- The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader, and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
- Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
- Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, or debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
- The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (e.g., members must get permission to date, change jobs, or marry or leaders prescribe what to wear, where to live, whether to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
- The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and its members (e.g., the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avataror the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
- The group has a polarized, us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society
- The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders, or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
- The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (e.g., lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
- The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and control members. Often this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
- Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
- The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
- The group is preoccupied with making money.
- Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
- Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
Sound familiar, ladies & gentlemen?
who are the two girls on the right in the top photo?
That could describe society as a whole. By these standards, every major religion and political party is a cult. Every family is a cult, every race is a cult and every branch of military.
On the surface it might all be very convincing, but when one considers the political climate of the 1960's, they're not much different from any other group of kids.
Why are the Black Panthers not considered a cult? Why are they a political organization. Their leader who is still hailed as a hero by many was proven to have physically killed himself and the Panthers were talking about offing pigs openly too and I am certain they killed more than the Family did.
Some pix I hadn't seen before, thanks Ann! Ditto for Hump's question.
I'll third Hump's question.
I agree D.Cal. By those standards the White House is a cult.
When we compare that list to the Family, how much are we just assuming there is correspondence because we've decided that they were a cult and must therefore have behaved like one? How do I know that I know how many of those things were true of the Family?
Yes, it's the Love and Terror Cult. Boo!
Matt said... I'll third Hump's question.
This reminds me of the time a pretty new girl turned up in 4th grade. Most of us boys wanted to know who she was whether we would admit it or not.
I'll stand by Ann on this one. I don't think these standards for cult can remotely describe the White House or society in general. And I don't think it's accurate to say group at Spahn was anything like most other groups of kids in the 60s. The Black Panthers I don't know enough about to say whether they would be a cult or not. North Korea is probably a society one could fairly say is a cult from what I've heard of it.
YES The word CULT can apply to almost ANY group of like-minded people.
BUT add the word "powerful" to CULT and see if that doesn't narrow it down a bit.
Many years ago I was watching a documentary on South America and it brought out the fact that in most every city, town, village, hamlet, etc. there was a catholic "church" - with an "alter" decorated with GOLD.
AND of course, the program made special mention of the "poverty" the people lived in. Like even today, there is so much poverty in South America that, by the millions, the people are escaping to the land of plenty (America.) So WHAT keeps the poverty-stricken people from just walking into the churches and reclaiming THEIR gold ?
That's NOT just any old CULT, but possibly the most "powerful" organization in the world. Where not even the drug cartels / gangs, governments, mafia or NON-members will touch those scared "alters."
Hey George, I wonder if the Family used that 'boo!' gag when they pulled out their knives and started stabbing women to death! What a hoot.
Murderers, yes. A cult, NIMHO.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CHARLE BROWN...I MEAN, MANSON
George, like I said above, those of us who come to the case from the outside arrive with certain pre-programmed assumptions, and if I'm honest I have no idea whether or to what extent they fit the 'cult' description. Before I started coming to this site I'd have made that assumption, now I question it.
But it sure is a sexy word! We all love the cult idea. As soon as we see the word 'cult' there' a good chance we'll be treated to young ladies with long hair and naked titties, giggling like naked idiots and taking naked drugs naked in the California sunshine.
I'm going to stick with the sexy version - naked cult girls brainwashed into race-war-instigating murders more bizarre than anything in American history by an evil genius Nazi-loving brainwashing ex-con wannabe pop-star. I don't think it's the truth, but it's the fun version, George, and life is very short.
"I'm going to stick with the sexy version - naked cult girls brainwashed into race-war-instigating murders more bizarre than anything in American history by an evil genius Nazi-loving brainwashing ex-con wannabe pop-star."
Hey, go for it!
One thing I found interesting about Leslie Van Houten's taped interview with Marvin Part, is that she said something to the effect that the government doesn't like when a group of people get together. That was years before Jonestown and Waco. How did she know that?
People associate cults with herd mentality, brain washing, etc. and that scares people (even though 9 out of 10 people are fearful they wouldn't fit in to the status quo). But how many people are actual using their own brain today? Say something against the pecking order or something outside what is considered conventional wisdom and watch the backlash from countless thousands who all look, think and behave alike. As opposed to the few who agree with you and the herd mentality that exists in society is of even a lower common denominator than the Family. People get their views on life from people who are paid to sell opinions or from their mom who just taught them to believe in some ancient religion that somebody carved in stoned and is still causing bloody wars in which people are being blown apart and beheaded.
OMG Just opened today's local paper and it mentions in "TODAY in HISTORY" "1969 News of the My Lai Massacre in South Vietnam in March 1968 was broken by investigative reporter Seymour Hersh."
