Monday, January 31, 2022

Katie Is Eligible For Parole In 2022 - A Look Back

Patricia Krenwinkel has been down since before I was born. 

The third member of the Manson Family even if she thought she was the first for a few days, Pat met Charlie in Manhattan Beach in 1967 at the apartment of a friend Charlie shared with Pat's older half-sister. Lynette Fromme mentions the same former TI inmate amigo of Charlie early in her book. Fromme says Bill had surfboard feet and unwelcoming eyes or something similar. I'd like to know more about Bill if you've researched him already.

A quick summary of Pat's story is life was sad from the time she hit double digits. She was lonely, met Charlie, decided to take off with him, and it was a terrible decision. Pat turns seventy-five this year and has never been in trouble in prison since her incarceration more than half a century ago. She is the longest serving female inmate in the California penal system. In certain Internet circles, Krenwinkel is the personification of evil. 

Inmate Krenwinkel is not a threat to any of us yet we are taxed to keep ourselves safe from her. There's no way can we allow her to live out her years in a nursing home or assisted living facility on her own dime? Must the point be made until their hearts stop beating? 

LVH was a legal adult for less than a year when she committed her crime. A baby. She remains in prison in early 2022.  

But that's for another time. This is Pat's post. June 2017 was the last time she sat in front of political appointees who rotate through the story every three years in extended guest star roles. The appointees do this thing where certain aging inmates are granted freedom in a season's penultimate episode only to have the governor swoop in during the finale and nix the release. 

Pat's 2017 parole hearing was a continuation of the December 2016 hearing that paused when the Board adjourned and spent half a year researching whether she was a victim of Charles Manson. A highlight from this split-season occurs when Deb Tate takes a moment to make the hearing(s) about herself and announces Paul Tate hit her. Deb escaped Col Paul. Pat should've escaped Chuck Summers. 

Krenwinkel's fifteenth parole hearing takes place this year.

Thanks as always to almighty for providing today's discussion materials. In addition to 2016 and 2017, Krenwinkel's 1978, 2004, and 2011 parole hearings are available there for download. I also included screen caps from a Word doc of Pat's 1988 hearing below.   

What a pickle. Krenwinkel was sixty-nine in late June 2017 when the parole board said go kick rocks for another half decade. First, Charles Manson dies in prison that November. Then, Barbara Hoyt passes in December on Katie's seventieth birthday. That must've hit like a Mack truck behind Katie's locked steel door. 

LVH was prettier. Sadie stole the show. They all sang in the hallway. The Times chronicled Manson's self-destructive courtroom behavior the day Charlie claimed Judge Older was biased. A fiction writer could not have created a better surname for a judge in this trial. 

The New York Times 
October 7, 1970 

LOS ANGELES, Oct. 7— Charles M. Manson led his three women co-defendants in another revolt in their murder trial today.

Brought into court for the first time since he tried to attack the judge on Monday, Manson stood defiantly at the defense table, his long hair swaying as he talked, and angrily accused Judge Charles H. Older of being “emotionally involved” in trying to see him convicted.

Manson, accused of planning a series of murders for his hippie “family” to carry out, was asked by Judge Older if he was willing to behave “in a proper manner” if allowed back in the courtroom.

“Proper?” asked Manson, folding his arms across his chest. He began to accuse the judge of not giving him a fair trial. The judge interrupted Manson. “Just answer the question,” the judge said. “Yes or no.”

“You want to hear my answer?” asked Manson. “If you'd be as detached as you're supposed to be, not be emotionally involved, and do your job as you're supposed to... I can't accept anything you've done. I can't accept the past for the future.”

“Remove Mr. Manson from the courtroom,” said the judge.

As Manson was being taken away by a deputy sheriff, the judge questioned the three women defendants—Susan Denise Atkins, 21 years old, Patricia Krenwinkel, 21, and Leslie Van Houten, 20.

Miss Atkins said in reply to the judge:

“You are not my judge. You are not my God. You may be these people's God. You're not mine.”

As Miss Atkins was led away, Miss Krenwinkel rose and told the judge:

“I'll judge myself. You don't speak my words. You are taking yourself to destruction. I do not accept this courtroom.”

