right away ...
Many are asking what my plans are once released. To a reasonable extent I am leaving my options open, but I have some solid prospects and some plans are fairly locked in. Initially upon release I will be staying in a transitional (halfway) house. This is a temporary condition designed to help folks getting out of prison get their feet on the ground and get their bearings for making a successful parole. As soon as conditions allow I will be in my own place because, man, I gotta get a dog. I've got a couple of good job offers from film and television production companies for immediate employment. The decades of effort in developing skills as a multimedia arts specialist in my prison gigs turned out to be a pretty good investment. Of course, playing music will always be an important part of my life, and I suspect some concert performances are in my future. I have been looking forward to playing with my many musician friends in the free world. I feel a new day dawning. The light peels back the dark.
Im fine with Booby getting out and feel hes paid his debt and deserves this chance.
But,you know who else enjoyed playing music?
Lynn, Bobby is delusional. Has he not noticed that even though Bruce Davis has been granted parole at least five times and Leslie Van Houten three times, the two are still not out of prison?
Unless I am missing something- there are no signatures on that above mentioned petition.
DebS- nah he isn't delusional. He is a narcissist and because he is so special how things worked for others (or didn't work out as the case has it)really doesn't fit in his world. He doesn't know how he feels about said link, but shoots it out to his email base of supporters. He then rattles on about the decades of skills he had time to acquire in prison got him these great job offers- betcha there are plenty of people on the outside who have much more talent and have never had the opportunity or time to showcase it because they had bills to pay and life to deal with.
I really don't give a rats ass if he gets out, but I am sure Gary Hinman would have liked to take his sojourn to Japan too.
I agree with Cat. Several years ago i corresponded with Bobby. He was always charming, calculated and would steer conversations to make him look good. He definitely is a narcissist. I don't email with him now, but find that I am on his email list.
The reality is - Bobby has undeniable musical ability. Be it to everyone's liking or not - he does have musical skills. And, people WILL hire him to provide soundtracks or w/h/y. Especially those in the alternative or, so-called "outlaw" or, niche areas of film. And, with the opportunity to create revenue streams online - he has the savvy to exploit these revenue streams.
Not everyone sees him as the majority of us here do. The only thing that seems kinda risky for him to do (in my mind) are live gigs. This is an area where his ego/narcissistic grandiosity may see him fall - he would be prone to stalkers, lunatics, fame whores or, even an exceptionally gifted long range rifleman.
Maybe in the end, his ego does him in.
I really doubt Newsom is going to let any Manson related people---whether they claim it or not---out as one day he will be President and he doesn't need anything like this in his background.
Bobby has a better chance of being President.
I understand the fears politicians may have of being the one to let one of the 'Manson Family' out but I really think most of it is overreaction. I don't think I would know one person who even knew who Bobby Beausoleil was -- or Bruce Davis or even Leslie. With so much emphasis on prison reform I truly think, most of the people I know around my age (late 20s/early 30s) would be more outraged over the parole system and the governor's ability to continuously over turn the decision. I may be totally off base but I do know for a fact that very few people even know who any of the Family Members are and wouldn't blink an eye at their release. I don't think it would hurt any politician's Presidential chances with my age demographic that was already going to vote for them, especially considering the partisan war we seem to live in lately. I'm sure it's different for those who grew up in that era and lived through the horror and maybe it's different in areas more local to California (I'm on the east coast) but I don't really see this huge backlash like these Governor's seem to fear.
It's about the spin their opponents would put on it
Dan S, I totally understand that and I'm sure the opposition would have a field day with it but I still don't think it would really hurt them within their own voting party. I could be totally wrong, I just don't see a Governor releasing an inmate after 50 years who was paroled not by him, but the parole board really hurting them. And even nationally I'm sure it could be a talking point but in the grand scheme of things I don't even really see that making much of a difference. I could be totally off base, though.
Dani_P, you may be right that it wouldn't make that much of a difference but it wouldn't have to. With the country divided almost 50-50, even a very small shift could be significant.
And the Manson Family IS emotive enough to affect some people.
Dani P with your generation it probably wouldn't matter but all the generations before your's it does matter. No one running for President would want their opponent bring out that they released a Manson Family murderer. These murders certainly changed California, if not the whole country. I was five when the murders happened and I even knew at that young age what had happened in Portland, Oregon. My family moved to the Bay Area when I was six and one of my first memories is seeing newspapers with Manson on the cover. Dani P. why do you think Jerry Brown wouldn't let any of them out when the parole board said they were ready? I don't see Newsom as being any different than Jerry Brown. If anything I think that Newsom would be less likely to let any of them out as one day he will run for President. Maybe when your generation is in their fifties it won't matter but by then they will all be dead and it won't matter. Personally I would let Van Houten and possibly even Krenwinkel out in their 70's. After seeing the condition Atkins was in at her final parole hearing I realize it would not harm anyone to let her out except the victims families and aren't they the ones that really matter. So I have mixed feelings. My heart would have let Atkins out but my mind, plus being a member of a family that had a member murdered, i know what it did to my father to have his younger brother shot to death in an alley in Las Vegas in the 90's and to have it never solved.
Dani- practice your thinking then apply to come back. You don't want to end up like Grimmy
She could do worse ! 😉
Per Animal House- "Fat drunk and stupid" how can she do worse?
She could be you.
Monty Yo~ho~ho !
Great post. I miss your writing.
U want to read an excellent book and get the truth - read Bugliosi's book, Helter Skelter. Every book after it stole bits and pieces from it, even QT for his movie. It's the Bible. Bugliosi had integrity and was a very compassionate man. U will find what u seek in HS.
*Yawns in the general direction of Unknown.
read Bugliosi's book, Helter Skelter. Every book after it stole bits and pieces from it, even QT for his movie
You'd be surprised just how much from Helter Skelter appeared in books that came before it. I certainly was.
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