Dear Mr. Hersh: IF, in 1969, you were AWARE of the word "CULT" and just how SEXY it sounds - your name today could be UP there with Vincent Bugliosi. MAN oh MAN, just imagine those soldiers ripping the tops off the women as they screamed and their body's shook twerked with fear. Can't you just hear the captain shouting " Hurry-up, get the ring-ding zip-zappers. It's orgy time ! "
OR - if the Manson Family KNEW how to act like REAL Cultists, I could be a ga-zillion-trilionaire by NOW
Robert Hendrickson said...
"..I could be a ga-zillion-trilionaire by NOW"
If you did become a ga-zillion-trillionaire, would you spend all your fortune on booze, sex and gambling, or would you just waste it:)
mhn; i guess that is perhaps a male-man thing about long-haired, topless girls, and the word ,cult as being a sexy word (im not sure how words can be sexual or non-sexual)?
My Lai Massacre. When the LEADER of the country of useless followers who voted him into power pampered the ass of a sadistic mass murderer who joyfully had the top of infants heads blown off as their screaming mothers clutched them and people who expressed outrage were beaten with sticks or in the case of Kent State, shot down. Or in the case of one, wounded with a Bayonet.
The murders could be seen a political act. It's like "OK, we try with peace, love and understanding and it got us nowhere. SO OK, maybe you were right. Maybe killing and war IS the answer, so we'll handle our problems the same way you tell us we should handle yours". But that concept goes right over peoples heads, because they're more into cheap thrills and secretly getting their rocks off thinking about having a harem of "slavishly obedient" young women. The corner antics of the girls were simply giving the public EXACTLY what they wanted to sell papers. I guess in their minds, they were using the media to get their points across, but were used by people who used this case for some escapism from their mundane lives.
Wow. They are holding up the Vest. I paid a fuckton of cash for Bobby's vest 12 years ago. It looks almost the same except it wasn't finished. Nice to see it as a work in progress.
col this pic looks like the eagle patch kitty was working on and later was added as in inside layer to charlies vest?
as shown in manson ,,could be wrong stimson or rh prollt knows for sure
col this pic looks like the eagle patch kitty was working on and later was added as in inside layer to charlies vest?
i recall seeing tv footage and brenda i think said kitty is working on this,the eagle patch, in movie manson the girls showed cm vest with inner layers includ a large eagle,,ive never seen bobbys vest ,,,,
the one commonality has been atwa , so why knock off sharon et al if this all came down to a revolution on pollution exxon, the epa and dept of nat resources, among other agencies would have been more effective if in turn atwa was the principal motive
Isnt the girl sitting next to Kitty Lutesinger, the one wearing the white robe ? ? ?
In the last foto from THIS post I mean. Next to Kitty
Hellz Bellz I've never seen that girl in the white robe either, but she looks a little different to me. Straight hair, more of a model's type face perhaps.
Candy: "mhn; i guess that is perhaps a male-man thing about long-haired, topless girls"
That's so heteronormative Candy!
"and the word ,cult as being a sexy word (im not sure how words can be sexual or non-sexual)?"
You're not sure how certain words can acquire baggage, associations and images beyond their literal meaning? There's a reason why society thinks of the girls and not of Tex or Clem when it hears the words "Manson Family". I don't say that's OK, just that it happens. I guess words wouldn't be sexual or non sexual if we were robots who lived in a sterilised vacuum.
Personally I do consider Manson to have made use of his jail-time self-improvement with Scientology and How To Make Friends and Influence People course, but there is a bit too much coming and going for it to be a bona fide cult.
Tex, Atkins and Davis weren't always there. Watkins and Poston went off-message as soon as they were out of range. Then, is it Juanita? who wasn't there for long but hands over the $10,000. Beausoleil always maintains he was an associate, which I guess could also be said of DeCarlo.
The recent update on CieloDrive regarding Watson defence testimony is of interest (as always). In it the witness replies that upon asking Watson about the girls, his answer is that they are all one and that he may as well ask how Watson is, because there is no separation between them. So that does suggest there was an aspect of 'different living' going on up at the ranch, which could be described as cult-like.
The Black Panthers, right from the get-go had a 10 point manifesto, this suggests they were a political organisation rather than a cult. They also had a newspaper.
Is that a catapult on Chuck Lovett's head or is it a swastika?
EQ: Last night I got the biggest SMILE at your comment and then I discovered an email that put the iceing on the cake. Maybe life is just that simple.