Miss Van Houten silently shook her head when Judge Older asked her if she was willing to abide by the court's rulings.

“You are no longer my father,” she said.


Oh, Lulu. Did you know Judge Older and his wife raised three girls? Any parents reading this ever had multiple teenage daughters living at home with them at the same time? Anybody watch their sisters fight with their parents growing up? Dare I ask if any of us ever told a parent we wish we had other parents? 

Take a gander at Older's military record. Think he played games? Add four fools and a pencil to Older's eighteen kills.  

"Clang bang clang," snarled the handsome SoCal judge. "You put on quite a show. I sentence each of you to fry like bacon. Get your g-damned smart-mouthed pigtails outta my courtroom." 

Those might not be actual quotes.

Yunnanyi, China. Chuck Older is awarded the Fifth Class Order of the Cloud and Banner, and the Star-Wing Metal. Behind him is a P-40 Tomahawk. The photo is dated June 6, 1942. 

Ronald Reagan appointed Older to the bench in 1967. The former US President is on the right in this photo from the Reagan Library. 

Reagan as George Gipp teaching the boys in South Bend how to go long.  

Power hates a vacuum. Clowning Reagan's ghost and what he represented is pain-free today. Not so much back then. Reagan and company had made their bones and were enjoying their rewards. The only place anyone was going was over to Buck Compton's annual steak fry. Revolution smevolution, losers.  

Early on, before monetizing them completely, Bugliosi might've believed the Family would someday get out of prison. I noticed a similar statement attributed to Stephen Kay but didn't pick up on any of that sentiment when reading these transcripts. 


A longtime television aficionado, I often group everything into seasons in my mind. Casts included. Weird, but effective. Back in college, I discovered I could remember almost everything from lectures if I pretended the class was a tv show. Everyone has their memory tricks I suppose. 

This season kicks off with a bang. With his career in shambles after using a jailhouse confession to free an inmate who then went out and did horrible things, exiled Stephen Kay arrives from his Backwater punishment posting somewhat (but not really) unannounced in Episode One. Lemme tell ya, Kay ain't tryin to help Pat breathe fresh ocean air down at the Santa Monica pier. 

Krenwinkel's attorney S. Dana Gilbert is the first of Krenwinkel's lawyers on this journey who will point out that something is wrong or certain rules aren't being followed etc. The Board never cares. 

They're like dude, c'mon. She bent a knife on someone's collarbone. Let's keep it moving so we can avoid some of rush hour on our way home. 

Down the road, they stop apologizing. Reporters, cameras, lights. Sit there and shut your trap. Baby, you're a star. 

Stephen Kay is the only representative of the People at this hearing. He claims Pat carved "WAR" into Leno's stomach. She replies she did not. He says she admitted she did back in the penalty phase of her trial. 

Overall, without a prior hearing for comparison, this one is pretty tame. The Board gets their backstory and Pat's life post-sentencing. How can they be sure she won't join another apocalyptic cult if they let her go? Similar questions. Pat's crimes are eight years old. Outside of Kay's passion, the events of August 1969 seem like they took place decades earlier.  


Stephen Kay is back representing the People. Wendy Park is now Krenwinkel's attorney. The media has arrived. Attorney Park says, "Under rule number something point whatever, you're not allowed to have the media here and broadcast and turn on the lights and..." other exhausting things to type when you know the ending. 

Confused, the Board members glance at one another. The senior member mumbles, "What happened to the last guy? Do we have to break in a new attorney every time?" 

Park also tries to have Kay tossed out, like attorney Gilbert a decade earlier, because she wasn't given thirty days advance notice of Kay's participation in the hearing. If only documents had existed where potential surprises might've been identified ahead of time. 

No dice. Kay remains. The score moves to 2-0 in his favor. 

Attorney Park fights the good fight but her best efforts fail. The Board deliberates for all of forty-five minutes before sending Krenwinkel back to her room. This excellent post from 2015 goes much deeper into detail on the backstories of Pat and her co-defendants if you'd like to learn more or refresh.

AP News story covering Pat's 1988 hearing. 


July 7 
Now we're cookin with gas. Stephen Kay is back again. Deb Tate and representatives from the victims' families are there forevermore or until Krenwinkel's death. Donald Bartell is Pat's attorney. Krenwinkel is five years older than Tate and looks one hundred percent healthier. 

Physical fitness is not enough. Pat is torpedo'd before she leaves port. Presiding Commissioner Al Angele cites a recent psychological evaluation in the decision to deny parole. 

"'Psychological evaluation dated 3/30/04 by Peter Hu, H-U, was not supportive of release. The Doctor states an excessive dangerousness." 

Inmate is a 56-year-old Caucasian female who indicated that she had been brainwashed by Charles Manson and who in essence had ultimate control of her actions. She stated that despite her moral (sic) fear that she'd be killed by Mr. Manson, she was still unable to accomplish instructions he gave her regarding killing the victims. Although she has not done (indiscernible) dangerous within the past interval, I have some concerns with respect to utility for parole. She has yet to demonstrate an insight regarding her actions, she has yet to demonstrate remorse or regret for her actions and has not been able to recognize the loss of the victims' families suffered over the years. It is my opinion that she has maintained an habitual pattern of (indiscernible) and severity of the crime by acknowledging in a subtle manner that it was Mr. Manson who was ultimately responsible for the commission of these crimes. There is no current evidence of cult behavior or predatory type of like relationships that she had in the past and believe that her violence potential outside a controlled setting is less than the persons (indiscernible) innocent offense. I do believe her willingness to adhere to the rules and regulations of society and her years of maturity have caused the risk factor to decrease.

Stephen Kay Piles on: 

Deb Tate and the Next-of-Kin's do their jobs and it's see ya in 2011. 


This year, the show runners opened up the checkbook and brought in an all-star cast. Stephen Kay is back. Deb Tate reprises her role. Linda Deutsch. Reed Saxon. Patrick freakin Sequeira. 

Keith Wattley is Pat's attorney. The hearing opens in a familiar way. You're exploiting my client... 

Don't ever kill anyone. They'll turn you into a zoo animal for the rest of your life if you do something witchy enough. Mixups happened back at Parole HQ. Someone forgot to mention the hearing to the LaBianca family members. Deb Tate almost didn't get past the gate. 


Deb Tate has a letter she says is from the LaBianca family. The Board is like is it okay with you if we read it? Wattley goes wtf I object. They say lol. 

Even if you skim this hearing, you should read Deb Tate's soliloquy at the end. Pure magic. Here's a big reveal in case you're unaware. 

Thank God she was smart enough to avoid the evil trap so many others fell into headfirst. Tate also has clinical hot takes on 12 Step Programs and other fields. I think she's probably some type of doctor. Two doctors maybe. In no way is she squeezing nickels from an old woman's dusty atrocities. 

We're left with a seven year cliffhanger. Krenwinkel is denied parole this time for not caring enough or not showing enough emotion when she groveled at the feet of superior minds. Something like that. The story kinda falls apart when Tate steals the show.  


Donna Lebowitz replaces Stephen Kay. Nga Lam is now Deputy Commissioner. Pat and Wattley are not ready for Judge Lam. No one is. Lam makes Sequeria look like a Manson apologist. 

New storyline this season. The 1980's had their Satanic Panic back when people were primitive rubes. We won't get fooled again. Now it's all about the kids. We gotta save the children. 

By 2016, America is fired up about child trafficking. Roman Polanski dated fifteen year old Nastassja Kinski in 1976 and no one said a word. Two years later, Katie was denied parole because the Board wasn't convinced she would not join a new cult. The young loves weren't given a thought. 

Today, Polanski has problems flying certain places because of his proclivities. 

Times change. 

Child trafficking is now also Patricia Krenwinkel's problem. She should've stopped Charlie or smuggled the little runaways across the Alps to escape the Germans. Anything. But her cruel heart is just too black. 

That was from a victim's family member. Again, this is the first we're hearing of sex with twelve year olds. 

Pat Krenwinkel is now a pervert. Lam tears at her flesh with his double row of razor teeth. Deb Tate tries to ensure no one forgets she's onstage but it's too late. We're already on IG, Twitter, and Facebook demanding more lines and scenes for Judge Lam. It's time to cycle Tate out. 

She's kaput.

Somebody call Bree Ford. 

"Psychologically speaking." I bet Bree Ford is never lazy with her adverbs. 