Not sure how folks will handle this: BUT when I was growing up, the "Mafia" was the big BAD evil monster that EVERYONE feared. Then the Vietnam WAR came along and EVERY young kid FEARED dying in the jungle swamps of Vietnam.
So WE were engulfed in FEAR - from cradle to grave - UNTIL the "CULT" came along and began to destroy the "fears" so programed into our little virgin brains.
For US (the FEARFUL) the image of the Mafia was first on the HIT list, when MANSON slayed the "connected" Leno LaBianca. NEVER before had ANY man dared to even fuck with such a man. AND if the HIT was actually commanded by the mafia itself, the executioner PROVED to be a greater monster than even the "mob" could imagine.
Thus, a "legend" was born - one that helped the "fearful" young overcome THEIR worst nightmares.
BUT the "legend" now - only rests on a shelf, fermenting.
christopher Butche said: Watkins and Poston went off-message as soon as they were out of range
Watkins was resistant to Crockett for a while and went back and forth with the Family.
Brooks needed a bunch of deprogramming from his state of waiting to die to where his mind could be free of the Manson influence.
A cult can have degrees of control over people. It's not either/or IMO.
Watkins later became an anti-cult spokesman based on his experiences.
Butche said: Tex, Atkins and Davis weren't always there.
True, but the group had a continuing pull on them-they wanted to return-and the degree of freedom can also be thought of as the pull Manson knew he had over them that they could come and go, and that they weren't a more extreme version of a cult where no one can leave.
In her Grand Jury testimony Atkins made it clear she was still very much Charlie's girl but still said he programmed them.
People who came in contact with the Charlie and the girls in 67-69 often described Charlie as interesting but the girls as not-interesting because they were so out-of-it in their devotion only to Charlie. I'm particularly thinking of the black woman whose interview was featured in the last year of this blog who was with her white husband and spent some time with them in Echo(?) Park.
Where did you find these? I haven't seen some of them before?
they were illegally taken from Getty Images
lol....cult are you kiddin me ...dont disrespect REAL CULT LEADERS like the master jim jones (greatest cult leader of all time)...the manson family where homeless,jobless stoners who lived anywhere they wanted ...at times they wherent very smart,they made bad decisions.. pimping was the best thing manson could do ...GREATEST PIMP EVER,but cult leader ''NO'' ..he was charismatic and could sing, could have been a great actor with all the emotions he could express...
if he was a leader he was a leader of himself not a family ...
Looking at the Getty Images with Cappy, Sandy and Kitty, there must have been a lot of guys watching these photos in the media coverage thinking 'yes, I would' whether these girls were part of a 'cult' or not:)
EquinoX-12314 Then for me it would be Cappy & Sandy..... Sorry ,cause Kitty has not such a ,Pretty, face.
And about the Girl next to Kitty, is there nobody here who knows her Name ? ?. And the girl in the black&white striped Robe, there was a Topic on her a while back. We came to the conclusion it was NOT DeeDee Lansbury, but no one ever came up with who she is. Maybe Robert Hendrickson did see her while shootin film
Give it up. We want the girl's name and phone number. Pretty please...
Well George Stimson you asked Sandy a question for someone recently can you ask her if she knows the unidentified girls in the photos-the two on the right in first photo?
Stoner, there are all types of cults and degrees of intensity to them. Just because the Spahn Ranch kids didn't fit into one type of mold doesn't mean they didn't have some or most of the dynamics described in this posting.
She doesn't know them.
OVER a hundred people died last night in Paris, France at the hands of MUSLIMS and right now on YAHOO the name Charles Manson is trending at # 1
BTW: Many young people (strangers) stopped and visited with the Girls on the Courhouse Corner.
Thanks George, Sandy and Robert. That's very interesting. Could Manson be trending #1 because of his birthday?
Is that a catapult on Chuck Lovett's head or is it a swastika?
LOL...or is it an oil derrick?
A couple intersting photos I saw looking around were Lorraine Newman and Jane Curtain dressed in nunnery with swastika'd forheads...pretty hilarious looking...I don't remember that sketch.
Also a shot of Cappy, Sandy, Ruth and one or two others holding a sign at the courthouse that said something like "a snitch in time saves nine" and Cappy has
a mock oooo-eeee-oooo look.
Oh Ziggy said the catapult remark
Dag bab it. Neither Sandy nor Robert have a lead on the girl. I wanted to see how she turned out as a grandma.
Robert Hendrickson said...
"...Many young people (strangers) stopped and visited with the Girls on the Courhouse Corner."
Hi Mr H,
Yes, that's understandable. I hope not too many people were abusive to these young girls, because they were idealists and dreamers who held their principles close to their hearts. It took a lot of guts for them to stay at the Courthouse Corner for as long as they did.