Anyway, they adjourn and say we'll be back in half a year. 

When they reconvene in June, Pat is shelved until 2022. Deb Tate closes it out with personal anecdotes. For example, Dr. Drew (her close personal friend) wanted to attend the hearing but could not. Other secrets are revealed in the word salad below.  

Everyone in that house were personal, very close friends, long-time friends of mine. I have in my hand a letter from Barbara Hoyt, just in case you folks only got a summary of the interview that she gave to the department of parole boards investigator, and, uh, then after that, there's some other things I would like to address. For me, personally, prior to me reading this letter, I would like to state that in doing tons of research and plus having a lot of personal friends, one being Dr. Drew Pinsky, who was very active in getting this law passed in the first place, it's clearly a division the way it has been interpreted today for this case between the medical definition and the way that it has been basically, excuse my French, bastardized for the purpose of this hearing. Drew was willing to come with me, but, um, we'll address that another day. Okay, here goes the letter: To whom it may concern, my name is Barbara Hoyt. I lived with the Manson family for f -- six months during spring through fall of 1969. I didn't interact with Katie, who's -- that was Ms. Krenwinkel -- very much, but during the time I was there, I never saw Charlie hit or beat her. I did see him hit Diane Lake often and Bo Rosenberg once. Diane Lake seemed to be his out -- outlet person. Charlie and his followers were certainly abusive to their victims. I have never seen Sadie, Katie or Leslie hit even once. Charlie never hit, and Charlie never hit her. We were all free to come and go at will. Charlie would try to talk the girls out of it by making love to them, and she provides an example, as in with Gypsy, or try to talk them out of leaving. He was very charming. The girls could be sexually partnered with each other or with any of the men. I heard that Katie would not have sex with anybody but Charlie because she thought she was ugly, which you are not ugly. If you think these killers are rehabilitated, think again. Katie went out to the LaBianca home, and without any hesitation, went to the kitchen drawer, took out the biggest knife and took Ms. LaBianca into the bedroom to kill her. She then repeatedly stabbed Mr. LaBianca s -- uh, several times in the stomach with a carving fork and then wrote messages in blood on the walls and refrigerator for the victims' family to find later. Katie cried, saying to the prosecutor and victims' next of kin, I know you want me dead. Not one of us have ever wished death on any of these killers. However, the killers did wish death on our family members, and I'm sure, in my case, since I get repeated death threats, they most certainly want to see me gone. 



LSD seemed harmless. 

And a blanket made from hair. 

Tidbits from my Chuck Older research. See you next week. +ggw 


Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

There is an OJ Simpson Case
People-Connection to an attorney who represented Patricia Krenwinkel in some of Ms Krenwinkel's parole hearings.
My only comment on this blog-post
"Wendy Putnam Park was
Patricia Krenwinkel's attorney at several of Ms Krenwinkel's parole hearings.
Small world this is at times. You know who Wendy Putnam Park's son is? ALLAN PARK, the Limousine Driver who took OJ Simpson to LAX the night of June 12th, 1994"

Mario George Nitrini 111
The OJ Simpson Case

orwhut said...

Debra Tate should know that in the fifties and sixties, it was a rare kid who wasn't hit by one or both parents and sometimes by the parents down the street.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Hi, Mario. What a small world! Kinda mind blowing.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

whut - I removed a lot of my thoughts on Ms. Tate's "testimony" at Krenwinkel's hearings because I did not want to spend the week arguing in the comments section below the post. She's like the opinions of the Internet in human flesh.

orwhut said...

That was a smart move, Greene. I cut my comment short for the same reason.

D. said...

Charlie raped 12 year olds? What is the source of that? Isn't it funny the inmate is forces to accept and stick to the record and so-called "facts", but Debra Tate and previously Stephen Kay could just spew trash out of her mouth?

It's peculiar she would add that to her arsenal. Maybe she's think of her ex-brother in law. Somebody should send Pat's lawyer a picture of her and Arnie in the pool with a topless underage Natasha Kinski. Just pull out a print out of it during the hearing and ask her about it.

Doug said...

Van Houten's father was definitely NOT a fan of Stephen Kay either...

I kinda buy what he's sellin here a lot more than what Kay has regurgitated ad nauseum throughout the years

Dan S said...

He would test all the new talent and i could see there being a 12 year old there.

What about the veracity of SA and other mansonoids sucking off babies and toddlers? Reminds me of herbert mullin complaining that his mom DIDN'T blow him

tobiasragg said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tobiasragg said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
G. Greene-Whyte said...

If only some of those babies were still alive and could say yea or nay on the bj's.

Matthew said...

Some of those babies are still alive, in fact, maybe all of them. We know for sure that Mary and Sandy's are and great possibility that so is Zezozose Zadfrack Glutz(now Paul)

tobiasragg said...

Great piece, thank you for this! However, I must point out there there were SO many amazing tidbits over the years that have been left out, they bear sharing here. Sometimes with these transcripts, it is informative to marry the sometimes-dry transcript consumption with available video out there - and in Big Patty's case, there is video a'plenty! Off the top of my head:

-An incredible detail emerged during her late-70s hearing. It came from the same psychologist cited here in this post. During one of his suitability sessions with Hairy Patty, she actually sniffed that Abigail Folger "should have done more with her life" and that she had frittered far too much time and energy on being a drug user. This coming from an unrepentant murderess who for decades has placed LSD right up there on the blame-game scale with the Son of Man. Talk about a lack of impact awareness!

-One of the hearings circa late 80's-early 90's is worthy of a dedicated post in and of itself. The Court TV phenom was nearing its height, and they treated the Krenny parole hearing as a Superbowl event. All of the players sit for on-camera interviews, which are used to punctuate and inform the proceedings. Kay, Tate, whoever the defense atty was at the moment, and Krenwinkel herself. If the reader has not yet watched this episode, stop reading immediately and click over to YouTube, it is utterly fascinating and quite entertaining! Here we have Ms. Krenwinkel doing her best to describe the Latin origins of the term "rehabilitation" and asking us compelling questions like "do we believe in second chances?" You can practically taste Krenny's confidence in her chances at freedom during this period, and she plays to the cameras almost as well as Charlie always did.

-The next hearing? Krenwinkel apparently shed her TV star aspirations, she walked out in disgust because cameras were present. That hearing was conducted without her.

-How can any piece of this sort leave Krenwinkel's public breakdown unmentioned? The woman breaks down in front of Tate and Kay and the cameras trained on her aging face, she completely melts down over having had to "deal ... with ... this ... as ... best ... I ... can!" in between chest-heave sobs.

-Also completely omitted is the over-arching story of the Manson Girl relationships behind bars. It is a decades-long tale that is sprinkled in throughout these hearings. The three lived all together in a little cottage type of structure early on, which must have been uncomfortable because Van Houten and Krenwinkel turned their backs on Sexy Sadie and her big mouth, which got them all into this mess to begin with. Those relationships were never repaired. Much more recently, Krenwinkel and Van Houten had a falling out over "different views about our shared past" that was discussed with the parole board. The Commissioner has questions, the two were besties for decades after all, but Pat reveals little other than to observe that they are forced to be together at times because they both participate in some of the same prison programs, and that - when they ARE forced to be together - "we are polite."

-The NYT "Life After Manson" doc was a major topic of discussion at one hearing, with both the State and the victim families pushing hard to discover exactly how much money Krenwinkel earned from that latest appeal to the public. Pat's answer? "Not a cent."

tobiasragg said...

-Yes, large Pat has always worked the angles and tried every trick available to spring herself. As the author notes, child molestation was the central topic of one hearing, but how can one ignore the abuse defense in the most latest attempt? California had recently passed a law that victims of domestic abuse could use said abuse as a defense in why their crimes were committed in the first place. This entire hearing revolved around this question and, as this piece notes, the proceedings were paused so that further investigation could be done. In Part II of this hearing, we learn that several former Family members were interviewed and provided documentation of abuse they suffered or witnessed by Charlie's hand. Even Manson himself was called to sit for an interview on the matter, but as the Commissioner notes, old Charlie refused to leave his cell to talk about his use of the pimp hand. Rather hilariously, one of the board members finally realizes "er - this whole domestic abuse law was meant to address abused domestic partners who went on to kill their abusers. I'm feeling pretty sure that doesn't actually apply in this case." Your tax dollars at work, California citizens.