@Mr. Humphrat - I think you nailed it with the Chuck Lovett oil derrick-swastika comment. lol. That's exactly what it looks like.
Regarding "the girls out-of-it in their devotion only to Charlie", it reminds me of what Neil Young about how the girls only saw Charlie. I also wonder if Neil knew Cappy beforehand, her being a Buffalo Springfield groupie, and what if anything that had to do with him meeting Manson. Just something that I'm curious about.
The girl in the picture sitting next to Kitty looks pretty young. I was thinking maybe it was her sister. Just guessing, though. There seems to be some similarities between the girls in appearance - hair, clothes, shoes. Maybe Kitty had to babysit her that day?
Hey Robert, is the person who wrote "Devil's Dropout" a real person? A lot of what is in that book sounds like it was based on things read in the paper and seen in the Manson documentary and she places herself with the group at around the time you were filming, I believe. Yet there is no mention anywhere of any film being made.
Ziggy I hadn't thought about Cappy being a groupie who might have known Neil Young. That is an interesting thought too.
Regarding the girl maybe being Kitty's sister there was a posting a while back that I think showed Kitty with some or all of her family I think and someone said her mom was hot etc.
Some people in girl on the corner photos could have been the Christians who tried to change them.
I think the girls on the corner and the courtroom antics could be a good movie, especially with the day of the crawl up Sunset Blvd! Of course they'd probably have to throw in some fake characters and things that never happened to attract a wider audience.
Oh my God that post called Kitty throughout the Years was already two years ago?? WTF time is going too fast. There are pics with her family.
If her hair was shorter, I'd say the last girl on the right was Clem.
@Mr. Humphrat - One funny thing about the Neil Young-Manson connection, is that Charlie always seems to refer to him as "Neil Diamond" when he talks about him. lol. I don't doubt Charlie when he says that he wasn't a child of the sixties and he wasn't into that era of music. If he was, he'd probably not have a hard time differentiating between Diamond and Young.
Agree 100% on what you said about what would likely happen if they made a Manson Girls movie. The current Hollywood version of Manson (Aquarius) is so unlike Charlie and so full of made up, fake crap, that it's nothing more than pure fantasy. And a dull one at that. The real story is much more compelling.
I wish some of the faces weren't blurred on that "Kitty Throughout The Years" post. I remember when that album was wide open online (now it's private) and I never bothered to take a close look. And like you said, a lot of the people that we see in these pics and can't recognize were probably either very short term members or non-members who were just hanging out at the scene with the girls and ended up in a pic.
@orwhut - I was thinking that maybe it was Country Sue, but I'm not sure if she ever had any blonde streaks in her hair. It also looks like it could be a waifish type boy, possibly. Might also be the person who came down there with the person sitting next to Kitty. Maybe just a couple of kids who wanted to see what all the fuss was about and ended up hanging out and getting their picture taken with Cappy, Sandy and Kitty.
I've heard stories about tourists in L.A. who went down to the corner and took pictures of their kids with the "Manson Family" girls. What great mementoes those would be!
Ziggy- The last girl being Country Sue, could account for me confusing her with Clem. I've noticed before that she has broad shoulders for a girl.
THIS is a larger version of the original picture of the 4 girls. Cappy, Sandra and Kitty all have X's on their foreheads. The girl sitting next to Kitty might have one as well. It's hard to tell, but if you zoom in, it looks like an X might be there.
THIS is a larger picture of just the 2 girls.
The date on the Getty Images picture of the 4 girls is January 1st, 1971. However,
THIS picture of Cappy and Kitty appears to have been taken the same day, which was December 30th, 1970.
THIS picture of Sandra Good and Country Sue with an unidentified male was also taken on December 30th, 1970.
FACT: Every day, the Catholic Church feeds, clothes, shelters, and educates more people than any other organization in the world.
One out of five-six people in the US receive their medical care in a Catholic hospital
There are 263 Catholic institutions of higher education in the US which educate nearly a million students per year
Nearly 2 million US children (k-12) per year are educated in Catholic schools in the US
The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-governmental provider of health care services in the world - it has 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly & with special needs, & 5500 hospitals - 65% located in developing countries
The Catholic Church operates the largest non-governmental school system
The Church offers its educational services to the poor, or those who are deprived of family help - Vatican II decreed that Catholic social teaching demands we serve the populations most in need
* The Catholic Church is not a cult. Jesus Christ taught that it is the responsibility of followers to live a life of service - and the Church also leads a "life" of service, so to speak.