-Also ignored was one of the more fascinating aspects of Krenwinkel's parole hearing journey, her ever-changing story of those nights of murder. If one has interest, go back and read the latter third of this last hearing. Pat is claiming here that she had zero idea what they were setting off to do when the car pulled out of Spahn on 8 August. It wasn't until Steve Parent was shot that she began to register "oh, this is different" but she STILL claimed that she had no idea what was about to happen as the four continued up the driveway toward the house. To hear Krenny tell the story five years ago, even AFTER they had rounded up the victims, she had no thought of killing anyone. It wasn't until Tex ordered her to kill that she actually raised her knife - because Charlie-the-domestic-abuser had ordered her to do whatever Tex said. The Commissioner seemed to have a very, very long laugh over this one. In his summation, he explains that it was her refusal to admit to the truth that had long been on record (the discussion in the auto prior to arriving at Cielo - something that Krenny herself had shared in the past) that played a big part in this most recent denial. In his concluding remarks, he suggests that Patricia go back to her bunk and think very, very long and hard about exactly how truthful she wants to be her next hearing.

. . . And this is part of what makes this upcoming hearing so fascinating. Will Patricia Krenwinkel finally, for the first time in her life, cast LSD and Man's Son and Tex's orders and the body hair and all of the other excuses aside and at long last just take responsibility for what she did? Van Houten has done this and it got her all the way to the Governor's desk. Is Pat not paying attention?

This next one is going to be fun, methinks:D

David Lane said...

They should have all fried; however, because the legal system loves to create mystery, confusion and a pay cheque the pantomime continues. I’ve never been in a position to have to be confronted by a parole board but I get the feeling the scenario would be something like:

Board member : So Convict 123xxx, if you were to be released and leave this institution who would you be reliant on in society to help you ?

Convict 123xxx : I have many friends, family and contacts that would be willing to help me assimilate.

Board member : I feel that you would be in contact with many undesirables again and find yourself in a group that would lead you astray. Parole DENIED.


Board member : So Miss Naughty Convict, if you were to be released and leave this institution who would you be reliant on in society to help you ?

Convict 123xxx : I have a small number of family that would be willing to help me assimilate.

Board member : I feel that you would not have enough help from immediate family members and find yourself in contact with many undesirables that would lead you astray. Parole DENIED.

My other thoughts are on this pointless exercise:

1. Knowing someone is ‘sleeping’ with 12 and 13 year olds when you are 18 is completely different to be confronted by that when you are in your 60’s.

2. Ive heard it quoted that ‘a leopard never changes its spots’. Clearly not the case in Krenwinkel and LVH’s case as I understand they have unblemished prison records. I wonder how many prisoners have been granted parole that have poor prison records?

3. My view on the last parole of LVH was, what qualifications does the governor have that makes him more of an expert than the parole board. Another poster replied that his qualification was that he was voted in by the public. I‘m as far removed from being impacted by this case than many others, thus I have nothing to gain or lose but for the life of me all I see here is a political saga.

I’ve walked out on many scenarios in my past if I don’t agree with something, if I was on the parole board in the US I’d tell them where to stuff the role. Or perhaps there are some wonderful not to be missed biscuits and tea provided at the event.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Tobias - I'm looking forward to Krennie's 2022 hearing just to see what she's now guilty of now that she was not before - ie - allowing or not stopping sex with minors. I wonder if Judge Lam is still in the mix? He'd be at the end of his second, three year appointment.

There was just too much to fit into this post. Thank you for filling the rest in.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Hi, David. They always have a recess for lunch when the hearing starts early. Maybe it's like a scene at the Bennett's. Pat is Lizzie, Deb Tate is Caroline Bingley except larger, etc.

I agree about the gov. And also think the Board falls into that category. They rotate out every three years. A new board member could arrive for their first year, read the file, and tell the inmate sorry I just don't see you've progressed or jumped thru this or that hoop smiling kindly enough times or whatever it is they need at the moment. Look at all the reasons they gave Krenwinkel over the years. They zig, she makes sure to zig. They come back and zag, she zags. Still no. Over and over.

tobiasragg said...