* Have the PEOPLE of the Church made mistakes and deviated from that path? Of course, we are human - thus we are imperfect and sinners. But in judging the value of the contribution the Church has (and continues to have) on the entire world, I think the statistics speak for themselves
thank you for outlining the help which the Catholic Church offers to those in need. As someone who was brought up as a Catholic, what I would like to say is that I got heartily browned off with the Catholic Church's obsession with people having sex outside of marriage which is why I have not set foot in a Catholic Church in decades. Particularly in view of the conduct of so many Catholic priests towards innocent victims. I prefer to concentrate on treating others in a Christianly manner on a daily basis (not as easy as you may think).
Thanks Ziggy for the larger photos and the other two. Of note is the two girls on the right both look to be sewing and wearing moccasins.
Thanks Tuesday for pointing out the positives of the Catholic Church.
Thanks equinox for giving me my new English phrase for the day: browned off :)
I saw Spotlight last night about the Boston Globe investigation of the
Church's cover-up of sexual abuse and highly recommend it. What an
I find it amazing how the traditional "media" can AVOID even mentioning the "hateful tension" between the French citizens and the Muslims living in Paris way BEFORE any of this present violence occurred. It's NOT un-like when the Watts riots occurred here in Los Angeles.
BUT we have a supposedly "educated" U.S. President and 98% of the population who actually THINK that ISIS is nothing more than a 2nd string bunch of clowns tripping around in the desert with converted TOYOTA pick-up trucks. Looook out - Helter Skelter ! It's Vietnam all over again.
For some reason, Country Sue has always given me the creeps. Right back from when I first read of her when I was 15. It's totally irrational, I know, I know, but she has and does. She's long reminded me of Bob Bradbury when he was in a 70s glam pop group called Hello and John Fean in his early Horslips days.
thanks ann havent seen the embroidery pics, whether you kiped them or not accord to the kernal pop id surmise they were in public domain ive found pics there also what is even more creepy is all these people going insane to find out who are the two underage girls next to kitty and col i tried to give u info on the eagle,phoenix patch kitty is holding col one thing i like about you is you say whatever the fuck you think
Orwhut it was Linda Baldwin aka Madeline Cottage who was on the bed with Zero when he committed suicide. The police report-
Country Sue was in the house, as were Cappy and Bruce, but she was not in the bedroom. It's hard to keep up with all the aliases!
hi Deb! hope all is well honey
Way Off Topic
I was working on an idea for an alternative history fiction novel:
Bugliosi instead of being the Deputy D.A. is still stuck as a Public Defender and gets assigned to defend Charlie. Vincent gets Charlie a separate trial and an acquittal, Vincent and Charlie become great friends, and Vincent becomes just as rich writing about the injustice of almost executing an innocent man.
ya it iss off topic its ok we have all went on mental detours here
@Mr. Humphrat - "Hey - new girl with the mocassins. Good job sewing. Ok, now try this. Take that needle and make an X on your forehead. It's fun. We all do it."
@Dawes - Runaways is a good call. The pants of the girl sitting next to Kitty look really dirty. Also, the hair of the other one looks like it hasn't been washed for a while. They probably weren't members, since Sandra said (through George) that she didn't recognize her. You're right, she wouldn't have likely had an X on her head.
@grimtraveller - I can relate to this, because I've never been able to see the appeal of Ruth Ann Moorehouse, mostly due to the fact that her facial features remind me of Steven Tyler.
@Fiddy 8 - In the Hollywood movie adaptation of your novel, Lotsapoppa dies. The black guy always dies first.
ziggy you truly have an eye for detail. that talent could probably be used for greater things then this
Hi Candy, I'm doing good! Hope all is well with you.
tx deb im embroidering nooses now
fiddy 8 I think that's not a bad idea of alternative history!
Anyway it is interesting food for thought and maybe he could
have done it.
The entire idea is history is exactly the same except Bug is the defense attorney. I suppose that makes Kay the prosecuting attorney. I'm still trying to figure what Bug's motive would be for the inverse scenario.
PS. When I said "working on an idea", I meant for the two minutes before I posted.
"As someone who was brought up as a Catholic, what I would like to say is that I got heartily browned off with the Catholic Church's obsession with people having sex outside of marriage which is why I have not set foot in a Catholic Church in decades. Particularly in view of the conduct of so many Catholic priests towards innocent victims."
Same for me. And not just the attitude towards sex outside marriage - but attitudes to contraception, divorce, abortion, homosexuality, masturabation..... the list is endless.
The CC is a dinosaur - the only time I'm in a church now is if someone has died or worse again, is getting married :)
OK Matt I deleted it, don't ban me!
long-winded off-topic drivel, of course.
Oh, ok :D
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