Yeah Green, but that's the problem - Krenwinkel has never really managed to "zag." In fact her performance in hearings has become almost as bad as Watson in recent years.

Look, I'm no expert and I am certainly no parole board member (thank god - can you imagine?) but LVH at least says "yeah, so I was enthralled with Manson and I was doing lots of drugs and there was lots of "same-y" happening within this group, but ultimately I made the decision to do what I did and I stand up and take responsibility for that."

It doesn't wash away the crime, but at least she's had the guts to acknowledge the influences without leaning on them as an excuse. I think this is largely due to her parent who, while compassionate and loving, never failed to cut her early self-pity short and remind her that "you got yourself into this situation, you're going to have to find ways to exist well in it."

Pat's parents, like Watson's parents, were different. Coddling, babying, indulgent. Never once has Krenwinkel simply "manned up" so to speak and truly taken ownership over her actions all of those years ago. She says some of the words and she claims remorse, but hers seems much more an adopted or learned posture rather than something that springs organically from her. Maybe LVH is simply a better actress than PK, or perhaps Leslie is simply better at faking it - but I really don't think so.

There ARE reasons that LVH is sent to the Governor's desk annually while Krenwinkel continues to get five year denials. I honestly do not think this is a board problem - it is very much a Krenwinkel problem.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

I take your point for sure, Tobias. I meant kind over-archingly. Blogger doesn't think that's a word btw but I'm like if Charles Barkley can add words to the lexicon so can I amirite?

I don't watch the news because of the reasons people who don't watch the news skip the news channels. But when I was watching the NFC game last week, they showed some hashtag ad where fools can send their money to people supposedly keeping the supposedly millions of kids who are supposedly being trafficked from being trafficked. That scare tactic has been operating for several years in darker corners of the web, but is super mainstream now. I was mostly pointing out that we think society was a bunch of morons for falling for the Satanic Panic in the 80's but now we're all right on board with saving the children nineteen different ways.

Rabble rousing 2022.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

"kind of" over-archingly. I am the typo king.

CarolMR said...

That's a lovely picture of Pat.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Thanks, Carol. I always try to find photos I haven't seen before. The Hoyt photo I'm confident I have not. The one of Krenwinkel, I think I have maybe.

Kathy said...

If I recall correctly, at one parole hearing they asked her who her actions hurt the most and she said herself.

Let her rot. Longer.

grimtraveller said...

Kathy said:

If I recall correctly, at one parole hearing they asked her who her actions hurt the most and she said herself

While I agree that it was not well timed, was kind of insensitive, and maybe should have been said 7 or 8 years into her parole, when she was writing her autobiography, if we can stop for a moment and look hard at what she was saying and where she was coming from, then she has a point.
The friends and family members of those that were murdered have a choice that is not open to her. They don't have to be destroyed by what happened. they are in a position to rise above it and show a murderer that they can't destroy their life by their heinous actions.
The victims are dead. They are not even part of the equation, as insane as that sounds.
The parents of the murderers also have a choice.
Pat helped end 7 lives. But the question asked of her had a future and continuous dimension. In that regard, the person she most hurt is herself. That doesn't mean that she didn't hurt other people. She ended lives, but in the process, wasted and rendered useless, her own.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Somewhat off topic...

Grim, I notice in the LaBianca homicide reports that Leno was not a fan of his brother-in-law and partner, Mr. Smaldino. I actually wanted to email you about this but cannot figure out how to make my Outlook account work more than 5% of the time. If you drop a throwaway account in here, or send your email to Matt, I will get in touch.

Today, we have nephew Smaldino testifying against the killers at parole hearings-- right up through last year, and saying everyone is still terrified of the Manson gang. Fifteen times Louis Smaldino has gone before the board. His father's buyout is cited as a major reason why the company struggled aftward. Of course, Leno's gambling addiction drove the whole situation.

But now Smaldino gets to be an expert on public opinion and rant like Fox News even though we have clear evidence Leno did not want Smaldino's father around. And I'm sure he'll be back in June if he's healthy.

No one is scared of Pat and Leslie. They are at an age where a bad fall could kill them. I think it's acceptable for her to say she ruined her own life. She totally did.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Sorry, the last part was to Kathy.